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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » NEW PB / Polling Matters podcast – Hurricanes, Trump’s approva

SystemSystem Posts: 11,723
edited September 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » NEW PB / Polling Matters podcast – Hurricanes, Trump’s approval rating, the EU withdrawal bill & Tory attempts to woo young voters

 

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  • Options
    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    No posting allowed for 23:34 minutes.
  • Options
    Ishmael_Z said:

    No posting allowed for 23:34 minutes.

    I've already listened to the podcast.
  • Options
    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    Ishmael_Z said:

    No posting allowed for 23:34 minutes.

    I've already listened to the podcast.
    So post!
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 59,022
    Ishmael_Z said:

    No posting allowed for 23:34 minutes.

    I'm saving it for my commute home ;)
  • Options
    DadgeDadge Posts: 2,038
    *reins
  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Ishmael_Z said:

    No posting allowed for 23:34 minutes.

    Why? do we have to listen to a preview ad from Kim Jong Corbyn first?
  • Options
    Dadge said:

    *reins

    Ta, fixed now.

    Can I blame autocorrect?

  • Options
    http://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUKKCN1BN24R

    Deepening uncertainties over the direction and timetable of Brexit negotiations may force Toyota (7203.T) to shift some UK production elsewhere if they are not addressed, the Japanese carmaker warned on Tuesday.
  • Options

    Faisal Islam? Mr 'impartial' himself?

  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 59,022

    twitter.com/faisalislam/status/907667683344297985


    Faisal Islam? Mr 'impartial' himself?

    I'll never forget his contempt for Gove in the pre-referendum interviews.
  • Options

    They think it's all over...

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41245719

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    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    What a roll call of clients: Zuma, Gupta, Pistorius, Assad, Lukashenko, Pinochet.
  • Options
    RobD said:

    twitter.com/faisalislam/status/907667683344297985


    Faisal Islam? Mr 'impartial' himself?

    I'll never forget his contempt for Gove in the pre-referendum interviews.
    Gove who said Brexit would start the 'democratic liberation of a whole continent'? Contempt is the correct response.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 59,022

    RobD said:

    twitter.com/faisalislam/status/907667683344297985


    Faisal Islam? Mr 'impartial' himself?

    I'll never forget his contempt for Gove in the pre-referendum interviews.
    Gove who said Brexit would start the 'democratic liberation of a whole continent'? Contempt is the correct response.
    Not form a supposedly neutral political interviewer.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    This is harsh

    @estwebber: Labour's Valerie Vaz says Andrea Leadsom has been "sent on in a bright outfit like that TV presenter from N Korea to tell us all is well"

    Ri Chun-hee should feel mightily aggrieved

  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    RobD said:

    I'll never forget his contempt for Gove in the pre-referendum interviews.

    Gove who said "We have had enough of experts"

    Every sentient being should hold him in contempt
  • Options
    Scott_P said:

    This is harsh

    @estwebber: Labour's Valerie Vaz says Andrea Leadsom has been "sent on in a bright outfit like that TV presenter from N Korea to tell us all is well"

    Ri Chun-hee should feel mightily aggrieved

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjt29MuBF0E
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,013
    Scott_P said:

    RobD said:

    I'll never forget his contempt for Gove in the pre-referendum interviews.

    Gove who said "We have had enough of experts"

    Every sentient being should hold him in contempt
    Why?
  • Options
    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Scott_P said:

    RobD said:

    I'll never forget his contempt for Gove in the pre-referendum interviews.

    Gove who said "We have had enough of experts"

    Every sentient being should hold him in contempt
    Have you been lobotomised?

    For starters he didn't say that, he said that the people had had enough of experts from organisations with acronyms in their names saying they know what is best for everyone and who have been consistently wrong. And he seems to have been right about that, given the result, doesn't he? In fact we should recognise and revere him as an expert, surely?

    Here we are, 1:05 in:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGgiGtJk7MA

    But watch the whole thing, because you can tell from everything Islam says and everything he does, why you lost. Or rather you personally can't because the mindset which made you lose also makes you think that the sole reason you lost was yebbutbus.

    And for the millionth bloody time, if you cannot distinguish between an expert and mystic Meg, how do you explain the fact that all the professors of economics in the world do not have their own LearJets?
  • Options
    Scott_P said:

    RobD said:

    I'll never forget his contempt for Gove in the pre-referendum interviews.

    Gove who said "We have had enough of experts"

    Every sentient being should hold him in contempt
    Gove who was saying "we have had enough of experts from organisations with acronyms saying that they know what is best and getting it consistently wrong" - the bit you missed at the end is kind of important but then if you were trying to be honest you'd be a different person.

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/01/michael-gove-was-accidentally-right-about-experts/
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,013

    RobD said:

    twitter.com/faisalislam/status/907667683344297985


    Faisal Islam? Mr 'impartial' himself?

    I'll never forget his contempt for Gove in the pre-referendum interviews.
    Gove who said Brexit would start the 'democratic liberation of a whole continent'? Contempt is the correct response.
    He was mean to the EU. How horrid.
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,960
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Scott_P said:

    RobD said:

    I'll never forget his contempt for Gove in the pre-referendum interviews.

    Gove who said "We have had enough of experts"

    Every sentient being should hold him in contempt
    Have you been lobotomised?

    For starters he didn't say that, he said that the people had had enough of experts from organisations with acronyms in their names saying they know what is best for everyone and who have been consistently wrong. And he seems to have been right about that, given the result, doesn't he? In fact we should recognise and revere him as an expert, surely?

    Here we are, 1:05 in:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGgiGtJk7MA

    But watch the whole thing, because you can tell from everything Islam says and everything he does, why you lost. Or rather you personally can't because the mindset which made you lose also makes you think that the sole reason you lost was yebbutbus.

    And for the millionth bloody time, if you cannot distinguish between an expert and mystic Meg, how do you explain the fact that all the professors of economics in the world do not have their own LearJets?
    Most of the world's acronymed experts vs a bus. And the bus won. Says a lot for experts and their adherents, doesn't it...
  • Options
    OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469

    Ishmael_Z said:

    No posting allowed for 23:34 minutes.

    Why? do we have to listen to a preview ad from Kim Jong Corbyn first?
    Nope! Dim Sum May......
  • Options
    Mortimer said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Scott_P said:

    RobD said:

    I'll never forget his contempt for Gove in the pre-referendum interviews.

    Gove who said "We have had enough of experts"

    Every sentient being should hold him in contempt
    Have you been lobotomised?

    For starters he didn't say that, he said that the people had had enough of experts from organisations with acronyms in their names saying they know what is best for everyone and who have been consistently wrong. And he seems to have been right about that, given the result, doesn't he? In fact we should recognise and revere him as an expert, surely?

    Here we are, 1:05 in:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGgiGtJk7MA

    But watch the whole thing, because you can tell from everything Islam says and everything he does, why you lost. Or rather you personally can't because the mindset which made you lose also makes you think that the sole reason you lost was yebbutbus.

    And for the millionth bloody time, if you cannot distinguish between an expert and mystic Meg, how do you explain the fact that all the professors of economics in the world do not have their own LearJets?
    Most of the world's acronymed experts vs a bus. And the bus won. Says a lot for experts and their adherents, doesn't it...

    There should be a song about that...

    "They fought the bus, and the bus won". [repeat]

  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Mortimer said:

    Most of the world's acronymed experts vs a bus. And the bus won. Says a lot for experts and their adherents, doesn't it...

    They were right and the bus was wrong

    Says a lot for the voters, doesn't it...
  • Options
    Scott_P said:

    Mortimer said:

    Most of the world's acronymed experts vs a bus. And the bus won. Says a lot for experts and their adherents, doesn't it...

    They were right and the bus was wrong

    Says a lot for the voters, doesn't it...
    They were right? When was the immediate recession they said there'd be?
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,960
    Scott_P said:

    Mortimer said:

    Most of the world's acronymed experts vs a bus. And the bus won. Says a lot for experts and their adherents, doesn't it...

    They were right and the bus was wrong

    Says a lot for the voters, doesn't it...
    It says that we dont trust people just 'because' when it goes against gut instinct.

    The case for Euroliberalism may be obvious to those who have done well out of it; but it is far from obvious to those who have lost out. The fact that those who have won seemed not only to care little for those who have lost, but failed even to make the case successfully vs an inanimate object sums up why the usual winners lost that referendum.
  • Options
    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Scott_P said:

    Mortimer said:

    Most of the world's acronymed experts vs a bus. And the bus won. Says a lot for experts and their adherents, doesn't it...

    They were right and the bus was wrong

    Says a lot for the voters, doesn't it...
    That post is why you lost, compressed into 16 words. I don't think we are going to get through to you.
  • Options
    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    edited September 2017

    htps://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/907667683344297985


    Faisal Islam? Mr 'impartial' himself?

    This fellow

    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/907669524421513216

    htps://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/907680313727504384

    A proper journalist who Caught up with head of German auto industry body would have asked him a lot about emissions cheating, but that would be like mentioning the war, I suppose.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Mortimer said:

    The case for Euroliberalism may be obvious to those who have done well out of it; but it is far from obvious to those who have lost out. The fact that those who have won seemed not only to care little for those who have lost, but failed even to make the case successfully vs an inanimate object sums up why the usual winners lost that referendum.

    The tragedy being, of course, that the worst losers from the outcome of Brexit will be those very people who felt like losers before.

    Brexit will not deliver £350m for the NHS

    Brexit will not reduce hospital waiting times

    Brexit will not create lots of new high skilled jobs in post industrial towns

    Brexit will not lower their cost of living

    All of the lies that bought their votes are turning to dust.

    You might be right that they will blame the experts for the resulting mess, but they should reserve their contempt for Gove and his accomplices
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Ishmael_Z said:

    That post is why you lost, compressed into 16 words. I don't think we are going to get through to you.

    I know exactly why remain lost.

    Doesn't change the fact that Brexit is the greatest policy fuckup of my lifetime, nor dim my contempt for those who peddled it
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,221
    Scott_P said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    That post is why you lost, compressed into 16 words. I don't think we are going to get through to you.

    I know exactly why remain lost.

    Doesn't change the fact that Brexit is the greatest policy fuckup of my lifetime, nor dim my contempt for those who peddled it
    Bailing out the banks is the biggest mistake of my lifetime, though maybe you weren't born then...
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,013
    Scott_P said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    That post is why you lost, compressed into 16 words. I don't think we are going to get through to you.

    I know exactly why remain lost.

    Doesn't change the fact that Brexit is the greatest policy fuckup of my lifetime, nor dim my contempt for those who peddled it
    Remain lost, because people had experienced the EU, and didn't like it.

    You will think that they ought to have liked it, but there it is.
  • Options
    Sean_F said:

    Remain lost, because people had experienced the EU, and didn't like it.

    If that's the case, why did the Leave campaign rely on egregious lying?
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,960
    tlg86 said:

    Scott_P said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    That post is why you lost, compressed into 16 words. I don't think we are going to get through to you.

    I know exactly why remain lost.

    Doesn't change the fact that Brexit is the greatest policy fuckup of my lifetime, nor dim my contempt for those who peddled it
    Bailing out the banks is the biggest mistake of my lifetime, though maybe you weren't born then...
    Was it? I honestly think not bailing out the banks would have been the worst economic decision since the 30s....
  • Options
    Scott_P said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    That post is why you lost, compressed into 16 words. I don't think we are going to get through to you.

    I know exactly why remain lost.

    Doesn't change the fact that Brexit is the greatest policy fuckup of my lifetime, nor dim my contempt for those who peddled it
    It might well be a fuckup, but surely a fair share of the blame lies with your mates Cameron and Osborne who never put forward a positive case to stay in the EU? Do you have the same contempt for the fucking eejits who ran such a wanky Remain campaign that Nigel Farage came out of it on top?
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,960
    Scott_P said:

    Mortimer said:

    The case for Euroliberalism may be obvious to those who have done well out of it; but it is far from obvious to those who have lost out. The fact that those who have won seemed not only to care little for those who have lost, but failed even to make the case successfully vs an inanimate object sums up why the usual winners lost that referendum.

    The tragedy being, of course, that the worst losers from the outcome of Brexit will be those very people who felt like losers before.

    Brexit will not deliver £350m for the NHS

    Brexit will not reduce hospital waiting times

    Brexit will not create lots of new high skilled jobs in post industrial towns

    Brexit will not lower their cost of living

    All of the lies that bought their votes are turning to dust.

    You might be right that they will blame the experts for the resulting mess, but they should reserve their contempt for Gove and his accomplices
    I disagree, but thanks for rising above the yah boo sucks in this post.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,221
    Mortimer said:

    tlg86 said:

    Scott_P said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    That post is why you lost, compressed into 16 words. I don't think we are going to get through to you.

    I know exactly why remain lost.

    Doesn't change the fact that Brexit is the greatest policy fuckup of my lifetime, nor dim my contempt for those who peddled it
    Bailing out the banks is the biggest mistake of my lifetime, though maybe you weren't born then...
    Was it? I honestly think not bailing out the banks would have been the worst economic decision since the 30s....
    I'm not sure things have worked out too well since. Whilst I was winding up Scott with the last bit my real point to Scott and other Remainers is that Brexit didn't happen magically. A number of factors contributed to it not least the sense that there is an untouchable clique that have to be protected. Enough people decided that it was worth rolling the dice and given the way things have gone since 2008, I don't blame them.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    edited September 2017
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,013

    Sean_F said:

    Remain lost, because people had experienced the EU, and didn't like it.

    If that's the case, why did the Leave campaign rely on egregious lying?
    The Leave campaign weren't pied pipers who somehow bewitched 17m people into voting their way.

    For years, there was public unhappiness at the EU. This crystallised when we were offered a referendum on the EU constitution at the 2005 election, and then denied it, when it was renamed the Lisbon Treaty. Your own side's bad faith undermined your cause.

    There would never have been a referendum on EU membership if the public had been happy to be members of it.
  • Options
    MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,240
    edited September 2017
    https://mobile.twitter.com/OliverNorgrove/status/907687683128004608

    Interesting thread.

    Don't suppose the true beleeeeeeeavers on here will turn a hair as they lurch towards the rapture.
  • Options
    AnnaAnna Posts: 59
    tlg86 said:

    Scott_P said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    That post is why you lost, compressed into 16 words. I don't think we are going to get through to you.

    I know exactly why remain lost.

    Doesn't change the fact that Brexit is the greatest policy fuckup of my lifetime, nor dim my contempt for those who peddled it
    Bailing out the banks is the biggest mistake of my lifetime, though maybe you weren't born then...
    How about subsidising diesel cars? https://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/oct/01/uk-government-wrong-to-subsidise-diesel-says-former-minister
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,013

    https://mobile.twitter.com/OliverNorgrove/status/907687683128004608

    Interesting thread.

    Don't suppose the true beleeeeeeeavers on here will turn a hair as they lurch towards the rapture.

    Surely, it would be of greater concern if the Treasury did not make preparations for No Deal.
  • Options
    MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,240
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Remain lost, because people had experienced the EU, and didn't like it.

    If that's the case, why did the Leave campaign rely on egregious lying?
    The Leave campaign weren't pied pipers who somehow bewitched 17m people into voting their way.

    For years, there was public unhappiness at the EU. This crystallised when we were offered a referendum on the EU constitution at the 2005 election, and then denied it, when it was renamed the Lisbon Treaty. Your own side's bad faith undermined your cause.

    There would never have been a referendum on EU membership if the public had been happy to be members of it.
    There was public unhappiness largely because a few media and establishment plutocrats conducted a 30 year grooming exercise aimed at ridiculing and painting in a negative light virtually everything the EU did.

    Why? Because they felt it threatened their power.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,013

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Remain lost, because people had experienced the EU, and didn't like it.

    If that's the case, why did the Leave campaign rely on egregious lying?
    The Leave campaign weren't pied pipers who somehow bewitched 17m people into voting their way.

    For years, there was public unhappiness at the EU. This crystallised when we were offered a referendum on the EU constitution at the 2005 election, and then denied it, when it was renamed the Lisbon Treaty. Your own side's bad faith undermined your cause.

    There would never have been a referendum on EU membership if the public had been happy to be members of it.
    There was public unhappiness largely because a few media and establishment plutocrats conducted a 30 year grooming exercise aimed at ridiculing and painting in a negative light virtually everything the EU did.

    Why? Because they felt it threatened their power.
    The EU is no threat to the power of any plutocrat.
  • Options
    Sean_F said:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/OliverNorgrove/status/907687683128004608

    Interesting thread.

    Don't suppose the true beleeeeeeeavers on here will turn a hair as they lurch towards the rapture.

    Surely, it would be of greater concern if the Treasury did not make preparations for No Deal.
    Indeed it would be negligent. Work for the best but prepare for the worst.
  • Options
    Scott_P said:
    Why insane? It's a formality, she's already announce we are exiting.
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,159
    edited September 2017
    Sean_F said:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/OliverNorgrove/status/907687683128004608

    Interesting thread.

    Don't suppose the true beleeeeeeeavers on here will turn a hair as they lurch towards the rapture.

    Surely, it would be of greater concern if the Treasury did not make preparations for No Deal.
    It's one thing to make preparations for lightning

    It's another thing to stand in a tin bath full of water on top of a mountain in a thunderstorm whilst waving a long steel rod and tinfoil hat whilst screaming "THOR IS A TWAT!"
  • Options
    https://www.independent.co.uk/editions/uk.co.independent.issue.120917/data/7940836/index.html

    Britain’s new chief trade deal negotiator has backed plans for the UK to scrap its local regulations in exchange for getting a free deal from other countries.

    Crawford Falconer was appointed chief trade negotiation adviser by Liam Fox’s Department for International Trade last month after a lengthy and expensive selection process. Mr Falconer was a member of the The Legatum Institute think tank’s “special trade commission”, which drew up a report calling for Britain’s regulations to be “on the table” in negotiations with other countries.

    The report, which bears Mr Falconer’s name, said the UK would have to leave the European Economic Area so that its regulations would be able to differ from those of the EU if required by the UK’s future trade partners. This approach would allow it to negotiate free trade deals with other countries that include services, the report said.
  • Options
    MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,240
    Sean_F said:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/OliverNorgrove/status/907687683128004608

    Interesting thread.

    Don't suppose the true beleeeeeeeavers on here will turn a hair as they lurch towards the rapture.

    Surely, it would be of greater concern if the Treasury did not make preparations for No Deal.
    The trouble is, a significant part of the Tory party seem to be indicating no deal is their preferred outcome. Including I suspect the odious May, who now seems to envisage herself a latter day Boadicea. With her reputation already in ruins, I think she sees this as the one shot at redemption.

    She's the gambling addict who's down to her last 2 quid on the second day of Cheltenham and has decided to throw it on a 50-1 shot.
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,159
    Charles said:
    Pause

    You know that can be taken two ways, right?
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    viewcode said:

    Sean_F said:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/OliverNorgrove/status/907687683128004608

    Interesting thread.

    Don't suppose the true beleeeeeeeavers on here will turn a hair as they lurch towards the rapture.

    Surely, it would be of greater concern if the Treasury did not make preparations for No Deal.
    It's one thing to make preparations for lightning

    It's another thing to stand in a tin bath full of water on top of a mountain in a thunderstorm whilst waving a long steel rod and tinfoil hat whilst screaming "THOR IS A TWAT!"
    Post of the day....
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,013

    Sean_F said:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/OliverNorgrove/status/907687683128004608

    Interesting thread.

    Don't suppose the true beleeeeeeeavers on here will turn a hair as they lurch towards the rapture.

    Surely, it would be of greater concern if the Treasury did not make preparations for No Deal.
    The trouble is, a significant part of the Tory party seem to be indicating no deal is their preferred outcome. Including I suspect the odious May, who now seems to envisage herself a latter day Boadicea. With her reputation already in ruins, I think she sees this as the one shot at redemption.

    She's the gambling addict who's down to her last 2 quid on the second day of Cheltenham and has decided to throw it on a 50-1 shot.
    I don't think that no deal is the preferred outcome. But, it is a possible outcome.
  • Options
    MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,240
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Remain lost, because people had experienced the EU, and didn't like it.

    If that's the case, why did the Leave campaign rely on egregious lying?
    The Leave campaign weren't pied pipers who somehow bewitched 17m people into voting their way.

    For years, there was public unhappiness at the EU. This crystallised when we were offered a referendum on the EU constitution at the 2005 election, and then denied it, when it was renamed the Lisbon Treaty. Your own side's bad faith undermined your cause.

    There would never have been a referendum on EU membership if the public had been happy to be members of it.
    There was public unhappiness largely because a few media and establishment plutocrats conducted a 30 year grooming exercise aimed at ridiculing and painting in a negative light virtually everything the EU did.

    Why? Because they felt it threatened their power.
    The EU is no threat to the power of any plutocrat.
    Nonsense. For the powerful divide and conquer is always the preferred option.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,013
    viewcode said:

    Sean_F said:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/OliverNorgrove/status/907687683128004608

    Interesting thread.

    Don't suppose the true beleeeeeeeavers on here will turn a hair as they lurch towards the rapture.

    Surely, it would be of greater concern if the Treasury did not make preparations for No Deal.
    It's one thing to make preparations for lightning

    It's another thing to stand in a tin bath full of water on top of a mountain in a thunderstorm whilst waving a long steel rod and tinfoil hat whilst screaming "THOR IS A TWAT!"
    Do you think that is what the Treasury is doing?
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    tlg86 said:

    Mortimer said:

    tlg86 said:

    Scott_P said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    That post is why you lost, compressed into 16 words. I don't think we are going to get through to you.

    I know exactly why remain lost.

    Doesn't change the fact that Brexit is the greatest policy fuckup of my lifetime, nor dim my contempt for those who peddled it
    Bailing out the banks is the biggest mistake of my lifetime, though maybe you weren't born then...
    Was it? I honestly think not bailing out the banks would have been the worst economic decision since the 30s....
    I'm not sure things have worked out too well since. Whilst I was winding up Scott with the last bit my real point to Scott and other Remainers is that Brexit didn't happen magically. A number of factors contributed to it not least the sense that there is an untouchable clique that have to be protected. Enough people decided that it was worth rolling the dice and given the way things have gone since 2008, I don't blame them.
    In my experience, when people say "it couldn't get worse", it almost always does.
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,960
    edited September 2017
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/OliverNorgrove/status/907687683128004608

    Interesting thread.

    Don't suppose the true beleeeeeeeavers on here will turn a hair as they lurch towards the rapture.

    Surely, it would be of greater concern if the Treasury did not make preparations for No Deal.
    The trouble is, a significant part of the Tory party seem to be indicating no deal is their preferred outcome. Including I suspect the odious May, who now seems to envisage herself a latter day Boadicea. With her reputation already in ruins, I think she sees this as the one shot at redemption.

    She's the gambling addict who's down to her last 2 quid on the second day of Cheltenham and has decided to throw it on a 50-1 shot.
    I don't think that no deal is the preferred outcome. But, it is a possible outcome.
    The other problem is increasingly, even amongst the cognoscenti on PB, that there is a conflation of so-called 'Hard Brexit', i.e. not in the CU or SM, with a No Deal Brexit. I don't think anyone really supports a no deal at any costs view. Partisan opponents are trying to paint the Tories as such, mind.
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    nielhnielh Posts: 1,307
    Sean_F said:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/OliverNorgrove/status/907687683128004608

    Interesting thread.

    Don't suppose the true beleeeeeeeavers on here will turn a hair as they lurch towards the rapture.

    Surely, it would be of greater concern if the Treasury did not make preparations for No Deal.
    Amazing if it is only now that the Treasury are starting to make preperations for No deal.
    Weren't we told some time ago, no deal was better than a bad deal?


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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,159

    Scott_P said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    That post is why you lost, compressed into 16 words. I don't think we are going to get through to you.

    I know exactly why remain lost.

    Doesn't change the fact that Brexit is the greatest policy fuckup of my lifetime, nor dim my contempt for those who peddled it
    It might well be a fuckup, but surely a fair share of the blame lies with your mates Cameron and Osborne who never put forward a positive case to stay in the EU? Do you have the same contempt for the fucking eejits who ran such a wanky Remain campaign that Nigel Farage came out of it on top?
    Indeed. I pointed out a few weeks ago that the 70's referendum was the result of many years patient (ahem) opinion management stretching over more than one government, whereas the 2016 referendum was cobbled together by Cameron at the last minute and included such luminaries as the Marks and Spencer guy and June Sarpong.

    However, my contempt for such irresponsible amateurism does not make me more relaxed about the present government's fixation on painstakingly finding the stupidest course of action and then heading directly for it at full pelt.
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,159

    viewcode said:

    Sean_F said:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/OliverNorgrove/status/907687683128004608

    Interesting thread.

    Don't suppose the true beleeeeeeeavers on here will turn a hair as they lurch towards the rapture.

    Surely, it would be of greater concern if the Treasury did not make preparations for No Deal.
    It's one thing to make preparations for lightning

    It's another thing to stand in a tin bath full of water on top of a mountain in a thunderstorm whilst waving a long steel rod and tinfoil hat whilst screaming "THOR IS A TWAT!"
    Post of the day....
    :)
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    https://www.independent.co.uk/editions/uk.co.independent.issue.120917/data/7940836/index.html

    Britain’s new chief trade deal negotiator has backed plans for the UK to scrap its local regulations in exchange for getting a free deal from other countries.

    Crawford Falconer was appointed chief trade negotiation adviser by Liam Fox’s Department for International Trade last month after a lengthy and expensive selection process. Mr Falconer was a member of the The Legatum Institute think tank’s “special trade commission”, which drew up a report calling for Britain’s regulations to be “on the table” in negotiations with other countries.

    The report, which bears Mr Falconer’s name, said the UK would have to leave the European Economic Area so that its regulations would be able to differ from those of the EU if required by the UK’s future trade partners. This approach would allow it to negotiate free trade deals with other countries that include services, the report said.

    Awesome!
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    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Remain lost, because people had experienced the EU, and didn't like it.

    If that's the case, why did the Leave campaign rely on egregious lying?
    The Leave campaign weren't pied pipers who somehow bewitched 17m people into voting their way.

    For years, there was public unhappiness at the EU. This crystallised when we were offered a referendum on the EU constitution at the 2005 election, and then denied it, when it was renamed the Lisbon Treaty. Your own side's bad faith undermined your cause.

    There would never have been a referendum on EU membership if the public had been happy to be members of it.
    There was public unhappiness largely because a few media and establishment plutocrats conducted a 30 year grooming exercise aimed at ridiculing and painting in a negative light virtually everything the EU did.

    Why? Because they felt it threatened their power.
    Every word of that post is a lie, including "a" and "and". The sort of conspiracy theory that gives conspiracy theories a bad name, kind of the Protocols of the Elders of Brexit.
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    MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,240
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Remain lost, because people had experienced the EU, and didn't like it.

    If that's the case, why did the Leave campaign rely on egregious lying?
    The Leave campaign weren't pied pipers who somehow bewitched 17m people into voting their way.

    For years, there was public unhappiness at the EU. This crystallised when we were offered a referendum on the EU constitution at the 2005 election, and then denied it, when it was renamed the Lisbon Treaty. Your own side's bad faith undermined your cause.

    There would never have been a referendum on EU membership if the public had been happy to be members of it.
    There was public unhappiness largely because a few media and establishment plutocrats conducted a 30 year grooming exercise aimed at ridiculing and painting in a negative light virtually everything the EU did.

    Why? Because they felt it threatened their power.
    Every word of that post is a lie, including "a" and "and". The sort of conspiracy theory that gives conspiracy theories a bad name, kind of the Protocols of the Elders of Brexit.
    You must have been living in a different dimension Ishmael. One where the only newspaper was the Guardian.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,279
    edited September 2017
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Have you been lobotomised?

    For starters he didn't say that, he said that the people had had enough of experts from organisations with acronyms in their names saying they know what is best for everyone and who have been consistently wrong. And he seems to have been right about that, given the result, doesn't he? In fact we should recognise and revere him as an expert, surely?

    How about this quote from Gove a couple of days before the vote:

    'We have to be careful about historical comparisons, but Albert Einstein during the 1930s was denounced by the German authorities for being wrong and his theories were denounced, and one of the reasons of course he was denounced was because he was Jewish.

    'They got 100 German scientists in the pay of the government to say that he was wrong and Einstein said: 'Look, if I was wrong, one would have been enough.'''
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    YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    edited September 2017
    I have no sympathy with the Tories who say they lost seats because Jeremy Corbyn was allowed to make uncosted promises.

    I have no sympathy with Remainers who say they lost the Referendum because Leave lied on the side of a bus.

    Politicians lie. It is the job of their opponents to expose the lies and convince the electorate of the truth.

    It was the job of the Tories to demonstrate that Corbyn's promises were uncosted. It was the job of Remainers to demonstrate the benefits of the EU.

    The Tories did not do it. Remainers did not do it. They failed and they lost. They only have themselves to blame.
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,943

    I have no sympathy with the Tories who say they lost seats because Jeremy Corbyn was allowed to make uncosted promises.

    I have no sympathy with Remainers who say they lost the Referendum because Leave lied on the side of a bus.

    Politicians lie. It is the job of their opponents to expose the lies and convince the electorate of the truth.

    It was the job of the Tories to demonstrate that Corbyn's promises were uncosted. It was the job of Remainers to demonstrate the benefits of the EU.

    The Tories did not do it. Remainers did not do it. They failed and they lost. They only have themselves to blame.

    That used to be roughly OGH's position but since the referendum he's got bitter about the £350m pledge,,,
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Mortimer said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/OliverNorgrove/status/907687683128004608

    Interesting thread.

    Don't suppose the true beleeeeeeeavers on here will turn a hair as they lurch towards the rapture.

    Surely, it would be of greater concern if the Treasury did not make preparations for No Deal.
    The trouble is, a significant part of the Tory party seem to be indicating no deal is their preferred outcome. Including I suspect the odious May, who now seems to envisage herself a latter day Boadicea. With her reputation already in ruins, I think she sees this as the one shot at redemption.

    She's the gambling addict who's down to her last 2 quid on the second day of Cheltenham and has decided to throw it on a 50-1 shot.
    I don't think that no deal is the preferred outcome. But, it is a possible outcome.
    The other problem is increasingly, even amongst the cognoscenti on PB, that there is a conflation of so-called 'Hard Brexit', i.e. not in the CU or SM, with a No Deal Brexit. I don't think anyone really supports a no deal at any costs view. Partisan opponents are trying to paint the Tories as such, mind.
    I think hard WTO Brexit is the most likely outcome, albeit not yet nailed on.

    Neither side is seriously negotiating, the EU because its hands are tied by plans agreed in advance and not easily ammended, and the UK because it is led by clowns thinking of their own leadership bids rather than the task in hand.

    It will be at some point that UKhas fto choose between the EU27 deal, or WTO Brexit. The first is electoral suicide, whilst the WTO is the same.
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    Ally_BAlly_B Posts: 185

    I have no sympathy with the Tories who say they lost seats because Jeremy Corbyn was allowed to make uncosted promises. The Tories did not do it. Retainers did not do it. They failed and they lost. They only have themselves to blame.

    None are so deaf as those who do not want to hear. Unfortunately the cost to our country of leaving the EU can be heard loud and clear by those who have the ears to hear.
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,159
    Sean_F said:

    viewcode said:

    Sean_F said:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/OliverNorgrove/status/907687683128004608

    Interesting thread.

    Don't suppose the true beleeeeeeeavers on here will turn a hair as they lurch towards the rapture.

    Surely, it would be of greater concern if the Treasury did not make preparations for No Deal.
    It's one thing to make preparations for lightning

    It's another thing to stand in a tin bath full of water on top of a mountain in a thunderstorm whilst waving a long steel rod and tinfoil hat whilst screaming "THOR IS A TWAT!"
    Do you think that is what the Treasury is doing?
    That's an...oddly sensible question. What are you doing on PB? :)

    The only thing I know about the Government's activities are a) the position papers, b) what various ministers say, and c) other stuff like leaked tweets.

    From this I think that:
    * The Government has unrealistic ambitions at painfree outcomes. It outlines scenarios without realistic appraisal of what will be needed to achieve them, and uses emotional language to describe them (eg "deep and special"). An example is the NI border, which imagined an open but electronically monitored border (using drones?)
    * There are occasional outbursts from the other direction, which emotionally berate the EU ("stubborn") or, in that case of the rapidly-denied Twitter thing, actually troll it ("Please tell us the legal basis for this number")

    In short, I think the Government is vacillating between two emotional states, is cting from the gut instead of thinking, and isn't in a fit state to do anything right now.

    As a supplemental, I just did a quick speed-read of that Legatum Institute thingy and came away thinking that it was based more on an idealised future than a messy reality...and I don't think it's going to end happily, to be honest.

    Happy to be contradicted, and I do hope I am wrong and this will end with shake-hands and an UK-EU Association Agreement, but I'm not sanguine.

    There y'go. Serious question, serious answer. We good?
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,013

    I have no sympathy with the Tories who say they lost seats because Jeremy Corbyn was allowed to make uncosted promises.

    I have no sympathy with Remainers who say they lost the Referendum because Leave lied on the side of a bus.

    Politicians lie. It is the job of their opponents to expose the lies and convince the electorate of the truth.

    It was the job of the Tories to demonstrate that Corbyn's promises were uncosted. It was the job of Remainers to demonstrate the benefits of the EU.

    The Tories did not do it. Remainers did not do it. They failed and they lost. They only have themselves to blame.

    Hard to disagree with any of that.
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    YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    edited September 2017

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Have you been lobotomised?

    For starters he didn't say that, he said that the people had had enough of experts from organisations with acronyms in their names saying they know what is best for everyone and who have been consistently wrong. And he seems to have been right about that, given the result, doesn't he? In fact we should recognise and revere him as an expert, surely?

    How about this quote from Gove a couple of days before the vote:

    'We have to be careful about historical comparisons, but Albert Einstein during the 1930s was denounced by the German authorities for being wrong and his theories were denounced, and one of the reasons of course he was denounced was because he was Jewish.

    'They got 100 German scientists in the pay of the government to say that he was wrong and Einstein said: 'Look, if I was wrong, one would have been enough.'''

    Correct. There is no appeal to authority in science or in politics.

    Present the evidence, the data, the arguments and let people make up their own mind.

    You don't say we must stay in the EU because All-Powerful All-Knowing Expert William Glenn says so.

    You say we must stay in the EU because ... well, Remainers never actually did finish that sentence, so I don't know why.
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    Sean_F said:

    I have no sympathy with the Tories who say they lost seats because Jeremy Corbyn was allowed to make uncosted promises.

    I have no sympathy with Remainers who say they lost the Referendum because Leave lied on the side of a bus.

    Politicians lie. It is the job of their opponents to expose the lies and convince the electorate of the truth.

    It was the job of the Tories to demonstrate that Corbyn's promises were uncosted. It was the job of Remainers to demonstrate the benefits of the EU.

    The Tories did not do it. Remainers did not do it. They failed and they lost. They only have themselves to blame.

    Hard to disagree with any of that.
    The lies are all on record, and because Leave made the cardinal mistake of winning, they will come back to haunt each and every politician who uttered them.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @paulwaugh: It's happened folks. Govt wins vote to secure Tory majority in cttees, by 320 to 301. V signif
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,159

    https://www.independent.co.uk/editions/uk.co.independent.issue.120917/data/7940836/index.html

    Britain’s new chief trade deal negotiator has backed plans for the UK to scrap its local regulations in exchange for getting a free deal from other countries.

    Crawford Falconer was appointed chief trade negotiation adviser by Liam Fox’s Department for International Trade last month after a lengthy and expensive selection process. Mr Falconer was a member of the The Legatum Institute think tank’s “special trade commission”, which drew up a report calling for Britain’s regulations to be “on the table” in negotiations with other countries.

    The report, which bears Mr Falconer’s name, said the UK would have to leave the European Economic Area so that its regulations would be able to differ from those of the EU if required by the UK’s future trade partners. This approach would allow it to negotiate free trade deals with other countries that include services, the report said.

    Awesome!
    Given that a plurality (is this correct?) of our trade is with the EU, would the advantages of such an approach outweigh the lost EU trade, and - if so - would it do so in time, given that the disadvantages would accrue faster than the advantages?
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,843
    Met up with a German friend of mine yesterday, chatted about politics, the EU etc and FWIW these are his thoughts:

    People in Germany take Freedom of Movement for granted. The idea of passport control as you move across a European border is alien. He lives close to both France and Switzerland.

    He reckons Angela Merkel let in large numbers of Syrian refugees because she wasn't willing to apply border controls against Austria. Once other countries knew Germany would take the refugees, it was easier to let them pass. He is relatively sanguine that the Syrians will integrate.

    He thinks the EU won't reform, although it should, because there's no consensus on what that reform should be.

    He thinks the SPD will join a CDU coalition if they reckon there's no viable alternative government. It's expected of them and they can rationalise it, even though it's not doing them any good from a partisan point of view.
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    Scott_P said:
    That would make very good sense. There's a legal limbo if we don't give that notice, since we'd still be signatories to the EEA treaty in our capacity as EU members, but we wouldn't be in a position to fulfil the obligations of an EU state signed up to the EEA agreement.

    Not sure why it needs a speech from the PM to state the obvious, though.
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,943
    Scott_P said:

    @paulwaugh: It's happened folks. Govt wins vote to secure Tory majority in cttees, by 320 to 301. V signif

    ???
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    Sean_F said:

    I don't think that no deal is the preferred outcome. But, it is a possible outcome.

    It seems to be the outcome our EU friends want, so we certainly need to plan for it.
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,960
    GIN1138 said:

    Scott_P said:

    @paulwaugh: It's happened folks. Govt wins vote to secure Tory majority in cttees, by 320 to 301. V signif

    ???
    Procedural - but the usual Parly arithmetic doesn't really work for large minority govts, and doesn't work at all for minority govts with C&S deals. The vote tonight was about reflecting the reality of the parliamentary landscape on standing cttes.
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    Scott_P said:

    @paulwaugh: It's happened folks. Govt wins vote to secure Tory majority in cttees, by 320 to 301. V signif

    It does seem as if the Government whips are highly organised and doing a very good job for Theresa May. For all the doubts the party does seem to be disciplined and getting out their vote
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,960

    Scott_P said:

    @paulwaugh: It's happened folks. Govt wins vote to secure Tory majority in cttees, by 320 to 301. V signif

    It does seem as if the Government whips are highly organised and doing a very good job for Theresa May. For all the doubts the party does seem to be disciplined and getting out their vote
    Williamson is doing a sterling job.

    Worth a few quid as an outside chance as next leader, perhaps.
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    MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,240
    GIN1138 said:

    Scott_P said:

    @paulwaugh: It's happened folks. Govt wins vote to secure Tory majority in cttees, by 320 to 301. V signif

    ???
    Don't worry, GIN. It's just the Tories ensuring the majority outcomes they failed to win in the election are restored by forcing a majority on all the important committees, against prior convention. Another power grab in other words.
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    Scott_P said:

    @paulwaugh: It's happened folks. Govt wins vote to secure Tory majority in cttees, by 320 to 301. V signif

    Thank God for that. Some good news for once, and one risk factor which might have led to a catastrophic cash-out neutralised. Plenty more risk still exists, of course.
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    Mortimer said:

    Scott_P said:

    @paulwaugh: It's happened folks. Govt wins vote to secure Tory majority in cttees, by 320 to 301. V signif

    It does seem as if the Government whips are highly organised and doing a very good job for Theresa May. For all the doubts the party does seem to be disciplined and getting out their vote
    Williamson is doing a sterling job.

    Worth a few quid as an outside chance as next leader, perhaps.
    I think you could be right - sure those who bet on here may be taking a betting interest in him
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    GIN1138 said:

    ???

    It's May's attempt to secure the Parliamentary majority denied her by the bloody voters.

    She now has a guaranteed majority on every committee scrutinising Brexit

    Awesome!
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    Mortimer said:

    Scott_P said:

    @paulwaugh: It's happened folks. Govt wins vote to secure Tory majority in cttees, by 320 to 301. V signif

    It does seem as if the Government whips are highly organised and doing a very good job for Theresa May. For all the doubts the party does seem to be disciplined and getting out their vote
    Williamson is doing a sterling job.

    Worth a few quid as an outside chance as next leader, perhaps.
    Nope. Not a chance.

    (Which isn't to say that he's not going a good job - but it's a completely different job).
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    MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,240

    Sean_F said:

    I don't think that no deal is the preferred outcome. But, it is a possible outcome.

    It seems to be the outcome our EU friends want, so we certainly need to plan for it.
    All they've said Richard is that we can't have the same benefits from outside. An obvious truism. Beyond that, it's about negotiation in good faith. Something that's difficult when the UK Govt doesn't appear to have a settled view of what it wants.
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    Scott_P said:

    GIN1138 said:

    ???

    It's May's attempt to secure the Parliamentary majority denied her by the bloody voters.

    She now has a guaranteed majority on every committee scrutinising Brexit

    Awesome!
    Good politics by the whips then
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,960

    Mortimer said:

    Scott_P said:

    @paulwaugh: It's happened folks. Govt wins vote to secure Tory majority in cttees, by 320 to 301. V signif

    It does seem as if the Government whips are highly organised and doing a very good job for Theresa May. For all the doubts the party does seem to be disciplined and getting out their vote
    Williamson is doing a sterling job.

    Worth a few quid as an outside chance as next leader, perhaps.
    Nope. Not a chance.

    (Which isn't to say that he's not going a good job - but it's a completely different job).
    Very true, but his exaction of loyalty from the Tory benches is more than impressive, even in the face of Brexit and the Corbyn threat.

    What makes you so sure he isn't in with a shot Richard?
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    MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,240
    Mortimer said:
    She thinks she can call their bluff, but I'm afraid her strategic antennae are pointing in the polar opposite direction to reality again.
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    Sean_F said:

    I don't think that no deal is the preferred outcome. But, it is a possible outcome.

    It seems to be the outcome our EU friends want, so we certainly need to plan for it.
    I thought this article in Prospect on why No Deal might not be as bad as some think was really interesting. Thoughts?

    https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/a-no-deal-brexit-might-not-be-as-bad-as-you-think
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Scott_P said:

    GIN1138 said:

    ???

    It's May's attempt to secure the Parliamentary majority denied her by the bloody voters.

    She now has a guaranteed majority on every committee scrutinising Brexit

    Awesome!
    So it will be fine when Corbyn does the same...
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,960

    Scott_P said:

    GIN1138 said:

    ???

    It's May's attempt to secure the Parliamentary majority denied her by the bloody voters.

    She now has a guaranteed majority on every committee scrutinising Brexit

    Awesome!
    Good politics by the whips then
    Indeed. The baloney about Corbyn being a PM in waiting is shown up as such by the fact that politics is largely about process, and sometimes rather technical process at that; Corbyn doesn't seem to have got to grips with that.

    For all Miliband's faults, he understood Parly procedure. Probably because he didn't spend his entire career sniping from the back benches and preaching to choirs in Islington,
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,960

    Scott_P said:

    GIN1138 said:

    ???

    It's May's attempt to secure the Parliamentary majority denied her by the bloody voters.

    She now has a guaranteed majority on every committee scrutinising Brexit

    Awesome!
    So it will be fine when Corbyn does the same...
    If he can win a vote in Parliament, yes.

    There cannot be many MPs in the house who have been on the losing side of a division as much as Corbo. Hard habit to break.
This discussion has been closed.