Mrs May is a disgrace, she should have fired Priti Patel.
Stupid dumb Librarian.
Drag someone half way around the world under a media storm to resign them? Daft. If you're sacking them have the cajones to sack them.
It makes very little difference. The end result is the same.
I think a difference in media portrayal. One is easily portrayed as decisive. The other seems duplicitous.
Perhaps you think Carwyn Jones was decisive?
He is under pressure to resign tonight over the way he dealt with Carl Sargeant
He won't resign....he is man enough to admit he got it wrong and publically apologise...which will be accepted by all but his bitterest enemies. He will probably come out of this stronger than when he went in...unfortunately
It was not looking that way on the Welsh news tonight. The family, his constituents, and the opposition are all having a go at Carwyn Jones who has called a meeting with the Welsh Labour Group tomorrow after which he will make a statement. The reporter suggested he could resign
It has been suggested that he was coming towards the end for a while. He has after all had eight years in office.
My immediate thought however is that there is literally nobody capable of replacing him. It is not quite out of the question we could be heading for new elections in Wales.
Stop! Tell the Welsh to hold of on anything until next week. We are overdosing on news and developments and I can't get the popcorn into my mouth any faster.
There is a world shortage of popcorn as scandal after scandal engulfs the developed world.
Suppliers of popcorn to the cinematic industry, Mr B N Grey, appealed for restraint and rationing to be introduced.
'We simply can't keep up with demand,' he told a press conference. 'When Weinstein was caught it was all a bit funny, but now we're running double shifts and we still can't bang those grains nearly as fast as it turns out powerful sleazebags have been banging other things. If we don't have rationing, we might run out before the Episode VIII premier and I won't know where to put my face.'
However, Jeremy Corbyn, about the only powerful man not implicated so far, said this was a bad idea. At least, he said something while spraying popcorn everywhere, pointing and laughing as Boris Johnson made another mindless clusterfuck live on TV.
Maybe it means May is still working out the details on a big reshuffle?
One can dream....
I get why she didn't after Fallon (and of course more in that whole area may still be coming), and why her position is so precarious that she cannot do it, but you rarely got the opportunity twice so it would be a shame. But having declined to do so when Fallon resigned, implicitly saying everyone in post is doing a good/ok job, what pretext just because Patel is gone?
Mrs May is a disgrace, she should have fired Priti Patel.
Stupid dumb Librarian.
Drag someone half way around the world under a media storm to resign them? Daft. If you're sacking them have the cajones to sack them.
It makes very little difference. The end result is the same.
I think a difference in media portrayal. One is easily portrayed as decisive. The other seems duplicitous.
Perhaps you think Carwyn Jones was decisive?
He is under pressure to resign tonight over the way he dealt with Carl Sargeant
He won't resign....he is man enough to admit he got it wrong and publically apologise...which will be accepted by all but his bitterest enemies. He will probably come out of this stronger than when he went in...unfortunately
It was not looking that way on the Welsh news tonight. The family, his constituents, and the opposition are all having a go at Carwyn Jones who has called a meeting with the Welsh Labour Group tomorrow after which he will make a statement. The reporter suggested he could resign
It has been suggested that he was coming towards the end for a while. He has after all had eight years in office.
My immediate thought however is that there is literally nobody capable of replacing him. It is not quite out of the question we could be heading for new elections in Wales.
The report tonight did say that the Welsh Labour Party had been actively undermining Carl Sargeant for some years so it seems there may be more to come out on this very sad situation.
And yes new elections may well come along due to the make up of the Assembly
Welsh Labour, Jones apart, are totally useless. People think Boris Johnson as Foreign Secretary is a joke? Alun Davies is a stupider version of BoJo with no sense of humour. Yet he may be in the frame as Labour leader. Because the alternatives are even more useless.
The one way I can see out of this mess - and it would be hilarious - is if Dafydd Elis Thomas became FM with a brief to calm things down for twelve months. He may suddenly have become value.
Mrs May is a disgrace, she should have fired Priti Patel.
Stupid dumb Librarian.
Drag someone half way around the world under a media storm to resign them? Daft. If you're sacking them have the cajones to sack them.
It makes very little difference. The end result is the same.
I think a difference in media portrayal. One is easily portrayed as decisive. The other seems duplicitous.
Most people will see it as one and the same.
Normally I’d agree - but I think the flight thing gives it a ridiculous angle. Remember when Blair had someone fly back from Aus for a crucial vote? It gives the story a bit of juice... that’s my theory anyway.
If someone resigns, they're admitting they were at fault. If they're sacked, they can always deny fault.
Mrs May is a disgrace, she should have fired Priti Patel.
Stupid dumb Librarian.
Drag someone half way around the world under a media storm to resign them? Daft. If you're sacking them have the cajones to sack them.
It makes very little difference. The end result is the same.
The site seems at its most politically partisan tonight.
Predictable really
It's a big night for politics. Two cabinet ministers gone.
Appreciate you might want to discuss the weather.
Just one tonight.
What were you hoping for? A full-on handbag fight between May and Patel with hair-pulling and screaming spilling out the door of No.10 onto Downing Street?
'Resigning' her was in my opinion a smart move on the part of Theresa May. Little chance now of her becoming the Brexit martyr.
Sadly, Priti Patel always struck me as a tool. Her career outside of politics was confined to stints in PR, frequently lobbying for alcohol and tobacco companies, and built upon upon her links with the conservative party.
Given that she has very little experience of actual work, ie of the kind that ordinary people do to earn a living and not £300 per hour lobbying, and no academic credentials, it was quite surprising that she wrote a book peddling the idea that British workers are lazy.
It is no suprise at all that she got too close too Israeli lobbyists, to the point where she ruined her ministerial career.
Basically, I hold her in the same regard as Laura Pidcock. She is a windbag. A ranter. Someone who has no clue how to get us out of the mess we are in.
Could we see some examples of "actual work, ie of the kind that ordinary people do to earn a living and not £300 per hour lobbying", please, so that we can understand your point better?
So, after all day where people have been demanding Patel leave the Government, people have now switched their attacks to how she left the Government, and why Boris is still there too.
Ok.
Yes, because it could have been done in a way which was about 1.2% more humiliating for her. Every little helps.
Mrs May is a disgrace, she should have fired Priti Patel.
Stupid dumb Librarian.
Drag someone half way around the world under a media storm to resign them? Daft. If you're sacking them have the cajones to sack them.
It makes very little difference. The end result is the same.
I think a difference in media portrayal. One is easily portrayed as decisive. The other seems duplicitous.
Perhaps you think Carwyn Jones was decisive?
He is under pressure to resign tonight over the way he dealt with Carl Sargeant
He won't resign....he is man enough to admit he got it wrong and publically apologise...which will be accepted by all but his bitterest enemies. He will probably come out of this stronger than when he went in...unfortunately
It does seem odd that the twittermob is after Jones to resign without investigation as punishment for sacking without investigation.
You don't expect the great British public to learn proper lessons do you? That's not our style.
Mrs May is a disgrace, she should have fired Priti Patel.
Stupid dumb Librarian.
Drag someone half way around the world under a media storm to resign them? Daft. If you're sacking them have the cajones to sack them.
It makes very little difference. The end result is the same.
The site seems at its most politically partisan tonight.
Predictable really
It's a big night for politics. Two cabinet ministers gone.
Appreciate you might want to discuss the weather.
Just one tonight.
What were you hoping for? A full-on handbag fight between May and Patel with hair-pulling and screaming spilling out the door of No.10 onto Downing Street?
Off topic: tales from one of the UK's new small business owners . Me. ... Never mind visions and fancy apps. I'd vote for a bit of boring competence, frankly, in most walks of life.
I quite agree. The number of businesses lacking basic skills is quite worrying. Even something as simple as someone phoning you when they said they would phone seems to be rare.
Mrs May is a disgrace, she should have fired Priti Patel.
Stupid dumb Librarian.
Drag someone half way around the world under a media storm to resign them? Daft. If you're sacking them have the cajones to sack them.
It makes very little difference. The end result is the same.
The site seems at its most politically partisan tonight.
Predictable really
It's a big night for politics. Two cabinet ministers gone.
Appreciate you might want to discuss the weather.
Just one tonight.
What were you hoping for? A full-on handbag fight between May and Patel with hair-pulling and screaming spilling out the door of No.10 onto Downing Street?
'Resigning' her was in my opinion a smart move on the part of Theresa May. Little chance now of her becoming the Brexit martyr.
Sadly, Priti Patel always struck me as a tool. Her career outside of politics was confined to stints in PR, frequently lobbying for alcohol and tobacco companies, and built upon upon her links with the conservative party.
Given that she has very little experience of actual work, ie of the kind that ordinary people do to earn a living and not £300 per hour lobbying, and no academic credentials, it was quite surprising that she wrote a book peddling the idea that British workers are lazy.
It is no suprise at all that she got too close too Israeli lobbyists, to the point where she ruined her ministerial career.
Basically, I hold her in the same regard as Laura Pidcock. She is a windbag. A ranter. Someone who has no clue how to get us out of the mess we are in.
'Resigning' her was in my opinion a smart move on the part of Theresa May. Little chance now of her becoming the Brexit martyr.
Sadly, Priti Patel always struck me as a tool. Her career outside of politics was confined to stints in PR, frequently lobbying for alcohol and tobacco companies, and built upon upon her links with the conservative party.
Given that she has very little experience of actual work, ie of the kind that ordinary people do to earn a living and not £300 per hour lobbying, and no academic credentials, it was quite surprising that she wrote a book peddling the idea that British workers are lazy.
It is no suprise at all that she got too close too Israeli lobbyists, to the point where she ruined her ministerial career.
Basically, I hold her in the same regard as Laura Pidcock. She is a windbag. A ranter. Someone who has no clue how to get us out of the mess we are in.
Could we see some examples of "actual work, ie of the kind that ordinary people do to earn a living and not £300 per hour lobbying", please, so that we can understand your point better?
You could try googling the average wage.
or google jobcentreplus
Um, the people whose time is billed out at £300 per hour do not get to keep all the £300. But I am sure you knew that. But anyway, the worse a job is paid, the better preparation it is for a ministerial job, yes?
Off topic: tales from one of the UK's new small business owners . Me. ... Never mind visions and fancy apps. I'd vote for a bit of boring competence, frankly, in most walks of life.
I quite agree. The number of businesses lacking basic skills is quite worrying. Even something as simple as someone phoning you when they said they would phone seems to be rare.
Efficient administration and operation generally seems to be one of those things people assume is very easy to manage, and so invest not enough in.
Mrs May is a disgrace, she should have fired Priti Patel.
Stupid dumb Librarian.
Drag someone half way around the world under a media storm to resign them? Daft. If you're sacking them have the cajones to sack them.
It makes very little difference. The end result is the same.
The site seems at its most politically partisan tonight.
Predictable really
It's a big night for politics. Two cabinet ministers gone.
Appreciate you might want to discuss the weather.
Just one tonight.
What were you hoping for? A full-on handbag fight between May and Patel with hair-pulling and screaming spilling out the door of No.10 onto Downing Street?
Mrs May is a disgrace, she should have fired Priti Patel.
Stupid dumb Librarian.
Drag someone half way around the world under a media storm to resign them? Daft. If you're sacking them have the cajones to sack them.
It makes very little difference. The end result is the same.
The site seems at its most politically partisan tonight.
Predictable really
It's a big night for politics. Two cabinet ministers gone.
Appreciate you might want to discuss the weather.
Just one tonight.
What were you hoping for? A full-on handbag fight between May and Patel with hair-pulling and screaming spilling out the door of No.10 onto Downing Street?
Mrs May is a disgrace, she should have fired Priti Patel.
Stupid dumb Librarian.
Drag someone half way around the world under a media storm to resign them? Daft. If you're sacking them have the cajones to sack them.
It makes very little difference. The end result is the same.
The site seems at its most politically partisan tonight.
Predictable really
It's a big night for politics. Two cabinet ministers gone.
Appreciate you might want to discuss the weather.
Just one tonight.
What were you hoping for? A full-on handbag fight between May and Patel with hair-pulling and screaming spilling out the door of No.10 onto Downing Street?
'Resigning' her was in my opinion a smart move on the part of Theresa May. Little chance now of her becoming the Brexit martyr.
Sadly, Priti Patel always struck me as a tool. Her career outside of politics was confined to stints in PR, frequently lobbying for alcohol and tobacco companies, and built upon upon her links with the conservative party.
Given that she has very little experience of actual work, ie of the kind that ordinary people do to earn a living and not £300 per hour lobbying, and no academic credentials, it was quite surprising that she wrote a book peddling the idea that British workers are lazy.
It is no suprise at all that she got too close too Israeli lobbyists, to the point where she ruined her ministerial career.
Basically, I hold her in the same regard as Laura Pidcock. She is a windbag. A ranter. Someone who has no clue how to get us out of the mess we are in.
Could we see some examples of "actual work, ie of the kind that ordinary people do to earn a living and not £300 per hour lobbying", please, so that we can understand your point better?
You could try googling the average wage.
or google jobcentreplus
Um, the people whose time is billed out at £300 per hour do not get to keep all the £300. But I am sure you knew that. But anyway, the worse a job is paid, the better preparation it is for a ministerial job, yes?
At my old company, my time was billed out at £1000 per day... If I saw even half of that, I would be a much richer, much happier man than I am...
Mrs May is a disgrace, she should have fired Priti Patel.
Stupid dumb Librarian.
Drag someone half way around the world under a media storm to resign them? Daft. If you're sacking them have the cajones to sack them.
It makes very little difference. The end result is the same.
I think a difference in media portrayal. One is easily portrayed as decisive. The other seems duplicitous.
Perhaps you think Carwyn Jones was decisive?
He is under pressure to resign tonight over the way he dealt with Carl Sargeant
He won't resign....he is man enough to admit he got it wrong and publically apologise...which will be accepted by all but his bitterest enemies. He will probably come out of this stronger than when he went in...unfortunately
It was not looking that way on the Welsh news tonight. The family, his constituents, and the opposition are all having a go at Carwyn Jones who has called a meeting with the Welsh Labour Group tomorrow after which he will make a statement. The reporter suggested he could resign
It has been suggested that he was coming towards the end for a while. He has after all had eight years in office.
My immediate thought however is that there is literally nobody capable of replacing him. It is not quite out of the question we could be heading for new elections in Wales.
The report tonight did say that the Welsh Labour Party had been actively undermining Carl Sargeant for some years so it seems there may be more to come out on this very sad situation.
And yes new elections may well come along due to the make up of the Assembly
Welsh Labour, Jones apart, are totally useless. People think Boris Johnson as Foreign Secretary is a joke? Alun Davies is a stupider version of BoJo with no sense of humour. Yet he may be in the frame as Labour leader. Because the alternatives are even more useless.
The one way I can see out of this mess - and it would be hilarious - is if Dafydd Elis Thomas became FM with a brief to calm things down for twelve months. He may suddenly have become value.
When it comes to politics, I'm shallow. At least I do have self-awareness, something many politicians lack. The only ones I have ever had any regard for went nowhere or sunk rapidly.
Frank Field, Charlie Kennedy, and even Neil Kinnock on a good day. All destined to be failures.
Yet Gordon Brown and the moronic Jezza (nice man, shame about the brains) will end up being ex-PMs. Life isn't fair, Beverley (if I may be presumptuous), and as an LD supporter, you should know that. Never take politics seriously or you'll end up like Lenin - with a stroke at 54.
You are definitely being presumptuous - I am not an LD supporter I merely have nowhere else to go at present. If a moderate, centrist party composed of politicians of some integrity and ability appeared then I would vote for them and to the devil with the rest of them.
I guarantee you that I will not end up having a stroke at 54.
Mrs May is a disgrace, she should have fired Priti Patel.
Stupid dumb Librarian.
Drag someone half way around the world under a media storm to resign them? Daft. If you're sacking them have the cajones to sack them.
It makes very little difference. The end result is the same.
I think a difference in media portrayal. One is easily portrayed as decisive. The other seems duplicitous.
Perhaps you think Carwyn Jones was decisive?
He is under pressure to resign tonight over the way he dealt with Carl Sargeant
He won't resign....he is man enough to admit he got it wrong and publically apologise...which will be accepted by all but his bitterest enemies. He will probably come out of this stronger than when he went in...unfortunately
It does seem odd that the twittermob is after Jones to resign without investigation as punishment for sacking without investigation.
I would recommend a period of calm quiet reflection.
He was very insensitive when announcing Carl Sargeants sacking and there are a lot of labour party members, constituents and most of all the family who are very angry indeed.
You may have had a different view if you had listened to the Welsh news this evening
Mrs May is a disgrace, she should have fired Priti Patel.
Stupid dumb Librarian.
Drag someone half way around the world under a media storm to resign them? Daft. If you're sacking them have the cajones to sack them.
It makes very little difference. The end result is the same.
I think a difference in media portrayal. One is easily portrayed as decisive. The other seems duplicitous.
Perhaps you think Carwyn Jones was decisive?
He is under pressure to resign tonight over the way he dealt with Carl Sargeant
He won't resign....he is man enough to admit he got it wrong and publically apologise...which will be accepted by all but his bitterest enemies. He will probably come out of this stronger than when he went in...unfortunately
It does seem odd that the twittermob is after Jones to resign without investigation as punishment for sacking without investigation.
I would recommend a period of calm quiet reflection.
It was very sad that Carl Sargeants death passed largely without comment.
Men have been ruined by these allegations, and in consequence, their famillies. There are other examples of male suicides in response to #metoo.
Mrs May is a disgrace, she should have fired Priti Patel.
Stupid dumb Librarian.
Drag someone half way around the world under a media storm to resign them? Daft. If you're sacking them have the cajones to sack them.
It makes very little difference. The end result is the same.
I think a difference in media portrayal. One is easily portrayed as decisive. The other seems duplicitous.
Perhaps you think Carwyn Jones was decisive?
He is under pressure to resign tonight over the way he dealt with Carl Sargeant
He won't resign....he is man enough to admit he got it wrong and publically apologise...which will be accepted by all but his bitterest enemies. He will probably come out of this stronger than when he went in...unfortunately
It does seem odd that the twittermob is after Jones to resign without investigation as punishment for sacking without investigation.
I would recommend a period of calm quiet reflection.
A man is dead apparently because he was sacked without investigation and you sit on your high horse proclaiming that a period of quiet calm is required. Try telling that to his family.
Mrs May is a disgrace, she should have fired Priti Patel.
Stupid dumb Librarian.
Drag someone half way around the world under a media storm to resign them? Daft. If you're sacking them have the cajones to sack them.
It makes very little difference. The end result is the same.
I think a difference in media portrayal. One is easily portrayed as decisive. The other seems duplicitous.
Perhaps you think Carwyn Jones was decisive?
He is under pressure to resign tonight over the way he dealt with Carl Sargeant
He won't resign....he is man enough to admit he got it wrong and publically apologise...which will be accepted by all but his bitterest enemies. He will probably come out of this stronger than when he went in...unfortunately
It does seem odd that the twittermob is after Jones to resign without investigation as punishment for sacking without investigation.
I would recommend a period of calm quiet reflection.
A man is dead apparently because he was sacked without investigation and you sit on your high horse proclaiming that a period of quiet calm is required. Try telling that to his family.
Off topic: tales from one of the UK's new small business owners . Me. ... Never mind visions and fancy apps. I'd vote for a bit of boring competence, frankly, in most walks of life.
I quite agree. The number of businesses lacking basic skills is quite worrying. Even something as simple as someone phoning you when they said they would phone seems to be rare.
Efficient administration and operation generally seems to be one of those things people assume is very easy to manage, and so invest not enough in.
For a lot of business tasks you need little more than a decent desk diary and some discipline. I came across a chappie on the radio many years ago who summed up his business admin strategy. He had a little desk ornament that had four words on it - Act, File, Bin, Pass
His logic was that they were the only four tasks you needed for time management and three of them involved passing the buck.
File - no further action needed Bin - waste of time Pass - not my stuff, give to the correct person
If anything got through those three then he "acted" on it. I adopted the same strategy and it works really well.
"Lord Polak is a veteran of Westminster’s corridors of power. He has taken literally hundreds of Tory MPs to Israel over the years, educating them about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and securing their support in parliamentary votes and the public arena."
"Lord Polak is a veteran of Westminster’s corridors of power. He has taken literally hundreds of Tory MPs to Israel over the years, educating them about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and securing their support in parliamentary votes and the public arena."
Off topic: tales from one of the UK's new small business owners . Me. ... Never mind visions and fancy apps. I'd vote for a bit of boring competence, frankly, in most walks of life.
I quite agree. The number of businesses lacking basic skills is quite worrying. Even something as simple as someone phoning you when they said they would phone seems to be rare.
Efficient administration and operation generally seems to be one of those things people assume is very easy to manage, and so invest not enough in.
When an acquaintance started a business, the first thing he did was poach a HR/admin lady he knew from another company. He puts much of the company's success as being down to her.
'Resigning' her was in my opinion a smart move on the part of Theresa May. Little chance now of her becoming the Brexit martyr.
Sadly, Priti Patel always struck me as a tool. Her career outside of politics was confined to stints in PR, frequently lobbying for alcohol and tobacco companies, and built upon upon her links with the conservative party.
Given that she has very little experience of actual work, ie of the kind that ordinary people do to earn a living and not £300 per hour lobbying, and no academic credentials, it was quite surprising that she wrote a book peddling the idea that British workers are lazy.
It is no suprise at all that she got too close too Israeli lobbyists, to the point where she ruined her ministerial career.
Basically, I hold her in the same regard as Laura Pidcock. She is a windbag. A ranter. Someone who has no clue how to get us out of the mess we are in.
Could we see some examples of "actual work, ie of the kind that ordinary people do to earn a living and not £300 per hour lobbying", please, so that we can understand your point better?
You could try googling the average wage.
or google jobcentreplus
Um, the people whose time is billed out at £300 per hour do not get to keep all the £300. But I am sure you knew that. But anyway, the worse a job is paid, the better preparation it is for a ministerial job, yes?
At my old company, my time was billed out at £1000 per day... If I saw even half of that, I would be a much richer, much happier man than I am...
These kinds of professional services are not representative of the real economy. Most services within the real economy (tradesman. Driving instructor. Personal trainer) are outside of London billed in the region of £20 -£30 per hour.
A lobbyist on the other hand has no actual skills apart from being in the right place in the right time and knowing the right people. This is actually true of many professional services (I can speak from personal experience). People involved in these industries then convince themselves that they are worth more than everyone else in the economy, but it is all bullshit.
Off topic: tales from one of the UK's new small business owners . Me.
I went to my bank to open a business account. While waiting the branch was proudly showing a film saying that it was going to reintroduce...... TA DA! ...... bank managers. Blimey. Just like there used to be. Whatever next? Employees who can count, maybe.
It still took an hour and a lot of faffing mainly because I had to tell them what to do, what all the documents were and where to send them. Plus they did not know how to operate their own photocopying machine so had to get them to do that twice.
I was very tempted to tell them that my new business will consist of training people like them not to behave like fuckwits but thought better of it. For the time being anyway.
It's a wonder sometimes how our financial services sector grew to be as big as it is. Still, from what I hear of German banks they are even less capable than ours at organising a piss up in a brewery. So maybe that's it. Our competitive advantage is that we're not as crap as they are.
There's a marketing slogan: "Not as crap as the other banks."
A bit like the trader at a Dutch bank caught up in one of the many LIBOR scandals who wrote a chat saying: "There are bigger crooks than us out there."
Never mind visions and fancy apps. I'd vote for a bit of boring competence, frankly, in most walks of life.
"Not as crap as the other banks?"
I'd rather go with "Actually rather good, in a tastefully understated way"
Mrs May is a disgrace, she should have fired Priti Patel.
Stupid dumb Librarian.
Drag someone half way around the world under a media storm to resign them? Daft. If you're sacking them have the cajones to sack them.
It makes very little difference. The end result is the same.
I think a difference in media portrayal. One is easily portrayed as decisive. The other seems duplicitous.
Perhaps you think Carwyn Jones was decisive?
He is under pressure to resign tonight over the way he dealt with Carl Sargeant
He won't resign....he is man enough to admit he got it wrong and publically apologise...which will be accepted by all but his bitterest enemies. He will probably come out of this stronger than when he went in...unfortunately
It does seem odd that the twittermob is after Jones to resign without investigation as punishment for sacking without investigation.
I would recommend a period of calm quiet reflection.
A man is dead apparently because he was sacked without investigation and you sit on your high horse proclaiming that a period of quiet calm is required. Try telling that to his family.
And a lot of people in North Wales
I have been very busy lately and not had much chance to comment on anything in spite of everything that is going on. If I am going to spend a minute or two on one comment it has to be on this.
I am extremely angry and saddened at what has happened to Carl Sargeant. Like almost everyone else I have no idea if he was guilty of anything at all. What I do know is that it appears he was abandoned and ostracised by his party and those who should have been there to support him but who could not bring themselves to do so because of the current climate of fear. Even his death seems to have passed without much comment. It doesn't matter what his politics were or what party he belonged to. He deserved better than this.
Mrs May is a disgrace, she should have fired Priti Patel.
Stupid dumb Librarian.
Drag someone half way around the world under a media storm to resign them? Daft. If you're sacking them have the cajones to sack them.
It makes very little difference. The end result is the same.
I think a difference in media portrayal. One is easily portrayed as decisive. The other seems duplicitous.
Perhaps you think Carwyn Jones was decisive?
He is under pressure to resign tonight over the way he dealt with Carl Sargeant
He won't resign....he is man enough to admit he got it wrong and publically apologise...which will be accepted by all but his bitterest enemies. He will probably come out of this stronger than when he went in...unfortunately
It does seem odd that the twittermob is after Jones to resign without investigation as punishment for sacking without investigation.
I would recommend a period of calm quiet reflection.
A man is dead apparently because he was sacked without investigation and you sit on your high horse proclaiming that a period of quiet calm is required. Try telling that to his family.
And a lot of people in North Wales
I have been very busy lately and not had much chance to comment on anything in spite of everything that is going on. If I am going to spend a minute or two on one comment it has to be on this.
I am extremely angry and saddened at what has happened to Carl Sargeant. Like almost everyone else I have no idea if he was guilty of anything at all. What I do know is that it appears he was abandoned and ostracised by his party and those who should have been there to support him but who could not bring themselves to do so because of the current climate of fear. Even his death seems to have passed without much comment. It doesn't matter what his politics were or what party he belonged to. He deserved better than this.
Mrs May is a disgrace, she should have fired Priti Patel.
Stupid dumb Librarian.
Drag someone half way around the world under a media storm to resign them? Daft. If you're sacking them have the cajones to sack them.
It makes very little difference. The end result is the same.
I think a difference in media portrayal. One is easily portrayed as decisive. The other seems duplicitous.
Perhaps you think Carwyn Jones was decisive?
He is under pressure to resign tonight over the way he dealt with Carl Sargeant
He won't resign....he is man enough to admit he got it wrong and publically apologise...which will be accepted by all but his bitterest enemies. He will probably come out of this stronger than when he went in...unfortunately
It does seem odd that the twittermob is after Jones to resign without investigation as punishment for sacking without investigation.
I would recommend a period of calm quiet reflection.
It was very sad that Carl Sargeants death passed largely without comment.
Men have been ruined by these allegations, and in consequence, their famillies. There are other examples of male suicides in response to #metoo.
Be very careful about cheering this on.
Well said. Several suicides in Hollywood, including one actor just last week who was reported to be a victim of abuse about to speak out.
There are going to be people dragged into this who have either done nothing wrong or were victims of abuse who wish to forget what happened to them. Everyone needs to calm down a little in the reporting of these things, ensure that allegations are appropriately investigated and those who have done wrong are receive an appropriate punishment - while those who are innocent can have their reputations protected.
In order to have a GE this year, the Commons must vote for one between Mon and Wed next week - which would mean a GE on Thur 21 Dec.
Is there really any prospect of this whatsoever?
A Christmas election sounds oddly interesting.
Maybe we could have polling stations at the end of Tesco checkouts, since that will be where a good % of the population will be most of the time by 21st Dec.
Mrs May is a disgrace, she should have fired Priti Patel.
Stupid dumb Librarian.
Drag someone half way around the world under a media storm to resign them? Daft. If you're sacking them have the cajones to sack them.
It makes very little difference. The end result is the same.
I think a difference in media portrayal. One is easily portrayed as decisive. The other seems duplicitous.
Perhaps you think Carwyn Jones was decisive?
He is under pressure to resign tonight over the way he dealt with Carl Sargeant
He won't resign....he is man enough to admit he got it wrong and publically apologise...which will be accepted by all but his bitterest enemies. He will probably come out of this stronger than when he went in...unfortunately
It does seem odd that the twittermob is after Jones to resign without investigation as punishment for sacking without investigation.
I would recommend a period of calm quiet reflection.
It was very sad that Carl Sargeants death passed largely without comment.
Men have been ruined by these allegations, and in consequence, their famillies. There are other examples of male suicides in response to #metoo.
Innocent or guilty, having a life's work disappear, as well as family etc is very traumatic. Indeed for the guilty probably even more traumatic. Both innocent and guilty need support as well as the victims. Too many kill themselves in our judicial system.
A bit of sober due process and a quick and open investigation is the way, but all too often we have twittermob and Kafkaesque trial.
Mrs May is a disgrace, she should have fired Priti Patel.
Stupid dumb Librarian.
Drag someone half way around the world under a media storm to resign them? Daft. If you're sacking them have the cajones to sack them.
It makes very little difference. The end result is the same.
I think a difference in media portrayal. One is easily portrayed as decisive. The other seems duplicitous.
Perhaps you think Carwyn Jones was decisive?
He is under pressure to resign tonight over the way he dealt with Carl Sargeant
He won't resign....he is man enough to admit he got it wrong and publically apologise...which will be accepted by all but his bitterest enemies. He will probably come out of this stronger than when he went in...unfortunately
It does seem odd that the twittermob is after Jones to resign without investigation as punishment for sacking without investigation.
I would recommend a period of calm quiet reflection.
A man is dead apparently because he was sacked without investigation and you sit on your high horse proclaiming that a period of quiet calm is required. Try telling that to his family.
And a lot of people in North Wales
I have been very busy lately and not had much chance to comment on anything in spite of everything that is going on. If I am going to spend a minute or two on one comment it has to be on this.
I am extremely angry and saddened at what has happened to Carl Sargeant. Like almost everyone else I have no idea if he was guilty of anything at all. What I do know is that it appears he was abandoned and ostracised by his party and those who should have been there to support him but who could not bring themselves to do so because of the current climate of fear. Even his death seems to have passed without much comment. It doesn't matter what his politics were or what party he belonged to. He deserved better than this.
"Lord Polak is a veteran of Westminster’s corridors of power. He has taken literally hundreds of Tory MPs to Israel over the years, educating them about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and securing their support in parliamentary votes and the public arena."
In order to have a GE this year, the Commons must vote for one between Mon and Wed next week - which would mean a GE on Thur 21 Dec.
Is there really any prospect of this whatsoever?
Good spot Sir. Free money! Unless Mrs May calls an election tomorrow there’s no chance of it being this year.
Not even sure the MPs would vote for the motion if it were put to them next week, going to the polls the week before Christmas would get a massive thumbs down from anyone involved in campaigning - and probably from the wider electorate too!
Mrs May is a disgrace, she should have fired Priti Patel.
Stupid dumb Librarian.
Drag someone half way around the world under a media storm to resign them? Daft. If you're sacking them have the cajones to sack them.
It makes very little difference. The end result is the same.
I think a difference in media portrayal. One is easily portrayed as decisive. The other seems duplicitous.
Perhaps you think Carwyn Jones was decisive?
He is under pressure to resign tonight over the way he dealt with Carl Sargeant
He won't resign....he is man enough to admit he got it wrong and publically apologise...which will be accepted by all but his bitterest enemies. He will probably come out of this stronger than when he went in...unfortunately
It does seem odd that the twittermob is after Jones to resign without investigation as punishment for sacking without investigation.
I would recommend a period of calm quiet reflection.
It was very sad that Carl Sargeants death passed largely without comment.
Men have been ruined by these allegations, and in consequence, their famillies. There are other examples of male suicides in response to #metoo.
Innocent or guilty, having a life's work disappear, as well as family etc is very traumatic. Indeed for the guilty probably even more traumatic. Both innocent and guilty need support as well as the victims. Too many kill themselves in our judicial system.
A bit of sober due process and a quick and open investigation is the way, but all too often we have twittermob and Kafkaesque trial.
This is just wrong and out of order.
Very surprised that you can even attempt to justify yourself while the anger over Carl Sargeant is so palpable here in North Wales
Mrs May is a disgrace, she should have fired Priti Patel.
Stupid dumb Librarian.
Drag someone half way around the world under a media storm to resign them? Daft. If you're sacking them have the cajones to sack them.
It makes very little difference. The end result is the same.
I think a difference in media portrayal. One is easily portrayed as decisive. The other seems duplicitous.
Perhaps you think Carwyn Jones was decisive?
He is under pressure to resign tonight over the way he dealt with Carl Sargeant
He won't resign....he is man enough to admit he got it wrong and publically apologise...which will be accepted by all but his bitterest enemies. He will probably come out of this stronger than when he went in...unfortunately
It does seem odd that the twittermob is after Jones to resign without investigation as punishment for sacking without investigation.
I would recommend a period of calm quiet reflection.
It was very sad that Carl Sargeants death passed largely without comment.
Men have been ruined by these allegations, and in consequence, their famillies. There are other examples of male suicides in response to #metoo.
Be very careful about cheering this on.
Huh? You think we need to stop cheering, like tell women to just shut up and take it like the old days? It's not that the PBs are old blokes who just don't get it, I think Mr Smithson completely gets it but there is a lot of male resentment below the line.
Mrs May is a disgrace, she should have fired Priti Patel.
Stupid dumb Librarian.
Drag someone half way around the world under a media storm to resign them? Daft. If you're sacking them have the cajones to sack them.
It makes very little difference. The end result is the same.
I think a difference in media portrayal. One is easily portrayed as decisive. The other seems duplicitous.
Perhaps you think Carwyn Jones was decisive?
He is under pressure to resign tonight over the way he dealt with Carl Sargeant
He won't resign....he is man enough to admit he got it wrong and publically apologise...which will be accepted by all but his bitterest enemies. He will probably come out of this stronger than when he went in...unfortunately
It does seem odd that the twittermob is after Jones to resign without investigation as punishment for sacking without investigation.
I would recommend a period of calm quiet reflection.
A man is dead apparently because he was sacked without investigation and you sit on your high horse proclaiming that a period of quiet calm is required. Try telling that to his family.
Sacking someone else without proper investigation is not the way forward.
I do have some knowledge of this. I knew this doctor:
Mrs May is a disgrace, she should have fired Priti Patel.
Stupid dumb Librarian.
Drag someone half way around the world under a media storm to resign them? Daft. If you're sacking them have the cajones to sack them.
It makes very little difference. The end result is the same.
I think a difference in media portrayal. One is easily portrayed as decisive. The other seems duplicitous.
Perhaps you think Carwyn Jones was decisive?
He is under pressure to resign tonight over the way he dealt with Carl Sargeant
He won't resign....he is man enough to admit he got it wrong and publically apologise...which will be accepted by all but his bitterest enemies. He will probably come out of this stronger than when he went in...unfortunately
It does seem odd that the twittermob is after Jones to resign without investigation as punishment for sacking without investigation.
I would recommend a period of calm quiet reflection.
It was very sad that Carl Sargeants death passed largely without comment.
Men have been ruined by these allegations, and in consequence, their famillies. There are other examples of male suicides in response to #metoo.
Be very careful about cheering this on.
Huh? You think we need to stop cheering, like tell women to just shut up and take it like the old days? .
Those are not the only options, and pretending it is does not help either.
Mrs May is a disgrace, she should have fired Priti Patel.
Stupid dumb Librarian.
Drag someone half way around the world under a media storm to resign them? Daft. If you're sacking them have the cajones to sack them.
It makes very little difference. The end result is the same.
I think a difference in media portrayal. One is easily portrayed as decisive. The other seems duplicitous.
Perhaps you think Carwyn Jones was decisive?
He is under pressure to resign tonight over the way he dealt with Carl Sargeant
He won't resign....he is man enough to admit he got it wrong and publically apologise...which will be accepted by all but his bitterest enemies. He will probably come out of this stronger than when he went in...unfortunately
It does seem odd that the twittermob is after Jones to resign without investigation as punishment for sacking without investigation.
I would recommend a period of calm quiet reflection.
It was very sad that Carl Sargeants death passed largely without comment.
Men have been ruined by these allegations, and in consequence, their famillies. There are other examples of male suicides in response to #metoo.
Innocent or guilty, having a life's work disappear, as well as family etc is very traumatic. Indeed for the guilty probably even more traumatic. Both innocent and guilty need support as well as the victims. Too many kill themselves in our judicial system.
A bit of sober due process and a quick and open investigation is the way, but all too often we have twittermob and Kafkaesque trial.
Umm. Carl Sargeant was not given the benefit of a quick and open investigation before he was sacked. Indeed, he was not even told what he had supposedly done wrong. Richard Tyndall is right to be outraged by Sargeant's treatment by Labour. It's a disgrace.
Mrs May is a disgrace, she should have fired Priti Patel.
Stupid dumb Librarian.
Drag someone half way around the world under a media storm to resign them? Daft. If you're sacking them have the cajones to sack them.
It makes very little difference. The end result is the same.
I think a difference in media portrayal. One is easily portrayed as decisive. The other seems duplicitous.
Perhaps you think Carwyn Jones was decisive?
He is under pressure to resign tonight over the way he dealt with Carl Sargeant
He won't resign....he is man enough to admit he got it wrong and publically apologise...which will be accepted by all but his bitterest enemies. He will probably come out of this stronger than when he went in...unfortunately
It does seem odd that the twittermob is after Jones to resign without investigation as punishment for sacking without investigation.
I would recommend a period of calm quiet reflection.
It was very sad that Carl Sargeants death passed largely without comment.
Men have been ruined by these allegations, and in consequence, their famillies. There are other examples of male suicides in response to #metoo.
Be very careful about cheering this on.
Huh? You think we need to stop cheering, like tell women to just shut up and take it like the old days? It's not that the PBs are old blokes who just don't get it, I think Mr Smithson completely gets it but there is a lot of male resentment below the line.
Mrs May is a disgrace, she should have fired Priti Patel.
Stupid dumb Librarian.
Drag someone half way around the world under a media storm to resign them? Daft. If you're sacking them have the cajones to sack them.
It makes very little difference. The end result is the same.
I think a difference in media portrayal. One is easily portrayed as decisive. The other seems duplicitous.
Perhaps you think Carwyn Jones was decisive?
He is under pressure to resign tonight over the way he dealt with Carl Sargeant
He won't resign....he is man enough to admit he got it wrong and publically apologise...which will be accepted by all but his bitterest enemies. He will probably come out of this stronger than when he went in...unfortunately
It does seem odd that the twittermob is after Jones to resign without investigation as punishment for sacking without investigation.
I would recommend a period of calm quiet reflection.
It was very sad that Carl Sargeants death passed largely without comment.
Men have been ruined by these allegations, and in consequence, their famillies. There are other examples of male suicides in response to #metoo.
Be very careful about cheering this on.
Huh? You think we need to stop cheering, like tell women to just shut up and take it like the old days? It's not that the PBs are old blokes who just don't get it, I think Mr Smithson completely gets it but there is a lot of male resentment below the line.
What a stupid fucking comment. No one has said women should not complain and should not be taken seriously. No one has said those guilty should not be punished. But we do have a system that is supposed to say people are given a fair trial before they are found guilty. Too many times this is not happening and the death of Carl Sargeant seems to be a god example of this.
Unless of course you are suggesting that the mere act of accusation should be taken as being sufficient evidence to justify hounding a man to his death.
Mrs May is a disgrace, she should have fired Priti Patel.
Stupid dumb Librarian.
Drag someone half way around the world under a media storm to resign them? Daft. If you're sacking them have the cajones to sack them.
It makes very little difference. The end result is the same.
I think a difference in media portrayal. One is easily portrayed as decisive. The other seems duplicitous.
Perhaps you think Carwyn Jones was decisive?
He is under pressure to resign tonight over the way he dealt with Carl Sargeant
He won't resign....he is man enough to admit he got it wrong and publically apologise...which will be accepted by all but his bitterest enemies. He will probably come out of this stronger than when he went in...unfortunately
It does seem odd that the twittermob is after Jones to resign without investigation as punishment for sacking without investigation.
I would recommend a period of calm quiet reflection.
It was very sad that Carl Sargeants death passed largely without comment.
Men have been ruined by these allegations, and in consequence, their famillies. There are other examples of male suicides in response to #metoo.
Be very careful about cheering this on.
Huh? You think we need to stop cheering, like tell women to just shut up and take it like the old days? It's not that the PBs are old blokes who just don't get it, I think Mr Smithson completely gets it but there is a lot of male resentment below the line.
A man has just taken his life here in North Wales. He was greatly loved by his family and the community. We need to be calm and respectful - and by the way I am a conservative and Carl was a lifelong labour supporter. This is not politics
Mrs May is a disgrace, she should have fired Priti Patel.
Stupid dumb Librarian.
Drag someone half way around the world under a media storm to resign them? Daft. If you're sacking them have the cajones to sack them.
It makes very little difference. The end result is the same.
I think a difference in media portrayal. One is easily portrayed as decisive. The other seems duplicitous.
Perhaps you think Carwyn Jones was decisive?
He is under pressure to resign tonight over the way he dealt with Carl Sargeant
He won't resign....he is man enough to admit he got it wrong and publically apologise...which will be accepted by all but his bitterest enemies. He will probably come out of this stronger than when he went in...unfortunately
It does seem odd that the twittermob is after Jones to resign without investigation as punishment for sacking without investigation.
I would recommend a period of calm quiet reflection.
It was very sad that Carl Sargeants death passed largely without comment.
Men have been ruined by these allegations, and in consequence, their famillies. There are other examples of male suicides in response to #metoo.
Be very careful about cheering this on.
Huh? You think we need to stop cheering, like tell women to just shut up and take it like the old days? It's not that the PBs are old blokes who just don't get it, I think Mr Smithson completely gets it but there is a lot of male resentment below the line.
Mrs May is a disgrace, she should have fired Priti Patel.
Stupid dumb Librarian.
Drag someone half way around the world under a media storm to resign them? Daft. If you're sacking them have the cajones to sack them.
It makes very little difference. The end result is the same.
I think a difference in media portrayal. One is easily portrayed as decisive. The other seems duplicitous.
Perhaps you think Carwyn Jones was decisive?
He is under pressure to resign tonight over the way he dealt with Carl Sargeant
He won't resign....he is man enough to admit he got it wrong and publically apologise...which will be accepted by all but his bitterest enemies. He will probably come out of this stronger than when he went in...unfortunately
It does seem odd that the twittermob is after Jones to resign without investigation as punishment for sacking without investigation.
I would recommend a period of calm quiet reflection.
It was very sad that Carl Sargeants death passed largely without comment.
Men have been ruined by these allegations, and in consequence, their famillies. There are other examples of male suicides in response to #metoo.
Be very careful about cheering this on.
Huh? You think we need to stop cheering, like tell women to just shut up and take it like the old days? It's not that the PBs are old blokes who just don't get it, I think Mr Smithson completely gets it but there is a lot of male resentment below the line.
Mrs May is a disgrace, she should have fired Priti Patel.
Stupid dumb Librarian.
Drag someone half way around the world under a media storm to resign them? Daft. If you're sacking them have the cajones to sack them.
It makes very little difference. The end result is the same.
I think a difference in media portrayal. One is easily portrayed as decisive. The other seems duplicitous.
Perhaps you think Carwyn Jones was decisive?
He is under pressure to resign tonight over the way he dealt with Carl Sargeant
He won't resign....he is man enough to admit he got it wrong and publically apologise...which will be accepted by all but his bitterest enemies. He will probably come out of this stronger than when he went in...unfortunately
It does seem odd that the twittermob is after Jones to resign without investigation as punishment for sacking without investigation.
I would recommend a period of calm quiet reflection.
A man is dead apparently because he was sacked without investigation and you sit on your high horse proclaiming that a period of quiet calm is required. Try telling that to his family.
And a lot of people in North Wales
I have been very busy lately and not had much chance to comment on anything in spite of everything that is going on. If I am going to spend a minute or two on one comment it has to be on this.
I am extremely angry and saddened at what has happened to Carl Sargeant. Like almost everyone else I have no idea if he was guilty of anything at all. What I do know is that it appears he was abandoned and ostracised by his party and those who should have been there to support him but who could not bring themselves to do so because of the current climate of fear. Even his death seems to have passed without much comment. It doesn't matter what his politics were or what party he belonged to. He deserved better than this.
I completely agree. Being accused of something which is personally and professionally ruinous without even knowing your accuser or what precisely you are accused of goes against any idea of natural justice. It is unimaginable which I imagine is why he did what he did. It was always only going to be a matter of time before something like this happened and I hope there are some very shamed people in Wales tonight.
Mrs May is a disgrace, she should have fired Priti Patel.
Stupid dumb Librarian.
Drag someone half way around the world under a media storm to resign them? Daft. If you're sacking them have the cajones to sack them.
It makes very little difference. The end result is the same.
I think a difference in media portrayal. One is easily portrayed as decisive. The other seems duplicitous.
Perhaps you think Carwyn Jones was decisive?
He is under pressure to resign tonight over the way he dealt with Carl Sargeant
He won't resign....he is man enough to admit he got it wrong and publically apologise...which will be accepted by all but his bitterest enemies. He will probably come out of this stronger than when he went in...unfortunately
It does seem odd that the twittermob is after Jones to resign without investigation as punishment for sacking without investigation.
I would recommend a period of calm quiet reflection.
It was very sad that Carl Sargeants death passed largely without comment.
Men have been ruined by these allegations, and in consequence, their famillies. There are other examples of male suicides in response to #metoo.
Be very careful about cheering this on.
28 doctors kil.
Umm. Carl Sargeant was not given the benefit of a quick and open investigation before he was sacked. Indeed, he was not even told what he had supposedly done wrong. Richard Tyndall is right to be outraged by Sargeant's treatment by Labour. It's a disgrace.
So have a witch hunt against some one else and sack them without proper investigation?
All I am asking for is these incidents to be investigated properly and openly. Maybe that was not done in the Sergeant case. Maybe it is not being done in some of the other stories that have been in the press either.
Mrs May is a disgrace, she should have fired Priti Patel.
Stupid dumb Librarian.
Drag someone half way around the world under a media storm to resign them? Daft. If you're sacking them have the cajones to sack them.
It makes very little difference. The end result is the same.
I think a difference in media portrayal. One is easily portrayed as decisive. The other seems duplicitous.
Perhaps you think Carwyn Jones was decisive?
He is under pressure to resign tonight over the way he dealt with Carl Sargeant
He won't resign....he is man enough to admit he got it wrong and publically apologise...which will be accepted by all but his bitterest enemies. He will probably come out of this stronger than when he went in...unfortunately
It does seem odd that the twittermob is after Jones to resign without investigation as punishment for sacking without investigation.
I would recommend a period of calm quiet reflection.
It was very sad that Carl Sargeants death passed largely without comment.
Men have been ruined by these allegations, and in consequence, their famillies. There are other examples of male suicides in response to #metoo.
Be very careful about cheering this on.
Huh? You think we need to stop cheering, like tell women to just shut up and take it like the old days? It's not that the PBs are old blokes who just don't get it, I think Mr Smithson completely gets it but there is a lot of male resentment below the line.
We don't know which, if any, women have been taking what, if any, flavour of it. We will know after the matter has been investigated. In the mean time this man leaves a widow and two, presumably youngish, children. So how about trying to be fractionally less of an arse?
Off topic: tales from one of the UK's new small business owners . Me.
I went to my bank to open a business account. While waiting the branch was proudly showing a film saying that it was going to reintroduce...... TA DA! ...... bank managers. Blimey. Just like there used to be. Whatever next? Employees who can count, maybe.
It still took an hour and a lot of faffing mainly because I had to tell them what to do, what all the documents were and where to send them. Plus they did not know how to operate their own photocopying machine so had to get them to do that twice.
I was very tempted to tell them that my new business will consist of training people like them not to behave like fuckwits but thought better of it. For the time being anyway.
It's a wonder sometimes how our financial services sector grew to be as big as it is. Still, from what I hear of German banks they are even less capable than ours at organising a piss up in a brewery. So maybe that's it. Our competitive advantage is that we're not as crap as they are.
There's a marketing slogan: "Not as crap as the other banks."
A bit like the trader at a Dutch bank caught up in one of the many LIBOR scandals who wrote a chat saying: "There are bigger crooks than us out there."
Never mind visions and fancy apps. I'd vote for a bit of boring competence, frankly, in most walks of life.
"Not as crap as the other banks?"
I'd rather go with "Actually rather good, in a tastefully understated way"
If you would like to sell your services to me - or make other useful suggestions (I am not without assets - how's that for understatement?) then I am all ears. I can provide my own tastefulness. Efficiency and competence and honesty (I know, I know - how naive and dreamy can one be) are what I'm after.
Mrs May is a disgrace, she should have fired Priti Patel.
Stupid dumb Librarian.
Drag someone half way around the world under a media storm to resign them? Daft. If you're sacking them have the cajones to sack them.
It makes very little difference. The end result is the same.
I think a difference in media portrayal. One is easily portrayed as decisive. The other seems duplicitous.
Perhaps you think Carwyn Jones was decisive?
He is under pressure to resign tonight over the way he dealt with Carl Sargeant
He won't resign....he is man enough to admit he got it wrong and publically apologise...which will be accepted by all but his bitterest enemies. He will probably come out of this stronger than when he went in...unfortunately
It does seem odd that the twittermob is after Jones to resign without investigation as punishment for sacking without investigation.
I would recommend a period of calm quiet reflection.
It was very sad that Carl Sargeants death passed largely without comment.
Men have been ruined by these allegations, and in consequence, their famillies. There are other examples of male suicides in response to #metoo.
Be very careful about cheering this on.
Huh? You think we need to stop cheering, like tell women to just shut up and take it like the old days? It's not that the PBs are old blokes who just don't get it, I think Mr Smithson completely gets it but there is a lot of male resentment below the line.
Pretty much this.
Victims need support of course too, but the prospect and process of potentially career ruining allegations is very stressful on the alleged perpetrators too.
I hope Mr Sargeants accusers are also getting support and advice. I am sure they did not wish him dead whatever they did. Suicide is an awful thing.
Mrs May is a disgrace, she should have fired Priti Patel.
Stupid dumb Librarian.
Drag someone half way around the world under a media storm to resign them? Daft. If you're sacking them have the cajones to sack them.
It makes very little difference. The end result is the same.
I think a difference in media portrayal. One is easily portrayed as decisive. The other seems duplicitous.
Perhaps you think Carwyn Jones was decisive?
He is under pressure to resign tonight over the way he dealt with Carl Sargeant
He won't resign....he is man enough to admit he got it wrong and publically apologise...which will be accepted by all but his bitterest enemies. He will probably come out of this stronger than when he went in...unfortunately
It does seem odd that the twittermob is after Jones to resign without investigation as punishment for sacking without investigation.
I would recommend a period of calm quiet reflection.
It was very sad that Carl Sargeants death passed largely without comment.
Men have been ruined by these allegations, and in consequence, their famillies. There are other examples of male suicides in response to #metoo.
Be very careful about cheering this on.
28 doctors kil.
Umm. Carl Sargeant was not given the benefit of a quick and open investigation before he was sacked. Indeed, he was not even told what he had supposedly done wrong. Richard Tyndall is right to be outraged by Sargeant's treatment by Labour. It's a disgrace.
So have a witch hunt against some one else and sack them without proper investigation?
All I am asking for is these incidents to be investigated properly and openly. Maybe that was not done in the Sergeant case. Maybe it is not being done in some of the other stories that have been in the press either.
It is the family who matter here and Carwyn Jones is in the firing line for the way he announced his sacking. There is no 'maybe' in Carl's case and if anything comes out of this we all need to give thought to just how these accusations are dealt with and put into the public domain
Mrs May is a disgrace, she should have fired Priti Patel.
Stupid dumb Librarian.
Drag someone half way around the world under a media storm to resign them? Daft. If you're sacking them have the cajones to sack them.
It makes very little difference. The end result is the same.
I think a difference in media portrayal. One is easily portrayed as decisive. The other seems duplicitous.
Perhaps you think Carwyn Jones was decisive?
He is under pressure to resign tonight over the way he dealt with Carl Sargeant
He won't resign....he is man enough to admit he got it wrong and publically apologise...which will be accepted by all but his bitterest enemies. He will probably come out of this stronger than when he went in...unfortunately
It does seem odd that the twittermob is after Jones to resign without investigation as punishment for sacking without investigation.
I would recommend a period of calm quiet reflection.
It was very sad that Carl Sargeants death passed largely without comment.
Men have been ruined by these allegations, and in consequence, their famillies. There are other examples of male suicides in response to #metoo.
Be very careful about cheering this on.
Huh? You think we need to stop cheering, like tell women to just shut up and take it like the old days? It's not that the PBs are old blokes who just don't get it, I think Mr Smithson completely gets it but there is a lot of male resentment below the line.
I've seen a lot of right on cheering on here over the past few days from people that should know better.
It is a mockery of justice and the rule of law that someone can self identify as a "victim" and then accuse someone else of being an "abuser" and then rely on the concept that as a victim they should always be believed. Meanwhile, the "abuser" gets blacklisted and his life (and family) ruined. It not kafkasque, it is just a witchhunt in its most crude and basic sense.
I see the Guardian are really barrel scraping now with the paradise papers...Justin timberlake registered a company in the Bahamas...Outrage...Why...To buy a golf course...Where was the bloody tax dodger buying this golf course...The Bahamas...
Deliberately making binary an issue that is not binary. It is not 'Person A believes any accusation is proof of guilt therefore it doesn't matter how the accused are treated' and 'Person B wants women to shut up and take it like the old days'.
Idiots will be found to occupy both those positions. I would hope we, all being sensible, would see that the fair position is not one of those two, and therefore it would be insulting to suggest, as EPG did, that anyone expressing concern about being people ruined by allegations which have not even been investigated let alone proven, wants women to shut up and take it.
Really? People who express concern at jumping to conclusions, while being absolutely in favour of the guilty being punished (the guilty including those 'merely' getting away with the sort of casual sexist behaviour that would have not drawn comment decades ago), just want women to shut the hell up?
And if one does not intend to tar everyone with that brush, they should be more careful with their language. Tying 'old male resentment' as the reason for any concern, and suggesting that concern equates to wanting women to shut the hell up, is nonsensical.
And of course, for the record, while women I imagine make up most of the victims, we don't want the men who have been treated poorly or, gods forbid, abused, but (probably mostly) men to shut up either.
Mrs May is a disgrace, she should have fired Priti Patel.
Stupid dumb Librarian.
Drag someone half way around the world under a media storm to resign them? Daft. If you're sacking them have the cajones to sack them.
It makes very little difference. The end result is the same.
I think a difference in media portrayal. One is easily portrayed as decisive. The other seems duplicitous.
Perhaps you think Carwyn Jones was decisive?
He is under pressure to resign tonight over the way he dealt with Carl Sargeant
He won't resign....he is man enough to admit he got it wrong and publically apologise...which will be accepted by all but his bitterest enemies. He will probably come out of this stronger than when he went in...unfortunately
It does seem odd that the twittermob is after Jones to resign without investigation as punishment for sacking without investigation.
I would recommend a period of calm quiet reflection.
It was very sad that Carl Sargeants death passed largely without comment.
Men have been ruined by these allegations, and in consequence, their famillies. There are other examples of male suicides in response to #metoo.
Be very careful about cheering this on.
28 doctors kil.
Umm. Carl Sargeant was not given the benefit of a quick and open investigation before he was sacked. Indeed, he was not even told what he had supposedly done wrong. Richard Tyndall is right to be outraged by Sargeant's treatment by Labour. It's a disgrace.
So have a witch hunt against some one else and sack them without proper investigation?
All I am asking for is these incidents to be investigated properly and openly. Maybe that was not done in the Sergeant case. Maybe it is not being done in some of the other stories that have been in the press either.
No investigation is needed. It's bloody obvious that the Sargeant case was handled disgracefully by Jones. He should go.
Mrs May is a disgrace, she should have fired Priti Patel.
Stupid dumb Librarian.
Drag someone half way around the world under a media storm to resign them? Daft. If you're sacking them have the cajones to sack them.
It makes very little difference. The end result is the same.
I think a difference in media portrayal. One is easily portrayed as decisive. The other seems duplicitous.
Perhaps you think Carwyn Jones was decisive?
He is under pressure to resign tonight over the way he dealt with Carl Sargeant
He won't resign....he is man enough to admit he got it wrong and publically apologise...which will be accepted by all but his bitterest enemies. He will probably come out of this stronger than when he went in...unfortunately
It does seem odd that the twittermob is after Jones to resign without investigation as punishment for sacking without investigation.
I would recommend a period of calm quiet reflection.
It was very sad that Carl Sargeants death passed largely without comment.
Men have been ruined by these allegations, and in consequence, their famillies. There are other examples of male suicides in response to #metoo.
Be very careful about cheering this on.
Huh? You think we need to stop cheering, like tell women to just shut up and take it like the old days? It's not that the PBs are old blokes who just don't get it, I think Mr Smithson completely gets it but there is a lot of male resentment below the line.
A man has just taken his life here in North Wales. He was greatly loved by his family and the community. We need to be calm and respectful - and by the way I am a conservative and Carl was a lifelong labour supporter. This is not politics
Indeed, this is something that affects all political organisations and isn’t something to make into a partisan argument. Carl Sargeant and Bex Bailey aren’t from my party, but that doesn’t mean I don’t have huge amounts of sympathy for them. A witch hunt doesn’t help anyone and due process needs to be followed.
Off topic: tales from one of the UK's new small business owners . Me.
I went to my bank to open a business account. While waiting the branch was proudly showing a film saying that it was going to reintroduce...... TA DA! ...... bank managers. Blimey. Just like there used to be. Whatever next? Employees who can count, maybe.
It still took an hour and a lot of faffing mainly because I had to tell them what to do, what all the documents were and where to send them. Plus they did not know how to operate their own photocopying machine so had to get them to do that twice.
I was very tempted to tell them that my new business will consist of training people like them not to behave like fuckwits but thought better of it. For the time being anyway.
It's a wonder sometimes how our financial services sector grew to be as big as it is. Still, from what I hear of German banks they are even less capable than ours at organising a piss up in a brewery. So maybe that's it. Our competitive advantage is that we're not as crap as they are.
There's a marketing slogan: "Not as crap as the other banks."
A bit like the trader at a Dutch bank caught up in one of the many LIBOR scandals who wrote a chat saying: "There are bigger crooks than us out there."
Never mind visions and fancy apps. I'd vote for a bit of boring competence, frankly, in most walks of life.
"Not as crap as the other banks?"
I'd rather go with "Actually rather good, in a tastefully understated way"
If you would like to sell your services to me - or make other useful suggestions (I am not without assets - how's that for understatement?) then I am all ears. I can provide my own tastefulness. Efficiency and competence and honesty (I know, I know - how naive and dreamy can one be) are what I'm after.
I'm switching my business account to Handelsbanken. I don't think that Barclays want ordinary banking clients any more. They want to trade complex products, sell life assurance and PPI to the masses, and launder money for the super-rich.
Mrs May is a disgrace, she should have fired Priti Patel.
Stupid dumb Librarian.
Drag someone half way around the world under a media storm to resign them? Daft. If you're sacking them have the cajones to sack them.
It makes very little difference. The end result is the same.
I think a difference in media portrayal. One is easily portrayed as decisive. The other seems duplicitous.
Perhaps you think Carwyn Jones was decisive?
He is under pressure to resign tonight over the way he dealt with Carl Sargeant
He won't resign....he is man enough to admit he got it wrong and publically apologise...which will be accepted by all but his bitterest enemies. He will probably come out of this stronger than when he went in...unfortunately
It does seem odd that the twittermob is after Jones to resign without investigation as punishment for sacking without investigation.
I would recommend a period of calm quiet reflection.
It was very sad that Carl Sargeants death passed largely without comment.
Men have been ruined by these allegations, and in consequence, their famillies. There are other examples of male suicides in response to #metoo.
Be very careful about cheering this on.
Huh? You think we need to stop cheering, like tell women to just shut up and take it like the old days? It's not that the PBs are old blokes who just don't get it, I think Mr Smithson completely gets it but there is a lot of male resentment below the line.
I've seen a lot of right on cheering on here over the past few days from people that should know better.
It is a mockery of justice and the rule of law that someone can self identify as a "victim" and then accuse someone else of being an "abuser" and then rely on the concept that as a victim they should always be believed. Meanwhile, the "abuser" gets blacklisted and his life (and family) ruined. It not kafkasque, it is just a witchhunt in its most crude and basic sense.
Well said, and the situation you rightly describe as a mockery of justice will not be righted until there is anonymity of accuser and accused. The tragedy of Carl Sargeant should lead to this urgently.
I may well be being a bit mad and part-channelling a Yes Prime Mininster plot.. But is there any way Rory Stewart could be sent to Iran, and be able to bring back the lady in prison? If he somehow could, and he may just have what it takes, he'd come back a hero and surely be a shoo in for next Tory leader/PM..
My suspicion is that Carwyn may well be in a lot of trouble.
Sergeant was a Labour bruiser in the Tom Watson mould. A party man, through and through. I didn’t like him much, but he certainly deserved to know what he had been accused of, and by whom, and be given the chance to clear his name.
If the facts are as reported, Carwyn is in trouble. The Corbynistas want Carwyn out anyhow,
It has been rumoured that Carwyn wants to retire (he has been in charge since 2009). His home in his Bridgend constituency is up for sale. He’s moving out of Bridgend, so I don’t think he was planning to stand again as AM for that constituency !
My guess is that Carwyn will go over this. He’ll either jump or be pushed. I think he’ll jump.
I do wonder if the tragic Sergeant case came about because of an over-reaction. Labour were getting some bad press for allegedly not responding well to previous allegations (including one of rape) and therefore letting down the accusers. Therefore when a new allegation came in they swung to far the other way and let down the accused.
I see the Guardian are really barrel scraping now with the paradise papers...Justin timberlake registered a company in the Bahamas...Outrage...Why...To buy a golf course...Where was the bloody tax dodger buying this golf course...The Bahamas...
Sounds pretty weak indeed for merely a couple of days into a story. I get not every day will be a 'royals are tax dodging scroungers' day, but if not maybe hold out until a a juicy nugget appears.
I may well be being a bit mad and part-channelling a Yes Prime Mininster plot.. But is there any way Rory Stewart could be sent to Iran, and be able to bring back the lady in prison? If he somehow could, and he may just have what it takes, he'd come back a hero and surely be a shoo in for next Tory leader/PM..
Although he better remember to inform the FO and No. 10 about this planned holiday in Iran.
I may well be being a bit mad and part-channelling a Yes Prime Mininster plot.. But is there any way Rory Stewart could be sent to Iran, and be able to bring back the lady in prison? If he somehow could, and he may just have what it takes, he'd come back a hero and surely be a shoo in for next Tory leader/PM..
I’d send Boris to Iran - and tell him not to come back unless he brings the British prisoner back with him!
In order to have a GE this year, the Commons must vote for one between Mon and Wed next week - which would mean a GE on Thur 21 Dec.
Is there really any prospect of this whatsoever?
No
Thanks for the tip the 68 pence I made in the 17 pound I got on will buy 4 nappies for our baby who us about to be born
Congrats on both fronts. There will be at least four occasions in which bladder or bowel empties mid-nappy-change. This ruins the new nappy, and your mood, and occasionally a shirt. When that happens, think back to this post. It happens to us all, and at least you have free replacement nappies.
On topic, I am struggling to think what is more resignation-worthy than a minister running a secret alternative foreign policy, meeting with lobbyists and foreign PMs without the FCO knowing or recording it, accordingly breaking collective cabinet responsibility, getting her department to do work off the back of the meetings, and then BSing the PM about what went on. Frankly it's almost a matter for River House.
I may well be being a bit mad and part-channelling a Yes Prime Mininster plot.. But is there any way Rory Stewart could be sent to Iran, and be able to bring back the lady in prison? If he somehow could, and he may just have what it takes, he'd come back a hero and surely be a shoo in for next Tory leader/PM..
I would guess his experience in Iraq will make him persona non-grata with the Iranians.
Deliberately making binary an issue that is not binary. It is not 'Person A believes any accusation is proof of guilt therefore it doesn't matter how the accused are treated' and 'Person B wants women to shut up and take it like the old days'.
Idiots will be found to occupy both those positions. I would hope we, all being sensible, would see that the fair position is not one of those two, and therefore it would be insulting to suggest, as EPG did, that anyone expressing concern about being people ruined by allegations which have not even been investigated let alone proven, wants women to shut up and take it.
Really? People who express concern at jumping to conclusions, while being absolutely in favour of the guilty being punished (the guilty including those 'merely' getting away with the sort of casual sexist behaviour that would have not drawn comment decades ago), just want women to shut the hell up?
And if one does not intend to tar everyone with that brush, they should be more careful with their language. Tying 'old male resentment' as the reason for any concern, and suggesting that concern equates to wanting women to shut the hell up, is nonsensical.
And of course, for the record, while women I imagine make up most of the victims, we don't want the men who have been treated poorly or, gods forbid, abused, but (probably mostly) men to shut up either.
Exactly. By way of analogy, child abuse is evil. It does not follow that people who may be totally innocent, should have their lives destroyed because allegations of child abuse have been made against them.
I may well be being a bit mad and part-channelling a Yes Prime Mininster plot.. But is there any way Rory Stewart could be sent to Iran, and be able to bring back the lady in prison? If he somehow could, and he may just have what it takes, he'd come back a hero and surely be a shoo in for next Tory leader/PM..
I’d send Boris to Iran - and tell him not to come back unless he brings the British prisoner back with him!
I presume his visa would expire and they'd evict him eventually! After all, why would they do that?
Taking my lesson from the historical documentary 'Angels and Demons', if a no hoper with little experience wishes to take the top job all they have to do is fake a miracle. Or better yet achieve an actual miracle. Political miracles should be easier to achieve.
In order to have a GE this year, the Commons must vote for one between Mon and Wed next week - which would mean a GE on Thur 21 Dec.
Is there really any prospect of this whatsoever?
Good spot Sir. Free money! Unless Mrs May calls an election tomorrow there’s no chance of it being this year.
Not even sure the MPs would vote for the motion if it were put to them next week, going to the polls the week before Christmas would get a massive thumbs down from anyone involved in campaigning - and probably from the wider electorate too!
I think we can safely say Mrs. May has had enough of elections in 2017.....
Mrs May is a disgrace, she should have fired Priti Patel.
Stupid dumb Librarian.
Drag someone half way around the world under a media storm to resign them? Daft. If you're sacking them have the cajones to sack them.
It makes very little difference. The end result is the same.
I think a difference in media portrayal. One is easily portrayed as decisive. The other seems duplicitous.
Perhaps you think Carwyn Jones was decisive?
He is under pressure to resign tonight over the way he dealt with Carl Sargeant
He won't resign....he is man enough to admit he got it wrong and publically apologise...which will be accepted by all but his bitterest enemies. He will probably come out of this stronger than when he went in...unfortunately
It does seem odd that the twittermob is after Jones to resign without investigation as punishment for sacking without investigation.
I would recommend a period of calm quiet reflection.
It was very sad that Carl Sargeants death passed largely without comment.
Men have been ruined by these allegations, and in consequence, their famillies. There are other examples of male suicides in response to #metoo.
Be very careful about cheering this on.
28 doctors kil.
Umm. Carl Sargeant was not given the benefit of a quick and open investigation before he was sacked. Indeed, he was not even told what he had supposedly done wrong. Richard Tyndall is right to be outraged by Sargeant's treatment by Labour. It's a disgrace.
So have a witch hunt against some one else and sack them without proper investigation?
All I am asking for is these incidents to be investigated properly and openly. Maybe that was not done in the Sergeant case. Maybe it is not being done in some of the other stories that have been in the press either.
Unfortunately there are some things where just an accusation is ruinous and any suggestion of a sex crime is just such a thing. So any investigation should be treated very sensitively. The accused must have exactly the same protection as the accuser. The sort of hysterical knee jerk reaction shown by EPG is what happens when natural justice is ignored
Mrs May is a disgrace, she should have fired Priti Patel.
Stupid dumb Librarian.
Drag someone half wnes to sack them.
It makes very little difference. The end result is the same.
I think a difference in media portrayal. One is easily portrayed as decisive. The other seems duplicitous.
Perhaps you think Carwyn Jones was decisive?
Hrgeant
Be very careful about cheering this on.
Hent below the line.
Pretty much this.
Deliberately making binary an issue that is not binary. It is not 'Person A believes any accusation is proof of guilt therefore it doesn't matter how the accused are treated' and 'Person B wants women to shut up and take it like the old days'.
Idiots will be found to occupy both those positions. I would hope we, all being sensible, would see that the fair position is not one of those two, and therefore it would be insulting to suggest, as EPG did, that anyone expressing concern about being people ruined by allegations which have not even been investigated let alone proven, wants women to shut up and take it.
Really? People who express concern at jumping to conclusions, while being absolutely in favour of the guilty being punished (the guilty including those 'merely' getting away with the sort of casual sexist behaviour that would have not drawn comment decades ago), just want women to shut the hell up?
Since this sex scandal began, we’ve had low level harassment allegations on here be dismissed by some as ‘trivial’, the whole scandal characterised as a ‘moral panic’ and assertions that we are about to enter a new age of prudishness. We’ve had more than just individuals express caution over jumping to conclusions. That in and of itself is reasonable. But on here we’ve had narratives that are almost of a ‘men are the real victims here’ ‘women are making a big deal out of nothing’ message.
Sergeant was a Labour bruiser in the Tom Watson mould. A party man, through and through. I didn’t like him much, but he certainly deserved to know what he had been accused of, and by whom, and be given the chance to clear his name.
I agree. I commented at the time he was forced to resign that I didn't think he'd be much missed - his time at LG was to put it mildly a disaster. But he wasn't given due process and he wasn't shown any respect for his own rights, and that's not good enough. As with Elphicke, indeed, although the denouement has not been so tragic.
Jones will go, rightly, over this. But that in itself opens up large cans of worms for Labour. Don't be surprised if what would in other circumstances be a couple of fairly minor allegations about bad behaviour grossly and literally fatally mishandled end by causing some rather seismic political changes.
Mrs May is a disgrace, she should have fired Priti Patel.
Stupid dumb Librarian.
Drag someone half way around the world under a media storm to resign them? Daft. If you're sacking them have the cajones to sack them.
It makes very little difference. The end result is the same.
I think a difference in media portrayal. One is easily portrayed as decisive. The other seems duplicitous.
Perhaps you think Carwyn Jones was decisive?
He is under pressure to resign tonight over the way he dealt with Carl Sargeant
He won't resign....he is man enough to admit he got it wrong and publically apologise...which will be accepted by all but his bitterest enemies. He will probably come out of this stronger than when he went in...unfortunately
It does seem odd that the twittermob is after Jones to resign without investigation as punishment for sacking without investigation.
I would recommend a period of calm quiet reflection.
It was very sad that Carl Sargeants death passed largely without comment.
Men have been ruined by these allegations, and in consequence, their famillies. There are other examples of male suicides in response to #metoo.
Be very careful about cheering this on.
Huh? You think we need to stop cheering, like tell women to just shut up and take it like the old days? It's not that the PBs are old blokes who just don't get it, I think Mr Smithson completely gets it but there is a lot of male resentment below the line.
Pretty much this.
No, not "pretty much this". It would be disgusting if there were posters on here who thought it was right to "tell women to just shut up and take it like the old days" and it's therefore a very serious allegation to make. You should justify it (and I haven't seen a shred of evidence to support the suggestion) or retract it. I am sure you won't, but more to the point: wtf are you doing here if you genuinely think like that about other posters here? Why not go somewhere nicer? I mean, obviously we'll miss you, but...
Mrs May is a disgrace, she should have fired Priti Patel.
Stupid dumb Librarian.
Drag someone half way around the world under a media storm to resign them? Daft. If you're sacking them have the cajones to sack them.
It makes very little difference. The end result is the same.
I think a difference in media portrayal. One is easily portrayed as decisive. The other seems duplicitous.
Perhaps you think Carwyn Jones was decisive?
He is under pressure to resign tonight over the way he dealt with Carl Sargeant
He won't resign....he is man enough to admit he got it wrong and publically apologise...which will be accepted by all but his bitterest enemies. He will probably come out of this stronger than when he went in...unfortunately
It does seem odd that the twittermob is after Jones to resign without investigation as punishment for sacking without investigation.
I would recommend a period of calm quiet reflection.
It was very sad that Carl Sargeants death passed largely without comment.
Men have been ruined by these allegations, and in consequence, their famillies. There are other examples of male suicides in response to #metoo.
Be very careful about cheering this on.
Huh? You think we need to stop cheering, like tell women to just shut up and take it like the old days? It's not that the PBs are old blokes who just don't get it, I think Mr Smithson completely gets it but there is a lot of male resentment below the line.
Since this sex scandal began, we’ve had low level harassment allegations on here be dismissed by some as ‘trivial’, the whole scandal characterised as a ‘moral panic’ and assertions that we are about to enter a new age of prudishness. We’ve had more than just individuals express caution over jumping to conclusions. That in and of itself is reasonable. But on here we’ve had narratives that are almost of a ‘men are the real victims here’ ‘women are making a big deal out of nothing’ message.
We’ve had more than just individuals express caution over jumping to conclusions
That's true. But the answer to people being unreasonable is not to be unreasonable as well.
EPG's point was not confined to merely those people, and in agreeing with it so starkly, whether you intended it or not, you appear to be suggesting just as an extreme position as the ones you are, rightfully, concerned about which dismiss these things far too easily.
The sequence of events:
People debate jumping to conclusions being dangerous EPG responds to that debate by stating that's equivalent to wanting women to shut the hell up and down to old male resentment You state that position is 'pretty much this'
So an issue which was the subject of debate and on the specific point of overreaction, is equated to old resentful men wanting women to shut up.
That seems like an equally big overreaction to me. People cannot discuss whether it is possible an allegation was overreacted to without being old resentful men who want women to shut up?
I don't doubt that is not what you meant. But it appears to be what you said, because EPG said just that, no ifs ands or buts.
Comments
The one way I can see out of this mess - and it would be hilarious - is if Dafydd Elis Thomas became FM with a brief to calm things down for twelve months. He may suddenly have become value.
What were you hoping for? A full-on handbag fight between May and Patel with hair-pulling and screaming spilling out the door of No.10 onto Downing Street?
or google jobcentreplus
*Searches for "Ed Balls"*
I guarantee you that I will not end up having a stroke at 54.
You may have had a different view if you had listened to the Welsh news this evening
https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/9421/12000-expenses-tory-msps-brexit-israel-pact
Men have been ruined by these allegations, and in consequence, their famillies. There are other examples of male suicides in response to #metoo.
Be very careful about cheering this on.
His logic was that they were the only four tasks you needed for time management and three of them involved passing the buck.
File - no further action needed
Bin - waste of time
Pass - not my stuff, give to the correct person
If anything got through those three then he "acted" on it. I adopted the same strategy and it works really well.
I'll get my coat...
A lobbyist on the other hand has no actual skills apart from being in the right place in the right time and knowing the right people. This is actually true of many professional services (I can speak from personal experience). People involved in these industries then convince themselves that they are worth more than everyone else in the economy, but it is all bullshit.
I'd rather go with "Actually rather good, in a tastefully understated way"
No was 1.01, now it's 1.04.
In order to have a GE this year, the Commons must vote for one between Mon and Wed next week - which would mean a GE on Thur 21 Dec.
Is there really any prospect of this whatsoever?
I am extremely angry and saddened at what has happened to Carl Sargeant. Like almost everyone else I have no idea if he was guilty of anything at all. What I do know is that it appears he was abandoned and ostracised by his party and those who should have been there to support him but who could not bring themselves to do so because of the current climate of fear. Even his death seems to have passed without much comment. It doesn't matter what his politics were or what party he belonged to. He deserved better than this.
There are going to be people dragged into this who have either done nothing wrong or were victims of abuse who wish to forget what happened to them. Everyone needs to calm down a little in the reporting of these things, ensure that allegations are appropriately investigated and those who have done wrong are receive an appropriate punishment - while those who are innocent can have their reputations protected.
Maybe we could have polling stations at the end of Tesco checkouts, since that will be where a good % of the population will be most of the time by 21st Dec.
Innocent or guilty, having a life's work disappear, as well as family etc is very traumatic. Indeed for the guilty probably even more traumatic. Both innocent and guilty need support as well as the victims. Too many kill themselves in our judicial system.
A bit of sober due process and a quick and open investigation is the way, but all too often we have twittermob and Kafkaesque trial.
https://twitter.com/sunpolitics/status/928313818115125248
Not even sure the MPs would vote for the motion if it were put to them next week, going to the polls the week before Christmas would get a massive thumbs down from anyone involved in campaigning - and probably from the wider electorate too!
Very surprised that you can even attempt to justify yourself while the anger over Carl Sargeant is so palpable here in North Wales
Please give it a rest
It's not that the PBs are old blokes who just don't get it, I think Mr Smithson completely gets it but there is a lot of male resentment below the line.
I do have some knowledge of this. I knew this doctor:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-206890/Dedicated-doctor-hanged-NHS-witch-hunt.html
Unless of course you are suggesting that the mere act of accusation should be taken as being sufficient evidence to justify hounding a man to his death.
All I am asking for is these incidents to be investigated properly and openly. Maybe that was not done in the Sergeant case. Maybe it is not being done in some of the other stories that have been in the press either.
I hope Mr Sargeants accusers are also getting support and advice. I am sure they did not wish him dead whatever they did. Suicide is an awful thing.
It is a mockery of justice and the rule of law that someone can self identify as a "victim" and then accuse someone else of being an "abuser" and then rely on the concept that as a victim they should always be believed. Meanwhile, the "abuser" gets blacklisted and his life (and family) ruined. It not kafkasque, it is just a witchhunt in its most crude and basic sense.
Idiots will be found to occupy both those positions. I would hope we, all being sensible, would see that the fair position is not one of those two, and therefore it would be insulting to suggest, as EPG did, that anyone expressing concern about being people ruined by allegations which have not even been investigated let alone proven, wants women to shut up and take it.
Really? People who express concern at jumping to conclusions, while being absolutely in favour of the guilty being punished (the guilty including those 'merely' getting away with the sort of casual sexist behaviour that would have not drawn comment decades ago), just want women to shut the hell up?
And if one does not intend to tar everyone with that brush, they should be more careful with their language. Tying 'old male resentment' as the reason for any concern, and suggesting that concern equates to wanting women to shut the hell up, is nonsensical.
And of course, for the record, while women I imagine make up most of the victims, we don't want the men who have been treated poorly or, gods forbid, abused, but (probably mostly) men to shut up either.
And on that note, good night.
Sergeant was a Labour bruiser in the Tom Watson mould. A party man, through and through. I didn’t like him much, but he certainly deserved to know what he had been accused of, and by whom, and be given the chance to clear his name.
If the facts are as reported, Carwyn is in trouble. The Corbynistas want Carwyn out anyhow,
It has been rumoured that Carwyn wants to retire (he has been in charge since 2009). His home in his Bridgend constituency is up for sale. He’s moving out of Bridgend, so I don’t think he was planning to stand again as AM for that constituency !
My guess is that Carwyn will go over this. He’ll either jump or be pushed. I think he’ll jump.
Although he better remember to inform the FO and No. 10 about this planned holiday in Iran.
On topic, I am struggling to think what is more resignation-worthy than a minister running a secret alternative foreign policy, meeting with lobbyists and foreign PMs without the FCO knowing or recording it, accordingly breaking collective cabinet responsibility, getting her department to do work off the back of the meetings, and then BSing the PM about what went on. Frankly it's almost a matter for River House.
Jones will go, rightly, over this. But that in itself opens up large cans of worms for Labour. Don't be surprised if what would in other circumstances be a couple of fairly minor allegations about bad behaviour grossly and literally fatally mishandled end by causing some rather seismic political changes.
We still have no idea what the purpose was.
So, scenario:
Patel to FO: I want to go to the Golan Heights and talk with the IDF about funding some of their activities.
FO: You can't go. Lots of reasons etc etc
Patel: FU - I'll go on my holidays when nobody knows what I am up to.
It does not add up in my book, unless I have missed something today.
http://www.golanwines.co.il/english
That's true. But the answer to people being unreasonable is not to be unreasonable as well.
EPG's point was not confined to merely those people, and in agreeing with it so starkly, whether you intended it or not, you appear to be suggesting just as an extreme position as the ones you are, rightfully, concerned about which dismiss these things far too easily.
The sequence of events:
People debate jumping to conclusions being dangerous
EPG responds to that debate by stating that's equivalent to wanting women to shut the hell up and down to old male resentment
You state that position is 'pretty much this'
So an issue which was the subject of debate and on the specific point of overreaction, is equated to old resentful men wanting women to shut up.
That seems like an equally big overreaction to me. People cannot discuss whether it is possible an allegation was overreacted to without being old resentful men who want women to shut up?
I don't doubt that is not what you meant. But it appears to be what you said, because EPG said just that, no ifs ands or buts.