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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The inter-generational gap: The Pinch and the Punch

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  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    DavidL said:

    You think their students, and all their high paying international students in particular, don't find being in London a significant part of the attraction?

    Well, its a view.
    You think Princeton is not a nice place? You think it can't attract international students?

    Think again, my friend.
  • Moment of silence please....

    Let's Make a Deal game show host Monty Hall dies at 96
    http://news.sky.com/story/lets-make-a-deal-game-show-host-monty-hall-dies-at-96-11062485
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,095
    Heseltine says after the German election a deal could be done with the EU on immigration making Brexit unnecessary and helping the Tories win back younger voters
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,601
    HYUFD said:

    Heseltine says after the German election a deal could be done with the EU on immigration making Brexit unnecessary and helping the Tories win back younger voters

    He was saying only just the other day they no longer care about anything we do or that we are leaving, why would they now care about making a deal?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,189
    HYUFD said:

    Heseltine claims he was a 'loyal supporter of Mrs Thatcher' until he left the cabinet while Boris is undermining her within it

    He is aware that Maggie is not actually in charge any more, yes?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,095
    edited October 2017
    kle4 said:

    Well indeed - another reason the heavy handedness is unnecessary.
    What all these independence needs is more devolved powers as Canada ultimately gave Quebec and Brown promised in 2014 in 'the vow'.

    Repression just makes it worse
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,483
    Mr. HYUFD, hmm.

    Hmm.

    Hmm.

    I think Heseltine's pro-EU optimism may have clouded his judgement a shade.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,189

    You think Princeton is not a nice place? You think it can't attract international students?

    Think again, my friend.
    I'm sure Princeton is a lovely place, as is St Andrews, but then, sadly, I am not 18 anymore.
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469
    Not really keeping up with Spanish politics. Are the government leftwing commies or the remnants of the right wing Franco fascists?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,103
    HYUFD said:

    Tell that to Ken Livingstone
    He was streets ahead of Boris, and that is saying something
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,095

    Yes, I think the reason universities haven't done this - and probably won't in future (despite market logic suggesting they should) is because most academics still support the ideal of a university with a broad curriculum that embraces all fields of knowledge.
    All very well but not all courses have the same graduate earning premium, someone studying Medicine, Engineering or Economics will earn significantly more post graduation than someone studying English, History or Art.

    Ironically if fees for humanities subjects remain too high that will reduce demand and numbers for them more than if they were cut
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    DavidL

    I think it often comes as a surprise to international students who have enrolled at Royal Holloway, University of London, to find that they are not actually in London! However, given that it is such a beautiful campus, and the fact there is a train to London every half hour, they usually come to accept it.
  • OchEye said:

    Not really keeping up with Spanish politics. Are the government leftwing commies or the remnants of the right wing Franco fascists?
    Franco Fascists.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,095
    Looks like Boris has won the Luntz focus group from Sunday Politics clips but we will see shortly
  • DavidL said:

    You think their students, and all their high paying international students in particular, don't find being in London a significant part of the attraction?

    Well, its a view.
    Some would and some wouldn't. There's no shortage of students, including high paying international students, in cities and towns all over the UK.

    If the options are UCL Bloomsbury at £9k pa or UCL Peterborough at £6k pa which would students chose ?

    Perhaps the universities in London, Oxford and Cambridge should open outstation colleges in towns which are cheap but still have good communications.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,095

    Mr. HYUFD, hmm.

    Hmm.

    Hmm.

    I think Heseltine's pro-EU optimism may have clouded his judgement a shade.

    Just a tad
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,095
    DavidL said:

    He is aware that Maggie is not actually in charge any more, yes?
    I think he meant May in relation to Boris
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,095
    edited October 2017
    kle4 said:

    He was saying only just the other day they no longer care about anything we do or that we are leaving, why would they now care about making a deal?
    Due to rising right-wing anti immigration populism on the continent in his view
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,307
    You might think that, but Mason (and others) couldn't possibly comment.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,945

    To develop this further, you can have a world-class University in a town or village (Princeton in New Jersey is an example).

    There is no need for Imperial College, UCL and Queen Mary to be in London.

    They should all move out.

    The land they own in Kensington, Bloomsbury & Mile End is worth a fortune. They could all move out, build new campuses elsewhere and make money in the process.

    They could invigorate small towns that desperately need influxes of new people. And the housing costs of their staff & student would be hugely reduced.

    Not to mention LSE with numerous 7 and 8 storey blocks just off Aldwych.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,103
    DavidL said:

    Nothing palatial about this Malcolm. It's a glorified Betts Box from the early 90s. But house prices are not the problem in Scotland outside the posher parts of Edinburgh. The problem is not enough people earning sufficient to build up deposits and pay the mortgage. At the moment house builders could build plenty more houses on already approved sites if the demand was there.
    David, I was joking so hopefully did not upset you in any way. No Betts on west coast but they built good houses. We certainly don't appreciate how lucky we are, given location etc yet we get houses for a fraction of the prices down south and none of the overcrowding and packed roads to put up with
  • The irony is that at least some of those voters, particularly the (literally) bleeding pensioners, are likely to have been No voters.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,535
    edited October 2017
    Just a point on unis in cheaper towns. Places like Warwick (not in Warwick, a field on the outskirts of coventry), Exeter and Loughborough are all newish unis and consistent ranked in top 10-15 unis in the country and extremely popular. It is how well ranked, facilities and earning potential that makes so oversubscribed.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,601
    HYUFD said:

    Due to rising right-wing anti immigration populism on the continent in his view
    Rising from last week when he was saying how they don't care about whether we stay or go anymore?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,189
    HYUFD said:

    I think he meant May in relation to Boris
    With Hezza you can never be entirely certain.
  • ' Fee repayment thresholds will also rise, so graduates will start paying back loans once they earn £25,000, rather than £21,000, the PM said. '

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41456555

    Will we seen editorials in the London Evening Standard denouncing this increase ?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,483
    F1: counter-intuitive, but Vandoorne has now scored more points than Alonso.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,103
    edited October 2017
    OchEye said:

    Not really keeping up with Spanish politics. Are the government leftwing commies or the remnants of the right wing Franco fascists?
    Think it is the Franco way, usually right wing that use para military units to rough up the public
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,670
    edited October 2017

    Not at the moment. But if rent controls smash the rate they can charge in places like London...
    Then there will be far less investment in Housing, and ultimately we will be to the squalid situation before the 1988 Housing Act where tenants refuse eg upgraded kitchens and bathrooms and double glazing and safety improvements because that will be one of the exceptions allowing an increase.

    Further rental investment will be choked off because that kind of rent control kills value - an "Assured Tenancy" (ie protected) as opposed to an Assured Shorthold Tenancy reduces the value of a property by anything between 30% and 70%. That is to the extent that there is a long term speculative market in buying houses with Assured Tenancies with the price and reward based on the expected death of the tenant, when the value will soar. Single tenant in their 80s with no living relatives = more valuable house.

    And you end up with a 2 tier market for people with inside / privileged connections or not.

    See, for example, New York.

    And if they go for the "rent rises up to inflation" option (see various places in Europe), then that may actually be an opportunity for rents to rise more quickly because UK private rents have been rising behind inflation for decades.
  • OchEye said:

    Not really keeping up with Spanish politics. Are the government leftwing commies or the remnants of the right wing Franco fascists?
    Madrid government = Partido Popular = right wing conservatives. PP spend a lot of time denying that they're the heirs to Franco; draw your own conclusions.
  • malcolmg said:

    David, I was joking so hopefully did not upset you in any way. No Betts on west coast but they built good houses. We certainly don't appreciate how lucky we are, given location etc yet we get houses for a fraction of the prices down south and none of the overcrowding and packed roads to put up with
    When I was working I used to get upset if there was a car in front of me on the way to the Office!!!!
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,189
    malcolmg said:

    David, I was joking so hopefully did not upset you in any way. No Betts on west coast but they built good houses. We certainly don't appreciate how lucky we are, given location etc yet we get houses for a fraction of the prices down south and none of the overcrowding and packed roads to put up with
    No offence taken Malcolm, none at all. Its just we (and most of England north of Luton) have very different but very real housing problems.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,307
    Has the case for on-line voting hardened in Catalonia?
  • The irony is that at least some of those voters, particularly the (literally) bleeding pensioners, are likely to have been No voters.
    Absolutely but now they will be yes in a big way
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    To develop this further, you can have a world-class University in a town or village (Princeton in New Jersey is an example).

    There is no need for Imperial College, UCL and Queen Mary to be in London.

    They should all move out.

    The land they own in Kensington, Bloomsbury & Mile End is worth a fortune. They could all move out, build new campuses elsewhere and make money in the process.

    They could invigorate small towns that desperately need influxes of new people. And the housing costs of their staff & student would be hugely reduced.

    That's an interesting idea -although TBF, UCL is doing just that with it's gradual move to Stratford

    You do need to consider economic clustering. For example, my School (in Bloomsbury) considered relocating outside of Central London but decided the synergies from being close to the Crick and the Wellcome Trust (principally the ability to attract to ranked professors) outweighed the costs
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,103

    When I was working I used to get upset if there was a car in front of me on the way to the Office!!!!
    G , I spent time living in Hemel Hempstead are and also Hampshire and traffic was horrific, not worth going out on holidays/weekends. Here I can go anywhere , get ferries , clear roads etc any time.
    Only busy if you go into Glasgow at commuting times, which I never do nowadays.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,189
    dr_spyn said:

    Has the case for on-line voting hardened in Catalonia?

    Spain closed down the website as well.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Pulpstar said:

    Pbhouses.com xD

    No comment
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,103

    When I was working I used to get upset if there was a car in front of me on the way to the Office!!!!
    Was it the guy with the flag walking in front that upset you, make your horse fidget.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,177
    As we are on the subject, me and my girlfriend have just purchased a 3 bedroom new-build on the outskirts of Newcastle upon Tyne. £220k. Cant wait for it to be built!
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,189
    calum said:
    What article 7 actually says:

    1. On a reasoned proposal by one third of the Member States, by the European Parliament or by the European Commission, the Council, acting by a majority of four fifths of its members after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament, may determine that there is a clear risk of a serious breach by a Member State of the values referred to in Article 2. Before making such a determination, the Council shall hear the Member State in question and may address recommendations to it, acting in accordance with the same procedure. The Council shall regularly verify that the grounds on which such a determination was made continue to apply.

    2. The European Council, acting by unanimity on a proposal by one third of the Member States or by the European Commission and after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament, may determine the existence of a serious and persistent breach by a Member State of the values referred to in Article 2 after inviting the Member State in question to submit its observations.

    3. Where a determination under paragraph 2 has been made, the Council, acting by a qualified majority, may decide to suspend certain of the rights deriving from the application of the Treaties to the Member State in question, including the voting rights of the representative of the government of that Member State in the Council. In doing so, the Council shall take into account the possible consequences of such a suspension on the rights and obligations of natural and legal persons.

    The obligations of the Member State in question under the Treaties shall in any case continue to be binding on that State.

    4. The Council, acting by a qualified majority, may decide subsequently to vary or revoke measures taken under paragraph 3 in response to changes in the situation which led to their being imposed.

    5. The voting arrangements applying to the European Parliament, the European Council and the Council for the purposes of this Article are laid down in Article 354of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.

  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,670
    edited October 2017
    Someone said:


    You think students prefer to be paying a fortune to live in a hovel ? You think academic staff like to have a long commute to Bloomsbury or Kensington ?

    St Albans to UCL seems to be a commute of well under an hour :-)

    Do these Metropolitans even know that they are born?

    Perhaps that helps explain why we have a chorus of complaints about investment outside London, whilst a strange chorus of silence about the £10s of billions thrown at eg Cross Rail.

    (I hope I have my blockquotes right)
  • malcolmg said:

    Was it the guy with the flag walking in front that upset you, make your horse fidget.
    Good one but the one and only time I have been on a horse it lasted less than 30 seconds as I fell off
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    International students, in particular, want to study in London.
    So? Public institutions should be able the public good not business plans
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,235
    Passing Finsbury on the tube. What a dump lol
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,567
    edited October 2017
    @YBarddCwsc

    I think the dynamic is a bit different in this country. The classic case you describe would be Lampeter, which appears to be being run down prior to expected closure because it's so remote it can't attract students. In England, I'm guessing although I can't prove t that the smallest university town would be Lichfield (as Hartpury is not really a university and is a special case anyway) which is also being run down prior to closure and everything moved to Stoke. Otherwise all England's universities seem to be in fair-sized towns - at 50,000 Durham is hardly small. Even in Scotland the universities are either in largish places (Inverness) or have decent transport links (Stirling) or are very special and unique and attract students by trading on that (St Andrews).
  • My wife just watching Sky news this morning - ' shocking, absolutely shocking'

    I think that will be the response Europe wide

    Shameful - 38 injured so far
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,567
    Charles said:

    So? Public institutions should be able the public good not business plans
    Universities are not public institutions.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,095
    edited October 2017
    David Davis and JRM both done well with Luntz focus group of Tories and floating votes. Hammond done very badly with the same focus group, 'dull, boring and bland' and no compassion
  • HYUFD said:

    David Davis and JRM both done well with Luntz focus group of Tories and floating votes

    Good
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    DavidL said:

    You think their students, and all their high paying international students in particular, don't find being in London a significant part of the attraction?

    Well, its a view.
    Suspect if you moved out of London and reduced the fees you would still get significant demand. The reduction in costs would also allow for the reduction in domestic fees
  • CopperSulphateCopperSulphate Posts: 1,119
    edited October 2017
    I wonder whether this Catalonia shambles has made Scottish independence less likely.

    The difference between the way the British and Spanish governments have handled the issue must have made a few Scots think that being part of Britain isn't all that bad after all.

    It also makes Sturgeon's bleating appear even more ludicrous.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,095
    Boris did very well initially but less well on his post Queen's speech interview.

    Rudd not seen as leadership material
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,567

    I wonder whether this Catalonia shambles has made Scottish independence less likely.

    The difference between the way the British and Spanish governments have handled the issue must have made a few Scots think that being part of Britain isn't all that bad after all.

    It also makes Sturgeon's bleating appear even more ludicrous.

    I think that's pitching it strong. Those who believe Scotland would be better governed away from England are not going to be convinced otherwise merely because they have just been reminded that with all its faults the government in London respects their democratic freedom.

    It's making Catalan independence a racing certainty, however.
  • MattW said:

    St Albans to UCL seems to be a commute of well under an hour :-)

    Do these Metropolitans even know that they are born?

    Perhaps that helps explain why we have a chorus of complaints about investment outside London, whilst a strange chorus of silence about the £10s of billions thrown at eg Cross Rail.

    (I hope I have my blockquotes right)
    It should be noted that HS2, of which construction is to start in London, is already being used as a reason as to why CrossRail2 is 'necessary'.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    OchEye said:

    The regions of France, Italy, Netherlands, the Landers of Germany and others would be encouraged to try and secede. The administration of the now 27 is difficult enough - how much more "fun" would it be for a hundred or so.....
    And as the EU moves towards becoming a single country, then regions within existing countries are likely to split off and want to do their own thing.

    Spain must realise that shooting baton rounds at voters is not going to go down well internationally.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,095
    edited October 2017
    Focus group eliminates Hammond and Rudd then Boris.

    They also do not want May to lead the party into the next general election, Luntz final focus group decision is a split between JRM and David Davis to lead the Tories into the next general election 12 each
  • Sandpit said:

    And as the EU moves towards becoming a single country, then regions within existing countries are likely to split off and want to do their own thing.

    Spain must realise that shooting baton rounds at voters is not going to go down well internationally.
    But according to junker if only the EU was a much closer union all these problems will go away...
  • HYUFD said:

    Focus group eliminates Hammond and Rudd then Boris.

    They also do not want May to lead the party into the next general election, Luntz final focus group decision is a split between JRM and David Davis to lead the Tories into the next general election 12 each

    Interesting if they were put to the members
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,945
    Charles said:

    So? Public institutions should be able the public good not business plans
    Which raises the question what are Universities for? Are they for the benefit of wealthy young people from overseas to fill their Instagram with pictures of Merrie Olde London. Or are they to educate the populace and build a stronger economy?
    My view is that there is not much point in having world class institutions like LSE and Imperial as well as their minor associates if British students can't even consider attending.
    Besides would foreigners be greatly put off if they find themselves in Bromley or Enfield rather than Bloomsbury?
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    edited October 2017
    Charles said:

    Suspect if you moved out of London and reduced the fees you would still get significant demand. The reduction in costs would also allow for the reduction in domestic fees
    The 'gold, silver, bronze' ratings of the Teaching Excellence Framework are probably the most meaningless metric that the Government has ever dreamt up, but it'll be interesting to see if the low ratings of most London institutions will have any impact on their recruitment of students (both domestic and international). I suspect it won't, but it will be worth watching what happens to LSE, especially, in the wake of their bronze.
  • stevefstevef Posts: 1,044
    No government in British history has lost its majority, stayed in power and then got it back again at the next election. For this government to be the first, it has to do something revolutionary and not just tinker.

    At the same time no opposition in British history has ever won a majority without being at least 15 points ahead in the polls between elections. The striking thing about today's Yougov poll is that Labour is only 1 point ahead, something which even Neil Kinnock and Ed Miliband bettered.

    All this suggests that the most likely outcome of the next election is a hung parliament with Labour as the biggest party -unless the Tories do something revolutionarty to buck history.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    ydoethur said:

    Universities are not public institutions.
    Yes they are, in the wider sense of the word.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,567
    HYUFD said:

    Focus group eliminates Hammond and Rudd then Boris.

    They also do not want May to lead the party into the next general election, Luntz final focus group decision is a split between JRM and David Davis to lead the Tories into the next general election 12 each

    There would be a certain irony if David Davis, who emphasised his pro-EPP stance in the 2005 leadership election before losing to a more charismatic politician who wanted to smash it, reversed the process by riding Brexit to seize the premiership ahead of his more charismatic rivals.
  • ydoethur said:

    I think that's pitching it strong. Those who believe Scotland would be better governed away from England are not going to be convinced otherwise merely because they have just been reminded that with all its faults the government in London respects their democratic freedom.

    It's making Catalan independence a racing certainty, however.
    I agree. I don't think it will change many Scot's minds about how they would vote in another referendum but I do think it makes us all grateful that the overwhelming majority of people across the UK can see the rights and wrongs of this and recognise that people must be allowed to have their say even if we don't necessarily like the result.

    I would hope and expect the same applies to most of Europe. It strikes me that Spain is the exception rather than the rule in this case.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,095
    ydoethur said:

    There would be a certain irony if David Davis, who emphasised his pro-EPP stance in the 2005 leadership election before losing to a more charismatic politician who wanted to smash it, reversed the process by riding Brexit to seize the premiership ahead of his more charismatic rivals.
    It would also be a reversal of the 2005 Luntz where David Cameron beat David Davis
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,670
    ydoethur said:

    @YBarddCwsc

    I think the dynamic is a bit different in this country. The classic case you describe would be Lampeter, which appears to be being run down prior to expected closure because it's so remote it can't attract students. In England, I'm guessing although I can't prove t that the smallest university town would be Lichfield (as Hartpury is not really a university and is a special case anyway) which is also being run down prior to closure and everything moved to Stoke. Otherwise all England's universities seem to be in fair-sized towns - at 50,000 Durham is hardly small. Even in Scotland the universities are either in largish places (Inverness) or have decent transport links (Stirling) or are very special and unique and attract students by trading on that (St Andrews).

    Do not forget that in places like Durham perhaps 20% (nearly 30% if they all live in the town from the University alone) or more of the population are full-time students.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,567
    edited October 2017
    Charles said:

    Yes they are, in the wider sense of the word.
    In a very wide sense of the word. The government sets a regulatory framework but it cannot actually force them to do anything. They are private charitable trusts and are entitled to act as they see fit.

    We saw that when that dodgy old git Leighton Andrews tried to force through multiple mergers in Welsh HE and couldn't manage it - he achieved precisely one that wouldn't have happened anyway and that was only because the VC at Newport fell ill at the wrong moment.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,530
    edited October 2017
    Pulpstar said:

    Passing Finsbury on the tube. What a dump lol

    Is it different to what you see from the ECML ?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,567
    MattW said:

    Do not forget that in places like Durham perhaps 20% (nearly 30% if they all live in the town from the University alone) or more of the population are full-time students.
    That's excluding the student population.

    I was at Aberystwyth - even higher ratio.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited October 2017
    dixiedean said:

    Which raises the question what are Universities for? Are they for the benefit of wealthy young people from overseas to fill their Instagram with pictures of Merrie Olde London. Or are they to educate the populace and build a stronger economy?
    My view is that there is not much point in having world class institutions like LSE and Imperial as well as their minor associates if British students can't even consider attending.
    Besides would foreigners be greatly put off if they find themselves in Bromley or Enfield rather than Bloomsbury?
    I wouldn't go quite as far as you, but agree with the general view. Universities are about educating our own (and research) not earning fees from abroad. Clearly there is a role for international students and, even more so, academics but at the moment the balance is wrong
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,095
    stevef said:

    No government in British history has lost its majority, stayed in power and then got it back again at the next election. For this government to be the first, it has to do something revolutionary and not just tinker.

    At the same time no opposition in British history has ever won a majority without being at least 15 points ahead in the polls between elections. The striking thing about today's Yougov poll is that Labour is only 1 point ahead, something which even Neil Kinnock and Ed Miliband bettered.

    All this suggests that the most likely outcome of the next election is a hung parliament with Labour as the biggest party -unless the Tories do something revolutionarty to buck history.

    In some ways a Corbyn minority government propped up by the SNP and the LDs with the Tories having a real chance of winning the general election after would be better for the blues than a narrow Tory win next time followed by a landslide Labour win under a non Corbyn leader the general election after and 10-15 years of Labour government.

    However there is no question the latter would be better for the country than the former.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,103

    My wife just watching Sky news this morning - ' shocking, absolutely shocking'

    I think that will be the response Europe wide

    Shameful - 38 injured so far

    Yes and not a squeak from our politicians or the EU. You expect that from the right wing Tories , but what weasels those great internationalists of labour are.
  • I agree. I don't think it will change many Scot's minds about how they would vote in another referendum but I do think it makes us all grateful that the overwhelming majority of people across the UK can see the rights and wrongs of this and recognise that people must be allowed to have their say even if we don't necessarily like the result.

    I would hope and expect the same applies to most of Europe. It strikes me that Spain is the exception rather than the rule in this case.
    Scottish Labour appear not to be in the 'majority', lots of tweets about respecting the law & illegal referendums.

    Has Internationalist Jez commented yet?
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 4,264

    The 'gold, silver, bronze' ratings of the Teaching Excellence Framework are probably the most meaningless metric that the Government has ever dreamt up, but it'll be interesting to see if the low ratings of most London institutions will have any impact on their recruitment of students (both domestic and international). I suspect it won't, but it will be worth watching what happens to LSE, especially, in the wake of their bronze.
    The TEF is awful, it somehow tries to measure the quality of the education universities provide without measuring the quality of teaching.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    ydoethur said:

    In a very wide sense of the word. The government sets a regulatory framework but it cannot actually force them to do anything. They are private charitable trusts and are entitled to act as they see fit.

    We saw that when that dodgy old git Leighton Andrews tried to force through multiple mergers in Welsh HE and couldn't manage it - he achieved precisely one that wouldn't have happened anyway and that was only because the VC at Newport fell ill at the wrong moment.
    You are talking about ownership,

    I am referring to their stakeholders.

    If they want to be fully private: fine. But why should the government help fund them via student fee support?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,095

    Interesting if they were put to the members
    Would be with David Davis the moderate candidate ironically, the reverse of 2005 when he was the more rightwing candidate. Though also some desire for a fresh face
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022

    They can object but it wouldn't be 'quite rightly'. Why should the tax payer subsidise students studying courses that will bring only marginal benefit to the country rather than those which have real practical benefits. If we were not short of STEM graduates you would perhaps have a point but when both money and those with the right skills are lacking it is surely the job of the Government to target the taxpayer's money to where it would best benefit the country.
    Yep, do it the other way around. Charge £15k fees on liberal arts degrees, to make STEM degrees £3k. We need STEM graduates so should incentivise them.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,103

    I wonder whether this Catalnia shambles has made Scottish independence less likely.

    The difference between the way the British and Spanish governments have handled the issue must have made a few Scots think that being part of Britain isn't all that bad after all.

    It also makes Sturgeon's bleating appear even more ludicrous.

    It is only seen as bleating to sad Little Englanders like you. Sounds like you prefer the Spanish way. We will have our say again when we want it despite the London Dictator outlawing it. No democracy in the UK given the Scottish parliament voted by a majority for a second vote.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,567
    Charles said:

    You are talking about ownership,

    I am referring to their stakeholders.

    If they want to be fully private: fine. But why should the government help fund them via student fee support?

    A question quite a number of Russell Group institutions appear to be asking if my sources are to be believed given the inadequacy of the fee support, or tuition grant.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,095
    malcolmg said:

    It is only seen as bleating to sad Little Englanders like you. Sounds like you prefer the Spanish way. We will have our say again when we want it despite the London Dictator outlawing it. No democracy in the UK given the Scottish parliament voted by a majority for a second vote.
    The SNP got just 37% in June, down from 50% in 2015.

    Canada did eventually give Quebec a second independence referendum in 1995 but only 15 years after the first in 1980.

    On that basis if there is to be a second Scottish independence referendum it will not be until 2029.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,567
    malcolmg said:

    It is only seen as bleating to sad Little Englanders like you. Sounds like you prefer the Spanish way. We will have our say again when we want it despite the London Dictator outlawing it. No democracy in the UK given the Scottish parliament voted by a majority for a second vote.
    To be accurate, they voted by a narrow majority to petition Westminster for a second ballot.

    Then came the election and they dropped the request.

    I very much doubt however if Theresa May would have ordered riot police to shoot at pro-independence voters. She would just have ignored the result unless it was something like 60% of eligible voters in favour.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,095
    Sandpit said:

    Yep, do it the other way around. Charge £15k fees on liberal arts degrees, to make STEM degrees £3k. We need STEM graduates so should incentivise them.
    No, that is ridiculous, we need some arts students to run theatres, museums, galleries, teach, research and staff the creative industries etc. Given on average they earn significantly less than STEM students their fees should be less than those for STEM students. However government should subsidise STEM courses more than arts courses as the country really needs them and they cost more to run
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,945

    The 'gold, silver, bronze' ratings of the Teaching Excellence Framework are probably the most meaningless metric that the Government has ever dreamt up, but it'll be interesting to see if the low ratings of most London institutions will have any impact on their recruitment of students (both domestic and international). I suspect it won't, but it will be worth watching what happens to LSE, especially, in the wake of their bronze.
    Teaching has never been emphasised as a priority at LSE. I had a tutor who when I went to ask about an essay took me to the window and pointed. There is the library. You will find the answers there.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,567
    HYUFD said:

    The SNP got just 37% in June, down from 50% in 2015.

    Canada did eventually give Quebec a second independence referendum in 1995 but only 15 years after the first in 1980.

    On that basis if there is to be a second Scottish independence referendum it will not be until 2029.
    To slightly misquote the greatest Scotsman of them all, these Scottish generations are making an old man of me!
  • Scottish Labour appear not to be in the 'majority', lots of tweets about respecting the law & illegal referendums.

    Has Internationalist Jez commented yet?
    I hadn't seen that. Very sad that they are on the wrong side of the moral line on this.
  • VerulamiusVerulamius Posts: 1,555
    I think that the cathedral city of St Albans would love to have a university of its own. The law faculty of the University of Hertfordshire used to be based in St Albans, due to St Albans having a Crown Court, but that moved to Hatfield after the new campus opened.

    However cheap house prices for students and academics would not be a good reason, as St Albans has high prices due to the quick and easy Thameslink service to St Pancras (handy for the Crick Institute) and onwards to the City and then London Bridge (from 2018).

    However it does has good culture. Can I beg forgiveness for plugging a concert next Saturday (7 October) in the Cathedral in which I am singing. Music written this decade, one piece based on Keats’ Ode to a Nightingale, and the other on the life of Alan Turing.

    https://www.stalbanscathedral.org/whatson/music/codebreaker
  • malcolmg said:

    It is only seen as bleating to sad Little Englanders like you. Sounds like you prefer the Spanish way. We will have our say again when we want it despite the London Dictator outlawing it. No democracy in the UK given the Scottish parliament voted by a majority for a second vote.
    So I'll put you down as a maybe?
  • Sandpit said:

    And as the EU moves towards becoming a single country, then regions within existing countries are likely to split off and want to do their own thing.

    Spain must realise that shooting baton rounds at voters is not going to go down well internationally.
    Once there is an EU army then this will be the scene at any former country wanting to leave the EU.
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469

    Madrid government = Partido Popular = right wing conservatives. PP spend a lot of time denying that they're the heirs to Franco; draw your own conclusions.
    Thanks, I was wondering why there wasn't much condemnation from the Tories or the Daily Mail. Reminds me of the "Lurve In" by Thatcher and Dacre with Pinochet.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,103
    edited October 2017
    HYUFD said:

    The SNP got just 37% in June, down from 50% in 2015.

    Canada did eventually give Quebec a second independence referendum in 1995 but only 15 years after the first in 1980.

    On that basis if there is to be a second Scottish independence referendum it will not be until 2029.
    You thick, no mention of SNP. The Scottish parliament voted by a majority to have a second referendum
    PS: to cover ydoethur's pedantry , it was to petition our Lords and Masters at Westminster to allow us the power to be able to think for ourselves.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022

    Britain Elects‏ @britainelects 49m49 minutes ago
    More
    Londoners // The decision to revoke Uber's license was the...

    Right decision: 43%
    Wrong decision: 31%

    Wow, good to see the real story (rather than Uber’s expensive spin) get through to the public.
  • OchEye said:

    Thanks, I was wondering why there wasn't much condemnation from the Tories or the Daily Mail. Reminds me of the "Lurve In" by Thatcher and Dacre with Pinochet.
    Its the top story on the daily mail website and they have embedded the worst of the videos and images. They are hardly sweeping it under the carpet.
  • I hadn't seen that. Very sad that they are on the wrong side of the moral line on this.
    Tbf Kezia seems to have recovered her moral compass.

    https://twitter.com/kezdugdale/status/914445394993696769
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    ydoethur said:

    A question quite a number of Russell Group institutions appear to be asking if my sources are to be believed given the inadequacy of the fee support, or tuition grant.
    The Buckingham model works well in my view - not right for everyone but an interesting option
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,567

    Once there is an EU army then this will be the scene at any former country wanting to leave the EU.
    Unfortunately Spain is giving a whole new meaning to Malcolm X's famous question about ballots or bullets. They're merging the two.

    Bearing in mind that the entire referendum could have been avoided if Rajoy hadn't reneged on that deal about new powers, this is an utter shambles that should cause the collapse of the Spanish government.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    OchEye said:

    Thanks, I was wondering why there wasn't much condemnation from the Tories or the Daily Mail. Reminds me of the "Lurve In" by Thatcher and Dacre with Pinochet.
    Nah. Just realpolitik. We can't afford to piss off Spain just now
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,095
    ydoethur said:

    To slightly misquote the greatest Scotsman of them all, these Scottish generations are making an old man of me!
    It will likely be another generation or two before the question is asked again
This discussion has been closed.