politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Farage’s man’s refusal to admit defeat means Betfair Alabama p

FPT:

Cheap modern books are badly produced. The paper doesn't have sufficient rag and then bindings are most often glued, rather than sewn.

Recommend private press books if people want books to last.

*Dusts the shelf of sixteenth century books in leather bindings and perfect condition*

Even Trump has conceded Alabama so Moore will eventually have to bow to the inevitable

TBF I suppose Betfair can't make generous assumptions like, say, Paddypower, because it has customers on both sides of the bets. Perhaps there's a punter with £10K on Moore still hoping who would sue Betfair if they decided he'd lost before it was official.

HYUFD said:

rcs1000 said:

Charles said:

DecrepitJohnL said:

justin124 said:

I am happy to be corrected on this, but I do get the impression that prior to World War 2 the obtaining of a 'place' at Oxbridge - as distinct from a Scholarship or Exhibition - did not require an applicant to excel academically to anything like the extent that has been required in recent decades.In that era Oxbridge appears to have been very largely a finishing school for public schoolboys - with the exception of the Scholars and Exhibitioners who often came from the grammar schools.

Yes, you just had to want to go, and have a rich daddy. The same is true more recently of public schools. Even some Etonians lament that the rich clots' places are now given to geeks and nerds.

Eton isn't just about an academic education or league tables. It's an organic community, and continuity is part of that

When I went to Cambridge from my state school, the Old Etonians I met were very smart indeed.

Also this:

https://youtu.be/9FtZkVRkusQ

Eton, along with Harrow, Winchester and Westminster is considered to be one of the top 4 public schools (and Eton probably the most academic of those). So an Eton and Oxbridge education is considered the best you can have in the UK so it is no surprise so many with that background have become PM.

It is a surprise it so many, even being the best. It's such a high proportion.

On topic, he's Farage''s man? Cheeky.

Seriously though, are Moore's views really what Farage supports? He's been in the wrong country.

Mortimer said:

Are we expecting polling tonight?

Record high for Sinn Fein in this one.

https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/942069289024212993

williamglenn said:

Mortimer said:

Are we expecting polling tonight?

Record high for Sinn Fein in this one.

https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/942069289024212993

Ugh.

kle4 said:

HYUFD said:

rcs1000 said:

Charles said:

DecrepitJohnL said:

justin124 said:

I am happy to be corrected on this, but I do get the impression that prior to World War 2 the obtaining of a 'place' at Oxbridge - as distinct from a Scholarship or Exhibition - did not require an applicant to excel academically to anything like the extent that has been required in recent decades.In that era Oxbridge appears to have been very largely a finishing school for public schoolboys - with the exception of the Scholars and Exhibitioners who often came from the grammar schools.

Yes, you just had to want to go, and have a rich daddy. The same is true more recently of public schools. Even some Etonians lament that the rich clots' places are now given to geeks and nerds.

Eton isn't just about an academic education or league tables. It's an organic community, and continuity is part of that

When I went to Cambridge from my state school, the Old Etonians I met were very smart indeed.

Also this:

https://youtu.be/9FtZkVRkusQ

Eton, along with Harrow, Winchester and Westminster is considered to be one of the top 4 public schools (and Eton probably the most academic of those). So an Eton and Oxbridge education is considered the best you can have in the UK so it is no surprise so many with that background have become PM.

It is a surprise it so many, even being the best. It's such a high proportion.

On topic, he's Farage''s man? Cheeky.

Seriously though, are Moore's views really what Farage supports? He's been in the wrong country.

Cameron was the first Etonian PM since Home though in 1964, Churchill was the last Harrovian PM. Earl Russell was the last PM from Westminster (though Clegg was also educated there as a Deputy PM) and Henry Addington the last PM from Winchester and you have to go back to the 19th century for them.

NickPalmer said:

TBF I suppose Betfair can't make generous assumptions like, say, Paddypower, because it has customers on both sides of the bets. Perhaps there's a punter with £10K on Moore still hoping who would sue Betfair if they decided he'd lost before it was official.

Yes, I'm waiting for £100 but I don't think Betfair are being unreasonable here, for the reason stated, and we have had surprise reversals before.

Moore on the other hand is being a dick. But then if he wasn't one, he probably wouldn't have lost.

NickPalmer said:

TBF I suppose Betfair can't make generous assumptions like, say, Paddypower, because it has customers on both sides of the bets. Perhaps there's a punter with £10K on Moore still hoping who would sue Betfair if they decided he'd lost before it was official.

Yes, it’s the fundamental difference between a traditional bookie and an exchange.

Paddy can (and do) write off early payouts on the “wrong” side of a bet to a marketing budget somewhere, but it’s their own money to spend as they please. Betfair are dealing in other people’s money on both sides of the event.

HYUFD said:

rcs1000 said:

Charles said:

DecrepitJohnL said:

justin124 said:

I am happy to be corrected on this, but I do get the impression that prior to World War 2 the obtaining of a 'place' at Oxbridge - as distinct from a Scholarship or Exhibition - did not require an applicant to excel academically to anything like the extent that has been required in recent decades.In that era Oxbridge appears to have been very largely a finishing school for public schoolboys - with the exception of the Scholars and Exhibitioners who often came from the grammar schools.

Yes, you just had to want to go, and have a rich daddy. The same is true more recently of public schools. Even some Etonians lament that the rich clots' places are now given to geeks and nerds.

Eton isn't just about an academic education or league tables. It's an organic community, and continuity is part of that

When I went to Cambridge from my state school, the Old Etonians I met were very smart indeed.

Also this:

https://youtu.be/9FtZkVRkusQ

Eton, along with Harrow, Winchester and Westminster is considered to be one of the top 4 public schools (and Eton probably the most academic of those). So an Eton and Oxbridge education is considered the best you can have in the UK so it is no surprise so many with that background have become PM.

What about St Paul's?

HYUFD said:

williamglenn said:

Mortimer said:

Are we expecting polling tonight?

Record high for Sinn Fein in this one.

https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/942069289024212993

So DUP still ahead then despite everything and the suspension, plus of course SF can only work with the DUP under the GFA.

Adams is making a pitch for the let's-join-the-Republic-and-stay-in-the-EU vote. Can't see it happening but might be worth a couple of percentage points in the polls.

Mr. HYUFD, bad form to wrap up the date and the concept in a single question.

HYUFD said:

rcs1000 said:

HYUFD said:

rcs1000 said:

Charles said:

DecrepitJohnL said:

justin124 said:

I am happy to be corrected on this, but I do get the impression that prior to World War 2 the obtaining of a 'place' at Oxbridge - as distinct from a Scholarship or Exhibition - did not require an applicant to excel academically to anything like the extent that has been required in recent decades.In that era Oxbridge appears to have been very largely a finishing school for public schoolboys - with the exception of the Scholars and Exhibitioners who often came from the grammar schools.

Yes, you just had to want to go, and have a rich daddy. The same is true more recently of public schools. Even some Etonians lament that the rich clots' places are now given to geeks and nerds.

Eton isn't just about an academic education or league tables. It's an organic community, and continuity is part of that

When I went to Cambridge from my state school, the Old Etonians I met were very smart indeed.

Also this:

https://youtu.be/9FtZkVRkusQ

Eton, along with Harrow, Winchester and Westminster is considered to be one of the top 4 public schools (and Eton probably the most academic of those). So an Eton and Oxbridge education is considered the best you can have in the UK so it is no surprise so many with that background have become PM.

What about St Paul's?

St Paul's is first division rather than premier league like those 4, hence Osborne was dangled out of a window by his legs at the Bullingdon Club while at Oxford for being an oik.

And 30 years later was thrown out of the back door of 10 Downing St for being a c***

*hides from TSE*

rcs1000 said:

Charles said:

DecrepitJohnL said:

justin124 said:

I am happy to be corrected on this, but I do get the impression that prior to World War 2 the obtaining of a 'place' at Oxbridge - as distinct from a Scholarship or Exhibition - did not require an applicant to excel academically to anything like the extent that has been required in recent decades.In that era Oxbridge appears to have been very largely a finishing school for public schoolboys - with the exception of the Scholars and Exhibitioners who often came from the grammar schools.

Yes, you just had to want to go, and have a rich daddy. The same is true more recently of public schools. Even some Etonians lament that the rich clots' places are now given to geeks and nerds.

Eton isn't just about an academic education or league tables. It's an organic community, and continuity is part of that

When I went to Cambridge from my state school, the Old Etonians I met were very smart indeed.

Also this:

https://youtu.be/9FtZkVRkusQ

Of course they are very smart (about 35-40% go to Oxbridge with another 10% going to Harvard/Yale/Stanford/Berkeley.

But you wouldn't want to be thought to have to try

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. HYUFD, ahem, I didn't mean to suggest I was blaming you

No worries

HYUFD said:

rcs1000 said:

Charles said:

DecrepitJohnL said:

justin124 said:

I am happy to be corrected on this, but I do get the impression that prior to World War 2 the obtaining of a 'place' at Oxbridge - as distinct from a Scholarship or Exhibition - did not require an applicant to excel academically to anything like the extent that has been required in recent decades.In that era Oxbridge appears to have been very largely a finishing school for public schoolboys - with the exception of the Scholars and Exhibitioners who often came from the grammar schools.

Yes, you just had to want to go, and have a rich daddy. The same is true more recently of public schools. Even some Etonians lament that the rich clots' places are now given to geeks and nerds.

Eton isn't just about an academic education or league tables. It's an organic community, and continuity is part of that

When I went to Cambridge from my state school, the Old Etonians I met were very smart indeed.

Also this:

https://youtu.be/9FtZkVRkusQ

Eton, along with Harrow, Winchester and Westminster is considered to be one of the top 4 public schools (and Eton probably the most academic of those). So an Eton and Oxbridge education is considered the best you can have in the UK so it is no surprise so many with that background have become PM.

Wrong. Simply wrong. You have a tediously definitive style when you don't know that of which you speak.

Winchester is the most academic - and that is a feeder for Cambridge*, the more academic university. Eton and Oxford students are ferociously bright but are trained in rhetoric and logic not academics. That's why you get so many politicians from Eton and Oxford and comparatively few from Winchester and Cambridge.

* it amuses me that when the Winchester/New and Eton/Kings links became too controversial they simply swapped - Eton is now a feeder to New and Winchester to Kings

rcs1000 said:

Charles said:

HYUFD said:

rcs1000 said:

Charles said:

DecrepitJohnL said:

justin124 said:

I am happy to be corrected on this, but I do get the impression that prior to World War 2 the obtaining of a 'place' at Oxbridge - as distinct from a Scholarship or Exhibition - did not require an applicant to excel academically to anything like the extent that has been required in recent decades.In that era Oxbridge appears to have been very largely a finishing school for public schoolboys - with the exception of the Scholars and Exhibitioners who often came from the grammar schools.

Yes, you just had to want to go, and have a rich daddy. The same is true more recently of public schools. Even some Etonians lament that the rich clots' places are now given to geeks and nerds.

Eton isn't just about an academic education or league tables. It's an organic community, and continuity is part of that

When I went to Cambridge from my state school, the Old Etonians I met were very smart indeed.

Also this:

https://youtu.be/9FtZkVRkusQ

Eton, along with Harrow, Winchester and Westminster is considered to be one of the top 4 public schools (and Eton probably the most academic of those). So an Eton and Oxbridge education is considered the best you can have in the UK so it is no surprise so many with that background have become PM.

Wrong. Simply wrong. You have a tediously definitive style when you don't know that of which you speak.

Winchester is the most academic - and that is a feeder for Cambridge*, the more academic university. Eton and Oxford students are ferociously bright but are trained in rhetoric and logic not academics. That's why you get so many politicians from Eton and Oxford and comparatively few from Winchester and Cambridge.

* it amuses me that when the Winchester/New and Eton/Kings links became too controversial they simply swapped - Eton is now a feeder to New and Winchester to Kings

Is Winchester more academic than Westminster?

Vastly so - in culture and focus

HYUFD said:

5* have a 3% lead for May's Italian general election

https://mobile.twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/941837751124504577

Tricky forming a coalition with those figures - 31% each for left and right, and 24% for the maverick 5* who are disliked by both left and right.

Peter_the_Punter said:

Yes, I'm waiting for £100 but I don't think Betfair are being unreasonable here, for the reason stated, and we have had surprise reversals before.

Moore on the other hand is being a dick. But then if he wasn't one, he probably wouldn't have lost.

Lol! Well put.

The Tories are seen as more divided than Labour by voters, according to the final Opinium/Observer poll of 2017.

Almost half of voters see the Conservatives as disunited (47%) compared with the 40% who see Labour as split.

The findings come after a bruising period for Theresa May’s party over Brexit. The division were exposed last week when 11 Tory MPs rebelled in a vote over the role parliament should have in approving the final Brexit deal.

Overall Labour holds a two-point lead over the Tories. Labour is down one point on a month ago at 42% while the Tories are also down one point on 39%.

The Liberal Democrats and Ukip are both up one point on 7% and 6% respectively.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/16/brexit-row-leaves-voters-thinking-tories-are-more-divided-than-labour

Peter_the_Punter said:

NickPalmer said:

TBF I suppose Betfair can't make generous assumptions like, say, Paddypower, because it has customers on both sides of the bets. Perhaps there's a punter with £10K on Moore still hoping who would sue Betfair if they decided he'd lost before it was official.

Yes, I'm waiting for £100 but I don't think Betfair are being unreasonable here, for the reason stated, and we have had surprise reversals before.

Moore on the other hand is being a dick. But then if he wasn't one, he probably wouldn't have lost.

+1

It only costs a tiny proportion of your winnings to cash out now, insuring yourself against any funny business.

TheScreamingEagles said:

The Tories are seen as more divided than Labour by voters, according to the final Opinium/Observer poll of 2017.

Almost half of voters see the Conservatives as disunited (47%) compared with the 40% who see Labour as split.

The findings come after a bruising period for Theresa May’s party over Brexit. The division were exposed last week when 11 Tory MPs rebelled in a vote over the role parliament should have in approving the final Brexit deal.

Overall Labour holds a two-point lead over the Tories. Labour is down one point on a month ago at 42% while the Tories are also down one point on 39%.

The Liberal Democrats and Ukip are both up one point on 7% and 6% respectively.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/16/brexit-row-leaves-voters-thinking-tories-are-more-divided-than-labour

Hardly surprising as the conservatives are under the media spotlight and labour's divisions are not relevant at present.

Also labour is down one to 41% not 42%

TheScreamingEagles said:

The Tories are seen as more divided than Labour by voters, according to the final Opinium/Observer poll of 2017.

Almost half of voters see the Conservatives as disunited (47%) compared with the 40% who see Labour as split.

The findings come after a bruising period for Theresa May’s party over Brexit. The division were exposed last week when 11 Tory MPs rebelled in a vote over the role parliament should have in approving the final Brexit deal.

Overall Labour holds a two-point lead over the Tories. Labour is down one point on a month ago at 42% while the Tories are also down one point on 39%.

The Liberal Democrats and Ukip are both up one point on 7% and 6% respectively.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/16/brexit-row-leaves-voters-thinking-tories-are-more-divided-than-labour

The two main parties slipping, although clearly within MOE. Labour is, for the time being, fudging its differences so that its MPs and supporters can look into both fields from their perch on the fence, whilst the Tories remain more exposed.

DecrepitJohnL said:

Charles said:

HYUFD said:

rcs1000 said:

Charles said:

DecrepitJohnL said:

justin124 said:

I am happy to be corrected on this, but I do get the impression that prior to World War 2 the obtaining of a 'place' at Oxbridge - as distinct from a Scholarship or Exhibition - did not require an applicant to excel academically to anything like the extent that has been required in recent decades.In that era Oxbridge appears to have been very largely a finishing school for public schoolboys - with the exception of the Scholars and Exhibitioners who often came from the grammar schools.

Yes, you just had to want to go, and have a rich daddy. The same is true more recently of public schools. Even some Etonians lament that the rich clots' places are now given to geeks and nerds.

Eton isn't just about an academic education or league tables. It's an organic community, and continuity is part of that

When I went to Cambridge from my state school, the Old Etonians I met were very smart indeed.

Also this:

https://youtu.be/9FtZkVRkusQ

Eton, along with Harrow, Winchester and Westminster is considered to be one of the top 4 public schools (and Eton probably the most academic of those). So an Eton and Oxbridge education is considered the best you can have in the UK so it is no surprise so many with that background have become PM.

Wrong. Simply wrong. You have a tediously definitive style when you don't know that of which you speak.

Winchester is the most academic - and that is a feeder for Cambridge*, the more academic university. Eton and Oxford students are ferociously bright but are trained in rhetoric and logic not academics. That's why you get so many politicians from Eton and Oxford and comparatively few from Winchester and Cambridge.

* it amuses me that when the Winchester/New and Eton/Kings links became too controversial they simply swapped - Eton is now a feeder to New and Winchester to Kings

Eton and Winchester. Winchester and Eton. Would it be too mischievous to remind pb that both these fine schools were this year implicated in A-level scandals where teachers leaked questions to pupils?

It's just their way of ensuring value for money!

DecrepitJohnL said:

Charles said:

HYUFD said:

rcs1000 said:

Charles said:

DecrepitJohnL said:

justin124 said:

I am happy to be corrected on this, but I do get the impression that prior to World War 2 the obtaining of a 'place' at Oxbridge - as distinct from a Scholarship or Exhibition - did not require an applicant to excel academically to anything like the extent that has been required in recent decades.In that era Oxbridge appears to have been very largely a finishing school for public schoolboys - with the exception of the Scholars and Exhibitioners who often came from the grammar schools.

Yes, you just had to want to go, and have a rich daddy. The same is true more recently of public schools. Even some Etonians lament that the rich clots' places are now given to geeks and nerds.

Eton isn't just about an academic education or league tables. It's an organic community, and continuity is part of that

When I went to Cambridge from my state school, the Old Etonians I met were very smart indeed.

Also this:

https://youtu.be/9FtZkVRkusQ

Eton, along with Harrow, Winchester and Westminster is considered to be one of the top 4 public schools (and Eton probably the most academic of those). So an Eton and Oxbridge education is considered the best you can have in the UK so it is no surprise so many with that background have become PM.

Wrong. Simply wrong. You have a tediously definitive style when you don't know that of which you speak.

Winchester is the most academic - and that is a feeder for Cambridge*, the more academic university. Eton and Oxford students are ferociously bright but are trained in rhetoric and logic not academics. That's why you get so many politicians from Eton and Oxford and comparatively few from Winchester and Cambridge.

* it amuses me that when the Winchester/New and Eton/Kings links became too controversial they simply swapped - Eton is now a feeder to New and Winchester to Kings

Eton and Winchester. Winchester and Eton. Would it be too mischievous to remind pb that both these fine schools were this year implicated in A-level scandals where teachers leaked questions to pupils?

That's not what happened at Eton.

One of the teachers shared information with other teachers. None of them passed it on to the pupils. The teacher was sacked

Charles said:

DecrepitJohnL said:

Charles said:

HYUFD said:

rcs1000 said:

Charles said:

DecrepitJohnL said:

justin124 said:

I am happy to be corrected on this, but I do get the impression that prior to World War 2 the obtaining of a 'place' at Oxbridge - as distinct from a Scholarship or Exhibition - did not require an applicant to excel academically to anything like the extent that has been required in recent decades.In that era Oxbridge appears to have been very largely a finishing school for public schoolboys - with the exception of the Scholars and Exhibitioners who often came from the grammar schools.

Yes, you just had to want to go, and have a rich daddy. The same is true more recently of public schools. Even some Etonians lament that the rich clots' places are now given to geeks and nerds.

Eton isn't just about an academic education or league tables. It's an organic community, and continuity is part of that

When I went to Cambridge from my state school, the Old Etonians I met were very smart indeed.

Also this:

https://youtu.be/9FtZkVRkusQ

Eton, along with Harrow, Winchester and Westminster is considered to be one of the top 4 public schools (and Eton probably the most academic of those). So an Eton and Oxbridge education is considered the best you can have in the UK so it is no surprise so many with that background have become PM.

Wrong. Simply wrong. You have a tediously definitive style when you don't know that of which you speak.

Winchester is the most academic - and that is a feeder for Cambridge*, the more academic university. Eton and Oxford students are ferociously bright but are trained in rhetoric and logic not academics. That's why you get so many politicians from Eton and Oxford and comparatively few from Winchester and Cambridge.

* it amuses me that when the Winchester/New and Eton/Kings links became too controversial they simply swapped - Eton is now a feeder to New and Winchester to Kings

Eton and Winchester. Winchester and Eton. Would it be too mischievous to remind pb that both these fine schools were this year implicated in A-level scandals where teachers leaked questions to pupils?

That's not what happened at Eton.

One of the teachers shared information with other teachers. None of them passed it on to the pupils. The teacher was sacked

For not passing it on to the pupils?

Charles said:

I've just ordered a pizza with pineapple

Rebel with a cause.

Spurs and english cricket..... perfect correlation forever.

Scrapheap_as_was said:

Spurs and english cricket..... perfect correlation forever.

You’ll get me wishing they can win a game then.

But the EPL has never been like this. It’s a procession. I don’t think you need to be a United fan to regret it.

Charles said:

I've just ordered a pizza with pineapple

A pizza and a pineapple? You must be hungry

Pizza with pineapple.

Is the pineapple on the pizza or is it a side dish? Nice to Charles enjoys a bit of peasant food.

Charles, I find that pineapple goes with just about everything, especially ham.

Less importantly, for science and Maths:

Cambridge is a great place to be a post-grad or an academic. Ghosts of great academics lurk everywhere---check out the statue of Newton in the Trinity chapel---but it is is a bleak place to be trampled by tourists.

Cal Tech is academically challenging and quite a test. Strangely its locale is relatively provincial.

MIT is great also in economics. Its location teems culturally.

Of the three, MIT manages to mix homeyness with global excellence.

Peter_the_Punter said:

NickPalmer said:

HYUFD said:

60% of Germans oppose a United States of Europe by 2025

https://mobile.twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/939560995269349377

In 8 years! Even I'd hesitate about abolishing all 28 countries that soon. I think 32% in favour is quite an impressive score. I wonder what % would favour it as a long-term aspiration.

I've alsways fancied it as a long-term aspiration but then I had in mind something like fifty to a hundred years, by which time I would have long since been beyond caring.

I've never been opposed to the dream of a more united Europe, I just have deep reservations in what the current version looks like and lost hope it would ever improve in a manner personally acceptable to me.

williamglenn said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

The_Apocalypse said:

I don’t know if this was posted earlier on, but just saw an Independent article on it. Couldn’t copy the link from that article so I found a tweet linking to the story from Sky News:

https://twitter.com/skynews/status/941990573006839808

Hammond being tackless and getting the Brexiteers upset.

I am sure that is where we will end up but it needs to be a process.

It’s been government policy since the Florence speech.
https://twitter.com/bethrigby/status/942109445810769920

Yes but winding up the Brexiteers from China is not good politics

Big_G_NorthWales said:

The_Apocalypse said:

I don’t know if this was posted earlier on, but just saw an Independent article on it. Couldn’t copy the link from that article so I found a tweet linking to the story from Sky News:

https://twitter.com/skynews/status/941990573006839808

Hammond being tackless and getting the Brexiteers upset.

I am sure that is where we will end up but it needs to be a process.

I'm astonished at how tin-earred Hammond is with rather basic political skills.

Evening all

To link the Opinium poll and the previous thread (with thanks as always to David H), perceptions are often more important than but not necessarily related to realities. I suspect the Conservatives are well aware of the first rule of politics which is that if you don't hang together you'll all hang separately.

Disunity or the perception of disunity was, I believe, a key factor in the disastrous 92-97 Major Government but that was exacerbated by the equally inaccurate perception that, after four election victories and the miracle of 92, the party could do what it liked and still win.

We see the same now - Corbyn acts as a shield for the Conservatives and re-enforces the belief of those supporters who assert it doesn't matter how disunited the party appears, it will always win against Corbyn.

Perhaps but no Party has a divine right to rule - long periods of Conservative and Labour rule have come to ruinous ends having at times looked immortal. To simply assume that the public will always go for the Devil they know is naive and foolish.

Wilson in 64, Thatcher in 79 and Blair in 97 were all to a greater or lesser extent untried and untested. All were doubted because of their perceived inexperience and all faced experienced if not long-serving Prime Ministers (neither Home nor Callaghan had been in office three years).

To assume people won't Labour because of Corbyn would be foolish - they might vote Labour because after a dozen years (assuming it will be 2022) they will be tired of the Conservatives (despite numerous re-inventions and re-brandings) being in power and even the Conservatives will be tired of being in power (even though that's basically all they do).

If I were Corbyn or Labour, I'd be trying to build my blueprint of a post-EU 2020s Britain and trying to figure out what will work for the majority of people. That demands radical thinking but offers non-ideological alternatives which can be sold to the electorate.

kle4 said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

NickPalmer said:

HYUFD said:

60% of Germans oppose a United States of Europe by 2025

https://mobile.twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/939560995269349377

In 8 years! Even I'd hesitate about abolishing all 28 countries that soon. I think 32% in favour is quite an impressive score. I wonder what % would favour it as a long-term aspiration.

I've alsways fancied it as a long-term aspiration but then I had in mind something like fifty to a hundred years, by which time I would have long since been beyond caring.

I've never been opposed to the dream of a more united Europe, I just have deep reservations in what the current version looks like and lost hope it would ever improve in a manner personally acceptable to me.

I am opposed to it both in principle and practice. What is the dream of europhiles is my nightmare.

I think the pursuit of single global government is a terrible idea, and as naive and foolhardy as that of world socialism.

williamglenn said:

Remain: 51
Leave: 41

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-second-referendum-latest-poll-remain-ten-points-leave-bmg-a8114406.html

Boom

Not going to change anything

Casino_Royale said:

NickPalmer said:

HYUFD said:

60% of Germans oppose a United States of Europe by 2025

https://mobile.twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/939560995269349377

In 8 years! Even I'd hesitate about abolishing all 28 countries that soon. I think 32% in favour is quite an impressive score. I wonder what % would favour it as a long-term aspiration.

At least you're honest about abolishing the 28 countries.

Brexiteers normally get called foaming or swivel-eyed when they point that out.

Yes, but I'm not a typical Remainer. It's swivel-eyed when one depicts all Remainers or all Continentals as being like that.

The strictly panel seem to be coalescing around making everyone virtually the same.

There must be bigger variations and it doesn't seem right to me but then I do not follow strictly

Big_G_NorthWales said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

The Tories are seen as more divided than Labour by voters, according to the final Opinium/Observer poll of 2017.

Almost half of voters see the Conservatives as disunited (47%) compared with the 40% who see Labour as split.

The findings come after a bruising period for Theresa May’s party over Brexit. The division were exposed last week when 11 Tory MPs rebelled in a vote over the role parliament should have in approving the final Brexit deal.

Overall Labour holds a two-point lead over the Tories. Labour is down one point on a month ago at 42% while the Tories are also down one point on 39%.

The Liberal Democrats and Ukip are both up one point on 7% and 6% respectively.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/16/brexit-row-leaves-voters-thinking-tories-are-more-divided-than-labour

Hardly surprising as the conservatives are under the media spotlight and labour's divisions are not relevant at present.

Fixed!

NickPalmer said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

williamglenn said:

Remain: 51
Leave: 41

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-second-referendum-latest-poll-remain-ten-points-leave-bmg-a8114406.html

Boom

Not going to change anything

I think you're mistaken, if that remains the direction of travel. Labour will evolve with public opinion, because the leadership has no strong preference (that's why we're not really pinned down to anything) and the party is otherwise strongly Remain and if a "stop this disaster" meme grows in strength, the Tory rebels will take heart. Certainly the EU would be up for calling the whole thing off, and there has never been an EU law that the collective will of the Council of Ministers hasn't found a way round.

But it's only one poll for now.

I think if that happened it would cause utter chaos with the country ex the metropolitan areas going ballistic and labour losing it's working class vote

MaxPB said:

Casino_Royale said:

So, if i stick a fiver on Gemma Atkinson, am I going to win some money, TSE?

Depends on where you stick it on her I guess.

She's since lengthened to over 35/1.

Not sure that means she's on course for a win.

So if Britain were Austria, Nick Griffin would be Home Secretary, Tommy Robinson would be Foreign Secretary and Trump's Twitter pal from Britain First would be Defence Secretary. I suppose 'No Surrender' is a defence policy of sorts.

And these people now have a veto on our Brexit deal. (In theory)

Casino_Royale said:

Nonsense. You're insulting my intelligence.

We both know Brexiters are referring to the EU federalists who drive the EU's agenda when they say that. As you put it: "even I'd hesitate about abolishing all 28 countries that soon."

The debate is only about tactics: what's the maximum politically sustainable rate at which "The Dream" should be pursued, to reach the inevitable destination.

The "mad" label put back on eurosceptics in the UK is political chaff designed to disorientate the average UK voter from honing in on the evidence, until it's too late.

If Nick P isn't a typical REMAIN voter then I'm not a typical LEAVE voter.

I voted LEAVE in sorrow more than anger because I like the idea of a European Union where individual countries pool aspects of their sovereignty and work together for the common good of all their citizens. Whether through NATO or other international agencies, Britain already cedes aspects of its sovereignty voluntarily.

The notion of free trade, collaborative working and a single European voice on the world stage isn't unattractive to me but that's not what the EU became. It tried to become a country in its own right and became more interested in those making money than in people in general. The social, economic and cultural catastrophe of the Single Market convinced me the "idea" had lost its way - the EU could have achieved so much more by being so much less but like all institutions once it had power it wanted more.

That doesn't discredit or diminish the dream, only the reality.

stodge said:

Casino_Royale said:

Nonsense. You're insulting my intelligence.

We both know Brexiters are referring to the EU federalists who drive the EU's agenda when they say that. As you put it: "even I'd hesitate about abolishing all 28 countries that soon."

The debate is only about tactics: what's the maximum politically sustainable rate at which "The Dream" should be pursued, to reach the inevitable destination.

The "mad" label put back on eurosceptics in the UK is political chaff designed to disorientate the average UK voter from honing in on the evidence, until it's too late.

If Nick P isn't a typical REMAIN voter then I'm not a typical LEAVE voter.

I voted LEAVE in sorrow more than anger because I like the idea of a European Union where individual countries pool aspects of their sovereignty and work together for the common good of all their citizens. Whether through NATO or other international agencies, Britain already cedes aspects of its sovereignty voluntarily.

The notion of free trade, collaborative working and a single European voice on the world stage isn't unattractive to me but that's not what the EU became. It tried to become a country in its own right and became more interested in those making money than in people in general. The social, economic and cultural catastrophe of the Single Market convinced me the "idea" had lost its way - the EU could have achieved so much more by being so much less but like all institutions once it had power it wanted more.

That doesn't discredit or diminish the dream, only the reality.

Well said, and very much what turned me from Remainer to leaver. But it was still a close call in the end, I hesitated.

In the end, it had to be head over heart.

Casino_Royale said:

MaxPB said:

Casino_Royale said:

So, if i stick a fiver on Gemma Atkinson, am I going to win some money, TSE?

Depends on where you stick it on her I guess.

She's since lengthened to over 35/1.

Not sure that means she's on course for a win.

Im on her. It aint happening

stodge said:

Casino_Royale said:

Nonsense. You're insulting my intelligence.

We both know Brexiters are referring to the EU federalists who drive the EU's agenda when they say that. As you put it: "even I'd hesitate about abolishing all 28 countries that soon."

The debate is only about tactics: what's the maximum politically sustainable rate at which "The Dream" should be pursued, to reach the inevitable destination.

The "mad" label put back on eurosceptics in the UK is political chaff designed to disorientate the average UK voter from honing in on the evidence, until it's too late.

If Nick P isn't a typical REMAIN voter then I'm not a typical LEAVE voter.

I voted LEAVE in sorrow more than anger because I like the idea of a European Union where individual countries pool aspects of their sovereignty and work together for the common good of all their citizens. Whether through NATO or other international agencies, Britain already cedes aspects of its sovereignty voluntarily.

The notion of free trade, collaborative working and a single European voice on the world stage isn't unattractive to me but that's not what the EU became. It tried to become a country in its own right and became more interested in those making money than in people in general. The social, economic and cultural catastrophe of the Single Market convinced me the "idea" had lost its way - the EU could have achieved so much more by being so much less but like all institutions once it had power it wanted more.

That doesn't discredit or diminish the dream, only the reality.

That's a fair aspiration.

The best man won