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*reins

Dadge said:

*reins

Ta, fixed now.

Can I blame autocorrect?

https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/907667683344297985

MarkHopkins said:

williamglenn said:

twitter.com/faisalislam/status/907667683344297985

Faisal Islam? Mr 'impartial' himself?

I'll never forget his contempt for Gove in the pre-referendum interviews.

williamglenn said:

RobD said:

MarkHopkins said:

williamglenn said:

twitter.com/faisalislam/status/907667683344297985

Faisal Islam? Mr 'impartial' himself?

I'll never forget his contempt for Gove in the pre-referendum interviews.

Gove who said Brexit would start the 'democratic liberation of a whole continent'? Contempt is the correct response.

Not form a supposedly neutral political interviewer.

RobD said:

I'll never forget his contempt for Gove in the pre-referendum interviews.

Gove who said "We have had enough of experts"

Every sentient being should hold him in contempt

Scott_P said:

RobD said:

I'll never forget his contempt for Gove in the pre-referendum interviews.

Gove who said "We have had enough of experts"

Every sentient being should hold him in contempt

Why?

Scott_P said:

RobD said:

I'll never forget his contempt for Gove in the pre-referendum interviews.

Gove who said "We have had enough of experts"

Every sentient being should hold him in contempt

Gove who was saying "we have had enough of experts from organisations with acronyms saying that they know what is best and getting it consistently wrong" - the bit you missed at the end is kind of important but then if you were trying to be honest you'd be a different person.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/01/michael-gove-was-accidentally-right-about-experts/

Ishmael_Z said:

Scott_P said:

RobD said:

I'll never forget his contempt for Gove in the pre-referendum interviews.

Gove who said "We have had enough of experts"

Every sentient being should hold him in contempt

Have you been lobotomised?

For starters he didn't say that, he said that the people had had enough of experts from organisations with acronyms in their names saying they know what is best for everyone and who have been consistently wrong. And he seems to have been right about that, given the result, doesn't he? In fact we should recognise and revere him as an expert, surely?

Here we are, 1:05 in:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGgiGtJk7MA

But watch the whole thing, because you can tell from everything Islam says and everything he does, why you lost. Or rather you personally can't because the mindset which made you lose also makes you think that the sole reason you lost was yebbutbus.

And for the millionth bloody time, if you cannot distinguish between an expert and mystic Meg, how do you explain the fact that all the professors of economics in the world do not have their own LearJets?

Most of the world's acronymed experts vs a bus. And the bus won. Says a lot for experts and their adherents, doesn't it...

Mortimer said:

Ishmael_Z said:

Scott_P said:

RobD said:

I'll never forget his contempt for Gove in the pre-referendum interviews.

Gove who said "We have had enough of experts"

Every sentient being should hold him in contempt

Have you been lobotomised?

For starters he didn't say that, he said that the people had had enough of experts from organisations with acronyms in their names saying they know what is best for everyone and who have been consistently wrong. And he seems to have been right about that, given the result, doesn't he? In fact we should recognise and revere him as an expert, surely?

Here we are, 1:05 in:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGgiGtJk7MA

But watch the whole thing, because you can tell from everything Islam says and everything he does, why you lost. Or rather you personally can't because the mindset which made you lose also makes you think that the sole reason you lost was yebbutbus.

And for the millionth bloody time, if you cannot distinguish between an expert and mystic Meg, how do you explain the fact that all the professors of economics in the world do not have their own LearJets?

Most of the world's acronymed experts vs a bus. And the bus won. Says a lot for experts and their adherents, doesn't it...

There should be a song about that...

"They fought the bus, and the bus won". [repeat]

Scott_P said:

Mortimer said:

Most of the world's acronymed experts vs a bus. And the bus won. Says a lot for experts and their adherents, doesn't it...

They were right and the bus was wrong

Says a lot for the voters, doesn't it...

They were right? When was the immediate recession they said there'd be?

Scott_P said:

Mortimer said:

Most of the world's acronymed experts vs a bus. And the bus won. Says a lot for experts and their adherents, doesn't it...

They were right and the bus was wrong

Says a lot for the voters, doesn't it...

It says that we dont trust people just 'because' when it goes against gut instinct.

The case for Euroliberalism may be obvious to those who have done well out of it; but it is far from obvious to those who have lost out. The fact that those who have won seemed not only to care little for those who have lost, but failed even to make the case successfully vs an inanimate object sums up why the usual winners lost that referendum.

Ishmael_Z said:

That post is why you lost, compressed into 16 words. I don't think we are going to get through to you.

I know exactly why remain lost.

Doesn't change the fact that Brexit is the greatest policy fuckup of my lifetime, nor dim my contempt for those who peddled it

Scott_P said:

Ishmael_Z said:

That post is why you lost, compressed into 16 words. I don't think we are going to get through to you.

I know exactly why remain lost.

Doesn't change the fact that Brexit is the greatest policy fuckup of my lifetime, nor dim my contempt for those who peddled it

Remain lost, because people had experienced the EU, and didn't like it.

You will think that they ought to have liked it, but there it is.

tlg86 said:

Scott_P said:

Ishmael_Z said:

That post is why you lost, compressed into 16 words. I don't think we are going to get through to you.

I know exactly why remain lost.

Doesn't change the fact that Brexit is the greatest policy fuckup of my lifetime, nor dim my contempt for those who peddled it

Bailing out the banks is the biggest mistake of my lifetime, though maybe you weren't born then...

Was it? I honestly think not bailing out the banks would have been the worst economic decision since the 30s....

Scott_P said:

Mortimer said:

The case for Euroliberalism may be obvious to those who have done well out of it; but it is far from obvious to those who have lost out. The fact that those who have won seemed not only to care little for those who have lost, but failed even to make the case successfully vs an inanimate object sums up why the usual winners lost that referendum.

The tragedy being, of course, that the worst losers from the outcome of Brexit will be those very people who felt like losers before.

Brexit will not deliver £350m for the NHS

Brexit will not reduce hospital waiting times

Brexit will not create lots of new high skilled jobs in post industrial towns

Brexit will not lower their cost of living

All of the lies that bought their votes are turning to dust.

You might be right that they will blame the experts for the resulting mess, but they should reserve their contempt for Gove and his accomplices

I disagree, but thanks for rising above the yah boo sucks in this post.

https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/907705332297879553

@JvdRieth: IMPORTANT (and insane if true) https://twitter.com/LeaveHQ/status/907692257200963584

https://mobile.twitter.com/OliverNorgrove/status/907687683128004608

Interesting thread.

Don't suppose the true beleeeeeeeavers on here will turn a hair as they lurch towards the rapture.

Monksfield said:

https://mobile.twitter.com/OliverNorgrove/status/907687683128004608

Interesting thread.

Don't suppose the true beleeeeeeeavers on here will turn a hair as they lurch towards the rapture.

Surely, it would be of greater concern if the Treasury did not make preparations for No Deal.

Monksfield said:

Sean_F said:

williamglenn said:

Sean_F said:

Remain lost, because people had experienced the EU, and didn't like it.

If that's the case, why did the Leave campaign rely on egregious lying?

The Leave campaign weren't pied pipers who somehow bewitched 17m people into voting their way.

For years, there was public unhappiness at the EU. This crystallised when we were offered a referendum on the EU constitution at the 2005 election, and then denied it, when it was renamed the Lisbon Treaty. Your own side's bad faith undermined your cause.

There would never have been a referendum on EU membership if the public had been happy to be members of it.

There was public unhappiness largely because a few media and establishment plutocrats conducted a 30 year grooming exercise aimed at ridiculing and painting in a negative light virtually everything the EU did.

Why? Because they felt it threatened their power.

The EU is no threat to the power of any plutocrat.

Scott_P said:

@JvdRieth: IMPORTANT (and insane if true) https://twitter.com/LeaveHQ/status/907692257200963584

Why insane? It's a formality, she's already announce we are exiting.

https://www.independent.co.uk/editions/uk.co.independent.issue.120917/data/7940836/index.html

Britain’s new chief trade deal negotiator has backed plans for the UK to scrap its local regulations in exchange for getting a free deal from other countries.

Crawford Falconer was appointed chief trade negotiation adviser by Liam Fox’s Department for International Trade last month after a lengthy and expensive selection process. Mr Falconer was a member of the The Legatum Institute think tank’s “special trade commission”, which drew up a report calling for Britain’s regulations to be “on the table” in negotiations with other countries.

The report, which bears Mr Falconer’s name, said the UK would have to leave the European Economic Area so that its regulations would be able to differ from those of the EU if required by the UK’s future trade partners. This approach would allow it to negotiate free trade deals with other countries that include services, the report said.

Charles said:

foxinsoxuk said:

MarkHopkins said:

williamglenn said:

https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/907667683344297985

Faisal Islam? Mr 'impartial' himself?

This fellow

https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/907669524421513216

https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/907680313727504384

How fortunate they'll have clarity in 18m or so then

Pause

You know that can be taken two ways, right?

Monksfield said:

Sean_F said:

Monksfield said:

https://mobile.twitter.com/OliverNorgrove/status/907687683128004608

Interesting thread.

Don't suppose the true beleeeeeeeavers on here will turn a hair as they lurch towards the rapture.

Surely, it would be of greater concern if the Treasury did not make preparations for No Deal.

The trouble is, a significant part of the Tory party seem to be indicating no deal is their preferred outcome. Including I suspect the odious May, who now seems to envisage herself a latter day Boadicea. With her reputation already in ruins, I think she sees this as the one shot at redemption.

She's the gambling addict who's down to her last 2 quid on the second day of Cheltenham and has decided to throw it on a 50-1 shot.

I don't think that no deal is the preferred outcome. But, it is a possible outcome.

viewcode said:

Sean_F said:

Monksfield said:

https://mobile.twitter.com/OliverNorgrove/status/907687683128004608

Interesting thread.

Don't suppose the true beleeeeeeeavers on here will turn a hair as they lurch towards the rapture.

Surely, it would be of greater concern if the Treasury did not make preparations for No Deal.

It's one thing to make preparations for lightning

It's another thing to stand in a tin bath full of water on top of a mountain in a thunderstorm whilst waving a long steel rod and tinfoil hat whilst screaming "THOR IS A TWAT!"

Do you think that is what the Treasury is doing?

Sean_F said:

Monksfield said:

Sean_F said:

Monksfield said:

https://mobile.twitter.com/OliverNorgrove/status/907687683128004608

Interesting thread.

Don't suppose the true beleeeeeeeavers on here will turn a hair as they lurch towards the rapture.

Surely, it would be of greater concern if the Treasury did not make preparations for No Deal.

The trouble is, a significant part of the Tory party seem to be indicating no deal is their preferred outcome. Including I suspect the odious May, who now seems to envisage herself a latter day Boadicea. With her reputation already in ruins, I think she sees this as the one shot at redemption.

She's the gambling addict who's down to her last 2 quid on the second day of Cheltenham and has decided to throw it on a 50-1 shot.

I don't think that no deal is the preferred outcome. But, it is a possible outcome.

The other problem is increasingly, even amongst the cognoscenti on PB, that there is a conflation of so-called 'Hard Brexit', i.e. not in the CU or SM, with a No Deal Brexit. I don't think anyone really supports a no deal at any costs view. Partisan opponents are trying to paint the Tories as such, mind.

TwistedFireStopper said:

Scott_P said:

Ishmael_Z said:

That post is why you lost, compressed into 16 words. I don't think we are going to get through to you.

I know exactly why remain lost.

Doesn't change the fact that Brexit is the greatest policy fuckup of my lifetime, nor dim my contempt for those who peddled it

It might well be a fuckup, but surely a fair share of the blame lies with your mates Cameron and Osborne who never put forward a positive case to stay in the EU? Do you have the same contempt for the fucking eejits who ran such a wanky Remain campaign that Nigel Farage came out of it on top?

Indeed. I pointed out a few weeks ago that the 70's referendum was the result of many years patient (ahem) opinion management stretching over more than one government, whereas the 2016 referendum was cobbled together by Cameron at the last minute and included such luminaries as the Marks and Spencer guy and June Sarpong.

However, my contempt for such irresponsible amateurism does not make me more relaxed about the present government's fixation on painstakingly finding the stupidest course of action and then heading directly for it at full pelt.

williamglenn said:

https://www.independent.co.uk/editions/uk.co.independent.issue.120917/data/7940836/index.html

Britain’s new chief trade deal negotiator has backed plans for the UK to scrap its local regulations in exchange for getting a free deal from other countries.

Crawford Falconer was appointed chief trade negotiation adviser by Liam Fox’s Department for International Trade last month after a lengthy and expensive selection process. Mr Falconer was a member of the The Legatum Institute think tank’s “special trade commission”, which drew up a report calling for Britain’s regulations to be “on the table” in negotiations with other countries.

The report, which bears Mr Falconer’s name, said the UK would have to leave the European Economic Area so that its regulations would be able to differ from those of the EU if required by the UK’s future trade partners. This approach would allow it to negotiate free trade deals with other countries that include services, the report said.

Awesome!

Ishmael_Z said:

Monksfield said:

Sean_F said:

williamglenn said:

Sean_F said:

Remain lost, because people had experienced the EU, and didn't like it.

If that's the case, why did the Leave campaign rely on egregious lying?

The Leave campaign weren't pied pipers who somehow bewitched 17m people into voting their way.

For years, there was public unhappiness at the EU. This crystallised when we were offered a referendum on the EU constitution at the 2005 election, and then denied it, when it was renamed the Lisbon Treaty. Your own side's bad faith undermined your cause.

There would never have been a referendum on EU membership if the public had been happy to be members of it.

There was public unhappiness largely because a few media and establishment plutocrats conducted a 30 year grooming exercise aimed at ridiculing and painting in a negative light virtually everything the EU did.

Why? Because they felt it threatened their power.

Every word of that post is a lie, including "a" and "and". The sort of conspiracy theory that gives conspiracy theories a bad name, kind of the Protocols of the Elders of Brexit.

You must have been living in a different dimension Ishmael. One where the only newspaper was the Guardian.

Mortimer said:

Sean_F said:

Monksfield said:

Sean_F said:

Monksfield said:

https://mobile.twitter.com/OliverNorgrove/status/907687683128004608

Interesting thread.

Don't suppose the true beleeeeeeeavers on here will turn a hair as they lurch towards the rapture.

Surely, it would be of greater concern if the Treasury did not make preparations for No Deal.

The trouble is, a significant part of the Tory party seem to be indicating no deal is their preferred outcome. Including I suspect the odious May, who now seems to envisage herself a latter day Boadicea. With her reputation already in ruins, I think she sees this as the one shot at redemption.

She's the gambling addict who's down to her last 2 quid on the second day of Cheltenham and has decided to throw it on a 50-1 shot.

I don't think that no deal is the preferred outcome. But, it is a possible outcome.

The other problem is increasingly, even amongst the cognoscenti on PB, that there is a conflation of so-called 'Hard Brexit', i.e. not in the CU or SM, with a No Deal Brexit. I don't think anyone really supports a no deal at any costs view. Partisan opponents are trying to paint the Tories as such, mind.

I think hard WTO Brexit is the most likely outcome, albeit not yet nailed on.

Neither side is seriously negotiating, the EU because its hands are tied by plans agreed in advance and not easily ammended, and the UK because it is led by clowns thinking of their own leadership bids rather than the task in hand.

It will be at some point that UKhas fto choose between the EU27 deal, or WTO Brexit. The first is electoral suicide, whilst the WTO is the same.

Sean_F said:

viewcode said:

Sean_F said:

Monksfield said:

https://mobile.twitter.com/OliverNorgrove/status/907687683128004608

Interesting thread.

Don't suppose the true beleeeeeeeavers on here will turn a hair as they lurch towards the rapture.

Surely, it would be of greater concern if the Treasury did not make preparations for No Deal.

It's one thing to make preparations for lightning

It's another thing to stand in a tin bath full of water on top of a mountain in a thunderstorm whilst waving a long steel rod and tinfoil hat whilst screaming "THOR IS A TWAT!"

Do you think that is what the Treasury is doing?

That's an...oddly sensible question. What are you doing on PB?

The only thing I know about the Government's activities are a) the position papers, b) what various ministers say, and c) other stuff like leaked tweets.

From this I think that:
* The Government has unrealistic ambitions at painfree outcomes. It outlines scenarios without realistic appraisal of what will be needed to achieve them, and uses emotional language to describe them (eg "deep and special"). An example is the NI border, which imagined an open but electronically monitored border (using drones?)
* There are occasional outbursts from the other direction, which emotionally berate the EU ("stubborn") or, in that case of the rapidly-denied Twitter thing, actually troll it ("Please tell us the legal basis for this number")

In short, I think the Government is vacillating between two emotional states, is cting from the gut instead of thinking, and isn't in a fit state to do anything right now.

As a supplemental, I just did a quick speed-read of that Legatum Institute thingy and came away thinking that it was based more on an idealised future than a messy reality...and I don't think it's going to end happily, to be honest.

Happy to be contradicted, and I do hope I am wrong and this will end with shake-hands and an UK-EU Association Agreement, but I'm not sanguine.

There y'go. Serious question, serious answer. We good?

@paulwaugh: It's happened folks. Govt wins vote to secure Tory majority in cttees, by 320 to 301. V signif

Met up with a German friend of mine yesterday, chatted about politics, the EU etc and FWIW these are his thoughts:

People in Germany take Freedom of Movement for granted. The idea of passport control as you move across a European border is alien. He lives close to both France and Switzerland.

He reckons Angela Merkel let in large numbers of Syrian refugees because she wasn't willing to apply border controls against Austria. Once other countries knew Germany would take the refugees, it was easier to let them pass. He is relatively sanguine that the Syrians will integrate.

He thinks the EU won't reform, although it should, because there's no consensus on what that reform should be.

He thinks the SPD will join a CDU coalition if they reckon there's no viable alternative government. It's expected of them and they can rationalise it, even though it's not doing them any good from a partisan point of view.

Scott_P said:

@paulwaugh: It's happened folks. Govt wins vote to secure Tory majority in cttees, by 320 to 301. V signif

???

GIN1138 said:

Scott_P said:

@paulwaugh: It's happened folks. Govt wins vote to secure Tory majority in cttees, by 320 to 301. V signif

???

Procedural - but the usual Parly arithmetic doesn't really work for large minority govts, and doesn't work at all for minority govts with C&S deals. The vote tonight was about reflecting the reality of the parliamentary landscape on standing cttes.

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Scott_P said:

@paulwaugh: It's happened folks. Govt wins vote to secure Tory majority in cttees, by 320 to 301. V signif

It does seem as if the Government whips are highly organised and doing a very good job for Theresa May. For all the doubts the party does seem to be disciplined and getting out their vote

Williamson is doing a sterling job.

Worth a few quid as an outside chance as next leader, perhaps.

Scott_P said:

@paulwaugh: It's happened folks. Govt wins vote to secure Tory majority in cttees, by 320 to 301. V signif

Thank God for that. Some good news for once, and one risk factor which might have led to a catastrophic cash-out neutralised. Plenty more risk still exists, of course.

GIN1138 said:

???

It's May's attempt to secure the Parliamentary majority denied her by the bloody voters.

She now has a guaranteed majority on every committee scrutinising Brexit

Awesome!

Mortimer said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Scott_P said:

@paulwaugh: It's happened folks. Govt wins vote to secure Tory majority in cttees, by 320 to 301. V signif

It does seem as if the Government whips are highly organised and doing a very good job for Theresa May. For all the doubts the party does seem to be disciplined and getting out their vote

Williamson is doing a sterling job.

Worth a few quid as an outside chance as next leader, perhaps.

Nope. Not a chance.

(Which isn't to say that he's not going a good job - but it's a completely different job).

GIN1138 said:

Scott_P said:

@JvdRieth: IMPORTANT (and insane if true) https://twitter.com/LeaveHQ/status/907692257200963584

More:

https://twitter.com/LeaveHQ/status/907692456170409985

https://twitter.com/LeaveHQ/status/907692570167345152

https://twitter.com/LeaveHQ/status/907692638274539520

Interesting.

Richard_Nabavi said:

Mortimer said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Scott_P said:

@paulwaugh: It's happened folks. Govt wins vote to secure Tory majority in cttees, by 320 to 301. V signif

It does seem as if the Government whips are highly organised and doing a very good job for Theresa May. For all the doubts the party does seem to be disciplined and getting out their vote

Williamson is doing a sterling job.

Worth a few quid as an outside chance as next leader, perhaps.

Nope. Not a chance.

(Which isn't to say that he's not going a good job - but it's a completely different job).

Very true, but his exaction of loyalty from the Tory benches is more than impressive, even in the face of Brexit and the Corbyn threat.

What makes you so sure he isn't in with a shot Richard?

Richard_Nabavi said:

Sean_F said:

I don't think that no deal is the preferred outcome. But, it is a possible outcome.

It seems to be the outcome our EU friends want, so we certainly need to plan for it.

I thought this article in Prospect on why No Deal might not be as bad as some think was really interesting. Thoughts?

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/a-no-deal-brexit-might-not-be-as-bad-as-you-think

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Scott_P said:

GIN1138 said:

???

It's May's attempt to secure the Parliamentary majority denied her by the bloody voters.

She now has a guaranteed majority on every committee scrutinising Brexit

Awesome!

Good politics by the whips then

Indeed. The baloney about Corbyn being a PM in waiting is shown up as such by the fact that politics is largely about process, and sometimes rather technical process at that; Corbyn doesn't seem to have got to grips with that.

For all Miliband's faults, he understood Parly procedure. Probably because he didn't spend his entire career sniping from the back benches and preaching to choirs in Islington,