politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » In terms of leadership chances Jeremy Hunt emerges as the winn
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Boris may have charisma in spades, but if his own wife can’t trust him then why the hell should the rest of us?rottenborough said:
At the moment I take the view that really only Boris has the charisma and punch to beat Corbyn, but I also take the view that who the hell knows anything anymore.MaxPB said:
Nah, by the time the leadership is up for grabs we'll be out of the EU. The members won't be that bothered by their leave/remain status as long as no one is foolish enough to run on rejoin, they will get a fair hearing.rottenborough said:
Hmm. I'd like to think all this will matter, as I have money on this. But, aren't we forgetting the ageing Brexiteer, JRM worshipping membership who actually decide this?TheScreamingEagles said:
Cameron’s a huge fan of Hunt too which should help.DavidL said:I've been saying this for some time. I remember being particularly impressed when he was sent to a R5 Live phone in during the 2015 election as a substitute for Cameron at pretty short notice. He handled difficult questions with the same clarity and at least superficial straightforwardness that we heard yesterday.
He has many of Cameron's attributes as a communicator. He perhaps doesn't have the extra gears of sheer intellect that Cameron has but I can't think of anyone currently in public life that does. As a very definite Cameroon his star waned somewhat when May took the leadership and he was sidelined to a degree. His enthusiastic support for May yesterday showed how he has overcome that.
For me, he is a class apart from any of the contenders. A remainer determined to make Brexit work, a unifier, a team player with a bit of steel as we saw when he refused to be bullied by the junior doctors, a man who has handled a very difficult brief during the longest period of restraint in health spending since the NHS was formed without it destroying the government. It's not even close.
More than anything else we want to win in 2022 and keep Corbyn out, do we need someone with a realistic chance of doing that, not someone wedded to a 2016 referendum view.0 -
Indeed. They'd be distraught if they didn't have something like this to comment about.Morris_Dancer said:*raises an eyebrow*
"I don't care about the colour of passports" say people who keep talking about the colour of passports...
On Hunt the risk woukd be like TMay he did well at a difficult post but is no good in the top job, but he reminds me a bit of Fallon pre resignation in that he can go on tv and take a hit or launch an attack but something about his style or presence means that to some degree counters don't stick in the memory.0 -
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Diane Abbott will announce they support Magentarottenborough said:
Kier Starmer will announce they support Blue
Jeremy Corbyn will announce they respect the vote0 -
@seanjonesqc: The red, white and blue #Brexit turns out to be putting the economy in the red to get blue passports to please white people.0
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And Emily Thornberry will just think respect, no matter what.Scott_P said:
Diane Abbott will announce they support Magentarottenborough said:
Kier Starmer will announce they support Blue
Jeremy Corbyn will announce they respect the vote0 -
Is Latin OK? Replace it with "Ne me culpaveris, manere sensi."TheScreamingEagles said:Anyhoo it won’t be a proper British passport until we get rid of the French on the front of it.
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It should be embossed with two dead Frenchmen on top of a pile of dead Frenchmen.TheScreamingEagles said:Anyhoo it won’t be a proper British passport until we get rid of the French on the front of it.
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It's not the colour of thedocument itself that's interesting; just that it's one more step in the march toward a particularly tawdry and banal iteration of nationalism espoused by orcish leavers.Morris_Dancer said:*raises an eyebrow*
"I don't care about the colour of passports" say people who keep talking about the colour of passports...0 -
One certainly hopes so.Scott_P said:@seanjonesqc: The red, white and blue #Brexit turns out to be putting the economy in the red to get blue passports to please white people.
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And Angela Rayner will be on HIGNFY saying that the three positions above are entirely consistent and logical, as four other people on the stage and a few hundred in the audience laugh at her as they did last week.Scott_P said:
Diane Abbott will announce they support Magentarottenborough said:
Kier Starmer will announce they support Blue
Jeremy Corbyn will announce they respect the vote0 -
I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their passport but by the content of their character.
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While such personal untrustworthyness is not to be ignored, there is not automatically a major correlation with professional untrustworthyness though it'd be a reason to be wary and want further proof of their trustworthyness.Sandpit said:
Boris may have charisma in spades, but if his own wife can’t trust him then why the hell should the rest of us?rottenborough said:
At the moment I take the view that really only Boris has the charisma and punch to beat Corbyn, but I also take the view that who the hell knows anything anymore.MaxPB said:
Nah, by the time the leadership is up for grabs we'll be out of the EU. The members won't be that bothered by their leave/remain status as long as no one is foolish enough to run on rejoin, they will get a fair hearing.rottenborough said:
Hmm. I'd like to think all this will matter, as I have money on this. But, aren't we forgetting the ageing Brexiteer, JRM worshipping membership who actually decide this?TheScreamingEagles said:
Cameron’s a huge fan of Hunt too which should help.DavidL said:I've been saying this for some time. I remember being particularly impressed when he was sent to a R5 Live phone in during the 2015 election as a substitute for Cameron at pretty short notice. He handled difficult questions with the same clarity and at least superficial straightforwardness that we heard yesterday.
He has many of Cameron's attributes as a communicator. He perhaps doesn't have the extra gears of sheer intellect that Cameron has but I can't think of anyone currently in public life that does. As a very definite Cameroon his star waned somewhat when May took the leadership and he was sidelined to a degree. His enthusiastic support for May yesterday showed how he has overcome that.
For me, he is a class apart from any of the contenders. A remainer determined to make Brexit work, a unifier, a team player with a bit of steel as we saw when he refused to be bullied by the junior doctors, a man who has handled a very difficult brief during the longest period of restraint in health spending since the NHS was formed without it destroying the government. It's not even close.
More than anything else we want to win in 2022 and keep Corbyn out, do we need someone with a realistic chance of doing that, not someone wedded to a 2016 referendum view.
I think Boris fails on that point, but in itself if the only criticism of someone was such a personal matter I don't think it would be determinative. People with personal failings have been very good leaders, as have people without those failings.0 -
Not really.Dura_Ace said:
It's not the colour of thedocument itself that's interesting; just that it's one more step in the march toward a particularly tawdry and banal iteration of nationalism espoused by orcish leavers.Morris_Dancer said:*raises an eyebrow*
"I don't care about the colour of passports" say people who keep talking about the colour of passports...
It just reminds some Remainers that Brexit is still happening, and they're worried it might be popular.0 -
A bit too contrived I think. Some people might care too much about passports, but clearly others care too much about peopLe who care about passports.Scott_P said:@seanjonesqc: The red, white and blue #Brexit turns out to be putting the economy in the red to get blue passports to please white people.
I care too much about those who care too much about people who care too much about passports. If you follow me.0 -
You've said more than once that even you'd be pleased to have these back though.SouthamObserver said:
Well that is genuinely good news. For all her recent pragmatism the worry about May is that she still craves the approval of the right-wing press a little bit too much. His hilarious conversion to Brexit notwithstanding, Hunt gives the impression of understanding that the Tories face a long time out of power if they pursue much more than a symbolic, blue passports departure from the EU.Mortimer said:
Do you know many Tory members?SouthamObserver said:Hunt is being very obvious about his ambition. His Brexit conversion was magnificently transparent. But with him in charge, it's likely we would essentially leave in name only, so of all the possibles he looks the most attractive by far. I suspect that may count against him among the membership, though.
I do. And Hunt has the least negatives of almost all the runners and riders.0 -
The names of the battles of 1759.Sean_F said:
It should be embossed with two dead Frenchmen on top of a pile of dead Frenchmen.TheScreamingEagles said:Anyhoo it won’t be a proper British passport until we get rid of the French on the front of it.
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Symbols matter. The symbolism here is of a government pandering to reactionary cretins. Not a good look.Morris_Dancer said:*raises an eyebrow*
"I don't care about the colour of passports" say people who keep talking about the colour of passports...0 -
Not sure I care at all. But hey, whatever floats their boat.kle4 said:
A bit too contrived I think. Some people might care too much about passports, but clearly others care too much about peopLe who care about passports.Scott_P said:@seanjonesqc: The red, white and blue #Brexit turns out to be putting the economy in the red to get blue passports to please white people.
I care too much about those who care too much about people who care too much about passports. If you follow me.0 -
A lot can change in 4.5 years but I think we need to play a very different game in GE2022 to win again.TheScreamingEagles said:
The party wants to win.rottenborough said:
Hmm. I'd like to think all this will matter, as I have money on this. But, aren't we forgetting the ageing Brexiteer, JRM worshipping membership who actually decide this?TheScreamingEagles said:
Cameron’s a huge fan of Hunt too which should help.DavidL said:I've been saying this for some time. I remember being particularly impressed when he was sent to a R5 Live phone in during the 2015 election as a substitute for Cameron at pretty short notice. He handled difficult questions with the same clarity and at least superficial straightforwardness that we heard yesterday.
He has many of Cameron's attributes as a communicator. He perhaps doesn't have the extra gears of sheer intellect that Cameron has but I can't think of anyone currently in public life that does. As a very definite Cameroon his star waned somewhat when May took the leadership and he was sidelined to a degree. His enthusiastic support for May yesterday showed how he has overcome that.
For me, he is a class apart from any of the contenders. A remainer determined to make Brexit work, a unifier, a team player with a bit of steel as we saw when he refused to be bullied by the junior doctors, a man who has handled a very difficult brief during the longest period of restraint in health spending since the NHS was formed without it destroying the government. It's not even close.
They’ll be as pragmatic as they were in 2005 and would have been in 2016 if they’d have had the final vote.
I can’t see JRM making the final two.
Plus his Papist views will see him the victim of ‘aggressive’ campaigning during the MP stage.
DD has been crap, his excruciating detail reports show that Airbus make plans and fishing is based in coastal areas.
Boris as Foreign Secretary has failed his audition.
The recent Ipsos MORI polling shows even Tories don’t like the Govester.
I'd be planning for it with a secret unit now.0 -
By the looks of this morning, u-turning on the policy would be pandering to militant Remainers.AlastairMeeks said:
Symbols matter. The symbolism here is of a government pandering to reactionary cretins. Not a good look.Morris_Dancer said:*raises an eyebrow*
"I don't care about the colour of passports" say people who keep talking about the colour of passports...0 -
"Orcish"? I mean, really?Dura_Ace said:
It's not the colour of thedocument itself that's interesting; just that it's one more step in the march toward a particularly tawdry and banal iteration of nationalism espoused by orcish leavers.Morris_Dancer said:*raises an eyebrow*
"I don't care about the colour of passports" say people who keep talking about the colour of passports...0 -
A good point well made. But if they are really going with the mimsy shade of blue in the image going around on Twitter it looks more like they are pandering to flamboyant hairdressers and Julian Clarey fans.AlastairMeeks said:
Symbols matter. The symbolism here is of a government pandering to reactionary cretins. Not a good look.Morris_Dancer said:*raises an eyebrow*
"I don't care about the colour of passports" say people who keep talking about the colour of passports...0 -
I always smiled at the thought that the first Eurostar trains from Paris turned up at London Waterloo stationanother_richard said:
The names of the battles of 1759.Sean_F said:
It should be embossed with two dead Frenchmen on top of a pile of dead Frenchmen.TheScreamingEagles said:Anyhoo it won’t be a proper British passport until we get rid of the French on the front of it.
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Yep, I like the idea of them. Symbolism is important and the British like their exceptionalism. If ways to acknowledge this are found, then it will allow a lot of technical alignment with the EU in vitally important areas that most people really are not that bothered about - such as the role of the ECJ and international trading relationships.Casino_Royale said:
You've said more than once that even you'd be pleased to have these back though.SouthamObserver said:
Well that is genuinely good news. For all her recent pragmatism the worry about May is that she still craves the approval of the right-wing press a little bit too much. His hilarious conversion to Brexit notwithstanding, Hunt gives the impression of understanding that the Tories face a long time out of power if they pursue much more than a symbolic, blue passports departure from the EU.Mortimer said:
Do you know many Tory members?SouthamObserver said:Hunt is being very obvious about his ambition. His Brexit conversion was magnificently transparent. But with him in charge, it's likely we would essentially leave in name only, so of all the possibles he looks the most attractive by far. I suspect that may count against him among the membership, though.
I do. And Hunt has the least negatives of almost all the runners and riders.
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Absolute nonsense.AlastairMeeks said:
Symbols matter. The symbolism here is of a government pandering to reactionary cretins. Not a good look.Morris_Dancer said:*raises an eyebrow*
"I don't care about the colour of passports" say people who keep talking about the colour of passports...
But, the fact it annoys people like you tells me it is the right thing to do.0 -
It's not even the right shade of blue. If the government wants to go full reactionary, I could get behind scrapping commemorative stamps and returning to producing only definitive issues. Otherwise, I'd prefer the government to be looking forward rather than harking back to a past that was never as good as nostalgia would have you believe.Mortimer said:
By the looks of this morning, u-turning on the policy would be pandering to militant Remainers.AlastairMeeks said:
Symbols matter. The symbolism here is of a government pandering to reactionary cretins. Not a good look.Morris_Dancer said:*raises an eyebrow*
"I don't care about the colour of passports" say people who keep talking about the colour of passports...0 -
Also remainers should be happy - it’s another opportunity for them to indulge in their favourite pastime of telling like minded souls how much they hate a sizeable majority of the people that share this island.Casino_Royale said:
Not really.Dura_Ace said:
It's not the colour of thedocument itself that's interesting; just that it's one more step in the march toward a particularly tawdry and banal iteration of nationalism espoused by orcish leavers.Morris_Dancer said:*raises an eyebrow*
"I don't care about the colour of passports" say people who keep talking about the colour of passports...
It just reminds some Remainers that Brexit is still happening, and they're worried it might be popular.0 -
I don't think it matters. Even if it is pandering (which it is) it's pandering that harms no one, and as such won't be indicative of how much pandering that might actually matter there will be. No one would think 'we'll I wasn't going to pander and do x, but we did change the passports so we're committed'. It won't affect what else is being done.DavidL said:
Not sure I care at all. But hey, whatever floats their boat.kle4 said:
A bit too contrived I think. Some people might care too much about passports, but clearly others care too much about peopLe who care about passports.Scott_P said:@seanjonesqc: The red, white and blue #Brexit turns out to be putting the economy in the red to get blue passports to please white people.
I care too much about those who care too much about people who care too much about passports. If you follow me.
On the contrary, someone is probably speculating or hoping this visual change is a distraction to mollify those who care so they don't get worked up about some soft leave concession as they got their damn blue passports back by jingo . I'd think that unlikely, but that's another reason the impact is nil.0 -
The first British commemorative stamps that spring to mind are the 1887 Jubilee issues. SEEms a rather bizarre example...AlastairMeeks said:
It's not even the right shade of blue. If the government wants to go full reactionary, I could get behind scrapping commemorative stamps and returning to producing only definitive issues. Otherwise, I'd prefer the government to be looking forward rather than harking back to a past that was never as good as nostalgia would have you believe.Mortimer said:
By the looks of this morning, u-turning on the policy would be pandering to militant Remainers.AlastairMeeks said:
Symbols matter. The symbolism here is of a government pandering to reactionary cretins. Not a good look.Morris_Dancer said:*raises an eyebrow*
"I don't care about the colour of passports" say people who keep talking about the colour of passports...0 -
Now you get some idea of how ridiculous militant Leavers look to the rest of the world when they are turning cartwheels at the return of a document (in a fake format) last seen a generation ago.Mortimer said:
The first British commemorative stamps that spring to mind are the 1887 Jubilee issues. SEEms a rather bizarre example...AlastairMeeks said:
It's not even the right shade of blue. If the government wants to go full reactionary, I could get behind scrapping commemorative stamps and returning to producing only definitive issues. Otherwise, I'd prefer the government to be looking forward rather than harking back to a past that was never as good as nostalgia would have you believe.Mortimer said:
By the looks of this morning, u-turning on the policy would be pandering to militant Remainers.AlastairMeeks said:
Symbols matter. The symbolism here is of a government pandering to reactionary cretins. Not a good look.Morris_Dancer said:*raises an eyebrow*
"I don't care about the colour of passports" say people who keep talking about the colour of passports...0 -
If you were ever in doubt Mrs May is egregiously unfit for high office....
Theresa May has backed calls for a woman to play James Bond, revealing she was looking forward to watching Jodie Whittaker as the first female Doctor Who on Christmas Day.
The prime minister said she enjoyed watching the BBC programme and heralded the decision to give the iconic role to Whittaker as “girl power”.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/22/leading-lady-theresa-may-calls-for-woman-to-play-james-bond0 -
Oh I see. It was just a poor straw man. Got it.AlastairMeeks said:
Now you get some idea of how ridiculous militant Leavers look to the rest of the world when they are turning cartwheels at the return of a document (in a fake format) last seen a generation ago.Mortimer said:
The first British commemorative stamps that spring to mind are the 1887 Jubilee issues. SEEms a rather bizarre example...AlastairMeeks said:
It's not even the right shade of blue. If the government wants to go full reactionary, I could get behind scrapping commemorative stamps and returning to producing only definitive issues. Otherwise, I'd prefer the government to be looking forward rather than harking back to a past that was never as good as nostalgia would have you believe.Mortimer said:
By the looks of this morning, u-turning on the policy would be pandering to militant Remainers.AlastairMeeks said:
Symbols matter. The symbolism here is of a government pandering to reactionary cretins. Not a good look.Morris_Dancer said:*raises an eyebrow*
"I don't care about the colour of passports" say people who keep talking about the colour of passports...0 -
I do not remember the old passports. I do remember having to queue up at the "Aliens" channel when coming back to England with my Italian mother as I travelled on her passport.Casino_Royale said:
Absolute nonsense.AlastairMeeks said:
Symbols matter. The symbolism here is of a government pandering to reactionary cretins. Not a good look.Morris_Dancer said:*raises an eyebrow*
"I don't care about the colour of passports" say people who keep talking about the colour of passports...
But, the fact it annoys people like you tells me it is the right thing to do.
"Aliens", for heaven's sake.
Changing the colour of the passports is a triviality. But it seems to matter to people who are nostalgic for a time when this is how Britain appeared to those who were married to and mothers of its citizens. It is, frankly, a nostalgia I can do without.
There are many reasons for being critical of the EU and there are also good reasons for thinking that Britain may be better off, depending on what you value, outside the EU. But doing it because you want to change the colour of your passport is pathetic. In my view.0 -
Except it is not...AlastairMeeks said:
Now you get some idea of how ridiculous militant Leavers look to the rest of the world when they are turning cartwheels at the return of a document (in a fake format) last seen a generation ago.Mortimer said:
The first British commemorative stamps that spring to mind are the 1887 Jubilee issues. SEEms a rather bizarre example...AlastairMeeks said:
It's not even the right shade of blue. If the government wants to go full reactionary, I could get behind scrapping commemorative stamps and returning to producing only definitive issues. Otherwise, I'd prefer the government to be looking forward rather than harking back to a past that was never as good as nostalgia would have you believe.Mortimer said:
By the looks of this morning, u-turning on the policy would be pandering to militant Remainers.AlastairMeeks said:
Symbols matter. The symbolism here is of a government pandering to reactionary cretins. Not a good look.Morris_Dancer said:*raises an eyebrow*
"I don't care about the colour of passports" say people who keep talking about the colour of passports...
https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/944005232043814913
But I agree with SO. It is a fairly harmless way to keep Sun readers briefly happy.0 -
The more I think about it, the more plausible Hunt sounds:
Oxford? Tick.
Married with children? Tick.
Successful entrepreneur? Tick.
Led a difficult government department? Tick.
Confronted producer interest? Tick.
Acceptable on Brexit? Tick.
Not too hard on the eye? Tick.
All he needs to do is pull some stirring lines together and he’d have a good chance with the membership. He seems far preferable to the creepy Williamson.
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While driving around this last week I've been keeping a look out for all those unharvested fields you talked about.AlastairMeeks said:
Symbols matter. The symbolism here is of a government pandering to reactionary cretins. Not a good look.Morris_Dancer said:*raises an eyebrow*
"I don't care about the colour of passports" say people who keep talking about the colour of passports...
I've not managed to see any yet in southern Yorkshire, northern Nottinghamshire or north-western Lincolnshire.
But then I wouldn't expect to given that employment in the agricultural sector is at a twenty year high.
Perhaps you could give details as to where they are.0 -
Judging from my first trip abroad in over a decade, countries still use aliens as a descriptor on forms etc, what has it to do with British nostalgia? For once, I truly don't understand one of your points.Cyclefree said:
I do not remember the old passports. I do remember having to queue up at the "Aliens" channel when coming back to England with my Italian mother as I travelled on her passport.Casino_Royale said:
Absolute nonsense.AlastairMeeks said:
Symbols matter. The symbolism here is of a government pandering to reactionary cretins. Not a good look.Morris_Dancer said:*raises an eyebrow*
"I don't care about the colour of passports" say people who keep talking about the colour of passports...
But, the fact it annoys people like you tells me it is the right thing to do.
"Aliens", for heaven's sake.
Changing the colour of the passports is a triviality. But it seems to matter to people who are nostalgic for a time when this is how Britain appeared to those who were married to and mothers of its citizens. It is, frankly, a nostalgia I can do without.0 -
Oh, for God's sake.TheScreamingEagles said:If you were ever in doubt Mrs May is egregiously unfit for high office....
Theresa May has backed calls for a woman to play James Bond, revealing she was looking forward to watching Jodie Whittaker as the first female Doctor Who on Christmas Day.
The prime minister said she enjoyed watching the BBC programme and heralded the decision to give the iconic role to Whittaker as “girl power”.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/22/leading-lady-theresa-may-calls-for-woman-to-play-james-bond
Why on earth should the PM or any other politician be expected to have an opinion on stuff this?
Edit: "stuff *like this", though come to think of it, stuff this seems reasonably apt.0 -
It being December, I'm doubtful that harvesting pressures are particularly intense right now.another_richard said:
While driving around this last week I've been keeping a look out for all those unharvested fields you talked about.AlastairMeeks said:
Symbols matter. The symbolism here is of a government pandering to reactionary cretins. Not a good look.Morris_Dancer said:*raises an eyebrow*
"I don't care about the colour of passports" say people who keep talking about the colour of passports...
I've not managed to see any yet in southern Yorkshire, northern Nottinghamshire or north-western Lincolnshire.
But then I wouldn't expect to given that employment in the agricultural sector is at a twenty year high.
Perhaps you could give details as to where they are.0 -
Actually, it matters to me, and I'm a little pi**ed off by it.kle4 said:
I don't think it matters. Even if it is pandering (which it is) it's pandering that harms no one, and as such won't be indicative of how much pandering that might actually matter there will be. No one would think 'we'll I wasn't going to pander and do x, but we did change the passports so we're committed'. It won't affect what else is being done.DavidL said:
Not sure I care at all. But hey, whatever floats their boat.kle4 said:
A bit too contrived I think. Some people might care too much about passports, but clearly others care too much about peopLe who care about passports.Scott_P said:@seanjonesqc: The red, white and blue #Brexit turns out to be putting the economy in the red to get blue passports to please white people.
I care too much about those who care too much about people who care too much about passports. If you follow me.
On the contrary, someone is probably speculating or hoping this visual change is a distraction to mollify those who care so they don't get worked up about some soft leave concession as they got their damn blue passports back by jingo . I'd think that unlikely, but that's another reason the impact is nil.
Now, I'm not saying my reaction is logical, but it's how I feel. All my passports have been burgundy, and I have no emotional connection to a blue passport. They're an image of the past, like steam trains and polio.
It seems like a cr@p, backward-looking change designed to placate people whose idealised memories of the past are better than the present. The burgundy ones even *look* better IMO, when comparing my dad's old blue ones with the latest.0 -
Of course it doesn't matter. But it has remainers calling people "orcish" and "reactionary cretins" this morning as well as suggesting we will be living on rats after Brexit. I sometimes wonder how on earth the vote was as close as it was. Who on earth would want to support a cause backed by people like that?kle4 said:
I don't think it matters. Even if it is pandering (which it is) it's pandering that harms no one, and as such won't be indicative of how much pandering that might actually matter there will be. No one would think 'we'll I wasn't going to pander and do x, but we did change the passports so we're committed'. It won't affect what else is being done.DavidL said:
Not sure I care at all. But hey, whatever floats their boat.kle4 said:
A bit too contrived I think. Some people might care too much about passports, but clearly others care too much about peopLe who care about passports.Scott_P said:@seanjonesqc: The red, white and blue #Brexit turns out to be putting the economy in the red to get blue passports to please white people.
I care too much about those who care too much about people who care too much about passports. If you follow me.
On the contrary, someone is probably speculating or hoping this visual change is a distraction to mollify those who care so they don't get worked up about some soft leave concession as they got their damn blue passports back by jingo . I'd think that unlikely, but that's another reason the impact is nil.0 -
Sprouts? Cabbages?AlastairMeeks said:
It being December, I'm doubtful that harvesting pressures are particularly intense right now.another_richard said:
While driving around this last week I've been keeping a look out for all those unharvested fields you talked about.AlastairMeeks said:
Symbols matter. The symbolism here is of a government pandering to reactionary cretins. Not a good look.Morris_Dancer said:*raises an eyebrow*
"I don't care about the colour of passports" say people who keep talking about the colour of passports...
I've not managed to see any yet in southern Yorkshire, northern Nottinghamshire or north-western Lincolnshire.
But then I wouldn't expect to given that employment in the agricultural sector is at a twenty year high.
Perhaps you could give details as to where they are.0 -
As is becoming a trend, the rotting crops is an example of reactionary Remainers overshouting their hand...another_richard said:
While driving around this last week I've been keeping a look out for all those unharvested fields you talked about.AlastairMeeks said:
Symbols matter. The symbolism here is of a government pandering to reactionary cretins. Not a good look.Morris_Dancer said:*raises an eyebrow*
"I don't care about the colour of passports" say people who keep talking about the colour of passports...
I've not managed to see any yet in southern Yorkshire, northern Nottinghamshire or north-western Lincolnshire.
But then I wouldn't expect to given that employment in the agricultural sector is at a twenty year high.
Perhaps you could give details as to where they are.
One of the definite Aces in the hand of Brexit are that the shouty commentariat won't reconcile themselves to a democratic vote.0 -
It was a fairly incoherent linking of a clearly longstanding insecurity about the fact that all states distinguish between foreigners and citizens, and a strawman about Leavers and their love of blue passports.kle4 said:
Judging from my first trip abroad in over a decade, countries still use aliens as a descriptor on forms etc, what has it to do with British nostalgia? For once, I truly don't understand one of your points.Cyclefree said:
I do not remember the old passports. I do remember having to queue up at the "Aliens" channel when coming back to England with my Italian mother as I travelled on her passport.Casino_Royale said:
Absolute nonsense.AlastairMeeks said:
Symbols matter. The symbolism here is of a government pandering to reactionary cretins. Not a good look.Morris_Dancer said:*raises an eyebrow*
"I don't care about the colour of passports" say people who keep talking about the colour of passports...
But, the fact it annoys people like you tells me it is the right thing to do.
"Aliens", for heaven's sake.
Changing the colour of the passports is a triviality. But it seems to matter to people who are nostalgic for a time when this is how Britain appeared to those who were married to and mothers of its citizens. It is, frankly, a nostalgia I can do without.0 -
The James Bond franchise should be put to rest.TheScreamingEagles said:If you were ever in doubt Mrs May is egregiously unfit for high office....
Theresa May has backed calls for a woman to play James Bond, revealing she was looking forward to watching Jodie Whittaker as the first female Doctor Who on Christmas Day.
The prime minister said she enjoyed watching the BBC programme and heralded the decision to give the iconic role to Whittaker as “girl power”.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/22/leading-lady-theresa-may-calls-for-woman-to-play-james-bond
If people want a female spy, then create something original.0 -
I am mid way through a fascinating documentary on Hamilton (fun fact for the day: he was actually born on Nevis and is probably their most famous citizen to date) - he understood the importance of symbols when it comes to nation building.AlastairMeeks said:
Symbols matter. The symbolism here is of a government pandering to reactionary cretins. Not a good look.Morris_Dancer said:*raises an eyebrow*
"I don't care about the colour of passports" say people who keep talking about the colour of passports...
You can sneer at them as being "cretinous" but fundamentally the people have voted for Britain to leave the EU, and this is part of that.0 -
So the UK current account deficit over the most recent four quarters is down to £93bn from the £124bn of the four quarters prior to that.
Still far too high but a £31bn reduction is rather significant compared to the UK to EU financial contributions.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nationalaccounts/balanceofpayments/timeseries/hbop/pnbp0 -
As far as I can see, the contract was up for renewal and the blue design was included as part of the contract spec.Casino_Royale said:
Absolute nonsense.AlastairMeeks said:
Symbols matter. The symbolism here is of a government pandering to reactionary cretins. Not a good look.Morris_Dancer said:*raises an eyebrow*
"I don't care about the colour of passports" say people who keep talking about the colour of passports...
But, the fact it annoys people like you tells me it is the right thing to do.
0 -
Good news.another_richard said:So the UK current account deficit over the most recent four quarters is down to £93bn from the £124bn of the four quarters prior to that.
Still far too high but a £31bn reduction is rather significant compared to the UK to EU financial contributions.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nationalaccounts/balanceofpayments/timeseries/hbop/pnbp0 -
If they want to volunteer commentary on pop culture issues it's no concern, so long as they are doing a fluff piece or something.Carolus_Rex said:
Oh, for God's sake.TheScreamingEagles said:If you were ever in doubt Mrs May is egregiously unfit for high office....
Theresa May has backed calls for a woman to play James Bond, revealing she was looking forward to watching Jodie Whittaker as the first female Doctor Who on Christmas Day.
The prime minister said she enjoyed watching the BBC programme and heralded the decision to give the iconic role to Whittaker as “girl power”.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/22/leading-lady-theresa-may-calls-for-woman-to-play-james-bond
Why on earth should the PM or any other politician be expected to have an opinion on stuff this?
Edit: "stuff *like this", though come to think of it, stuff this seems reasonably apt.
My longheld view on such matters comes down to whether gender or race or whatever was central to the core of a character. With the doctor gender didn't seem that central to me. With Bond, probably more so so why not just make a new character (it's not easy to get hits that way, but the drearily dull Jason Bourne shows new franchises can rise), but I won't cry into my pierce brosnan duvet cover about it.0 -
I think it's a given that it's going to be popular. Among people who smoke cigarettes and have writing all over their clothes.Casino_Royale said:
Not really.Dura_Ace said:
It's not the colour of thedocument itself that's interesting; just that it's one more step in the march toward a particularly tawdry and banal iteration of nationalism espoused by orcish leavers.Morris_Dancer said:*raises an eyebrow*
"I don't care about the colour of passports" say people who keep talking about the colour of passports...
It just reminds some Remainers that Brexit is still happening, and they're worried it might be popular.0 -
It has nothing to do with that. No-one is going to make anyone queue up at an "Aliens" counter again. Not in this day and age.Cyclefree said:
I do not remember the old passports. I do remember having to queue up at the "Aliens" channel when coming back to England with my Italian mother as I travelled on her passport.Casino_Royale said:
Absolute nonsense.AlastairMeeks said:
Symbols matter. The symbolism here is of a government pandering to reactionary cretins. Not a good look.Morris_Dancer said:*raises an eyebrow*
"I don't care about the colour of passports" say people who keep talking about the colour of passports...
But, the fact it annoys people like you tells me it is the right thing to do.
"Aliens", for heaven's sake.
Changing the colour of the passports is a triviality. But it seems to matter to people who are nostalgic for a time when this is how Britain appeared to those who were married to and mothers of its citizens. It is, frankly, a nostalgia I can do without.
There are many reasons for being critical of the EU and there are also good reasons for thinking that Britain may be better off, depending on what you value, outside the EU. But doing it because you want to change the colour of your passport is pathetic. In my view.
I do remember the old passports: they were far more impressive documents. A lot of people are excited about having back the look and feel of a document that many took pride in as a symbol of Britishness, that felt diminished subsequently.
Just because something used to be, and was scrapped, doesn't mean that it's automatically reactionary and retrograde to restore it. If it were, we'd never have restored the monarchy, reversed the nationalisations of the 1940s, marriage wouldn't be having a renaissance after its trough 20 years ago (and re-recognised in the tax system) and we'd still being promoting multiculturalism nationally, rather than British values.0 -
I don't care at all about the colour of my passport. I do remember when mine changed, around 1990 I think, and being told it was changing because of Europe. I think that's why a few people care.
Other than saying European Union on the front cover and page 1, rather bossily right at the top, my passport only mentions the EU in note 5, Consular support abroad. I'm advised to go to an EU country embassy if there isn't a UK one. The only right my passport claims to give me is that of abode in the UK.
I hope they keep the crucial Fahrenheit / Celsius conversion on every page of any new passport design. How else am I meant to translate the temperature for postcards to relatives when I'm away in decimal land?0 -
If I were part of a government wanting to dampen down cries of betrayal and surrender from Brexiteers in advance of the second phase Brexit negotiations blue passports is pretty much exactly what I would come up with.AlastairMeeks said:
Symbols matter. The symbolism here is of a government pandering to reactionary cretins. Not a good look.Morris_Dancer said:*raises an eyebrow*
"I don't care about the colour of passports" say people who keep talking about the colour of passports...
0 -
Maybe the government should have had a competition for designing the new passport with an online vote to decide the winner.
I haven't had a good look at the passports of other countries, but I have seen the US passport and I quite like the features on the pages.0 -
He also has an interracial marriage.RoyalBlue said:The more I think about it, the more plausible Hunt sounds:
Oxford? Tick.
Married with children? Tick.
Successful entrepreneur? Tick.
Led a difficult government department? Tick.
Confronted producer interest? Tick.
Acceptable on Brexit? Tick.
Not too hard on the eye? Tick.
All he needs to do is pull some stirring lines together and he’d have a good chance with the membership. He seems far preferable to the creepy Williamson.
That shouldn't matter either which way, but as a symbol, for a Tory, I think it does.0 -
I had clients who sold 90% of their entire year's output in value in the 2 weeks before Christmas. They grew Brussel Sprouts. It was an enormous logistical challenge involving quite a lot of spraying etc to ensure the crop was available at the right time. Come January they could barely give the things away and many seemed to go to animal feed.Carolus_Rex said:
Sprouts? Cabbages?AlastairMeeks said:
It being December, I'm doubtful that harvesting pressures are particularly intense right now.another_richard said:
While driving around this last week I've been keeping a look out for all those unharvested fields you talked about.AlastairMeeks said:
Symbols matter. The symbolism here is of a government pandering to reactionary cretins. Not a good look.Morris_Dancer said:*raises an eyebrow*
"I don't care about the colour of passports" say people who keep talking about the colour of passports...
I've not managed to see any yet in southern Yorkshire, northern Nottinghamshire or north-western Lincolnshire.
But then I wouldn't expect to given that employment in the agricultural sector is at a twenty year high.
Perhaps you could give details as to where they are.0 -
I think they look better in burgundy too, but the point was it doesn't indicate a general stance on pandering, since this one is such an easy and minor example. It really is just symbolic, so anyone hoping for more pandering or fearing it cannot really be reassured either way. There might be loads, but few will be as without tangible impacts as this one.JosiasJessop said:
Actually, it matters to me, and I'm a little pi**ed off by it.kle4 said:
I don't think it matters. Even if it is pandering (which it is) it's pandering that harms no one, and as such won't be indicative of how much pandering that might actually matter there will be. No one would think 'we'll I wasn't going to pander and do x, but we did change the passports so we're committed'. It won't affect what else is being done.DavidL said:
Not sure I care at all. But hey, whatever floats their boat.kle4 said:
A bit too contrived I think. Some people might care too much about passports, but clearly others care too much about peopLe who care about passports.Scott_P said:@seanjonesqc: The red, white and blue #Brexit turns out to be putting the economy in the red to get blue passports to please white people.
I care too much about those who care too much about people who care too much about passports. If you follow me.
On the contrary, someone is probably speculating or hoping this visual change is a distraction to mollify those who care so they don't get worked up about some soft leave concession as they got their damn blue passports back by jingo . I'd think that unlikely, but that's another reason the impact is nil.
Now, I'm not saying my reaction is logical, but it's how I feel. All my passports have been burgundy, and I have no emotional connection to a blue passport. They're an image of the past, like steam trains and polio.
It seems like a cr@p, backward-looking change designed to placate people whose idealised memories of the past are better than the present. The burgundy ones even *look* better IMO, when comparing my dad's old blue ones with the latest.0 -
You mean like this?Sean_F said:
The James Bond franchise should be put to rest.TheScreamingEagles said:If you were ever in doubt Mrs May is egregiously unfit for high office....
Theresa May has backed calls for a woman to play James Bond, revealing she was looking forward to watching Jodie Whittaker as the first female Doctor Who on Christmas Day.
The prime minister said she enjoyed watching the BBC programme and heralded the decision to give the iconic role to Whittaker as “girl power”.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/22/leading-lady-theresa-may-calls-for-woman-to-play-james-bond
If people want a female spy, then create something original.
https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/spy_2015/0 -
It's part of their self-image to see themselves as the Beautiful People, who were inexplicably outvoted by people who live in unfashionable places.DavidL said:
Of course it doesn't matter. But it has remainers calling people "orcish" and "reactionary cretins" this morning as well as suggesting we will be living on rats after Brexit. I sometimes wonder how on earth the vote was as close as it was. Who on earth would want to support a cause backed by people like that?kle4 said:
I don't think it matters. Even if it is pandering (which it is) it's pandering that harms no one, and as such won't be indicative of how much pandering that might actually matter there will be. No one would think 'we'll I wasn't going to pander and do x, but we did change the passports so we're committed'. It won't affect what else is being done.DavidL said:
Not sure I care at all. But hey, whatever floats their boat.kle4 said:
A bit too contrived I think. Some people might care too much about passports, but clearly others care too much about peopLe who care about passports.Scott_P said:@seanjonesqc: The red, white and blue #Brexit turns out to be putting the economy in the red to get blue passports to please white people.
I care too much about those who care too much about people who care too much about passports. If you follow me.
On the contrary, someone is probably speculating or hoping this visual change is a distraction to mollify those who care so they don't get worked up about some soft leave concession as they got their damn blue passports back by jingo . I'd think that unlikely, but that's another reason the impact is nil.0 -
Because we’d end up with Passport McPassportface?tlg86 said:Maybe the government should have had a competition for designing the new passport with an online vote to decide the winner.
I haven't had a good look at the passports of other countries, but I have seen the US passport and I quite like the features on the pages. 0 -
I hate to break it to you, but conservatism is about preserving and respecting history, traditions, and cultural icons, at the human level, just as the left is interested in conversation at the ecological level. Incidentally, the reason the latter hate the former is because they see it as an obstacle to remoulding society to their chosen ideology, and vice-versa. But the human conservative instinct is quite universal.AlastairMeeks said:
It's not even the right shade of blue. If the government wants to go full reactionary, I could get behind scrapping commemorative stamps and returning to producing only definitive issues. Otherwise, I'd prefer the government to be looking forward rather than harking back to a past that was never as good as nostalgia would have you believe.Mortimer said:
By the looks of this morning, u-turning on the policy would be pandering to militant Remainers.AlastairMeeks said:
Symbols matter. The symbolism here is of a government pandering to reactionary cretins. Not a good look.Morris_Dancer said:*raises an eyebrow*
"I don't care about the colour of passports" say people who keep talking about the colour of passports...
You can have progress, and be forward-looking, at the same time as cherishing and nurturing the best of your past.
It's not an either-or choice.0 -
The EU builders understand the power of symbolism too of course, if not yet as successfully. They have a decent flag and have attemted anthems and other efforts.Charles said:
I am mid way through a fascinating documentary on Hamilton (fun fact for the day: he was actually born on Nevis and is probably their most famous citizen to date) - he understood the importance of symbols when it comes to nation building.AlastairMeeks said:
Symbols matter. The symbolism here is of a government pandering to reactionary cretins. Not a good look.Morris_Dancer said:*raises an eyebrow*
"I don't care about the colour of passports" say people who keep talking about the colour of passports...
You can sneer at them as being "cretinous" but fundamentally the people have voted for Britain to leave the EU, and this is part of that.0 -
Well, I hope so.Casino_Royale said:
It has nothing to do with that. No-one is going to make anyone queue up at an "Aliens" counter again. Not in this day and age.Cyclefree said:
I do not remember the old passports. I do remember having to queue up at the "Aliens" channel when coming back to England with my Italian mother as I travelled on her passport.Casino_Royale said:
Absolute nonsense.AlastairMeeks said:
Symbols matter. The symbolism here is of a government pandering to reactionary cretins. Not a good look.Morris_Dancer said:*raises an eyebrow*
"I don't care about the colour of passports" say people who keep talking about the colour of passports...
But, the fact it annoys people like you tells me it is the right thing to do.
"Aliens", for heaven's sake.
Changing the colour of the passports is a triviality. But it seems to matter to people who are nostalgic for a time when this is how Britain appeared to those who were married to and mothers of its citizens. It is, frankly, a nostalgia I can do without.
There are many reasons for being critical of the EU and there are also good reasons for thinking that Britain may be better off, depending on what you value, outside the EU. But doing it because you want to change the colour of your passport is pathetic. In my view.
But some EU nationals here do feel that they have been made to feel alien in a way which they never expected, especially in a country which generally has had a good record in welcoming foreigners. I regret that. It is not a good look, especially if one wants to be proud of British values.
It is why I wrote this header recently - http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2017/12/15/to-get-the-tone-right-it-has-to-come-from-the-top/0 -
There will be a compromise, as I've always said, and life will go on.SouthamObserver said:
Yep, I like the idea of them. Symbolism is important and the British like their exceptionalism. If ways to acknowledge this are found, then it will allow a lot of technical alignment with the EU in vitally important areas that most people really are not that bothered about - such as the role of the ECJ and international trading relationships.Casino_Royale said:
You've said more than once that even you'd be pleased to have these back though.SouthamObserver said:
Well that is genuinely good news. For all her recent pragmatism the worry about May is that she still craves the approval of the right-wing press a little bit too much. His hilarious conversion to Brexit notwithstanding, Hunt gives the impression of understanding that the Tories face a long time out of power if they pursue much more than a symbolic, blue passports departure from the EU.Mortimer said:
Do you know many Tory members?SouthamObserver said:Hunt is being very obvious about his ambition. His Brexit conversion was magnificently transparent. But with him in charge, it's likely we would essentially leave in name only, so of all the possibles he looks the most attractive by far. I suspect that may count against him among the membership, though.
I do. And Hunt has the least negatives of almost all the runners and riders.
We still need to go for pint, by the way.0 -
Sadly Atomic Blonde was a crap film.Sean_F said:
The James Bond franchise should be put to rest.TheScreamingEagles said:If you were ever in doubt Mrs May is egregiously unfit for high office....
Theresa May has backed calls for a woman to play James Bond, revealing she was looking forward to watching Jodie Whittaker as the first female Doctor Who on Christmas Day.
The prime minister said she enjoyed watching the BBC programme and heralded the decision to give the iconic role to Whittaker as “girl power”.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/22/leading-lady-theresa-may-calls-for-woman-to-play-james-bond
If people want a female spy, then create something original.0 -
I know. If they weren't so consistently obnoxious pity would be appropriate.Sean_F said:
It's part of their self-image to see themselves as the Beautiful People, who were inexplicably outvoted by people who live in unfashionable places.DavidL said:
Of course it doesn't matter. But it has remainers calling people "orcish" and "reactionary cretins" this morning as well as suggesting we will be living on rats after Brexit. I sometimes wonder how on earth the vote was as close as it was. Who on earth would want to support a cause backed by people like that?kle4 said:
I don't think it matters. Even if it is pandering (which it is) it's pandering that harms no one, and as such won't be indicative of how much pandering that might actually matter there will be. No one would think 'we'll I wasn't going to pander and do x, but we did change the passports so we're committed'. It won't affect what else is being done.DavidL said:
Not sure I care at all. But hey, whatever floats their boat.kle4 said:
A bit too contrived I think. Some people might care too much about passports, but clearly others care too much about peopLe who care about passports.Scott_P said:@seanjonesqc: The red, white and blue #Brexit turns out to be putting the economy in the red to get blue passports to please white people.
I care too much about those who care too much about people who care too much about passports. If you follow me.
On the contrary, someone is probably speculating or hoping this visual change is a distraction to mollify those who care so they don't get worked up about some soft leave concession as they got their damn blue passports back by jingo . I'd think that unlikely, but that's another reason the impact is nil.0 -
That's what I'm hoping.SouthamObserver said:
If I were part of a government wanting to dampen down cries of betrayal and surrender from Brexiteers in advance of the second phase Brexit negotiations blue passports is pretty much exactly what I would come up with.AlastairMeeks said:
Symbols matter. The symbolism here is of a government pandering to reactionary cretins. Not a good look.Morris_Dancer said:*raises an eyebrow*
"I don't care about the colour of passports" say people who keep talking about the colour of passports...0 -
0
-
The thought had occurred, though why bury it in pre Xmas news in that case?SouthamObserver said:
If I were part of a government wanting to dampen down cries of betrayal and surrender from Brexiteers in advance of the second phase Brexit negotiations blue passports is pretty much exactly what I would come up with.AlastairMeeks said:
Symbols matter. The symbolism here is of a government pandering to reactionary cretins. Not a good look.Morris_Dancer said:*raises an eyebrow*
"I don't care about the colour of passports" say people who keep talking about the colour of passports...0 -
Your thread headers are always excellent.Cyclefree said:
Well, I hope so.Casino_Royale said:
It has nothing to do with that. No-one is going to make anyone queue up at an "Aliens" counter again. Not in this day and age.Cyclefree said:
I do not remember the old passports. I do remember having to queue up at the "Aliens" channel when coming back to England with my Italian mother as I travelled on her passport.Casino_Royale said:
Absolute nonsense.AlastairMeeks said:
Symbols matter. The symbolism here is of a government pandering to reactionary cretins. Not a good look.Morris_Dancer said:*raises an eyebrow*
"I don't care about the colour of passports" say people who keep talking about the colour of passports...
But, the fact it annoys people like you tells me it is the right thing to do.
"Aliens", for heaven's sake.
Changing the colour of the passports is a triviality. But it seems to matter to people who are nostalgic for a time when this is how Britain appeared to those who were married to and mothers of its citizens. It is, frankly, a nostalgia I can do without.
There are many reasons for being critical of the EU and there are also good reasons for thinking that Britain may be better off, depending on what you value, outside the EU. But doing it because you want to change the colour of your passport is pathetic. In my view.
But some EU nationals here do feel that they have been made to feel alien in a way which they never expected, especially in a country which generally has had a good record in welcoming foreigners. I regret that. It is not a good look, especially if one wants to be proud of British values.
It is why I wrote this header recently - http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2017/12/15/to-get-the-tone-right-it-has-to-come-from-the-top/
My wife was Bulgarian (she considers herself British first, now) and had a not dissimilar experience in the late 1990s. But, she has yet to meet (and I) EU nationals that feel that way. The ones she does are British people who tell her that's how EU nationals feel.
She never hears it directly.
I always make a point of listening to those with very different life experiences to me. Provided they don't do it in a way which annoys me too much, which I admit is perhaps a subjective thing to judge..0 -
It's a very big part of it. Maybe the biggest, along with a few around-the-edges changes to freedom of movement. The rest is detail and will not matter that much to the vast majority of voters.Charles said:
I am mid way through a fascinating documentary on Hamilton (fun fact for the day: he was actually born on Nevis and is probably their most famous citizen to date) - he understood the importance of symbols when it comes to nation building.AlastairMeeks said:
Symbols matter. The symbolism here is of a government pandering to reactionary cretins. Not a good look.Morris_Dancer said:*raises an eyebrow*
"I don't care about the colour of passports" say people who keep talking about the colour of passports...
You can sneer at them as being "cretinous" but fundamentally the people have voted for Britain to leave the EU, and this is part of that.
0 -
I couldn't give a monkeys about passport colour, but I don't understand the frothing anger from some quarters online just because we're changing it. By all means continue to get worked up by more significent aspects of Brexit but if changing the colour of your passport is making you this angry then perhaps it's time to have a long think about your life.SouthamObserver said:
If I were part of a government wanting to dampen down cries of betrayal and surrender from Brexiteers in advance of the second phase Brexit negotiations blue passports is pretty much exactly what I would come up with.AlastairMeeks said:
Symbols matter. The symbolism here is of a government pandering to reactionary cretins. Not a good look.Morris_Dancer said:*raises an eyebrow*
"I don't care about the colour of passports" say people who keep talking about the colour of passports...0 -
How many of us Brexiteers on this thread do you think do either of those things?Dura_Ace said:
I think it's a given that it's going to be popular. Among people who smoke cigarettes and have writing all over their clothes.Casino_Royale said:
Not really.Dura_Ace said:
It's not the colour of thedocument itself that's interesting; just that it's one more step in the march toward a particularly tawdry and banal iteration of nationalism espoused by orcish leavers.Morris_Dancer said:*raises an eyebrow*
"I don't care about the colour of passports" say people who keep talking about the colour of passports...
It just reminds some Remainers that Brexit is still happening, and they're worried it might be popular.
There's as much prejudice on your side as there is ours.0 -
This isn't conservatism, it's reactionary tosh designed to appeal to the charlatans who wear union jack boxer shorts and think that somehow makes them more British than others.Casino_Royale said:
I hate to break it to you, but conservatism is about preserving and respecting history, traditions, and cultural icons, at the human level, just as the left is interested in conversation at the ecological level. Incidentally, the reason the latter hate the former is because they see it as an obstacle to remoulding society to their chosen ideology, and vice-versa. But the human conservative instinct is quite universal.AlastairMeeks said:
It's not even the right shade of blue. If the government wants to go full reactionary, I could get behind scrapping commemorative stamps and returning to producing only definitive issues. Otherwise, I'd prefer the government to be looking forward rather than harking back to a past that was never as good as nostalgia would have you believe.Mortimer said:
By the looks of this morning, u-turning on the policy would be pandering to militant Remainers.AlastairMeeks said:
Symbols matter. The symbolism here is of a government pandering to reactionary cretins. Not a good look.Morris_Dancer said:*raises an eyebrow*
"I don't care about the colour of passports" say people who keep talking about the colour of passports...
You can have progress, and be forward-looking, at the same time as cherishing and nurturing the best of your past.
It's not an either-or choice.
The government has, yet again, missed an opportunity to move on after Brexit. If an entirely new design had been produced for the passport, looking forward to the future, it would have been a sign that the government was looking to build a nation for all the people rather than a few diehards who won't actually get a passport in the first place. But the government's priorities are to appease the extremists rather than unite the country. Foolishly shortsighted.0 -
I think it's an easy headline win after the Damien Green resignation. They give that story 36 hours and then have the blue passport stored up as a Christmas present to change the narrative.Barnesian said:
That's what I'm hoping.SouthamObserver said:
If I were part of a government wanting to dampen down cries of betrayal and surrender from Brexiteers in advance of the second phase Brexit negotiations blue passports is pretty much exactly what I would come up with.AlastairMeeks said:
Symbols matter. The symbolism here is of a government pandering to reactionary cretins. Not a good look.Morris_Dancer said:*raises an eyebrow*
"I don't care about the colour of passports" say people who keep talking about the colour of passports...0 -
The old British passport looked like a tallyman's notebook - ghastly thing. I much prefer the smaller burgundy design, which is neat, portable and exudes a kind of understated venerability. We British do seem to have a strange affection for the cheap and nasty.0
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What on earth gives you the impression that I am angry about the colour of my next passport being different? I am much more interested in what my passport allows me to do. And on that front I am a lot more optimistic than I was a few short weeks ago.Brom said:
I couldn't give a monkeys about passport colour, but I don't understand the frothing anger from some quarters online just because we're changing it. By all means continue to get worked up by more significent aspects of Brexit but if changing the colour of your passport is making you this angry then perhaps it's time to have a long think about your life.SouthamObserver said:
If I were part of a government wanting to dampen down cries of betrayal and surrender from Brexiteers in advance of the second phase Brexit negotiations blue passports is pretty much exactly what I would come up with.AlastairMeeks said:
Symbols matter. The symbolism here is of a government pandering to reactionary cretins. Not a good look.Morris_Dancer said:*raises an eyebrow*
"I don't care about the colour of passports" say people who keep talking about the colour of passports...
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That lowers my opinion of Theresa May.Sean_F said:
The James Bond franchise should be put to rest.TheScreamingEagles said:If you were ever in doubt Mrs May is egregiously unfit for high office....
Theresa May has backed calls for a woman to play James Bond, revealing she was looking forward to watching Jodie Whittaker as the first female Doctor Who on Christmas Day.
The prime minister said she enjoyed watching the BBC programme and heralded the decision to give the iconic role to Whittaker as “girl power”.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/22/leading-lady-theresa-may-calls-for-woman-to-play-james-bond
If people want a female spy, then create something original.
I love the Bond franchise, have all the books, and enjoy almost all the films. I always look forward to the next one.
But, if that's the fate that awaits it, then it's time the whole thing ended.0 -
The soundtrack was awesome though.kle4 said:
Sadly Atomic Blonde was a crap film.Sean_F said:
The James Bond franchise should be put to rest.TheScreamingEagles said:If you were ever in doubt Mrs May is egregiously unfit for high office....
Theresa May has backed calls for a woman to play James Bond, revealing she was looking forward to watching Jodie Whittaker as the first female Doctor Who on Christmas Day.
The prime minister said she enjoyed watching the BBC programme and heralded the decision to give the iconic role to Whittaker as “girl power”.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/22/leading-lady-theresa-may-calls-for-woman-to-play-james-bond
If people want a female spy, then create something original.0 -
ICAO standards on machine readable passports mean we won't be reverting back to the old carboard ones that looked like they were made by Valerie Singleton with a hangover. They will be just like the current ones except, er, blue.0
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My first experience of this issue was in Bill Brysons Notes from a small island.(or neither here nor there). He hated the look of the flimsy burgundy passports, and I never understood why. (At the time I shouldn't think he had one hinself)Stark_Dawning said:The old British passport looked like a tallyman's notebook - ghastly thing. I much prefer the smaller burgundy design, which is neat, portable and exudes a kind of understated venerability. We British do seem to have a strange affection for the cheap and nasty.
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You said less than six months ago you didn't care what colour your passport is. Non-committal, agnostic, blase.AlastairMeeks said:
This isn't conservatism, it's reactionary tosh designed to appeal to the charlatans who wear union jack boxer shorts and think that somehow makes them more British than others.Casino_Royale said:
I hate to break it to you, but conservatism is about preserving and respecting history, traditions, and cultural icons, at the human level, just as the left is interested in conversation at the ecological level. Incidentally, the reason the latter hate the former is because they see it as an obstacle to remoulding society to their chosen ideology, and vice-versa. But the human conservative instinct is quite universal.AlastairMeeks said:
It's not even the right shade of blue. If the government wants to go full reactionary, I could get behind scrapping commemorative stamps and returning to producing only definitive issues. Otherwise, I'd prefer the government to be looking forward rather than harking back to a past that was never as good as nostalgia would have you believe.Mortimer said:
By the looks of this morning, u-turning on the policy would be pandering to militant Remainers.AlastairMeeks said:
Symbols matter. The symbolism here is of a government pandering to reactionary cretins. Not a good look.Morris_Dancer said:*raises an eyebrow*
"I don't care about the colour of passports" say people who keep talking about the colour of passports...
You can have progress, and be forward-looking, at the same time as cherishing and nurturing the best of your past.
It's not an either-or choice.
The government has, yet again, missed an opportunity to move on after Brexit. If an entirely new design had been produced for the passport, looking forward to the future, it would have been a sign that the government was looking to build a nation for all the people rather than a few diehards who won't actually get a passport in the first place. But the government's priorities are to appease the extremists rather than unite the country. Foolishly shortsighted.
Now, it's a disaster.
Personally, I think you are just suspect of any post-Brexit initiative that Leavers warmly welcome, or enjoy. That just cuts right through you.
It's a redesign of a new passport in the traditional colour. Nothing more.
The idea it's extreme is swivel-eyed barmy.0 -
Soundtrack, action, actors, all good. Charlize theron kicking arse? Should be a winner right there. The writing was terrible though.TheScreamingEagles said:
The soundtrack was awesome though.kle4 said:
Sadly Atomic Blonde was a crap film.Sean_F said:
The James Bond franchise should be put to rest.TheScreamingEagles said:If you were ever in doubt Mrs May is egregiously unfit for high office....
Theresa May has backed calls for a woman to play James Bond, revealing she was looking forward to watching Jodie Whittaker as the first female Doctor Who on Christmas Day.
The prime minister said she enjoyed watching the BBC programme and heralded the decision to give the iconic role to Whittaker as “girl power”.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/22/leading-lady-theresa-may-calls-for-woman-to-play-james-bond
If people want a female spy, then create something original.0 -
When have British passports ever been the colour of the EU flag before?Casino_Royale said:
You said less than six months ago you didn't care what colour your passport is. Non-committal, agnostic, blase.AlastairMeeks said:
This isn't conservatism, it's reactionary tosh designed to appeal to the charlatans who wear union jack boxer shorts and think that somehow makes them more British than others.Casino_Royale said:
I hate to break it to you, but conservatism is about preserving and respecting history, traditions, and cultural icons, at the human level, just as the left is interested in conversation at the ecological level. Incidentally, the reason the latter hate the former is because they see it as an obstacle to remoulding society to their chosen ideology, and vice-versa. But the human conservative instinct is quite universal.AlastairMeeks said:
It's not even the right shade of blue. If the government wants to go full reactionary, I could get behind scrapping commemorative stamps and returning to producing only definitive issues. Otherwise, I'd prefer the government to be looking forward rather than harking back to a past that was never as good as nostalgia would have you believe.Mortimer said:
By the looks of this morning, u-turning on the policy would be pandering to militant Remainers.AlastairMeeks said:
Symbols matter. The symbolism here is of a government pandering to reactionary cretins. Not a good look.Morris_Dancer said:*raises an eyebrow*
"I don't care about the colour of passports" say people who keep talking about the colour of passports...
You can have progress, and be forward-looking, at the same time as cherishing and nurturing the best of your past.
It's not an either-or choice.
The government has, yet again, missed an opportunity to move on after Brexit. If an entirely new design had been produced for the passport, looking forward to the future, it would have been a sign that the government was looking to build a nation for all the people rather than a few diehards who won't actually get a passport in the first place. But the government's priorities are to appease the extremists rather than unite the country. Foolishly shortsighted.
Now, it's a disaster.
Personally, I think you are just suspect of any post-Brexit initiative that Leavers warmly welcome, or enjoy. That just cuts right through you.
It's a redesign of a new passport in the traditional colour. Nothing more.
The idea it's extreme is swivel-eyed barmy.0 -
You prefer it because its mandated by the European Union, and you see the latter as a symbol of Brexit.Stark_Dawning said:The old British passport looked like a tallyman's notebook - ghastly thing. I much prefer the smaller burgundy design, which is neat, portable and exudes a kind of understated venerability. We British do seem to have a strange affection for the cheap and nasty.
That's it.0 -
I agree.SouthamObserver said:
It's a very big part of it. Maybe the biggest, along with a few around-the-edges changes to freedom of movement. The rest is detail and will not matter that much to the vast majority of voters.Charles said:
I am mid way through a fascinating documentary on Hamilton (fun fact for the day: he was actually born on Nevis and is probably their most famous citizen to date) - he understood the importance of symbols when it comes to nation building.AlastairMeeks said:
Symbols matter. The symbolism here is of a government pandering to reactionary cretins. Not a good look.Morris_Dancer said:*raises an eyebrow*
"I don't care about the colour of passports" say people who keep talking about the colour of passports...
You can sneer at them as being "cretinous" but fundamentally the people have voted for Britain to leave the EU, and this is part of that.0 -
...blimey..its a blue passport for gods sake..AlastairMeeks said:
This isn't conservatism, it's reactionary tosh designed to appeal to the charlatans who wear union jack boxer shorts and think that somehow makes them more British than others.Casino_Royale said:
I hate to break it to you, but conservatism is about preserving and respecting history, traditions, and cultural icons, at the human level, just as the left is interested in conversation at the ecological level. Incidentally, the reason the latter hate the former is because they see it as an obstacle to remoulding society to their chosen ideology, and vice-versa. But the human conservative instinct is quite universal.AlastairMeeks said:
It's not even the right shade of blue. If the government wants to go full reactionary, I could get behind scrapping commemorative stamps and returning to producing only definitive issues. Otherwise, I'd prefer the government to be looking forward rather than harking back to a past that was never as good as nostalgia would have you believe.Mortimer said:
By the looks of this morning, u-turning on the policy would be pandering to militant Remainers.AlastairMeeks said:
Symbols matter. The symbolism here is of a government pandering to reactionary cretins. Not a good look.Morris_Dancer said:*raises an eyebrow*
"I don't care about the colour of passports" say people who keep talking about the colour of passports...
You can have progress, and be forward-looking, at the same time as cherishing and nurturing the best of your past.
It's not an either-or choice.
The government has, yet again, missed an opportunity to move on after Brexit. If an entirely new design had been produced for the passport, looking forward to the future, it would have been a sign that the government was looking to build a nation for all the people rather than a few diehards who won't actually get a passport in the first place. But the government's priorities are to appease the extremists rather than unite the country. Foolishly shortsighted.0 -
Has Rajoy announced new Catalonian elections to resolve the division there yet?0
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http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/one-year-passport-to-be-abolished-1421597.html Britain could go back to the one year visitors passport .They were cheap and looked crap, but popular for tourists visiting Europe.0
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It's an ongoing story that can be resurrected at any time. And for now it gets Damien Green off the front pages.kle4 said:
The thought had occurred, though why bury it in pre Xmas news in that case?SouthamObserver said:
If I were part of a government wanting to dampen down cries of betrayal and surrender from Brexiteers in advance of the second phase Brexit negotiations blue passports is pretty much exactly what I would come up with.AlastairMeeks said:
Symbols matter. The symbolism here is of a government pandering to reactionary cretins. Not a good look.Morris_Dancer said:*raises an eyebrow*
"I don't care about the colour of passports" say people who keep talking about the colour of passports...
One thing, though: is the blue that is on the front of the Sun the actual proposed colour? If so, it is literally nothing like the old passports we used to have.
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Yes, that's a clever PR move to keep the debate running.SouthamObserver said:
It's an ongoing story that can be resurrected at any time. And for now it gets Damien Green off the front pages.kle4 said:
The thought had occurred, though why bury it in pre Xmas news in that case?SouthamObserver said:
If I were part of a government wanting to dampen down cries of betrayal and surrender from Brexiteers in advance of the second phase Brexit negotiations blue passports is pretty much exactly what I would come up with.AlastairMeeks said:
Symbols matter. The symbolism here is of a government pandering to reactionary cretins. Not a good look.Morris_Dancer said:*raises an eyebrow*
"I don't care about the colour of passports" say people who keep talking about the colour of passports...
One thing, though: is the blue that is on the front of the Sun the actual proposed colour? If so, it is literally nothing like the old passports we used to have.0 -
https://twitter.com/EULondonMark/status/944128297591541760Casino_Royale said:
You prefer it because its mandated by the European Union, and you see the latter as a symbol of Brexit.Stark_Dawning said:The old British passport looked like a tallyman's notebook - ghastly thing. I much prefer the smaller burgundy design, which is neat, portable and exudes a kind of understated venerability. We British do seem to have a strange affection for the cheap and nasty.
That's it.
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Have they picked a good Conservative blue ?SouthamObserver said:
It's an ongoing story that can be resurrected at any time. And for now it gets Damien Green off the front pages.kle4 said:
The thought had occurred, though why bury it in pre Xmas news in that case?SouthamObserver said:
If I were part of a government wanting to dampen down cries of betrayal and surrender from Brexiteers in advance of the second phase Brexit negotiations blue passports is pretty much exactly what I would come up with.AlastairMeeks said:
Symbols matter. The symbolism here is of a government pandering to reactionary cretins. Not a good look.Morris_Dancer said:*raises an eyebrow*
"I don't care about the colour of passports" say people who keep talking about the colour of passports...
One thing, though: is the blue that is on the front of the Sun the actual proposed colour? If so, it is literally nothing like the old passports we used to have.0 -
Hunt can do radio interviews well, but on television -the medium which all successful politicians since the 1960s have had to master -he appears shifty and uncontrollable. He comes across as a sweaty browed cold fish, and is despised by public sector workers, and his record on the NHS is a gift to the Labour Party. His name also allows his opponents to become "poetic" in their criticisms, and would go down a bomb on university campuses.0
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Not you in particular, more the Guardian comments section (and maybe Scott P in fairness). To someone of my age it's not iconic and I couldn't care less, but it should not cause this level of resentment.SouthamObserver said:
What on earth gives you the impression that I am angry about the colour of my next passport being different? I am much more interested in what my passport allows me to do. And on that front I am a lot more optimistic than I was a few short weeks ago.Brom said:
I couldn't give a monkeys about passport colour, but I don't understand the frothing anger from some quarters online just because we're changing it. By all means continue to get worked up by more significent aspects of Brexit but if changing the colour of your passport is making you this angry then perhaps it's time to have a long think about your life.SouthamObserver said:
If I were part of a government wanting to dampen down cries of betrayal and surrender from Brexiteers in advance of the second phase Brexit negotiations blue passports is pretty much exactly what I would come up with.AlastairMeeks said:
Symbols matter. The symbolism here is of a government pandering to reactionary cretins. Not a good look.Morris_Dancer said:*raises an eyebrow*
"I don't care about the colour of passports" say people who keep talking about the colour of passports...0 -
Looks like a mock up, as it doesn't look new. If it is right then it really is a new design looking forward for the country and not pandering to some leavers by replicating the old, just as some have said they should do.SouthamObserver said:
It's an ongoing story that can be resurrected at any time. And for now it gets Damien Green off the front pages.kle4 said:
The thought had occurred, though why bury it in pre Xmas news in that case?SouthamObserver said:
If I were part of a government wanting to dampen down cries of betrayal and surrender from Brexiteers in advance of the second phase Brexit negotiations blue passports is pretty much exactly what I would come up with.AlastairMeeks said:
Symbols matter. The symbolism here is of a government pandering to reactionary cretins. Not a good look.Morris_Dancer said:*raises an eyebrow*
"I don't care about the colour of passports" say people who keep talking about the colour of passports...
One thing, though: is the blue that is on the front of the Sun the actual proposed colour? If so, it is literally nothing like the old passports we used to have.0 -
And the EU, which has its origins in the 1957 Treaty of Rome?JosiasJessop said:They're an image of the past, like steam trains and polio.
It seems like a cr@p, backward-looking change designed to placate people whose idealised memories of the past are better than the present.0 -
Casino_Royale said:
Well I have heard it from EU nationals. Some of them members of my own family.Cyclefree said:
Your thread headers are always excellent.Casino_Royale said:
Well, I hope so.Cyclefree said:
It has nothing to do with that. No-one is going to make anyone queue up at an "Aliens" counter again. Not in this day and age.Casino_Royale said:AlastairMeeks said:Morris_Dancer said:
But some EU nationals here do feel that they have been made to feel alien in a way which they never expected, especially in a country which generally has had a good record in welcoming foreigners. I regret that. It is not a good look, especially if one wants to be proud of British values.
It is why I wrote this header recently - http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2017/12/15/to-get-the-tone-right-it-has-to-come-from-the-top/
My wife was Bulgarian (she considers herself British first, now) and had a not dissimilar experience in the late 1990s. But, she has yet to meet (and I) EU nationals that feel that way. The ones she does are British people who tell her that's how EU nationals feel.
She never hears it directly.
I always make a point of listening to those with very different life experiences to me. Provided they don't do it in a way which annoys me too much, which I admit is perhaps a subjective thing to judge..
There is a sadness in the reaction. A sadness that somehow some of the Britain they admired was being lost in a way, that rather than opening itself up to the world - which is what some on the Brexit side want (and I accept that they are genuine in this) - it is closing in on itself and retreating to a view that Britain is best and everyone else is a filthy foreigner.
That may be unfair. But it is a feeling that is there. And I find myself sharing it in part, despite the fact that I am not at all, to put it mildly, a great fan of the EU in its current form, precisely because of my own mixed background and my experiences as a child and growing up in two countries with very strong links to a third.
Britain risks giving the impression that the ideal Briton is someone like Farage. That may be unfair. But it is a risk. It is not the Britain that I want. Nor is it the Britain that I want my children to live in.
Symbols do matter. You may see the blue passport as a sign of resurgence of British values. But please accept that others may see it in a less optimistic way.0
