politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Irish border issue has the potential to bring down Mrs May

System · December 2017

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Irish border issue has the potential to bring down Mrs May’s government

Yesterday it was reported by several outlets

IanB2 · December 2017

First!

IanB2 · December 2017

FPT:

I agree that the massive swings to the LibDems in tonight's local by's don't say much about the party's national prospects, but it is nevertheless a comment on the current state of national politics that people are so willing to vote for the party most opposed to the approach the national government is currently taking.

On topic, the Tories have been party to a disunited kingdom ever since a substantial proportion of them took us down the path toward Brexit.

alex. · December 2017

What is the DUP’s favoured position/solution to the Irish border question?

IanB2 · December 2017

alex. said:
What is the DUP’s favoured position/solution to the Irish border question?

As with Brexit generally, much clearer on what they don't want than what they do:

http://www.mydup.com/news/article/foster-we-will-not-countenance-new-border-in-the-irish-sea

archer101au · December 2017

IanB2 said:

alex. said:
What is the DUP’s favoured position/solution to the Irish border question?
As with Brexit generally, much clearer on what they don't want than what they do:

http://www.mydup.com/news/article/foster-we-will-not-countenance-new-border-in-the-irish-sea

If all Ireland was interested in was the integrity of the border (rather than trying to help the EU force the UK to follow EU regulations) this would be a pretty easy thing to resolve.

You exempt individuals and vehicles under a certain size from inspection under the existing WTO local border rules. It is not material and everyone can just turn a blind eye. As with Sweden/Norway, you say that individuals can cross anywhere but commercial vehicles have to use certain key routes and they need to have certified and declared electronically, just as happens in NAFTA. You then supplement this with spot checks at points away from the border and audits of major companies doing the transport.

It will not be watertight but more than sufficient. Very few countries do anything else with customs on land borders than spot check in any event.

There is no reason why the UK or NI needs to follow EU regulations. The UK/EU FTA should agree on sectors where both sides accept each others regulations as equivalent. If there are areas that cannot be agreed, you follow the normal trade rules that exports have to comply with the standards of the country you are entering.

As long as the above was followed, I suspect the DUP would turn a blind eye to monitoring of this arrangement by checking goods the cross the Irish Sea to ensure they have complied with these rules. This would not be an internal border, but a logical place to manage compliance.

felix · December 2017

IanB2 said:
FPT:

I agree that the massive swings to the LibDems in tonight's local by's don't say much about the party's national prospects, but it is nevertheless a comment on the current state of national politics that people are so willing to vote for the party most opposed to the approach the national government is currently taking.

On topic, the Tories have been party to a disunited kingdom ever since a substantial proportion of them took us down the path toward Brexit.

And how about last week when the Tories gained a seat and saw votes increase. You also forgot the GE which saw big SNP losses and Tory gains. You also ignore opinion polls which show the Tory vote holding firm despite all the months of bad news and massively negative media coverage. In short a very weak analysis.

Casino_Royale · December 2017

Played right, I'd have thought the DUP could aide May in getting concessions from the EU.

DM_Andy · December 2017

archer101au said:

You exempt individuals and vehicles under a certain size from inspection under the existing WTO local border rules. It is not material and everyone can just turn a blind eye. As with Sweden/Norway, you say that individuals can cross anywhere but commercial vehicles have to use certain key routes and they need to have certified and declared electronically, just as happens in NAFTA. You then supplement this with spot checks at points away from the border and audits of major companies doing the transport.

Norway is in the Single Market though, if the UK were too then there would be no problem with your suggestion or keeping the current arrangements. If we're not going to be then there has to be a hard border.

OchEye · December 2017

archer101au said:

IanB2 said:

alex. said:
What is the DUP’s favoured position/solution to the Irish border question?
As with Brexit generally, much clearer on what they don't want than what they do:

http://www.mydup.com/news/article/foster-we-will-not-countenance-new-border-in-the-irish-sea
If all Ireland was interested in was the integrity of the border (rather than trying to help the EU force the UK to follow EU regulations) this would be a pretty easy thing to resolve.

You exempt individuals and vehicles under a certain size from inspection under the existing WTO local border rules. It is not material and everyone can just turn a blind eye. As with Sweden/Norway, you say that individuals can cross anywhere but commercial vehicles have to use certain key routes and they need to have certified and declared electronically, just as happens in NAFTA. You then supplement this with spot checks at points away from the border and audits of major companies doing the transport.

It will not be watertight but more than sufficient. Very few countries do anything else with customs on land borders than spot check in any event.

There is no reason why the UK or NI needs to follow EU regulations. The UK/EU FTA should agree on sectors where both sides accept each others regulations as equivalent. If there are areas that cannot be agreed, you follow the normal trade rules that exports have to comply with the standards of the country you are entering.

As long as the above was followed, I suspect the DUP would turn a blind eye to monitoring of this arrangement by checking goods the cross the Irish Sea to ensure they have complied with these rules. This would not be an internal border, but a logical place to manage compliance.

In talking about Ireland, unfortunately "logic" disappears out of the window. There are too many with vested interests, legal and more importantly, otherwise. Most already ignore the border, taking advantage of differing currency exchange rates and tax impositions of the two jurisdictions. To impose any kind of barrier from outside the island, isn't going to work, or to put one along the Irish Sea. The Isle of Man would become a major conduit for smuggling and would mean that the RN and the HMRC (Customs and Excise) would be obliged to try and police the area.

felix · December 2017

Casino_Royale said:
Played right, I'd have thought the DUP could aide May in getting concessions from the EU.

Like many junior partners they often tend to overplay their hand and end up losing out.

Recidivist · December 2017

felix said:

IanB2 said:
FPT:

I agree that the massive swings to the LibDems in tonight's local by's don't say much about the party's national prospects, but it is nevertheless a comment on the current state of national politics that people are so willing to vote for the party most opposed to the approach the national government is currently taking.

On topic, the Tories have been party to a disunited kingdom ever since a substantial proportion of them took us down the path toward Brexit.
And how about last week when the Tories gained a seat and saw votes increase. You also forgot the GE which saw big SNP losses and Tory gains. You also ignore opinion polls which show the Tory vote holding firm despite all the months of bad news and massively negative media coverage. In short a very weak analysis.

Politics is never simple. But even a modest Lib Dem revival across the south would make the prospects of a Conservative victory much weaker.

felix · December 2017

Recidivist said:

felix said:

IanB2 said:
FPT:

I agree that the massive swings to the LibDems in tonight's local by's don't say much about the party's national prospects, but it is nevertheless a comment on the current state of national politics that people are so willing to vote for the party most opposed to the approach the national government is currently taking.

On topic, the Tories have been party to a disunited kingdom ever since a substantial proportion of them took us down the path toward Brexit.
And how about last week when the Tories gained a seat and saw votes increase. You also forgot the GE which saw big SNP losses and Tory gains. You also ignore opinion polls which show the Tory vote holding firm despite all the months of bad news and massively negative media coverage. In short a very weak analysis.
Politics is never simple. But even a modest Lib Dem revival across the south would make the prospects of a Conservative victory much weaker.

Yes and there is zero sign of it.

DecrepitJohnL · December 2017

OT but relevant to betting -- porn on Damian Green's machine is back in the news.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42151148

Edit: Damian Green is 3/1 against with Ladbrokes but odds-on with PP to be next out.

Casino_Royale · December 2017

IanB2 said:
FPT:

I agree that the massive swings to the LibDems in tonight's local by's don't say much about the party's national prospects, but it is nevertheless a comment on the current state of national politics that people are so willing to vote for the party most opposed to the approach the national government is currently taking.

On topic, the Tories have been party to a disunited kingdom ever since a substantial proportion of them took us down the path toward Brexit.

More than a bit of confirmation bias there.

LDs took seat from both Labour and Conservatives in local elections last night.

It would be more accurate to say they are simply becoming the alternative party of choice for local government once more, with the added benefit of having that "NOTA" brand.

IanB2 · December 2017

Casino_Royale said:

IanB2 said:
FPT:

I agree that the massive swings to the LibDems in tonight's local by's don't say much about the party's national prospects, but it is nevertheless a comment on the current state of national politics that people are so willing to vote for the party most opposed to the approach the national government is currently taking.

On topic, the Tories have been party to a disunited kingdom ever since a substantial proportion of them took us down the path toward Brexit.
More than a bit of confirmation bias there.

LDs took seat from both Labour and Conservatives in local elections last night.

It would be more accurate to say they are simply becoming the alternative party of choice for local government once more, with the added benefit of having that "NOTA" brand.

I conceded that this didn't indicate a national revival. Nevertheless the LDs weren't ever getting these sorts of swings during the coalition, or shortly after. The shares of the vote they got in last night's contests were massive, and at the least indicate that people are sufficiently unhappy with the major parties to vote for an alternative when it mounts an active campaign.

Recidivist · December 2017

felix said:

Recidivist said:

felix said:

IanB2 said:
FPT:

I agree that the massive swings to the LibDems in tonight's local by's don't say much about the party's national prospects, but it is nevertheless a comment on the current state of national politics that people are so willing to vote for the party most opposed to the approach the national government is currently taking.

On topic, the Tories have been party to a disunited kingdom ever since a substantial proportion of them took us down the path toward Brexit.
And how about last week when the Tories gained a seat and saw votes increase. You also forgot the GE which saw big SNP losses and Tory gains. You also ignore opinion polls which show the Tory vote holding firm despite all the months of bad news and massively negative media coverage. In short a very weak analysis.
Politics is never simple. But even a modest Lib Dem revival across the south would make the prospects of a Conservative victory much weaker.
Yes and there is zero sign of it.

There is little sign, but not zero. Last nights good LD tally shows it is possible.

tlg86 · December 2017

Nigel Dodds's point is an odd one. Devolution is asymmetrical.

DecrepitJohnL · December 2017

tlg86 said:
Nigel Dodds's point is an odd one. Devolution is asymmetrical.

Surely the point is that the SNP will demand any concessions to Northern Ireland be extended to Scotland. I do not suppose Nicola Sturgeon will give a damn about symmetry.

Roger · December 2017

Ot. Anyyone know why the police are doing a character assassination on Damian Green? I wonder whether in the light of recent sex cases they now believe they can simply ignore natural justice?

It's pretty shabby and a far cry from when they were considered the benchmark for police forces around the world.

Roger · December 2017

If Charles is around....Any idea what has happened to Medicx fund?

PClipp · December 2017

felix said:

Recidivist said:

felix said:

IanB2 said:
FPT:

I agree that the massive swings to the LibDems in tonight's local by's don't say much about the party's national prospects, but it is nevertheless a comment on the current state of national politics that people are so willing to vote for the party most opposed to the approach the national government is currently taking.
On topic, the Tories have been party to a disunited kingdom ever since a substantial proportion of them took us down the path toward Brexit.
And how about last week when the Tories gained a seat and saw votes increase. You also forgot the GE which saw big SNP losses and Tory gains. You also ignore opinion polls which show the Tory vote holding firm despite all the months of bad news and massively negative media coverage. In short a very weak analysis.
Politics is never simple. But even a modest Lib Dem revival across the south would make the prospects of a Conservative victory much weaker.
Yes and there is zero sign of it.

Mr Felix, I suspect you have not spoken to many moderate Conservative voters recently. They are dismayed by the incompetence and extremism of the current crop of Tory leaders, and fearful about the damage being done to the economy.

Also, of course, the damage being done to local services by the Conservatives` savage attacks on local government and the NHS.

logical_song · December 2017

IanB2 said:

Casino_Royale said:

IanB2 said:
FPT:

I agree that the massive swings to the LibDems in tonight's local by's don't say much about the party's national prospects, but it is nevertheless a comment on the current state of national politics that people are so willing to vote for the party most opposed to the approach the national government is currently taking.

On topic, the Tories have been party to a disunited kingdom ever since a substantial proportion of them took us down the path toward Brexit.
More than a bit of confirmation bias there.

LDs took seat from both Labour and Conservatives in local elections last night.

It would be more accurate to say they are simply becoming the alternative party of choice for local government once more, with the added benefit of having that "NOTA" brand.
I conceded that this didn't indicate a national revival. Nevertheless the LDs weren't ever getting these sorts of swings during the coalition, or shortly after. The shares of the vote they got in last night's contests were massive, and at the least indicate that people are sufficiently unhappy with the major parties to vote for an alternative when it mounts an active campaign.

I checked the results on Britain Elects. One gain each from Tory, Labour and UKIP, plus one hold for the LibDems but more to the point they scored over 50% in all these elections (one over 60%) and in 2 of the four they had not stood last time. That's quite impressive.

Casino_Royale · December 2017

Off topic, I see some in the Met are continuing to pursue their vendetta against Damian Green, saying he should have resigned a long time ago. Despite the "pornography" being both legal and non-extreme, not having all the evidence anymore and some circumstantial evidence of what may or may not have happened with regard to viewing the material nearly 10 years ago.

I really find this disgusting. It really has gone some way to changing my views of the police.

My sympathies are entirely with Damien Green.

logical_song · December 2017

alex. said:
What is the DUP’s favoured position/solution to the Irish border question?

That's a good question. It seems that they don't want a hard border with Eire, but they don't want any differences between mainland Britain and NI. That seems contradictory unless the UK remain in the Customs Union and Single Market, which TM wants to leave.
It looks like either a massive fudge or a minority Tory government.

Philip_Thompson · December 2017

Casino_Royale said:
Off topic, I see some in the Met are continuing to pursue their vendetta against Damian Green, saying he should have resigned a long time ago. Despite the "pornography" being both legal and non-extreme, not having all the evidence anymore and some circumstantial evidence of what may or may not have happened with regard to viewing the material nearly 10 years ago.

I really find this disgusting. It really has gone some way to changing my views of the police.

My sympathies are entirely with Damien Green.

Also worth noting that the allegation today is not thousands of porn images viewed but thousands of porn "thumbnail" images viewed. Going back a decade or so ago when this occured then someone going once to one site could download dozens if not hundreds of thumbnails on a single page.

Philip_Thompson · December 2017

logical_song said:

alex. said:
What is the DUP’s favoured position/solution to the Irish border question?
That's a good question. It seems that they don't want a hard border with Eire, but they don't want any differences between mainland Britain and NI. That seems contradictory unless the UK remain in the Customs Union and Single Market, which TM wants to leave.
It looks like either a massive fudge or a minority Tory government.

Or unless we get a trade deal with the EU.

OldKingCole · December 2017

PClipp said:

felix said:

Recidivist said:

felix said:

IanB2 said:
FPT:

I agree that the massive swings to the LibDems in tonight's local by's don't say much about the party's national prospects, but it is nevertheless a comment on the current state of national politics that people are so willing to vote for the party most opposed to the approach the national government is currently taking.
On topic, the Tories have been party to a disunited kingdom ever since a substantial proportion of them took us down the path toward Brexit.
And how about last week when the Tories gained a seat and saw votes increase. You also forgot the GE which saw big SNP losses and Tory gains. You also ignore opinion polls which show the Tory vote holding firm despite all the months of bad news and massively negative media coverage. In short a very weak analysis.
Politics is never simple. But even a modest Lib Dem revival across the south would make the prospects of a Conservative victory much weaker.
Yes and there is zero sign of it.
Mr Felix, I suspect you have not spoken to many moderate Conservative voters recently. They are dismayed by the incompetence and extremism of the current crop of Tory leaders, and fearful about the damage being done to the economy.

Also, of course, the damage being done to local services by the Conservatives` savage attacks on local government and the NHS.

Given that so many Tory MP’s are former LG councillors it’s quite surprising the contempt they appear to have for the current crop.

Or. of course, maybe not!

felix · December 2017

PClipp said:

felix said:

Recidivist said:

felix said:

IanB2 said:
FPT:

I agree that the massive swings to the LibDems in tonight's local by's don't say much about the party's national prospects, but it is nevertheless a comment on the current state of national politics that people are so willing to vote for the party most opposed to the approach the national government is currently taking.
On topic, the Tories have been party to a disunited kingdom ever since a substantial proportion of them took us down the path toward Brexit.
And how about last week when the Tories gained a seat and saw votes increase. You also forgot the GE which saw big SNP losses and Tory gains. You also ignore opinion polls which show the Tory vote holding firm despite all the months of bad news and massively negative media coverage. In short a very weak analysis.
Politics is never simple. But even a modest Lib Dem revival across the south would make the prospects of a Conservative victory much weaker.
Yes and there is zero sign of it.
Mr Felix, I suspect you have not spoken to many moderate Conservative voters recently. They are dismayed by the incompetence and extremism of the current crop of Tory leaders, and fearful about the damage being done to the economy.

Also, of course, the damage being done to local services by the Conservatives` savage attacks on local government and the NHS.

Unspoofable!

logical_song · December 2017

felix said:

Casino_Royale said:
Played right, I'd have thought the DUP could aide May in getting concessions from the EU.
Like many junior partners they often tend to overplay their hand and end up losing out.

There is little downside for the DUP in bringing down TMay (not even necessarily the government) as long as they are seen in NI as protecting their voters' interests. TMay needs to take them seriously.

logical_song · December 2017

Philip_Thompson said:

logical_song said:

alex. said:
What is the DUP’s favoured position/solution to the Irish border question?
That's a good question. It seems that they don't want a hard border with Eire, but they don't want any differences between mainland Britain and NI. That seems contradictory unless the UK remain in the Customs Union and Single Market, which TM wants to leave.
It looks like either a massive fudge or a minority Tory government.
Or unless we get a trade deal with the EU.

Would a trade deal negate the need for customs checks and border posts? Do you have any examples that exist currently? Genuine questions.

Casino_Royale · December 2017

Philip_Thompson said:

Casino_Royale said:
Off topic, I see some in the Met are continuing to pursue their vendetta against Damian Green, saying he should have resigned a long time ago. Despite the "pornography" being both legal and non-extreme, not having all the evidence anymore and some circumstantial evidence of what may or may not have happened with regard to viewing the material nearly 10 years ago.

I really find this disgusting. It really has gone some way to changing my views of the police.

My sympathies are entirely with Damien Green.
Also worth noting that the allegation today is not thousands of porn images viewed but thousands of porn "thumbnail" images viewed. Going back a decade or so ago when this occured then someone going once to one site could download dozens if not hundreds of thumbnails on a single page.

Good point.

logical_song · December 2017

Casino_Royale said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Casino_Royale said:
Off topic, I see some in the Met are continuing to pursue their vendetta against Damian Green, saying he should have resigned a long time ago. Despite the "pornography" being both legal and non-extreme, not having all the evidence anymore and some circumstantial evidence of what may or may not have happened with regard to viewing the material nearly 10 years ago.

I really find this disgusting. It really has gone some way to changing my views of the police.

My sympathies are entirely with Damien Green.
Also worth noting that the allegation today is not thousands of porn images viewed but thousands of porn "thumbnail" images viewed. Going back a decade or so ago when this occured then someone going once to one site could download dozens if not hundreds of thumbnails on a single page.
Good point.

Look, the pornography was apparently legal, so who cares.
But you guys (Tory supporters?) coming up with ways in which the images *could* have come to be on the computer smacks a bit of desperation.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42151148
"But Mr Lewis said a check of the computer's internet history over a three-month period showed pornography had been viewed "extensively".
On some days, websites containing pornography were being searched for and opened for several hours.
Mr Lewis, who retired from the Metropolitan Police in 2014, said although "you can't put fingers on a keyboard", a number of factors meant that he was sure it was Mr Green, the MP for Ashford, Kent, who was accessing the pornographic material.
His analysis of the way the computer had been used left the former detective constable in "no doubt whatsoever" that it was Mr Green, who was then an opposition immigration spokesman but is now the first secretary of state.
"The computer was in Mr Green's office, on his desk, logged in, his account, his name," said Mr Lewis, who at the time was working as a computer forensics examiner for SO15, the counter-terrorism command.
"In between browsing pornography, he was sending emails from his account, his personal account, reading documents... it was ridiculous to suggest anybody else could have done it."

The_Apocalypse · December 2017

Looks like the Trump visit isn’t going to happen, although they’ll avoid formally revoking the invite. Good for the government - and glad to see TMay publically condemning Trump’s actions.

MarqueeMark · December 2017

Philip_Thompson said:

Casino_Royale said:
Off topic, I see some in the Met are continuing to pursue their vendetta against Damian Green, saying he should have resigned a long time ago. Despite the "pornography" being both legal and non-extreme, not having all the evidence anymore and some circumstantial evidence of what may or may not have happened with regard to viewing the material nearly 10 years ago.

I really find this disgusting. It really has gone some way to changing my views of the police.

My sympathies are entirely with Damien Green.
Also worth noting that the allegation today is not thousands of porn images viewed but thousands of porn "thumbnail" images viewed. Going back a decade or so ago when this occured then someone going once to one site could download dozens if not hundreds of thumbnails on a single page.

Also worth reading on the BBC link that the notebook highlights the reference to "pornography" - but The Times and the BBC seem remarkably uncurious about (to me) the far more interesting non-highlighted section of his notebook, quote "called Bruce to ask for list of all journalists involved in leaks". Makes you wonder - who was on that list? And what organisations might not want that to be the focus, instead of the contents of the computer....

Hertsmere_Pubgoer · December 2017

Casino_Royale said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Casino_Royale said:
Off topic, I see some in the Met are continuing to pursue their vendetta against Damian Green, saying he should have resigned a long time ago. Despite the "pornography" being both legal and non-extreme, not having all the evidence anymore and some circumstantial evidence of what may or may not have happened with regard to viewing the material nearly 10 years ago.

I really find this disgusting. It really has gone some way to changing my views of the police.

My sympathies are entirely with Damien Green.
Also worth noting that the allegation today is not thousands of porn images viewed but thousands of porn "thumbnail" images viewed. Going back a decade or so ago when this occured then someone going once to one site could download dozens if not hundreds of thumbnails on a single page.
Good point.

Sounds like it was found in the browser cache if it's loads of thumbnails.

alex. · December 2017

Casino_Royale said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Casino_Royale said:
Off topic, I see some in the Met are continuing to pursue their vendetta against Damian Green, saying he should have resigned a long time ago. Despite the "pornography" being both legal and non-extreme, not having all the evidence anymore and some circumstantial evidence of what may or may not have happened with regard to viewing the material nearly 10 years ago.

I really find this disgusting. It really has gone some way to changing my views of the police.

My sympathies are entirely with Damien Green.
Also worth noting that the allegation today is not thousands of porn images viewed but thousands of porn "thumbnail" images viewed. Going back a decade or so ago when this occured then someone going once to one site could download dozens if not hundreds of thumbnails on a single page.
Good point.

It’s amazing Green was ever seen in public at all, considering he is supposed to have spent “several hours a day” browsing porn sites.

Pulpstar · December 2017

Casino_Royale said:
Off topic, I see some in the Met are continuing to pursue their vendetta against Damian Green, saying he should have resigned a long time ago. Despite the "pornography" being both legal and non-extreme, not having all the evidence anymore and some circumstantial evidence of what may or may not have happened with regard to viewing the material nearly 10 years ago.

I really find this disgusting. It really has gone some way to changing my views of the police.

My sympathies are entirely with Damien Green.

Yes, its disgraceful. When did the Met get given the task of moral guardianship for parliament ? Or the wider police force for anyone

Check this:

https://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/david-allen-green/2012/08/shameful-and-nasty-prosecution-simon-walsh

Neil Lewis is talking WAY outside his remit in that interview, the levels of confidentiality he is breaching there are mind blowing. Horrendous.

archer101au · December 2017

DM_Andy said:

archer101au said:

You exempt individuals and vehicles under a certain size from inspection under the existing WTO local border rules. It is not material and everyone can just turn a blind eye. As with Sweden/Norway, you say that individuals can cross anywhere but commercial vehicles have to use certain key routes and they need to have certified and declared electronically, just as happens in NAFTA. You then supplement this with spot checks at points away from the border and audits of major companies doing the transport.
Norway is in the Single Market though, if the UK were too then there would be no problem with your suggestion or keeping the current arrangements. If we're not going to be then there has to be a hard border.

Norway is not in the Customs Union which is what is relevant in this comparison.

Pulpstar · December 2017

logical_song said:

Casino_Royale said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Casino_Royale said:
Off topic, I see some in the Met are continuing to pursue their vendetta against Damian Green, saying he should have resigned a long time ago. Despite the "pornography" being both legal and non-extreme, not having all the evidence anymore and some circumstantial evidence of what may or may not have happened with regard to viewing the material nearly 10 years ago.

I really find this disgusting. It really has gone some way to changing my views of the police.

My sympathies are entirely with Damien Green.
Also worth noting that the allegation today is not thousands of porn images viewed but thousands of porn "thumbnail" images viewed. Going back a decade or so ago when this occured then someone going once to one site could download dozens if not hundreds of thumbnails on a single page.
Good point.
Look, the pornography was apparently legal, so who cares.
But you guys (Tory supporters?) coming up with ways in which the images *could* have come to be on the computer smacks a bit of desperation.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42151148
"But Mr Lewis said a check of the computer's internet history over a three-month period showed pornography had been viewed "extensively".
On some days, websites containing pornography were being searched for and opened for several hours.
Mr Lewis, who retired from the Metropolitan Police in 2014, said although "you can't put fingers on a keyboard", a number of factors meant that he was sure it was Mr Green, the MP for Ashford, Kent, who was accessing the pornographic material.
His analysis of the way the computer had been used left the former detective constable in "no doubt whatsoever" that it was Mr Green, who was then an opposition immigration spokesman but is now the first secretary of state.
"The computer was in Mr Green's office, on his desk, logged in, his account, his name," said Mr Lewis, who at the time was working as a computer forensics examiner for SO15, the counter-terrorism command.
"In between browsing pornography, he was sending emails from his account, his personal account, reading documents... it was ridiculous to suggest anybody else could have done it."

What business of the police is it ??

Charles · December 2017

DecrepitJohnL said:
OT but relevant to betting -- porn on Damian Green's machine is back in the news.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42151148

Edit: Damian Green is 3/1 against with Ladbrokes but odds-on with PP to be next out.

A bit self incriminating

* after the force I was ordered to destroy non relevant information but chose not to

* when I left the force I took a police notebook relating to this politically damaging case

So hearsay, breach of confidence and relying on stolen evidence. All used to attack a cabinet minister over something that isn't illegal

Sandpit · December 2017

Pulpstar said:

Casino_Royale said:
Off topic, I see some in the Met are continuing to pursue their vendetta against Damian Green, saying he should have resigned a long time ago. Despite the "pornography" being both legal and non-extreme, not having all the evidence anymore and some circumstantial evidence of what may or may not have happened with regard to viewing the material nearly 10 years ago.

I really find this disgusting. It really has gone some way to changing my views of the police.

My sympathies are entirely with Damien Green.
Yes, its disgraceful. When did the Met get given the task of moral guardianship for parliament ? Or the wider police force for anyone

Check this:

https://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/david-allen-green/2012/08/shameful-and-nasty-prosecution-simon-walsh

Neil Lewis is talking WAY outside his remit in that interview, the levels of confidentiality he is breaching there are mind blowing. Horrendous.

This is seriously worrying. Former policemen talking about a case they worked on a decade ago, in which no charges were brought and where the evidence no longer exists. For political reasons. Don’t police officers sign confidentiality agreements?

JosiasJessop · December 2017

logical_song said:

Casino_Royale said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Casino_Royale said:
Off topic, I see some in the Met are continuing to pursue their vendetta against Damian Green, saying he should have resigned a long time ago. Despite the "pornography" being both legal and non-extreme, not having all the evidence anymore and some circumstantial evidence of what may or may not have happened with regard to viewing the material nearly 10 years ago.

I really find this disgusting. It really has gone some way to changing my views of the police.

My sympathies are entirely with Damien Green.
Also worth noting that the allegation today is not thousands of porn images viewed but thousands of porn "thumbnail" images viewed. Going back a decade or so ago when this occured then someone going once to one site could download dozens if not hundreds of thumbnails on a single page.
Good point.
Look, the pornography was apparently legal, so who cares.
But you guys (Tory supporters?) coming up with ways in which the images *could* have come to be on the computer smacks a bit of desperation.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42151148
"But Mr Lewis said a check of the computer's internet history over a three-month period showed pornography had been viewed "extensively".
On some days, websites containing pornography were being searched for and opened for several hours.
Mr Lewis, who retired from the Metropolitan Police in 2014, said although "you can't put fingers on a keyboard", a number of factors meant that he was sure it was Mr Green, the MP for Ashford, Kent, who was accessing the pornographic material.
His analysis of the way the computer had been used left the former detective constable in "no doubt whatsoever" that it was Mr Green, who was then an opposition immigration spokesman but is now the first secretary of state.
"The computer was in Mr Green's office, on his desk, logged in, his account, his name," said Mr Lewis, who at the time was working as a computer forensics examiner for SO15, the counter-terrorism command.
"In between browsing pornography, he was sending emails from his account, his personal account, reading documents... it was ridiculous to suggest anybody else could have done it."

The issues are bigger than the pornography. We have police leaking stuff to the media from an investigation deliberately to hurt an individual, where no criminal offence has occurred. If they do it to Green, they could do it to you, or anyone else.

The police's behaviour is the issue here, not anything Green might or might not have looked at.

TonyE · December 2017

JosiasJessop said:

logical_song said:

Casino_Royale said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Casino_Royale said:
Off topic, I see some in the Met are continuing to pursue their vendetta against Damian Green, saying he should have resigned a long time ago. Despite the "pornography" being both legal and non-extreme, not having all the evidence anymore and some circumstantial evidence of what may or may not have happened with regard to viewing the material nearly 10 years ago.

I really find this disgusting. It really has gone some way to changing my views of the police.

My sympathies are entirely with Damien Green.
Also worth noting t... single page.
Good point.
Look, the pornography was apparently legal, so who cares.
But you guys (Tory supporters?) coming up with ways in which the images *could* have come to be on the computer smacks a bit of desperation.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42151148
"But Mr Lewis said a check of the computer's internet history over a three-month period showed pornography had been viewed "extensively".
On some days, websites containing pornography were being searched for and opened for several hours.
Mr Lewis, who retired from the Metropolitan Police in 2014, said although "you can't put fingers on a keyboard", a number of factors meant that he was sure it was Mr Green, the MP for Ashford, Kent, who was accessing the pornographic material.
His analysis of the way the computer had been used left the former detective constable in "no doubt whatsoever" that it was Mr Green, who was then an opposition immigration spokesman but is now the first secretary of state.
"The computer was in Mr Green's office, on his desk, logged in, his account, his name," said Mr Lewis, who at the time was working as a computer forensics examiner for SO15, the counter-terrorism command.
"In between browsing pornography, he was sending emails from his account, his personal account, reading documents... it was ridiculous to suggest anybody else could have done it."
The issues are bigger than the pornography. We have police leaking stuff to the media from an investigation deliberately to hurt an individual, where no criminal offence has occurred. If they do it to Green, they could do it to you, or anyone else.

The police's behaviour is the issue here, not anything Green might or might not have looked at.

Remember that this was a 'Leak enquiry', at the behest of the Labour govt. It was in breach of Parliamentary privilege, allowed by this speaker against the normal rules of parliament. Green was arrested - an MP arrested for being in receipt of information which the govt wanted to remain secret.

Charles · December 2017

Roger said:
If Charles is around....Any idea what has happened to Medicx fund?

Don't know MedicX (although think the trust may have a chunky investment... gulp)

That kind of fund is really a bond like instrument pretending to be equity, so I would assume it's to do with a shift in interest rate expectations.

OldKingCole · December 2017

Charles said:

DecrepitJohnL said:
OT but relevant to betting -- porn on Damian Green's machine is back in the news.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42151148

Edit: Damian Green is 3/1 against with Ladbrokes but odds-on with PP to be next out.
A bit self incriminating

* after the force I was ordered to destroy non relevant information but chose not to

* when I left the force I took a police notebook relating to this politically damaging case

So hearsay, breach of confidence and relying on stolen evidence. All used to attack a cabinet minister over something that isn't illegal

It’s somewhat difficult to imagine what Green has done to the police, or to individual policemen, to warrant this kind of abuse of position.

ydoethur · December 2017

JosiasJessop said:
The issues are bigger than the pornography. We have police leaking stuff to the media from an investigation deliberately to hurt an individual, where no criminal offence has occurred. If they do it to Green, they could do it to you, or anyone else.

The police's behaviour is the issue here, not anything Green might or might not have looked at.

Would it be cynical of me to suggest they are still smarting over the entirely legitimate criticism they received for doing Gordon Brown's dirty work for him and are still frantically trying to justify their behaviour?

MarqueeMark · December 2017

logical_song said:

felix said:

Casino_Royale said:
Played right, I'd have thought the DUP could aide May in getting concessions from the EU.
Like many junior partners they often tend to overplay their hand and end up losing out.
There is little downside for the DUP in bringing down TMay (not even necessarily the government) as long as they are seen in NI as protecting their voters' interests. TMay needs to take them seriously.

TMay as PM => DUP getting pork for NI => DUP heroes back home - so no reason to force an election that risks that arrangement.

Jeremy Corbyn as PM puts that arrangement - and Brexit - at risk for the DUP.

People on here (and more widely) really don't seem to have a clue as to what has been happening, behnd the scenes, where Brexit is actually being thrashed out and delivered. And that is, both the hard-line Brexiteers and the DUP play a role to allow May to show the down-side: of how Brexit happens on WTO terms. Effectively, she can say to Brussels, on the payments (with the Brexiteers) and with the Irish border (with the DUP):

"Gentlemen, what you are proposing means that I have to terminate our discussions for a couple of months, whilst my party decides on a new Prime Minister - because accepting what you are taking about means I cannot survive in post. Good luck in continuing your negotiations in the New Year with Boris...." Ditto for being hard-nosed on the Irish border - "a general election will likely bring the level of confusion on forming a Government that Germany is currently seeing.....and most likely, an even worse outcome in terms of a final deal, with a revitalised UKIP, meaning Nigel Farage holds the balance of power....Good luck in continuing your negotiations in the New Year with Nigel..."

May's domestic weakness - and the alternatives - are her negotiating strength in the Brexit talks. And she is clearly using that to effect.

The other thing people aren't taking note of is that, at the end of the Brexit process, all parts of the Tory Party will be able to come together, saying that they each used their position to assist the Prime Minister in delivering the best deal there could be in all the circumstances, to ensure the voters' demand that we leave the EU, whilst not destroying the UK economy and/or trade between us. The Tory Party comes out of Brexit shoulder to shoulder. EU, pah, that old wound is behind us. Now, on with making the best of Brexit UK.

The Tory Party will be very good at rationalising to itself how the various components worked together to achieve the final Brexit deal.

Scrapheap_as_was · December 2017

Roger said:
Ot. Anyyone know why the police are doing a character assassination on Damian Green? I wonder whether in the light of recent sex cases they now believe they can simply ignore natural justice?

It's pretty shabby and a far cry from when they were considered the benchmark for police forces around the world.

https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/936490160648327168

https://twitter.com/Mr_John_Oxley/status/936493160875864064

Scott_P · December 2017

@GeorgeWParker: Hugely reassured by professional police handling of Damian Green case: not just thorough logging of alleged presence of legal porn on a computer (unrelated to their inquiry) but public spiritedness of former officers bringing it to public attention years later

@JoeMurphyLondon: @GeorgeWParker Also, the keen forward-thinking of a counter-terror detective who, when instructed to delete data, makes sure it can be undeleted later if needed.

JosiasJessop · December 2017

ydoethur said:

JosiasJessop said:
The issues are bigger than the pornography. We have police leaking stuff to the media from an investigation deliberately to hurt an individual, where no criminal offence has occurred. If they do it to Green, they could do it to you, or anyone else.

The police's behaviour is the issue here, not anything Green might or might not have looked at.
Would it be cynical of me to suggest they are still smarting over the entirely legitimate criticism they received for doing Gordon Brown's dirty work for him and are still frantically trying to justify their behaviour?

Oh yes, so very cynical.

And so very correct.

Witness also the Mitchell Plebgate debacle.

ydoethur · December 2017

JosiasJessop said:

ydoethur said:

JosiasJessop said:
The issues are bigger than the pornography. We have police leaking stuff to the media from an investigation deliberately to hurt an individual, where no criminal offence has occurred. If they do it to Green, they could do it to you, or anyone else.

The police's behaviour is the issue here, not anything Green might or might not have looked at.
Would it be cynical of me to suggest they are still smarting over the entirely legitimate criticism they received for doing Gordon Brown's dirty work for him and are still frantically trying to justify their behaviour?
Oh yes, so very cynical.

And so very correct.

Witness also the Mitchell Plebgate debacle.

Sir Humphrey: 'cynic: what an idealist calls a realist.'

TonyE · December 2017

OldKingCole said:

Charles said:

DecrepitJohnL said:
OT but relevant to betting -- porn on Damian Green's machine is back in the news.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42151148

Edit: Damian Green is 3/1 against with Ladbrokes but odds-on with PP to be next out.
A bit self incriminating

* after the force I was ordered to destroy non relevant information but chose not to

* when I left the force I took a police notebook relating to this politically damaging case

So hearsay, breach of confidence and relying on stolen evidence. All used to attack a cabinet minister over something that isn't illegal

It’s somewhat difficult to imagine what Green has done to the police, or to individual policemen, to warrant this kind of abuse of position.

This comes down to Bob Quick originally, who was fired for revealing a secret document to photographers in Downing Street, after having been the officer who apparently ordered the arrest of Damian Green for 'leaking' a secret document from a civil servant.

Scott_P · December 2017

MarqueeMark said:
May's domestic weakness - and the alternatives - are her negotiating strength in the Brexit talks. And she is clearly using that to effect.

ROFLMAO

How quickly the Brexiteers spun from "TMay needs a huge majority to strengthen her hand in the negotiations" to "May's domestic weakness - and the alternatives - are her negotiating strength in the Brexit talks"

Loving your work...

MarqueeMark · December 2017

Scott_P said:

MarqueeMark said:
May's domestic weakness - and the alternatives - are her negotiating strength in the Brexit talks. And she is clearly using that to effect.
ROFLMAO

How quickly the Brexiteers spun from "TMay needs a huge majority to strengthen her hand in the negotiations" to "May's domestic weakness - and the alternatives - are her negotiating strength in the Brexit talks"

Loving your work...

You work with what the voters give you....

OldKingCole · December 2017

Scott_P said:

MarqueeMark said:
May's domestic weakness - and the alternatives - are her negotiating strength in the Brexit talks. And she is clearly using that to effect.
ROFLMAO

How quickly the Brexiteers spun from "TMay needs a huge majority to strengthen her hand in the negotiations" to "May's domestic weakness - and the alternatives - are her negotiating strength in the Brexit talks"

Loving your work...

Yup; what is missing from that analysis is an acceptance of the fact that bringing down TM as PM will almost certainly lead to yet another GE, in which the Tories are very unlikely to improve their position.

Sean_F · December 2017

MarqueeMark said:

logical_song said:

felix said:

Casino_Royale said:
Played right, I'd have thought the DUP could aide May in getting concessions from the EU.
Like many junior partners they often tend to overplay their hand and end up losing out.
There is little downside for the DUP in bringing down TMay (not even necessarily the government) as long as they are seen in NI as protecting their voters' interests. TMay needs to take them seriously.
TMay as PM => DUP getting pork for NI => DUP heroes back home - so no reason to force an election that risks that arrangement.

Jeremy Corbyn as PM puts that arrangement - and Brexit - at risk for the DUP.

People on here (and more widely) really don't seem to have a clue as to what has been happening, behnd the scenes, where Brexit is actually being thrashed out and delivered. And that is, both the hard-line Brexiteers and the DUP play a role to allow May to show the down-side: of how Brexit happens on WTO terms. Effectively, she can say to Brussels, on the payments (with the Brexiteers) and with the Irish border (with the DUP):

"Gentlemen, what you are proposing means that I have to terminate our discussions for a couple of months, whilst my party decides on a new Prime Minister - because accepting what you are taking about means I cannot survive in post. Good luck in continuing your negotiations in the New Year with Boris...." Ditto for being hard-nosed on the Irish border - "a general election will likely bring the level of confusion on forming a Government that Germany is currently seeing.....and most likely, an even worse outcome in terms of a final deal, with a revitalised UKIP, meaning Nigel Farage holds the balance of power....Good luck in continuing your negotiations in the New Year with Nigel..."

May's domestic weakness - and the alternatives - are her negotiating strength in the Brexit talks. And she is clearly using that to effect.

The other thing people aren't taking note of is that, at the end of the Brexit process, all parts of the Tory Party will be able to come together, saying that they each used their position to assist the Prime Minister in delivering the best deal there could be in all the circumstances, to ensure the voters' demand that we leave the EU, whilst not destroying the UK economy and/or trade between us. The Tory Party comes out of Brexit shoulder to shoulder. EU, pah, that old wound is behind us. Now, on with making the best of Brexit UK.

The Tory Party will be very good at rationalising to itself how the various components worked together to achieve the final Brexit deal.

Labour might try and outbid the Conservatives, in order to get DUP support.

AnExileinD4 · December 2017

Re Green

Ignoring the police behavior, it is incredibly concerning that their obligation to permanently delete data is a matter of indifference to them.

Morris_Dancer · December 2017

Good morning, everyone.

Everything is proceeding as I have foreseen... mwahahaha!

I did make both these points yesterday. It's also intensely obnoxious for the EU to try and carve a non-member state up with a customs border.

Mr. D4, indeed. Confidence in police is not exactly brimming as it is.

Sandpit · December 2017

Scrapheap_as_was said:

Roger said:
Ot. Anyyone know why the police are doing a character assassination on Damian Green? I wonder whether in the light of recent sex cases they now believe they can simply ignore natural justice?

It's pretty shabby and a far cry from when they were considered the benchmark for police forces around the world.
https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/936490160648327168

ttps://twitter.com/Mr_John_Oxley/status/936493160875864064

Wow, I agree with Dan Hodges!

MarqueeMark · December 2017

Sean_F said:
Labour might try and outbid the Conservatives, in order to get DUP support.

Tempered by a considerable degree of cynicism that the money then has to actually be delivered by McDonnell.... No, they have TMay exactly where they want her. She'll do, thanks.

NickPalmer · December 2017

Sandpit said:
/they worked on a decade ago, in which no charges were brought and where the evidence no longer exists. For political reasons. Don’t police officers sign confidentiality agreements?

Reading the link, it's clear that Lewis is motivated partly by Green's very personal attack on Quick plus the flat denial of any porn on the systems, both of which looked unwise. *If* Lewis did find what he says, then hearing his former boss attacked as a liar for something he had himself seen would be intolerable. It's obviously possible that he's making it up, but if it's true then I'm not sure that he has a duty to remain silent and let that happen.

I've nothing against Green, who seems pleasant and competent at his job, and I don't really care if he sometimes looked at legal porn 10 years ago (yes, it shouldn't have happened at work, but not IMO a hanging offence): the political implications are limited since if he quit someone else would take the job and we'd all have forgotten about it next week. But I don't think we know enough to be sure that Lewis is behaving unreasonably. I think the Cabinet Office enquiry should include Lewis in their investigation (which apparently they haven't yet), and then we should all just wait and see the findings.

TonyE · December 2017

NickPalmer said:

Sandpit said:
/they worked on a decade ago, in which no charges were brought and where the evidence no longer exists. For political reasons. Don’t police officers sign confidentiality agreements?
Reading the link, it's clear that Lewis is motivated partly by Green's very personal attack on Quick plus the flat denial of any porn on the systems, both of which looked unwise. *If* Lewis did find what he says, then hearing his former boss attacked as a liar for something he had himself seen would be intolerable. It's obviously possible that he's making it up, but if it's true then I'm not sure that he has a duty to remain silent and let that happen.

I've nothing against Green, who seems pleasant and competent at his job, and I don't really care if he sometimes looked at legal porn 10 years ago (yes, it shouldn't have happened at work, but not IMO a hanging offence): the political implications are limited since if he quit someone else would take the job and we'd all have forgotten about it next week. But I don't think we know enough to be sure that Lewis is behaving unreasonably. (which apparently they haven't yet), and then we should all just wait and see the findings.

Do they actually have any power to investigate a member of the public, regardless of his former position?

Sean_F · December 2017

PClipp said:

felix said:

Recidivist said:

felix said:

IanB2 said:
FPT:

I agree that the massive swings to the LibDems in tonight's local by's don't say much about the party's national prospects, but it is nevertheless a comment on the current state of national politics that people are so willing to vote for the party most opposed to the approach the national government is currently taking.
On topic, the Tories have been party to a disunited kingdom ever since a substantial proportion of them took us down the path toward Brexit.
And how about last week when the Tories gained a seat and saw votes increase. You also forgot the GE which saw big SNP losses and Tory gains. You also ignore opinion polls which show the Tory vote holding firm despite all the months of bad news and massively negative media coverage. In short a very weak analysis.
Politics is never simple. But even a modest Lib Dem revival across the south would make the prospects of a Conservative victory much weaker.
Yes and there is zero sign of it.
Mr Felix, I suspect you have not spoken to many moderate Conservative voters recently. They are dismayed by the incompetence and extremism of the current crop of Tory leaders, and fearful about the damage being done to the economy.

Also, of course, the damage being done to local services by the Conservatives` savage attacks on local government and the NHS.

My impression, based on conversations and on the polling, is that most current Conservative voters are reasonably happy with the government. People who are hostile support Labour.

JosiasJessop · December 2017

NickPalmer said:

Sandpit said:
/they worked on a decade ago, in which no charges were brought and where the evidence no longer exists. For political reasons. Don’t police officers sign confidentiality agreements?
Reading the link, it's clear that Lewis is motivated partly by Green's very personal attack on Quick plus the flat denial of any porn on the systems, both of which looked unwise. *If* Lewis did find what he says, then hearing his former boss attacked as a liar for something he had himself seen would be intolerable. It's obviously possible that he's making it up, but if it's true then I'm not sure that he has a duty to remain silent and let that happen.

I've nothing against Green, who seems pleasant and competent at his job, and I don't really care if he sometimes looked at legal porn 10 years ago (yes, it shouldn't have happened at work, but not IMO a hanging offence): the political implications are limited since if he quit someone else would take the job and we'd all have forgotten about it next week. But I don't think we know enough to be sure that Lewis is behaving unreasonably. I think the Cabinet Office enquiry should include Lewis in their investigation (which apparently they haven't yet), and then we should all just wait and see the findings.

Oh come off it. He's behaving utterly unreasonably.

Imagine the police investigated you for something, and you were cleared. However, because a policeman does not like you, they leaked embarrassing information about your personal life (*) just because they wanted to get at you. Not illegal behaviour, and nothing to do with the initial investigation, but just leaking sh*t because they can do.

And yes, it could happen to you, or me. And there's nothing I could do about it because I'm just a pleb.

The police should not act in this manner. It's levels of wrongness piled up into a massive heap of wrong.

(*) Not that I'm saying you have anything to hide, but you know what I mean ...

Sandpit · December 2017

NickPalmer said:

Sandpit said:
/they worked on a decade ago, in which no charges were brought and where the evidence no longer exists. For political reasons. Don’t police officers sign confidentiality agreements?
Reading the link, it's clear that Lewis is motivated partly by Green's very personal attack on Quick plus the flat denial of any porn on the systems, both of which looked unwise. *If* Lewis did find what he says, then hearing his former boss attacked as a liar for something he had himself seen would be intolerable. It's obviously possible that he's making it up, but if it's true then I'm not sure that he has a duty to remain silent and let that happen.

I've nothing against Green, who seems pleasant and competent at his job, and I don't really care if he sometimes looked at legal porn 10 years ago (yes, it shouldn't have happened at work, but not IMO a hanging offence): the political implications are limited since if he quit someone else would take the job and we'd all have forgotten about it next week. But I don't think we know enough to be sure that Lewis is behaving unreasonably. I think the Cabinet Office enquiry should include Lewis in their investigation (which apparently they haven't yet), and then we should all just wait and see the findings.

But why are Mr Quick and Mr Lewis even allowed to talk about these things? It’s a decade-old story which only came up again after the former policemen mentioned the pornography angle to a newspaper in an attempt to discredit Mr Green. I would have assumed that there was a secrecy clause in the contracts of policemen that prevented them from talking to journalists in this way.

There was also one other person very involved in the case at the time, and would know all the details. His role then was the Director of Public Prosecutions, I wonder what he’s up to these days...?

DavidL · December 2017

Casino_Royale said:
Off topic, I see some in the Met are continuing to pursue their vendetta against Damian Green, saying he should have resigned a long time ago. Despite the "pornography" being both legal and non-extreme, not having all the evidence anymore and some circumstantial evidence of what may or may not have happened with regard to viewing the material nearly 10 years ago.

I really find this disgusting. It really has gone some way to changing my views of the police.

My sympathies are entirely with Damien Green.

If it wasn’t for Orwell you’d begin to wonder if there was something about the name Blair. It may be an overstatement to say that is when the rot set in but his leadership of the Met was a disaster.

Roger · December 2017

Scrapheap_as_was said:

Roger said:
Ot. Anyyone know why the police are doing a character assassination on Damian Green? I wonder whether in the light of recent sex cases they now believe they can simply ignore natural justice?

It's pretty shabby and a far cry from when they were considered the benchmark for police forces around the world.
https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/936490160648327168

https://twitter.com/Mr_John_Oxley/status/936493160875864064

Great minds!....except Dan Hodges who's a clown

Cyclefree · December 2017

NickPalmer said:

Sandpit said:
/they worked on a decade ago, in which no charges were brought and where the evidence no longer exists. For political reasons. Don’t police officers sign confidentiality agreements?
Reading the link, it's clear that Lewis is motivated partly by Green's very personal attack on Quick plus the flat denial of any porn on the systems, both of which looked unwise. *If* Lewis did find what he says, then hearing his former boss attacked as a liar for something he had himself seen would be intolerable. It's obviously possible that he's making it up, but if it's true then I'm not sure that he has a duty to remain silent and let that happen.

I've nothing against Green, who seems pleasant and competent at his job, and I don't really care if he sometimes looked at legal porn 10 years ago (yes, it shouldn't have happened at work, but not IMO a hanging offence): the political implications are limited since if he quit someone else would take the job and we'd all have forgotten about it next week. But I don't think we know enough to be sure that Lewis is behaving unreasonably. I think the Cabinet Office enquiry should include Lewis in their investigation (which apparently they haven't yet), and then we should all just wait and see the findings.

Employees are under a duty of confidentiality to their employers. And this duty continues even after they leave in respect of information gained in the course of their employment. A fortiori for information about the details of a police investigation. Revealing confidential information - and the information he has revealed is confidential - is a breach of that duty. Wanting to defend his former boss is not a sufficient justification for doing so. The proper course would be to raise it in private to those doing the inquiry into Mr Green. Not in public. Not to the press.

This is ABC stuff for investigators. That the police appear to be unaware of these basic rules or willing to ignore them is simply wrong and worrying, given the powers they have.

TonyE · December 2017

DavidL said:

Casino_Royale said:
Off topic, I see some in the Met are continuing to pursue their vendetta against Damian Green, saying he should have resigned a long time ago. Despite the "pornography" being both legal and non-extreme, not having all the evidence anymore and some circumstantial evidence of what may or may not have happened with regard to viewing the material nearly 10 years ago.

I really find this disgusting. It really has gone some way to changing my views of the police.

My sympathies are entirely with Damien Green.
If it wasn’t for Orwell you’d begin to wonder if there was something about the name Blair. It may be an overstatement to say that is when the rot set in but his leadership of the Met was a disaster.

His leadership of the Met did exactly what it was designed to do

Sandpit · December 2017

DavidL said:

Casino_Royale said:
Off topic, I see some in the Met are continuing to pursue their vendetta against Damian Green, saying he should have resigned a long time ago. Despite the "pornography" being both legal and non-extreme, not having all the evidence anymore and some circumstantial evidence of what may or may not have happened with regard to viewing the material nearly 10 years ago.

I really find this disgusting. It really has gone some way to changing my views of the police.

My sympathies are entirely with Damien Green.
If it wasn’t for Orwell you’d begin to wonder if there was something about the name Blair. It may be an overstatement to say that is when the rot set in but his leadership of the Met was a disaster.

It was the start of the overt politicisation of the police “service”. This, along with speed cameras, have rapidly destroyed the trust that the average man in the street has for those who are supposed to keep us safe. Huge implications.

Charles · December 2017

logical_song said:

alex. said:
What is the DUP’s favoured position/solution to the Irish border question?
That's a good question. It seems that they don't want a hard border with Eire, but they don't want any differences between mainland Britain and NI. That seems contradictory unless the UK remain in the Customs Union and Single Market, which TM wants to leave.
It looks like either a massive fudge or a minority Tory government.

As said previous - a customs union with a customs union

Choose the key areas (say agriculture). NI sector regs remain aligned with ROI (mechanism is by devolving the power to Stormont rather than by stating that explicitly). Add papers of origin and NI products can freely be sold into EU.

UK adds a special dispensation saying NI ag products can be sold in the U.K. regardless of reg differences.

Job done

Mortimer · December 2017

Cyclefree said:

NickPalmer said:

Sandpit said:
/they worked on a decade ago, in which no charges were brought and where the evidence no longer exists. For political reasons. Don’t police officers sign confidentiality agreements?
Reading the link, it's clear that Lewis is motivated partly by Green's very personal attack on Quick plus the flat denial of any porn on the systems, both of which looked unwise. *If* Lewis did find what he says, then hearing his former boss attacked as a liar for something he had himself seen would be intolerable. It's obviously possible that he's making it up, but if it's true then I'm not sure that he has a duty to remain silent and let that happen.

I've nothing against Green, who seems pleasant and competent at his job, and I don't really care if he sometimes looked at legal porn 10 years ago (yes, it shouldn't have happened at work, but not IMO a hanging offence): the political implications are limited since if he quit someone else would take the job and we'd all have forgotten about it next week. But I don't think we know enough to be sure that Lewis is behaving unreasonably. I think the Cabinet Office enquiry should include Lewis in their investigation (which apparently they haven't yet), and then we should all just wait and see the findings.
Employees are under a duty of confidentiality to their employers. And this duty continues even after they leave in respect of information gained in the course of their employment. A fortiori for information about the details of a police investigation. Revealing confidential information - and the information he has revealed is confidential - is a breach of that duty. Wanting to defend his former boss is not a sufficient justification for doing so. The proper course would be to raise it in private to those doing the inquiry into Mr Green. Not in public. Not to the press.

This is ABC stuff for investigators. That the police appear to be unaware of these basic rules or willing to ignore them is simply wrong and worrying, given the powers they have.

+1. I find it interesting, and most heartening, that almost everyone defends Green against this egregious attack. A bad sign for the individuals involved in these leaks of confidential police investigations.

NickPalmer · December 2017

TonyE said:

Do they actually have any power to investigate a member of the public, regardless of his former position?

Not sure what you mean? The Cabinet Office has been asked by Green to look into the issue and come to an impartial view. If a former policeman says he has relevant evidence, they should interview him and weigh up whether he seems credible and how far it's actually relevant. I don't think they have the power to force him to give evidence, but if he refuses then they can reasonably shrug it off.

Incidentally, as with some of the sexual harassment offences, I do feel uneasy when someone suddenly exposes something a decade after the event. One can be honestly sure of something in retrospect that was slightly different at the time.

Roger · December 2017

Charles said:

Roger said:
If Charles is around....Any idea what has happened to Medicx fund?
Don't know MedicX (although think the trust may have a chunky investment... gulp)

That kind of fund is really a bond like instrument pretending to be equity, so I would assume it's to do with a shift in interest rate expectations.

It hasn't moved more than one or two % for years and then it drops nearly 10% in a couple of weeks (coinciding with me buying a load!!)

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=vw+casino+ad&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b&gfe_rd=cr&dcr=0&ei=-BEhWo7SJ8i3gAbQi7zYDQ

Charles · December 2017

logical_song said:

Casino_Royale said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Casino_Royale said:
Off topic, I see some in the Met are continuing to pursue their vendetta against Damian Green, saying he should have resigned a long time ago. Despite the "pornography" being both legal and non-extreme, not having all the evidence anymore and some circumstantial evidence of what may or may not have happened with regard to viewing the material nearly 10 years ago.

I really find this disgusting. It really has gone some way to changing my views of the police.

My sympathies are entirely with Damien Green.
Also worth noting that the allegation today is not thousands of porn images viewed but thousands of porn "thumbnail" images viewed. Going back a decade or so ago when this occured then someone going once to one site could download dozens if not hundreds of thumbnails on a single page.
Good point.
Look, the pornography was apparently legal, so who cares.
But you guys (Tory supporters?) coming up with ways in which the images *could* have come to be on the computer smacks a bit of desperation.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42151148
"But Mr Lewis said a check of the computer's internet history over a three-month period showed pornography had been viewed "extensively".
On some days, websites containing pornography were being searched for and opened for several hours.
Mr Lewis, who retired from the Metropolitan Police in 2014, said although "you can't put fingers on a keyboard", a number of factors meant that he was sure it was Mr Green, the MP for Ashford, Kent, who was accessing the pornographic material.
His analysis of the way the computer had been used left the former detective constable in "no doubt whatsoever" that it was Mr Green, who was then an opposition immigration spokesman but is now the first secretary of state.
"The computer was in Mr Green's office, on his desk, logged in, his account, his name," said Mr Lewis, who at the time was working as a computer forensics examiner for SO15, the counter-terrorism command.
"In between browsing pornography, he was sending emails from his account, his personal account, reading documents... it was ridiculous to suggest anybody else could have done it."

Former policeman reveals publicly confidential and privileged information. He backs it up with documents stolen from the Met

TonyE · December 2017

Charles said:

logical_song said:

alex. said:
What is the DUP’s favoured position/solution to the Irish border question?
That's a good question. It seems that they don't want a hard border with Eire, but they don't want any differences between mainland Britain and NI. That seems contradictory unless the UK remain in the Customs Union and Single Market, which TM wants to leave.
It looks like either a massive fudge or a minority Tory government.
As said previous - a customs union with a customs union

Choose the key areas (say agriculture). NI sector regs remain aligned with ROI (mechanism is by devolving the power to Stormont rather than by stating that explicitly). Add papers of origin and NI products can freely be sold into EU.

UK adds a special dispensation saying NI ag products can be sold in the U.K. regardless of reg differences.

Job done

It actually doesn't need to do that - it's the EU regs that are very stifling (a form of protectionism). If they just stay within wider intl SPS regs (via Codex), then the UK would never have any problem. The issue would be Mainland exports to NI, where the fear would be about cross border pass through.

foxinsoxuk · December 2017

NickPalmer said:

Sandpit said:
/they worked on a decade ago, in which no charges were brought and where the evidence no longer exists. For political reasons. Don’t police officers sign confidentiality agreements?
Reading the link, it's clear that Lewis is motivated partly by Green's very personal attack on Quick plus the flat denial of any porn on the systems, both of which looked unwise. *If* Lewis did find what he says, then hearing his former boss attacked as a liar for something he had himself seen would be intolerable. It's obviously possible that he's making it up, but if it's true then I'm not sure that he has a duty to remain silent and let that happen.

I've nothing against Green, who seems pleasant and competent at his job, and I don't really care if he sometimes looked at legal porn 10 years ago (yes, it shouldn't have happened at work, but not IMO a hanging offence): the political implications are limited since if he quit someone else would take the job and we'd all have forgotten about it next week. But I don't think we know enough to be sure that Lewis is behaving unreasonably. I think the Cabinet Office enquiry should include Lewis in their investigation (which apparently they haven't yet), and then we should all just wait and see the findings.

Green is one of the more benign of the Cabinet, but didn't this porn allegation arise out of another investigation?

Surely this is best left to the cabinet office investigation, and not spin by either side? A little bit of due process in order, rather than a social media lynching of either politician or ex policemen?

PClipp · December 2017

Sean_F said:

PClipp said:

felix said:

Recidivist said:

felix said:

IanB2 said:
FPT:

I agree that the massive swings to the LibDems in tonight's local by's don't say much about the party's national prospects, but it is nevertheless a comment on the current state of national politics that people are so willing to vote for the party most opposed to the approach the national government is currently taking.
On topic, the Tories have been party to a disunited kingdom ever since a substantial proportion of them took us down the path toward Brexit.
And how about last week when the Tories gained a seat and saw votes increase. You also forgot the GE which saw big SNP losses and Tory gains. You also ignore opinion polls which show the Tory vote holding firm despite all the months of bad news and massively negative media coverage. In short a very weak analysis.
Politics is never simple. But even a modest Lib Dem revival across the south would make the prospects of a Conservative victory much weaker.
Yes and there is zero sign of it.
Mr Felix, I suspect you have not spoken to many moderate Conservative voters recently. They are dismayed by the incompetence and extremism of the current crop of Tory leaders, and fearful about the damage being done to the economy.

Also, of course, the damage being done to local services by the Conservatives` savage attacks on local government and the NHS.
My impression, based on conversations and on the polling, is that most current Conservative voters are reasonably happy with the government. People who are hostile support Labour.

Mr Fear, how do you explain last night`s four Lib Dem triumphs in local government elections in different parts of the country? I think you are a bit out-of-date, as the opinion polls are. They adjust the raw figures too much.

Richard_Tyndall · December 2017

logical_song said:

Philip_Thompson said:

logical_song said:

alex. said:
What is the DUP’s favoured position/solution to the Irish border question?
That's a good question. It seems that they don't want a hard border with Eire, but they don't want any differences between mainland Britain and NI. That seems contradictory unless the UK remain in the Customs Union and Single Market, which TM wants to leave.
It looks like either a massive fudge or a minority Tory government.
Or unless we get a trade deal with the EU.
Would a trade deal negate the need for customs checks and border posts? Do you have any examples that exist currently? Genuine questions.

Not entirely sure but I think Switzerland might be an example. (Reading that back i must say i am genuonely unsure and not being sarcastic). Their relationship with the EU is all based on individual deals rather than being in the EEA. My uncertainty is over the degree of customs checks. So this may be a poor example.

Tissue_Price · December 2017

Charles said:

DecrepitJohnL said:
OT but relevant to betting -- porn on Damian Green's machine is back in the news.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42151148

Edit: Damian Green is 3/1 against with Ladbrokes but odds-on with PP to be next out.
A bit self incriminating

* after the force I was ordered to destroy non relevant information but chose not to

* when I left the force I took a police notebook relating to this politically damaging case

So hearsay, breach of confidence and relying on stolen evidence. All used to attack a cabinet minister over something that isn't illegal

Has Lewis potentially committed a crime?

TonyE · December 2017

NickPalmer said:

TonyE said:

Do they actually have any power to investigate a member of the public, regardless of his former position?
Not sure what you mean? The Cabinet Office has been asked by Green to look into the issue and come to an impartial view. If a former policeman says he has relevant evidence, they should interview him and weigh up whether he seems credible and how far it's actually relevant. I don't think they have the power to force him to give evidence, but if he refuses then they can reasonably shrug it off.

Incidentally, as with some of the sexual harassment offences, I do feel uneasy when someone suddenly exposes something a decade after the event. One can be honestly sure of something in retrospect that was slightly different at the time.

Well I would be concerned that if the former policeman can supply any evidence, he would have obtained it by theft.

Mortimer · December 2017

PClipp said:

Sean_F said:

PClipp said:

felix said:

Recidivist said:

felix said:

IanB2 said:
FPT:

I agree that the massive swings to the LibDems in tonight's local by's don't say much about the party's national prospects, but it is nevertheless a comment on the current state of national politics that people are so willing to vote for the party most opposed to the approach the national government is currently taking.
On topic, the Tories have been party to a disunited kingdom ever since a substantial proportion of them took us down the path toward Brexit.
And how about last week when the Tories gained a seat and saw votes increase. You also forgot the GE which saw big SNP losses and Tory gains. You also ignore opinion polls which show the Tory vote holding firm despite all the months of bad news and massively negative media coverage. In short a very weak analysis.
Politics is never simple. But even a modest Lib Dem revival across the south would make the prospects of a Conservative victory much weaker.
Yes and there is zero sign of it.
Mr Felix, I suspect you have not spoken to many moderate Conservative voters recently. They are dismayed by the incompetence and extremism of the current crop of Tory leaders, and fearful about the damage being done to the economy.

Also, of course, the damage being done to local services by the Conservatives` savage attacks on local government and the NHS.
My impression, based on conversations and on the polling, is that most current Conservative voters are reasonably happy with the government. People who are hostile support Labour.
Mr Fear, how do you explain last night`s four Lib Dem triumphs in local government elections in different parts of the country? I think you are a bit out-of-date, as the opinion polls are. They adjust the raw figures too much.

Just as the LDs were doing well in by elections, even parliamentary ones, in autumn winter 2016. It didn't translate into much in the locals or generals. The LD by election effect is a well known phenomenon; they don't seem to win seats when resources cannot be entirely localised.

DavidL · December 2017

TonyE said:

DavidL said:

Casino_Royale said:
Off topic, I see some in the Met are continuing to pursue their vendetta against Damian Green, saying he should have resigned a long time ago. Despite the "pornography" being both legal and non-extreme, not having all the evidence anymore and some circumstantial evidence of what may or may not have happened with regard to viewing the material nearly 10 years ago.

I really find this disgusting. It really has gone some way to changing my views of the police.

My sympathies are entirely with Damien Green.
If it wasn’t for Orwell you’d begin to wonder if there was something about the name Blair. It may be an overstatement to say that is when the rot set in but his leadership of the Met was a disaster.
His leadership of the Met did exactly what it was designed to do

Tories have always instinctively supported the police. It is the natural response for those with a vested interest in the property laws of a society and the rule of law. But in recent years, since Ian Blair, this has been tested to the limit. The never ending shambles listed in May’s famous speech, the disgraceful and almost certainly illegal conduct in the Green investigation and since, the undoubtedly criminal dishonesty in Plebgate, we are left, particularly in London, with a force that can no longer be trusted or believed.

If that was the objective it succeeded. It’s time some pensions were removed.

Tissue_Price · December 2017

The BBC 5 Live interview with Lewis this morning was extraordinary. Prefaced with a load of cod justification for him coming forward and not once was he asked whether any crime had been committed or if it was a police matter.

None of which means Green is safe, but I was pretty appalled by Lewis and not much less appalled by the interview.

Mortimer · December 2017

Tissue_Price said:
The BBC 5 Live interview with Lewis this morning was extraordinary. Prefaced with a load of justification for him coming forward and not once was he asked whether any crime had been committed or if it was a police matter.

None of which means Green is safe, but I was pretty appalled by Lewis and not much less appalled by the interview.

Indeed.

Is there any liability for a breach of confidentiality in public? There should be.

Mortimer · December 2017

@PClipp - best not to throw around accusations using that word; it gets people into trouble.

Sandpit · December 2017

Tissue_Price said:
The BBC 5 Live interview with Lewis this morning was extraordinary. Prefaced with a load of cod justification for him coming forward and not once was he asked whether any crime had been committed or if it was a police matter.

None of which means Green is safe, but I was pretty appalled by Lewis and not much less appalled by the interview.

That’s shocking. I hope Green reports this to the BBC Trust and to OFCOM.

Richard_Tyndall · December 2017

Casino_Royale said:
Off topic, I see some in the Met are continuing to pursue their vendetta against Damian Green, saying he should have resigned a long time ago. Despite the "pornography" being both legal and non-extreme, not having all the evidence anymore and some circumstantial evidence of what may or may not have happened with regard to viewing the material nearly 10 years ago.

I really find this disgusting. It really has gone some way to changing my views of the police.

My sympathies are entirely with Damien Green.

My faith in the police evaporated over many years but was driven by two events primarily - the actions at and subsequent lies over Orgreave and the stitching up of Andrew Mitchell. The fact that the police thought they couldn't should get away with such abuses of their position means that are no longer fit for purpose.

TonyE · December 2017

DavidL said:

TonyE said:

DavidL said:

Casino_Royale said:
Off topic, I see some in the Met are continuing to pursue their vendetta against Damian Green, saying he should have resigned a long time ago. Despite the "pornography" being both legal and non-extreme, not having all the evidence anymore and some circumstantial evidence of what may or may not have happened with regard to viewing the material nearly 10 years ago.

I really find this disgusting. It really has gone some way to changing my views of the police.

My sympathies are entirely with Damien Green.
If it wasn’t for Orwell you’d begin to wonder if there was something about the name Blair. It may be an overstatement to say that is when the rot set in but his leadership of the Met was a disaster.
His leadership of the Met did exactly what it was designed to do
Tories have always instinctively supported the police. It is the natural response for those with a vested interest in the property laws of a society and the rule of law. But in recent years, since Ian Blair, this has been tested to the limit. The never ending shambles listed in May’s famous speech, the disgraceful and almost certainly illegal conduct in the Green investigation and since, the undoubtedly criminal dishonesty in Plebgate, we are left, particularly in London, with a force that can no longer be trusted or believed.

If that was the objective it succeeded. It’s time some pensions were removed.

The objective it would seem, in legal terms, of the Blair govt, was to increase the criminal law to the extent that no non legally educated man could ever be sure that he hadn't broken a part of it. To make us all 'guilty'. That was the effect of adding 3000 new offences, and removing the differentiation between arrestable and non arrestable offences.

To effect that, a police force was required which would enforce it - politically aware of the power it had been given.

Sean_F · December 2017

PClipp said:

Sean_F said:

PClipp said:

felix said:

Recidivist said:

felix said:

IanB2 said:
FPT:

I agree that the massive swings to the LibDems in tonight's local by's don't say much about the party's national prospects, but it is nevertheless a comment on the current state of national politics that people are so willing to vote for the party most opposed to the approach the national government is currently taking.
On topic, the Tories have been party to a disunited kingdom ever since a substantial proportion of them took us down the path toward Brexit.
And how about last week when the Tories gained a seat and saw votes increase. You also forgot the GE which saw big SNP losses and Tory gains. You also ignore opinion polls which show the Tory vote holding firm despite all the months of bad news and massively negative media coverage. In short a very weak analysis.
Politics is never simple. But even a modest Lib Dem revival across the south would make the prospects of a Conservative victory much weaker.
Yes and there is zero sign of it.
Mr Felix, I suspect you have not spoken to many moderate Conservative voters recently. They are dismayed by the incompetence and extremism of the current crop of Tory leaders, and fearful about the damage being done to the economy.

Also, of course, the damage being done to local services by the Conservatives` savage attacks on local government and the NHS.
My impression, based on conversations and on the polling, is that most current Conservative voters are reasonably happy with the government. People who are hostile support Labour.
Mr Fear, how do you explain last night`s four Lib Dem triumphs in local government elections in different parts of the country? I think you are a bit out-of-date, as the opinion polls are. They adjust the raw figures too much.

Local by elections turn on local factors. There are weeks when both the Conservatives and Labour also do well.

Richard_Tyndall · December 2017

foxinsoxuk said:

NickPalmer said:

Sandpit said:
/they worked on a decade ago, in which no charges were brought and where the evidence no longer exists. For political reasons. Don’t police officers sign confidentiality agreements?
Reading the link, it's clear that Lewis is motivated partly by Green's very personal attack on Quick plus the flat denial of any porn on the systems, both of which looked unwise. *If* Lewis did find what he says, then hearing his former boss attacked as a liar for something he had himself seen would be intolerable. It's obviously possible that he's making it up, but if it's true then I'm not sure that he has a duty to remain silent and let that happen.

I've nothing against Green, who seems pleasant and competent at his job, and I don't really care if he sometimes looked at legal porn 10 years ago (yes, it shouldn't have happened at work, but not IMO a hanging offence): the political implications are limited since if he quit someone else would take the job and we'd all have forgotten about it next week. But I don't think we know enough to be sure that Lewis is behaving unreasonably. I think the Cabinet Office enquiry should include Lewis in their investigation (which apparently they haven't yet), and then we should all just wait and see the findings.
Green is one of the more benign of the Cabinet, but didn't this porn allegation arise out of another investigation?

Surely this is best left to the cabinet office investigation, and not spin by either side? A little bit of due process in order, rather than a social media lynching of either politician or ex policemen?

Another investigation that should never have involved the police.

Richard_Tyndall · December 2017

PClipp said:

Mortimer said:
@PClipp - best not to throw around accusations using that word; it gets people into trouble.
Whereas being corrupt does not.... Right.....

I don't think Mortimer is necessarily disagreeing with you. Rather he wants to avoid getting OGH into trouble through direct accusations against individuals who might sue.

HYUFD · December 2017

PClipp said:

Sean_F said:

PClipp said:

felix said:

Recidivist said:

felix said:

IanB2 said:
FPT:

I agree that the massive swings to the LibDems in tonight's local by's don't say much about the party's national prospects, but it is nevertheless a comment on the current state of national politics that people are so willing to vote for the party most opposed to the approach the national government is currently taking.
On topic, the Tories have been party to a disunited kingdom ever since a substantial proportion of them took us down the path toward Brexit.
And how about last week when the Tories gained a seat and saw votes increase. You also forgot the GE which saw big SNP losses and Tory gains. You also ignore opinion polls which show the Tory vote holding firm despite all the months of bad news and massively negative media coverage. In short a very weak analysis.
Politics is never simple. But even a modest Lib Dem revival across the south would make the prospects of a Conservative victory much weaker.
Yes and there is zero sign of it.
Mr Felix, I suspect you have not spoken to many moderate Conservative voters recently. They are dismayed by the incompetence and extremism of the current crop of Tory leaders, and fearful about the damage being done to the economy.

Also, of course, the damage being done to local services by the Conservatives` savage attacks on local government and the NHS.
My impression, based on conversations and on the polling, is that most current Conservative voters are reasonably happy with the government. People who are hostile support Labour.
Mr Fear, how do you explain last night`s four Lib Dem triumphs in local government elections in different parts of the country? I think you are a bit out-of-date, as the opinion polls are. They adjust the raw figures too much.

Since June most opinion polls no longer adjust the raw data in the same way they did at the general election.

LD success is explained partly by NIMBYISM and opposition to local plans not just an anti government protest vote, after all the biggest swing to the LDs last night came when they won a seat off Labour, not one of their gains from the Tories

Nigelb · December 2017

Cyclefree said:

NickPalmer said:

Sandpit said:
/they worked on a decade ago, in which no charges were brought and where the evidence no longer exists. For political reasons. Don’t police officers sign confidentiality agreements?
Reading the link, it's clear that Lewis is motivated partly by Green's very personal attack on Quick plus the flat denial of any porn on the systems, both of which looked unwise. *If* Lewis did find what he says, then hearing his former boss attacked as a liar for something he had himself seen would be intolerable. It's obviously possible that he's making it up, but if it's true then I'm not sure that he has a duty to remain silent and let that happen.

I've nothing against Green, who seems pleasant and competent at his job, and I don't really care if he sometimes looked at legal porn 10 years ago (yes, it shouldn't have happened at work, but not IMO a hanging offence): the political implications are limited since if he quit someone else would take the job and we'd all have forgotten about it next week. But I don't think we know enough to be sure that Lewis is behaving unreasonably. I think the Cabinet Office enquiry should include Lewis in their investigation (which apparently they haven't yet), and then we should all just wait and see the findings.
Employees are under a duty of confidentiality to their employers. And this duty continues even after they leave in respect of information gained in the course of their employment. A fortiori for information about the details of a police investigation. Revealing confidential information - and the information he has revealed is confidential - is a breach of that duty. Wanting to defend his former boss is not a sufficient justification for doing so. The proper course would be to raise it in private to those doing the inquiry into Mr Green. Not in public. Not to the press.

This is ABC stuff for investigators. That the police appear to be unaware of these basic rules or willing to ignore them is simply wrong and worrying, given the powers they have.

Totally agree.
There are principles at stake rather more important than the career of Damian Green, and whether or not one has sympathy for him is entirely irrelevant.
Nick is surely aware of the hugely controversial case from which this 'evidence' originated in the first place. That the police - retired or not - should compound their offence in this manner is unacceptable.
And what on earth is meant or implied by: "I don't think we know enough to be sure that Lewis is behaving unreasonably..." ?

NickPalmer · December 2017

JosiasJessop said:

Oh come off it. He's behaving utterly unreasonably.

Imagine the police investigated you for something, and you were cleared. However, because a policeman does not like you, they leaked embarrassing information about your personal life (*) just because they wanted to get at you. Not illegal behaviour, and nothing to do with the initial investigation, but just leaking sh*t because they can do.

And yes, it could happen to you, or me. And there's nothing I could do about it because I'm just a pleb.

The police should not act in this manner. It's levels of wrongness piled up into a massive heap of wrong.

(*) Not that I'm saying you have anything to hide, but you know what I mean ...

Yes, I see that, and I think it's peculiar that he kept his notes. But it's part of a series of events. If someone falsely accused a former boss who I liked (I'm not saying this is the case here, but it's possible), I don't think I'd stay silent.

Like Fox I think we should basically leave it to the Cabinet Office to investigate, as I think Green has asked them to do, and avoid piling in on either Green or his accusers.

foxinsoxuk · December 2017

DavidL said:

TonyE said:

DavidL said:

Casino_Royale said:
Off topic, I see some in the Met are continuing to pursue their vendetta against Damian Green, saying he should have resigned a long time ago. Despite the "pornography" being both legal and non-extreme, not having all the evidence anymore and some circumstantial evidence of what may or may not have happened with regard to viewing the material nearly 10 years ago.

I really find this disgusting. It really has gone some way to changing my views of the police.

My sympathies are entirely with Damien Green.
If it wasn’t for Orwell you’d begin to wonder if there was something about the name Blair. It may be an overstatement to say that is when the rot set in but his leadership of the Met was a disaster.
His leadership of the Met did exactly what it was designed to do
Tories have always instinctively supported the police. It is the natural response for those with a vested interest in the property laws of a society and the rule of law. But in recent years, since Ian Blair, this has been tested to the limit. The never ending shambles listed in May’s famous speech, the disgraceful and almost certainly illegal conduct in the Green investigation and since, the undoubtedly criminal dishonesty in Plebgate, we are left, particularly in London, with a force that can no longer be trusted or believed.

If that was the objective it succeeded. It’s time some pensions were removed.

I think one of the more disheartening of modern political trends is for the sensible wings of both conservatism and of liberalism to want to discredit and undermine our democratic organisations and institutions.

There may well be a few rotten apples in the barrel, but attacking the overall institution does permanent damage. This applies to both Parliament and police, and from both Left and Right.

HYUFD · December 2017

Ironically the DUP propping up a weak Corbyn minority government along with the LDs, SNP, Plaid and Greens with the Tories still the largest party and Corbyn and Starmer having to complete Brexit themselves would probably be excellent news for the Tories poll rating even if it did mean a spell out of government.

They would also have opposition almost entirely to themselves.

Nigelb · December 2017

foxinsoxuk said:

NickPalmer said:

Sandpit said:
/they worked on a decade ago, in which no charges were brought and where the evidence no longer exists. For political reasons. Don’t police officers sign confidentiality agreements?
Reading the link, it's clear that Lewis is motivated partly by Green's very personal attack on Quick plus the flat denial of any porn on the systems, both of which looked unwise. *If* Lewis did find what he says, then hearing his former boss attacked as a liar for something he had himself seen would be intolerable. It's obviously possible that he's making it up, but if it's true then I'm not sure that he has a duty to remain silent and let that happen.

I've nothing against Green, who seems pleasant and competent at his job, and I don't really care if he sometimes looked at legal porn 10 years ago (yes, it shouldn't have happened at work, but not IMO a hanging offence): the political implications are limited since if he quit someone else would take the job and we'd all have forgotten about it next week. But I don't think we know enough to be sure that Lewis is behaving unreasonably. I think the Cabinet Office enquiry should include Lewis in their investigation (which apparently they haven't yet), and then we should all just wait and see the findings.
Green is one of the more benign of the Cabinet, but didn't this porn allegation arise out of another investigation?

Surely this is best left to the cabinet office investigation, and not spin by either side? A little bit of due process in order, rather than a social media lynching of either politician or ex policemen?

I don't care much about Green one way or the other, but the police behaviour is, on the face of it, absolutely unacceptable. To criticise it is not 'social media lynching'.

Charles · December 2017

TonyE said:

Charles said:

logical_song said:

alex. said:
What is the DUP’s favoured position/solution to the Irish border question?
That's a good question. It seems that they don't want a hard border with Eire, but they don't want any differences between mainland Britain and NI. That seems contradictory unless the UK remain in the Customs Union and Single Market, which TM wants to leave.
It looks like either a massive fudge or a minority Tory government.
As said previous - a customs union with a customs union

Choose the key areas (say agriculture). NI sector regs remain aligned with ROI (mechanism is by devolving the power to Stormont rather than by stating that explicitly). Add papers of origin and NI products can freely be sold into EU.

UK adds a special dispensation saying NI ag products can be sold in the U.K. regardless of reg differences.

Job done

It actually doesn't need to do that - it's the EU regs that are very stifling (a form of protectionism). If they just stay within wider intl SPS regs (via Codex), then the UK would never have any problem. The issue would be Mainland exports to NI, where the fear would be about cross border pass through.

AIUI, UK rules on animal welfare are generally higher than in the rest of the EU (don't eat Danish bacon).

Papers of origin should cover concern about pass through.

Morris_Dancer · December 2017

Mr. B, as we have a new Black Rod (not ex-military, I think), it's worth recalling it was the first female serjeant-at-arms, usually a former military man but in this case a former civil servant, who let the police rifle through MPs' offices.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jill_Pay

An example of "Yay, diversity!" trumping "Yay, competence for the job!"

Zhuge Liang said that people should be found for jobs, not jobs for people.

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