politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Conference and its aftermath could be BoJo’s best chance of mo
Comments
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Choose your best team then look at the season's averages for reserves of opening batsman, another batsman, wicket-keeper batsman, fast bowler, spin bowler.Peter_the_Punter said:
Lol! And that's one of the more reasonable picks.SouthamObserver said:
And Gary Ballance is getting his annual last chance.Peter_the_Punter said:Meanwhile, over at Chelmsford, Essex have dismissed Yorkshire to record their tenth win of the season, six more than any other County.
Such dominance might suggest that they would be heavily represented in the Ashes squad, but only Alastair Cook makes it. I agree with the omission of Tom Westley but the failure to give opportunities when the openings were there to Dan Lawrence, Nick Browne and young fast bowling find Jamie Porter has meant that they could not be considered.
And yet they take Malan, who would not get in the Essex team, and Mason Crane, who wouldn't get in some school teams.
Pah.
Given that eight of the England side pick themselves, England Cricket Selector ought to be one of the easiest sporting jobs in the world. You only have to find three players, and a few reserves.
What do they do with their time?
Job done.0 -
Go-Bo-Jo !!!!!!
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Yes.Yorkcity said:
Are Yorkshire safe from relegation ?Peter_the_Punter said:Meanwhile, over at Chelmsford, Essex have dismissed Yorkshire to record their tenth win of the season, six more than any other County.
Such dominance might suggest that they would be heavily represented in the Ashes squad, but only Alastair Cook makes it. I agree with the omission of Tom Westley but the failure to give opportunities when the openings were there to Dan Lawrence, Nick Browne and young fast bowling find Jamie Porter has meant that they could not be considered.
And yet they take Malan, who would not get in the Essex team, and Mason Crane, who wouldn't get in some school teams.
Pah.
I'd be interested to know how much they've paid Kragg Brathwaite for the last two games.
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Agree.bigjohnowls said:
Any sentence with "most Jews" is clearly unacceptable.glw said:
Ken will probably be on the air soon to let us know why this is perfectly reasonable free speech and not anti-semitism.FrancisUrquhart said:Anti-zionist, not antisemitic....will of course be the claim....
Hope this Topple guy is not a party member if he is he should no longer be.0 -
This is the TfL report on their trial of WiFi data collection and analysis:
http://content.tfl.gov.uk/review-tfl-wifi-pilot.pdf
One particular area they analysed was the route passengers took between Waterloo and Kings Cross station (as there is not a direct tube line). The conclusion is a far wider selection of routes than that envisaged,0 -
Are the Conservatives having their conference in Manchester again ?williamglenn said:
Sounds like Manchester 2017 could be the scene of the first battle of the new English civil war.Charles said:You'll all be pleased to know he told me he intends to play a much fuller role in politica in future and will be going to the Tory conference...
They do seem to going to places where nobody votes for them.
My idea was that they should go to the place with their most impressive election result for that year. Which would have seen them in the likes of Cannock, Scunthorpe and Plymouth in recent years. And this year Walsall, Mansfield or Dronfield. The last would be very convenient for TSE.0 -
Without Googling, natch, taking just one change of train:Verulamius said:This is the TfL report on their trial of WiFi data collection and analysis:
http://content.tfl.gov.uk/review-tfl-wifi-pilot.pdf
One particular area they analysed was the route passengers took between Waterloo and Kings Cross station (as there is not a direct tube line). The conclusion is a far wider selection of routes than that envisaged,
Northern line to Leicester Square, then Piccadilly line
Northern line to Euston, then Victoria line
Northern line to Kennington, then Northern line (via Bank)
Northern line to Camden Town, then Northern line (towards Bank)
Jubilee line to London Bridge, then Northern line
Jubilee line to Green Park, then Victoria line
Jubilee line to Green Park, then Piccadilly line
Jubilee line to Baker Street, then Circle line
Bakerloo line to Baker Street, then Circle line
Jubilee line to Baker Street, then Hammersmith & City line
Bakerloo line to Baker Street, then Hammersmith & City line
Jubilee line to Baker Street, then Metropolitan line
Bakerloo line to Baker Street, then Metropolitan line
Bakerloo line to Piccadilly Circus, then Piccadilly line
Bakerloo line to Elephant & Castle, then Northern line
Northern line to Embankment, then Circle line anticlockwise
Bakerloo line to Embankment, then Circle line anticlockwise
Jubilee line to Westminster, then Circle line anticlockwise
Waterloo & City line to Bank, then Northern line (Mon-Sat only)
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Thanks. I saw a write-up on Ars about the trial, and it looks like a very interesting and useful data set for them. I am unconvinced whether selling such data is a good idea.Verulamius said:This is the TfL report on their trial of WiFi data collection and analysis:
http://content.tfl.gov.uk/review-tfl-wifi-pilot.pdf
One particular area they analysed was the route passengers took between Waterloo and Kings Cross station (as there is not a direct tube line). The conclusion is a far wider selection of routes than that envisaged,0 -
They have Ballance and Malan in their 'best team'. They are wrong, though given some of their other bizarre selections you have to be grateful they are not as wrong as they could be.another_richard said:
Choose your best team then look at the season's averages for reserves of opening batsman, another batsman, wicket-keeper batsman, fast bowler, spin bowler.Peter_the_Punter said:
Lol! And that's one of the more reasonable picks.SouthamObserver said:
And Gary Ballance is getting his annual last chance.Peter_the_Punter said:Meanwhile, over at Chelmsford, Essex have dismissed Yorkshire to record their tenth win of the season, six more than any other County.
Such dominance might suggest that they would be heavily represented in the Ashes squad, but only Alastair Cook makes it. I agree with the omission of Tom Westley but the failure to give opportunities when the openings were there to Dan Lawrence, Nick Browne and young fast bowling find Jamie Porter has meant that they could not be considered.
And yet they take Malan, who would not get in the Essex team, and Mason Crane, who wouldn't get in some school teams.
Pah.
Given that eight of the England side pick themselves, England Cricket Selector ought to be one of the easiest sporting jobs in the world. You only have to find three players, and a few reserves.
What do they do with their time?
Job done.
We will just have to win the Ashes with nine players. It's possible. The Aussies have their problems too, although a poor selection process isn't one of them.0 -
Here we go...williamglenn said:There's a big shindig at the Foreign Office tonight at which Johnson and Fox are going to bless the launch of a new 'think tank' called the Institute for Free Trade whose President is Daniel Hannan, and claims such people as Tony Abbott and Michael Howard as its advisers.
There's a Brexit swamp in London that needs draining.
https://twitter.com/RobertsDan/status/9130922776601927680 -
I agree. For that matter, I'm an exhibitor at the Tory conference next week.SouthamObserver said:
Anyone can be invited to anything. The key thing is whether they accept. That said, numerous well-known Labour supporters have spoken at fringe Tory events over the years. Does that make them Tories?Pulpstar said:
https://twitter.com/Pulpstar/status/913062632235655169bigjohnowls said:The Screenshot of the 1 Oct 2017 meeting is made up??
http://evolvepolitics.com/bbcs-laura-kuenssberg-was-invited-to-speak-at-the-tory-conference-by-iain-duncan-smiths-thinktank/
It's just a fact of social media that from time to time someone will make something up and it will run round their mates as believable. We all need to be more sceptical thane used to be, since it's not possible to prevent it altogether.0 -
Sunil, I read the following story and wondered if, having nearly completed the UK's lines, you'd gone further abroad and decided to spice up your journeys:Sunil_Prasannan said:
Without Googling, natch, taking just one change of train:Verulamius said:This is the TfL report on their trial of WiFi data collection and analysis:
http://content.tfl.gov.uk/review-tfl-wifi-pilot.pdf
One particular area they analysed was the route passengers took between Waterloo and Kings Cross station (as there is not a direct tube line). The conclusion is a far wider selection of routes than that envisaged,
(Snip)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-australia-41378190/man-clings-to-train-s-windscreen-wiper-in-australia0 -
You missed the preferred and “quickest” - Bakerloo to Oxford Circus with a cross platform change to the Victoria line.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Without Googling, natch, taking just one change of train:Verulamius said:This is the TfL report on their trial of WiFi data collection and analysis:
http://content.tfl.gov.uk/review-tfl-wifi-pilot.pdf
One particular area they analysed was the route passengers took between Waterloo and Kings Cross station (as there is not a direct tube line). The conclusion is a far wider selection of routes than that envisaged,
Northern line to Leicester Square, then Piccadilly line
Northern line to Euston, then Victoria line
Northern line to Kennington, then Northern line (via Bank)
Northern line to Camden Town, then Northern line (towards Bank)
Jubilee line to London Bridge, then Northern line
Jubilee line to Green Park, then Victoria line
Jubilee line to Green Park, then Piccadilly line
Jubilee line to Baker Street, then Circle line
Bakerloo line to Baker Street, then Circle line
Jubilee line to Baker Street, then Hammersmith & City line
Bakerloo line to Baker Street, then Hammersmith & City line
Jubilee line to Baker Street, then Metropolitan line
Bakerloo line to Baker Street, then Metropolitan line
Bakerloo line to Piccadilly Circus, then Piccadilly line
Bakerloo line to Elephant & Castle, then Northern line
Northern line to Embankment, then Circle line anticlockwise
Bakerloo line to Embankment, then Circle line anticlockwise
Jubilee line to Westminster, then Circle line anticlockwise
Waterloo & City line to Bank, then Northern line (Mon-Sat only)0 -
I saw that and thought - what a drongo!JosiasJessop said:
Sunil, I read the following story and wondered if, having nearly completed the UK's lines, you'd gone further abroad and decided to spice up your journeys:Sunil_Prasannan said:
Without Googling, natch, taking just one change of train:Verulamius said:This is the TfL report on their trial of WiFi data collection and analysis:
http://content.tfl.gov.uk/review-tfl-wifi-pilot.pdf
One particular area they analysed was the route passengers took between Waterloo and Kings Cross station (as there is not a direct tube line). The conclusion is a far wider selection of routes than that envisaged,
(Snip)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-australia-41378190/man-clings-to-train-s-windscreen-wiper-in-australia
I'm disappointed that you didn't spot my "deliberate" omission:
Bakerloo line to Oxford Circus, then Victoria line
Northern line to Euston, then Northern line towards Bank 0 -
Fantastic suggestion. Great to see a continuation of open and positive Brexit not small minded and closed one only. Who could object?williamglenn said:
Here we go...williamglenn said:There's a big shindig at the Foreign Office tonight at which Johnson and Fox are going to bless the launch of a new 'think tank' called the Institute for Free Trade whose President is Daniel Hannan, and claims such people as Tony Abbott and Michael Howard as its advisers.
There's a Brexit swamp in London that needs draining.
https://twitter.com/RobertsDan/status/9130922776601927680 -
I'm rarely in London nowadays, and my knowledge of the operational tube network has decreased somewhat. I can still remember some fairy useless facts through, like they tried widening the Northern Line's city branch tunnels at night, whilst still keeping the tunnel's operational during the daytime! Needless to say, they gave up after a cave-in.Sunil_Prasannan said:
I saw that and thought - what a drongo!JosiasJessop said:
Sunil, I read the following story and wondered if, having nearly completed the UK's lines, you'd gone further abroad and decided to spice up your journeys:Sunil_Prasannan said:
Without Googling, natch, taking just one change of train:Verulamius said:This is the TfL report on their trial of WiFi data collection and analysis:
http://content.tfl.gov.uk/review-tfl-wifi-pilot.pdf
One particular area they analysed was the route passengers took between Waterloo and Kings Cross station (as there is not a direct tube line). The conclusion is a far wider selection of routes than that envisaged,
(Snip)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-australia-41378190/man-clings-to-train-s-windscreen-wiper-in-australia
I'm disappointed that you didn't spot my "deliberate" omission:
Northern line to Euston, then Northern line towards Bank0 -
Time, and events though.AnneJGP said:
Yes, they've lost their way entirely and they will soon be leading the country, I'm afraid.Slackbladder said:
It won't happen. Labour is lost for at least a generation.FrancisUrquhart said:
I only pray that somehow Corbyn totally shoots itself in the foot and the sensible centre left types like yourself can topple him before this turns into left wing Trumpery.SouthamObserver said:
Misery, I'd imagine - and not only those in business. Corbyn and the far-left empower anti-Semites. The comments that the likes of McCluskey and Loach have made this week are sickening. I cannot express the level of despair I feel to see the party I was once a member of descend so deep into the filthy pit of racism. It revolts me.FrancisUrquhart said:
Anti-zionist, not antisemitic....will of course be the claim....TheScreamingEagles said:I am shocked to find that a virulent anti-semite is behind the Laura K story.
twitter.com/JimmyRushmore/status/913029861618405376
I am worried enough about the marxist mob powering the supreme leader, I can only imagine what Jewish business people are going through.
If you sit on the side of the river long enough eventually the bodies of your enemies float by. Alleged Chinese proverb.
It's fairly possible that the next election is over four years and eight months away. that's the same time roughly separating us from the start of 2013, when the Quad was all powerful and Ed was pre bacon sandwich.
If you'd have said then that four years and eight months or so later:-
1) The Quad would all not be MPs
2) Corbyn would be leader of Labour to adoring acclaim and be in the 40's in the polls.
3) The Tories would've won and then lost a majority.
4) Brexit would've been voted for
5) Ed Balls would have Gangnam Style
6) Scotland would've only voted narrowlyish to stay
7)Despite 2 Labour would have half the Tory seat number in Scotland but that those six would be seen as a bit of a triumph from where they were before.
8) Doubling Twitter characters would worry us that Potus one D Trump (who had been recently seen in a golden lift with Farage grinning like a hippo) might entangle himself closer to nuclear war with Kim Jong Un.
- the men in white coats may have been called.
Jezza could get a landslide before Xmas or a Tory BAME and/or LGBT PM could triumph in 2022. A week's a long time, a possible nearly five years, an age.
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The idea that Dan Hannan understands anything about trade negotiations (or any business other than self-promotion) doesn't have any evidence to support it.Philip_Thompson said:Who could object?
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Are you trying to "out-sad" me, Verulamius?Verulamius said:
You missed the preferred and “quickest” - Bakerloo to Oxford Circus with a cross platform change to the Victoria line.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Without Googling, natch, taking just one change of train:Verulamius said:This is the TfL report on their trial of WiFi data collection and analysis:
http://content.tfl.gov.uk/review-tfl-wifi-pilot.pdf
One particular area they analysed was the route passengers took between Waterloo and Kings Cross station (as there is not a direct tube line). The conclusion is a far wider selection of routes than that envisaged,
Northern line to Leicester Square, then Piccadilly line
Northern line to Euston, then Victoria line
Northern line to Kennington, then Northern line (via Bank)
Northern line to Camden Town, then Northern line (towards Bank)
Jubilee line to London Bridge, then Northern line
Jubilee line to Green Park, then Victoria line
Jubilee line to Green Park, then Piccadilly line
Jubilee line to Baker Street, then Circle line
Bakerloo line to Baker Street, then Circle line
Jubilee line to Baker Street, then Hammersmith & City line
Bakerloo line to Baker Street, then Hammersmith & City line
Jubilee line to Baker Street, then Metropolitan line
Bakerloo line to Baker Street, then Metropolitan line
Bakerloo line to Piccadilly Circus, then Piccadilly line
Bakerloo line to Elephant & Castle, then Northern line
Northern line to Embankment, then Circle line anticlockwise
Bakerloo line to Embankment, then Circle line anticlockwise
Jubilee line to Westminster, then Circle line anticlockwise
Waterloo & City line to Bank, then Northern line (Mon-Sat only) 0 -
On the important subject of Twitter, the German Foreign Office has taken a positive view:welshowl said:
Time, and events though.AnneJGP said:
Yes, they've lost their way entirely and they will soon be leading the country, I'm afraid.Slackbladder said:
It won't happen. Labour is lost for at least a generation.FrancisUrquhart said:
I only pray that somehow Corbyn totally shoots itself in the foot and the sensible centre left types like yourself can topple him before this turns into left wing Trumpery.SouthamObserver said:
Misery, I'd imagine - and not only those in business. Corbyn and the far-left empower anti-Semites. The comments that the likes of McCluskey and Loach have made this week are sickening. I cannot express the level of despair I feel to see the party I was once a member of descend so deep into the filthy pit of racism. It revolts me.FrancisUrquhart said:
Anti-zionist, not antisemitic....will of course be the claim....TheScreamingEagles said:I am shocked to find that a virulent anti-semite is behind the Laura K story.
twitter.com/JimmyRushmore/status/913029861618405376
I am worried enough about the marxist mob powering the supreme leader, I can only imagine what Jewish business people are going through.
If you sit on the side of the river long enough eventually the bodies of your enemies float by. Alleged Chinese proverb.
It's fairly possible that the next election is over four years and eight months away. that's the same time roughly separating us from the start of 2013, when the Quad was all powerful and Ed was pre bacon sandwich.
If you'd have said then that four years and eight months or so later:-
1) The Quad would all not be MPs
2) Corbyn would be leader of Labour to adoring acclaim and be in the 40's in the polls.
3) The Tories would've won and then lost a majority.
4) Brexit would've been voted for
5) Ed Balls would have Gangnam Style
6) Scotland would've only voted narrowlyish to stay
7)Despite 2 Labour would have half the Tory seat number in Scotland but that those six would be seen as a bit of a triumph from where they were before.
8) Doubling Twitter characters would worry us that Potus one D Trump (who had been recently seen in a golden lift with Farage grinning like a hippo) might entangle himself closer to nuclear war with Kim Jong Un.
- the men in white coats may have been called.
Jezza could get a landslide before Xmas or a Tory BAME and/or LGBT PM could triumph in 2022. A week's a long time, a possible nearly five years, an age.
https://twitter.com/GermanyDiplo/status/9130555914294394880 -
You've not provided any evidence against just your own bile and hatred.williamglenn said:
The idea that Dan Hannan understands anything about trade negotiations (or any business other than self-promotion) doesn't have any evidence to support it.Philip_Thompson said:Who could object?
Do you object to opening our borders to free trade?0 -
Wow, thank you for that. As someone who travels between Waterloo and Arsenal on a regular basis I think my instinct would be Northern Line to Leicester Square and then the Piccadilly Line. But the change between the Bakerloo and Victoria at Oxford Circus is quicker (and on the flat, I think) so that might be why that route is the most popular.Verulamius said:This is the TfL report on their trial of WiFi data collection and analysis:
http://content.tfl.gov.uk/review-tfl-wifi-pilot.pdf
One particular area they analysed was the route passengers took between Waterloo and Kings Cross station (as there is not a direct tube line). The conclusion is a far wider selection of routes than that envisaged,
I would like to meet the people who went via London Bridge, Bank and Liverpool Street - but I guess it might have been at a time of disruption.0 -
Didn't know that! I do know the original route was Stockwell to King William Street, and that a station called City Road (located between Old Street and Angel) was closed in 1922 after only 21 years.JosiasJessop said:
I'm rarely in London nowadays, and my knowledge of the operational tube network has decreased somewhat. I can still remember some fairy useless facts through, like they tried widening the Northern Line's city branch tunnels at night, whilst still keeping the tunnel's operational during the daytime! Needless to say, they gave up after a cave-in.Sunil_Prasannan said:
I saw that and thought - what a drongo!JosiasJessop said:
Sunil, I read the following story and wondered if, having nearly completed the UK's lines, you'd gone further abroad and decided to spice up your journeys:Sunil_Prasannan said:
Without Googling, natch, taking just one change of train:Verulamius said:This is the TfL report on their trial of WiFi data collection and analysis:
http://content.tfl.gov.uk/review-tfl-wifi-pilot.pdf
One particular area they analysed was the route passengers took between Waterloo and Kings Cross station (as there is not a direct tube line). The conclusion is a far wider selection of routes than that envisaged,
(Snip)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-australia-41378190/man-clings-to-train-s-windscreen-wiper-in-australia
I'm disappointed that you didn't spot my "deliberate" omission:
Northern line to Euston, then Northern line towards Bank0 -
Do you honestly believe most Leave voters were doing so on the basis of "free trade"?Philip_Thompson said:
Fantastic suggestion. Great to see a continuation of open and positive Brexit not small minded and closed one only. Who could object?williamglenn said:
Here we go...williamglenn said:There's a big shindig at the Foreign Office tonight at which Johnson and Fox are going to bless the launch of a new 'think tank' called the Institute for Free Trade whose President is Daniel Hannan, and claims such people as Tony Abbott and Michael Howard as its advisers.
There's a Brexit swamp in London that needs draining.
https://twitter.com/RobertsDan/status/9130922776601927680 -
No Boris will not move. He does not want to be burdened with the Brexit talks as he wants May and Davis to carry the blame with Leavers and members for concessions made and money given on that and in any case he knows the EU would not negotiate with him anyway.
He will make his move as soon as we have left the EU in April 2019 and will present himself as the candidate to ensure that once the transition period is up we really do end free movement and leave the single market and customs union.0 -
I know a number like myself did and I don't care what most Leave voters were thinking that's last years battle. I want to fight for what I believe in not what someone else does.Danny565 said:
Do you honestly believe most Leave voters were doing so on the basis of "free trade"?Philip_Thompson said:
Fantastic suggestion. Great to see a continuation of open and positive Brexit not small minded and closed one only. Who could object?williamglenn said:
Here we go...williamglenn said:There's a big shindig at the Foreign Office tonight at which Johnson and Fox are going to bless the launch of a new 'think tank' called the Institute for Free Trade whose President is Daniel Hannan, and claims such people as Tony Abbott and Michael Howard as its advisers.
There's a Brexit swamp in London that needs draining.
https://twitter.com/RobertsDan/status/9130922776601927680 -
The tunnels were enlarged by removing several of the cast iron segments from each tunnel ring, excavating a void behind to the required new diameter and reinstalling the segments with additional packing spacers. The northern section of the C&SLR between Euston and Moorgate was closed from 8 August 1922, but the rest of the line remained open with enlargement works taking place at night.[62] A collapse on 27 November 1923 caused when a train hit temporary shoring on the incomplete excavations near Elephant & Castle station filled the tunnel with soil.[62] The line was briefly operated in two parts, but was completely closed on 28 November 1923.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Didn't know that! I do know the original route was Stockwell to King William Street, and that a station called City Road (located between Old Street and Angel) was closed in 1922 after only 21 years.JosiasJessop said:
I'm rarely in London nowadays, and my knowledge of the operational tube network has decreased somewhat. I can still remember some fairy useless facts through, like they tried widening the Northern Line's city branch tunnels at night, whilst still keeping the tunnel's operational during the daytime! Needless to say, they gave up after a cave-in.Sunil_Prasannan said:
I saw that and thought - what a drongo!JosiasJessop said:
Sunil, I read the following story and wondered if, having nearly completed the UK's lines, you'd gone further abroad and decided to spice up your journeys:Sunil_Prasannan said:
Without Googling, natch, taking just one change of train:Verulamius said:This is the TfL report on their trial of WiFi data collection and analysis:
http://content.tfl.gov.uk/review-tfl-wifi-pilot.pdf
One particular area they analysed was the route passengers took between Waterloo and Kings Cross station (as there is not a direct tube line). The conclusion is a far wider selection of routes than that envisaged,
(Snip)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-australia-41378190/man-clings-to-train-s-windscreen-wiper-in-australia
I'm disappointed that you didn't spot my "deliberate" omission:
Northern line to Euston, then Northern line towards Bank
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_and_South_London_Railway#Reconstruction.2C_connections_and_extension0 -
No way according to Survation the Tories poll worse against Corbyn with Hammond than under May and Gove polls even worse than Hammond.Pulpstar said:Looking at the de facto Tory options -
The only sensible choice for the country appears to my mind to be Phil Hammond. A steady pair of hands to guide us through a tricky Brexit... his chancellor should be a leaver though, and the only name I can think for the job is Gove.
Hammond PM, Gove chancellor with Lidington up to Home, and Rudd across to Foreign Secretary.
Boris is the only leadership hopeful who took the Tory voteshare above what it was under May in the same poll0 -
Many people were conned by lies about existing trade policy peddled by the likes of Dan Hannan and James Cleverly. Many of the trade barriers they point to don't exist in the first place so the whole thing just becomes an exercise in propaganda rather than a serious policy proposal.Philip_Thompson said:
I know a number like myself did and I don't care what most Leave voters were thinking that's last years battle. I want to fight for what I believe in not what someone else does.Danny565 said:
Do you honestly believe most Leave voters were doing so on the basis of "free trade"?Philip_Thompson said:
Fantastic suggestion. Great to see a continuation of open and positive Brexit not small minded and closed one only. Who could object?williamglenn said:
Here we go...williamglenn said:There's a big shindig at the Foreign Office tonight at which Johnson and Fox are going to bless the launch of a new 'think tank' called the Institute for Free Trade whose President is Daniel Hannan, and claims such people as Tony Abbott and Michael Howard as its advisers.
There's a Brexit swamp in London that needs draining.
https://twitter.com/RobertsDan/status/9130922776601927680 -
We are not doing it on our own, Trudeau's Canada is right besides us against BoeingSouthamObserver said:Ambitious to be threatening retaliatory action against a big US company with lots of friends in very high places at the same time as marching towards a cliff edge Brexit:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/bombardier-michael-fallon-boeing-donald-trump-commerce-tariff-defence-secretary-uk-government-a7969676.html?amp0 -
Dominic Cummings accusing David Davis of lying to parliament:
https://twitter.com/odysseanproject/status/9130982677764915210 -
And the sad thing is if it had VP fined itself to trade it would have been great.SouthamObserver said:
Yep ...foxinsoxuk said:
An interesting thread on aerospace and trade here, and the origins of this dispute:SouthamObserver said:
It also shows how post-Brexit UK will be vulnerable to this kind of action from protectionist countries like the US. We do not have the leverage the EU has.foxinsoxuk said:
It shows that free trade areas such as NAFTA are no guarantee of free trade, and also need independent dispute oversight.SouthamObserver said:Ambitious to be threatening retaliatory action against a big US company with lots of friends in very high places at the same time as marching towards a cliff edge Brexit:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/bombardier-michael-fallon-boeing-donald-trump-commerce-tariff-defence-secretary-uk-government-a7969676.html?amp
https://twitter.com/ottocrat/status/912998997316513792
And this is where being an EU member is so important. The EU has the weight to defend itself. We can retaliate
The UK acting alone can’t take on the US. This is why it lost its post-war lead in civil aviation. https://academic.oup.com/ahr/article/113/1/151/41355/Jeffrey-A-Engel-Cold-War-at-30-000-Feet-The-Anglo … /
The level of delusion among the Brexit right is matched only by the delusion you see on the Corbyn left. And those are the two choices this country now has.
But ambitious pols had ambitions. And our paths diverged0 -
Mornington Crescent !Sunil_Prasannan said:
Without Googling, natch, taking just one change of train:Verulamius said:This is the TfL report on their trial of WiFi data collection and analysis:
http://content.tfl.gov.uk/review-tfl-wifi-pilot.pdf
One particular area they analysed was the route passengers took between Waterloo and Kings Cross station (as there is not a direct tube line). The conclusion is a far wider selection of routes than that envisaged,
Northern line to Leicester Square, then Piccadilly line
Northern line to Euston, then Victoria line
Northern line to Kennington, then Northern line (via Bank)
Northern line to Camden Town, then Northern line (towards Bank)
Jubilee line to London Bridge, then Northern line
Jubilee line to Green Park, then Victoria line
Jubilee line to Green Park, then Piccadilly line
Jubilee line to Baker Street, then Circle line
Bakerloo line to Baker Street, then Circle line
Jubilee line to Baker Street, then Hammersmith & City line
Bakerloo line to Baker Street, then Hammersmith & City line
Jubilee line to Baker Street, then Metropolitan line
Bakerloo line to Baker Street, then Metropolitan line
Bakerloo line to Piccadilly Circus, then Piccadilly line
Bakerloo line to Elephant & Castle, then Northern line
Northern line to Embankment, then Circle line anticlockwise
Bakerloo line to Embankment, then Circle line anticlockwise
Jubilee line to Westminster, then Circle line anticlockwise
Waterloo & City line to Bank, then Northern line (Mon-Sat only)0 -
It had a parliament, commission, council and court from the beginning. We joined a political union for political reasons. It was never confined to trade, and if it were, it wouldn't have succeeded.Charles said:
And the sad thing is if it had VP fined itself to trade it would have been great.SouthamObserver said:
Yep ...foxinsoxuk said:
An interesting thread on aerospace and trade here, and the origins of this dispute:SouthamObserver said:
It also shows how post-Brexit UK will be vulnerable to this kind of action from protectionist countries like the US. We do not have the leverage the EU has.foxinsoxuk said:
It shows that free trade areas such as NAFTA are no guarantee of free trade, and also need independent dispute oversight.SouthamObserver said:Ambitious to be threatening retaliatory action against a big US company with lots of friends in very high places at the same time as marching towards a cliff edge Brexit:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/bombardier-michael-fallon-boeing-donald-trump-commerce-tariff-defence-secretary-uk-government-a7969676.html?amp
https://twitter.com/ottocrat/status/912998997316513792
And this is where being an EU member is so important. The EU has the weight to defend itself. We can retaliate
The UK acting alone can’t take on the US. This is why it lost its post-war lead in civil aviation. https://academic.oup.com/ahr/article/113/1/151/41355/Jeffrey-A-Engel-Cold-War-at-30-000-Feet-The-Anglo … /
The level of delusion among the Brexit right is matched only by the delusion you see on the Corbyn left. And those are the two choices this country now has.
But ambitious pols had ambitions. And our paths diverged0 -
IIRC there has been a bit of history regarding the US authorities giving preferential treatment to Boeing. For example:HYUFD said:
We are not doing it on our own, Trudeau's Canada is right besides us against BoeingSouthamObserver said:Ambitious to be threatening retaliatory action against a big US company with lots of friends in very high places at the same time as marching towards a cliff edge Brexit:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/bombardier-michael-fallon-boeing-donald-trump-commerce-tariff-defence-secretary-uk-government-a7969676.html?amp
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KC-X
The EU wasn't much help in that story.0 -
Yes another example of the EU's bark being less than its biteanother_richard said:
IIRC there has been a bit of history regarding the US authorities giving preferential treatment to Boeing. For example:HYUFD said:
We are not doing it on our own, Trudeau's Canada is right besides us against BoeingSouthamObserver said:Ambitious to be threatening retaliatory action against a big US company with lots of friends in very high places at the same time as marching towards a cliff edge Brexit:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/bombardier-michael-fallon-boeing-donald-trump-commerce-tariff-defence-secretary-uk-government-a7969676.html?amp
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KC-X
The EU wasn't much help in that story.0 -
Weren't the first European elections in 1979 ?williamglenn said:
It had a parliament, commission, council and court from the beginning. We joined a political union for political reasons. It was never confined to trade, and if it were, it wouldn't have succeeded.Charles said:
And the sad thing is if it had VP fined itself to trade it would have been great.SouthamObserver said:
Yep ...foxinsoxuk said:
An interesting thread on aerospace and trade here, and the origins of this dispute:SouthamObserver said:
It also shows how post-Brexit UK will be vulnerable to this kind of action from protectionist countries like the US. We do not have the leverage the EU has.foxinsoxuk said:
It shows that free trade areas such as NAFTA are no guarantee of free trade, and also need independent dispute oversight.SouthamObserver said:Ambitious to be threatening retaliatory action against a big US company with lots of friends in very high places at the same time as marching towards a cliff edge Brexit:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/bombardier-michael-fallon-boeing-donald-trump-commerce-tariff-defence-secretary-uk-government-a7969676.html?amp
https://twitter.com/ottocrat/status/912998997316513792
And this is where being an EU member is so important. The EU has the weight to defend itself. We can retaliate
The UK acting alone can’t take on the US. This is why it lost its post-war lead in civil aviation. https://academic.oup.com/ahr/article/113/1/151/41355/Jeffrey-A-Engel-Cold-War-at-30-000-Feet-The-Anglo … /
The level of delusion among the Brexit right is matched only by the delusion you see on the Corbyn left. And those are the two choices this country now has.
But ambitious pols had ambitions. And our paths diverged
0 -
Of course Dominic '£350 million a week for the NHS' Cummings could never lie!williamglenn said:Dominic Cummings accusing David Davis of lying to parliament:
https://twitter.com/odysseanproject/status/9130982677764915210 -
Canada are thinking of cancelling a big order for F-16s, IIRCHYUFD said:
We are not doing it on our own, Trudeau's Canada is right besides us against BoeingSouthamObserver said:Ambitious to be threatening retaliatory action against a big US company with lots of friends in very high places at the same time as marching towards a cliff edge Brexit:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/bombardier-michael-fallon-boeing-donald-trump-commerce-tariff-defence-secretary-uk-government-a7969676.html?amp0 -
Yes, but it existed before then. Having direct elections was a step towards federalism.another_richard said:
Weren't the first European elections in 1979 ?williamglenn said:
It had a parliament, commission, council and court from the beginning. We joined a political union for political reasons. It was never confined to trade, and if it were, it wouldn't have succeeded.Charles said:
And the sad thing is if it had VP fined itself to trade it would have been great.SouthamObserver said:
Yep ...foxinsoxuk said:
An interesting thread on aerospace and trade here, and the origins of this dispute:SouthamObserver said:
It also shows how post-Brexit UK will be vulnerable to this kind of action from protectionist countries like the US. We do not have the leverage the EU has.foxinsoxuk said:
It shows that free trade areas such as NAFTA are no guarantee of free trade, and also need independent dispute oversight.SouthamObserver said:Ambitious to be threatening retaliatory action against a big US company with lots of friends in very high places at the same time as marching towards a cliff edge Brexit:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/bombardier-michael-fallon-boeing-donald-trump-commerce-tariff-defence-secretary-uk-government-a7969676.html?amp
https://twitter.com/ottocrat/status/912998997316513792
And this is where being an EU member is so important. The EU has the weight to defend itself. We can retaliate
The UK acting alone can’t take on the US. This is why it lost its post-war lead in civil aviation. https://academic.oup.com/ahr/article/113/1/151/41355/Jeffrey-A-Engel-Cold-War-at-30-000-Feet-The-Anglo … /
The level of delusion among the Brexit right is matched only by the delusion you see on the Corbyn left. And those are the two choices this country now has.
But ambitious pols had ambitions. And our paths diverged0 -
Pedantically, complete surviving works of Tacitus, or possibly complete surviving works of Tacitus except the manuscripts in the Vatican library which the church suppresses because of the unflattering light they cast on the origins of Christianity. I was on a paleography course taught by the Vatican librarian a bit ago. I asked him about that - he stonewalled by saying that the mss. did not exist, but he would obv have to give me that answer even if they did.Morris_Dancer said:Not quite current events, but I finished the Complete Works of Tacitus today, which is largely concerned with the political and military turmoil of the first century AD. Quite good, a broadsheet to Suetonius' tabloid, but he's not afraid of enormous sentences that can end up being a bit difficult to follow. Worth reading, but probably not as an early book for someone new to classical history.
0 -
On the other hand, when the US pulled the plug on GE / Rolls Royce's alternative F136 engine for the F35, we did nothing.HYUFD said:
Yes another example of the EU's bark being less than its biteanother_richard said:
IIRC there has been a bit of history regarding the US authorities giving preferential treatment to Boeing. For example:HYUFD said:
We are not doing it on our own, Trudeau's Canada is right besides us against BoeingSouthamObserver said:Ambitious to be threatening retaliatory action against a big US company with lots of friends in very high places at the same time as marching towards a cliff edge Brexit:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/bombardier-michael-fallon-boeing-donald-trump-commerce-tariff-defence-secretary-uk-government-a7969676.html?amp
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KC-X
The EU wasn't much help in that story.0 -
England wickets Topple.bigjohnowls said:
Any sentence with "most Jews" is clearly unacceptable.glw said:
Ken will probably be on the air soon to let us know why this is perfectly reasonable free speech and not anti-semitism.FrancisUrquhart said:Anti-zionist, not antisemitic....will of course be the claim....
Hope this Topple guy is not a party member if he is he should no longer be.
190 for 50 -
If only the seven deep-level lines were bored to main line (16ft) diameter like the 1904-vintage Northern City line from Moorgate to Drayton Park! That way, in the present, we could have air-conditioned S-stock operating out to places like Heathrow, Edgware, High Barnet, Epping, Walthamstow, Brixton, Morden, etc.JosiasJessop said:
The tunnels were enlarged by removing several of the cast iron segments from each tunnel ring, excavating a void behind to the required new diameter and reinstalling the segments with additional packing spacers. The northern section of the C&SLR between Euston and Moorgate was closed from 8 August 1922, but the rest of the line remained open with enlargement works taking place at night.[62] A collapse on 27 November 1923 caused when a train hit temporary shoring on the incomplete excavations near Elephant & Castle station filled the tunnel with soil.[62] The line was briefly operated in two parts, but was completely closed on 28 November 1923.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Didn't know that! I do know the original route was Stockwell to King William Street, and that a station called City Road (located between Old Street and Angel) was closed in 1922 after only 21 years.JosiasJessop said:
I'm rarely in London nowadays, and my knowledge of the operational tube network has decreased somewhat. I can still remember some fairy useless facts through, like they tried widening the Northern Line's city branch tunnels at night, whilst still keeping the tunnel's operational during the daytime! Needless to say, they gave up after a cave-in.Sunil_Prasannan said:
I saw that and thought - what a drongo!JosiasJessop said:
Sunil, I read the following story and wondered if, having nearly completed the UK's lines, you'd gone further abroad and decided to spice up your journeys:Sunil_Prasannan said:
Without Googling, natch, taking just one change of train:Verulamius said:This is the TfL report on their trial of WiFi data collection and analysis:
http://content.tfl.gov.uk/review-tfl-wifi-pilot.pdf
One particular area they analysed was the route passengers took between Waterloo and Kings Cross station (as there is not a direct tube line). The conclusion is a far wider selection of routes than that envisaged,
(Snip)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-australia-41378190/man-clings-to-train-s-windscreen-wiper-in-australia
I'm disappointed that you didn't spot my "deliberate" omission:
Northern line to Euston, then Northern line towards Bank
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_and_South_London_Railway#Reconstruction.2C_connections_and_extension
Oh well...0 -
OT
I am now officially bloody excited. The first critics reviews of Bladerunner 2049 are out and describe it as a masterpiece and one of the greatest Science Fiction films ever made. Given I already Given that title to the original I am fantastically happy about this and can't wait to see it.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/films/2017/09/27/blade-runner-2049-first-reactions-critics-call-film-sci-fi-masterpiece/0 -
If Boris moves now prepare for a second snap Brexit election in the Spring. It's the only logic to him moving now. The moment he enters No 10 he inherits the same dismal hand that May has now. How to let down Brexiters with no Commons majority as back up. If we wants to collapse the talks and go for nuclear Brexit that surely requires an election as well.If he's concluded he needs to move now prepare for a second snap election.
Thought I think Thornberry's conference jibe had a purpose. She followed Amber Rudd in making the same jibe hidden in plain sight.0 -
Quite so.williamglenn said:
It had a parliament, commission, council and court from the beginning. We joined a political union for political reasons. It was never confined to trade, and if it were, it wouldn't have succeeded.Charles said:
And the sad thing is if it had VP fined itself to trade it would have been great.SouthamObserver said:
Yep ...foxinsoxuk said:
An interesting thread on aerospace and trade here, and the origins of this dispute:SouthamObserver said:
It also shows how post-Brexit UK will be vulnerable to this kind of action from protectionist countries like the US. We do not have the leverage the EU has.foxinsoxuk said:
It shows that free trade areas such as NAFTA are no guarantee of free trade, and also need independent dispute oversight.SouthamObserver said:Ambitious to be threatening retaliatory action against a big US company with lots of friends in very high places at the same time as marching towards a cliff edge Brexit:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/bombardier-michael-fallon-boeing-donald-trump-commerce-tariff-defence-secretary-uk-government-a7969676.html?amp
https://twitter.com/ottocrat/status/912998997316513792
And this is where being an EU member is so important. The EU has the weight to defend itself. We can retaliate
The UK acting alone can’t take on the US. This is why it lost its post-war lead in civil aviation. https://academic.oup.com/ahr/article/113/1/151/41355/Jeffrey-A-Engel-Cold-War-at-30-000-Feet-The-Anglo … /
The level of delusion among the Brexit right is matched only by the delusion you see on the Corbyn left. And those are the two choices this country now has.
But ambitious pols had ambitions. And our paths diverged
The UK set up EFTA (economic) in 1960.
It left EFTA in 1972 and joined the EEC (political).0 -
Presumably they don't exist any longer. If 'the church' was that worried, they'd have destroyed them long ago, surely?Ishmael_Z said:
Pedantically, complete surviving works of Tacitus, or possibly complete surviving works of Tacitus except the manuscripts in the Vatican library which the church suppresses because of the unflattering light they cast on the origins of Christianity. I was on a paleography course taught by the Vatican librarian a bit ago. I asked him about that - he stonewalled by saying that the mss. did not exist, but he would obv have to give me that answer even if they did.Morris_Dancer said:Not quite current events, but I finished the Complete Works of Tacitus today, which is largely concerned with the political and military turmoil of the first century AD. Quite good, a broadsheet to Suetonius' tabloid, but he's not afraid of enormous sentences that can end up being a bit difficult to follow. Worth reading, but probably not as an early book for someone new to classical history.
0 -
I love scifi, but the original Bladerunner never did much for me. I'll have to watch it again and see if my forties self has a different view ...Richard_Tyndall said:OT
I am now officially bloody excited. The first critics reviews of Bladerunner 2049 are out and describe it as a masterpiece and one of the greatest Science Fiction films ever made. Given I already Given that title to the original I am fantastically happy about this and can't wait to see it.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/films/2017/09/27/blade-runner-2049-first-reactions-critics-call-film-sci-fi-masterpiece/0 -
What could he do to justify a leadership run? He's tied into the policy put forward last weekYellowSubmarine said:
If Boris moves now prepare for a second snap Brexit election in the Spring. It's the only logic to him moving now. The moment he enters No 10 he inherits the same dismal hand that May has now. How to let down Brexiters with no Commons majority as back up. If we wants to collapse the talks and go for nuclear Brexit that surely requires an election as well.If he's concluded he needs to move now prepare for a second snap election.
Thought I think Thornberry's conference jibe had a purpose. She followed Amber Rudd in making the same jibe hidden in plain sight.0 -
The book is better.Richard_Tyndall said:OT
I am now officially bloody excited. The first critics reviews of Bladerunner 2049 are out and describe it as a masterpiece and one of the greatest Science Fiction films ever made. Given I already Given that title to the original I am fantastically happy about this and can't wait to see it.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/films/2017/09/27/blade-runner-2049-first-reactions-critics-call-film-sci-fi-masterpiece/
Actually it isn't.0 -
Danny565 said:
Do you honestly believe most Leave voters were doing so on the basis of "free trade"?Philip_Thompson said:
Fantastic suggestion. Great to see a continuation of open and positive Brexit not small minded and closed one only. Who could object?williamglenn said:
Here we go...williamglenn said:There's a big shindig at the Foreign Office tonight at which Johnson and Fox are going to bless the launch of a new 'think tank' called the Institute for Free Trade whose President is Daniel Hannan, and claims such people as Tony Abbott and Michael Howard as its advisers.
There's a Brexit swamp in London that needs draining.
https://twitter.com/RobertsDan/status/913092277660192768
I did.0 -
Trudeau has said that yesSunil_Prasannan said:
Canada are thinking of cancelling a big order for F-16s, IIRCHYUFD said:
We are not doing it on our own, Trudeau's Canada is right besides us against BoeingSouthamObserver said:Ambitious to be threatening retaliatory action against a big US company with lots of friends in very high places at the same time as marching towards a cliff edge Brexit:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/bombardier-michael-fallon-boeing-donald-trump-commerce-tariff-defence-secretary-uk-government-a7969676.html?amp0 -
Sunil_Prasannan said:
You'd still have to find some way of dealing with the heat dumped out of the trains' aircon. Or be like the NYC Subway and accept oven-like stations as a price worth paying.JosiasJessop said:
If only the seven deep-level lines were bored to main line (16ft) diameter like the 1904-vintage Northern City line from Moorgate to Drayton Park! That way, in the present, we could have air-conditioned S-stock operating out to places like Heathrow, Edgware, High Barnet, Epping, Walthamstow, Brixton, Morden, etc.Sunil_Prasannan said:
The tunnels were enlarged by removing several of the cast iron segments from each tunnel ring, excavating a void behind to the required new diameter and reinstalling the segments with additional packing spacers. The northern section of the C&SLR between Euston and Moorgate was closed from 8 August 1922, but the rest of the line remained open with enlargement works taking place at night.[62] A collapse on 27 November 1923 caused when a train hit temporary shoring on the incomplete excavations near Elephant & Castle station filled the tunnel with soil.[62] The line was briefly operated in two parts, but was completely closed on 28 November 1923.JosiasJessop said:
Didn't know that! I do know the original route was Stockwell to King William Street, and that a station called City Road (located between Old Street and Angel) was closed in 1922 after only 21 years.Sunil_Prasannan said:
I'm rarely in London nowadays, and my knowledge of the operational tube network has decreased somewhat. I can still remember some fairy useless facts through, like they tried widening the Northern Line's city branch tunnels at night, whilst still keeping the tunnel's operational during the daytime! Needless to say, they gave up after a cave-in.JosiasJessop said:
I saw that and thought - what a drongo!Sunil_Prasannan said:
Sunil, I read the following story and wondered if, having nearly completed the UK's lines, you'd gone further abroad and decided to spice up your journeys:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-australia-41378190/man-clings-to-train-s-windscreen-wiper-in-australia
I'm disappointed that you didn't spot my "deliberate" omission:
Northern line to Euston, then Northern line towards Bank
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_and_South_London_Railway#Reconstruction.2C_connections_and_extension
Oh well...0 -
Didn't the EEC stand for European ECONOMIC Community ?rural_voter said:
Quite so.williamglenn said:
It had a parliament, commission, council and court from the beginning. We joined a political union for political reasons. It was never confined to trade, and if it were, it wouldn't have succeeded.Charles said:
And the sad thing is if it had VP fined itself to trade it would have been great.SouthamObserver said:
Yep ...foxinsoxuk said:
An interesting thread on aerospace and trade here, and the origins of this dispute:SouthamObserver said:
It also shows how post-Brexit UK will be vulnerable to this kind of action from protectionist countries like the US. We do not have the leverage the EU has.foxinsoxuk said:
It shows that free trade areas such as NAFTA are no guarantee of free trade, and also need independent dispute oversight.SouthamObserver said:Ambitious to be threatening retaliatory action against a big US company with lots of friends in very high places at the same time as marching towards a cliff edge Brexit:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/bombardier-michael-fallon-boeing-donald-trump-commerce-tariff-defence-secretary-uk-government-a7969676.html?amp
https://twitter.com/ottocrat/status/912998997316513792
And this is where being an EU member is so important. The EU has the weight to defend itself. We can retaliate
The UK acting alone can’t take on the US. This is why it lost its post-war lead in civil aviation. https://academic.oup.com/ahr/article/113/1/151/41355/Jeffrey-A-Engel-Cold-War-at-30-000-Feet-The-Anglo … /
The level of delusion among the Brexit right is matched only by the delusion you see on the Corbyn left. And those are the two choices this country now has.
But ambitious pols had ambitions. And our paths diverged
The UK set up EFTA (economic) in 1960.
It left EFTA in 1972 and joined the EEC (political).
If it had been political it would have been called the European POLITICAL Community.0 -
I very much doubt whether Johnson is planning a coup after the Tory conference -its more chattering class speculation -and even if he was, the Tory conference is probably a poor place and time to plan it, since to an extent the conference will want to put up a united front after the Corbyn hubristic jubilee.
The Tories will also want to ask whether a Bullington Club Etonian toff who is the main villain to Remainers is really the answer to the threat from Corbyn. The voters might be asking too what kind of choice it is next time when they have to decide whether they want a buffoon or a Trot as their prime minister.0 -
He won't, he will wait until 2019YellowSubmarine said:If Boris moves now prepare for a second snap Brexit election in the Spring. It's the only logic to him moving now. The moment he enters No 10 he inherits the same dismal hand that May has now. How to let down Brexiters with no Commons majority as back up. If we wants to collapse the talks and go for nuclear Brexit that surely requires an election as well.If he's concluded he needs to move now prepare for a second snap election.
Thought I think Thornberry's conference jibe had a purpose. She followed Amber Rudd in making the same jibe hidden in plain sight.0 -
@williamglenn " Ever closer union " is in the original Treaty of Rome. The choices of Iron, Steel and Nuclear power as things to put under supranational control was explicitly political in the light of WW2. The 1975 Referendum Ballot Paper asks about staying in " The European Community " with ' Common Market ' in brackets afterwards as an explainer.
The idea it wasn't an explicitly political project from the begining is one of the Europhobes biggest but sadly most effective lies.0 -
We joined the European Communities: the EEC, the ECSC and Euratom, which had already been merged under the same political structure before we joined.another_richard said:
Didn't the EEC stand for European ECONOMIC Community ?rural_voter said:
Quite so.williamglenn said:
It had a parliament, commission, council and court from the beginning. We joined a political union for political reasons. It was never confined to trade, and if it were, it wouldn't have succeeded.Charles said:
And the sad thing is if it had VP fined itself to trade it would have been great.SouthamObserver said:
Yep ...foxinsoxuk said:
An interesting thread on aerospace and trade here, and the origins of this dispute:SouthamObserver said:
It also shows how post-Brexit UK will be vulnerable to this kind of action from protectionist countries like the US. We do not have the leverage the EU has.foxinsoxuk said:
It shows that free trade areas such as NAFTA are no guarantee of free trade, and also need independent dispute oversight.SouthamObserver said:Ambitious to be threatening retaliatory action against a big US company with lots of friends in very high places at the same time as marching towards a cliff edge Brexit:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/bombardier-michael-fallon-boeing-donald-trump-commerce-tariff-defence-secretary-uk-government-a7969676.html?amp
https://twitter.com/ottocrat/status/912998997316513792
And this is where being an EU member is so important. The EU has the weight to defend itself. We can retaliate
The UK acting alone can’t take on the US. This is why it lost its post-war lead in civil aviation. https://academic.oup.com/ahr/article/113/1/151/41355/Jeffrey-A-Engel-Cold-War-at-30-000-Feet-The-Anglo … /
The level of delusion among the Brexit right is matched only by the delusion you see on the Corbyn left. And those are the two choices this country now has.
But ambitious pols had ambitions. And our paths diverged
The UK set up EFTA (economic) in 1960.
It left EFTA in 1972 and joined the EEC (political).
If it had been political it would have been called the European POLITICAL Community.0 -
It was 'just a bit of fun', apparently:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/27/labour-mp-mocked-prince-harrys-military-service-entitled-opinion/0 -
I dunno, what we do have gives the impression he regarded Christianity as an unpleasant, but not very important, cult. <hat type="tinfoil">Of course, the Vatican might have rewritten it that way to put everyone off the scent.</hat>Ishmael_Z said:
Pedantically, complete surviving works of Tacitus, or possibly complete surviving works of Tacitus except the manuscripts in the Vatican library which the church suppresses because of the unflattering light they cast on the origins of Christianity. I was on a paleography course taught by the Vatican librarian a bit ago. I asked him about that - he stonewalled by saying that the mss. did not exist, but he would obv have to give me that answer even if they did.Morris_Dancer said:Not quite current events, but I finished the Complete Works of Tacitus today, which is largely concerned with the political and military turmoil of the first century AD. Quite good, a broadsheet to Suetonius' tabloid, but he's not afraid of enormous sentences that can end up being a bit difficult to follow. Worth reading, but probably not as an early book for someone new to classical history.
0 -
Well ... this is obviously all just a conspiracy theory anyway, but for the scholarly, destroying unique ancient mss is the worst sin imaginable, and the people in charge of the library are scholars, so a compromise whereby the ms is locked away but not actually burnt would not be completely inconceivable.AnneJGP said:
Presumably they don't exist any longer. If 'the church' was that worried, they'd have destroyed them long ago, surely?Ishmael_Z said:
Pedantically, complete surviving works of Tacitus, or possibly complete surviving works of Tacitus except the manuscripts in the Vatican library which the church suppresses because of the unflattering light they cast on the origins of Christianity. I was on a paleography course taught by the Vatican librarian a bit ago. I asked him about that - he stonewalled by saying that the mss. did not exist, but he would obv have to give me that answer even if they did.Morris_Dancer said:Not quite current events, but I finished the Complete Works of Tacitus today, which is largely concerned with the political and military turmoil of the first century AD. Quite good, a broadsheet to Suetonius' tabloid, but he's not afraid of enormous sentences that can end up being a bit difficult to follow. Worth reading, but probably not as an early book for someone new to classical history.
0 -
Boris currently leads every poll of the public as to who they want to succeed May as Tory leader and also gets the best Tory voteshare of all potential successors against Corbyn Labour.stevef said:I very much doubt whether Johnson is planning a coup after the Tory conference -its more chattering class speculation -and even if he was, the Tory conference is probably a poor place and time to plan it, since to an extent the conference will want to put up a united front after the Corbyn hubristic jubilee.
The Tories will also want to ask whether a Bullington Club Etonian toff who is the main villain to Remainers is really the answer to the threat from Corbyn. The voters might be asking too what kind of choice it is next time when they have to decide whether they want a buffoon or a Trot as their prime minister.
Unless someone else emerges who at least matches his polling performance he remains the man to beat0 -
Which just shows what a bad fit the UK was for the organisation.williamglenn said:
We joined the European Communities: the EEC, the ECSC and Euratom, which had already been merged under the same political structure before we joined.another_richard said:
Didn't the EEC stand for European ECONOMIC Community ?rural_voter said:
Quite so.williamglenn said:
It had a parliament, commission, council and court from the beginning. We joined a political union for political reasons. It was never confined to trade, and if it were, it wouldn't have succeeded.Charles said:
And the sad thing is if it had VP fined itself to trade it would have been great.SouthamObserver said:
Yep ...foxinsoxuk said:
An interesting thread on aerospace and trade here, and the origins of this dispute:SouthamObserver said:
It also shows how post-Brexit UK will be vulnerable to this kind of action from protectionist countries like the US. We do not have the leverage the EU has.foxinsoxuk said:
It shows that free trade areas such as NAFTA are no guarantee of free trade, and also need independent dispute oversight.SouthamObserver said:Ambitious to be threatening retaliatory action against a big US company with lots of friends in very high places at the same time as marching towards a cliff edge Brexit:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/bombardier-michael-fallon-boeing-donald-trump-commerce-tariff-defence-secretary-uk-government-a7969676.html?amp
https://twitter.com/ottocrat/status/912998997316513792
And this is where being an EU member is so important. The EU has the weight to defend itself. We can retaliate
The UK acting alone can’t take on the US. This is why it lost its post-war lead in civil aviation. https://academic.oup.com/ahr/article/113/1/151/41355/Jeffrey-A-Engel-Cold-War-at-30-000-Feet-The-Anglo … /
The level of delusion among the Brexit right is matched only by the delusion you see on the Corbyn left. And those are the two choices this country now has.
But ambitious pols had ambitions. And our paths diverged
The UK set up EFTA (economic) in 1960.
It left EFTA in 1972 and joined the EEC (political).
If it had been political it would have been called the European POLITICAL Community.
The EU believed in 'ever closer union' while the UK wanted an economic association.
And that's why both the EU and the UK will be better off doing their own things.0 -
Maybe I should get around to watching the original. I hope thus new one is good, I hate people moaning about sequels or remakesRichard_Tyndall said:OT
I am now officially bloody excited. The first critics reviews of Bladerunner 2049 are out and describe it as a masterpiece and one of the greatest Science Fiction films ever made. Given I already Given that title to the original I am fantastically happy about this and can't wait to see it.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/films/2017/09/27/blade-runner-2049-first-reactions-critics-call-film-sci-fi-masterpiece/0 -
That's how we view ancient manuscripts now. How long have scholars bothered about that? They didn't see any problem about killing people with the wrong ideas, did they?Ishmael_Z said:
Well ... this is obviously all just a conspiracy theory anyway, but for the scholarly, destroying unique ancient mss is the worst sin imaginable, and the people in charge of the library are scholars, so a compromise whereby the ms is locked away but not actually burnt would not be completely inconceivable.AnneJGP said:
Presumably they don't exist any longer. If 'the church' was that worried, they'd have destroyed them long ago, surely?Ishmael_Z said:
Pedantically, complete surviving works of Tacitus, or possibly complete surviving works of Tacitus except the manuscripts in the Vatican library which the church suppresses because of the unflattering light they cast on the origins of Christianity. I was on a paleography course taught by the Vatican librarian a bit ago. I asked him about that - he stonewalled by saying that the mss. did not exist, but he would obv have to give me that answer even if they did.Morris_Dancer said:Not quite current events, but I finished the Complete Works of Tacitus today, which is largely concerned with the political and military turmoil of the first century AD. Quite good, a broadsheet to Suetonius' tabloid, but he's not afraid of enormous sentences that can end up being a bit difficult to follow. Worth reading, but probably not as an early book for someone new to classical history.
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Give it a few years and the usual suspects will be claiming on here that the Vatican surpressed the benefits of Brexit.0
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Fascinating situation in the cricket.
Weather forecast is rain, england behind DL, but can't afford to lose a wicket if the rain doesn't come.0 -
Yes its very close.FrancisUrquhart said:Fascinating situation in the cricket.
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What suggestions do our resident tories have to beat JC next time, if they believe rubbishin his economics is all that's needed they will be dissapointed0
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Ali seeing like a beach ball!0
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Common sensenichomar said:What suggestions do our resident tories have to beat JC next time, if they believe rubbishin his economics is all that's needed they will be dissapointed
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Yet it was Leave which said that the alternative was EverCloserUnion.YellowSubmarine said:@williamglenn " Ever closer union " is in the original Treaty of Rome. The choices of Iron, Steel and Nuclear power as things to put under supranational control was explicitly political in the light of WW2. The 1975 Referendum Ballot Paper asks about staying in " The European Community " with ' Common Market ' in brackets afterwards as an explainer.
The idea it wasn't an explicitly political project from the begining is one of the Europhobes biggest but sadly most effective lies.
While Remain supporters have for decades pretended otherwise.
You should be angry with all those Remain politicians who failed to make a positive case for EverCloserUnion.0 -
"He tried to pass the helicopter exam about four times and he couldn't get through it at all so he always goes for the co-pilot. So he just sits there going 'vroom vroom'."RobD said:It was 'just a bit of fun', apparently:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/27/labour-mp-mocked-prince-harrys-military-service-entitled-opinion/
That is quite funny.
I do feel a bit sorry for the guy, though. His is a pointless life that should never have happened.0 -
Unfortunately not a lot of that about!Big_G_NorthWales said:
Common sensenichomar said:What suggestions do our resident tories have to beat JC next time, if they believe rubbishin his economics is all that's needed they will be dissapointed
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Not enough we've seen that doesn't workBig_G_NorthWales said:
Common sensenichomar said:What suggestions do our resident tories have to beat JC next time, if they believe rubbishin his economics is all that's needed they will be dissapointed
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The campaign in 1975 was much more inspiring.another_richard said:
Yet it was Leave which said that the alternative was EverCloserUnion.YellowSubmarine said:@williamglenn " Ever closer union " is in the original Treaty of Rome. The choices of Iron, Steel and Nuclear power as things to put under supranational control was explicitly political in the light of WW2. The 1975 Referendum Ballot Paper asks about staying in " The European Community " with ' Common Market ' in brackets afterwards as an explainer.
The idea it wasn't an explicitly political project from the begining is one of the Europhobes biggest but sadly most effective lies.
While Remain supporters have for decades pretended otherwise.
You should be angry with all those Remain politicians who failed to make a positive case for EverCloserUnion.
https://vimeo.com/2357893900 -
Trying to be objective, I think it's in the Tories' best interests (and indeed the country's) to line up soberly behind May until the Brexit talks conclude. If they're thought to have gone well, she'll be popular and they can keep her on. If they aren't, that's the time to dump her.HYUFD said:
He won't, he will wait until 2019YellowSubmarine said:If Boris moves now prepare for a second snap Brexit election in the Spring. It's the only logic to him moving now. The moment he enters No 10 he inherits the same dismal hand that May has now. How to let down Brexiters with no Commons majority as back up. If we wants to collapse the talks and go for nuclear Brexit that surely requires an election as well.If he's concluded he needs to move now prepare for a second snap election.
Thought I think Thornberry's conference jibe had a purpose. She followed Amber Rudd in making the same jibe hidden in plain sight.
However, the *worst* option for the Tories is two years of feverish speculation - will Boris mount a coup? Will Davis resign? Will Fox denounce Gove? etc etc That will poison the well for either May or any plausible successor. So the least bad realistic option is probably to do it now and clear the air.0 -
The 3 keys things about early Christian Mss are #1 The huge number of extant ones #2 How quickly and how far geographically they spread after the life of Christ #3 How relatively close chronologically they are to the alleged events. The volume and strength of the extant mas corpus compared to other time frames in the Ancient world's is astonishing.
Whatever else the early church was it prompted a rapid and continent wide explosion of mass unusually close in time to alleged events and then was unusually adept at preserving them.0 -
It can't possibly be this good:Richard_Tyndall said:OT
I am now officially bloody excited. The first critics reviews of Bladerunner 2049 are out and describe it as a masterpiece and one of the greatest Science Fiction films ever made. Given I already Given that title to the original I am fantastically happy about this and can't wait to see it.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/films/2017/09/27/blade-runner-2049-first-reactions-critics-call-film-sci-fi-masterpiece/
"Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die."0 -
Not a tory of any type but:nichomar said:What suggestions do our resident tories have to beat JC next time, if they believe rubbishin his economics is all that's needed they will be dissapointed
Increase home ownership.
Maximum wage in the public sector including the BBC and universities.0 -
Rain cascading down - England +4 on DL0
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Some movement on student fees and take National Living Wage down to 21another_richard said:
Not a tory of any type but:nichomar said:What suggestions do our resident tories have to beat JC next time, if they believe rubbishin his economics is all that's needed they will be dissapointed
Increase home ownership.
Maximum wage in the public sector including the BBC and universities.0 -
6 ahead on DL as rain stops playBig_G_NorthWales said:Rain cascading down - England +4 on DL
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Shame for this not to play out properly.Big_G_NorthWales said:Rain cascading down - England +4 on DL
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Heath was one of the few that was honest - contrast with the current lot.williamglenn said:
The campaign in 1975 was much more inspiring.another_richard said:
Yet it was Leave which said that the alternative was EverCloserUnion.YellowSubmarine said:@williamglenn " Ever closer union " is in the original Treaty of Rome. The choices of Iron, Steel and Nuclear power as things to put under supranational control was explicitly political in the light of WW2. The 1975 Referendum Ballot Paper asks about staying in " The European Community " with ' Common Market ' in brackets afterwards as an explainer.
The idea it wasn't an explicitly political project from the begining is one of the Europhobes biggest but sadly most effective lies.
While Remain supporters have for decades pretended otherwise.
You should be angry with all those Remain politicians who failed to make a positive case for EverCloserUnion.
https://vimeo.com/235789390
But he was unrealistic to think that the UK would become the dominant voice in the EEC.0 -
Can I just say IOS 11....Works about as well as the Venezuelan economy!0
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"Labour Ground Game"FrancisUrquhart said:Can I just say IOS 11....Works about as well as the Venezuelan economy!
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@another_richard I agree with that actually. The bitter lesson of the referendum is the Euronutters can't be satisfied and the European project can only be defended in it's own terms. Cameron got an opt out on Ever closer union and all the nutters who'd spent 40 years banging in about it still weren't satisfied.
Of course the full phrase is " ever closer union of peoples " not states. It's a rather smug evocation of " more perfect union " in the US constitution. It's a flowery and arguably pretentious piece of poetry but thats all.0 -
All of them 1950s throwbacks! So who's suffering from 1950s nostalgia now?williamglenn said:
We joined the European Communities: the EEC, the ECSC and Euratom, which had already been merged under the same political structure before we joined.another_richard said:
Didn't the EEC stand for European ECONOMIC Community ?rural_voter said:
Quite so.williamglenn said:
It had a parliament, commission, council and court from the beginning. We joined a political union for political reasons. It was never confined to trade, and if it were, it wouldn't have succeeded.Charles said:
And the sad thing is if it had VP fined itself to trade it would have been great.SouthamObserver said:
Yep ...foxinsoxuk said:
An interesting thread on aerospace and trade here, and the origins of this dispute:SouthamObserver said:
It also shows how post-Brexit UK will be vulnerable to this kind of action from protectionist countries like the US. We do not have the leverage the EU has.foxinsoxuk said:
It shows that free trade areas such as NAFTA are no guarantee of free trade, and also need independent dispute oversight.SouthamObserver said:Ambitious to be threatening retaliatory action against a big US company with lots of friends in very high places at the same time as marching towards a cliff edge Brexit:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/bombardier-michael-fallon-boeing-donald-trump-commerce-tariff-defence-secretary-uk-government-a7969676.html?amp
https://twitter.com/ottocrat/status/912998997316513792
And this is where being an EU member is so important. The EU has the weight to defend itself. We can retaliate
The UK acting alone can’t take on the US. This is why it lost its post-war lead in civil aviation. https://academic.oup.com/ahr/article/113/1/151/41355/Jeffrey-A-Engel-Cold-War-at-30-000-Feet-The-Anglo … /
The level of delusion among the Brexit right is matched only by the delusion you see on the Corbyn left. And those are the two choices this country now has.
But ambitious pols had ambitions. And our paths diverged
The UK set up EFTA (economic) in 1960.
It left EFTA in 1972 and joined the EEC (political).
If it had been political it would have been called the European POLITICAL Community. 0 -
Regarding the very real anti-semitism problem in the Labour Party- you have to understand just how idiotic some of our members are.
They are pro Palestine and anti-Israel. Not anti-Netanyahu and his policies, but against it's existence as it's obviously imperialist colonialism. And therefore criticism of the entire state and it's occupants is ok, and the Zionist project that created it. And the people who like Zionism are connected in a great global conspiracy and also control money and the media.
When you point out that global Jewish conspiracy controlling all the money is what the Nazis used to write, they see it as proof that you are under the spell of this conspiracy and are therefore probably a Tory. And besudes which in calling out anti-Semitism you're siding with the Blairite who get paid by Lord Sainsbury who is big capital and that means part of the global conspiracy and that just proves you are a Tory and need to GET BEHIND OUR TWICE ELECTED LEADER.
Seriously. It's fucking crazy not in a funny way0 -
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Harry is a good looking multi millionaire with a Hollywood actress girlfriend, there are plenty more people more deserving of pity than him!Pong said:
"He tried to pass the helicopter exam about four times and he couldn't get through it at all so he always goes for the co-pilot. So he just sits there going 'vroom vroom'."RobD said:It was 'just a bit of fun', apparently:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/27/labour-mp-mocked-prince-harrys-military-service-entitled-opinion/
That is quite funny.
I do feel a bit sorry for the guy, though. His is a pointless life that should never have happened.0 -
Well, I was thinking of at least some kind of full-size trains. They still use 313s at Moorgate. And the very similar 507/508s in Liverpool (which has four deep-level tube stations).rpjs said:
You'd still have to find some way of dealing with the heat dumped out of the trains' aircon. Or be like the NYC Subway and accept oven-like stations as a price worth paying.Sunil_Prasannan said:
If only the seven deep-level lines were bored to main line (16ft) diameter like the 1904-vintage Northern City line from Moorgate to Drayton Park! That way, in the present, we could have air-conditioned S-stock operating out to places like Heathrow, Edgware, High Barnet, Epping, Walthamstow, Brixton, Morden, etc.
Oh well...0 -
Damn missed the edit cutoff.Pong said:
"He tried to pass the helicopter exam about four times and he couldn't get through it at all so he always goes for the co-pilot. So he just sits there going 'vroom vroom'."RobD said:It was 'just a bit of fun', apparently:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/27/labour-mp-mocked-prince-harrys-military-service-entitled-opinion/
That is quite funny.
I do feel a bit sorry for the guy, though. His is a pointless life that should never have happened.
Anyway, I retract that last comment. It wasn't nice.0 -
No, that is not right at all. You have had scholars as long as you have had writing, and to be a scholar is and always has been to be a manuscript geek. To destroy an unpublished manuscript is to destroy knowledge in the abstract as well as the physical thing. And the putative risk of not destroying it is virtually nil. Presumably you'd keep the thing in a safe with one key held by the Pope, because if it isn't locked away it could be surreptitiously copied, and any scenario where that level of security fails is one where the church has been obliterated anyway.AnneJGP said:
That's how we view ancient manuscripts now. How long have scholars bothered about that? They didn't see any problem about killing people with the wrong ideas, did they?Ishmael_Z said:
Well ... this is obviously all just a conspiracy theory anyway, but for the scholarly, destroying unique ancient mss is the worst sin imaginable, and the people in charge of the library are scholars, so a compromise whereby the ms is locked away but not actually burnt would not be completely inconceivable.AnneJGP said:
Presumably they don't exist any longer. If 'the church' was that worried, they'd have destroyed them long ago, surely?Ishmael_Z said:
Pedantically, complete surviving works of Tacitus, or possibly complete surviving works of Tacitus except the manuscripts in the Vatican library which the church suppresses because of the unflattering light they cast on the origins of Christianity. I was on a paleography course taught by the Vatican librarian a bit ago. I asked him about that - he stonewalled by saying that the mss. did not exist, but he would obv have to give me that answer even if they did.Morris_Dancer said:Not quite current events, but I finished the Complete Works of Tacitus today, which is largely concerned with the political and military turmoil of the first century AD. Quite good, a broadsheet to Suetonius' tabloid, but he's not afraid of enormous sentences that can end up being a bit difficult to follow. Worth reading, but probably not as an early book for someone new to classical history.
0 -
He has a horrible life.HYUFD said:
Harry is a good looking multi millionaire with a Hollywood actress girlfriend, there are plenty more people more deserving of pity than him!Pong said:
"He tried to pass the helicopter exam about four times and he couldn't get through it at all so he always goes for the co-pilot. So he just sits there going 'vroom vroom'."RobD said:It was 'just a bit of fun', apparently:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/27/labour-mp-mocked-prince-harrys-military-service-entitled-opinion/
That is quite funny.
I do feel a bit sorry for the guy, though. His is a pointless life that should never have happened.0 -
Your first paragraph is correct, your last sentence less so.NickPalmer said:
Trying to be objective, I think it's in the Tories' best interests (and indeed the country's) to line up soberly behind May until the Brexit talks conclude. If they're thought to have gone well, she'll be popular and they can keep her on. If they aren't, that's the time to dump her.HYUFD said:
He won't, he will wait until 2019YellowSubmarine said:If Boris moves now prepare for a second snap Brexit election in the Spring. It's the only logic to him moving now. The moment he enters No 10 he inherits the same dismal hand that May has now. How to let down Brexiters with no Commons majority as back up. If we wants to collapse the talks and go for nuclear Brexit that surely requires an election as well.If he's concluded he needs to move now prepare for a second snap election.
Thought I think Thornberry's conference jibe had a purpose. She followed Amber Rudd in making the same jibe hidden in plain sight.
However, the *worst* option for the Tories is two years of feverish speculation - will Boris mount a coup? Will Davis resign? Will Fox denounce Gove? etc etc That will poison the well for either May or any plausible successor. So the least bad realistic option is probably to do it now and clear the air.
Given the only potential successor more popular and electable than May is Boris and he would torpedo the Brexit talks immediately it is best to get the talks out the way before considering a leadership change0 -
This is very true. Since the referendum however, people who are prepared to defend the EU in its own terms are stepping forwards, and its clear that Eurosceptics who are used to being met with dissembling and evasion are now losing the arguments. In addition their lack of answers to the very pressing practical problems created by Brexit is creating the perfect storm.YellowSubmarine said:@another_richard I agree with that actually. The bitter lesson of the referendum is the Euronutters can't be satisfied and the European project can only be defended in it's own terms.
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The Universities are not in the public sector.another_richard said:
Not a tory of any type but:nichomar said:What suggestions do our resident tories have to beat JC next time, if they believe rubbishin his economics is all that's needed they will be dissapointed
Increase home ownership.
Maximum wage in the public sector including the BBC and universities.
They are independent entities.
0
