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Tomorrow night at 10 PM a documentary on Boris Johnson by Gary Gibbon is due to be screened on Channel 4 and judging by some of the extracts so far released it looks set to unsettle CON delegates in Manchester.
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If Johnson succeeds in deposing May I can't see how he can command the loyalty of enough Tory remainers. A GE would be inevitable.0
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How is that general election going to come about? I cannot see the Tories voting for oneThomasNashe said:If Johnson succeeds in deposing May I can't see how he can command the loyalty of enough Tory remainers. A GE would be inevitable.
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Problem is if Boris takes over before March 2019 he is effectively in charge of the Brexit negotiations and there is next to zero chance the EU will do a deal with him.
He knows that which is why he will wait until 2019 and 2020 to challenge when a deal has been done and he has cemented himself as the only contender to ensure 'Brexit means Brexit' once any transition period is over0 -
p.s. I agree with Tyson on the previous thread. He is the most loathsome, self-interested, unpatriotic shit ever to get within striking distance of the leadership of a major political party - and there's been some tough competition for that accolade. Again, it's why he would not last long as PM - there are a lot of people within his own party who share that assessment.0
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His version of Brexit is not one that could command a consensus. Only requires a few Tory remain MPs with safe seats to rebel ...MikeSmithson said:
How is that general election going to come about? I cannot see the Tories voting for oneThomasNashe said:If Johnson succeeds in deposing May I can't see how he can command the loyalty of enough Tory remainers. A GE would be inevitable.
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Good news for the NHS, though. Another £350 million a week coming their way.0
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That would mean Corbyn becomes PM - why would Boris even go for the job that being the case? I know he does well in leader polling for the Tories, but as seen on here plenty of Tories dislike him, he surely knows that.ThomasNashe said:If Johnson succeeds in deposing May I can't see how he can command the loyalty of enough Tory remainers. A GE would be inevitable.
As HYUFD suggests if he takes over too soon he is responsible for any Brexit issues - sure many, particularly those not in the party, will blame him for the Leave vote anyway, but if things go south he takes a big hit. Wait a bit, daring May to sack him, and he may calculate he will take less.0 -
Sure, but the premise of this thread seems to be a possible takeover weeks after the party conference.kle4 said:
That would mean Corbyn becomes PM - why would Boris even go for the job that being the case? I know he does well in leader polling for the Tories, but as seen on here plenty of Tories dislike him, he surely knows that.ThomasNashe said:If Johnson succeeds in deposing May I can't see how he can command the loyalty of enough Tory remainers. A GE would be inevitable.
As HYUFD suggests if he takes over too soon he is responsible for any Brexit issues - sure many, particularly those not in the party, will blame him for the Leave vote anyway, but if things go south he takes a big hit. Wait a bit, daring May to sack him, and he may calculate he will take less.
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FPT
What is my vision for the Conservative Party? Well, who cares, but anyway....
I want a party that wants us united as a country focussed on creating wealth but also focussed on sharing that wealth and caring for the less fortunate, including those abroad through the aid budget.
I want a party that is focussed on aspiration and equality of opportunity, that recognises that our current social structure does not give anything like equality of opportunity and seeks to address that with specific policies.
I want a party with a strong respect for the rule of law (yes, that includes you Home Secretary) but recognises that law is often not the answer and that the State should be careful about the unintended consequences of regulation.
I want as many people as possible to be a part of a property owning democracy with the security of owning their own homes, security in employment, the opportunities to train and to better themselves. This needs policies encouraging home ownership, in work training, private pensions, the living wage, better job security and encouragement to save.
I want a government that seeks to live within its means and not burden the next generation with excessive debt, that seeks value for the money it spends, that recognises the adverse economic effect of excessive taxation but also the importance of having all who gain from our society paying their share.
With Cameron and Osborne a lot, if not all, of those boxes were ticked. The 2017 manifesto ticked fewer and I really don't know what the current state of play is. It is the job of this Conference to tell us, loud and clear. To be honest, I am not holding my breath.0 -
@HYUFD You either completely misunderstand what Universal Credit is, what it does and who it's paid to or are just trolling.0
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'Twas because of Boris that voted Tory for the first time ever in 2008 (London Mayor).0
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F-14? What, the F-14?. Woo! You've posted before about your presence on US aircraft carriers. Any interesting anecdotes to dish?Dura_Ace said:
And are completely pointless as a carrier is militarily useless without a battle group. As of right now, the RN has 6 surface combatant vessels available for operations.YellowSubmarine said:.The two Aircraft Carriers look nice but are ruinously expensive.
You will never find a more passionate advocate of naval aviation than me (2 tours on Sea Harrier, 1 on F-14, 1 on Lynx) but the QE class is bleeding every other part of the service white.0 -
beaten to it by @williamglenn0
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Mr. kle4, Boris' ambition eclipses every other part of his personality. He's an oaf.0
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The RN used F-4 Phantom, IIRC. But not F-14viewcode said:
F-14? What, the F-14?. Woo! You've posted before about your presence on US aircraft carriers. Any interesting anecdotes to dish?Dura_Ace said:
And are completely pointless as a carrier is militarily useless without a battle group. As of right now, the RN has 6 surface combatant vessels available for operations.YellowSubmarine said:.The two Aircraft Carriers look nice but are ruinously expensive.
You will never find a more passionate advocate of naval aviation than me (2 tours on Sea Harrier, 1 on F-14, 1 on Lynx) but the QE class is bleeding every other part of the service white.0 -
Cameron and Osborne ?DavidL said:FPT
What is my vision for the Conservative Party? Well, who cares, but anyway....
I want a party that wants us united as a country focussed on creating wealth but also focussed on sharing that wealth and caring for the less fortunate, including those abroad through the aid budget.
I want a party that is focussed on aspiration and equality of opportunity, that recognises that our current social structure does not give anything like equality of opportunity and seeks to address that with specific policies.
I want a party with a strong respect for the rule of law (yes, that includes you Home Secretary) but recognises that law is often not the answer and that the State should be careful about the unintended consequences of regulation.
I want as many people as possible to be a part of a property owning democracy with the security of owning their own homes, security in employment, the opportunities to train and to better themselves. This needs policies encouraging home ownership, in work training, private pensions, the living wage, better job security and encouragement to save.
I want a government that seeks to live within its means and not burden the next generation with excessive debt, that seeks value for the money it spends, that recognises the adverse economic effect of excessive taxation but also the importance of having all who gain from our society paying their share.
With Cameron and Osborne a lot, if not all, of those boxes were ticked. The 2017 manifesto ticked fewer and I really don't know what the current state of play is. It is the job of this Conference to tell us, loud and clear. To be honest, I am not holding my breath.
Paragraph 1 - Fail - 'March of the Makers' and the world's largest current account deficit
Paragraph 2 - Fail - Student debt and triple lock pensions plus a chumocracy
Paragraph 3 - Fail - Nanny state and surveillance state
Paragraph 4 - Fail - Falling home ownership and stagnant wages
Paragraph 5 - Fail - Half a trillion borrowed leading to a half a trillion current account deficit
You need to take a good look at who the Conservatives have pissed off.
Its the people who have £50k of student debt
Its the people who are still renting a room at 30
Its the people who were told "We're all in this together"
Its the people who thought there would be no more Middle Eastern warmongering
Its the people who were told there would be a 'March of the Makers'
Its the people who were told that net immigration would be reduced to the tens of thousands
Its the people who thought there would be sound public finances
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I know. I think @Dura_Ace has served on US carriers.Sunil_Prasannan said:
The RN used F-4 Phantom, IIRC. But not F-14viewcode said:
F-14? What, the F-14?. Woo! You've posted before about your presence on US aircraft carriers. Any interesting anecdotes to dish?Dura_Ace said:
And are completely pointless as a carrier is militarily useless without a battle group. As of right now, the RN has 6 surface combatant vessels available for operations.YellowSubmarine said:.The two Aircraft Carriers look nice but are ruinously expensive.
You will never find a more passionate advocate of naval aviation than me (2 tours on Sea Harrier, 1 on F-14, 1 on Lynx) but the QE class is bleeding every other part of the service white.0 -
I've sen posts here supporting retaliatory tariffs, in favour of perpetual currency devaluation, and stating that car-washes are wealth-consuming. During his misbegotten tenure as CofE Osborne initiated Help-To-Buy, which started house-prices going up again as he funneled money into a product with inelastic supply and infinite demand.Casino_Royale said:The Conservatives stand for...credible economics...
My problem with the Conservative party is not that it supports credible economics. My problem is that it doesn't.0 -
The alternative view is that he and Gove about the only Ministers in this government who actually believe in anything beyond their own careers and being marginally less incompetent than Labour. Boris has a vision for this country. It may not be entirely realistic, it may not be universally popular, it may be bordering on barking even but at least he has some idea of what he wants, just like David was calling for on the last thread.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. kle4, Boris' ambition eclipses every other part of his personality. He's an oaf.
May should have quit after the fiasco of the GE. Boris is the only one still in the Commons who seems to have the balls to point this out.
I am not entirely sure that is my view. But May is an embarrassment for the Party and the country. We cannot go on like this.0 -
Looks like civil disturbance will occur tomorrow:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-414521740 -
Cabinet minister or junior under Secretary of State for paper clips at the Cabinet office?williamglenn said:0 -
Boris's plan is simple - push and push and push Theresa until she sacks him. Then he can destroy her from without, his loyalty much less questioned. The problem is that Theresa knows this so won't give him that opportunity. The result: paralysis and disharmony at the most critical time in British history since the Second World War. The Tories have made Corbyn look like the voice of patriotism and good sense. How did this happen?0
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I broadly agree with the analysis but of the two, I wouldn't pick Boris.DavidL said:
The alternative view is that he and Gove about the only Ministers in this government who actually believe in anything beyond their own careers and being marginally less incompetent than Labour. Boris has a vision for this country. It may not be entirely realistic, it may not be universally popular, it may be bordering on barking even but at least he has some idea of what he wants, just like David was calling for on the last thread.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. kle4, Boris' ambition eclipses every other part of his personality. He's an oaf.
May should have quit after the fiasco of the GE. Boris is the only one still in the Commons who seems to have the balls to point this out.
I am not entirely sure that is my view. But May is an embarrassment for the Party and the country. We cannot go on like this.0 -
I prefer to think of him, though capable of charm, as an expression I believe he himself coined - a bloviating homunculus.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. kle4, Boris' ambition eclipses every other part of his personality. He's an oaf.
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It hasn't. They've made themselves look like fools, it hasn't made him less of one.Stark_Dawning said:The Tories have made Corbyn look like the voice of patriotism and good sense. How did this happen?
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I wouldn't either.david_herdson said:
I broadly agree with the analysis but of the two, I wouldn't pick Boris.DavidL said:
The alternative view is that he and Gove about the only Ministers in this government who actually believe in anything beyond their own careers and being marginally less incompetent than Labour. Boris has a vision for this country. It may not be entirely realistic, it may not be universally popular, it may be bordering on barking even but at least he has some idea of what he wants, just like David was calling for on the last thread.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. kle4, Boris' ambition eclipses every other part of his personality. He's an oaf.
May should have quit after the fiasco of the GE. Boris is the only one still in the Commons who seems to have the balls to point this out.
I am not entirely sure that is my view. But May is an embarrassment for the Party and the country. We cannot go on like this.0 -
Probably Boris himself.brendan16 said:
Cabinet minister or junior under Secretary of State for paper clips at the Cabinet office?williamglenn said:0 -
Henry Bolton giving a strong message - one to watch0
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I've got a million war stories and they get more gripping each time I tell them.viewcode said:
F-14? What, the F-14?. Woo! You've posted before about your presence on US aircraft carriers. Any interesting anecdotes to dish?Dura_Ace said:
And are completely pointless as a carrier is militarily useless without a battle group. As of right now, the RN has 6 surface combatant vessels available for operations.YellowSubmarine said:.The two Aircraft Carriers look nice but are ruinously expensive.
You will never find a more passionate advocate of naval aviation than me (2 tours on Sea Harrier, 1 on F-14, 1 on Lynx) but the QE class is bleeding every other part of the service white.
The F-14 conversion on my exchange tour was interesting as there were no twin sticks. I sat in the RIO seat for a couple of visual circuits, we landed back at Oceana, hot fuelled it, switched seats with my brave instructor getting in the back and off we go! What seemed like a very short time later I had to land the brute on the deck of the Shitty Kitty for my first ever arrested landing without the benefit of a T-2/T-45 course first!
A year and a bit later I was supersonic over Kabul airport flying a TARPS mission on the first (or maybe the second) night of OEF...0 -
What time does the Boris and Theresa Punch and Judy show start?DavidL said:
The alternative view is that he and Gove about the only Ministers in this government who actually believe in anything beyond their own careers and being marginally less incompetent than Labour. Boris has a vision for this country. It may not be entirely realistic, it may not be universally popular, it may be bordering on barking even but at least he has some idea of what he wants, just like David was calling for on the last thread.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. kle4, Boris' ambition eclipses every other part of his personality. He's an oaf.
May should have quit after the fiasco of the GE. Boris is the only one still in the Commons who seems to have the balls to point this out.
I am not entirely sure that is my view. But May is an embarrassment for the Party and the country. We cannot go on like this.
I may need to lay in extra popcorn.0 -
Well then Boris should just quit, stating that he can't work under someone that crap. But he knows that such an obvious act of disloyalty wouldn't endear him to the party faithful and might scupper his own leadership plans. Better to let Theresa take the party and country down with her, then build up his leadership bid from the debris.DavidL said:
The alternative view is that he and Gove about the only Ministers in this government who actually believe in anything beyond their own careers and being marginally less incompetent than Labour. Boris has a vision for this country. It may not be entirely realistic, it may not be universally popular, it may be bordering on barking even but at least he has some idea of what he wants, just like David was calling for on the last thread.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. kle4, Boris' ambition eclipses every other part of his personality. He's an oaf.
May should have quit after the fiasco of the GE. Boris is the only one still in the Commons who seems to have the balls to point this out.
I am not entirely sure that is my view. But May is an embarrassment for the Party and the country. We cannot go on like this.0 -
People appear to be missing the point that the changed parliamentary arithmetic since June makes it much more difficult for a Tory PM to call a snap election. If the DUP do not favour such an election, they might prefer to install Corbyn for a limited period. On the other hand, Corbyn may relish the prospect of a replay!ThomasNashe said:
His version of Brexit is not one that could command a consensus. Only requires a few Tory remain MPs with safe seats to rebel ...MikeSmithson said:
How is that general election going to come about? I cannot see the Tories voting for oneThomasNashe said:If Johnson succeeds in deposing May I can't see how he can command the loyalty of enough Tory remainers. A GE would be inevitable.
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Boris is toxic to a Tory Remainer like me. I'd vote IDS before him now.... and I'd sooner cheer on Chelsea than do that.0
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Hmm... odds on him are? He had a terrible GE campaign didn't he?
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/9141221519214387210 -
I am a converted remainer but agree, Boris has gone too farScrapheap_as_was said:Boris is toxic to a Tory Remainer like me. I'd vote IDS before him now.... and I'd sooner cheer on Chelsea than do that.
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I don't recall him being great, but he's been a useful attack dog in the past - he has a reasonably authoritative manner and is bland to the point testing out attacks does not seem to stick in the mind if it goes wrong.Scrapheap_as_was said:Hmm... odds on him are? He had a terrible GE campaign didn't he?
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/9141221519214387210 -
Yes, but was he a Remainer or Brexiters?Scrapheap_as_was said:Hmm... odds on him are? He had a terrible GE campaign didn't he?
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/914122151921438721
Roundhead or Cavalier?0 -
It depends on whether he is getting his own way or not. May's Florence speech seems to have been rewritten by him in large part and he then loudly approved it. As long as he is achieving some of his vision from the inside he is right to fight for it. But it doesn't make for a quiet government.Stark_Dawning said:
Well then Boris should just quit, stating that he can't work under someone that crap. But he knows that such an obvious act of disloyalty wouldn't endear him to the party faithful and might scupper his own leadership plans. Better to let Theresa take the party and country down with her, then build up his leadership bid from the debris.DavidL said:
The alternative view is that he and Gove about the only Ministers in this government who actually believe in anything beyond their own careers and being marginally less incompetent than Labour. Boris has a vision for this country. It may not be entirely realistic, it may not be universally popular, it may be bordering on barking even but at least he has some idea of what he wants, just like David was calling for on the last thread.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. kle4, Boris' ambition eclipses every other part of his personality. He's an oaf.
May should have quit after the fiasco of the GE. Boris is the only one still in the Commons who seems to have the balls to point this out.
I am not entirely sure that is my view. But May is an embarrassment for the Party and the country. We cannot go on like this.
The point is we have a zombie PM who made catastrophic errors of judgment, who is incapable of building a team and increasingly seems to have no idea what to do next. Pretending everything is somehow ok in that scenario is really not the answer.0 -
It used to be said that Cameron didn't stand for anything and just wanted to be PM for being PM sake, Boris is hardly a break from that accusation.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I am a converted remainer but agree, Boris has gone too farScrapheap_as_was said:Boris is toxic to a Tory Remainer like me. I'd vote IDS before him now.... and I'd sooner cheer on Chelsea than do that.
His blatant manoeuvres suggest that he might as well make a trip to visit some British troops somewhere in the world on the day May does her big speech to conference....0 -
Has Boris done something else since his Telegraph article? He does seem to be trying to get just enough distance between himself and May so that he can blame her when Brexit (inevitably) fucks up.0
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My daughter a regional manager in retail alongside some of her work colleagues slept out on the street last night in Leeds to raise money for a charity , Simon on the street .
I told my elderly father about it who is very proud of her.He told me he goes for a drink every Wednesday in the Conservative club and he has noticed the increase in people sleeping in doorways over the past year in York as he walked for his bus home.
The wife and I were invited to a wedding evening do , the first time in a while, I had been out in the early hours for a bit, and I could concur with their observations.Whether this increase is tied to Universal Credit I do not know but it is reminiscent of the 1980s.0 -
May should do a conference address in the same vein as her famous ‘nasty party’ speech, disown the promises of the Leave campaign and hang Boris out to dry.0
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£350m per week is £18bn per year.ThomasNashe said:Good news for the NHS, though. Another £350 million a week coming their way.
In 2016 the UK had a current account deficit of over £115bn.
Does that make you think ? It should do.0 -
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But was Cameron as blatantly disruptive to a serving leader in pursuit of his ambitions?Scrapheap_as_was said:
It used to be said that Cameron didn't stand for anything and just wanted to be PM for being PM sake, Boris is hardly a break from that accusation.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I am a converted remainer but agree, Boris has gone too farScrapheap_as_was said:Boris is toxic to a Tory Remainer like me. I'd vote IDS before him now.... and I'd sooner cheer on Chelsea than do that.
.
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I guessed what RIO, T-45 and OEF were, but the rest I had to google. Woo, impressive. You still flying?Dura_Ace said:
I've got a million war stories and they get more gripping each time I tell them.viewcode said:
F-14? What, the F-14?. Woo! You've posted before about your presence on US aircraft carriers. Any interesting anecdotes to dish?Dura_Ace said:
And are completely pointless as a carrier is militarily useless without a battle group. As of right now, the RN has 6 surface combatant vessels available for operations.YellowSubmarine said:.The two Aircraft Carriers look nice but are ruinously expensive.
You will never find a more passionate advocate of naval aviation than me (2 tours on Sea Harrier, 1 on F-14, 1 on Lynx) but the QE class is bleeding every other part of the service white.
The F-14 conversion on my exchange tour was interesting as there were no twin sticks. I sat in the RIO seat for a couple of visual circuits, we landed back at Oceana, hot fuelled it, switched seats with my brave instructor getting in the back and off we go! What seemed like a very short time later I had to land the brute on the deck of the Shitty Kitty for my first ever arrested landing without the benefit of a T-2/T-45 course first!
A year and a bit later I was supersonic over Kabul airport flying a TARPS mission on the first (or maybe the second) night of OEF...0 -
My wife was the USS Nimitz's pin up for a while. Still have the photos somewhereviewcode said:
I know. I think @Dura_Ace has served on US carriers.Sunil_Prasannan said:
The RN used F-4 Phantom, IIRC. But not F-14viewcode said:
F-14? What, the F-14?. Woo! You've posted before about your presence on US aircraft carriers. Any interesting anecdotes to dish?Dura_Ace said:
And are completely pointless as a carrier is militarily useless without a battle group. As of right now, the RN has 6 surface combatant vessels available for operations.YellowSubmarine said:.The two Aircraft Carriers look nice but are ruinously expensive.
You will never find a more passionate advocate of naval aviation than me (2 tours on Sea Harrier, 1 on F-14, 1 on Lynx) but the QE class is bleeding every other part of the service white.
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The idea that if Boris takes over now he will be responsible for any Brexit issues so he should wait is utterly absurd.
Boris is inextricably tied to Brexit. The referendum saw to that. There is no way to dodge responsibility just by not being the one in charge so he may as well be the one in charge.
View it as like Game Theory. There's only a few possible plausible possibilities.
1: May stays, Brexit is a success. May wins and recovers her reputation.
2: May stays, Brexit is a failure. May and Boris are destroyed.
3: May goes now, Boris takes over - Boris is responsible and will live or die on his own success.
4: May goes now, someone else takes over. Boris has probably missed his window of opportunity.
I don't see a path that leads from May staying to Boris.0 -
If Boris is going to write articles questioning the patriotism of young people, what do the Tories expect?RobD said:0 -
Like that would have made a difference.JonathanD said:
If Boris is going to write articles questioning the patriotism of young people, what do the Tories expect?RobD said:
Besides which, no party deserves such hostility, and certainly not mainstream centrist parties. What mainstream centrist party should expect that people express a wish to hang them merely for belonging to it? It's absurd to suggest it should be expected.0 -
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Nope - just another reason to keep Boris out.kle4 said:
But was Cameron as blatantly disruptive to a serving leader in pursuit of his ambitions?Scrapheap_as_was said:
It used to be said that Cameron didn't stand for anything and just wanted to be PM for being PM sake, Boris is hardly a break from that accusation.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I am a converted remainer but agree, Boris has gone too farScrapheap_as_was said:Boris is toxic to a Tory Remainer like me. I'd vote IDS before him now.... and I'd sooner cheer on Chelsea than do that.
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May should sack Boris from the podium. It would make great theatre and be one of the most electrifying political events of modern times.williamglenn said:May should do a conference address in the same vein as her famous ‘nasty party’ speech, disown the promises of the Leave campaign and hang Boris out to dry.
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If she denounced Boris and Leave from the podium she would probably end up being booed and would lose a no confidence vote within a weekStark_Dawning said:
May should sack Boris from the podium. It would make great theatre and be one of the most electrifying political events of modern times.williamglenn said:May should do a conference address in the same vein as her famous ‘nasty party’ speech, disown the promises of the Leave campaign and hang Boris out to dry.
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They should have had the conference in Dronfield - they vote Conservative there.RobD said:
Easier for TSE to get to as well.0 -
No, I had 5 star, gold plated PTSD after CHF Lynx antics in and around Basra so I quit the Senior Service. I have and had zero interest in civil aviation so I did other things.viewcode said:
I guessed what RIO, T-45 and OEF were, but the rest I had to google. Woo, impressive. You still flying?Dura_Ace said:
I've got a million war stories and they get more gripping each time I tell them.viewcode said:
F-14? What, the F-14?. Woo! You've posted before about your presence on US aircraft carriers. Any interesting anecdotes to dish?Dura_Ace said:
And are completely pointless as a carrier is militarily useless without a battle group. As of right now, the RN has 6 surface combatant vessels available for operations.YellowSubmarine said:.The two Aircraft Carriers look nice but are ruinously expensive.
You will never find a more passionate advocate of naval aviation than me (2 tours on Sea Harrier, 1 on F-14, 1 on Lynx) but the QE class is bleeding every other part of the service white.
The F-14 conversion on my exchange tour was interesting as there were no twin sticks. I sat in the RIO seat for a couple of visual circuits, we landed back at Oceana, hot fuelled it, switched seats with my brave instructor getting in the back and off we go! What seemed like a very short time later I had to land the brute on the deck of the Shitty Kitty for my first ever arrested landing without the benefit of a T-2/T-45 course first!
A year and a bit later I was supersonic over Kabul airport flying a TARPS mission on the first (or maybe the second) night of OEF...0 -
Off now, shall return in the evening to check the markets. Currently, nothing's caught my eye.0
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Out of interest what would you have replaced the two new carriers with ? Would equivalents of the Invincibles have been possible ?Dura_Ace said:
No, I had 5 star, gold plated PTSD after CHF Lynx antics in and around Basra so I quit the Senior Service. I have and had zero interest in civil aviation so I did other things.viewcode said:
I guessed what RIO, T-45 and OEF were, but the rest I had to google. Woo, impressive. You still flying?Dura_Ace said:
I've got a million war stories and they get more gripping each time I tell them.viewcode said:
F-14? What, the F-14?. Woo! You've posted before about your presence on US aircraft carriers. Any interesting anecdotes to dish?Dura_Ace said:
And are completely pointless as a carrier is militarily useless without a battle group. As of right now, the RN has 6 surface combatant vessels available for operations.YellowSubmarine said:.The two Aircraft Carriers look nice but are ruinously expensive.
You will never find a more passionate advocate of naval aviation than me (2 tours on Sea Harrier, 1 on F-14, 1 on Lynx) but the QE class is bleeding every other part of the service white.
The F-14 conversion on my exchange tour was interesting as there were no twin sticks. I sat in the RIO seat for a couple of visual circuits, we landed back at Oceana, hot fuelled it, switched seats with my brave instructor getting in the back and off we go! What seemed like a very short time later I had to land the brute on the deck of the Shitty Kitty for my first ever arrested landing without the benefit of a T-2/T-45 course first!
A year and a bit later I was supersonic over Kabul airport flying a TARPS mission on the first (or maybe the second) night of OEF...0 -
No you clearly misunderstand that Universal Credit is rolling benefits into one simplifying an impossible system and ending the outrageous current system where you can lose all your benefits just for doing some part time workYellowSubmarine said:@HYUFD You either completely misunderstand what Universal Credit is, what it does and who it's paid to or are just trolling.
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As I am not a Tory party member Boris is neither toxic nor sweet to me. However even though he was a Brexiteer I certainly do not think he is fit to be PM. He makes far too many mistakes, appears to flit back and forth between positions of principle until you realise he has no principle and is by all accounts, too lazy to actually master any brief.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I am a converted remainer but agree, Boris has gone too farScrapheap_as_was said:Boris is toxic to a Tory Remainer like me. I'd vote IDS before him now.... and I'd sooner cheer on Chelsea than do that.
How any one could ever think that such an individual is fit to be PM is beyond me.0 -
I'm surprised by the lack of discussion of what's going on in Catalonia. We seem to be on the brink of a possible civil war or velvet revolution right on our doorsteps.0
-
Sadly I don't believe the UK is prepared to pay for a meaningful fixed wing naval aviation capability so something like the Japanese Hyuga class helicopter carrying "destroyer" would have made a lot more sense. Wasp class LHDs would have been cheaper and quicker if we did really want a fixed wing platform.another_richard said:
Out of interest what would you have replaced the two new carriers with ? Would equivalents of the Invincibles have been possible ?Dura_Ace said:
No, I had 5 star, gold plated PTSD after CHF Lynx antics in and around Basra so I quit the Senior Service. I have and had zero interest in civil aviation so I did other things.viewcode said:
I guessed what RIO, T-45 and OEF were, but the rest I had to google. Woo, impressive. You still flying?Dura_Ace said:
I've got a million war stories and they get more gripping each time I tell them.viewcode said:
F-14? What, the F-14?. Woo! You've posted before about your presence on US aircraft carriers. Any interesting anecdotes to dish?Dura_Ace said:
And are completely pointless as a carrier is militarily useless without a battle group. As of right now, the RN has 6 surface combatant vessels available for operations.YellowSubmarine said:.The two Aircraft Carriers look nice but are ruinously expensive.
You will never find a more passionate advocate of naval aviation than me (2 tours on Sea Harrier, 1 on F-14, 1 on Lynx) but the QE class is bleeding every other part of the service white.
The F-14 conversion on my exchange tour was interesting as there were no twin sticks. I sat in the RIO seat for a couple of visual circuits, we landed back at Oceana, hot fuelled it, switched seats with my brave instructor getting in the back and off we go! What seemed like a very short time later I had to land the brute on the deck of the Shitty Kitty for my first ever arrested landing without the benefit of a T-2/T-45 course first!
A year and a bit later I was supersonic over Kabul airport flying a TARPS mission on the first (or maybe the second) night of OEF...0 -
May unlike IDS is a sitting prime minister, who even though she lost her majority, won the election.0
-
That description also suits Corbyn multiplied by ten.Richard_Tyndall said:
As I am not a Tory party member Boris is neither toxic nor sweet to me. However even though he was a Brexiteer I certainly do not think he is fit to be PM. He makes far too many mistakes, appears to flit back and forth between positions of principle until you realise he has no principle and is by all accounts, too lazy to actually master any brief.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I am a converted remainer but agree, Boris has gone too farScrapheap_as_was said:Boris is toxic to a Tory Remainer like me. I'd vote IDS before him now.... and I'd sooner cheer on Chelsea than do that.
How any one could ever think that such an individual is fit to be PM is beyond me.0 -
Brought to you by the same left fascists who threaten to attack TV journalists at their place of work.kle4 said:
Like that would have made a difference.JonathanD said:
If Boris is going to write articles questioning the patriotism of young people, what do the Tories expect?RobD said:
Besides which, no party deserves such hostility, and certainly not mainstream centrist parties. What mainstream centrist party should expect that people express a wish to hang them merely for belonging to it? It's absurd to suggest it should be expected.
0 -
He's a bit like one of the posh amateurs who were England cricket captains even though they were rarely good enough to be in the side.Richard_Tyndall said:
As I am not a Tory party member Boris is neither toxic nor sweet to me. However even though he was a Brexiteer I certainly do not think he is fit to be PM. He makes far too many mistakes, appears to flit back and forth between positions of principle until you realise he has no principle and is by all accounts, too lazy to actually master any brief.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I am a converted remainer but agree, Boris has gone too farScrapheap_as_was said:Boris is toxic to a Tory Remainer like me. I'd vote IDS before him now.... and I'd sooner cheer on Chelsea than do that.
How any one could ever think that such an individual is fit to be PM is beyond me.
Boris as Percy Chapman and Cameron as Gubby Allen perhaps.
What we need though is a Douglas Jardine.0 -
But Brexit Brexit Brexit...ooooohhh Jeremy Corbyn...Philip_Thompson said:I'm surprised by the lack of discussion of what's going on in Catalonia. We seem to be on the brink of a possible civil war or velvet revolution right on our doorsteps.
0 -
Corbyn or Johnson - who would you pick?
The Bolshevik or the Charlatan?
0 -
I hope the other things work out for you.Dura_Ace said:
No, I had 5 star, gold plated PTSD after CHF Lynx antics in and around Basra so I quit the Senior Service. I have and had zero interest in civil aviation so I did other things.viewcode said:
I guessed what RIO, T-45 and OEF were, but the rest I had to google. Woo, impressive. You still flying?Dura_Ace said:
I've got a million war stories and they get more gripping each time I tell them.viewcode said:
F-14? What, the F-14?. Woo! You've posted before about your presence on US aircraft carriers. Any interesting anecdotes to dish?Dura_Ace said:
And are completely pointless as a carrier is militarily useless without a battle group. As of right now, the RN has 6 surface combatant vessels available for operations.YellowSubmarine said:.The two Aircraft Carriers look nice but are ruinously expensive.
You will never find a more passionate advocate of naval aviation than me (2 tours on Sea Harrier, 1 on F-14, 1 on Lynx) but the QE class is bleeding every other part of the service white.
The F-14 conversion on my exchange tour was interesting as there were no twin sticks. I sat in the RIO seat for a couple of visual circuits, we landed back at Oceana, hot fuelled it, switched seats with my brave instructor getting in the back and off we go! What seemed like a very short time later I had to land the brute on the deck of the Shitty Kitty for my first ever arrested landing without the benefit of a T-2/T-45 course first!
A year and a bit later I was supersonic over Kabul airport flying a TARPS mission on the first (or maybe the second) night of OEF...0 -
The people have voted for Leave, and Leave we will. But at a time when the country is engaged in difficult and complicated negotiations personal ambition must take a back seat. As politicians we must never forget that we serve the voters and the national interest first and foremost: we can, and should, debate long and hard behind doors but in public we must speak with one voice.HYUFD said:
If she denounced Boris and Leave from the podium she would probably end up being booed and would lose a no confidence vote within a weekStark_Dawning said:
May should sack Boris from the podium. It would make great theatre and be one of the most electrifying political events of modern times.williamglenn said:May should do a conference address in the same vein as her famous ‘nasty party’ speech, disown the promises of the Leave campaign and hang Boris out to dry.
Sadly Secretary Johnson has repeatedly demonstrated that he is unable to put the national interest ahead of his own desires. Someone who is unable to do that has no place in my government - no place in any government. That is why, shortly before this speech, I asked him to resign as Foreign Secretary.0 -
Cheers. I became a language teacher. There are worse ways to make a living.viewcode said:
I hope the other things work out for you.Dura_Ace said:
No, I had 5 star, gold plated PTSD after CHF Lynx antics in and around Basra so I quit the Senior Service. I have and had zero interest in civil aviation so I did other things.viewcode said:
I guessed what RIO, T-45 and OEF were, but the rest I had to google. Woo, impressive. You still flying?Dura_Ace said:
I've got a million war stories and they get more gripping each time I tell them.viewcode said:
F-14? What, the F-14?. Woo! You've posted before about your presence on US aircraft carriers. Any interesting anecdotes to dish?Dura_Ace said:
And are completely pointless as a carrier is militarily useless without a battle group. As of right now, the RN has 6 surface combatant vessels available for operations.YellowSubmarine said:.The two Aircraft Carriers look nice but are ruinously expensive.
You will never find a more passionate advocate of naval aviation than me (2 tours on Sea Harrier, 1 on F-14, 1 on Lynx) but the QE class is bleeding every other part of the service white.
The F-14 conversion on my exchange tour was interesting as there were no twin sticks. I sat in the RIO seat for a couple of visual circuits, we landed back at Oceana, hot fuelled it, switched seats with my brave instructor getting in the back and off we go! What seemed like a very short time later I had to land the brute on the deck of the Shitty Kitty for my first ever arrested landing without the benefit of a T-2/T-45 course first!
A year and a bit later I was supersonic over Kabul airport flying a TARPS mission on the first (or maybe the second) night of OEF...0 -
Boris is doing nothing but ensure the argument that the transition period should be 2 years maximum and no more is heard and as Foreign Secretary that is entirely in accordance with his remit.Charles said:
The people have voted for Leave, and Leave we will. But at a time when the country is engaged in difficult and complicated negotiations personal ambition must take a back seat. As politicians we must never forget that we serve the voters and the national interest first and foremost: we can, and should, debate long and hard behind doors but in public we must speak with one voice.HYUFD said:
If she denounced Boris and Leave from the podium she would probably end up being booed and would lose a no confidence vote within a weekStark_Dawning said:
May should sack Boris from the podium. It would make great theatre and be one of the most electrifying political events of modern times.williamglenn said:May should do a conference address in the same vein as her famous ‘nasty party’ speech, disown the promises of the Leave campaign and hang Boris out to dry.
Sadly Secretary Johnson has repeatedly demonstrated that he is unable to put the national interest ahead of his own desires. Someone who is unable to do that has no place in my government - no place in any government. That is why, shortly before this speech, I asked him to resign as Foreign Secretary.
As for the 'voters' yougov last week had 52% wanting a transition period of no more than 2 years and 26% wanted no transition period at all
0 -
Exactly. As Shakespeare put it -Philip_Thompson said:The idea that if Boris takes over now he will be responsible for any Brexit issues so he should wait is utterly absurd.
Boris is inextricably tied to Brexit. The referendum saw to that. There is no way to dodge responsibility just by not being the one in charge so he may as well be the one in charge.
View it as like Game Theory. There's only a few possible plausible possibilities.
1: May stays, Brexit is a success. May wins and recovers her reputation.
2: May stays, Brexit is a failure. May and Boris are destroyed.
3: May goes now, Boris takes over - Boris is responsible and will live or die on his own success.
4: May goes now, someone else takes over. Boris has probably missed his window of opportunity.
I don't see a path that leads from May staying to Boris.
"There is a tide in the affairs of men, Which taken at the flood, leads on to fortune. Omitted, all the voyage of their life is bound in shallows and in miseries."0 -
That is a matter for Spain, an unwise decision they may have taken in banning the referendum but that is there decision, same as Spain largely stayed out of indyref 2014 apart from the odd statement supporting the British government positionPhilip_Thompson said:I'm surprised by the lack of discussion of what's going on in Catalonia. We seem to be on the brink of a possible civil war or velvet revolution right on our doorsteps.
0 -
NOT in publicHYUFD said:
Boris is doing nothing but ensure the argument that the transition period should be 2 years maximum and no more is heard and as Foreign Secretary that is entirely in accordance with his remit.Charles said:
The people have voted for Leave, and Leave we will. But at a time when the country is engaged in difficult and complicated negotiations personal ambition must take a back seat. As politicians we must never forget that we serve the voters and the national interest first and foremost: we can, and should, debate long and hard behind doors but in public we must speak with one voice.HYUFD said:
If she denounced Boris and Leave from the podium she would probably end up being booed and would lose a no confidence vote within a weekStark_Dawning said:
May should sack Boris from the podium. It would make great theatre and be one of the most electrifying political events of modern times.williamglenn said:May should do a conference address in the same vein as her famous ‘nasty party’ speech, disown the promises of the Leave campaign and hang Boris out to dry.
Sadly Secretary Johnson has repeatedly demonstrated that he is unable to put the national interest ahead of his own desires. Someone who is unable to do that has no place in my government - no place in any government. That is why, shortly before this speech, I asked him to resign as Foreign Secretary.
As for the 'voters' yougov last week had 52% wanting a transition period of no more than 2 years and 26% wanted no transition period at all0 -
Recidivist said:
Not true - if he is cut out of the negotiations he can argue he was not able to ensure any deal or not happened as the people desired. Yes, some will never forgive him, but if he is out he has some level of flexibility he does not have now.Philip_Thompson said:The idea that if Boris takes over now he will be responsible for any Brexit issues so he should wait is utterly absurd.
Boris is inextricably tied to Brexit. The referendum saw to that. There is no way to dodge responsibility just by not being the one in charge so he may as well be the one in charge.0 -
Charles said:
The people have voted for Leave, and Leave we will. But at a time when the country is engaged in difficult and complicated negotiations personal ambition must take a back seat. As politicians we must never forget that we serve the voters and the national interest first and foremost: we can, and should, debate long and hard behind doors but in public we must speak with one voice.HYUFD said:
If she denounced Boris and Leave from the podium she would probably end up being booed and would lose a no confidence vote within a weekStark_Dawning said:
May should sack Boris from the podium. It would make great theatre and be one of the most electrifying political events of modern times.williamglenn said:May should do a conference address in the same vein as her famous ‘nasty party’ speech, disown the promises of the Leave campaign and hang Boris out to dry.
Sadly Secretary Johnson has repeatedly demonstrated that he is unable to put the national interest ahead of his own desires. Someone who is unable to do that has no place in my government - no place in any government. That is why, shortly before this speech, I asked him to resign as Foreign Secretary.
If she pulled that one, it would be like pressing the nuclear button with the missiles aimed at herself.
No-one would.... *thinks about GE2017* ... ok it's a possibility.
0 -
No, because 1 is flawed. May stays, Brexit is a success. Despite this success, the party knows it needs a fresh face for GE 2021/2 and ditches her.Recidivist said:
Exactly. As Shakespeare put it -Philip_Thompson said:The idea that if Boris takes over now he will be responsible for any Brexit issues so he should wait is utterly absurd.
Boris is inextricably tied to Brexit. The referendum saw to that. There is no way to dodge responsibility just by not being the one in charge so he may as well be the one in charge.
View it as like Game Theory. There's only a few possible plausible possibilities.
1: May stays, Brexit is a success. May wins and recovers her reputation.
2: May stays, Brexit is a failure. May and Boris are destroyed.
3: May goes now, Boris takes over - Boris is responsible and will live or die on his own success.
4: May goes now, someone else takes over. Boris has probably missed his window of opportunity.
I don't see a path that leads from May staying to Boris.
"There is a tide in the affairs of men, Which taken at the flood, leads on to fortune. Omitted, all the voyage of their life is bound in shallows and in miseries."0 -
It would make her more popular.MarkHopkins said:Charles said:
The people have voted for Leave, and Leave we will. But at a time when the country is engaged in difficult and complicated negotiations personal ambition must take a back seat. As politicians we must never forget that we serve the voters and the national interest first and foremost: we can, and should, debate long and hard behind doors but in public we must speak with one voice.HYUFD said:
If she denounced Boris and Leave from the podium she would probably end up being booed and would lose a no confidence vote within a weekStark_Dawning said:
May should sack Boris from the podium. It would make great theatre and be one of the most electrifying political events of modern times.williamglenn said:May should do a conference address in the same vein as her famous ‘nasty party’ speech, disown the promises of the Leave campaign and hang Boris out to dry.
Sadly Secretary Johnson has repeatedly demonstrated that he is unable to put the national interest ahead of his own desires. Someone who is unable to do that has no place in my government - no place in any government. That is why, shortly before this speech, I asked him to resign as Foreign Secretary.
If she pulled that one, it would be like pressing the nuclear button with the missiles aimed at herself.
No-one would.... *thinks about GE2017* ... ok it's a possibility.
Iron Lady redux.0 -
He is Foreign Secretary, he is perfectly entitled to reassure the almost 80% of Tory voters who now back Leave and Brexit that a transition period will not lead to Remain by the back door while he is in governmentCharles said:
NOT in publicHYUFD said:
Boris is doing nothing but ensure the argument that the transition period should be 2 years maximum and no more is heard and as Foreign Secretary that is entirely in accordance with his remit.Charles said:
The people have voted for Leave, and Leave we will. But at a time when the country is engaged in difficult and complicated negotiations personal ambition must take a back seat. As politicians we must never forget that we serve the voters and the national interest first and foremost: we can, and should, debate long and hard behind doors but in public we must speak with one voice.HYUFD said:
If she denounced Boris and Leave from the podium she would probably end up being booed and would lose a no confidence vote within a weekStark_Dawning said:
May should sack Boris from the podium. It would make great theatre and be one of the most electrifying political events of modern times.williamglenn said:May should do a conference address in the same vein as her famous ‘nasty party’ speech, disown the promises of the Leave campaign and hang Boris out to dry.
Sadly Secretary Johnson has repeatedly demonstrated that he is unable to put the national interest ahead of his own desires. Someone who is unable to do that has no place in my government - no place in any government. That is why, shortly before this speech, I asked him to resign as Foreign Secretary.
As for the 'voters' yougov last week had 52% wanting a transition period of no more than 2 years and 26% wanted no transition period at all0 -
I genuinely can't say although on reflection I think I disagree with you. I have no idea if he is lazy but I do believe he is principled. I just believe those principles are utterly warped and have no place in a modern western society.stevef said:
That description also suits Corbyn multiplied by ten.Richard_Tyndall said:
As I am not a Tory party member Boris is neither toxic nor sweet to me. However even though he was a Brexiteer I certainly do not think he is fit to be PM. He makes far too many mistakes, appears to flit back and forth between positions of principle until you realise he has no principle and is by all accounts, too lazy to actually master any brief.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I am a converted remainer but agree, Boris has gone too farScrapheap_as_was said:Boris is toxic to a Tory Remainer like me. I'd vote IDS before him now.... and I'd sooner cheer on Chelsea than do that.
How any one could ever think that such an individual is fit to be PM is beyond me.
Neither Boris nor Corbyn are fit to be PM.0 -
Of course it is a matter for Spain and our government shouldn't intervene but that doesn't mean we can't discuss it.HYUFD said:
That is a matter for Spain, an unwise decision they may have taken in banning the referendum but that is there decision, same as Spain largely stayed out of indyref 2014 apart from the odd statement supporting the British government positionPhilip_Thompson said:I'm surprised by the lack of discussion of what's going on in Catalonia. We seem to be on the brink of a possible civil war or velvet revolution right on our doorsteps.
We discuss American politics any time anything interesting is happening but this doesn't seem to be grabbing people's interest and its right on our doorstep.0 -
We had one this morningHYUFD said:
That is a matter for Spain, an unwise decision they may have taken in banning the referendum but that is there decision, same as Spain largely stayed out of indyref 2014 apart from the odd statement supporting the British government positionPhilip_Thompson said:I'm surprised by the lack of discussion of what's going on in Catalonia. We seem to be on the brink of a possible civil war or velvet revolution right on our doorsteps.
0 -
We have been discussing it. But there is a consensus that it is one of those utterly intractable problems which appears to have its own momentum and is steamrolling inexorably towards bloodshed.Philip_Thompson said:I'm surprised by the lack of discussion of what's going on in Catalonia. We seem to be on the brink of a possible civil war or velvet revolution right on our doorsteps.
At that point it kind of went past the discussion stage. All we can do is look on in horror.0 -
It was discussed a bit in the last thread I believe but I expect there will be rather more discussion tomorrow night after the resultPhilip_Thompson said:
Of course it is a matter for Spain and our government shouldn't intervene but that doesn't mean we can't discuss it.HYUFD said:
That is a matter for Spain, an unwise decision they may have taken in banning the referendum but that is there decision, same as Spain largely stayed out of indyref 2014 apart from the odd statement supporting the British government positionPhilip_Thompson said:I'm surprised by the lack of discussion of what's going on in Catalonia. We seem to be on the brink of a possible civil war or velvet revolution right on our doorsteps.
We discuss American politics any time anything interesting is happening but this doesn't seem to be grabbing people's interest and its right on our doorstep.0 -
Beautifully put; he certainly had a way with words did that Will Shakespeare!Recidivist said:
Exactly. As Shakespeare put it -Philip_Thompson said:The idea that if Boris takes over now he will be responsible for any Brexit issues so he should wait is utterly absurd.
Boris is inextricably tied to Brexit. The referendum saw to that. There is no way to dodge responsibility just by not being the one in charge so he may as well be the one in charge.
View it as like Game Theory. There's only a few possible plausible possibilities.
1: May stays, Brexit is a success. May wins and recovers her reputation.
2: May stays, Brexit is a failure. May and Boris are destroyed.
3: May goes now, Boris takes over - Boris is responsible and will live or die on his own success.
4: May goes now, someone else takes over. Boris has probably missed his window of opportunity.
I don't see a path that leads from May staying to Boris.
"There is a tide in the affairs of men, Which taken at the flood, leads on to fortune. Omitted, all the voyage of their life is bound in shallows and in miseries."0 -
Seems to me Boris has broken Cabinet collective responsibility. The words May said in Florence, which presumably accurately represent what was agreed by that morning's Cabinet were:HYUFD said:
He is Foreign Secretary, he is perfectly entitled to reassure the almost 80% of Tory voters who now back Leave and Brexit that a transition period will not lead to Remain by the back door while he is in governmentCharles said:
NOT in publicHYUFD said:
Boris is doing nothing but ensure the argument that the transition period should be 2 years maximum and no more is heard and as Foreign Secretary that is entirely in accordance with his remit.Charles said:
The people have voted for Leave, and Leave we will. But at a time when the country is engaged in difficult and complicated negotiations personal ambition must take a back seat. As politicians we must never forget that we serve the voters and the national interest first and foremost: we can, and should, debate long and hard behind doors but in public we must speak with one voice.HYUFD said:
If she denounced Boris and Leave from the podium she would probably end up being booed and would lose a no confidence vote within a weekStark_Dawning said:
May should sack Boris from the podium. It would make great theatre and be one of the most electrifying political events of modern times.williamglenn said:May should do a conference address in the same vein as her famous ‘nasty party’ speech, disown the promises of the Leave campaign and hang Boris out to dry.
Sadly Secretary Johnson has repeatedly demonstrated that he is unable to put the national interest ahead of his own desires. Someone who is unable to do that has no place in my government - no place in any government. That is why, shortly before this speech, I asked him to resign as Foreign Secretary.
As for the 'voters' yougov last week had 52% wanting a transition period of no more than 2 years and 26% wanted no transition period at all
"As of today, these considerations point to an implementation period of around two years."
Boris has stated it cannot be "a second more" than two years.
0 -
Although at the moment it looks like the next general election will be Boris v Corbyn, hard Brexit v Socialism (or Alien v Predator for centrist Remainers)Richard_Tyndall said:
I genuinely can't say although on reflection I think I disagree with you. I have no idea if he is lazy but I do believe he is principled. I just believe those principles are utterly warped and have no place in a modern western society.stevef said:
That description also suits Corbyn multiplied by ten.Richard_Tyndall said:
As I am not a Tory party member Boris is neither toxic nor sweet to me. However even though he was a Brexiteer I certainly do not think he is fit to be PM. He makes far too many mistakes, appears to flit back and forth between positions of principle until you realise he has no principle and is by all accounts, too lazy to actually master any brief.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I am a converted remainer but agree, Boris has gone too farScrapheap_as_was said:Boris is toxic to a Tory Remainer like me. I'd vote IDS before him now.... and I'd sooner cheer on Chelsea than do that.
How any one could ever think that such an individual is fit to be PM is beyond me.
Neither Boris nor Corbyn are fit to be PM.0 -
... but too late for Boris by then.rottenborough said:
No, because 1 is flawed. May stays, Brexit is a success. Despite this success, the party knows it needs a fresh face for GE 2021/2 and ditches her.Recidivist said:
Exactly. As Shakespeare put it -Philip_Thompson said:The idea that if Boris takes over now he will be responsible for any Brexit issues so he should wait is utterly absurd.
Boris is inextricably tied to Brexit. The referendum saw to that. There is no way to dodge responsibility just by not being the one in charge so he may as well be the one in charge.
View it as like Game Theory. There's only a few possible plausible possibilities.
1: May stays, Brexit is a success. May wins and recovers her reputation.
2: May stays, Brexit is a failure. May and Boris are destroyed.
3: May goes now, Boris takes over - Boris is responsible and will live or die on his own success.
4: May goes now, someone else takes over. Boris has probably missed his window of opportunity.
I don't see a path that leads from May staying to Boris.
"There is a tide in the affairs of men, Which taken at the flood, leads on to fortune. Omitted, all the voyage of their life is bound in shallows and in miseries."0 -
I have no doubt that Corbyn would go along with any call for a new election. If he was happy to do so when he was 20+ points behind in the polls, he'll certainly do so at level pegging or better (or even off a small deficit, should the Tories recover a bit).justin124 said:
People appear to be missing the point that the changed parliamentary arithmetic since June makes it much more difficult for a Tory PM to call a snap election. If the DUP do not favour such an election, they might prefer to install Corbyn for a limited period. On the other hand, Corbyn may relish the prospect of a replay!ThomasNashe said:
His version of Brexit is not one that could command a consensus. Only requires a few Tory remain MPs with safe seats to rebel ...MikeSmithson said:
How is that general election going to come about? I cannot see the Tories voting for oneThomasNashe said:If Johnson succeeds in deposing May I can't see how he can command the loyalty of enough Tory remainers. A GE would be inevitable.
By contrast, I can't see the DUP putting Corbyn into power - not least because the maths are so tight that even if you ignore their policy differences, Corbyn couldn't be sure of delivering on any promises made to the DUP as they'd have to have SNP, Lib Dem and other backing too.0 -
So he has not contradicted her, just made clear that a transition period of 'around' two years must 'not be a second more' than two yearsrottenborough said:
Seems to me Boris has broken Cabinet collective responsibility. The words May said in Florence, which presumably accurately represent what was agreed by that morning's Cabinet were:HYUFD said:
He is Foreign Secretary, he is perfectly entitled to reassure the almost 80% of Tory voters who now back Leave and Brexit that a transition period will not lead to Remain by the back door while he is in governmentCharles said:
NOT in publicHYUFD said:
Boris is doing nothing but ensure the argument that the transition period should be 2 years maximum and no more is heard and as Foreign Secretary that is entirely in accordance with his remit.Charles said:
The people have voted for Leave, and Leave we will. But at a time when the country is engaged in difficult and complicated negotiations personal ambition must take a back seat. As politicians we must never forget that we serve the voters and the national interest first and foremost: we can, and should, debate long and hard behind doors but in public we must speak with one voice.HYUFD said:
If she denounced Boris and Leave from the podium she would probably end up being booed and would lose a no confidence vote within a weekStark_Dawning said:
May should sack Boris from the podium. It would make great theatre and be one of the most electrifying political events of modern times.williamglenn said:May should do a conference address in the same vein as her famous ‘nasty party’ speech, disown the promises of the Leave campaign and hang Boris out to dry.
Sadly Secretary Johnson has repeatedly demonstrated that he is unable to put the national interest ahead of his own desires. Someone who is unable to do that has no place in my government - no place in any government. That is why, shortly before this speech, I asked him to resign as Foreign Secretary.
As for the 'voters' yougov last week had 52% wanting a transition period of no more than 2 years and 26% wanted no transition period at all
"As of today, these considerations point to an implementation period of around two years."
Boris has stated it cannot be "a second more" than two years.
0 -
I very much doubt that Corbyn is lazy. The trouble is where he puts his energy, the whole reason he gets up in the morning, seems to be around protesting, campaigning, speaking at rallies etc.Richard_Tyndall said:
I genuinely can't say although on reflection I think I disagree with you. I have no idea if he is lazy but I do believe he is principled. I just believe those principles are utterly warped and have no place in a modern western society.stevef said:
That description also suits Corbyn multiplied by ten.Richard_Tyndall said:
As I am not a Tory party member Boris is neither toxic nor sweet to me. However even though he was a Brexiteer I certainly do not think he is fit to be PM. He makes far too many mistakes, appears to flit back and forth between positions of principle until you realise he has no principle and is by all accounts, too lazy to actually master any brief.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I am a converted remainer but agree, Boris has gone too farScrapheap_as_was said:Boris is toxic to a Tory Remainer like me. I'd vote IDS before him now.... and I'd sooner cheer on Chelsea than do that.
How any one could ever think that such an individual is fit to be PM is beyond me.
Neither Boris nor Corbyn are fit to be PM.
I really can't see how he is going to cope, never mind remotely enjoy, endless Cabinet sub-committee meetings and red boxes as PM.0 -
I must have missed that.Richard_Tyndall said:
We have been discussing it. But there is a consensus that it is one of those utterly intractable problems which appears to have its own momentum and is steamrolling inexorably towards bloodshed.Philip_Thompson said:I'm surprised by the lack of discussion of what's going on in Catalonia. We seem to be on the brink of a possible civil war or velvet revolution right on our doorsteps.
At that point it kind of went past the discussion stage. All we can do is look on in horror.
I hope it doesn't lead to bloodshed.0 -
Never say never. I not so sure. Seems to me that Boris is likely to be the only candidate with the charisma and optimism to take on Corbyn.Benpointer said:
... but too late for Boris by then.rottenborough said:
No, because 1 is flawed. May stays, Brexit is a success. Despite this success, the party knows it needs a fresh face for GE 2021/2 and ditches her.Recidivist said:
Exactly. As Shakespeare put it -Philip_Thompson said:The idea that if Boris takes over now he will be responsible for any Brexit issues so he should wait is utterly absurd.
Boris is inextricably tied to Brexit. The referendum saw to that. There is no way to dodge responsibility just by not being the one in charge so he may as well be the one in charge.
View it as like Game Theory. There's only a few possible plausible possibilities.
1: May stays, Brexit is a success. May wins and recovers her reputation.
2: May stays, Brexit is a failure. May and Boris are destroyed.
3: May goes now, Boris takes over - Boris is responsible and will live or die on his own success.
4: May goes now, someone else takes over. Boris has probably missed his window of opportunity.
I don't see a path that leads from May staying to Boris.
"There is a tide in the affairs of men, Which taken at the flood, leads on to fortune. Omitted, all the voyage of their life is bound in shallows and in miseries."0 -
The Spanish government did not ban the referendum. The Spanish courts have declared it illegal, which it is under Spanish law. Indeed, there is no country in Europe where such a referendum would be legal. The criticism of the Spanish government is that it allowed things to get this far. It did not have to be this way. Ten years ago Catalan separatists were a relatively small minority. It is the Partido Popular that has turned them into such a powerful force.HYUFD said:
That is a matter for Spain, an unwise decision they may have taken in banning the referendum but that is there decision, same as Spain largely stayed out of indyref 2014 apart from the odd statement supporting the British government positionPhilip_Thompson said:I'm surprised by the lack of discussion of what's going on in Catalonia. We seem to be on the brink of a possible civil war or velvet revolution right on our doorsteps.
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