Top 5 priorities of Leave voters in order from the Brexit negotiations according to a new Ashcroft poll
1 The UK no longer having to make any payments to the EU 2 The UK being able to negotiate its own FTAs with countries outside Europe 3 The UK no longer being subject to ECJ judgements 4 The UK being able to pick and choose which EU citizens can come to live and work in the UK rather than their having an automatic right to do so 5 Keeping the City of London as Europe's biggest and most important financial centre
Top 5 priorities of Remain voters in order from the Brexit negotiations
MP compliments single fellow MP on her appearance and asks her out shock.
And asks her to destroy the letter
Still does not equate to harassment as far as I can see, more to do with the fact he is married. More an issue for his wife than the object of his affections I suspect.
MP compliments single fellow MP on her appearance and asks her out shock.
Absurd!
Repeatedly, over a period of 20 years, with no hint of response
Not sure whether that's harassment or stalking but either way it's despicable
In the context of recent allegations receiving some unwanted love letters from a rather delusional older man is not really in the same league
Not in the same league does not mean it was appropriate. Of course that will mean any punishment, as such, would not be in the same league either. The repetition in the face of the unwantedness seems the main issue.
MP compliments single fellow MP on her appearance and asks her out shock.
Absurd!
Repeatedly, over a period of 20 years, with no hint of response
Not sure whether that's harassment or stalking but either way it's despicable
In the context of recent allegations receiving some unwanted love letters from a rather delusional older man is not really in the same league
Not in the same league does not mean it was appropriate. Of course that will mean any punishment, as such, would not be in the same league either. The repetition in the face of the unwantedness seems the main issue.
MP compliments single fellow MP on her appearance and asks her out shock.
Absurd!
Repeatedly, over a period of 20 years, with no hint of response
Not sure whether that's harassment or stalking but either way it's despicable
In the context of recent allegations receiving some unwanted love letters from a rather delusional older man is not really in the same league
Not in the same league does not mean it was appropriate. Of course that will mean any punishment, as such, would not be in the same league either. The repetition in the face of the unwantedness seems the main issue.
MP compliments single fellow MP on her appearance and asks her out shock.
Absurd!
Repeatedly, over a period of 20 years, with no hint of response
Not sure whether that's harassment or stalking but either way it's despicable
In the context of recent allegations receiving some unwanted love letters from a rather delusional older man is not really in the same league
Not in the same league does not mean it was appropriate. Of course that will mean any punishment, as such, would not be in the same league either. The repetition in the face of the unwantedness seems the main issue.
Did she tell him it was unwanted?
Lack of reciprocity or acknowledgement would be a good indication he should take the hint, I would think generally, but I reserve full judgement pending other details should they emerge.
MP compliments single fellow MP on her appearance and asks her out shock.
Absurd!
Repeatedly, over a period of 20 years, with no hint of response
Not sure whether that's harassment or stalking but either way it's despicable
In the context of recent allegations receiving some unwanted love letters from a rather delusional older man is not really in the same league
Not in the same league does not mean it was appropriate. Of course that will mean any punishment, as such, would not be in the same league either. The repetition in the face of the unwantedness seems the main issue.
Did she tell him it was unwanted?
No positive response in 20 years. Maybe he's slow to get the message?
MP compliments single fellow MP on her appearance and asks her out shock.
Absurd!
Repeatedly, over a period of 20 years, with no hint of response
Not sure whether that's harassment or stalking but either way it's despicable
In the context of recent allegations receiving some unwanted love letters from a rather delusional older man is not really in the same league
Who claimed it is ?
Clearly those who suspended him
Not unless they were precogs....
I believe that has been suggested as the solution to this whole problem.
It is just a little bit extraordinary to me how many of those who huff and puff about how ridiculous these cases are don't seem to have bothered to have first ascertained the basic facts in question.
MP compliments single fellow MP on her appearance and asks her out shock.
Absurd!
Repeatedly, over a period of 20 years, with no hint of response
Not sure whether that's harassment or stalking but either way it's despicable
In the context of recent allegations receiving some unwanted love letters from a rather delusional older man is not really in the same league
Who claimed it is ?
Clearly those who suspended him
Not unless they were precogs....
I believe that has been suggested as the solution to this whole problem.
It is just a little bit extraordinary to me how many of those who huff and puff about how ridiculous these cases are don't seem to have bothered to have first ascertained the basic facts in question.
I assume you are referring to those who are doing the suspending. Given that some of the highest profile cases have seen people suspended with no indications of why and even they have not been informed and that some of the cases are turning out to be little short of ludicrous this has all the hallmarks of a witchhunt.
MP compliments single fellow MP on her appearance and asks her out shock.
Absurd!
Repeatedly, over a period of 20 years, with no hint of response
Not sure whether that's harassment or stalking but either way it's despicable
In the context of recent allegations receiving some unwanted love letters from a rather delusional older man is not really in the same league
Who claimed it is ?
Clearly those who suspended him
Not unless they were precogs....
I believe that has been suggested as the solution to this whole problem.
It is just a little bit extraordinary to me how many of those who huff and puff about how ridiculous these cases are don't seem to have bothered to have first ascertained the basic facts in question.
I believe that the accusations should be kept confidential in detail and the person accused should be told the full extent of the accusations before anything is put in the public domain.
We have already had a sad and unnecessary death here in North Wales and it should be a warning to all sides on how serious misunderstandings may become a real tragedy
MP compliments single fellow MP on her appearance and asks her out shock.
Absurd!
Repeatedly, over a period of 20 years, with no hint of response
Not sure whether that's harassment or stalking but either way it's despicable
In the context of recent allegations receiving some unwanted love letters from a rather delusional older man is not really in the same league
Who claimed it is ?
Clearly those who suspended him
Not unless they were precogs....
I believe that has been suggested as the solution to this whole problem.
It is just a little bit extraordinary to me how many of those who huff and puff about how ridiculous these cases are don't seem to have bothered to have first ascertained the basic facts in question.
I believe that the accusations should be kept confidential in detail and the person accused should be told the full extent of the accusations before anything is put in the public domain.
We have already had a sad and unnecessary death here in North Wales and it should be a warning to all sides on how serious misunderstandings may become a real tragedy
I agree.
The potent nature of abuse allegations make it important to treat both the complainant and the alleged perpetrator with the same duty of care until such time as guilt is established or not.
I am not in any way saying that any of the current allegations are in any way fraudulent - but careers can be ended now just by allegations on Twitter. In no way does that represent justice for anyone.
We need a radical rethink about the whole issue of anonymity in such cases. I appreciate that naming alleged abusers can encourage others to come forward - but that would surely be stronger if a conviction had already been secured and other victims could see that the justice system can work.
At the moment, things are being said that cannot be unsaid. Mud will stick. For many, very justifiably. For others - completely unfairly.
Some good news for Theresa May. According to Forbes she is the second most powerful woman in the world, behind Angela Merkel but just ahead of Melinda Gates.
MP compliments single fellow MP on her appearance and asks her out shock.
Absurd!
Repeatedly, over a period of 20 years, with no hint of response
Not sure whether that's harassment or stalking but either way it's despicable
In the context of recent allegations receiving some unwanted love letters from a rather delusional older man is not really in the same league
Who claimed it is ?
Clearly those who suspended him
Not unless they were precogs....
I believe that has been suggested as the solution to this whole problem.
It is just a little bit extraordinary to me how many of those who huff and puff about how ridiculous these cases are don't seem to have bothered to have first ascertained the basic facts in question.
I assume you are referring to those who are doing the suspending. Given that some of the highest profile cases have seen people suspended with no indications of why and even they have not been informed and that some of the cases are turning out to be little short of ludicrous this has all the hallmarks of a witchhunt.
No - I was actually referring to the ignorance you displayed just a few posts back.
There is absolutely room to debate the manner of investigations - but in this case the allegations were quite public. Which cases do you have in mind as being "little short of ludicrous" ? (The catastrophically handled Welsh case can hardly be described in that way.)
MP compliments single fellow MP on her appearance and asks her out shock.
Absurd!
Repeatedly, over a period of 20 years, with no hint of response
Not sure whether that's harassment or stalking but either way it's despicable
In the context of recent allegations receiving some unwanted love letters from a rather delusional older man is not really in the same league
Who claimed it is ?
Clearly those who suspended him
Not unless they were precogs....
I believe that has been suggested as the solution to this whole problem.
It is just a little bit extraordinary to me how many of those who huff and puff about how ridiculous these cases are don't seem to have bothered to have first ascertained the basic facts in question.
Er ... I am not quite sure what you are talking about here.
In the case of Carl Sergeant, the whole point is that the “basic facts in question” do not appear to be available to anyone other than Carwyn Jones and a few others.
MP compliments single fellow MP on her appearance and asks her out shock.
Absurd!
Repeatedly, over a period of 20 years, with no hint of response
Not sure whether that's harassment or stalking but either way it's despicable
In the context of recent allegations receiving some unwanted love letters from a rather delusional older man is not really in the same league
Who claimed it is ?
Clearly those who suspended him
Not unless they were precogs....
I believe that has been suggested as the solution to this whole problem.
It is just a little bit extraordinary to me how many of those who huff and puff about how ridiculous these cases are don't seem to have bothered to have first ascertained the basic facts in question.
I believe that the accusations should be kept confidential in detail and the person accused should be told the full extent of the accusations before anything is put in the public domain.
We have already had a sad and unnecessary death here in North Wales and it should be a warning to all sides on how serious misunderstandings may become a real tragedy
In an ideal world that would be true - but it is precisely because, up until the Weinstein affair, accusations kept confidential were frequently ignored, that women have been making them public. It's a mess, and that the HoC has no independent complaints procedure is part of that mess.
I wouldn't seek for a moment to defend how the Welsh case was handled by those in authority - that was unforgivable - but it is not how most of these cases have been handled.
MP compliments single fellow MP on her appearance and asks her out shock.
Absurd!
Repeatedly, over a period of 20 years, with no hint of response
Not sure whether that's harassment or stalking but either way it's despicable
In the context of recent allegations receiving some unwanted love letters from a rather delusional older man is not really in the same league
Who claimed it is ?
Clearly those who suspended him
Not unless they were precogs....
I believe that has been suggested as the solution to this whole problem.
It is just a little bit extraordinary to me how many of those who huff and puff about how ridiculous these cases are don't seem to have bothered to have first ascertained the basic facts in question.
I believe that the accusations should be kept confidential in detail and the person accused should be told the full extent of the accusations before anything is put in the public domain.
We have already had a sad and unnecessary death here in North Wales and it should be a warning to all sides on how serious misunderstandings may become a real tragedy
In an ideal world that would be true - but it is precisely because, up until the Weinstein affair, accusations kept confidential were frequently ignored, that women have been making them public. It's a mess, and that the HoC has no independent complaints procedure is part of that mess.
I wouldn't seek for a moment to defend how the Welsh case was handled by those in authority - that was unforgivable - but it is not how most of these cases have been handled.
In an ideal world that would be true - but it is precisely because, up until the Weinstein affair, accusations kept confidential were frequently ignored, that women have been making them public. It's a mess, and that the HoC has no independent complaints procedure is part of that mess.
I wouldn't seek for a moment to defend how the Welsh case was handled by those in authority - that was unforgivable - but it is not how most of these cases have been handled.
The answer is to create a system whereby complainants feel safe to make allegations as soon after events as possible and that investigations are carried out very swiftly. That way we don't end up with a long list of historical cases needing to be brought into the light.
Twitter or news conferences are not the place to make serious allegations - they should be made to the authorities first. Social media is not the place to report a rape, it really isn't.
Yes there is a lot of frustration at past failings - but now that a worldwide conversation has been started, the focus should be on getting the allegations properly logged and, as far as possible with historical cases, thoroughly investigated. Trial by media doesn't achieve justice. It never has and it never will. And we are perilously close to that now.
MP compliments single fellow MP on her appearance and asks her out shock.
Absurd!
Repeatedly, over a period of 20 years, with no hint of response
Not sure whether that's harassment or stalking but either way it's despicable
In the context of recent allegations receiving some unwanted love letters from a rather delusional older man is not really in the same league
Who claimed it is ?
Clearly those who suspended him
Not unless they were precogs....
I believe that has been suggested as the solution to this whole problem.
It is just a little bit extraordinary to me how many of those who huff and puff about how ridiculous these cases are don't seem to have bothered to have first ascertained the basic facts in question.
I believe that the accusations should be kept confidential in detail and the person accused should be told the full extent of the accusations before anything is put in the public domain.
We have already had a sad and unnecessary death here in North Wales and it should be a warning to all sides on how serious misunderstandings may become a real tragedy
In an ideal world that would be true - but it is precisely because, up until the Weinstein affair, accusations kept confidential were frequently ignored, that women have been making them public. It's a mess, and that the HoC has no independent complaints procedure is part of that mess.
I wouldn't seek for a moment to defend how the Welsh case was handled by those in authority - that was unforgivable - but it is not how most of these cases have been handled.
The only point at which I agree is that the HoC should of course have an independent Ombudsman to investigate these matters.
To equate the Weinstein affair -- truly industrial scale sexual harassment, assault and allegedly criminal activity over a period of 20 years while collaborators and cronies stayed silent -- with anything we have so far heard from the HoC seems to betray a complete lack of proportion.
And finally, I’d say the publication of those cards by Kerry McCarthy seems to me to be an act of poisonous cruelty that far outweighs anything Kelvin is alleged to have done.
MP compliments single fellow MP on her appearance and asks her out shock.
Absurd!
Repeatedly, over a period of 20 years, with no hint of response
Not sure whether that's harassment or stalking but either way it's despicable
In the context of recent allegations receiving some unwanted love letters from a rather delusional older man is not really in the same league
Who claimed it is ?
Clearly those who suspended him
Not unless they were precogs....
I believe that has been suggested as the solution to this whole problem.
It is just a little bit extraordinary to me how many of those who huff and puff about how ridiculous these cases are don't seem to have bothered to have first ascertained the basic facts in question.
I believe that the accusations should be kept confidential in detail and the person accused should be told the full extent of the accusations before anything is put in the public domain.
We have already had a sad and unnecessary death here in North Wales and it should be a warning to all sides on how serious misunderstandings may become a real tragedy
In an ideal world that would be true - but it is precisely because, up until the Weinstein affair, accusations kept confidential were frequently ignored, that women have been making them public. It's a mess, and that the HoC has no independent complaints procedure is part of that mess.
I wouldn't seek for a moment to defend how the Welsh case was handled by those in authority - that was unforgivable - but it is not how most of these cases have been handled.
Charlie Elphicke is still in tbe dark
Yes - and that is another case very badly (though nowhere near as egregiously) handled.
MP compliments single fellow MP on her appearance and asks her out shock.
Absurd!
Repeatedly, over a period of 20 years, with no hint of response
Not sure whether that's harassment or stalking but either way it's despicable
In the context of recent allegations receiving some unwanted love letters from a rather delusional older man is not really in the same league
Who claimed it is ?
Clearly those who suspended him
Not unless they were precogs....
I believe that has been suggested as the solution to this whole problem.
It is just a little bit extraordinary to me how many of those who huff and puff about how ridiculous these cases are don't seem to have bothered to have first ascertained the basic facts in question.
I believe that the accusations should be kept confidential in detail and the person accused should be told the full extent of the accusations before anything is put in the public domain.
We have already had a sad and unnecessary death here in North Wales and it should be a warning to all sides on how serious misunderstandings may become a real tragedy
In an ideal world that would be true - but it is precisely because, up until the Weinstein affair, accusations kept confidential were frequently ignored, that women have been making them public. It's a mess, and that the HoC has no independent complaints procedure is part of that mess.
I wouldn't seek for a moment to defend how the Welsh case was handled by those in authority - that was unforgivable - but it is not how most of these cases have been handled.
The only point at which I agree is that the HoC should of course have an independent Ombudsman to investigate these matters.
To equate the Weinstein affair -- truly industrial scale sexual harassment, assault and allegedly criminal activity over a period of 20 years while collaborators and cronies stayed silent -- with anything we have so far heard from the HoC seems to betray a complete lack of proportion.
MP compliments single fellow MP on her appearance and asks her out shock.
Absurd!
Repeatedly, over a period of 20 years, with no hint of response
Not sure whether that's harassment or stalking but either way it's despicable
In the context of recent allegations receiving some unwanted love letters from a rather delusional older man is not really in the same league
Who claimed it is ?
Clearly those who suspended him
Not unless they were precogs....
I believe that has been suggested as the solution to this whole problem.
It is just a little bit extraordinary to me how many of those who huff and puff about how ridiculous these cases are don't seem to have bothered to have first ascertained the basic facts in question.
I believe that the accusations should be kept confidential in detail and the person accused should be told the full extent of the accusations before anything is put in the public domain.
We have already had a sad and unnecessary death here in North Wales and it should be a warning to all sides on how serious misunderstandings may become a real tragedy
In an ideal world that would be true - but it is precisely because, up until the Weinstein affair, accusations kept confidential were frequently ignored, that women have been making them public. It's a mess, and that the HoC has no independent complaints procedure is part of that mess.
I wouldn't seek for a moment to defend how the Welsh case was handled by those in authority - that was unforgivable - but it is not how most of these cases have been handled.
The only point at which I agree is that the HoC should of course have an independent Ombudsman to investigate these matters.
To equate the Weinstein affair -- truly industrial scale sexual harassment, assault and allegedly criminal activity over a period of 20 years while collaborators and cronies stayed silent -- with anything we have so far heard from the HoC seems to betray a complete lack of proportion.
That is not what I said.
You made a direct comparison with the Weinstein case to justify actions taken against MPs.
And finally, I’d say the publication of those cards by Kerry McCarthy seems to me to be an act of poisonous cruelty that far outweighs anything Kelvin is alleged to have done.
Kelvin comes across as misguided and sad.
But I’d rather be misguided and sad, than cruel.
Yeah. Women should just have to put up with lecherous old goats in the workplace.
MP compliments single fellow MP on her appearance and asks her out shock.
Absurd!
Repeatedly, over a period of 20 years, with no hint of response
Not sure whether that's harassment or stalking but either way it's despicable
In the context of recent allegations receiving some unwanted love letters from a rather delusional older man is not really in the same league
Who claimed it is ?
Clearly those who suspended him
Not unless they were precogs....
I believe that has been suggested as the solution to this whole problem.
It is just a little bit extraordinary to me how many of those who huff and puff about how ridiculous these cases are don't seem to have bothered to have first ascertained the basic facts in question.
I believe that the accusations should be kept confidential in detail and the person accused should be told the full extent of the accusations before anything is put in the public domain.
We have already had a sad and unnecessary death here in North Wales and it should be a warning to all sides on how serious misunderstandings may become a real tragedy
In an ideal world that would be true - but it is precisely because, up until the Weinstein affair, accusations kept confidential were frequently ignored, that women have been making them public. It's a mess, and that the HoC has no independent complaints procedure is part of that mess.
I wouldn't seek for a moment to defend how the Welsh case was handled by those in authority - that was unforgivable - but it is not how most of these cases have been handled.
The only point at which I agree is that the HoC should of course have an independent Ombudsman to investigate these matters.
To equate the Weinstein affair -- truly industrial scale sexual harassment, assault and allegedly criminal activity over a period of 20 years while collaborators and cronies stayed silent -- with anything we have so far heard from the HoC seems to betray a complete lack of proportion.
That is not what I said.
You made a direct comparison with the Weinstein case to justify actions taken against MPs.
And finally, I’d say the publication of those cards by Kerry McCarthy seems to me to be an act of poisonous cruelty that far outweighs anything Kelvin is alleged to have done.
Kelvin comes across as misguided and sad.
But I’d rather be misguided and sad, than cruel.
Yeah. Women should just have to put up with lecherous old goats in the workplace.
There was no need for Kerry to make the cards public.
She could have requested Kelvin to stop as the cards were making her uncomfortable. Did she?
In an ideal world that would be true - but it is precisely because, up until the Weinstein affair, accusations kept confidential were frequently ignored, that women have been making them public. It's a mess, and that the HoC has no independent complaints procedure is part of that mess.
I wouldn't seek for a moment to defend how the Welsh case was handled by those in authority - that was unforgivable - but it is not how most of these cases have been handled.
The answer is to create a system whereby complainants feel safe to make allegations as soon after events as possible and that investigations are carried out very swiftly. That way we don't end up with a long list of historical cases needing to be brought into the light.
Twitter or news conferences are not the place to make serious allegations - they should be made to the authorities first. Social media is not the place to report a rape, it really isn't.
Yes there is a lot of frustration at past failings - but now that a worldwide conversation has been started, the focus should be on getting the allegations properly logged and, as far as possible with historical cases, thoroughly investigated. Trial by media doesn't achieve justice. It never has and it never will. And we are perilously close to that now.
I don't really disagree with any of that - but we don't yet have such a system (and indeed Cameron's efforts to institute one for Parliament only a few years back were rebuffed by his own party and by Labour). As I said below, it's a mess, but I don't think it fair to blame women, whose complaints up until now were ignored, for speaking out. Or to dismiss them as largely ridiculous.
Some good news for Theresa May. According to Forbes she is the second most powerful woman in the world, behind Angela Merkel but just ahead of Melinda Gates.
Some good news for Theresa May. According to Forbes she is the second most powerful woman in the world, behind Angela Merkel but just ahead of Melinda Gates.
Some good news for Theresa May. According to Forbes she is the second most powerful woman in the world, behind Angela Merkel but just ahead of Melinda Gates.
“... but it is precisely because, up until the Weinstein affair, accusations kept confidential were frequently ignored, that women have been making them public ...”
What is the relevance of the Weinstein affair then in the above statement?
I am of the opinion that MPs have not emerged for this any differently than 650 professors or middle managers or lawyers.
The only accusation that seems to me to warrant comparison with Weinstein is the Bex Bailey affair, where indeed we have heard an allegation of rape and then the allegation of a cover-up.
Largely, there seems to me be an undercurrent of the settling of political scores in what has happened (in both the Tory and Labour parties)
That is partly why I am so suspicious of the Carl Sergeant affair.
His past remarks about improving popularity of the women's game by having the players wear tighter shorts will probably not aid perceptions of his protestations of innocence. Being, allegedly, massively corrupt probably doesn't help either.
Some good news for Theresa May. According to Forbes she is the second most powerful woman in the world, behind Angela Merkel but just ahead of Melinda Gates.
@YBarddCwsc, I really don't see how you understood my comment as "a direct comparison", but to be clear, it was not.
The Weinstein affair represents watershed because the nature of his alleged offences was so extreme, they were so numerous, and one or more of them was known of by so many people. It was thus a graphic illustration of how sexual harassment or worse is covered up or dismissed. That the example of his alleged victims speaking out should encourage others to do the same does not mean that everyone speaking out is has a grievance of equal measure - indeed the very wide range of subsequent allegations, from rape to an unwelcome hand on the knee, has been widely debated here. Every case is different; some are crimes; some do not rise to that level, and of those so,e a more serious, some less so.
And finally, I’d say the publication of those cards by Kerry McCarthy seems to me to be an act of poisonous cruelty that far outweighs anything Kelvin is alleged to have done.
Kelvin comes across as misguided and sad.
But I’d rather be misguided and sad, than cruel.
Yeah. Women should just have to put up with lecherous old goats in the workplace.
There was no need for Kerry to make the cards public.
She could have requested Kelvin to stop as the cards were making her uncomfortable. Did she?
She made them public to corroborate the complaint by the young Labour activist.
And finally, I’d say the publication of those cards by Kerry McCarthy seems to me to be an act of poisonous cruelty that far outweighs anything Kelvin is alleged to have done.
Kelvin comes across as misguided and sad.
But I’d rather be misguided and sad, than cruel.
Yeah. Women should just have to put up with lecherous old goats in the workplace.
There was no need for Kerry to make the cards public.
She could have requested Kelvin to stop as the cards were making her uncomfortable. Did she?
She made them public to corroborate the complaint by the young Labour activist.
But she could have still done that without making anything public. I am sure the investigation would have still considered them if they hadn't been published in the press.
Some good news for Theresa May. According to Forbes she is the second most powerful woman in the world, behind Angela Merkel but just ahead of Melinda Gates.
And finally, I’d say the publication of those cards by Kerry McCarthy seems to me to be an act of poisonous cruelty that far outweighs anything Kelvin is alleged to have done.
Kelvin comes across as misguided and sad.
But I’d rather be misguided and sad, than cruel.
Yeah. Women should just have to put up with lecherous old goats in the workplace.
There was no need for Kerry to make the cards public.
She could have requested Kelvin to stop as the cards were making her uncomfortable. Did she?
She made them public to corroborate the complaint by the young Labour activist.
But she could have still done that without making anything public. I am sure the investigation would have still considered them if they hadn't been published in the press.
There are people objecting that the accusations against Sargeant were not made public, who bear a striking resemblance to those complaining that these accusations were made public.
@YBarddCwsc, I really don't see how you understood my comment as "a direct comparison", but to be clear, it was not.
The Weinstein affair represents watershed because the nature of his alleged offences was so extreme, they were so numerous, and one or more of them was known of by so many people. It was thus a graphic illustration of how sexual harassment or worse is covered up or dismissed. That the example of his alleged victims speaking out should encourage others to do the same does not mean that everyone speaking out is has a grievance of equal measure - indeed the very wide range of subsequent allegations, from rape to an unwelcome hand on the knee, has been widely debated here. Every case is different; some are crimes; some do not rise to that level, and of those so,e a more serious, some less so.
I hope that makes my comment more clear for you.
A man killed himself. He leaves behind two children and a wife.
He is the only victim of this business. Everyones lives to talk and laugh another day.
He died without knowing who had accused him, and of what he had been accused. He died without being given an opportunity to clear his name.
He died because of a witch hunt. There were so many people with lighted logs ready for the burning.
The witch hunt has been fanned by the media (probably to distract attention from the Weinsteins in their midst) and the politicians themselves (who are fighting Brexit by proxy).
If you are interested in Weinsteins, go look for them in the entertainment and modelling businesses which have long treated pretty young boys and girls as easy meat.
Or, to give another uncomfortable parallel, go look for them among the working-class girls in northern towns whose systematic abuse and rape were covered up by councils and the police for years.
MP compliments single fellow MP on her appearance and asks her out shock.
Absurd!
Repeatedly, over a period of 20 years, with no hint of response
Not sure whether that's harassment or stalking but either way it's despicable
In the context of recent allegations receiving some unwanted love letters from a rather delusional older man is not really in the same league
Who claimed it is ?
Clearly those who suspended him
Not unless they were precogs....
I believe that has been suggested as the solution to this whole problem.
It is just a little bit extraordinary to me how many of those who huff and puff about how ridiculous these cases are don't seem to have bothered to have first ascertained the basic facts in question.
I believe that the accusations should be kept confidential in detail and the person accused should be told the full extent of the accusations before anything is put in the public domain.
We have already had a sad and unnecessary death here in North Wales and it should be a warning to all sides on how serious misunderstandings may become a real tragedy
In an ideal world that would be true - but it is precisely because, up until the Weinstein affair, accusations kept confidential were frequently ignored, that women have been making them public. It's a mess, and that the HoC has no independent complaints procedure is part of that mess.
I wouldn't seek for a moment to defend how the Welsh case was handled by those in authority - that was unforgivable - but it is not how most of these cases have been handled.
And finally, I’d say the publication of those cards by Kerry McCarthy seems to me to be an act of poisonous cruelty that far outweighs anything Kelvin is alleged to have done.
Kelvin comes across as misguided and sad.
But I’d rather be misguided and sad, than cruel.
Yeah. Women should just have to put up with lecherous old goats in the workplace.
There was no need for Kerry to make the cards public.
She could have requested Kelvin to stop as the cards were making her uncomfortable. Did she?
She made them public to corroborate the complaint by the young Labour activist.
How exactly do cards inviting Kerry out for lunch sometime corroborate an allegation of sexual assault?
Some good news for Theresa May. According to Forbes she is the second most powerful woman in the world, behind Angela Merkel but just ahead of Melinda Gates.
Some good news for Theresa May. According to Forbes she is the second most powerful woman in the world, behind Angela Merkel but just ahead of Melinda Gates.
The Middle East conspiracy stories I'm reading don't seem all that far fetched...
The Saudis want a war with Iran to distract from an imploding monarchist/dictatorial government after losing out so badly to Iran in Iraq and Syria after their sponsored underlings, the IS, were sent packing.
Telegraph says Dildo Hammond is having a “green budget” and set to hammer those with diesel cars who were encouraged to buy them by previous so called “green” budgets.
“A number of options are under consideration, including changes to vehicle excise duty which could hit drivers who already own diesel cars instead of those who buy new models, campaigners have been told.“
God he’s useless. Stick stick stick and no carrot.
Some good news for Theresa May. According to Forbes she is the second most powerful woman in the world, behind Angela Merkel but just ahead of Melinda Gates.
Is that enough please keep her in place until GE 2022
I sincerely hope TM is PM or LotCP until the next GE
On today's Yougov poll she still leads Corbyn as preferred PM despite everything
Callaghan led Thatcher by a wide margin. Don't PM's always lead ? After all, they are in No.10 with all its advantages.
Had Callaghan called an election in 1978 Labour might well have been the largest party.
PM's don't always lead no, Cameron led Brown, Blair led Major etc.
The point I was making and from which you, as usual, ducked was that Labour in 1979 was well behind the Tories and , yet, Callaghan led Thatcher comfortably.
Telegraph says Dildo Hammond is having a “green budget” and set to hammer those with diesel cars who were encouraged to buy them by previous so called “green” budgets.
“A number of options are under consideration, including changes to vehicle excise duty which could hit drivers who already own diesel cars instead of those who buy new models, campaigners have been told.“
God he’s useless. Stick stick stick and no carrot.
Just in time I have moved away from my diesel to a plug-in. So smooth and so eerily quiet.
Some good news for Theresa May. According to Forbes she is the second most powerful woman in the world, behind Angela Merkel but just ahead of Melinda Gates.
Is that enough please keep her in place until GE 2022
I sincerely hope TM is PM or LotCP until the next GE
On today's Yougov poll she still leads Corbyn as preferred PM despite everything
Callaghan led Thatcher by a wide margin. Don't PM's always lead ? After all, they are in No.10 with all its advantages.
Had Callaghan called an election in 1978 Labour might well have been the largest party.
PM's don't always lead no, Cameron led Brown, Blair led Major etc.
The point I was making and from which you, as usual, ducked was that Labour in 1979 was well behind the Tories and , yet, Callaghan led Thatcher comfortably.
The Tories in 1979 also won by 7%, Labour is today ahead by 3%.
Plus of course Callaghan still did better against Thatcher than either Foot or Kinnock did so replacing him would not have made any difference for Labour just as replacing May is unlikely to make much difference for the Tories.
And finally, I’d say the publication of those cards by Kerry McCarthy seems to me to be an act of poisonous cruelty that far outweighs anything Kelvin is alleged to have done.
Kelvin comes across as misguided and sad.
But I’d rather be misguided and sad, than cruel.
Yeah. Women should just have to put up with lecherous old goats in the workplace.
There was no need for Kerry to make the cards public.
She could have requested Kelvin to stop as the cards were making her uncomfortable. Did she?
She made them public to corroborate the complaint by the young Labour activist.
How exactly do cards inviting Kerry out for lunch sometime corroborate an allegation of sexual assault?
And finally, I’d say the publication of those cards by Kerry McCarthy seems to me to be an act of poisonous cruelty that far outweighs anything Kelvin is alleged to have done.
Kelvin comes across as misguided and sad.
But I’d rather be misguided and sad, than cruel.
Yeah. Women should just have to put up with lecherous old goats in the workplace.
There was no need for Kerry to make the cards public.
She could have requested Kelvin to stop as the cards were making her uncomfortable. Did she?
She made them public to corroborate the complaint by the young Labour activist.
How exactly do cards inviting Kerry out for lunch sometime corroborate an allegation of sexual assault?
They help substantiate the behaviour.
Kelvin’s obviously a sex maniac.
It is good to know that nothing escapes the eye of the WitchFinder General.
Telegraph says Dildo Hammond is having a “green budget” and set to hammer those with diesel cars who were encouraged to buy them by previous so called “green” budgets.
“A number of options are under consideration, including changes to vehicle excise duty which could hit drivers who already own diesel cars instead of those who buy new models, campaigners have been told.“
God he’s useless. Stick stick stick and no carrot.
The British had a serious debt problem, then their voters decided to flounce out of the trade agreement that underpinned their entire economy. They can't afford carrots.
When the result of the referendum on membership in the EU was announced in the UK, many commentators immediately announced that it had been delivered by the ‘left-behind’ white working class. The equivalent constituency in the US was subsequently argued to have secured Trump the presidency. Yet in both places it has been demonstrated that the white working class vote was less significant than that of the white middle class.
And finally, I’d say the publication of those cards by Kerry McCarthy seems to me to be an act of poisonous cruelty that far outweighs anything Kelvin is alleged to have done.
Kelvin comes across as misguided and sad.
But I’d rather be misguided and sad, than cruel.
Yeah. Women should just have to put up with lecherous old goats in the workplace.
There was no need for Kerry to make the cards public.
She could have requested Kelvin to stop as the cards were making her uncomfortable. Did she?
She made them public to corroborate the complaint by the young Labour activist.
And finally, I’d say the publication of those cards by Kerry McCarthy seems to me to be an act of poisonous cruelty that far outweighs anything Kelvin is alleged to have done.
Kelvin comes across as misguided and sad.
But I’d rather be misguided and sad, than cruel.
Yeah. Women should just have to put up with lecherous old goats in the workplace.
There was no need for Kerry to make the cards public.
She could have requested Kelvin to stop as the cards were making her uncomfortable. Did she?
She made them public to corroborate the complaint by the young Labour activist.
But she could have still done that without making anything public. I am sure the investigation would have still considered them if they hadn't been published in the press.
There are people objecting that the accusations against Sargeant were not made public, who bear a striking resemblance to those complaining that these accusations were made public.
I think the problem was the allegations were not made clear to him - similar to the Elphicke case. Surely it is a fundamental right to be told of what one is accused.
And finally, I’d say the publication of those cards by Kerry McCarthy seems to me to be an act of poisonous cruelty that far outweighs anything Kelvin is alleged to have done.
Kelvin comes across as misguided and sad.
But I’d rather be misguided and sad, than cruel.
Yeah. Women should just have to put up with lecherous old goats in the workplace.
There was no need for Kerry to make the cards public.
She could have requested Kelvin to stop as the cards were making her uncomfortable. Did she?
She made them public to corroborate the complaint by the young Labour activist.
How exactly do cards inviting Kerry out for lunch sometime corroborate an allegation of sexual assault?
Comments
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2017/11/10/saudi_arabia_accused_of_detaining_prime_minister_of_lebanon_as_fears_of.html
The Middle East conspiracy stories I'm reading don't seem all that far fetched...
1 The UK no longer having to make any payments to the EU
2 The UK being able to negotiate its own FTAs with countries outside Europe
3 The UK no longer being subject to ECJ judgements
4 The UK being able to pick and choose which EU citizens can come to live and work in the UK rather than their having an automatic right to do so
5 Keeping the City of London as Europe's biggest and most important financial centre
Top 5 priorities of Remain voters in order from the Brexit negotiations
1 Making sure the UK and EU having similar rules on financial services, so UK firms can easily do business in EU countries
2 Ensuring UK and EU countries have common rules and safety standards on things like consumer goods
3 Ensuring the UK and EU have a common approach to workers' rights
4 Ensuring EU citizens already in the UK can remain here permanently
5 Ensuring UK citizens already in other EU countries can live there permanently
https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2017/11/lord-ashcroft-voters-are-losing-confidence-that-a-good-brexit-deal-will-be-secured-for-britain.html
https://twitter.com/sam_lister_/status/929038689979850752
Absurd!
Not sure whether that's harassment or stalking but either way it's despicable
Did she tell him it was unwanted?
Bit of a pest, no ?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11/02/labour/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_tw
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/nov/10/michael-flynn-trump-turkish-dissident-cleric-plot
We have already had a sad and unnecessary death here in North Wales and it should be a warning to all sides on how serious misunderstandings may become a real tragedy
The potent nature of abuse allegations make it important to treat both the complainant and the alleged perpetrator with the same duty of care until such time as guilt is established or not.
I am not in any way saying that any of the current allegations are in any way fraudulent - but careers can be ended now just by allegations on Twitter. In no way does that represent justice for anyone.
We need a radical rethink about the whole issue of anonymity in such cases. I appreciate that naming alleged abusers can encourage others to come forward - but that would surely be stronger if a conviction had already been secured and other victims could see that the justice system can work.
At the moment, things are being said that cannot be unsaid. Mud will stick. For many, very justifiably. For others - completely unfairly.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/photos/meet-the-9-women-who-have-the-most-money-influence-and-power-in-the-world-right-now/ss-AAuwIyB?ocid=spartanntp
There is absolutely room to debate the manner of investigations - but in this case the allegations were quite public.
Which cases do you have in mind as being "little short of ludicrous" ?
(The catastrophically handled Welsh case can hardly be described in that way.)
In the case of Carl Sergeant, the whole point is that the “basic facts in question” do not appear to be available to anyone other than Carwyn Jones and a few others.
Just one question - isn't he err married though ?
I wouldn't seek for a moment to defend how the Welsh case was handled by those in authority - that was unforgivable - but it is not how most of these cases have been handled.
Surely Mrs Pulpstar permits Pulpstar to go out to lunch with females -- even if they are “attractive, intelligent and charming”.
Twitter or news conferences are not the place to make serious allegations - they should be made to the authorities first. Social media is not the place to report a rape, it really isn't.
Yes there is a lot of frustration at past failings - but now that a worldwide conversation has been started, the focus should be on getting the allegations properly logged and, as far as possible with historical cases, thoroughly investigated. Trial by media doesn't achieve justice. It never has and it never will. And we are perilously close to that now.
To equate the Weinstein affair -- truly industrial scale sexual harassment, assault and allegedly criminal activity over a period of 20 years while collaborators and cronies stayed silent -- with anything we have so far heard from the HoC seems to betray a complete lack of proportion.
Kelvin comes across as misguided and sad.
But I’d rather be misguided and sad, than cruel.
She could have requested Kelvin to stop as the cards were making her uncomfortable. Did she?
As I said below, it's a mess, but I don't think it fair to blame women, whose complaints up until now were ignored, for speaking out. Or to dismiss them as largely ridiculous.
Powerful, strong, stable wonderful
Hope Solo says the former FIFA president grabbed her backside, but a spokesman for Blatter says the claim is "ridiculous"."
https://news.sky.com/story/us-football-star-hope-solo-accuses-sepp-blatter-of-sexual-assault-11121706
“... but it is precisely because, up until the Weinstein affair, accusations kept confidential were frequently ignored, that women have been making them public ...”
What is the relevance of the Weinstein affair then in the above statement?
I am of the opinion that MPs have not emerged for this any differently than 650 professors or middle managers or lawyers.
The only accusation that seems to me to warrant comparison with Weinstein is the Bex Bailey affair, where indeed we have heard an allegation of rape and then the allegation of a cover-up.
Largely, there seems to me be an undercurrent of the settling of political scores in what has happened (in both the Tory and Labour parties)
That is partly why I am so suspicious of the Carl Sergeant affair.
I really don't see how you understood my comment as "a direct comparison", but to be clear, it was not.
The Weinstein affair represents watershed because the nature of his alleged offences was so extreme, they were so numerous, and one or more of them was known of by so many people. It was thus a graphic illustration of how sexual harassment or worse is covered up or dismissed.
That the example of his alleged victims speaking out should encourage others to do the same does not mean that everyone speaking out is has a grievance of equal measure - indeed the very wide range of subsequent allegations, from rape to an unwelcome hand on the knee, has been widely debated here.
Every case is different; some are crimes; some do not rise to that level, and of those so,e a more serious, some less so.
I hope that makes my comment more clear for you.
He is the only victim of this business. Everyones lives to talk and laugh another day.
He died without knowing who had accused him, and of what he had been accused. He died without being given an opportunity to clear his name.
He died because of a witch hunt. There were so many people with lighted logs ready for the burning.
The witch hunt has been fanned by the media (probably to distract attention from the Weinsteins in their midst) and the politicians themselves (who are fighting Brexit by proxy).
If you are interested in Weinsteins, go look for them in the entertainment and modelling businesses which have long treated pretty young boys and girls as easy meat.
Or, to give another uncomfortable parallel, go look for them among the working-class girls in northern towns whose systematic abuse and rape were covered up by councils and the police for years.
PM's don't always lead no, Cameron led Brown, Blair led Major etc.
“A number of options are under consideration, including changes to vehicle excise duty which could hit drivers who already own diesel cars instead of those who buy new models, campaigners have been told.“
God he’s useless. Stick stick stick and no carrot.
Plus of course Callaghan still did better against Thatcher than either Foot or Kinnock did so replacing him would not have made any difference for Labour just as replacing May is unlikely to make much difference for the Tories.
It is good to know that nothing escapes the eye of the WitchFinder General.
When the result of the referendum on membership in the EU was announced in the UK, many commentators immediately announced that it had been delivered by the ‘left-behind’ white working class. The equivalent constituency in the US was subsequently argued to have secured Trump the presidency. Yet in both places it has been demonstrated that the white working class vote was less significant than that of the white middle class.
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2017/11/10/why-are-the-white-working-classes-still-being-held-responsible-for-brexit-and-trump/