politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Surely the reason LAB’s not pulling away in the polls is that

If you drain a tiny swamp, what do you have left?

SeanT said:

But it won't be delivered by Keir Starmer. lol. It's far too important to be left to him. Hard Brexit would be delivered by Corbyn, McDonnell, Milne et al, who want out of the EU and the SM because it would stop them renationalising the trains, banks, clouds and air.

And they still wouldn't fuck it up badly as May.

Even you must realise this, but you seem to still be clinging religiously to the ridiculous belief that Brexit is the ONLY thing she won't fuck up.

Bless...

tpfkar said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Bolton is not resigning as UKIP explodes into oblivion

I don't know what they are complaining about. They had a democratic vote to select their leader. Time to respect the vote and obey the will of the people. Suck it up, losers!

Yes, but I think they're getting a second one now?

tpfkar said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Bolton is not resigning as UKIP explodes into oblivion

I don't know what they are complaining about. They had a democratic vote to select their leader. Time to respect the vote and obey the will of the people. Suck it up, losers!

Bolton trying to do a Corbyn.

JSpring said:

If Corbyn were more in touch with his own party's base (i.e. the people who are *already* intending to vote Labour), then somehow Labour's polling position would be better?

And let's not even get into the fact that Brexit is vastly overestimated as an issue of electoral salience by the political bubble. As others have noted, the NHS, housing, education etc are much bigger to the average Joe and Julie.

The real way in which Labour can open up a big polling lead is by winning over Tory voters who aren't completely obsessed with Brexit and who are primarily concerned with the bread and butter issues mentioned above (which is actually the vast majority of them, again contrary to the general view of the political bubble).

Corbyn and McDonnell are hard left Marxists and the idea conservatives will vote for economic armageddon is for the birds

TOPPING said:

Cyclefree said:

Off topic: Is the Times subscription worth it? Am finally considering it.

I don't subscribe, but the luxury of stretching out with a copy of the Times over either a cup of coffee or a gin, reading the Letters page first, then the obits, then the news pages, then Times2 - is a very pleasant one.

I do that in my local cafe. It is indeed very pleasant.

My main reason for thinking about subscription is mainly so that I can link to interesting and relevant articles on it on my website.

Putting scanned copies filched from my local is not quite the done thing.......

I may try the taster version and see what it's like.

The premise upon which this thread header is based, and indeed about 50% of PB's thread headers of late, is that Brexit is going to be a big deal. It really isn't. That was the significance of Jim O'Neill's comments which I linked to this morning: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42769090

What he says, and he was a strong remainer, is that any economic effect of Brexit is likely to be "dwarfed" by a general uplift in world trading conditions so that the UK economy is likely to grow faster in 2018 than currently thought. The loss that he thinks the UK will suffer, 3% over 12 years to 2030, is "neither here nor there". In short the economic disaster that has been continually forecast is cancelled indefinitely.

Given that it will almost certainly be impossible to show any loss (or gain) from Brexit the idea that there is this yawning gap in British politics waiting to be filled is fantasy. The party best placed to fill that gap sits on about 6% and is going precisely nowhere despite the almost complete ineptitude of both of the major parties.

Of course there will still be a tiny minority who think that it is a shame that we are no longer a part of the councils of Europe, or sitting at the top table of our continent or whatever but the idea that there are a material number of votes in this is for the birds. Corbyn doesn't get much right but he is right on this. For this generation at least the question of whether we are in the EU or out of it is decided. Its time to move on to more interesting and important matters.

Scott_P said:

SeanT said:

But it won't be delivered by Keir Starmer. lol. It's far too important to be left to him. Hard Brexit would be delivered by Corbyn, McDonnell, Milne et al, who want out of the EU and the SM because it would stop them renationalising the trains, banks, clouds and air.

And they still wouldn't fuck it up badly as May.

Even you must realise this, but you seem to still be clinging religiously to the ridiculous belief that Brexit is the ONLY thing she won't fuck up.

Bless...

Unlike you with your use of language. We know you are a fully paid up member of the EU

So for the second time in two years, a party leader having lost the support of his colleagues, refuses to resign and submits himself to his members. Corbyn and his cronies will be familiar with the quote from Karl Marx: "History repeats itself, the first time as tragedy, the second time as farce"

SeanT said:

Cyclefree said:

Off topic: Is the Times subscription worth it? Am finally considering it.

Their lead travel writer is a journalist by the name Sean Thomas. If that's any help.

Also, quite seriously, yes: it is the best paper as a "proper" newspaper, and their iPad/iPhone apps are now excellent (after being dreadful for years).

However for quick news in the morning I still usually go to the BBC, Guardian, or FT. Or Telegraph for Brexitbait. Then in the evening I will peruse the Times properly, if I'm at home.

Jesus, did I just say "peruse"?

I grow old, I grow old, I shall wear the bottoms of my trousers rolled.

Yeah: I've read this Thomas fellow. Pretty good, I must say. Is he likely to be travelling to Botswana or Namibia in the near future? Because I'm considering them for a possible trip in the next year or so.

The Telegraph is dreadful. The Mail is good for videos of cute cats making the bed etc and Meghan/Harry stuff. I never look at the BBC. Prospect and Quillette are quite good for lengthier and more thoughtful articles. I daren't look at any more otherwise I would waste my days even more than I do already.......

SeanT said:

Scott_P said:

SeanT said:

But it won't be delivered by Keir Starmer. lol. It's far too important to be left to him. Hard Brexit would be delivered by Corbyn, McDonnell, Milne et al, who want out of the EU and the SM because it would stop them renationalising the trains, banks, clouds and air.

And they still wouldn't fuck it up badly as May.

Even you must realise this, but you seem to still be clinging religiously to the ridiculous belief that Brexit is the ONLY thing she won't fuck up.

Bless...

Of course she will fuck it up. How many times do I have to say this. Brexit is by definition a bloody mess and a hideous ordeal. A fuck up. Like HAVING A BABY. No individual leader could make it significantly better - or worse. It is a revolution, not an evolution. It is beyond the wit of one person to affect its course majorly.


https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/10/brexit-just-like-baby/

TMay is dire and depressing. She makes me groan. I'd like someone better, but I wouldn't expect them to delivery a vastly different Brexit.

Corbyn is much much worse because on top of the necessary but wearisome difficulties of Brexit he'd add Chavez style communism and we'd all die of malnutrition if we weren't beheaded by his Islamist friends first.

It's good to have you back.

Who knew that UKIP has (had) an "assistant deputy leader"?

Cyclefree said:

SeanT said:

Cyclefree said:

Off topic: Is the Times subscription worth it? Am finally considering it.

Their lead travel writer is a journalist by the name Sean Thomas. If that's any help.

Also, quite seriously, yes: it is the best paper as a "proper" newspaper, and their iPad/iPhone apps are now excellent (after being dreadful for years).

However for quick news in the morning I still usually go to the BBC, Guardian, or FT. Or Telegraph for Brexitbait. Then in the evening I will peruse the Times properly, if I'm at home.

Jesus, did I just say "peruse"?

I grow old, I grow old, I shall wear the bottoms of my trousers rolled.

Yeah: I've read this Thomas fellow. Pretty good, I must say. Is he likely to be travelling to Botswana or Namibia in the near future? Because I'm considering them for a possible trip in the next year or so.

The Telegraph is dreadful. The Mail is good for videos of cute cats making the bed etc and Meghan/Harry stuff. I never look at the BBC. Prospect and Quillette are quite good for lengthier and more thoughtful articles. I daren't look at any more otherwise I would waste my days even more than I do already.......

Don’t forget the Guardian. Despite the editorial slant, the depth of coverage is pretty good. Telegraph truly is dreadful. Full of click bait these days.

Agent Bolton, your work here is nearly done.

Your retirement years safe seat in Surrey awaits.

TOPPING said:

DavidL said:

The premise upon which this thread header is based, and indeed about 50% of PB's thread headers of late, is that Brexit is going to be a big deal. It really isn't. That was the significance of Jim O'Neill's comments which I linked to this morning: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42769090

What he says, and he was a strong remainer, is that any economic effect of Brexit is likely to be "dwarfed" by a general uplift in world trading conditions so that the UK economy is likely to grow faster in 2018 than currently thought. The loss that he thinks the UK will suffer, 3% over 12 years to 2030, is "neither here nor there". In short the economic disaster that has been continually forecast is cancelled indefinitely.

Given that it will almost certainly be impossible to show any loss (or gain) from Brexit the idea that there is this yawning gap in British politics waiting to be filled is fantasy. The party best placed to fill that gap sits on about 6% and is going precisely nowhere despite the almost complete ineptitude of both of the major parties.

Of course there will still be a tiny minority who think that it is a shame that we are no longer a part of the councils of Europe, or sitting at the top table of our continent or whatever but the idea that there are a material number of votes in this is for the birds. Corbyn doesn't get much right but he is right on this. For this generation at least the question of whether we are in the EU or out of it is decided. Its time to move on to more interesting and important matters.

Yes. It's just curious that otherwise sensible people have voted for a diminution in wealth. Still, no one on a healthy six figure salary should worry about it too much, as you rightly note.

I personally don't believe that there will be a diminution in wealth but I acknowledge it is a possibility. But good luck finding it one way or the other, it will be swamped by a dozen more important factors over that timescale.

The key point is that once the economic argument is put into perspective why the hell would any sane person want to remain in something as dysfunctional and undemocratic as the EU? I can only put the fact that it was as close as it was down to the advantages that a government with a seriously capable PM has in a referendum.

DavidL said:

The premise upon which this thread header is based, and indeed about 50% of PB's thread headers of late, is that Brexit is going to be a big deal. It really isn't. That was the significance of Jim O'Neill's comments which I linked to this morning: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42769090

Brexit is primarily a political event, not an economic event.

Does anyone really think any British government is going to spend money on new customs infrastructure that would act as a visible symbol of the end of frictionless trade with Europe?

Scott_P said:

SeanT said:

TMay is dire and depressing. She makes me groan. I'd like someone better, but I wouldn't expect them to delivery a vastly different Brexit.

The cognitive dissonance is staggering. Try this...

TMay is dire and depressing. I'd like someone better, but I wouldn't expect them to delivery a vastly different...

...Election result

...conference speech

...reshuffle

...Brexit

Why is Brexit the only one on that list you think wouldn't be any different?

Blind faith is a wonderful thing.

Theresa May is a poor PM. But, she's not harming me or mine. Corbyn and co. would do. The fact that Corbyn might be more competent at harming me then Theresa May is at not harming me would be cold comfort.

IanB2 said:

Shock news....Neil Hamilton calls upon sleazy Bolton to resign....

Henry Bolton has made himself into a "ludicrous figure", says Neil Hamilton

LOL, there has to be a play in this.

TOPPING said:

Cyclefree said:

TOPPING said:

Cyclefree said:

Off topic: Is the Times subscription worth it? Am finally considering it.

I don't subscribe, but the luxury of stretching out with a copy of the Times over either a cup of coffee or a gin, reading the Letters page first, then the obits, then the news pages, then Times2 - is a very pleasant one.

I do that in my local cafe. It is indeed very pleasant.

My main reason for thinking about subscription is mainly so that I can link to interesting and relevant articles on it on my website.

Putting scanned copies filched from my local is not quite the done thing.......

I may try the taster version and see what it's like.

Yebbut wouldn't the people reading your website have to have the subscription also to be able to read the articles?

The sorts of clients I'm aiming at would almost certainly have company subscriptions if not personal ones. And sometimes the headlines may be enough for my purposes, which is not primarily to increase the Times's readership.

I can have selective taster quotes but there are laws about copying great chunks of copyrighted articles.

williamglenn said:

DavidL said:

The premise upon which this thread header is based, and indeed about 50% of PB's thread headers of late, is that Brexit is going to be a big deal. It really isn't. That was the significance of Jim O'Neill's comments which I linked to this morning: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42769090

Brexit is primarily a political event, not an economic event.

Does anyone really think any British government is going to spend money on new customs infrastructure that would act as a visible symbol of the end of frictionless trade with Europe?

I completely agree. And in fairness you have always been clear that you saw it in those terms and believed that politically it was a mistake for the UK. Fair enough. I disagree but I respect the viewpoint.

What I am totally bored with is those claiming that our industries will be closing down or departing, that our exports will collapse, that our planes will not be able to land, that our legal system will be in more chaos than usual, that those not deeply interested in the politics as you are will even notice. It's just not true.

No, as diehard Remainers are already overwhelmingly voting Labour anyway and if not they will be voting LD and not Tory.

It is Corbynite socialism that is keeping June 2017 Tories from switching to Labour not Labour's acceptance of the Brexit vote and most of the Tory marginals Corbyn needs to win for a working majority voted Leave and not Remain.

RobD said:

MarqueeMark said:

Agent Bolton, your work here is nearly done.

Your retirement years safe seat in Surrey awaits.

Agent Corbyn, on the other hand, has been an unmitigated disaster.

That's the risk - a whiff of power and they go rogue.

Scott_P said:

DavidL said:

The key point is that once the economic argument is put into perspective why the hell would any sane person want to remain in something as dysfunctional and undemocratic as the EU?

The argument the Brexiteers have been pitching here is that the economic outlook is better, because of growth in the EU.

So the perspective is the EU is doing better than the Brexiteers claimed.

And that would any sane person want to leave it?

Because we will gain anyway because our trade will not be materially affected. The EU, and in particular the EZ, has been a drag on our growth since the great recession. I will be delighted if that changes and it gives us a boost as well. Good luck to them. But stop pretending that Brexit will affect that materially.

To put it another way, the drivers for the world economy right now are China and the US. We will gain from both without even having a trade agreement. Magic!

rcs1000 said:

I realise that this will come as a surprise to many PBers, but I will *not* be going to the WEF in Davos this year.

Schedule conflict with the annual Illuminati gathering, I assume?

Anazina said:

HYUFD Posts: 37,584

I disagree. You are again presenting your own opinion as fact, your MO. *I think* Thornberry would be one of the few candidates to unify both wings of the party while luring soft-right Remain Tories on board.

HYUFD said:
Thornberry would fail to win over virtually any of the current Tory voters who voted for Blair then switched to Cameron and stuck with May Labour need for a majority, nor would she inspire left-wing voter turnout behind Labour as much as Corbyn while she also has less appeal to the white working class than Corbyn does, see her St George's flag comments.

-----------

HYUFD makes me LOL, the way he presents his own opinion as fact, every time. What St George's flag comments? She made no comment. And, in any case, who would want to live next to house covered top to tail in England flags? So many hypocrites out there attacking Thornberry while secretly thinking "that bloke is a mug". Hypocrites!!

White working class voters may not be great fans of Corbyn but at least he did not show the contempt for their values or Leave vote Thornberry did. As I said, she is Ed Miliband in a skirt

On topic -m the reason why Labour is not pulling away from the Tories is that Corbyn is utterly toxic to a large number of floating voters. Of course, the Tories are equally as toxic to a large number of floating voters under Theresa May. The Tories, though, will have another leader come the next GE. Labour won't. If they can find someone not too closely associated with Brexit, the Tories have every chance of winning again.

Do we have anything like this over here.... ?

https://nypost.com/2018/01/21/police-union-slashes-number-of-get-out-of-jail-free-cards-issued/

The city’s police-officers union is cracking down on the number of “get out of jail free” courtesy cards distributed to cops to give to family and friends.

Patrolmen’s Benevolent Association boss Pat Lynch slashed the maximum number of cards that could be issued to current cops from 30 to 20, and to retirees from 20 to 10, sources told The Post.

The cards are often used to wiggle out of minor trouble such as speeding tickets, the theory being that presenting one suggests you know someone in the NYPD.

The rank and file is livid.

“They are treating active members like s–t, and retired members even worse than s–t,” griped an NYPD cop who retired on disability. “All the cops I spoke to were . . . very disappointed they couldn’t hand them out as Christmas gifts.”

A source said Lynch ordered the cutback to stop the sale of the cards, which were being hawked on eBay last week for as much as $200.

The PBA and the NYPD declined comment….

HYUFD said:

Anazina said:

HYUFD Posts: 37,584

I disagree. You are again presenting your own opinion as fact, your MO. *I think* Thornberry would be one of the few candidates to unify both wings of the party while luring soft-right Remain Tories on board.

HYUFD said:
Thornberry would fail to win over virtually any of the current Tory voters who voted for Blair then switched to Cameron and stuck with May Labour need for a majority, nor would she inspire left-wing voter turnout behind Labour as much as Corbyn while she also has less appeal to the white working class than Corbyn does, see her St George's flag comments.

-----------

HYUFD makes me LOL, the way he presents his own opinion as fact, every time. What St George's flag comments? She made no comment. And, in any case, who would want to live next to house covered top to tail in England flags? So many hypocrites out there attacking Thornberry while secretly thinking "that bloke is a mug". Hypocrites!!

White working class voters may not be great fans of Corbyn but at least he did not show the contempt for their values or Leave vote Thornberry did. As I said, she is Ed Miliband in a skirt

I doubt that man voted Labour TBH. Looks more like a Ukip or BNP supporter but who knows? Would you like to live next to a house like that??

david_herdson said:

Cyclefree said:

AlastairMeeks said:

The Brexit cultists can't understand that many regard Brexit as being at least as damaging to the country as anything Jeremy Corbyn might do.

I disagree with OGH: it is logical for the most unreconciled Remainers to hope that Labour, the main party whose base is most sympathetic to them, returns to power and to hope that the leadership is then dragged EUwards in office.

It may be logical but it is also naive.

Everything that Corbyn has done since the election shows that he has no intention of staying in the Single Market or Customs Union. I do not see on what basis people think that he will be dragged EUwards were he in office.

It's delusion: they see what they want to see, because they really, really want to see it.

Indeed, it's not impossible that Corbyn could take the UK *further* out of the EU, in order to implement policies that discriminate in favour of British firms, if May ends up being forced into a very soft Brexit by the logic of the Irish border.

Unreconciled Remainers have few options.

Meanwhile, the Conservative pitch to them consists of: "we hate you, we think you're traitors and imbeciles, now vote for us because the other lot are worse". Labour are at least trying not to actively offend.

HYUFD said:

Anazina said:

HYUFD Posts: 37,584

I disagree. You are again presenting your own opinion as fact, your MO. *I think* Thornberry would be one of the few candidates to unify both wings of the party while luring soft-right Remain Tories on board.

HYUFD said:
Thornberry would fail to win over virtually any of the current Tory voters who voted for Blair then switched to Cameron and stuck with May Labour need for a majority, nor would she inspire left-wing voter turnout behind Labour as much as Corbyn while she also has less appeal to the white working class than Corbyn does, see her St George's flag comments.

-----------

HYUFD makes me LOL, the way he presents his own opinion as fact, every time. What St George's flag comments? She made no comment. And, in any case, who would want to live next to house covered top to tail in England flags? So many hypocrites out there attacking Thornberry while secretly thinking "that bloke is a mug". Hypocrites!!

White working class voters may not be great fans of Corbyn but at least he did not show the contempt for their values or Leave vote Thornberry did. As I said, she is Ed Miliband in a skirt

I think you would be surprised at the number of voters - working class or otherwise - who have absolutely no idea who Emily Thornberry is. If she did become labour leader and the Tories were still presiding over creaking public services and stagnating living standards come the next election, no-one is going to care about a Tweet she sent many years before.

Anazina said:

HYUFD said:

Anazina said:

HYUFD Posts: 37,584

I disagree. You are again presenting your own opinion as fact, your MO. *I think* Thornberry would be one of the few candidates to unify both wings of the party while luring soft-right Remain Tories on board.

HYUFD said:
Thornberry would fail to win over virtually any of the current Tory voters who voted for Blair then switched to Cameron and stuck with May Labour need for a majority, nor would she inspire left-wing voter turnout behind Labour as much as Corbyn while she also has less appeal to the white working class than Corbyn does, see her St George's flag comments.

-----------

HYUFD makes me LOL, the way he presents his own opinion as fact, every time. What St George's flag comments? She made no comment. And, in any case, who would want to live next to house covered top to tail in England flags? So many hypocrites out there attacking Thornberry while secretly thinking "that bloke is a mug". Hypocrites!!

White working class voters may not be great fans of Corbyn but at least he did not show the contempt for their values or Leave vote Thornberry did. As I said, she is Ed Miliband in a skirt

I doubt that man voted Labour TBH. Looks more like a Ukip or BNP supporter but who knows? Would you like to live next to a house like that??

Your sneer is uncannily similar to Emily's.....

Scott_P said:

Sean_F said:

Brexit causes me and mine no problems at all.

You don't buy a single imported product?

Is that the very definition of a Little Englander?

With global warming, the best wine growing regions of France are moving to southern England. Any way the best wines come from New Zealand so tarrifs on their wines will come down.

AlastairMeeks said:

david_herdson said:

Cyclefree said:

AlastairMeeks said:

The Brexit cultists can't understand that many regard Brexit as being at least as damaging to the country as anything Jeremy Corbyn might do.

I disagree with OGH: it is logical for the most unreconciled Remainers to hope that Labour, the main party whose base is most sympathetic to them, returns to power and to hope that the leadership is then dragged EUwards in office.

It may be logical but it is also naive.

Everything that Corbyn has done since the election shows that he has no intention of staying in the Single Market or Customs Union. I do not see on what basis people think that he will be dragged EUwards were he in office.

It's delusion: they see what they want to see, because they really, really want to see it.

Indeed, it's not impossible that Corbyn could take the UK *further* out of the EU, in order to implement policies that discriminate in favour of British firms, if May ends up being forced into a very soft Brexit by the logic of the Irish border.

Unreconciled Remainers have few options.

Meanwhile, the Conservative pitch to them consists of: "we hate you, we think you're traitors and imbeciles, now vote for us because the other lot are worse". Labour are at least trying not to actively offend.

It's not offensive if it's true. They just need to come to terms with their betrayal of our party and country. At least if they admit it I wouldn't mind having them back.

RobD said:

Nigelb said:

Do we have anything like this over here.... ?

https://nypost.com/2018/01/21/police-union-slashes-number-of-get-out-of-jail-free-cards-issued/

The city’s police-officers union is cracking down on the number of “get out of jail free” courtesy cards distributed to cops to give to family and friends.

Patrolmen’s Benevolent Association boss Pat Lynch slashed the maximum number of cards that could be issued to current cops from 30 to 20, and to retirees from 20 to 10, sources told The Post.

The cards are often used to wiggle out of minor trouble such as speeding tickets, the theory being that presenting one suggests you know someone in the NYPD.

The rank and file is livid.

“They are treating active members like s–t, and retired members even worse than s–t,” griped an NYPD cop who retired on disability. “All the cops I spoke to were . . . very disappointed they couldn’t hand them out as Christmas gifts.”

A source said Lynch ordered the cutback to stop the sale of the cards, which were being hawked on eBay last week for as much as $200.

The PBA and the NYPD declined comment….

Unbelievable! So much for justice being blind.

If only Chris Huhne had known.....

AlastairMeeks said:

MaxPB said:

AlastairMeeks said:

david_herdson said:

Cyclefree said:

AlastairMeeks said:

The Brexit cultists can't understand that many regard Brexit as being at least as damaging to the country as anything Jeremy Corbyn might do.

I disagree with OGH: it is logical for the most unreconciled Remainers to hope that Labour, the main party whose base is most sympathetic to them, returns to power and to hope that the leadership is then dragged EUwards in office.

It may be logical but it is also naive.

Everything that Corbyn has done since the election shows that he has no intention of staying in the Single Market or Customs Union. I do not see on what basis people think that he will be dragged EUwards were he in office.

It's delusion: they see what they want to see, because they really, really want to see it.

Indeed, it's not impossible that Corbyn could take the UK *further* out of the EU, in order to implement policies that discriminate in favour of British firms, if May ends up being forced into a very soft Brexit by the logic of the Irish border.

Unreconciled Remainers have few options.

Meanwhile, the Conservative pitch to them consists of: "we hate you, we think you're traitors and imbeciles, now vote for us because the other lot are worse". Labour are at least trying not to actively offend.

It's not offensive if it's true. They just need to come to terms with their betrayal of our party and country. At least if they admit it I wouldn't mind having them back.

As I said, not much of a pitch. Complaining if they vote for Labour is among the sillier things that the ardent Brexiters could do, and that's a high bar to vault over.

I'm not complaining, as I said, I don't want them back. The compromises necessary to get them back are not worth it.

MaxPB said:

AlastairMeeks said:

david_herdson said:

Cyclefree said:

AlastairMeeks said:

The Brexit cultists can't understand that many regard Brexit as being at least as damaging to the country as anything Jeremy Corbyn might do.

I disagree with OGH: it is logical for the most unreconciled Remainers to hope that Labour, the main party whose base is most sympathetic to them, returns to power and to hope that the leadership is then dragged EUwards in office.

It may be logical but it is also naive.

Everything that Corbyn has done since the election shows that he has no intention of staying in the Single Market or Customs Union. I do not see on what basis people think that he will be dragged EUwards were he in office.

It's delusion: they see what they want to see, because they really, really want to see it.

Indeed, it's not impossible that Corbyn could take the UK *further* out of the EU, in order to implement policies that discriminate in favour of British firms, if May ends up being forced into a very soft Brexit by the logic of the Irish border.

Unreconciled Remainers have few options.

Meanwhile, the Conservative pitch to them consists of: "we hate you, we think you're traitors and imbeciles, now vote for us because the other lot are worse". Labour are at least trying not to actively offend.

It's not offensive if it's true. They just need to come to terms with their betrayal of our party and country. At least if they admit it I wouldn't mind having them back.

This is why the Tories will struggle to win an overall majority. Long may it continue.

HYUFD said:

Anazina said:

HYUFD Posts: 37,584

I disagree. You are again presenting your own opinion as fact, your MO. *I think* Thornberry would be one of the few candidates to unify both wings of the party while luring soft-right Remain Tories on board.

HYUFD said:
Thornberry would fail to win over virtually any of the current Tory voters who voted for Blair then switched to Cameron and stuck with May Labour need for a majority, nor would she inspire left-wing voter turnout behind Labour as much as Corbyn while she also has less appeal to the white working class than Corbyn does, see her St George's flag comments.

-----------

HYUFD makes me LOL, the way he presents his own opinion as fact, every time. What St George's flag comments? She made no comment. And, in any case, who would want to live next to house covered top to tail in England flags? So many hypocrites out there attacking Thornberry while secretly thinking "that bloke is a mug". Hypocrites!!

White working class voters may not be great fans of Corbyn but at least he did not show the contempt for their values or Leave vote Thornberry did. As I said, she is Ed Miliband in a skirt

Most white working class voters would run a mile rather than cover their houses in England flags. If you've never actually met any I suggest you drive around a council estate and see how many England flags you see.

MaxPB said:

David_Evershed said:

MaxPB said:

rcs1000 said:

I realise that this will come as a surprise to many PBers, but I will *not* be going to the WEF in Davos this year.

Unfortunately I will be. Essentially as a bag carrier. What a waste of time. Hopefully I can duck out on Wednesday.

Are you public sector or private sector?

Private.

So the taxpayer is not paying for your Davos trip - good.

MaxPB said:

SouthamObserver said:

MaxPB said:

AlastairMeeks said:

david_herdson said:

Cyclefree said:

AlastairMeeks said:

The Brexit cultists can't understand that many regard Brexit as being at least as damaging to the country as anything Jeremy Corbyn might do.

I disagree with OGH: it is logical for the most unreconciled Remainers to hope that Labour, the main party whose base is most sympathetic to them, returns to power and to hope that the leadership is then dragged EUwards in office.

It may be logical but it is also naive.

Everything that Corbyn has done since the election shows that he has no intention of staying in the Single Market or Customs Union. I do not see on what basis people think that he will be dragged EUwards were he in office.

It's delusion: they see what they want to see, because they really, really want to see it.

Indeed, it's not impossible that Corbyn could take the UK *further* out of the EU, in order to implement policies that discriminate in favour of British firms, if May ends up being forced into a very soft Brexit by the logic of the Irish border.

Unreconciled Remainers have few options.

Meanwhile, the Conservative pitch to them consists of: "we hate you, we think you're traitors and imbeciles, now vote for us because the other lot are worse". Labour are at least trying not to actively offend.

It's not offensive if it's true. They just need to come to terms with their betrayal of our party and country. At least if they admit it I wouldn't mind having them back.

This is why the Tories will struggle to win an overall majority. Long may it continue.

No we struggled in 2017 because out leader is crap and she has crap ideas. I said it earlier, Labour are winning f on core issues other than Brexit. Our party has nothing to offer on those issues and that is why we're struggling. We need a new leader with new ideas. Once we've left I expect the party will force May out and one of the 2010/2015 in take will get the go ahead.

Nope, the language of traitors and betrayal is divisive and off-putting for non-believers.

SouthamObserver said:

MaxPB said:

SouthamObserver said:

MaxPB said:

AlastairMeeks said:

david_herdson said:

Cyclefree said:

AlastairMeeks said:

The Brexit cultists can't understand that many regard Brexit as being at least as damaging to the country as anything Jeremy Corbyn might do.

I disagree with OGH: it is logical for the most unreconciled Remainers to hope that Labour, the main party whose base is most sympathetic to them, returns to power and to hope that the leadership is then dragged EUwards in office.

It may be logical but it is also naive.

Everything that Corbyn has done since the election shows that he has no intention of staying in the Single Market or Customs Union. I do not see on what basis people think that he will be dragged EUwards were he in office.

It's delusion: they see what they want to see, because they really, really want to see it.

Indeed, it's not impossible that Corbyn could take the UK *further* out of the EU, in order to implement policies that discriminate in favour of British firms, if May ends up being forced into a very soft Brexit by the logic of the Irish border.

Unreconciled Remainers have few options.

Meanwhile, the Conservative pitch to them consists of: "we hate you, we think you're traitors and imbeciles, now vote for us because the other lot are worse". Labour are at least trying not to actively offend.

It's not offensive if it's true. They just need to come to terms with their betrayal of our party and country. At least if they admit it I wouldn't mind having them back.

This is why the Tories will struggle to win an overall majority. Long may it continue.

No we struggled in 2017 because out leader is crap and she has crap ideas. I said it earlier, Labour are winning f on core issues other than Brexit. Our party has nothing to offer on those issues and that is why we're struggling. We need a new leader with new ideas. Once we've left I expect the party will force May out and one of the 2010/2015 in take will get the go ahead.

Nope, the language of traitors and betrayal is divisive and off-putting for non-believers.

How about "Swivel-eyed xenophobic loons"?

HYUFD said:

SouthamObserver said:

HYUFD said:

Anazina said:

HYUFD Posts: 37,584

I disagree. You are again presenting your own opinion as fact, your MO. *I think* Thornberry would be one of the few candidates to unify both wings of the party while luring soft-right Remain Tories on board.

HYUFD said:
Thornberry would fail to win over virtually any of the current Tory voters who voted for Blair then switched to Cameron and stuck with May Labour need for a majority, nor would she inspire left-wing voter turnout behind Labour as much as Corbyn while she also has less appeal to the white working class than Corbyn does, see her St George's flag comments.

-----------

HYUFD makes me LOL, the way he presents his own opinion as fact, every time. What St George's flag comments? She made no comment. And, in any case, who would want to live next to house covered top to tail in England flags? So many hypocrites out there attacking Thornberry while secretly thinking "that bloke is a mug". Hypocrites!!

White working class voters may not be great fans of Corbyn but at least he did not show the contempt for their values or Leave vote Thornberry did. As I said, she is Ed Miliband in a skirt

I think you would be surprised at the number of voters - working class or otherwise - who have absolutely no idea who Emily Thornberry is. If she did become labour leader and the Tories were still presiding over creaking public services and stagnating living standards come the next election, no-one is going to care about a Tweet she sent many years before.

Cultural values determine elections nowadays almost as much as economics and a soft left social democrat globalist like Thornberry with contempt for national pride of any kind will not be winning the white working class vote.

If Labour get rid of Corbyn only Blairism would really be a better alternative, certainly not relaunching the leadership and style of Ed Miliband

Cultural values are linked to economic outcomes. The flag will get the Tories so far, but crumbling public services and stagnating living standards will do for them if they are not addressed. In our FPTP system not being on the far left would be enough to see Thornberry home, especially as she is fluent and credible enough to come up with some form of words on her Tweet for the very small number who do remember it. However, this is all academic as Jeremy Corbyn will almost certainly be Labour leader at the next election.

John_M said:

MaxPB said:

AlastairMeeks said:

david_herdson said:

Cyclefree said:

AlastairMeeks said:

The Brexit cultists can't understand that many regard Brexit as being at least as damaging to the country as anything Jeremy Corbyn might do.

I disagree with OGH: it is logical for the most unreconciled Remainers to hope that Labour, the main party whose base is most sympathetic to them, returns to power and to hope that the leadership is then dragged EUwards in office.

It may be logical but it is also naive.

Everything that Corbyn has done since the election shows that he has no intention of staying in the Single Market or Customs Union. I do not see on what basis people think that he will be dragged EUwards were he in office.

It's delusion: they see what they want to see, because they really, really want to see it.

Indeed, it's not impossible that Corbyn could take the UK *further* out of the EU, in order to implement policies that discriminate in favour of British firms, if May ends up being forced into a very soft Brexit by the logic of the Irish border.

Unreconciled Remainers have few options.

Meanwhile, the Conservative pitch to them consists of: "we hate you, we think you're traitors and imbeciles, now vote for us because the other lot are worse". Labour are at least trying not to actively offend.

It's not offensive if it's true. They just need to come to terms with their betrayal of our party and country. At least if they admit it I wouldn't mind having them back.

I really dislike that kind of characterisation. I think we should accept that people's views on the benefits and drawbacks of EU membership are sincerely held and respect that. It's far to early to say whether Brexit will be a success (and of course, each person's success criteria may well differ). I havered before the referendum, have worried about my vote since and am still riddled with doubt (though I'm far more sanguine than say, last summer).

I'm talking specifically of Tories who turned their back on the party because the leadership decided to implement the result of the referendum. They betrayed our party and then by voting for Corbyn they betrayed our country. It's not a huge group of people but those 11 useful idiots in Parliament are among them.

MaxPB said:

SouthamObserver said:

MaxPB said:

AlastairMeeks said:

david_herdson said:

Cyclefree said:

AlastairMeeks said:

The Brexit cultists can't understand that many regard Brexit as being at least as damaging to the country as anything Jeremy Corbyn might do.

I disagree with OGH: it is logical for the most unreconciled Remainers to hope that Labour, the main party whose base is most sympathetic to them, returns to power and to hope that the leadership is then dragged EUwards in office.

It may be logical but it is also naive.

Everything that Corbyn has done since the election shows that he has no intention of staying in the Single Market or Customs Union. I do not see on what basis people think that he will be dragged EUwards were he in office.

It's delusion: they see what they want to see, because they really, really want to see it.

Indeed, it's not impossible that Corbyn could take the UK *further* out of the EU, in order to implement policies that discriminate in favour of British firms, if May ends up being forced into a very soft Brexit by the logic of the Irish border.

Unreconciled Remainers have few options.

Meanwhile, the Conservative pitch to them consists of: "we hate you, we think you're traitors and imbeciles, now vote for us because the other lot are worse". Labour are at least trying not to actively offend.

It's not offensive if it's true. They just need to come to terms with their betrayal of our party and country. At least if they admit it I wouldn't mind having them back.

This is why the Tories will struggle to win an overall majority. Long may it continue.

No we struggled in 2017 because out leader is crap and she has crap ideas. I said it earlier, Labour are winning f on core issues other than Brexit. Our party has nothing to offer on those issues and that is why we're struggling. We need a new leader with new ideas. Once we've left I expect the party will force May out and one of the 2010/2015 in take will get the go ahead.

Are you one of those neobrexiteers like HYUFD and Carlotta?

Anazina said:

MaxPB said:

SouthamObserver said:

MaxPB said:

AlastairMeeks said:

david_herdson said:

Cyclefree said:

AlastairMeeks said:

The Brexit cultists can't understand that many regard Brexit as being at least as damaging to the country as anything Jeremy Corbyn might do.

I disagree with OGH: it is logical for the most unreconciled Remainers to hope that Labour, the main party whose base is most sympathetic to them, returns to power and to hope that the leadership is then dragged EUwards in office.

It may be logical but it is also naive.

Everything that Corbyn has done since the election shows that he has no intention of staying in the Single Market or Customs Union. I do not see on what basis people think that he will be dragged EUwards were he in office.

It's delusion: they see what they want to see, because they really, really want to see it.

Indeed, it's not impossible that Corbyn could take the UK *further* out of the EU, in order to implement policies that discriminate in favour of British firms, if May ends up being forced into a very soft Brexit by the logic of the Irish border.

Unreconciled Remainers have few options.

Meanwhile, the Conservative pitch to them consists of: "we hate you, we think you're traitors and imbeciles, now vote for us because the other lot are worse". Labour are at least trying not to actively offend.

It's not offensive if it's true. They just need to come to terms with their betrayal of our party and country. At least if they admit it I wouldn't mind having them back.

This is why the Tories will struggle to win an overall majority. Long may it continue.

No we struggled in 2017 because out leader is crap and she has crap ideas. I said it earlier, Labour are winning f on core issues other than Brexit. Our party has nothing to offer on those issues and that is why we're struggling. We need a new leader with new ideas. Once we've left I expect the party will force May out and one of the 2010/2015 in take will get the go ahead.

Are you one of those neobrexiteers like HYUFD and Carlotta?

Eh?

I voted to leave, if that's what you're asking.

Sunil_Prasannan said:

Of course the UK NEVER imported a single item before 1973.

Umm, they did...

And they all got more expensive after the Brexit vote. If you buy them, they cost more...

MaxPB said:

John_M said:

MaxPB said:

AlastairMeeks said:

david_herdson said:

Cyclefree said:

AlastairMeeks said:

The Brexit cultists can't understand that many regard Brexit as being at least as damaging to the country as anything Jeremy Corbyn might do.

I disagree with OGH: it is logical for the most unreconciled Remainers to hope that Labour, the main party whose base is most sympathetic to them, returns to power and to hope that the leadership is then dragged EUwards in office.

It may be logical but it is also naive.

Everything that Corbyn has done since the election shows that he has no intention of staying in the Single Market or Customs Union. I do not see on what basis people think that he will be dragged EUwards were he in office.

It's delusion: they see what they want to see, because they really, really want to see it.

Indeed, it's not impossible that Corbyn could take the UK *further* out of the EU, in order to implement policies that discriminate in favour of British firms, if May ends up being forced into a very soft Brexit by the logic of the Irish border.

Unreconciled Remainers have few options.

Meanwhile, the Conservative pitch to them consists of: "we hate you, we think you're traitors and imbeciles, now vote for us because the other lot are worse". Labour are at least trying not to actively offend.

It's not offensive if it's true. They just need to come to terms with their betrayal of our party and country. At least if they admit it I wouldn't mind having them back.

I really dislike that kind of characterisation. I think we should accept that people's views on the benefits and drawbacks of EU membership are sincerely held and respect that. It's far to early to say whether Brexit will be a success (and of course, each person's success criteria may well differ). I havered before the referendum, have worried about my vote since and am still riddled with doubt (though I'm far more sanguine than say, last summer).

I'm talking specifically of Tories who turned their back on the party because the leadership decided to implement the result of the referendum. They betrayed our party and then by voting for Corbyn they betrayed our country. It's not a huge group of people but those 11 useful idiots in Parliament are among them.

So MPs that do not follow the government line on Brexit are traitors? That's what Jo Cox's assassin called her, isn't it?

Ishmael_Z said:

comprehensible by the outwitted-by-a-bus demographic.

This is also a curious phrase.

The demographic that were outwitted by a bus were those who voted leave in expectation of £350m a week for the NHS.

I am not one of those...

MaxPB said:

SouthamObserver said:

Nope, the language of traitors and betrayal is divisive and off-putting for non-believers.

It's not language, it's just the truth. Those Tories who turned their backs on the party because we're doing what the people told us to do are traitors. There is no other word for it.

If May wasn't so rubbish and her policies weren't awful we would have won a handy majority in 2017, but the dementia tax and her dodging the debates put and end to all of that. A good solid Tory manifesto of tax cuts for the middle classes, benefit cuts for the lazy, £350m per week for the NHS by 2022 (on the side of a bus) and tax cuts for business would have seen us well over the line but instead she decided it would be a good idea to target people with dementia for more money.

People who do not agree with Tory policy are not obliged to vote for the Tories. That is not treachery, it is democracy.