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"On a couple of issues, some differences do remain" – UK PM Theresa May on failure to reach deal with EU in #Brexit talks https://t.co/UEqjIb9s51 pic.twitter.com/b5OqkrAsXy
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First, like Leave.0
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Second like the next referendum.0
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surbiton said:
The people of Northern Ireland did vote to stay in the UK, i.e. the Single Market and the Customs Union. It is the DUP which is reneging on the people's democratic wishes. The DUP have no MPs in the mainland - so they should not worry about the rUK.williamglenn said:
The only way to take a credible harder line on no GB/NI border is to reverse support for Brexit.anothernick said:It's hard to see the DUP getting on board now - their grassroots will be screaming blue murder and they will be forced to take a harder line.
That would really put the UK government on the spot.0 -
New elections in 2018.
Another referendum in 2019.0 -
Not sure we are there yet. But Vernon Bogdanor may yet be proved to be right.surbiton said:New elections in 2018.
Another referendum in 2019.0 -
Still not sold on how we get a 3018 election. Would involve Tory MPs voting for an early election in which they would lose their seats.0
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Hello everyone. It’s been a while.
Just popping in to luxuriate in the schadenfreude.
See you at the next referendum.0 -
Concentrate on the short term.RochdalePioneers said:Still not sold on how we get a 3018 election. Would involve Tory MPs voting for an early election in which they would lose their seats.
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Do they register their protest at the cravenness of their party in allowing pigdog traitors to kowtow to Johnny Foreigner. Or do they suck it up for fear of a Jezza govt.RochdalePioneers said:Still not sold on how we get a 3018 election. Would involve Tory MPs voting for an early election in which they would lose their seats.
Some might opt for the former.0 -
Big danger for May is that the DUP will realise that the final deal will inevitably be something they cannot support.0
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Second referendum..you heard it here first.0
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An incredible amount of criticism on here of May. What would those who criticise her do that she is not?0
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Shades of Sion Simon....RochdalePioneers said:Still not sold on how we get a 3018 election. Would involve Tory MPs voting for an early election in which they would lose their seats.
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Difficult to predict that far ahead, but everyone voting in that particular election will be related to all of us posting here today.RochdalePioneers said:Still not sold on how we get a 3018 election. Would involve Tory MPs voting for an early election in which they would lose their seats.
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Everyone knows better but does not have the responsibilty.currystar said:An incredible amount of criticism on here of May. What would those who criticise her do that she is not?
BBC reporting disappointment in the EU, so counting your chickens comes into mind0 -
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Understand as I think Faisal Islam pointed out, that leaving the EU did not specifically entail any one measure or measures. Including leaving the single market, freedom of movement, and all the rest.currystar said:An incredible amount of criticism on here of May. What would those who criticise her do that she is not?
She allowed both her natural instincts (limited as they are) together with her Brexito-loons to dictate the pace.
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Most backbenchers would not lose their seats, especially where they weigh the vote.RochdalePioneers said:Still not sold on how we get a 3018 election. Would involve Tory MPs voting for an early election in which they would lose their seats.
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I refer to my earlier point about Vernon Bogdanor.IanB2 said:Second referendum..you heard it here first.
Apparently he taught Cameron. But not clear he was listening in those tutorials.0 -
Welcome back, Mr. M.
Mr. B2, I have mentioned it once or twice
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Rejoin a political union under worse terms.IanB2 said:Second referendum..you heard it here first.
Some on here should be ashamed of themselves how low you think of this country.0 -
If the DUP hold their line we will almost inevitably have a second referendum announced by the end of January.
It's probably the only way the DUP can save face after their kamikaze support for Brexit in the first place.0 -
There are two possible explanations for today.
One is that May agreed to a lot of stuff but did not clear it with the DUP and so has backed away from an agreement at the last minute.
The other is that she did not agree and that the EU has tried to bounce her into an agreement through leaking the details of their proposal.
All the Remainers on here all day have assumed it was the first. It is equally as likely it was the second and there appears to be no evidence to support one contention over the other.
I would like to think that the Remainers would learn a lesson from this, but I very much doubt they will.0 -
It would need the DUP to support a No Confidence Vote. A Dissolution follows autimatically in the absence of an Affirmative Confidence Vote within 14 days.RochdalePioneers said:Still not sold on how we get a 3018 election. Would involve Tory MPs voting for an early election in which they would lose their seats.
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Thank you Mortimer. While I have mostly retired from the fray, I do drift in occasionally to allow the warring tribes an opportunity to bask in the radiance of my presence, so this is not unprecedentedMortimer said:
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Actually, everyone has missed the real story of the day. Both the EU and the UK (for all their protestations and positioning) are obviously keen to do a deal.
My guess - contrary to what I have long planned upon - is that ultimately a deal will therefore be done.0 -
Mr. Tyndall, a fair comment. There have been plenty of leaks, such as those to the German press.0
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True. But then I have been predicting it for almost as long as you have been predicting the non appearance of the safety car.Morris_Dancer said:Welcome back, Mr. M.
Mr. B2, I have mentioned it once or twice0 -
I think real progress. For the first time, this government has been serious about Brexit in the recent couple of weeks. The points of difference look to be defined and narrow, so they should be bridgeable. Admittedly this is just the first and easiest of at least three rounds of Brexit talks. But progress nevertheless.0
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D'unt matter which it is. She is PM and it's her job to get us a good deal. This she seems manifestly not able to do. Although of course we shall wait and see.Richard_Tyndall said:There are two possible explanations for today.
One is that May agreed to a lot of stuff but did not clear it with the DUP and so has backed away from an agreement at the last minute.
The other is that she did not agree and that the EU has tried to bounce her into an agreement through leaking the details of their proposal.
All the Remainers on here all day have assumed it was the first. It is equally as likely it was the second and there appears to be no evidence to support one contention over the other.
I would like to think that the Remainers would learn a lesson from this, but I very much doubt they will.0 -
Surely the 48 letters will get to 1922 before May can announce a 2nd referendum?williamglenn said:If the DUP hold their line we will almost inevitably have a second referendum announced by the end of January.
It's probably the only way the DUP can save face after their kamikaze support for Brexit in the first place.0 -
Peston tweeting that TM ready to agree regulatory alignment for whole of UK. Cabinet resignations surely if she goes down that route.0
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Yes, it is progress in that the UK and EU are minded to do a deal.
But being "minded" counts for nothing if you can't get the backing to sign that deal, and the effect of today is that this backing is less, not more likely.0 -
Or the EU/ROI are playing games....rottenborough said:0 -
I can’t tell whether it’s May that’s the big issue here - that she just isn’t very good - or whether Brexit is so complex that any PM would be in this mess.0
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I said that on the previous thread.AlastairMeeks said:Actually, everyone has missed the real story of the day. Both the EU and the UK (for all their protestations and positioning) are obviously keen to do a deal.
My guess - contrary to what I have long planned upon - is that ultimately a deal will therefore be done.
Throw the DUP into the sea if the bugger up the Brexit deal.0 -
I don't know the ins and outs of it all, but the tone in that brief "No deal" press conference seemed remarkably warm and conciliatory considering that the EU are in control and want to grind Britain's face into the dirt. Maybe it's not as most on here want it to be- from either side- and a deal might actually be in the offing.0
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I'm lost now. What were the DUP complaining about then?kjohnw said:Peston tweeting that TM ready to agree regulatory alignment for whole of UK. Cabinet resignations surely if she goes down that route.
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fpt
I think I might have played rugby against him 25 years ago..TheScreamingEagles said:George Osborne's former Chief of Staff and current boss speaks.
https://twitter.com/rbrharrison/status/937689356076232704
https://twitter.com/rbrharrison/status/9376898987521392660 -
Get out the popcorn.Scott_P said:0 -
DUP standing up for Britain.
At least someone on our side seems to know how to negotiate.0 -
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Can Boris at least stay in till the new year ?Scott_P said:0 -
May knows what the DUP and majority in NI want without having to check with them. She knows they don't want to be separated from the UK in any further ways than at present.Pulpstar said:
That's exceedingly easy in this case: Discussed potential wording with Arlene Foster.currystar said:An incredible amount of criticism on here of May. What would those who criticise her do that she is not?
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She can't. She doesn't have a majority if the DUP go overboard.TheScreamingEagles said:Throw the DUP into the sea if the bugger up the Brexit deal.
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Mr. B2, be fair. There shouldn't've been one at Monaco. Button tried a stupid move for a non-points position.
Not that I'm still annoyed about it.
Mr. W, ****ing hell. She might as well don a gimp suit if she's going that far. What's the point of leaving if we're going to let the EU dictate our regulations?
The 1922 Committee should (figuratively) put her in a sack, throw her in the Thames and get a PM who has a spine, brain, and guts (or at least a couple of them).
On the plus side, it does make my 6.5 on another vote pre-2020 seem good value.
Edited extra bit: that does assume Peston's right. And we all recall how accurate he was just as the polling closed on the referendum.
I may have been a shade excessive. Maybe.0 -
May has the numbers in Parliament for a deal. Does she have the numbers in her party?El_Capitano said:Yes, it is progress in that the UK and EU are minded to do a deal.
But being "minded" counts for nothing if you can't get the backing to sign that deal, and the effect of today is that this backing is less, not more likely.0 -
Or we stay in the Customs Union.williamglenn said:If the DUP hold their line we will almost inevitably have a second referendum announced by the end of January.
It's probably the only way the DUP can save face after their kamikaze support for Brexit in the first place.
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To get a good deal she first has to not sign any bad deals.TOPPING said:
D'unt matter which it is. She is PM and it's her job to get us a good deal. This she seems manifestly not able to do. Although of course we shall wait and see.Richard_Tyndall said:There are two possible explanations for today.
One is that May agreed to a lot of stuff but did not clear it with the DUP and so has backed away from an agreement at the last minute.
The other is that she did not agree and that the EU has tried to bounce her into an agreement through leaking the details of their proposal.
All the Remainers on here all day have assumed it was the first. It is equally as likely it was the second and there appears to be no evidence to support one contention over the other.
I would like to think that the Remainers would learn a lesson from this, but I very much doubt they will.
To summarise the day - no deal is better than a bad deal.
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Or that it is both.The_Apocalypse said:I can’t tell whether it’s May that’s the big issue here - that she just isn’t very good - or whether Brexit is so complex that any PM would be in this mess.
Brexit needs someone with the wisdom of Solomon. It has someone with all the nous of Frank Spencer (“Some Mothers do ‘Ave ‘Em) handling it.0 -
He'd have been 14 then, was it a schoolboy match?JonnyJimmy said:fpt
I think I might have played rugby against him 25 years ago..TheScreamingEagles said:George Osborne's former Chief of Staff and current boss speaks.
https://twitter.com/rbrharrison/status/937689356076232704
https://twitter.com/rbrharrison/status/9376898987521392660 -
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Dynamite: May selling the DUP down the river.
BBC reports ......
"Belgian MEP Philippe Lamberts earlier told the BBC's Laura Kuenssberg that the UK had made a concession on the Irish border.
The BBC's political editor said Mr Lamberts had said the UK was prepared to accept that Northern Ireland may remain in the EU's customs union and single market in all but name"
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Yes, I played for Marlborough against Eton that year. I think they beat us 7-5TheScreamingEagles said:
He'd have been 14 then, was it a schoolboy match?JonnyJimmy said:fpt
I think I might have played rugby against him 25 years ago..TheScreamingEagles said:George Osborne's former Chief of Staff and current boss speaks.
https://twitter.com/rbrharrison/status/937689356076232704
https://twitter.com/rbrharrison/status/9376898987521392660 -
Maybe a bit of both, but perhaps an even bigger factor is that the great British public decided not to give her the majority she was seeking, thus making it impossible for her to carry out the negotiations properly.The_Apocalypse said:I can’t tell whether it’s May that’s the big issue here - that she just isn’t very good - or whether Brexit is so complex that any PM would be in this mess.
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How the f can one part of UK remain in Single Market? I suppose we might see Sunderland and Swindon's car plants move to Belfast.David_Evershed said:Dynamite: May selling the DUP down the river.
BBC reports ......
"Belgian MEP Philippe Lamberts earlier told the BBC's Laura Kuenssberg that the UK had made a concession on the Irish border.
The BBC's political editor said Mr Lamberts had said the UK was prepared to accept that Northern Ireland may remain in the EU's customs union and single market in all but name"0 -
Public school?TheScreamingEagles said:
He'd have been 14 then, was it a schoolboy match?JonnyJimmy said:fpt
I think I might have played rugby against him 25 years ago..TheScreamingEagles said:George Osborne's former Chief of Staff and current boss speaks.
https://twitter.com/rbrharrison/status/937689356076232704
https://twitter.com/rbrharrison/status/9376898987521392660 -
Her own fault. She was bequeathed a majority by David Cameron, and there was no need to have a general election for another three years.Richard_Nabavi said:
Maybe a bit of both, but perhaps an even bigger factor is that the great British public decided not to give her the majority she was seeking, thus making it impossible for her to carry out the negotiations properly.The_Apocalypse said:I can’t tell whether it’s May that’s the big issue here - that she just isn’t very good - or whether Brexit is so complex that any PM would be in this mess.
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Today has been reassuring on that front. May/Davis may need to be seen to clearly win something somewhere along the line though.AlastairMeeks said:Actually, everyone has missed the real story of the day. Both the EU and the UK (for all their protestations and positioning) are obviously keen to do a deal.
My guess - contrary to what I have long planned upon - is that ultimately a deal will therefore be done.0 -
It's high risk, but it could work. Theresa May's calculation up to now is to be the hardest of Brexits and never be outflanked. Going for soft Brexit may split the hard core. Some hardliners will resist it; others will bank a form of Brexit even if it isn't what they want.Scott_P said:
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Let’s face it. the EU DON’T want us to leave. They’d prefer we sent them different MEP’s of course, but they want us to stay. if they can get May off the hook, and keep her on-side tbey will.TwistedFireStopper said:I don't know the ins and outs of it all, but the tone in that brief "No deal" press conference seemed remarkably warm and conciliatory considering that the EU are in control and want to grind Britain's face into the dirt. Maybe it's not as most on here want it to be- from either side- and a deal might actually be in the offing.
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Yup, Rupert's an Old Etonian.David_Evershed said:
Public school?TheScreamingEagles said:
He'd have been 14 then, was it a schoolboy match?JonnyJimmy said:fpt
I think I might have played rugby against him 25 years ago..TheScreamingEagles said:George Osborne's former Chief of Staff and current boss speaks.
https://twitter.com/rbrharrison/status/937689356076232704
https://twitter.com/rbrharrison/status/9376898987521392660 -
At this rate she'll be abandoning Brexit altogether in a week or two. What's the point of leaving if the UK cannot diverge from EU regulations?Scott_P said:0 -
That too. However, that doesn't absolve voters of responsibility for the consequences of their votes. It was plain as a pikestaff that to negotiate Brexit she needed a majority, and preferably a large one.TheScreamingEagles said:
Her own fault. She was bequeathed a majority by David Cameron, and there was no need to have a general election for another three years.Richard_Nabavi said:
Maybe a bit of both, but perhaps an even bigger factor is that the great British public decided not to give her the majority she was seeking, thus making it impossible for her to carry out the negotiations properly.The_Apocalypse said:I can’t tell whether it’s May that’s the big issue here - that she just isn’t very good - or whether Brexit is so complex that any PM would be in this mess.
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Not really. I tweeted something similar an hour ago.AlastairMeeks said:Actually, everyone has missed the real story of the day. Both the EU and the UK (for all their protestations and positioning) are obviously keen to do a deal.
My guess - contrary to what I have long planned upon - is that ultimately a deal will therefore be done.0 -
Precisely, which is why convergence is a non-starter.anothernick said:
At this rate she'll be abandoning Brexit altogether in a week or two. What's the point of leaving if the UK cannot diverge from EU regulations?Scott_P said:0 -
At last, a deal with an upside.The_Apocalypse said:
Get out the popcorn.Scott_P said:0 -
Actually, I'm definitely wrong. He would have been in the year below me. I saw he was born 78 as well, and erroneously assumed he was in the same year as me. But I'm March, he's November.JonnyJimmy said:
Yes, I played for Marlborough against Eton that year. I think they beat us 7-5TheScreamingEagles said:
He'd have been 14 then, was it a schoolboy match?JonnyJimmy said:fpt
I think I might have played rugby against him 25 years ago..TheScreamingEagles said:George Osborne's former Chief of Staff and current boss speaks.
https://twitter.com/rbrharrison/status/937689356076232704
https://twitter.com/rbrharrison/status/9376898987521392660 -
Mr. Borough, I agree entirely. And this was predicted:
https://twitter.com/MrTCHarris/status/9376882197470126080 -
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Is that Yes/No support for independence or a second referendum? If the former then it's a very high starting point for Yes, and support has now clearly outgrown the SNP.Scott_P said:0 -
I'm more puzzled to know how some, or all, of the UK remains part of the EU's Customs Union on leaving the EU. That would seem to be neither in our interest, nor in their interest.rottenborough said:
How the f can one part of UK remain in Single Market? I suppose we might see Sunderland and Swindon's car plants move to Belfast.David_Evershed said:Dynamite: May selling the DUP down the river.
BBC reports ......
"Belgian MEP Philippe Lamberts earlier told the BBC's Laura Kuenssberg that the UK had made a concession on the Irish border.
The BBC's political editor said Mr Lamberts had said the UK was prepared to accept that Northern Ireland may remain in the EU's customs union and single market in all but name"0 -
Incidentally, if anyone's getting a bit hot under the collar I can highly recommend you relax with some nice soothing bar charts portraying the reliability and points-scoring proclivity of cars in the 2017 F1 season:
http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.co.uk/2017/12/2017-post-season-review.html0 -
@matthewcarson: Reminder that the UK started the Brexit negotiations offering no transition period, 20 billion euros maximum, and no special arrangements for NI. Now it’s 2/3 years transition, 60 billion euros, and special arrangements for NI. The Art Of The Deal, by Theresa May.0
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Was it a particularly difficult conversion?JonnyJimmy said:Yes, I played for Marlborough against Eton that year. I think they beat us 7-5
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Sterling tumbled 0.66%. Georgi hasn't lived.0
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Scott_P said:
I just can't see the EU wanting to align their regulations with those of the UK.
Continent cut off by fuzzy thinking.0 -
Nothing's agreed until everything's agreedScott_P said:@matthewcarson: Reminder that the UK started the Brexit negotiations offering no transition period, 20 billion euros maximum, and no special arrangements for NI. Now it’s 2/3 years transition, 60 billion euros, and special arrangements for NI. The Art Of The Deal, by Theresa May.
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The DUP's position also seems to be that it wouldn't allow a special deal for Scotland or Wales (or London) either, as that would also be a threat to the union. So do ScotIndy win either way; either carve out separate deal with EU from rest of the UK and make a basis for independence from that, or argue that the straight jacket terms of a "one deal hits all countries" demands an independent Scotland to rejoin the EU?0
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There is no such thing as no deal.TGOHF said:
To get a good deal she first has to not sign any bad deals.TOPPING said:
D'unt matter which it is. She is PM and it's her job to get us a good deal. This she seems manifestly not able to do. Although of course we shall wait and see.Richard_Tyndall said:There are two possible explanations for today.
One is that May agreed to a lot of stuff but did not clear it with the DUP and so has backed away from an agreement at the last minute.
The other is that she did not agree and that the EU has tried to bounce her into an agreement through leaking the details of their proposal.
All the Remainers on here all day have assumed it was the first. It is equally as likely it was the second and there appears to be no evidence to support one contention over the other.
I would like to think that the Remainers would learn a lesson from this, but I very much doubt they will.
To summarise the day - no deal is better than a bad deal.0 -
Was it only three points for a try at the time?Tissue_Price said:
Was it a particularly difficult conversion?JonnyJimmy said:Yes, I played for Marlborough against Eton that year. I think they beat us 7-5
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Well, what to make of all that? My guess is that a hard-Brexit mole in the May camp leaked some controversial stuff to enrage the DUP and scupper things. Very clever if so - Rees-Mogg and co. have now been forewarned and they can brand Theresa a saboteur if she attempts a stunt like that again.0
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The transition is a good thing, surely? And I don’t recall the £20bn being described as the full liabilities. A far cry from the initial €100bn demand though.Scott_P said:@matthewcarson: Reminder that the UK started the Brexit negotiations offering no transition period, 20 billion euros maximum, and no special arrangements for NI. Now it’s 2/3 years transition, 60 billion euros, and special arrangements for NI. The Art Of The Deal, by Theresa May.
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That must have been a stonking match. Two tries in total, in Boys Rugby; the matches I saw used to have 2 in the first 15 minutes.... once saw BNC win 60 something - 3...Tissue_Price said:
Was it a particularly difficult conversion?JonnyJimmy said:Yes, I played for Marlborough against Eton that year. I think they beat us 7-5
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Mr. Grss, welcome to pb.com.
Had Remain won 52%, I can't see the likes of Khan or the SNP calling for those parts of the nation that voted to Leave to do so separately. It's a rancid reductionism of politics.
When the Scots voted to stay in the UK, was there a call for those parts that voted to leave to separate?
*sighs*0 -
Interesting electoral fact: since 1992 only two seats in the wider regions of London / south east / East Anglia have moved from Labour to Conservative: Southampton Itchen and Thurrock, compared to about 31 seats across the country as a whole in that category. (Around 74 seats moved the other way. Boundary changes make the comparisons inexact). Southampton Itchen is effectively a swap with Southampton Test between 1992 and 2017, which leaves Thurrock as the only seat to switch in that part of the country since 1992. Those numbers would leave the Tories down 43 seats, but in fact they're only down 18 seats, which means they got a seat bonus of about 25 seats from the various boundary changes since 1992.0
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Or it was the EU trying to bounce her into something. They have form on leaking.Stark_Dawning said:Well, what to make of all that? My guess is that a hard-Brexit mole in the May camp leaked some controversial stuff to enrage the DUP and scupper things. Very clever if so - Rees-Mogg and co. have now been forewarned and they can brand Theresa a saboteur if she attempts a stunt like that again.
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They're all in cloud cuckoo land. The world's gone crazy.Sean_F said:
I'm more puzzled to know how some, or all, of the UK remains part of the EU's Customs Union on leaving the EU. That would seem to be neither in our interest, nor in their interest.rottenborough said:
How the f can one part of UK remain in Single Market? I suppose we might see Sunderland and Swindon's car plants move to Belfast.David_Evershed said:Dynamite: May selling the DUP down the river.
BBC reports ......
"Belgian MEP Philippe Lamberts earlier told the BBC's Laura Kuenssberg that the UK had made a concession on the Irish border.
The BBC's political editor said Mr Lamberts had said the UK was prepared to accept that Northern Ireland may remain in the EU's customs union and single market in all but name"0
