politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Picking up the pieces. Disintegrating Europe
Comments
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Irish border is an issue, for EU, Ireland and us.surbiton said:
I think Brexiters have not grasped a simple reality. If Britain wants to stay out of the customs union [ that being the UK's current position ] , there will have to be a customs border between Ireland and Northern Ireland [ unless there was a FTA between the UK and the EU ].Richard_Tyndall said:
It wouldn't work for two reasons. Firstly because it would do huge damage to NI economy and secondly because the Unionists would never accept it. No matter how much you might like the idea it is a non starter.surbiton said:
There is a simple solution and agreeable to all sides. Northern Ireland becomes part of the customs union. Ironically, exactly what Scotland proposed for themselves. It is legal and it will not affect Brexit.Richard_Nabavi said:This looks an important article:
After all, both NI and Scotland did vote to Remain. So this would be soft-Remain. I would like London to also be part of the EU customs union.
The rest of Britain can do whatever it likes.
The Irish are aware of this. The Unionists can go and jump in the Sea if they don't like it. There will have to be a customs border in Ireland otherwise Britain will be in the WTO tribunal in no time.
The only other case is as I mentioned elsewhere, NI being in the customs union. I don't know which is more unpalatable: customs border between Ireland and N Ireland OR the Irish Sea [ like the channel and the North Sea ] becomes the customs border.
I have not read any paper which contradicts the above.
We will not have NI with a different deal to the rest of the UK. They will not be in a customs union and us out.
EU have an inflexible position and no idea how to reconcile the needs of the continuing EU member state of Ireland with the realities of Brexit.
Ireland is between a rock and a hard place without much input.
Ultimately, if they care for the well being of the sate of Ireland, the EU will have to concede a massive lump of ground. The only acceptable solution for Ireland is a continuation of the status quo.
That requires the EU agree a FTA with UK without the UK having the commitment to freedom of movement, which is a red line.
Either that, or the Irish are stuffed by the EU. The EU may try to extract money for the agreement, or they may throw another member onto the scrap heap. Those are the only realistic choices thy have.
It is the EU that is in the negotiating cleft stick on this issue.
No agreement on this will result in a very Irish solution, which is to carry on regardless.0 -
That is a very good point.YBarddCwsc said:That is because your culture is global.
Most people who belong to a dominant culture (like Anglo-Americans) believe that nationalism is over-rated.0 -
Haha, I assume "Tories said it was the only way to end Brexit" is, sadly, a truncated quote... or are they desperately looking for a way out of this clusterf*ck?Scott_P said:0 -
I am applying for irish citizenship with regret as i identify as british , primarily.Benpointer said:
I agree, it was a good question from Big_G, althoguh for me, it's not so much about the passport as the rights I have being an EU citizen... FoM across the EU for one. I think of an EU passport as evidencing those rights.viewcode said:
Do you know, that's a legitimate question! Pause. That's quite rare for PB.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Genuine question - what is an EU passport when the EU is not a statesurbiton said:
I think a passport is simply a means of identifying an individual to passport control that would be accepted by that control. So you can't rock up with, say, a Monopoly passport. I think statehood is not necessary for that to work, but I'm happy to be contradicted.
But i have an eu wife and dual national child and post brexit there is no certainty we can even stay together as a family.
I would sooner renounce my citizenship than allow my family to be broken up.
These are very difficult and personal decisions.0 -
We could certainly deport a lot of pensioners in that case. That would solve a lot of our current problemsRobD said:
So people in the UK that don't pay taxes aren't citizens in your eyes?Benpointer said:
I think the US have the right line on this one. Taxes are the membership fee for citizenship; if you want to remain a UK citizen you should pay UK taxes.RobD said:
Not sure why you should have to pay UK taxes if you don't live in the UK at all.Benpointer said:
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Boris really is trying hard to be sacked, isn't he?0
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The problem is that it usually leads to 'our nation is better than yours' thinking. And it's a short step from there to nationalism in the 1930s sense.Casino_Royale said:
Nationalism is a shop-soiled word.YBarddCwsc said:
That is because your culture is global.Benpointer said:
Just to be clear the "I have zero interest in any other citizenship than British myself." quote was Casino, not me. I'd quite happily be a citizen of another EU country as well as the UK but have no grounds to be.viewcode said:
Weirdly, I find myself in a similar position. I think I could get Irish citizenship at a push via various relatives and there is a large contingent of the family who live away from their several countries of birth, but I don't have the switch in my head that would enable loyalty to two states and I think I would genuinely struggle with the concept. I know there are regular PB posters with dual nationalities (or non-UK passports who nevertheless think of themselves as British) but I don't think I have the flexibility with facts to enable such a stance.Benpointer said:I have zero interest in any other citizenship than British myself.
Nationalism is over-rated.
Most people who belong to a dominant culture (like Anglo-Americans) believe that nationalism is over-rated.
I believe to mean a world of nation states, but it's been coloured in the modern age to mean being a bit Hitlery.0 -
The opposite of nationalism is trans national loyalty, and these are perhaps why nationalisms are so resurgent as a reactionary movement.YBarddCwsc said:
That is because your culture is global.Benpointer said:
Just to be clear the "I have zero interest in any other citizenship than British myself." quote was Casino, not me. I'd quite happily be a citizen of another EU country as well as the UK but have no grounds to be.viewcode said:
Weirdly, I find myself in a similar position. I think I could get Irish citizenship at a push via various relatives and there is a large contingent of the family who live away from their several countries of birth, but I don't have the switch in my head that would enable loyalty to two states and I think I would genuinely struggle with the concept. I know there are regular PB posters with dual nationalities (or non-UK passports who nevertheless think of themselves as British) but I don't think I have the flexibility with facts to enable such a stance.Benpointer said:I have zero interest in any other citizenship than British myself.
Nationalism is over-rated.
Most people who belong to a dominant culture (like Anglo-Americans) believe that nationalism is over-rated.
For example 17% of people in Catalonia are of non Iberian origin, fairly evenly: Lattin American, Other European and african. Inevitably these retain links of language, culture and religion with their old lands. Add non-Catalan Spanish to that.
Then there are those, like me, of native ethnicity but feeling affinity with my migrant co-workers, and having lived in America, Australia and New Zealand, affinity with these too. I am part of an international profession, an international Church and an international political philosophy. I have a British passport, but it does not define me. I would be equally happy with an EU one. A passport is merely a travel document.
I see no need to suffer excessively on the altar of Brexit nationalism.
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She should promote him to be the main interlocutor of the EU27 national governments.Richard_Nabavi said:Boris really is trying hard to be sacked, isn't he?
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By saying he would refuse to leave?Richard_Nabavi said:Boris really is trying hard to be sacked, isn't he?
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My belief is that trans-nationalism reduces democracy and gives more power to the elite. Countries are generally bound by cultural and linguistic ties with commonly shared ideas of democracy and governmental accountability. National elections are the embodiment of these shared values. I do not believe (and of course this is just personal opinion) that it is possible to have such democratic accountability without the nation state.foxinsoxuk said:
The opposite of nationalism is trans national loyalty, and these are perhaps why nationalisms are so resurgent as a reactionary movement.YBarddCwsc said:
That is because your culture is global.Benpointer said:
Just to be clear the "I have zero interest in any other citizenship than British myself." quote was Casino, not me. I'd quite happily be a citizen of another EU country as well as the UK but have no grounds to be.viewcode said:
Weirdly, I find myself in a similar position. I think I could get Irish citizenship at a push via various relatives and there is a large contingent of the family who live away from their several countries of birth, but I don't have the switch in my head that would enable loyalty to two states and I think I would genuinely struggle with the concept. I know there are regular PB posters with dual nationalities (or non-UK passports who nevertheless think of themselves as British) but I don't think I have the flexibility with facts to enable such a stance.Benpointer said:I have zero interest in any other citizenship than British myself.
Nationalism is over-rated.
Most people who belong to a dominant culture (like Anglo-Americans) believe that nationalism is over-rated.
For example 17% of people in Catalonia are of non Iberian origin, fairly evenly: Lattin American, Other European and african. Inevitably these retain links of language, culture and religion with their old lands. Add non-Catalan Spanish to that.
Then there are those, like me, of native ethnicity but feeling affinity with my migrant co-workers, and having lived in America, Australia and New Zealand, affinity with these too. I am part of an international profession, an international Church and an international political philosophy. I have a British passport, but it does not define me. I would be equally happy with an EU one. A passport is merely a travel document.
I see no need to suffer excessively on the altar of Brexit nationalism.0 -
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On the surface we agree about very little Ben but I would happily buy you a pint some time.Benpointer said:
It probably does Casino; each trying; but probably failing, to understand the other.Casino_Royale said:
For you, perhaps. For me, it's the core part of my identity, not a commodity.Benpointer said:
Just to be clear the "I have zero interest in any other citizenship than British myself." quote was Casino, not me. I'd quite happily be a citizen of another EU country as well as the UK but have no grounds to be.viewcode said:
Weirdly, I find myself in a similar position. I think I could get Irish citizenship at a push via various relatives and there is a large contingent of the family who live away from their several countries of birth, but I don't have the switch in my head that would enable loyalty to two states and I think I would genuinely struggle with the concept. I know there are regular PB posters with dual nationalities (or non-UK passports who nevertheless think of themselves as British) but I don't think I have the flexibility with facts to enable such a stance.Benpointer said:I have zero interest in any other citizenship than British myself.
Nationalism is over-rated.
Which might explain why we were on opposite sides of the argument.
However, we'd no doubt get on fine over a few beers0 -
The Irish, being Irish, will do what they have been doing for a long time, ignore any laws which inconvenience themselves. There can be border posts and electronic monitoring of vehicle movement, and if the British Military and the Garda couldn't seal the border during the troubles, the UK government, the Dail, Stormont and Brussels can get stuffed. Brussels will demand the only effective border will be the Irish Sea, which in effect will be the cause of the Unification of Ireland. I can't see the DUP being happy with that.Richard_Tyndall said:
Yes there can be a customs border but it does not have to be a physical border. Norway and Sweden are on separate sides of a Customs Union and they do very well with an electronic border. What the WTO is interested in is that there is no preference to one country in terms of trade. How that is assured is not something that bothers the WTO as long as it works.surbiton said:
I think Brexiters have not grasped a simple reality. If Britain wants to stay out of the customs union [ that being the UK's current position ] , there will have to be a customs border between Ireland and Northern Ireland [ unless there was a FTA between the UK and the EU ].
The Irish are aware of this. The Unionists can go and jump in the Sea if they don't like it. There will have to be a customs border in Ireland otherwise Britain will be in the WTO tribunal in no time.
The only other case is as I mentioned elsewhere, NI being in the customs union. I don't know which is more unpalatable: customs border between Ireland and N Ireland OR the Irish Sea [ like the channel and the North Sea ] becomes the customs border.
I have not read any paper which contradicts the above.
Of course the Eurofanatics like you will look for problems where none need exist because of your desperation to scupper Brexit or, if that doesn't happen. to make sure it is as painful as possible. Tough. Solutions will be found and you will be left whistling in the wind.0 -
Anyone who spends in the UK pays taxes (VAT).RobD said:
So people in the UK that don't pay taxes aren't citizens in your eyes?Benpointer said:
I think the US have the right line on this one. Taxes are the membership fee for citizenship; if you want to remain a UK citizen you should pay UK taxes.RobD said:
Not sure why you should have to pay UK taxes if you don't live in the UK at all.Benpointer said:
But I admit my wording was poor. I should have said "if you want to remain a UK citizen you should be subject to UK taxes and tax policy." If your earnings are below the personal allowance you won't pay income tax but you are still subject to the UK tax regime.
If you live abroad but wish to remain a UK citizen you should be subject to UK taxes. The US approach of allowing taxes paid locally as a deduction is fair and appropriate.0 -
And I'd happily drink it!Richard_Tyndall said:
On the surface we agree about very little Ben but I would happily buy you a pint some time.Benpointer said:
It probably does Casino; each trying; but probably failing, to understand the other.Casino_Royale said:
For you, perhaps. For me, it's the core part of my identity, not a commodity.Benpointer said:
Just to be clear the "I have zero interest in any other citizenship than British myself." quote was Casino, not me. I'd quite happily be a citizen of another EU country as well as the UK but have no grounds to be.viewcode said:
Weirdly, I find myself in a similar position. I think I could get Irish citizenship at a push via various relatives and there is a large contingent of the family who live away from their several countries of birth, but I don't have the switch in my head that would enable loyalty to two states and I think I would genuinely struggle with the concept. I know there are regular PB posters with dual nationalities (or non-UK passports who nevertheless think of themselves as British) but I don't think I have the flexibility with facts to enable such a stance.Benpointer said:I have zero interest in any other citizenship than British myself.
Nationalism is over-rated.
Which might explain why we were on opposite sides of the argument.
However, we'd no doubt get on fine over a few beers
(Oh and yes, buy the next round of course!)0 -
Scott_P said:
Shouldn't be hard to find - plenty of candidates in the Tory ranks!0 -
And if we run out of those, the Labour front bench has a further supply, even better qualified in terms of detachment from reality.Benpointer said:0 -
Oh, indeed.Benpointer said:
It probably does Casino; each trying; but probably failing, to understand the other.Casino_Royale said:
For you, perhaps. For me, it's the core part of my identity, not a commodity.Benpointer said:
Just to be clear the "I have zero interest in any other citizenship than British myself." quote was Casino, not me. I'd quite happily be a citizen of another EU country as well as the UK but have no grounds to be.viewcode said:
Weirdly, I find myself in a similar position. I think I could get Irish citizenship at a push via various relatives and there is a large contingent of the family who live away from their several countries of birth, but I don't have the switch in my head that would enable loyalty to two states and I think I would genuinely struggle with the concept. I know there are regular PB posters with dual nationalities (or non-UK passports who nevertheless think of themselves as British) but I don't think I have the flexibility with facts to enable such a stance.Benpointer said:I have zero interest in any other citizenship than British myself.
Nationalism is over-rated.
Which might explain why we were on opposite sides of the argument.
However, we'd no doubt get on fine over a few beers0 -
That puts our squabbling on PB into perspective! I hope it works out ok for you and your family.nielh said:
I am applying for irish citizenship with regret as i identify as british , primarily.Benpointer said:
I agree, it was a good question from Big_G, althoguh for me, it's not so much about the passport as the rights I have being an EU citizen... FoM across the EU for one. I think of an EU passport as evidencing those rights.viewcode said:
Do you know, that's a legitimate question! Pause. That's quite rare for PB.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Genuine question - what is an EU passport when the EU is not a statesurbiton said:
I think a passport is simply a means of identifying an individual to passport control that would be accepted by that control. So you can't rock up with, say, a Monopoly passport. I think statehood is not necessary for that to work, but I'm happy to be contradicted.
But i have an eu wife and dual national child and post brexit there is no certainty we can even stay together as a family.
I would sooner renounce my citizenship than allow my family to be broken up.
These are very difficult and personal decisions.0 -
Here's the first job application - https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/oct/08/brexit-treasury-eu-bernard-jenkinBenpointer said:0 -
I don't think so.Benpointer said:
The problem is that it usually leads to 'our nation is better than yours' thinking. And it's a short step from there to nationalism in the 1930s sense.Casino_Royale said:
Nationalism is a shop-soiled word.YBarddCwsc said:
That is because your culture is global.Benpointer said:
Just to be clear the "I have zero interest in any other citizenship than British myself." quote was Casino, not me. I'd quite happily be a citizen of another EU country as well as the UK but have no grounds to be.viewcode said:
Weirdly, I find myself in a similar position. I think I could get Irish citizenship at a push via various relatives and there is a large contingent of the family who live away from their several countries of birth, but I don't have the switch in my head that would enable loyalty to two states and I think I would genuinely struggle with the concept. I know there are regular PB posters with dual nationalities (or non-UK passports who nevertheless think of themselves as British) but I don't think I have the flexibility with facts to enable such a stance.Benpointer said:I have zero interest in any other citizenship than British myself.
Nationalism is over-rated.
Most people who belong to a dominant culture (like Anglo-Americans) believe that nationalism is over-rated.
I believe to mean a world of nation states, but it's been coloured in the modern age to mean being a bit Hitlery.0 -
I think Theresa would have well over 100 to choose from before she ran out.Richard_Nabavi said:
And if we run out of those, the Labour front bench has a further supply, even better qualified in terms of detachment from reality.Benpointer said:
Then again, she's pinching everything else from Labour, so why not pinch a chancellor too?0 -
I have an EU wife (dual citizen) too.nielh said:
I am applying for irish citizenship with regret as i identify as british , primarily.Benpointer said:
I agree, it was a good question from Big_G, althoguh for me, it's not so much about the passport as the rights I have being an EU citizen... FoM across the EU for one. I think of an EU passport as evidencing those rights.viewcode said:
Do you know, that's a legitimate question! Pause. That's quite rare for PB.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Genuine question - what is an EU passport when the EU is not a statesurbiton said:
I think a passport is simply a means of identifying an individual to passport control that would be accepted by that control. So you can't rock up with, say, a Monopoly passport. I think statehood is not necessary for that to work, but I'm happy to be contradicted.
But i have an eu wife and dual national child and post brexit there is no certainty we can even stay together as a family.
I would sooner renounce my citizenship than allow my family to be broken up.
These are very difficult and personal decisions.
I really wouldn't worry. We're not.
The British passport is one of the most prized in the world, and for good reason.0 -
Right, I'm off - it's past my bedtime.
I sense I am very close to convincing all you PB Tories to vote Labour next time, and all you PB Leavers to campaign to overturn Brexit!
... or maybe not. 0 -
Actually the US allows its citzens living overseas to deduct ~$100k of earned income before deducting foreign taxes paid so the vast majority of Americans overseas don’t ever owe the IRS a bean from their normal income. It’s US CGT from house sales that can be an issue, as Boris found out.Benpointer said:
Anyone who spends in the UK pays taxes (VAT).RobD said:
So people in the UK that don't pay taxes aren't citizens in your eyes?Benpointer said:
I think the US have the right line on this one. Taxes are the membership fee for citizenship; if you want to remain a UK citizen you should pay UK taxes.RobD said:
Not sure why you should have to pay UK taxes if you don't live in the UK at all.Benpointer said:
But I admit my wording was poor. I should have said "if you want to remain a UK citizen you should be subject to UK taxes and tax policy." If your earnings are below the personal allowance you won't pay income tax but you are still subject to the UK tax regime.
If you live abroad but wish to remain a UK citizen you should be subject to UK taxes. The US approach of allowing taxes paid locally as a deduction is fair and appropriate.0 -
Trans national loyalties preceded the modern nation state, and will out live it. At one time these were religious (Catholicism required obedience to an international order) later these were political (notably Communism in the twentieth century). Now I would regard them as cultural in other ways. The boundaries of nations are broken both by mass immigration and emigration, but also by global communications. This site is a virtual discussion, but often with several continents participating.Richard_Tyndall said:
My belief is that trans-nationalism reduces democracy and gives more power to the elite. Countries are generally bound by cultural and linguistic ties with commonly shared ideas of democracy and governmental accountability. National elections are the embodiment of these shared values. I do not believe (and of course this is just personal opinion) that it is possible to have such democratic accountability without the nation state.foxinsoxuk said:
The opposite of nationalism is trans national loyalty, and these are perhaps why nationalisms are so resurgent as a reactionary movement.YBarddCwsc said:
That is because your culture is global.Benpointer said:
Just to be clear the "I have zero interest in any other citizenship than British myself." quote was Casino, not me. I'd quite happily be a citizen of another EU country as well as the UK but have no grounds to be.viewcode said:
Weirdly, I find myself in a similar position. I think I could get Irish citizenship at a push via various relatives and there is a large contingent of the family who live away from their several countries of birth, but I don't have the switch in my head that would enable loyalty to two states and I think I would genuinely struggle with the concept. I know there are regular PB posters with dual nationalities (or non-UK passports who nevertheless think of themselves as British) but I don't think I have the flexibility with facts to enable such a stance.Benpointer said:I have zero interest in any other citizenship than British myself.
Nationalism is over-rated.
Most people who belong to a dominant culture (like Anglo-Americans) believe that nationalism is over-rated.
I see no need to suffer excessively on the altar of Brexit nationalism.
I do not find any real difference between our UK democracy and the European one. Each as some accountability to me at the ballot and each differs from my own ideas as to how things should be done. I find that I have more in common politically with the Social Democracy of Europe than with my own MP.0 -
Is that really the case ?YBarddCwsc said:
That is because your culture is global.Benpointer said:
Just to be clear the "I have zero interest in any other citizenship than British myself." quote was Casino, not me. I'd quite happily be a citizen of another EU country as well as the UK but have no grounds to be.viewcode said:
Weirdly, I find myself in a similar position. I think I could get Irish citizenship at a push via various relatives and there is a large contingent of the family who live away from their several countries of birth, but I don't have the switch in my head that would enable loyalty to two states and I think I would genuinely struggle with the concept. I know there are regular PB posters with dual nationalities (or non-UK passports who nevertheless think of themselves as British) but I don't think I have the flexibility with facts to enable such a stance.Benpointer said:I have zero interest in any other citizenship than British myself.
Nationalism is over-rated.
Most people who belong to a dominant culture (like Anglo-Americans) believe that nationalism is over-rated.
Are most Americans indifferent to the idea of US exceptionalism ? Do the Chinese have no national pride ? Your assesrtion seems plain wrong.
There is perhaps an inverse correlation between education and nationalism. But only perhaps.
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Not sure he's brave. The chances of these people attacking him in some way are tiny given he's from such an alien environment to them. Also he's obviously surrounded by a production team.Richard_Tyndall said:
His almost suicidal bravery when dealing with some of the nastiest and most unpredictable people on earth never ceases to amaze me. I think he is an amazing journalist of a type that are few and far between today.foxinsoxuk said:Louis Theroux's new documentary on heroin in Huntington WV is well worth catching. Powerful stuff from one of the reddest of red states.
https://twitter.com/BBCTwo/status/9171287337182781440 -
Arguments over the Irish Border do seem to be a fuss about very little.Richard_Tyndall said:
Yes there can be a customs border but it does not have to be a physical border. Norway and Sweden are on separate sides of a Customs Union and they do very well with an electronic border. What the WTO is interested in is that there is no preference to one country in terms of trade. How that is assured is not something that bothers the WTO as long as it works.surbiton said:
I think Brexiters have not grasped a simple reality. If Britain wants to stay out of the customs union [ that being the UK's current position ] , there will have to be a customs border between Ireland and Northern Ireland [ unless there was a FTA between the UK and the EU ].
The Irish are aware of this. The Unionists can go and jump in the Sea if they don't like it. There will have to be a customs border in Ireland otherwise Britain will be in the WTO tribunal in no time.
The only other case is as I mentioned elsewhere, NI being in the customs union. I don't know which is more unpalatable: customs border between Ireland and N Ireland OR the Irish Sea [ like the channel and the North Sea ] becomes the customs border.
I have not read any paper which contradicts the above.
Of course the Eurofanatics like you will look for problems where none need exist because of your desperation to scupper Brexit or, if that doesn't happen. to make sure it is as painful as possible. Tough. Solutions will be found and you will be left whistling in the wind.0 -
The good reason being we are members of the EU...Casino_Royale said:The British passport is one of the most prized in the world, and for good reason.
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Trans-national loyalties did indeed precede the nation state and I think you will find they were not noted for their democratic tendencies. My thesis is that nation states - or perhaps the city states of ancient Greece - are an integral part of the reason we have developed democracy. A population that shares the same values, culture and language is necessary for democracy to work.foxinsoxuk said:
Trans national loyalties preceded the modern nation state, and will out live it. At one time these were religious (Catholicism required obedience to an international order) later these were political (notably Communism in the twentieth century). Now I would regard them as cultural in other ways. The boundaries of nations are broken both by mass immigration and emigration, but also by global communications. This site is a virtual discussion, but often with several continents participating.
I do not find any real difference between our UK democracy and the European one. Each as some accountability to me at the ballot and each differs from my own ideas as to how things should be done. I find that I have more in common politically with the Social Democracy of Europe than with my own MP.
That does not mean that a nations state should be exclusive. It should be open to new people arriving and becoming part of the nation as long as they understand and appreciate the existing basis of the culture. It does not even mean they may not change the culture with time. That has happened a huge amount in the UK and is why I am happy with migration. But the contract should be that any change is slow and by agreement (tacit or explicit) of the majority.
As I said I have seen no evidence that democracy can survive in a trans-national world, at least not in the for we understand it.0 -
LOL. No.Scott_P said:
The good reason being we are members of the EU...Casino_Royale said:The British passport is one of the most prized in the world, and for good reason.
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I am not sure that was the case when he was interviewing the US Nazis nor Eugène Terre'Blanche. There was genuine sense that they could turn at any minute and his questioning was quite extraordinarily blunt.AndyJS said:
Not sure he's brave. The chances of these people attacking him in some way are tiny given he's from such an alien environment to them. Also he's obviously surrounded by a production team.Richard_Tyndall said:
His almost suicidal bravery when dealing with some of the nastiest and most unpredictable people on earth never ceases to amaze me. I think he is an amazing journalist of a type that are few and far between today.foxinsoxuk said:Louis Theroux's new documentary on heroin in Huntington WV is well worth catching. Powerful stuff from one of the reddest of red states.
https://twitter.com/BBCTwo/status/9171287337182781440 -
Here's a thought for Theresa. Switch Boris and Hammond over. Let Phil go round the world boring people in the best tradition of FO diplomacy. Give Boris summat to do where he has get his hands dirty and be responsible for his actions with a deadline of the Autumn Statement. Some actual work to do. See how he copes.
Just an idea.0 -
Really? So if you don’t pay taxes you shouldn’t have citizenship? A bit tough on poor people, no?Benpointer said:
I think the US have the right line on this one. Taxes are the membership fee for citizenship; if you want to remain a UK citizen you should pay UK taxes.RobD said:
Not sure why you should have to pay UK taxes if you don't live in the UK at all.Benpointer said:
Taxes are not an entry fee for citzenship. They are what you pay in return for the services provided by government. If you don’t live in a state why should you pay taxes to it?0 -
You do not need to give up your British nationality in order to gain Irish citizenship. I have both. So, the best of both worlds. Good luck to you.Benpointer said:
That puts our squabbling on PB into perspective! I hope it works out ok for you and your family.nielh said:
I am applying for irish citizenship with regret as i identify as british , primarily.Benpointer said:
I agree, it was a good question from Big_G, althoguh for me, it's not so much about the passport as the rights I have being an EU citizen... FoM across the EU for one. I think of an EU passport as evidencing those rights.viewcode said:
Do you know, that's a legitimate question! Pause. That's quite rare for PB.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Genuine question - what is an EU passport when the EU is not a statesurbiton said:
I think a passport is simply a means of identifying an individual to passport control that would be accepted by that control. So you can't rock up with, say, a Monopoly passport. I think statehood is not necessary for that to work, but I'm happy to be contradicted.
But i have an eu wife and dual national child and post brexit there is no certainty we can even stay together as a family.
I would sooner renounce my citizenship than allow my family to be broken up.
These are very difficult and personal decisions.0 -
I think that increasingly as a population we do not share the same values, culture and language (even when we communicate in English). I think the same is true of the US, hence its culture wars.Richard_Tyndall said:
Trans-national loyalties did indeed precede the nation state and I think you will find they were not noted for their democratic tendencies. My thesis is that nation states - or perhaps the city states of ancient Greece - are an integral part of the reason we have developed democracy. A population that shares the same values, culture and language is necessary for democracy to work.foxinsoxuk said:
Trans national loyalties preceded the modern nation state, and will out live it. At one time these were religious (Catholicism required obedience to an international order) later these were political (notably Communism in the twentieth century). Now I would regard them as cultural in other ways. The boundaries of nations are broken both by mass immigration and emigration, but also by global communications. This site is a virtual discussion, but often with several continents participating.
I do not find any real difference between our UK democracy and the European one. Each as some accountability to me at the ballot and each differs from my own ideas as to how things should be done. I find that I have more in common politically with the Social Democracy of Europe than with my own MP.
Brexit impacts directly on these things, whether we are Remainders or Leavers. Some may like that cultural change, some (including me) will not.
Hence why I feel more affinity with my European friends whose values I share than my countrymen whose values I do not.
I have a lot of ties that bind me to this country in terms of family and possessions, but those ties are weakening and not unbreakable.0 -
McDonald's Rick and Morty Szechuan sauce stunt backfires
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41543636
Goes to trump tweet generating machine....SAAAAD.0 -
I know. Im just making the point that brexit is creating problems for people in lots of ways. In my case it means becoming a dual national. My wife also may become a naturalised brit / dual national if the rules on how she does this are cleared up. This is all only possible due to luck.Cyclefree said:
You do not need to give up your British nationality in order to gain Irish citizenship. I have both. So, the best of both worlds. Good luck to you.Benpointer said:
That puts our squabbling on PB into perspective! I hope it works out ok for you and your family.nielh said:
I am applying for irish citizenship with regret as i identify as british , primarily.Benpointer said:
I agree, it was a good question from Big_G, althoguh for me, it's not so much about the passport as the rights I have being an EU citizen... FoM across the EU for one. I think of an EU passport as evidencing those rights.viewcode said:
Do you know, that's a legitimate question! Pause. That's quite rare for PB.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Genuine question - what is an EU passport when the EU is not a statesurbiton said:
I think a passport is simply a means of identifying an individual to passport control that would be accepted by that control. So you can't rock up with, say, a Monopoly passport. I think statehood is not necessary for that to work, but I'm happy to be contradicted.
But i have an eu wife and dual national child and post brexit there is no certainty we can even stay together as a family.
I would sooner renounce my citizenship than allow my family to be broken up.
These are very difficult and personal decisions.
Its going to cost us around 3k to sort this all out, just to have the same rights that we had prior to june 2016.
0 -
You have still not answered the basic point that trans-nationalism reduces democratic accountability and the basic working of democracy. Indeed the examples you gave make my point for me.foxinsoxuk said:
I think that increasingly as a population we do not share the same values, culture and language (even when we communicate in English). I think the same is true of the US, hence its culture wars.Richard_Tyndall said:
Trans-national loyalties did indeed precede the nation state and I think you will find they were not noted for their democratic tendencies. My thesis is that nation states - or perhaps the city states of ancient Greece - are an integral part of the reason we have developed democracy. A population that shares the same values, culture and language is necessary for democracy to work.foxinsoxuk said:
Trans national loyalties preceded the modern nation state, and will out live it. At one time these were religious (Catholicism required obedience to an international order) later these were political (notably Communism in the twentieth century). Now I would regard them as cultural in other ways. The boundaries of nations are broken both by mass immigration and emigration, but also by global communications. This site is a virtual discussion, but often with several continents participating.
I do not find any real difference between our UK democracy and the European one. Each as some accountability to me at the ballot and each differs from my own ideas as to how things should be done. I find that I have more in common politically with the Social Democracy of Europe than with my own MP.
Brexit impacts directly on these things, whether we are Remainders or Leavers. Some may like that cultural change, some (including me) will not.
Hence why I feel more affinity with my European friends whose values I share than my countrymen whose values I do not.
I have a lot of ties that bind me to this country in terms of family and possessions, but those ties are weakening and not unbreakable.0 -
The British don't even give me a vote. I don't mind paying my fair share of taxes and I do pay them here in Japan, but if the British they want me to file tax returns too then I'll switch to a less embarassing nationalityBenpointer said:
I think the US have the right line on this one. Taxes are the membership fee for citizenship; if you want to remain a UK citizen you should pay UK taxes.RobD said:
Not sure why you should have to pay UK taxes if you don't live in the UK at all.Benpointer said:0 -
Do you have any Norwegian or Swiss or Russian or Serbian or Ukrainian or Icelandic friends. I merely ask as you seem to regard them as not being 'European' as they aren't EU citizens - as will presumably be the case for your fellow country people post Brexit.foxinsoxuk said:
I think that increasingly as a population we do not share the same values, culture and language (even when we communicate in English). I think the same is true of the US, hence its culture wars.Richard_Tyndall said:
Trans-national loyalties did indeed precede the nation state and I think you will find they were not noted for their democratic tendencies. My thesis is that nation states - or perhaps the city states of ancient Greece - are an integral part of the reason we have developed democracy. A population that shares the same values, culture and language is necessary for democracy to work.foxinsoxuk said:
Trans national loyalties preceded the modern nation state, and will out live it. At one time these were religious (Catholicism required obedience to an international order) later these were political (notably Communism in the twentieth century). Now I would regard them as cultural in other ways. The boundaries of nations are broken both by mass immigration and emigration, but also by global communications. This site is a virtual discussion, but often with several continents participating.
I do not find any real difference between our UK democracy and the European one. Each as some accountability to me at the ballot and each differs from my own ideas as to how things should be done. I find that I have more in common politically with the Social Democracy of Europe than with my own MP.
Brexit impacts directly on these things, whether we are Remainders or Leavers. Some may like that cultural change, some (including me) will not.
Hence why I feel more affinity with my European friends whose values I share than my countrymen whose values I do not.
I have a lot of ties that bind me to this country in terms of family and possessions, but those ties are weakening and not unbreakable.
It seems to me you don't actually regard yourself as ''European' so much as being part of some sort of superior 'liberal minded' elite looking down on the poor ignorant ill informed 'lower order' inferiors who don't vote the right way or think the right way. Those latter types could as easily be French or Italian as British. And the former you attach yourself to could equally be Canadian or American.
Brits are European today and will still be on 30 March 2019. The EU is just a political construct covering less than half the European landmass. It's not the definition of European - any more than the Warsaw Pact was.
0 -
Like the Japanese. They have never done anything to be embarrassed about.....edmundintokyo said:
The British don't even give me a vote. I don't mind paying my fair share of taxes and I do pay them here in Japan, but if the British they want me to file tax returns too then I'll switch to a less embarassing nationalityBenpointer said:
I think the US have the right line on this one. Taxes are the membership fee for citizenship; if you want to remain a UK citizen you should pay UK taxes.RobD said:
Not sure why you should have to pay UK taxes if you don't live in the UK at all.Benpointer said:0 -
A new term for the political mavens - all the rage in Beltway Bandit gossip circles: Rexit.0
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Doesn't Rexit require them to have a king first?MTimT said:A new term for the political mavens - all the rage in Beltway Bandit gossip circles: Rexit.
0 -
Given we are discussing nationality and passports perhaps we should just follow the example of the Irish passport and pretend the border doesn't exist.Sean_F said:
Arguments over the Irish Border do seem to be a fuss about very little.Richard_Tyndall said:
Yes there can be a customs border but it does not have to be a physical border. Norway and Sweden are on separate sides of a Customs Union and they do very well with an electronic border. What the WTO is interested in is that there is no preference to one country in terms of trade. How that is assured is not something that bothers the WTO as long as it works.surbiton said:
I think Brexiters have not grasped a simple reality. If Britain wants to stay out of the customs union [ that being the UK's current position ] , there will have to be a customs border between Ireland and Northern Ireland [ unless there was a FTA between the UK and the EU ].
The Irish are aware of this. The Unionists can go and jump in the Sea if they don't like it. There will have to be a customs border in Ireland otherwise Britain will be in the WTO tribunal in no time.
The only other case is as I mentioned elsewhere, NI being in the customs union. I don't know which is more unpalatable: customs border between Ireland and N Ireland OR the Irish Sea [ like the channel and the North Sea ] becomes the customs border.
I have not read any paper which contradicts the above.
Of course the Eurofanatics like you will look for problems where none need exist because of your desperation to scupper Brexit or, if that doesn't happen. to make sure it is as painful as possible. Tough. Solutions will be found and you will be left whistling in the wind.
It would be interesting to find out if any DUP MPs have Irish passports or are planning to apply for them post Brexit. Under the Irish constitution and as stated in its passport being an Irish citizen is Arlene Foster's birthright!
Also if you marry an Irish citizen you can apply for Irish citizenship by naturalisation providing you have spent at least 12 months living on the island of Ireland - even if that entire time was spent living in the UK. You need never have set foot in the Republic at all.
0 -
Well, not for a while. OK, there's refugee policy and police treatment of suspects. But they don't trigger the routine "sorry for tour loss" mentally-ill-relative-burned-the-house-down vibe you get when you mention you're British post-Brexit.MarqueeMark said:
Like the Japanese. They have never done anything to be embarrassed about.....edmundintokyo said:
The British don't even give me a vote. I don't mind paying my fair share of taxes and I do pay them here in Japan, but if the British they want me to file tax returns too then I'll switch to a less embarassing nationalityBenpointer said:
I think the US have the right line on this one. Taxes are the membership fee for citizenship; if you want to remain a UK citizen you should pay UK taxes.RobD said:
Not sure why you should have to pay UK taxes if you don't live in the UK at all.Benpointer said:0 -
Not surprised to see tory guns being aimed at hammond.
As I've suggested repeatedly over the last few weeks, the budget is a key event that could bring things to a head.
Assuming he;s still in place in six weeks, I think it's very unlikely it won't get ripped apart.0 -
His only politically viable option is to fund everything from borrowing, which his own side will hate.Pong said:Not surprised to see tory guns being aimed at hammond.
As I've suggested repeatedly over the last few weeks, the budget is a key event that could bring things to a head.
Assuming he;s still in place in six weeks, I think it's very unlikely it won't get ripped apart.
Magic Money Tree.0 -
Indeed, and it's the chancellor's job to be realistic, while to the Brexiteers reality itself is the enemy.Pong said:Not surprised to see tory guns being aimed at hammond.
As I've suggested repeatedly over the last few weeks, the budget is a key event that could bring things to a head.
Assuming he;s still in place in six weeks, I think it's very unlikely it won't get ripped apart.0 -
"Politics is obsessed with virtue signalling
Matt Ridley
From the climate accord to badger culling, we increasingly judge policies by intentions rather than achievements"
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/politics-is-obsessed-with-virtue-signalling-06qm8wpz90 -
Sure. The chancellors job is basically impossible.MJW said:
Indeed, and it's the chancellor's job to be realistic, while to the Brexiteers reality itself is the enemy.Pong said:Not surprised to see tory guns being aimed at hammond.
As I've suggested repeatedly over the last few weeks, the budget is a key event that could bring things to a head.
Assuming he;s still in place in six weeks, I think it's very unlikely it won't get ripped apart.
Fiscal conservatism cannot be reconciled with brexit.0 -
Reports are that he will consider it a failure if he leaves before a year is out, and hence he'll put up with the shit for the interim, albeit with pushback.rcs1000 said:
I'm staggered he's still there tbh. He can't do his job because his boss overrules him on Twitter. And he's called his boss a "fucking moron" (apparently).MTimT said:A new term for the political mavens - all the rage in Beltway Bandit gossip circles: Rexit.
That, and the rumored pact between Kelly, Mattis, McMaster and he to stay or go as a unit is the only way to make sense of this. Certainly, it would be very damaging to Trump at this point to lose one of those four - to lose all four in one go would be staggering.0 -
This thread appears to deal (badly) with potential movement of goods across a border. The Border is also required to deal with the movement of people, and that does appear to be important to many who voted for Brexit. Where will the Border be for control of immigration.brendan16 said:
Given we are discussing nationality and passports perhaps we should just follow the example of the Irish passport and pretend the border doesn't exist.Sean_F said:
Arguments over the Irish Border do seem to be a fuss about very little.Richard_Tyndall said:
Yes there can be a customs border but it does not have to be a physical border. Norway and Sweden are on separate sides of a Customs Union and they do very well with an electronic border. What the WTO is interested in is that there is no preference to one country in terms of trade. How that is assured is not something that bothers the WTO as long as it works.surbiton said:
I think Brexiters have not grasped a simple reality. If Britain wants to stay out of the customs union [ that being the UK's current position ] , there will have to be a customs border between Ireland and Northern Ireland [ unless there was a FTA between the UK and the EU ].
The Irish are aware of this. The Unionists can go and jump in the Sea if they don't like it. There will have to be a customs border in Ireland otherwise Britain will be in the WTO tribunal in no time.
The only other case is as I mentioned elsewhere, NI being in the customs union. I don't know which is more unpalatable: customs border between Ireland and N Ireland OR the Irish Sea [ like the channel and the North Sea ] becomes the customs border.
I have not read any paper which contradicts the above.
Of course the Eurofanatics like you will look for problems where none need exist because of your desperation to scupper Brexit or, if that doesn't happen. to make sure it is as painful as possible. Tough. Solutions will be found and you will be left whistling in the wind.
It would be interesting to find out if any DUP MPs have Irish passports or are planning to apply for them post Brexit. Under the Irish constitution and as stated in its passport being an Irish citizen is Arlene Foster's birthright!
Also if you marry an Irish citizen you can apply for Irish citizenship by naturalisation providing you have spent at least 12 months living on the island of Ireland - even if that entire time was spent living in the UK. You need never have set foot in the Republic at all.
I don't think Stranraer or Heathrow will be acceptable to Arlene.0 -
Hammond was building himself some fiscal elbow room. Unfortunately, it's gone:MJW said:
Indeed, and it's the chancellor's job to be realistic, while to the Brexiteers reality itself is the enemy.Pong said:Not surprised to see tory guns being aimed at hammond.
As I've suggested repeatedly over the last few weeks, the budget is a key event that could bring things to a head.
Assuming he;s still in place in six weeks, I think it's very unlikely it won't get ripped apart.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/10/05/hammonds-budget-cupboard-almost-bare-treasury-document-reveals/
0 -
I don't think the tories will hate a borrow and spend budget as it will be politically popular. All sense of financial rectitude went down the shitter with Brexit anyway so they might as well go for it.Pong said:
His only politically viable option is to fund everything from borrowing, which his own side will hate.Pong said:Not surprised to see tory guns being aimed at hammond.
As I've suggested repeatedly over the last few weeks, the budget is a key event that could bring things to a head.
Assuming he;s still in place in six weeks, I think it's very unlikely it won't get ripped apart.
Magic Money Tree.0 -
I suppose the problem is - there aren't many civil servants with any ideas. Perhaps a scheme for secondment to private industry for a year or two might be useful.0
-
Amusing how Corbyn is in power, but with none of the responsibilities of office.Dura_Ace said:
I don't think the tories will hate a borrow and spend budget as it will be politically popular. All sense of financial rectitude went down the shitter with Brexit anyway so they might as well go for it.Pong said:
His only politically viable option is to fund everything from borrowing, which his own side will hate.Pong said:Not surprised to see tory guns being aimed at hammond.
As I've suggested repeatedly over the last few weeks, the budget is a key event that could bring things to a head.
Assuming he;s still in place in six weeks, I think it's very unlikely it won't get ripped apart.
Magic Money Tree.
The labour left are winning the war.0 -
How about borrowing to invest? There are a huge number of projects the UK government could invest in which will deliver a return on that investment. A "Borrow and Invest" plan used to be called capitalism. Before the Tories and their loon friends in the city decided anything borrowed was communism...Dura_Ace said:
I don't think the tories will hate a borrow and spend budget as it will be politically popular. All sense of financial rectitude went down the shitter with Brexit anyway so they might as well go for it.Pong said:
His only politically viable option is to fund everything from borrowing, which his own side will hate.Pong said:Not surprised to see tory guns being aimed at hammond.
As I've suggested repeatedly over the last few weeks, the budget is a key event that could bring things to a head.
Assuming he;s still in place in six weeks, I think it's very unlikely it won't get ripped apart.
Magic Money Tree.0 -
With respect its not the EU that has a problem. The EU has rules on its external border, rules which the UK have moaned are not strong enough. Now that the UK is leaving the EU, our complaint has shifted that the external border rules are too strong - you can see why the EU are exasperated by this. They have to have and will have a hard external border. If the UK leaves both the EEA and CU that means one on the Island of Ireland. ROI is clearly affected, but the EU cannot allow a soft back door here no more than it can allow one in eastern Europe.philiph said:
Irish border is an issue, for EU, Ireland and us.
We will not have NI with a different deal to the rest of the UK. They will not be in a customs union and us out.
EU have an inflexible position and no idea how to reconcile the needs of the continuing EU member state of Ireland with the realities of Brexit.
Ireland is between a rock and a hard place without much input.
Ultimately, if they care for the well being of the sate of Ireland, the EU will have to concede a massive lump of ground. The only acceptable solution for Ireland is a continuation of the status quo.
That requires the EU agree a FTA with UK without the UK having the commitment to freedom of movement, which is a red line.
Either that, or the Irish are stuffed by the EU. The EU may try to extract money for the agreement, or they may throw another member onto the scrap heap. Those are the only realistic choices thy have.
It is the EU that is in the negotiating cleft stick on this issue.
No agreement on this will result in a very Irish solution, which is to carry on regardless.
And that makes it our problem. We have to maintain the integrity of the UK - that means no customs checks in the Irish Sea for traffic between GB and NI. But we also have to maintain the integrity of the CTA. Its ultimately a question back to us. Which is more valuable. A "no deal" trading arrangement which not only creates huge cost and complexity for us but also leaves the door open to renewed civil unrest in NI? Or our sulking child posture where we want out of everything yet expect full and unimpeded access once we've left?0 -
+1RochdalePioneers said:
With respect its not the EU that has a problem. The EU has rules on its external border, rules which the UK have moaned are not strong enough. Now that the UK is leaving the EU, our complaint has shifted that the external border rules are too strong - you can see why the EU are exasperated by this. They have to have and will have a hard external border. If the UK leaves both the EEA and CU that means one on the Island of Ireland. ROI is clearly affected, but the EU cannot allow a soft back door here no more than it can allow one in eastern Europe.philiph said:
Irish border is an issue, for EU, Ireland and us.
We will not have NI with a different deal to the rest of the UK. They will not be in a customs union and us out.
EU have an inflexible position and no idea how to reconcile the needs of the continuing EU member state of Ireland with the realities of Brexit.
Ireland is between a rock and a hard place without much input.
Ultimately, if they care for the well being of the sate of Ireland, the EU will have to concede a massive lump of ground. The only acceptable solution for Ireland is a continuation of the status quo.
That requires the EU agree a FTA with UK without the UK having the commitment to freedom of movement, which is a red line.
Either that, or the Irish are stuffed by the EU. The EU may try to extract money for the agreement, or they may throw another member onto the scrap heap. Those are the only realistic choices thy have.
It is the EU that is in the negotiating cleft stick on this issue.
No agreement on this will result in a very Irish solution, which is to carry on regardless.
And that makes it our problem. We have to maintain the integrity of the UK - that means no customs checks in the Irish Sea for traffic between GB and NI. But we also have to maintain the integrity of the CTA. Its ultimately a question back to us. Which is more valuable. A "no deal" trading arrangement which not only creates huge cost and complexity for us but also leaves the door open to renewed civil unrest in NI? Or our sulking child posture where we want out of everything yet expect full and unimpeded access once we've left?0 -
Please name some.RochdalePioneers said:
How about borrowing to invest? There are a huge number of projects the UK government could invest in which will deliver a return on that investment. A "Borrow and Invest" plan used to be called capitalism. Before the Tories and their loon friends in the city decided anything borrowed was communism...Dura_Ace said:
I don't think the tories will hate a borrow and spend budget as it will be politically popular. All sense of financial rectitude went down the shitter with Brexit anyway so they might as well go for it.Pong said:
His only politically viable option is to fund everything from borrowing, which his own side will hate.Pong said:Not surprised to see tory guns being aimed at hammond.
As I've suggested repeatedly over the last few weeks, the budget is a key event that could bring things to a head.
Assuming he;s still in place in six weeks, I think it's very unlikely it won't get ripped apart.
Magic Money Tree.
Naturally you will take into account the crowding out effect and the impact on overall government borrowing costs0 -
We don't "have" to maintain the CTA - a hard border will cause dislocation (to the extent it is effectively enforced), but (IIRC) over 75% of NI GDP is derived from the UK state anyway.RochdalePioneers said:
With respect its not the EU that has a problem. The EU has rules on its external border, rules which the UK have moaned are not strong enough. Now that the UK is leaving the EU, our complaint has shifted that the external border rules are too strong - you can see why the EU are exasperated by this. They have to have and will have a hard external border. If the UK leaves both the EEA and CU that means one on the Island of Ireland. ROI is clearly affected, but the EU cannot allow a soft back door here no more than it can allow one in eastern Europe.philiph said:
Irish border is an issue, for EU, Ireland and us.
We will not have NI with a different deal to the rest of the UK. They will not be in a customs union and us out.
EU have an inflexible position and no idea how to reconcile the needs of the continuing EU member state of Ireland with the realities of Brexit.
Ireland is between a rock and a hard place without much input.
Ultimately, if they care for the well being of the sate of Ireland, the EU will have to concede a massive lump of ground. The only acceptable solution for Ireland is a continuation of the status quo.
That requires the EU agree a FTA with UK without the UK having the commitment to freedom of movement, which is a red line.
Either that, or the Irish are stuffed by the EU. The EU may try to extract money for the agreement, or they may throw another member onto the scrap heap. Those are the only realistic choices thy have.
It is the EU that is in the negotiating cleft stick on this issue.
No agreement on this will result in a very Irish solution, which is to carry on regardless.
And that makes it our problem. We have to maintain the integrity of the UK - that means no customs checks in the Irish Sea for traffic between GB and NI. But we also have to maintain the integrity of the CTA. Its ultimately a question back to us. Which is more valuable. A "no deal" trading arrangement which not only creates huge cost and complexity for us but also leaves the door open to renewed civil unrest in NI? Or our sulking child posture where we want out of everything yet expect full and unimpeded access once we've left?
The key point is that there will be a very significant difference between the costs/impact on Eire vs the EU as a whole. They need to figure out a way to compensate Eire for their lack of flexibility - or to demonstrate, once again, that they are happy to throw a member under the bus in the interests of the Project0 -
RochdalePioneers - absolutely agree. Why the government doesn't announce quick to start good news projects once a week is beyond me. The MOD and the RAF are running around to boost sales of the A400M, and the MOD and RN are helping to sell ships too (perhaps a government guarantee of performance for the Type 26 might help in Australia and Canada). But the rest of the government seems to be lost. The EU and its rules have been used to explain nothing can be done - but the real problem has been the attitude of the civil service.0
-
Roads - a large number of projects to remove bottlenecks and improve physical links. Railways - forget HS2, Network Rail needs to put significant investment in to keep up with demand. Fibre Broadband - the impacts on our economy of this rolling out on a large scale... And thats to say nothing of our need for affordable housing, schools, hospitals, power generation, water etc etc that the private sector cannot and will not provide for.Charles said:
Please name some.RochdalePioneers said:
How about borrowing to invest? There are a huge number of projects the UK government could invest in which will deliver a return on that investment. A "Borrow and Invest" plan used to be called capitalism. Before the Tories and their loon friends in the city decided anything borrowed was communism...Dura_Ace said:
I don't think the tories will hate a borrow and spend budget as it will be politically popular. All sense of financial rectitude went down the shitter with Brexit anyway so they might as well go for it.Pong said:
His only politically viable option is to fund everything from borrowing, which his own side will hate.Pong said:Not surprised to see tory guns being aimed at hammond.
As I've suggested repeatedly over the last few weeks, the budget is a key event that could bring things to a head.
Assuming he;s still in place in six weeks, I think it's very unlikely it won't get ripped apart.
Magic Money Tree.
Naturally you will take into account the crowding out effect and the impact on overall government borrowing costs
How fascinating that you appear to displaying the very behaviours I was highlighting. And if you don't want the government investing how about compelling the private sector? Part of our problem at the moment is a private sector unwilling to invest in capacity or skills or pay taxes...0 -
Housing in particular.Charles said:
Please name some.RochdalePioneers said:
How about borrowing to invest? There are a huge number of projects the UK government could invest in which will deliver a return on that investment. A "Borrow and Invest" plan used to be called capitalism. Before the Tories and their loon friends in the city decided anything borrowed was communism...Dura_Ace said:
I don't think the tories will hate a borrow and spend budget as it will be politically popular. All sense of financial rectitude went down the shitter with Brexit anyway so they might as well go for it.Pong said:
His only politically viable option is to fund everything from borrowing, which his own side will hate.Pong said:Not surprised to see tory guns being aimed at hammond.
As I've suggested repeatedly over the last few weeks, the budget is a key event that could bring things to a head.
Assuming he;s still in place in six weeks, I think it's very unlikely it won't get ripped apart.
Magic Money Tree.
Naturally you will take into account the crowding out effect and the impact on overall government borrowing costs
Not as though the private sector is meeting demand - and at the rates government borrow, this ought to be a profitable investment, so no impact on borrowing costs.
0 -
Well, they are doing a fucking great job. There hasn't been an A400M order for 12 years! (Malaysia)PAW said:The MOD and the RAF are running around to boost sales of the A400M
Canada are still salty over the disaster of the Upholder class deal. It'll be a sunny day in Nova Scotia before they buy British again.
T26 has an outside chance for SEA5000 I suppose but it's an uphill battle against Navantia/FREMM.
None of those are exactly 'good news'.0 -
You need to distinguish between investment and Brownian 'investment' - but I tend to agree with the general argument.RochdalePioneers said:
Roads - a large number of projects to remove bottlenecks and improve physical links. Railways - forget HS2, Network Rail needs to put significant investment in to keep up with demand. Fibre Broadband - the impacts on our economy of this rolling out on a large scale... And thats to say nothing of our need for affordable housing, schools, hospitals, power generation, water etc etc that the private sector cannot and will not provide for.Charles said:
Please name some.RochdalePioneers said:
How about borrowing to invest? There are a huge number of projects the UK government could invest in which will deliver a return on that investment. A "Borrow and Invest" plan used to be called capitalism. Before the Tories and their loon friends in the city decided anything borrowed was communism...Dura_Ace said:
I don't think the tories will hate a borrow and spend budget as it will be politically popular. All sense of financial rectitude went down the shitter with Brexit anyway so they might as well go for it.Pong said:
His only politically viable option is to fund everything from borrowing, which his own side will hate.Pong said:Not surprised to see tory guns being aimed at hammond.
As I've suggested repeatedly over the last few weeks, the budget is a key event that could bring things to a head.
Assuming he;s still in place in six weeks, I think it's very unlikely it won't get ripped apart.
Magic Money Tree.
Naturally you will take into account the crowding out effect and the impact on overall government borrowing costs
How fascinating that you appear to displaying the very behaviours I was highlighting. And if you don't want the government investing how about compelling the private sector? Part of our problem at the moment is a private sector unwilling to invest in capacity or skills or pay taxes...
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Charles - start NHS own brand manufacturing for any staples not made in the UK. I am thinking of £7/oz for barrier creams (Amazon pricing for Cavilon), pads, etc. Why doesn't the NHS make this drug "Shortly before Retrophin fired Shkreli, Retrophin raised the price of Thiola from $1.50 to $30 per pill; patients must take 10 to 15 pills a day. Retrophin did not lower the price after Shkreli's departure" if it has a need?0
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Gunning for the chancellor? I think the Brexit camp is finally beginning to crack.0
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Dura - "A total of 174 A400M aircraft had been ordered by eight nations by July 2011". "In January 2017, Indonesia approved the acquisition of five A400Ms to boost the country's military airlift capabilities and modernise the air force."0
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" forget HS2, Network Rail needs to put significant investment in to keep up with demand."RochdalePioneers said:
Roads - a large number of projects to remove bottlenecks and improve physical links. Railways - forget HS2, Network Rail needs to put significant investment in to keep up with demand. Fibre Broadband - the impacts on our economy of this rolling out on a large scale... And thats to say nothing of our need for affordable housing, schools, hospitals, power generation, water etc etc that the private sector cannot and will not provide for.Charles said:
Please name some.RochdalePioneers said:
How about borrowing to invest? There are a huge number of projects the UK government could invest in which will deliver a return on that investment. A "Borrow and Invest" plan used to be called capitalism. Before the Tories and their loon friends in the city decided anything borrowed was communism...Dura_Ace said:
I don't think the tories will hate a borrow and spend budget as it will be politically popular. All sense of financial rectitude went down the shitter with Brexit anyway so they might as well go for it.Pong said:
His only politically viable option is to fund everything from borrowing, which his own side will hate.Pong said:Not surprised to see tory guns being aimed at hammond.
As I've suggested repeatedly over the last few weeks, the budget is a key event that could bring things to a head.
Assuming he;s still in place in six weeks, I think it's very unlikely it won't get ripped apart.
Magic Money Tree.
Naturally you will take into account the crowding out effect and the impact on overall government borrowing costs
How fascinating that you appear to displaying the very behaviours I was highlighting. And if you don't want the government investing how about compelling the private sector? Part of our problem at the moment is a private sector unwilling to invest in capacity or skills or pay taxes...
What is HS2, except for investing to keep up with demand?
On that note, 'demand' actually decreased in the last quarter:
http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0006/25719/passenger-rail-usage-2017-18-q1.pdf
Although the decline is in southeast commuter regions, where the Southern debacle is not helping. Long-distance demand is solid.0 -
This Matt Ridley?AndyJS said:"Politics is obsessed with virtue signalling
Matt Ridley
From the climate accord to badger culling, we increasingly judge policies by intentions rather than achievements"
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/politics-is-obsessed-with-virtue-signalling-06qm8wpz9
"Matt Ridley is a powerhouse of climate denial in Britain. The self-styled 'Rational Optimist' is an advisor to Lord Nigel Lawson’s secretly funded charity, the Global Warming Policy Foundation (GWPF), and acts as a one-man think tank to his brother-in-law, the sacked environment secretary Owen Paterson. Ridley writes frequently in the Wall Street Journal and The Times promoting fossil fuels while at the same time earning considerable wealth from coal mining.
At the beginning of 2015, the landed aristocrat started work on two new profitable opencast coal mines. These are situated close to his Grade I listed stately home and acres of beautiful national park that make up his 8,500-acre estate which the White-Ridley family has owned in Northumbria since 1700. The peer’s Blagdon Estate, held by a family trust, today covers a significant part of the open mines at Shotton and Brenkley Lane, north of Newcastle, which together contain 8.3m tonnes of coal, worth an estimated £336m on the spot market."
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Wrong (idiot).Scott_P said:
The good reason being we are members of the EU...Casino_Royale said:The British passport is one of the most prized in the world, and for good reason.
There are c.190 countries in the world. A British passport gives you visa-free and flexible access to most of them.
You need to end your obsession with the EU.0 -
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