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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » If Osborne gets this right today could be the game-changer

SystemSystem Posts: 11,690
edited December 2013 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » If Osborne gets this right today could be the game-changer that gives the Tories hope again

We all remember that speech by Osborne at the October 2007 Tory conference that arguably changed the whole narrative and stopped Gordon Brown from going ahead with an autumn general election.

Read the full story here


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    Stuart_DicksonStuart_Dickson Posts: 3,557
    edited December 2013
    What stopped Gordon Brown from going ahead with an autumn general election in 2007 were the astonishing polling figures for the Scottish National Party. Wee Dougie Alexander successfully persuaded his boss that an autumn UK GE would be signing the death certificate of his belovèd SLAB.

    Nothing to do with a Tory conference speech.
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    What stopped Gordon Brown from going ahead with an autumn general election in 2007 were the astonishing polling figures for the Scottish National Party. Wee Dougie Alexander successfully persuaded his boss that an autumn UK GE would be signing the death certificate of his belovèd SLAB.

    Nothing to do with a Tory conference speech.

    That is pure fantasy.

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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Never fails to wind me up how limited the reporting of pensions is.

    You don't have to work until you are 70 - that is just the age you will get a state handout.

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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    @OGH

    "That is pure fantasy"

    I think the IHT pledge as decisive is myth as well. If you read McBride's book or other sources, the polls was moving away from Brown even before Osborne's speech & IIRC there was a terrible marginals poll mid week. All Osborne did was put a very public final nail in the coffin.

    There is also a great difference between them. You can argue about priorities and whatever, but the IHT pledge was simple and executable. Miliban's energy pledge is opportunistic nonsense. It's clearly captured the zeitgeist and identified a real concern for people (although I think it's more the irritation of being taken for a ride by faceless giants - image for you Morris Dancer - than really about the cost of living per se). But I don't think the price freeze part of it is practicably implementable; the energy market review makes sense (and frankly I don't understand why the government hasn't asked the Competition Commission to review vertical integration in the market as a barrier to entry. It's dry and technical but it would allow the government to be shown as acting on the fundamentals as well as playing around with gimmicks)
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    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    edited December 2013
    @Charles Whether you think Miliband’s energy plan is nonsense or not is irrelevant. It has been politically effective and has shaped the narrative for the past 2 months.

    We are now only 17 months off the election and the Tories have failed to dent Labour’s majority winning vote share.

    Every month that goes by and LAB is close to 40 is a month of failure for your party
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    What stopped Gordon Brown from going ahead with an autumn general election in 2007 were the astonishing polling figures for the Scottish National Party. Wee Dougie Alexander successfully persuaded his boss that an autumn UK GE would be signing the death certificate of his belovèd SLAB.

    Nothing to do with a Tory conference speech.

    That is pure fantasy.

    Fits in perfectly in your blog then.

    Ally Carmichael for PM!
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    TGOHF said:

    Never fails to wind me up how limited the reporting of pensions is.

    You don't have to work until you are 70 - that is just the age you will get a state handout.

    It is truly terrifying how the word "pension" has become synonymous with "state pension". If you are relying on the state, especially the British state, to give you income in the later stages of your life then you are an idiot.

    I could have minced my words but I would be doing readers a disservice.

    If you have any working years whatsoever you should be making provision for your retirement. Otherwise you should not be planning to retire. Ever.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    TGOHF said:

    Never fails to wind me up how limited the reporting of pensions is.

    You don't have to work until you are 70 - that is just the age you will get a state handout.

    It is truly terrifying how the word "pension" has become synonymous with "state pension". If you are relying on the state, especially the British state, to give you income in the later stages of your life then you are an idiot.

    I could have minced my words but I would be doing readers a disservice.

    If you have any working years whatsoever you should be making provision for your retirement. Otherwise you should not be planning to retire. Ever.
    Also how limited the thinking around jobs for life is. If you are a 30 yo fireman you shouldn't be whining about climbing ladders at 60 you should be figuring out when you are changing career.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,329
    An important day indeed.

    England need a serious breakthrough with the new ball here. They are behind. Again.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    @Charles Whether you think Miliband’s energy plan is nonsense or not is irrelevant. It has been politically effective and has shaped the narrative for the past 2 months.

    We are now only 17 months off the election and the Tories have failed to dent Labour’s majority winning vote share.

    Every month that goes by and LAB is close to 40 is a month of failure for your party

    I don't deny that. But it is very hard for a responsible(ish) government to counter populist but bad policy. And let's be frank: the energy price freeze is bad policy - but great politics.

    But, as always, I am more interested in what is in the national interest, not who is the temporary custodian of a rather pokey central London pied-a-terre.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    TGOHF said:

    Never fails to wind me up how limited the reporting of pensions is.

    You don't have to work until you are 70 - that is just the age you will get a state handout.

    It is truly terrifying how the word "pension" has become synonymous with "state pension". If you are relying on the state, especially the British state, to give you income in the later stages of your life then you are an idiot.

    I could have minced my words but I would be doing readers a disservice.

    If you have any working years whatsoever you should be making provision for your retirement. Otherwise you should not be planning to retire. Ever.
    Why would anyone actually *want* to retire? Saving ill health, surely it's just a move into a different phase (eg volunteering) rather than working for a living.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    It does have a curious symmetry in that we may have the same pension age as was originally set a century ago by Lloyd George.

    Governments are two faced over pensions though, with raids on pension funds happening at the same time as claiming to want people to fund pensions. I am thinking not only about Gordon Browns pension raid, which has not been reversed, but also changes to lifetime limits and tax relief. Proposed lifetime limits on ISAs are much the same.
    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    Never fails to wind me up how limited the reporting of pensions is.

    You don't have to work until you are 70 - that is just the age you will get a state handout.

    It is truly terrifying how the word "pension" has become synonymous with "state pension". If you are relying on the state, especially the British state, to give you income in the later stages of your life then you are an idiot.

    I could have minced my words but I would be doing readers a disservice.

    If you have any working years whatsoever you should be making provision for your retirement. Otherwise you should not be planning to retire. Ever.
    Also how limited the thinking around jobs for life is. If you are a 30 yo fireman you shouldn't be whining about climbing ladders at 60 you should be figuring out when you are changing career.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,329
    (Turning my attention from the cricket, briefly) The economic recovery has mainly been a matter for the unread financial pages on the very sound principle that good news is not nearly as interesting as bad. Even now the loss of 1,000 jobs somewhere is a headline and the fact that employment is increasing by 2,000 a day is not.

    Today is an opportunity for the good news to dominate the news headlines and hopefully give the tories a lift. They need to break through to the point that that 40% for Labour starts to fade. Winning back some of the Kippers just won't cut it.
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    It has not rained to any significant degree in the Midlands and SE for three weeks now. The forecast points to it remaining largely dry for the foreseeable future. It is time, I fear, to reactivate drought watch. We need some wet weather and plenty of it.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    edited December 2013
    timmy not tackling disposable incomes - very wise - tax aint your strong point.
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    On topic - Miliband has so successfully framed the argument since conference season that anything Osborne does on the cost of living is going to look reactive. The Tories need to make today the beginning of 17 months of relentless focus on living standards, not a pause before they go back to courting UKIPers who have very different interests.
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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited December 2013
    Miliband's grandstanding on energy prices has got him fifteen minutes of publicity, but all he has achieved is to give a simple problem to Osborne to solve. It is George, not hapless Ed, who will be thanked for this year's Christmas present of £50 off energy bills.

    A bit like Panesar bowling to Michael Clark. The ball may be well pitched and turning but spectators will only remember it being dispatched over the ropes by a master batsman.
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    MillsyMillsy Posts: 900
    The govt talks about the economy and Ukip dip from 15% to 10% (today's YouGov)?
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/cartoon/

    Telegraph tries to start a new nickname...


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    It has not rained to any significant degree in the Midlands and SE for three weeks now. The forecast points to it remaining largely dry for the foreseeable future. It is time, I fear, to reactivate drought watch. We need some wet weather and plenty of it.

    We've got plenty of water. You can buy some if you like. For the right price.
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    tim said:

    @TGOHF

    Mid October and you were predicting poll crossover and getting very excited at polling parity, what happened?

    They never, ever, ever learn tim.

    Tory rampers, especially PB Tory rampers, are the worst rampers in the world.
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    tim said:
    Remind me, how many members did the Conservative Party have 8 years ago? And how many members does it have today?
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @TelePolitics: Blog: Autumn Statement 2013: Osborne should stand up, say 'my plan is working' and sit down http://t.co/DKbfiN5dCg
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    edited December 2013
    AveryLP said:

    Miliband's grandstanding on energy prices has got him fifteen minutes of publicity, but all he has achieved is to give a simple problem to Osborne to solve. It is George, not hapless Ed, who will be thanked for this year's Christmas present of £50 off energy bills.

    A bit like Panesar bowling to Michael Clark. The ball may be well pitched and turning but spectators will only remember it being dispatched over the ropes by a master batsman.

    Bills will still be going up. And everyone knows that Osborne has only done it in response to Miliband. The Tory problem is that, amazingly, they have allowed Labour to "own" the cost of living as an issue. It will take time and relentless focus to change that. And how many Tories really do see it as *the* priority, as compared to, say, reducing employment rights, immigration, muzzling the BBC, EU membership and so on?

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    TGOHF said:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/cartoon/

    Telegraph tries to start a new nickname...

    Not bad. It could stick.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    tim said:

    @TGOHF

    Mid October and you were predicting poll crossover and getting very excited at polling parity, what happened?

    Not me pal. But I do remember you predicting that Ed would decisively deal with union funding. You were spot on - he has decisively surrendered unconditionally.

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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815

    On topic - Miliband has so successfully framed the argument since conference season that anything Osborne does on the cost of living is going to look reactive. The Tories need to make today the beginning of 17 months of relentless focus on living standards, not a pause before they go back to courting UKIPers who have very different interests.

    Miliband is trying to get voters to believe in a fantasy world where consumer prices are set by parliamentary diktat and rises in the standards of living are distributed to a grateful public through the largesse of politicians.

    The sane and sensible will reject such seasonal folly.

    Rising standards of living are the consequences of hard earned economic growth and skillfully aquired competitive advantage, all built on the foundations of sound fiscal management. This is what Osborne is delivering.

    It is the only way to deliver real increases in living standards.
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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,930
    Test match:

    265-5 was definitely not what I wanted to see with my

    Ans + 70
    Eng +153
    Draw -130 position

    Yet remarkably it was green. Just what were draw backers expecting - the score indicates to me the pitch is a very SLOW road, like that one in India where England easily got the draw they needed.

    Aus bat a long way down, these 5 wickets may well take quite a bit of time - All three results possible to my mind.

    Anyway I've swapped it for

    Aus +3.99
    Eng +20.90
    Draw +15.20
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    tim said:

    tim said:
    Remind me, how many members did the Conservative Party have 8 years ago? And how many members does it have today?
    It's halved.

    Dave ate half of them by the looks of it.
    Tim, is it not a bit risky slagging off politicians because of their weight? After all...

    http://bellacaledonia.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/johann-lamont-007.jpg

    http://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/jackiebaillie7.jpg

    http://images.icnetwork.co.uk/upl/birmpost/jul2010/2/2/tom-watson-725129957.jpg
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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    TGOHF said:

    tim said:

    @TGOHF

    Mid October and you were predicting poll crossover and getting very excited at polling parity, what happened?

    Not me pal. But I do remember you predicting that Ed would decisively deal with union funding. You were spot on - he has decisively surrendered unconditionally.

    Allons enfants de la Patrie,
    Le jour de gloire est arrivé !

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    MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,203
    TGOHF said:

    Never fails to wind me up how limited the reporting of pensions is.

    You don't have to work until you are 70 - that is just the age you will get a state handout.

    Ah yes, of course! It's only work till you're 70 if you can't afford otherwise. More slavery porn for the Tory right!

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    'Case for Scottish independence boosted by more optimistic economic forecasts'
    ... Dr David Toke, an expert in energy politics, said that since then the UK government's new energy policies had significantly changed the economics of energy investment for Scotland.

    The extra subsidy given to nuclear power – which is being guaranteed for 35 years – and the cuts in offshore wind and marine energy subsidies meant it that would be cheaper over 20 years for Scottish consumers to go it alone.
    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/dec/05/scottish-independence-boosted-cost-green-energy-reforms-ageing
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    AveryLP said:

    On topic - Miliband has so successfully framed the argument since conference season that anything Osborne does on the cost of living is going to look reactive. The Tories need to make today the beginning of 17 months of relentless focus on living standards, not a pause before they go back to courting UKIPers who have very different interests.

    Miliband is trying to get voters to believe in a fantasy world where consumer prices are set by parliamentary diktat and rises in the standards of living are distributed to a grateful public through the largesse of politicians.

    The sane and sensible will reject such seasonal folly.

    Rising standards of living are the consequences of hard earned economic growth and skillfully aquired competitive advantage, all built on the foundations of sound fiscal management. This is what Osborne is delivering.

    It is the only way to deliver real increases in living standards.

    That may well be right. What the Tories have failed to do though is develop a narrative that explains this in a way voters can connect with. Voters are suspicious of Tory motives. Cameron used to understand this. Then the top rate of tax was cut. Political lunacy for marginal - at best - economic gain. But a clear signal about Tory priorities.

    Miliband's price freeze, flawed as it is, sent a very clear message: Labour knows what you're going through; Labour's focus is on making things easier for you. The polls show most voters are sceptical that the specific policy can be delivered. It's the message that resonates.

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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    edited December 2013
    Whatever Osborne says today will be a disaster for the country. The coalition is a complete mess and both the tories and L/dems will lose further support.

    Of course the North Sea surge may wash out any and all political headlines today. I wonder how many offshore windmills will be sunk today?
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    Australia look well placed to make 350 plus. Realistically, that probably means a pretty hefty first innings lead if our batsmen continue in familiar vein.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,930
    The state pension age should already be way over 70 - And I say this as a 32 yr old.

    Anyway I am sure the public will say 'hoorah' to the green shit being cut from their energy bills, but I doubt it will change any VI. And the 70 pension thing is going to be bad politically if it happens which is why it has not till now.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,930

    Australia look well placed to make 350 plus. Realistically, that probably means a pretty hefty first innings lead if our batsmen continue in familiar vein.

    I never spread bet (Well I have a small football one going) but they are normally a\ good guide with their prices. They are 433-443, so I'd expect Aus to make 420 and be well into mid afternoon tommorow before all out.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,344
    Trying to see it in voting intention terms, it sounds quite a voter-friendly package to me. People aged 23 and younger don't usually vote, and people are generally accepting the theme that pension age needs to go up. I think they may feel it's a bit unfair to lump it all onto one generation but let's see the details. Getting rid of VED (I assume it's not just the disc) will be popular - saves drivers money and is one nuisance not to worry about - though I guess there will be issues about it being harder to spot untaxed drivers. And as Mike says it changes the subject from UKIP-friendly immigration. The main downside is that it looks like distraction from the main theme of the statement (which is supposed to be an economy update, not a budget) - whatever Osborne says about the economy is going to be eclipsed by the pension thing.

    As I said earlier in the week, the next couple of weeks will be a good test of how solid that 6-point Labour lead is.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,046
    MikeK said:

    Whatever Osborne says today will be a disaster for the country. The coalition is a complete mess and both the tories and L/dems will lose further support.

    Of course the North Sea surge may wash out any and all political headlines today. I wonder how many offshore windmills will be sunk today?

    First paragraph: what ridiculous nonsense. Why will it be a 'disaster'?

    Second paragraph: a very interesting question. If some do collapse, or there is damage to them or the surrounding infrastructure (cables, substations etc) then they will have to compare the expected damage from such a storm against the observed. This may have long-term consequences for off-shore generation.

    Yesterday the gridwatch website was linked to a few times. Currently, with strong winds, wind generation is down to 6%:

    http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/
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    saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245
    MikeK said:

    Whatever Osborne says today will be a disaster for the country. The coalition is a complete mess and both the tories and L/dems will lose further support.

    Of course the North Sea surge may wash out any and all political headlines today. I wonder how many offshore windmills will be sunk today?

    Attitudes like yours amaze me. You are so entrenched in your bigotry that literally nothing Osbourne can say would meet your approval. It's like a form of illness.

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    MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,203
    Pulpstar said:

    The state pension age should already be way over 70 - And I say this as a 32 yr old.

    Anyway I am sure the public will say 'hoorah' to the green shit being cut from their energy bills, but I doubt it will change any VI. And the 70 pension thing is going to be bad politically if it happens which is why it has not till now.

    Especially when the current generation have often seen their parents retire by 60 and spend ten years travelling the world on large boats and generally consuming. At some point people will question how and why this happened.
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    Getting rid of VED (I assume it's not just the disc) will be popular - saves drivers money and is one nuisance not to worry about - though I guess there will be issues about it being harder to spot untaxed drivers.

    If its the tax as well as the disc, I agree that would be popular round here, but if there's no tax, why will it be harder to spot untaxed drivers? There's no tax to pay.

    In any case, don't the police use online systems for this, where they can check insurance and MOT too?
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    SMukeshSMukesh Posts: 1,650
    So far with what I have heard,I see no reason for VI to change.

    Life expectancy is currently 80 and even less than that for men.So work till you die seems the policy.

    Osborne trying to balance his books by raising the pension age as the tax receipts have failed to materialise.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,930

    Trying to see it in voting intention terms, it sounds quite a voter-friendly package to me. People aged 23 and younger don't usually vote, and people are generally accepting the theme that pension age needs to go up. I think they may feel it's a bit unfair to lump it all onto one generation but let's see the details. Getting rid of VED (I assume it's not just the disc) will be popular - saves drivers money and is one nuisance not to worry about - though I guess there will be issues about it being harder to spot untaxed drivers. And as Mike says it changes the subject from UKIP-friendly immigration. The main downside is that it looks like distraction from the main theme of the statement (which is supposed to be an economy update, not a budget) - whatever Osborne says about the economy is going to be eclipsed by the pension thing.

    As I said earlier in the week, the next couple of weeks will be a good test of how solid that 6-point Labour lead is.

    VED being scrapped ? That'll save my other half over £200 a year. She'll be the one voting Tory at this rate !
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    Good morning, everyone.

    Bloody windy today.

    Mr. SMukesh, life expectancy is over 70, so that statement is generally wrong. However, the initial pension age was set, I think, on the basis that most people would be dead by then.

    The problem is that certain work (typically manual labour or otherwise physical jobs) can't be done by the vast majority past a certain age, which is a distance below the standard retirement age. Hence the problem with firemen's pensions.

    Also, I think it's about 5 clicks from the supposed latest story on the front page to the most recent article.
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    Shocking story about lack of preparation in Brazil:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-25226088

    It's 'stadia', you morons! Not 'stadiums'! You can argue the case many ways with referendum, as it's a gerundive rather than a noun, but stadium is simply a noun.

    The chap on ITV News at Ten last night got it right.

    On a less important note, I wonder how Brazil will cope with the Olympics.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,930
    I can't see the VED being scrapped - will probably change to an online system. Police use ANPR anyway.
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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815

    AveryLP said:

    On topic - Miliband has so successfully framed the argument since conference season that anything Osborne does on the cost of living is going to look reactive. The Tories need to make today the beginning of 17 months of relentless focus on living standards, not a pause before they go back to courting UKIPers who have very different interests.

    Miliband is trying to get voters to believe in a fantasy world where consumer prices are set by parliamentary diktat and rises in the standards of living are distributed to a grateful public through the largesse of politicians.

    The sane and sensible will reject such seasonal folly.

    Rising standards of living are the consequences of hard earned economic growth and skillfully aquired competitive advantage, all built on the foundations of sound fiscal management. This is what Osborne is delivering.

    It is the only way to deliver real increases in living standards.

    That may well be right. What the Tories have failed to do though is develop a narrative that explains this in a way voters can connect with. Voters are suspicious of Tory motives. Cameron used to understand this. Then the top rate of tax was cut. Political lunacy for marginal - at best - economic gain. But a clear signal about Tory priorities.

    Miliband's price freeze, flawed as it is, sent a very clear message: Labour knows what you're going through; Labour's focus is on making things easier for you. The polls show most voters are sceptical that the specific policy can be delivered. It's the message that resonates.

    As the Blessed Margaret bravely said in an eve of election TV interview, "we don't need politicians bleating that they care but governments who care for their people by solving their problems".

    Energy prices need to rise at above the rate of inflation to dampen demand, promote efficiency and ensure that investment needs are met, as far as is possible, out of user revenues.

    When this long term policy results in excessive short term price rises, the proper course of action for the government is to relieve the pricing burden by unbundling tax impositions on retail prices and to ensure that the proportion of the value chain accounted for by energy suppliers is subject to adequate competition. A relatively simple problem with a relatively simple solution. Job done today by Osborne.

    Miliband can bleat about the hardships of living and emote his empathy with those suffering the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, but how feasible and real are his problem solving plans?.

    It is remedial surgery not palliative care that the UK economy needs.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,344

    Getting rid of VED (I assume it's not just the disc) will be popular - saves drivers money and is one nuisance not to worry about - though I guess there will be issues about it being harder to spot untaxed drivers.

    If its the tax as well as the disc, I agree that would be popular round here, but if there's no tax, why will it be harder to spot untaxed drivers? There's no tax to pay.

    In any case, don't the police use online systems for this, where they can check insurance and MOT too?
    Sorry, I meant uninsured. At present, as you say, when you renew VED there's an online check on insurance and MOT. It's not perfect since someone uninsured can drive the car, but it's a passable safeguard. If the VED stage vanishes it'll be more tempting to start driving around uninsured. It's unlikely that the police have the capacity to do serious stop-and-search for insurance records. Presumably a system could check if people haven't renewed insurance but catching the first-timers could be tricky?

    If it's just the disc and not the VED I don't see the point at all - downside and almost no upside except a tiny hassle reduction. But we may as well wait and see later today.

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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,018
    Charles said:

    TGOHF said:

    Never fails to wind me up how limited the reporting of pensions is.

    You don't have to work until you are 70 - that is just the age you will get a state handout.

    It is truly terrifying how the word "pension" has become synonymous with "state pension". If you are relying on the state, especially the British state, to give you income in the later stages of your life then you are an idiot.

    I could have minced my words but I would be doing readers a disservice.

    If you have any working years whatsoever you should be making provision for your retirement. Otherwise you should not be planning to retire. Ever.
    Why would anyone actually *want* to retire? Saving ill health, surely it's just a move into a different phase (eg volunteering) rather than working for a living.
    Yes Charles , fine when you are loaded and have been born with a silver canteen of cutlery in your mouth. I know you do not meet real people very often but I have to tell you lots of them hardly make enough to live on and so volunteering option means they starve. They have no option but to toil till they get the meagre state pension. I expect your next one will be that they should "eat cake", but never mind you will be just fine and can salve your conscience by a bit of volunteering, just to be sure you get your gong.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,018
    DavidL said:

    (Turning my attention from the cricket, briefly) The economic recovery has mainly been a matter for the unread financial pages on the very sound principle that good news is not nearly as interesting as bad. Even now the loss of 1,000 jobs somewhere is a headline and the fact that employment is increasing by 2,000 a day is not.

    Today is an opportunity for the good news to dominate the news headlines and hopefully give the tories a lift. They need to break through to the point that that 40% for Labour starts to fade. Winning back some of the Kippers just won't cut it.

    David , The Tories are stuffed , how bad are they when people prefer that bunch of donkeys on the opposition bench. They will never make it.
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    Getting rid of VED (I assume it's not just the disc) will be popular - saves drivers money and is one nuisance not to worry about - though I guess there will be issues about it being harder to spot untaxed drivers.

    If its the tax as well as the disc, I agree that would be popular round here, but if there's no tax, why will it be harder to spot untaxed drivers? There's no tax to pay.

    In any case, don't the police use online systems for this, where they can check insurance and MOT too?
    Sorry, I meant uninsured. At present, as you say, when you renew VED there's an online check on insurance and MOT. It's not perfect since someone uninsured can drive the car, but it's a passable safeguard. If the VED stage vanishes it'll be more tempting to start driving around uninsured. It's unlikely that the police have the capacity to do serious stop-and-search for insurance records. Presumably a system could check if people haven't renewed insurance but catching the first-timers could be tricky?

    If it's just the disc and not the VED I don't see the point at all - downside and almost no upside except a tiny hassle reduction. But we may as well wait and see later today.

    On the subject of checks for insurance, why not have an insurance disc? I know it relates to the driver(s) and not the car, and doesn't stop uninsured drivers, but that is a more general problem in any case.
    There's not going to be a working solution to this.
    In Kenya, the car is insured, not the driver (this was useful when I was there, as I was able to employ a driver), so there is an insurance sticker for the car, and I think an MOT certificate (or equivalent) sticker.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,018
    AveryLP said:

    Miliband's grandstanding on energy prices has got him fifteen minutes of publicity, but all he has achieved is to give a simple problem to Osborne to solve. It is George, not hapless Ed, who will be thanked for this year's Christmas present of £50 off energy bills.

    A bit like Panesar bowling to Michael Clark. The ball may be well pitched and turning but spectators will only remember it being dispatched over the ropes by a master batsman.

    Avery the £50 is like a fart in a hurricane , Tories ever upwards bills whilst their chums line their pockets will play very badly with the plebs.
  • Options
    Mr. G, there is an issue with energy prices (and a strange lack of competition from an industry with six big players and numerous smaller ones), but it's entirely unfair to make it a party political point. Miliband as Energy Secretary, when he wasn't not crying, said that higher fuel bills were necessary. The Coalition is in power, not the Conservatives.

    The competition issue is weird. In consoles there are only two major players (since Nintendo cocked up the Wii-U) but Sony still decided to stamp on Microsoft's knackers over deranged DRM and verboten second hand sales. One would've thought a market with six large companies involved would be more, not less, competitive.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,046

    Getting rid of VED (I assume it's not just the disc) will be popular - saves drivers money and is one nuisance not to worry about - though I guess there will be issues about it being harder to spot untaxed drivers.

    If its the tax as well as the disc, I agree that would be popular round here, but if there's no tax, why will it be harder to spot untaxed drivers? There's no tax to pay.

    In any case, don't the police use online systems for this, where they can check insurance and MOT too?
    Sorry, I meant uninsured. At present, as you say, when you renew VED there's an online check on insurance and MOT. It's not perfect since someone uninsured can drive the car, but it's a passable safeguard. If the VED stage vanishes it'll be more tempting to start driving around uninsured. It's unlikely that the police have the capacity to do serious stop-and-search for insurance records. Presumably a system could check if people haven't renewed insurance but catching the first-timers could be tricky?

    If it's just the disc and not the VED I don't see the point at all - downside and almost no upside except a tiny hassle reduction. But we may as well wait and see later today.

    I wonder how much the current system costs to manage: sending 30 million-odd tax discs out, or handling them at post offices, must be significant.

    A few years back, it was possible to be insured but not on the electronic MID database. This meant police could stop someone for not having insurance, whilst they had it. ISTR this loophole was filled, and all insurance companies are now in the database.

    You can check whether your vehicle is on the db using askmid:
    http://ownvehicle.askmid.com/askmid.aspx

    As ever with such a change, it would be good to see the rationale behind it. Years ago I saw a couple of police officers walking down a street in Swindon, and they seemed to be checking all the tax discs on the parked cars.

    So what use are tax discs any more? Have the automated ANR systems made the old manualk checks redundant?
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,018

    Mr. G, there is an issue with energy prices (and a strange lack of competition from an industry with six big players and numerous smaller ones), but it's entirely unfair to make it a party political point. Miliband as Energy Secretary, when he wasn't not crying, said that higher fuel bills were necessary. The Coalition is in power, not the Conservatives.

    The competition issue is weird. In consoles there are only two major players (since Nintendo cocked up the Wii-U) but Sony still decided to stamp on Microsoft's knackers over deranged DRM and verboten second hand sales. One would've thought a market with six large companies involved would be more, not less, competitive.

    MD , labour are useless, but they cannot change it at present. The Tories are doing nothing to change the cartel that is energy , purely because they are so entwined in making the huge killings in this market. WE pay their bills so they have little to worry about and care not a jot about the public. Rather than this pathetic £50 gesture , which we will just pay for elsewhere, they should be doing a root and branch reform of the cartel they invented.
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    eekeek Posts: 24,992
    edited December 2013

    In any case, don't the police use online systems for this, where they can check insurance and MOT too?

    Yep, they point a number plate recognition camera in a car point it at the road looking some distance away and it goes beep when it sees an uninsured, untaxed or no MOT car..

    You can seem to get away with not having an MOT for a fairly long period of time (if you forget). I know a lot of people who end up getting their MOT done only when the system says that the car doesn't qualify for road tax. My guess is that by moving road tax being payable by monthly direct debit people will need to be more careful.

    I also note that with the monthly direct debit option being mentioned VED is definitely not scrapped...

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    Mr. G, the annual energy hikes began fairly recently (under Labour), and the number of energy companies has risen (more small suppliers) since the Coalition took office.

    I do agree reform's needed.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,980
    SMukesh said:


    Life expectancy is currently 80 and even less than that for men.So work till you die seems the policy.

    So if you're between 70 and 80, you're as good as dead. Right?

    Here's a shocker, when the pension was introduced in 1925, the life expectancy was actually lower than the state pensions age. It's only got to the state it is in now because nothing was done to increase the pension age in line with the dramatic increase in life expectancy in the previous ~50 years.

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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,216
    malcolmg said:

    Charles said:

    TGOHF said:

    Never fails to wind me up how limited the reporting of pensions is.

    You don't have to work until you are 70 - that is just the age you will get a state handout.

    It is truly terrifying how the word "pension" has become synonymous with "state pension". If you are relying on the state, especially the British state, to give you income in the later stages of your life then you are an idiot.

    I could have minced my words but I would be doing readers a disservice.

    If you have any working years whatsoever you should be making provision for your retirement. Otherwise you should not be planning to retire. Ever.
    Why would anyone actually *want* to retire? Saving ill health, surely it's just a move into a different phase (eg volunteering) rather than working for a living.
    Yes Charles , fine when you are loaded and have been born with a silver canteen of cutlery in your mouth. I know you do not meet real people very often but I have to tell you lots of them hardly make enough to live on and so volunteering option means they starve. They have no option but to toil till they get the meagre state pension. I expect your next one will be that they should "eat cake", but never mind you will be just fine and can salve your conscience by a bit of volunteering, just to be sure you get your gong.
    I think that's unnecessarily offensive to Charles. You don't know why he does charity work but anyone who does - whether rich, poor or on a middling income - deserves commendation not scorn. Also I think that the figures show that it is people who earn relatively little who give a greater proportion of their income to charity so we should be encouraging more of the well off to be equally - indeed more - public-spirited and looking out for their fellow citizens.
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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    malcolmg said:

    AveryLP said:

    Miliband's grandstanding on energy prices has got him fifteen minutes of publicity, but all he has achieved is to give a simple problem to Osborne to solve. It is George, not hapless Ed, who will be thanked for this year's Christmas present of £50 off energy bills.

    A bit like Panesar bowling to Michael Clark. The ball may be well pitched and turning but spectators will only remember it being dispatched over the ropes by a master batsman.

    Avery the £50 is like a fart in a hurricane , Tories ever upwards bills whilst their chums line their pockets will play very badly with the plebs.
    Inflation is under control, at least relative to most prior periods of government over the past five decades. In the Eurozone, there is even a threat of deflation. Even in the UK, current underlying inflation is below 2% with the headline rates pushed up by administrative and regulatory price increases and imported commodity prices.

    Administrative price rises - e.g. railway fare and energy costs - are more stealth 'taxation' in so far as they reflect the transfer of investment obligations out of central government onto the service user. They are part of the rebalancing of the economy away from state dependency towards self-sufficient private sector provision.

    £50 a year may be like a fart in a hurricane to a man with a large fuel tank to fill but it will be welcome to those who would otherwise be seeing the winter through by warming their hands in mittens.

    And have you noticed how motor fuel prices have fallen? Against the trend and as potent as a fart in a beemer, Malcolm.



  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,216
    tim said:

    Anyone tempted to believe anything Christopher Booker and/or John Hemming say should read this

    The patient was represented by the Official Solicitor who instructed a Queen’s Counsel on her behalf. He did not seek an adjournment and did not oppose the application, agreeing that the proposed delivery by caesarean section was in the best interests of the patient herself who risked uterine rupture with a natural vaginal birth. I agreed that the medical evidence was clear and, applying binding authority from the Court of Appeal concerning cases of this nature, as well as the express terms of the Mental Capacity Act 2005, made the orders and declarations that were sought.

    http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/Resources/JCO/Documents/Judgments/re-aa-approved-judgment.pdf

    Tim: that information came out some days ago. The more interesting question is whether, once the child was born, the Official Solicitor involved the Italian authorities, since the mother and child are Italian, the mother was already in the care of the relevant Italian authorities and she was only in this country temporarily.

    However, there may well be more facts the newspapers haven't reported.

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    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351

    SO,

    I agree with most of what you say but not .... "Labour knows what you're going through; Labour's focus is on making things easier for you." No way, we think "Labour is making a political gesture to sway a few votes.

    I mentioned Michael Foot yesterday (of blessed memory) and I still remember him trying to get down and dirty with the working classes. He mentioned "on the never-never" and it was about fifteen years since anyone had ever used the term. I thought .. what's next?, he'll be talking about taking a "diabolical liberty"?

    Cameron may be a posh fop but he's better being honest. The reduction in the top rate of tax undercuts everything. Ed hardly had a deprived childhood so his protestations seem false too. He can speak for the upper-middle class political elite as can many MPs nowadays. It doesn't mean you have to have had it "rough" , just keep it sincere.




  • Options
    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Could apply to any lefty really

    Peter Oborne ‏@OborneTweets 54s
    Why Ed Balls now has zero economic credibility - my column in today's @Telegraph

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/georgeosborne/10494654/George-Osborne-has-given-the-Tories-a-working-plan-for-victory.html
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,018
    Cyclefree said:

    malcolmg said:

    Charles said:

    TGOHF said:

    Never fails to wind me up how limited the reporting of pensions is.

    You don't have to work until you are 70 - that is just the age you will get a state handout.

    It is truly terrifying how the word "pension" has become synonymous with "state pension". If you are relying on the state, especially the British state, to give you income in the later stages of your life then you are an idiot.

    I could have minced my words but I would be doing readers a disservice.

    If you have any working years whatsoever you should be making provision for your retirement. Otherwise you should not be planning to retire. Ever.
    Why would anyone actually *want* to retire? Saving ill health, surely it's just a move into a different phase (eg volunteering) rather than working for a living.
    Yes Charles , fine when you are loaded and have been born with a silver canteen of cutlery in your mouth. I know you do not meet real people very often but I have to tell you lots of them hardly make enough to live on and so volunteering option means they starve. They have no option but to toil till they get the meagre state pension. I expect your next one will be that they should "eat cake", but never mind you will be just fine and can salve your conscience by a bit of volunteering, just to be sure you get your gong.
    I think that's unnecessarily offensive to Charles. You don't know why he does charity work but anyone who does - whether rich, poor or on a middling income - deserves commendation not scorn. Also I think that the figures show that it is people who earn relatively little who give a greater proportion of their income to charity so we should be encouraging more of the well off to be equally - indeed more - public-spirited and looking out for their fellow citizens.
    I disagree, his flippant , oh people can volunteer , typifies the rich Tory "I am all right Jack" attitude of this government. They never stop to think that some people are poor and if they do not work they do not eat, therefore stopping work before pension age and doing something jolly is not an option. It is exactly that type of attitude that gets the Tories the name of the NASTY party.
    Not everybody is rich enough to be able not to work.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    CD13 - cutting the top rate of tax has raised revenue - surely more important than false "fairness".


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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,018
    AveryLP said:

    malcolmg said:

    AveryLP said:

    Miliband's grandstanding on energy prices has got him fifteen minutes of publicity, but all he has achieved is to give a simple problem to Osborne to solve. It is George, not hapless Ed, who will be thanked for this year's Christmas present of £50 off energy bills.

    A bit like Panesar bowling to Michael Clark. The ball may be well pitched and turning but spectators will only remember it being dispatched over the ropes by a master batsman.

    Avery the £50 is like a fart in a hurricane , Tories ever upwards bills whilst their chums line their pockets will play very badly with the plebs.
    Inflation is under control, at least relative to most prior periods of government over the past five decades. In the Eurozone, there is even a threat of deflation. Even in the UK, current underlying inflation is below 2% with the headline rates pushed up by administrative and regulatory price increases and imported commodity prices.

    Administrative price rises - e.g. railway fare and energy costs - are more stealth 'taxation' in so far as they reflect the transfer of investment obligations out of central government onto the service user. They are part of the rebalancing of the economy away from state dependency towards self-sufficient private sector provision.

    £50 a year may be like a fart in a hurricane to a man with a large fuel tank to fill but it will be welcome to those who would otherwise be seeing the winter through by warming their hands in mittens.

    And have you noticed how motor fuel prices have fallen? Against the trend and as potent as a fart in a beemer, Malcolm.



    Avery , was that reference to BMW a small dig at me, below the belt old boy.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    malcolmg said:

    Charles said:

    TGOHF said:

    Never fails to wind me up how limited the reporting of pensions is.

    You don't have to work until you are 70 - that is just the age you will get a state handout.

    It is truly terrifying how the word "pension" has become synonymous with "state pension". If you are relying on the state, especially the British state, to give you income in the later stages of your life then you are an idiot.

    I could have minced my words but I would be doing readers a disservice.

    If you have any working years whatsoever you should be making provision for your retirement. Otherwise you should not be planning to retire. Ever.
    Why would anyone actually *want* to retire? Saving ill health, surely it's just a move into a different phase (eg volunteering) rather than working for a living.
    Yes Charles , fine when you are loaded and have been born with a silver canteen of cutlery in your mouth. I know you do not meet real people very often but I have to tell you lots of them hardly make enough to live on and so volunteering option means they starve. They have no option but to toil till they get the meagre state pension. I expect your next one will be that they should "eat cake", but never mind you will be just fine and can salve your conscience by a bit of volunteering, just to be sure you get your gong.
    Missing the point in your haste to be offensive, you big numpty.

    My point was that "retiring" in the sense of doing nothing would be tedious as hell. My father, for instance, works harder than ever at the age of 73. Part paid work, part charity, part official duties and part "projects". That's his choice. Others may prefer or need to do more paid work.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,018
    Charles said:

    malcolmg said:

    Charles said:

    TGOHF said:

    Never fails to wind me up how limited the reporting of pensions is.

    You don't have to work until you are 70 - that is just the age you will get a state handout.

    It is truly terrifying how the word "pension" has become synonymous with "state pension". If you are relying on the state, especially the British state, to give you income in the later stages of your life then you are an idiot.

    I could have minced my words but I would be doing readers a disservice.

    If you have any working years whatsoever you should be making provision for your retirement. Otherwise you should not be planning to retire. Ever.
    Why would anyone actually *want* to retire? Saving ill health, surely it's just a move into a different phase (eg volunteering) rather than working for a living.
    Yes Charles , fine when you are loaded and have been born with a silver canteen of cutlery in your mouth. I know you do not meet real people very often but I have to tell you lots of them hardly make enough to live on and so volunteering option means they starve. They have no option but to toil till they get the meagre state pension. I expect your next one will be that they should "eat cake", but never mind you will be just fine and can salve your conscience by a bit of volunteering, just to be sure you get your gong.
    Missing the point in your haste to be offensive, you big numpty.

    My point was that "retiring" in the sense of doing nothing would be tedious as hell. My father, for instance, works harder than ever at the age of 73. Part paid work, part charity, part official duties and part "projects". That's his choice. Others may prefer or need to do more paid work.
    Charles, I did not miss the point , it is great your father has the choice , and you will have it as well but your thinking that everybody has the same choice is exactly what is wrong with this country. Far better the Tories tried to make it a better fairer country where more people had the same choice as you and your father rather than having to work till they drop. It is the "Choice" that is the point and you do not get the fact that only a small elite have that "Choice".
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,930
    RobD said:

    SMukesh said:


    Life expectancy is currently 80 and even less than that for men.So work till you die seems the policy.

    So if you're between 70 and 80, you're as good as dead. Right?

    Here's a shocker, when the pension was introduced in 1925, the life expectancy was actually lower than the state pensions age. It's only got to the state it is in now because nothing was done to increase the pension age in line with the dramatic increase in life expectancy in the previous ~50 years.

    Abject failure of previous Gov'ts to increase the state pension age. Its a classic. Only deal with a long term issue when there is a problem and we're in the shit. Why were Gov'ts in the 70s, 80s, 90s, 00s not looking at this ?
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    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351
    TGOHF,

    Reduction of top rate of tax ...

    The tax take may well have risen. If so, you can make that argument, a financial argument. But you're competing against an emotional argument. Unfair, but that's politics. And for what it's worth, I'm happy to be convinced and agree, but few people heard the financial argument.

    You can blame the media, but that's life

    Good finance, bad politics.
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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    malcolmg said:

    AveryLP said:

    malcolmg said:

    AveryLP said:

    Miliband's grandstanding on energy prices has got him fifteen minutes of publicity, but all he has achieved is to give a simple problem to Osborne to solve. It is George, not hapless Ed, who will be thanked for this year's Christmas present of £50 off energy bills.

    A bit like Panesar bowling to Michael Clark. The ball may be well pitched and turning but spectators will only remember it being dispatched over the ropes by a master batsman.

    Avery the £50 is like a fart in a hurricane , Tories ever upwards bills whilst their chums line their pockets will play very badly with the plebs.
    Inflation is under control, at least relative to most prior periods of government over the past five decades. In the Eurozone, there is even a threat of deflation. Even in the UK, current underlying inflation is below 2% with the headline rates pushed up by administrative and regulatory price increases and imported commodity prices.

    Administrative price rises - e.g. railway fare and energy costs - are more stealth 'taxation' in so far as they reflect the transfer of investment obligations out of central government onto the service user. They are part of the rebalancing of the economy away from state dependency towards self-sufficient private sector provision.

    £50 a year may be like a fart in a hurricane to a man with a large fuel tank to fill but it will be welcome to those who would otherwise be seeing the winter through by warming their hands in mittens.

    And have you noticed how motor fuel prices have fallen? Against the trend and as potent as a fart in a beemer, Malcolm.



    Avery , was that reference to BMW a small dig at me, below the belt old boy.
    Of course it was, Malcolm. Your beemer is almost as famous as yourself on PB and deserves to haves its tyres kicked.

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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    CD13 said:

    TGOHF,

    Reduction of top rate of tax ...

    The tax take may well have risen. If so, you can make that argument, a financial argument. But you're competing against an emotional argument. Unfair, but that's politics. And for what it's worth, I'm happy to be convinced and agree, but few people heard the financial argument.

    You can blame the media, but that's life

    Good finance, bad politics.

    Lets test the Laffer curve with the 20p rate then - will solve both...

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    FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    Pulling into Leeds train station. Wonder if I can get a small pasty, or maybe a large one
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    'Downing Street hunt over Alistair Darling whispering campaign'
    - Number 10 'frustrated' by attacks on winning Better Together campaign
    ... The Daily Telegraph understands that Number 10 was extremely frustrated at comments attributed to senior Tories attacking Mr Darling for being “comatose” and criticising his communication skills.

    A Conservative was even quoted as suggesting the pro-UK Better Together campaign should consider replacing Mr Darling with Jeremy Hunt, the English Health Secretary, whose constituency is in Surrey.

    It is understood Number 10 views the intervention as ill-informed and unjustified, with an opinion poll published today shows the Unionists have a 16-point opinion poll lead over the nationalists.

    ... A senior Tory source said: “If I can find out who did this, their head will be on a stick”.

    ... Following yesterday’s reports, Downing Street made placatory telephone calls to Mr Darling and Blair McDougall, the director of Better Together.

    A Number 10 spokesman said the Edinburgh South West MP was “head and shoulders” above anyone else to lead the pro-UK campaign.

    ... An opinion poll published today said support for independence is at 26 per cent, up only a point despite Mr Salmond publishing his White Paper on independence last week.

    Opposition to separation was 42 per cent, down one point, according to TNS BMRB.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10495809/Downing-Street-hunt-over-Alistair-Darling-whispering-campaign.html
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,018
    AveryLP said:

    malcolmg said:

    AveryLP said:

    malcolmg said:

    AveryLP said:

    Miliband's grandstanding on energy prices has got him fifteen minutes of publicity, but all he has achieved is to give a simple problem to Osborne to solve. It is George, not hapless Ed, who will be thanked for this year's Christmas present of £50 off energy bills.

    A bit like Panesar bowling to Michael Clark. The ball may be well pitched and turning but spectators will only remember it being dispatched over the ropes by a master batsman.

    Avery the £50 is like a fart in a hurricane , Tories ever upwards bills whilst their chums line their pockets will play very badly with the plebs.
    Inflation is under control, at least relative to most prior periods of government over the past five decades. In the Eurozone, there is even a threat of deflation. Even in the UK, current underlying inflation is below 2% with the headline rates pushed up by administrative and regulatory price increases and imported commodity prices.

    Administrative price rises - e.g. railway fare and energy costs - are more stealth 'taxation' in so far as they reflect the transfer of investment obligations out of central government onto the service user. They are part of the rebalancing of the economy away from state dependency towards self-sufficient private sector provision.

    £50 a year may be like a fart in a hurricane to a man with a large fuel tank to fill but it will be welcome to those who would otherwise be seeing the winter through by warming their hands in mittens.

    And have you noticed how motor fuel prices have fallen? Against the trend and as potent as a fart in a beemer, Malcolm.



    Avery , was that reference to BMW a small dig at me, below the belt old boy.
    Of course it was, Malcolm. Your beemer is almost as famous as yourself on PB and deserves to haves its tyres kicked.

    Avery , that one is long gone , in these straitened times I am down to a much smaller model. Will be down to a hairdressers special BMW Mini like Sean by the next one.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    tim said:

    Ross Hawkins ‏@rosschawkins 1m
    Iain Duncan Smith tells me Universal Credit might not be complete by 2017. Some 700,000 claimants could be transferred after the date


    Good day for even the not very clever IDS to bury his bad news.

    700k more than would have been on under Labour.

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    tim said:

    @StuartDickson

    A Conservative was even quoted as suggesting the pro-UK Better Together campaign should consider replacing Mr Darling with Jeremy Hunt, the English Health Secretary, whose constituency is in Surrey.

    I'm not sure how much acid and crystal meth you'd have to take to believe that.

    The Tories are just as much The Twits Party as they are The Nasty Party.

    Darling's problem is not so much that his Bitter Together outfit is crap (which it is), but that the entire Conservative & Unionist Party are acting like a huge anchor holding back support for the No side. He needs to sever the chain, or at least give the impression that it is severed.
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    I have to agree with malcolmg here (against Charles). Many (most?) people don't have jolly management type jobs that they would be loathe to give up but have boring, sometimes hard manual jobs that they are doing only to survive.
    The state pension age should be coming down. Where I disagree with 'the left' on this is that retirement age for most of the public sector should be going up to equalise with the state pension age. I would put two questions to two different types of people about this:-
    To the likes of Charles - why should people not be able to have a bit of state support at the end of their lives after toiling for many years at boring ,hard labour jobs?
    To the likes of Unison etc -why should people who work in low paid ,manual jobs in the private sector pay more taxes and work longer so that people who work in more cushy sedate public sector jobs can retire far earlier than them?
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    The tories , if they are ever to win a majority again, need to side with the private sector working class. By raising the state pension and calling people fools for having to rely on it (as some on here have) they alienate the people who might actually potentially vote for them if they can persuade people that their love of the private sector extends not just to owners but alos to its workers
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,930
    MoE stuff. The 32% probably mostly won't vote I'd expect.
  • Options

    The tories , if they are ever to win a majority again, need to side with the private sector working class. By raising the state pension and calling people fools for having to rely on it (as some on here have) they alienate the people who might actually potentially vote for them if they can persuade people that their love of the private sector extends not just to owners but also to its workers

    Sorry its meant to say that they need to persuade people that they represent all people in the private sector not just owners
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,216
    tim said:

    @Cyclefree.
    I think the adoption ruling was released a few days ago, the medical information yesterday

    After Hemming and Bookers behaviour in the Vicky Haigh case they'll stop at nothing, no disinformation campaign is beyond them

    Tim: the fact that the Caesarian was done for medical reasons and not at the behest of Essex social services was made public at the weekend when I learnt it.

    As a lawyer I'm always wary of relying on newspaper reports of legal cases because in my experience the reports are rarely accurate or complete.
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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    A little bit of good news before the Autumn Statement blows in like North Sea Winds

    Cost of living and inflation this time.

    Shop prices in the UK fell by 0.3 per cent year-on-year in November, according to the latest survey data from the British Retail Consortium (BRC).

    Nevertheless, that was "better" than the 0.5% decline seen in October.

    Said drop was driven mainly by promotions on non-food items. Non-food prices decreased 2%.

    Food prices rose 2.3%, the second lowest rise since June 2010, benefitting from better global harvests this year.

    "The seventh consecutive month of deflation is great news for hard-pressed households as Christmas gets closer and confirms that retailers are reading current conditions well," Helen Dickinson, the BRC's director general, remarked.

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    On the other likely measures , all well and good in that Whitehall budgets need to be cut (and cut and cut) , a slight reduction in pointless road tax admin (could have gone the whole hog and got rid of the duty and put it on fuel but hey ho) and that infrastructure spending is far better (even if by the state and occasionally not on paper economical) that spending on benefits .
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,930

    I have to agree with malcolmg here (against Charles). Many (most?) people don't have jolly management type jobs that they would be loathe to give up but have boring, sometimes hard manual jobs that they are doing only to survive.
    The state pension age should be coming down. Where I disagree with 'the left' on this is that retirement age for most of the public sector should be going up to equalise with the state pension age. I would put two questions to two different types of people about this:-
    To the likes of Charles - why should people not be able to have a bit of state support at the end of their lives after toiling for many years at boring ,hard labour jobs?
    To the likes of Unison etc -why should people who work in low paid ,manual jobs in the private sector pay more taxes and work longer so that people who work in more cushy sedate public sector jobs can retire far earlier than them?

    The State spends more than twice on the State pension than it does on the sick, the dole, and HB combined and doubled, and it will go up and up and up. It would be utter financial lunacy to lower the state pension age.
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    Pulpstar said:

    I have to agree with malcolmg here (against Charles). Many (most?) people don't have jolly management type jobs that they would be loathe to give up but have boring, sometimes hard manual jobs that they are doing only to survive.
    The state pension age should be coming down. Where I disagree with 'the left' on this is that retirement age for most of the public sector should be going up to equalise with the state pension age. I would put two questions to two different types of people about this:-
    To the likes of Charles - why should people not be able to have a bit of state support at the end of their lives after toiling for many years at boring ,hard labour jobs?
    To the likes of Unison etc -why should people who work in low paid ,manual jobs in the private sector pay more taxes and work longer so that people who work in more cushy sedate public sector jobs can retire far earlier than them?

    The State spends more than twice on the State pension than it does on the sick, the dole, and HB combined and doubled, and it will go up and up and up. It would be utter financial lunacy to lower the state pension age.
    Not if public sector pension age limits were raised to equal it (say at 65) and payouts from them chopped. Police officers for instance get a massive tax free lump sum at a ridiculous age and then a massive proportion of their salary for ever more form that point
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    tim said:

    Charles said:

    malcolmg said:

    Charles said:

    TGOHF said:

    Never fails to wind me up how limited the reporting of pensions is.

    You don't have to work until you are 70 - that is just the age you will get a state handout.

    It is truly terrifying how the word "pension" has become synonymous with "state pension". If you are relying on the state, especially the British state, to give you income in the later stages of your life then you are an idiot.

    I could have minced my words but I would be doing readers a disservice.

    If you have any working years whatsoever you should be making provision for your retirement. Otherwise you should not be planning to retire. Ever.
    Why would anyone actually *want* to retire? Saving ill health, surely it's just a move into a different phase (eg volunteering) rather than working for a living.
    Yes Charles , fine when you are loaded and have been born with a silver canteen of cutlery in your mouth. I know you do not meet real people very often but I have to tell you lots of them hardly make enough to live on and so volunteering option means they starve. They have no option but to toil till they get the meagre state pension. I expect your next one will be that they should "eat cake", but never mind you will be just fine and can salve your conscience by a bit of volunteering, just to be sure you get your gong.
    Missing the point in your haste to be offensive, you big numpty.

    My point was that "retiring" in the sense of doing nothing would be tedious as hell. My father, for instance, works harder than ever at the age of 73. Part paid work, part charity, part official duties and part "projects". That's his choice. Others may prefer or need to do more paid work.
    Then why have a retirement age at all, surely phasing in pension payments makes sense as people go part time.

    Haven't thought through the practical implications, but there's an argument for that. Overall, though, there are too many changes in pensions rules. They should be simple and constant so that people can plan accordingly. (And, at a risk of unleashing the wrath of Neil, they need to be more balanced between the public and private sectors)
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    b forcing people to work till 70 you also do not free up jobs for school and university leavers. Benefits should be paid to people who are 65 not 25
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,329

    I have to agree with malcolmg here (against Charles). Many (most?) people don't have jolly management type jobs that they would be loathe to give up but have boring, sometimes hard manual jobs that they are doing only to survive.
    The state pension age should be coming down. Where I disagree with 'the left' on this is that retirement age for most of the public sector should be going up to equalise with the state pension age. I would put two questions to two different types of people about this:-
    To the likes of Charles - why should people not be able to have a bit of state support at the end of their lives after toiling for many years at boring ,hard labour jobs?
    To the likes of Unison etc -why should people who work in low paid ,manual jobs in the private sector pay more taxes and work longer so that people who work in more cushy sedate public sector jobs can retire far earlier than them?

    After the considerable irritation of local authority pay offs we are now seeing that teachers in their 50s are being offered "packages" to retire early (that is earlier than the absurdly young age of 60) to create more space for younger, newly qualified teachers.

    I do not believe we will ever again see a generation as absurdly mollycoddled as those in the public sector in their 50s over the last 10 years. The amount of public money spent encouraging these people to go into well paid retirement is bankrupting the country. It really needs to stop.

    Those who have careers such as fireman or police that have substantial physical requirements simply have to accept that such jobs are only the first part of their career and that they will need a second one to get to retirement age (67 and counting). My father did 22 years in the army and then another 20 in education. For military personnel there has always been a second career. How and why do people think they can retire at the cost of the rest of us in this way?

    My neighbour retired from Local Government on a full pension of nearly £50K a year at 59. I see him pottering around his garden and wandering down to the bowls club. It really makes me angry. When I am still working (health permitting) 10 years after I reach that age paying taxes to fund that largesse I will be even angrier.



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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,930
    edited December 2013

    b forcing people to work till 70 you also do not free up jobs for school and university leavers. Benefits should be paid to people who are 65 not 25

    I think you are misnamed - State_for_the_middle_aged perhaps ?

    I'll agree with you on the public sector pension stuff though - up those as well.

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    philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    Working longer defuses the demographic time bomb.
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    Andrew Hawkins ‏@Andrew_ComRes 54s
    ComRes/ITV News Index: public trust in Osborne's econ competence hits 2.5-year high #autumnstatement http://ht.ly/rtd15

    Bad news for the PB Kinnocks..
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,930
    edited December 2013
    DavidL said:

    I have to agree with malcolmg here (against Charles). Many (most?) people don't have jolly management type jobs that they would be loathe to give up but have boring, sometimes hard manual jobs that they are doing only to survive.
    The state pension age should be coming down. Where I disagree with 'the left' on this is that retirement age for most of the public sector should be going up to equalise with the state pension age. I would put two questions to two different types of people about this:-
    To the likes of Charles - why should people not be able to have a bit of state support at the end of their lives after toiling for many years at boring ,hard labour jobs?
    To the likes of Unison etc -why should people who work in low paid ,manual jobs in the private sector pay more taxes and work longer so that people who work in more cushy sedate public sector jobs can retire far earlier than them?

    After the considerable irritation of local authority pay offs we are now seeing that teachers in their 50s are being offered "packages" to retire early (that is earlier than the absurdly young age of 60) to create more space for younger, newly qualified teachers.

    I do not believe we will ever again see a generation as absurdly mollycoddled as those in the public sector in their 50s over the last 10 years. The amount of public money spent encouraging these people to go into well paid retirement is bankrupting the country. It really needs to stop.

    Those who have careers such as fireman or police that have substantial physical requirements simply have to accept that such jobs are only the first part of their career and that they will need a second one to get to retirement age (67 and counting). My father did 22 years in the army and then another 20 in education. For military personnel there has always been a second career. How and why do people think they can retire at the cost of the rest of us in this way?

    My neighbour retired from Local Government on a full pension of nearly £50K a year at 59. I see him pottering around his garden and wandering down to the bowls club. It really makes me angry. When I am still working (health permitting) 10 years after I reach that age paying taxes to fund that largesse I will be even angrier.



    Shoot the baby boomers ;)

    Seriously though ridiculous isn't it ? Pure economic mismanagement and incompetence that has lead us to this situation.
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    philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    DavidL said:

    I have to agree with malcolmg here (against Charles). Many (most?) people don't have jolly management type jobs that they would be loathe to give up but have boring, sometimes hard manual jobs that they are doing only to survive.
    The state pension age should be coming down. Where I disagree with 'the left' on this is that retirement age for most of the public sector should be going up to equalise with the state pension age. I would put two questions to two different types of people about this:-
    To the likes of Charles - why should people not be able to have a bit of state support at the end of their lives after toiling for many years at boring ,hard labour jobs?
    To the likes of Unison etc -why should people who work in low paid ,manual jobs in the private sector pay more taxes and work longer so that people who work in more cushy sedate public sector jobs can retire far earlier than them?

    After the considerable irritation of local authority pay offs we are now seeing that teachers in their 50s are being offered "packages" to retire early (that is earlier than the absurdly young age of 60) to create more space for younger, newly qualified teachers.

    I do not believe we will ever again see a generation as absurdly mollycoddled as those in the public sector in their 50s over the last 10 years. The amount of public money spent encouraging these people to go into well paid retirement is bankrupting the country. It really needs to stop.

    Those who have careers such as fireman or police that have substantial physical requirements simply have to accept that such jobs are only the first part of their career and that they will need a second one to get to retirement age (67 and counting). My father did 22 years in the army and then another 20 in education. For military personnel there has always been a second career. How and why do people think they can retire at the cost of the rest of us in this way?

    My neighbour retired from Local Government on a full pension of nearly £50K a year at 59. I see him pottering around his garden and wandering down to the bowls club. It really makes me angry. When I am still working (health permitting) 10 years after I reach that age paying taxes to fund that largesse I will be even angrier.



    Be reasonable, the poor dears deserve some comfort after the years of job insecurity and poor conditions they have endured as out servants.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    I have to agree with malcolmg here (against Charles). Many (most?) people don't have jolly management type jobs that they would be loathe to give up but have boring, sometimes hard manual jobs that they are doing only to survive.
    The state pension age should be coming down. Where I disagree with 'the left' on this is that retirement age for most of the public sector should be going up to equalise with the state pension age. I would put two questions to two different types of people about this:-
    To the likes of Charles - why should people not be able to have a bit of state support at the end of their lives after toiling for many years at boring ,hard labour jobs?
    To the likes of Unison etc -why should people who work in low paid ,manual jobs in the private sector pay more taxes and work longer so that people who work in more cushy sedate public sector jobs can retire far earlier than them?

    Oi, I never said anything about reducing the state pension!

    The point I was making (which perhaps could have been better expressed) was that it is foolish to think about a fixed retirement date, but that full-time, part-time, voluntary work etc should all be part of the mix. The state pension can play an important in ensuring that people have a few more options as they get older than most do before that date.

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    Pulpstar said:

    MoE stuff. The 32% probably mostly won't vote I'd expect.
    Not according to what the respondees tell the pollster.
    'Certain/very likely to vote' shows 25% DK, Yes 29%, No 46%.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,930
    tim said:

    Can any PB Tory explain to me why someone as thick, dishonest and incompetent as IDS was ever put in charge of a govt flagship policy.
    If anyone knows how utterly useless he it's Tory members, colleagues, MP's and everyone he ever worked with on anything at all.

    And he'll now get even worse headlines for trying to bury his uselessness under Osbornes statement

    Cameron needs to ship him off, not least to make my 12-1 on him a winner...
This discussion has been closed.