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System · September 2017

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Another fascinating insight into Mrs May and her disastrous election campaign

Absolutely fascinating insight by @TomMcTague & @TimRoss_1 on Tory election campaign. Definitely buying their book. https://t.co/myXGOEJId3 pic.twitter.com/5FBcFBnrPH

Read the full story here

DavidL · September 2017

Cameron and Osborne's work in detoxifying the Tory Party was a long from complete. Arguably they should have given it a higher priority but no doubt they thought they had more time.

williamglenn · September 2017

https://twitter.com/stephenkb/status/906809904735899649

Theuniondivvie · September 2017

williamglenn said:
https://twitter.com/stephenkb/status/906809904735899649

'I don't do that,' the Prime Minister said, grimacing.

Sean_F · September 2017

The reaction to the Manchester bombing was surely sensible and reasonable.

another_richard · September 2017

' my own view that David David would make a reasonably competent head of a Wolverhampton Social Security office, and that’s about it. '

David Davis opposed Osborne's tripling of tuition fees.

If he had been listened to the Conservatives wouldn't have crippled themselves among young voters and their parents.

ThomasNashe · September 2017

If you are on the dole in Wolverhampton, please don't depend on your Income Support being paid on time.

Morris_Dancer · September 2017

Good afternoon, everyone.

Mr. F, indeed. The only criticism I recall hearing was Peston's idiotic suggestion May was trying to both unify the country and blame Muslims (or words to that effect).

Dadge · September 2017

Although D Davis is proving to be more of an ass as each day passes, one does have to raise at least one eyebrow at the thought of him uttering the leaden line ‘No-one is closer to Theresa May than I and I, Philip Hammond and Theresa May really run the country.’ Play me the tape and I'll believe it.

CarlottaVance · September 2017

Sean_F said:
The reaction to the Manchester bombing was surely sensible and reasonable.

How long before the queen tweeted condolences?

Meanwhile:

http://hastheresamayresignedyet.com

I think I'll wait for the book to appear in the remaindered bin...

foxinsoxuk · September 2017

Sean_F said:
The reaction to the Manchester bombing was surely sensible and reasonable.

It is the protocol of the times to express sympathies by such means. Obviously it can be fairly superficial, even facile, but it is not something that slows down the serious work.

"Terrible news from XXX. My sympathies are with the victims and their families, and the Emergency services will have all nessecary support from my government"

Pretty generic, but lets people know that the PM is taking an interest.

Quincel · September 2017

Sean_F said:
The reaction to the Manchester bombing was surely sensible and reasonable.

I can't see the harm that a general 'Horrified to hear of the events in Manchester. I am monitoring closely and working with emergency services' or similar would have done. In the age of Twitter, when politicians take seconds to support/attack during political events, I think the public expects leaders to acknowledge major events quickly. She didn't need to give her last word within minutes, but a first word would have been advisable.

Though I agree it wasn't the end of the world either way.

another_richard · September 2017

DavidL said:
Cameron and Osborne's work in detoxifying the Tory Party was a long from complete. Arguably they should have given it a higher priority but no doubt they thought they had more time.

Cameron and Osborne toxified the Conservative party with everyone who graduates £50,000 in debt and with everyone who reaches 30 still renting a room.

They toxified the Conservative party with everyone who were told that net immigration would be reduced to the tens of thousands, who were told that Britain would have a "march of the makers", who were told that "we're all in this together", who were told that there would be no more Middle Eastern warmongering.

HYUFD · September 2017

DavidL said:
Cameron and Osborne's work in detoxifying the Tory Party was a long from complete. Arguably they should have given it a higher priority but no doubt they thought they had more time.

They detoxified the Tories only on issues like gay marriage and climate change, on issues like austerity and interest on student loans they retoxified it, certainly with public sector workers and the under 30s.

What they were good at was things like the IHT cut which appealed to the middle aged and swing voters and the base and the triple lock which appealed to pensioners, May ending the latter and pushing the dementia tax hit Tory support with both groups

Sean_F · September 2017

foxinsoxuk said:

Sean_F said:
The reaction to the Manchester bombing was surely sensible and reasonable.
It is the protocol of the times to express sympathies by such means. Obviously it can be fairly superficial, even facile, but it is not something that slows down the serious work.

"Terrible news from XXX. My sympathies are with the victims and their families, and the Emergency services will have all nessecary support from my government"

Pretty generic, but lets people know that the PM is taking an interest.

I find it rather refreshing that someone in authority would take time to establish the facts, before commenting.

dixiedean · September 2017

another_richard said:

DavidL said:
Cameron and Osborne's work in detoxifying the Tory Party was a long from complete. Arguably they should have given it a higher priority but no doubt they thought they had more time.
Cameron and Osborne toxified the Conservative party with everyone who graduates £50,000 in debt and with everyone who reaches 30 still renting a room.

They toxified the Conservative party with everyone who were told that net immigration would be reduced to the tens of thousands, who were told that Britain would have a "march of the makers", who were told that "we're all in this together", who were told that there would be no more Middle Eastern warmongering.

Not to mention a deficit which would be eliminated within one Parliament.

Sean_F · September 2017

HYUFD said:

DavidL said:
Cameron and Osborne's work in detoxifying the Tory Party was a long from complete. Arguably they should have given it a higher priority but no doubt they thought they had more time.
They detoxified the Tories only on issues like gay marriage and climate change, on issues like austerity and interest on student loans they retoxified it, certainly with public sector workers and the under 30s.

What they were good at was things like the IHT cut which appealed to the middle aged and swing voters and the base and the triple lock which appealed to pensioners, May ending the latter and pushing the dementia tax hit Tory support with both groups

May, Cameron, and Osborne all have tin ears in differing ways.

HYUFD · September 2017

Sean_F said:

HYUFD said:

DavidL said:
Cameron and Osborne's work in detoxifying the Tory Party was a long from complete. Arguably they should have given it a higher priority but no doubt they thought they had more time.
They detoxified the Tories only on issues like gay marriage and climate change, on issues like austerity and interest on student loans they retoxified it, certainly with public sector workers and the under 30s.

What they were good at was things like the IHT cut which appealed to the middle aged and swing voters and the base and the triple lock which appealed to pensioners, May ending the latter and pushing the dementia tax hit Tory support with both groups
May, Cameron, and Osborne all have tin ears in differing ways.

Yes, Osborne of course ran the 2010 campaign when the Tories did not win a majority either.

In terms of winning records Boris, with 2 London Mayoral wins and an EU referendum win beats them all

DavidL · September 2017

another_richard said:

DavidL said:
Cameron and Osborne's work in detoxifying the Tory Party was a long from complete. Arguably they should have given it a higher priority but no doubt they thought they had more time.
Cameron and Osborne toxified the Conservative party with everyone who graduates £50,000 in debt and with everyone who reaches 30 still renting a room.

They toxified the Conservative party with everyone who were told that net immigration would be reduced to the tens of thousands, who were told that Britain would have a "march of the makers", who were told that "we're all in this together", who were told that there would be no more Middle Eastern warmongering.

The grant situation is unsustainable and unacceptable. Where the money is going to come from to do something about it I really don't know. The deficit is going up again already.

stodge · September 2017

Sean_F said:

I find it rather refreshing that someone in authority would take time to establish the facts, before commenting.

"Establishing the facts" can be done pretty quickly in incidents like Manchester and London Bridge in that it's quickly obvious to the blue light commanders on the ground it was a deliberate attack rather than a gas explosion or a man suffering a heart attack at the wheel and ploughing into a group of pedestrians.

In any case, those there are quickly on FB and Twitter if for no other reason than to confirm their own safety and/or check the safety of others.

Whether you like it or not, there are modern rapid communication media out there which are widely used and relied on by large sections of the population. Look at how we are seeing Hurricane Irma in real time battering Florida which wouldn't have happened with Camille forty plus years ago.

That immediacy of information predicates an immediacy of response from the authorities albeit that response may simply be platitudes at an early stage.

another_richard · September 2017

dixiedean said:

another_richard said:

DavidL said:
Cameron and Osborne's work in detoxifying the Tory Party was a long from complete. Arguably they should have given it a higher priority but no doubt they thought they had more time.
Cameron and Osborne toxified the Conservative party with everyone who graduates £50,000 in debt and with everyone who reaches 30 still renting a room.

They toxified the Conservative party with everyone who were told that net immigration would be reduced to the tens of thousands, who were told that Britain would have a "march of the makers", who were told that "we're all in this together", who were told that there would be no more Middle Eastern warmongering.
Not to mention a deficit which would be eliminated within one Parliament.

Indeed.

Yet there was always money for the pet projects of Cameron and Osborne not to mention the vote buying triple lock pensions with all the long term damage that is bringing.

I really don't blame anyone who has suffered from cuts or pay stagnation since 2010 for voting for change.

CarlottaVance · September 2017

Sean_F said:

foxinsoxuk said:

Sean_F said:
The reaction to the Manchester bombing was surely sensible and reasonable.
It is the protocol of the times to express sympathies by such means. Obviously it can be fairly superficial, even facile, but it is not something that slows down the serious work.

"Terrible news from XXX. My sympathies are with the victims and their families, and the Emergency services will have all nessecary support from my government"

Pretty generic, but lets people know that the PM is taking an interest.
I find it rather refreshing that someone in authority would take time to establish the facts, before commenting.

It failed the "Diana test" - emote first, think second.

Theuniondivvie · September 2017

Sean_F said:
The reaction to the Manchester bombing was surely sensible and reasonable.

If only those on here* who almost immediately began to speculate on how it was going to reflect really badly on Corbyn & have an influence on the GE campaign had been similarly measured.

*I'm not suggesting you were one of them.

Essexit · September 2017

The mistake wasn't listening to David Davis about holding an early election - the local elections suggest the Tories really were streets ahead - it was letting Nick Timothy screw up the manifesto and CCHQ screw up the campaign (cf. Mark Wallace).

It turns out Corbyn was a much better campaigner than expected, sure, but a decent Conservative manifesto and campaign would still have got a 50-seat majority.

another_richard · September 2017

DavidL said:

another_richard said:

DavidL said:
Cameron and Osborne's work in detoxifying the Tory Party was a long from complete. Arguably they should have given it a higher priority but no doubt they thought they had more time.
Cameron and Osborne toxified the Conservative party with everyone who graduates £50,000 in debt and with everyone who reaches 30 still renting a room.

They toxified the Conservative party with everyone who were told that net immigration would be reduced to the tens of thousands, who were told that Britain would have a "march of the makers", who were told that "we're all in this together", who were told that there would be no more Middle Eastern warmongering.
The grant situation is unsustainable and unacceptable. Where the money is going to come from to do something about it I really don't know. The deficit is going up again already.

The combination of tripling student fees and triple locking pensions was obscene.

Not only has it done permanent damage to Britain but it ruined the Conservative image as a party of aspiration.

dixiedean · September 2017

another_richard said:

dixiedean said:

another_richard said:

DavidL said:
Cameron and Osborne's work in detoxifying the Tory Party was a long from complete. Arguably they should have given it a higher priority but no doubt they thought they had more time.
Cameron and Osborne toxified the Conservative party with everyone who graduates £50,000 in debt and with everyone who reaches 30 still renting a room.

They toxified the Conservative party with everyone who were told that net immigration would be reduced to the tens of thousands, who were told that Britain would have a "march of the makers", who were told that "we're all in this together", who were told that there would be no more Middle Eastern warmongering.
Not to mention a deficit which would be eliminated within one Parliament.
Indeed.

Yet there was always money for the pet projects of Cameron and Osborne not to mention the vote buying triple lock pensions with all the long term damage that is bringing.

I really don't blame anyone who has suffered from cuts or pay stagnation since 2010 for voting for change.

People were prepared to endure, and indeed actively embrace the Long term Economic Plan, when they thought it would be effective and fairly applied. The constant moving of the goal posts undermined its effectiveness, the examples you provide its fairness.

foxinsoxuk · September 2017

another_richard said:

DavidL said:
Cameron and Osborne's work in detoxifying the Tory Party was a long from complete. Arguably they should have given it a higher priority but no doubt they thought they had more time.
Cameron and Osborne toxified the Conservative party with everyone who graduates £50,000 in debt and with everyone who reaches 30 still renting a room.

They toxified the Conservative party with everyone who were told that net immigration would be reduced to the tens of thousands, who were told that Britain would have a "march of the makers", who were told that "we're all in this together", who were told that there would be no more Middle Eastern warmongering.

I think the evidence of both of these constituencies (youngsters and nationalists) is that previously poor voting turnout groups will turnout, if you give them a strong grievance.

Mrs May's Tories are rather adept at giving people grievences, so ignoring one sector ceases to be electorally astute. She is now antagonising both the young, and also Remainers. It seems that every lash becomes a backlash rather more quickly than historically.

foxinsoxuk · September 2017

Theuniondivvie said:

Sean_F said:
The reaction to the Manchester bombing was surely sensible and reasonable.
If only those on here* who almost immediately began to speculate on how it was going to reflect really badly on Corbyn & have an influence on the GE campaign had been similarly measured.

*I'm not suggesting you were one of them.

There were some such as my good self, and Nick P that pointed out that such events rarely if ever make a difference to the polls or elections. The murder of Jo Cox didn't affect things either. People generally do not react to such events by changing their party politics.

TheScreamingEagles · September 2017

another_richard said:

DavidL said:
Cameron and Osborne's work in detoxifying the Tory Party was a long from complete. Arguably they should have given it a higher priority but no doubt they thought they had more time.
Cameron and Osborne toxified the Conservative party with everyone who graduates £50,000 in debt and with everyone who reaches 30 still renting a room.

They toxified the Conservative party with everyone who were told that net immigration would be reduced to the tens of thousands, who were told that Britain would have a "march of the makers", who were told that "we're all in this together", who were told that there would be no more Middle Eastern warmongering.

Yet they still won a majority despite all of that, and increasing the Tory share of the vote and seats.

DavidL · September 2017

another_richard said:

DavidL said:

another_richard said:

DavidL said:
Cameron and Osborne's work in detoxifying the Tory Party was a long from complete. Arguably they should have given it a higher priority but no doubt they thought they had more time.
Cameron and Osborne toxified the Conservative party with everyone who graduates £50,000 in debt and with everyone who reaches 30 still renting a room.

They toxified the Conservative party with everyone who were told that net immigration would be reduced to the tens of thousands, who were told that Britain would have a "march of the makers", who were told that "we're all in this together", who were told that there would be no more Middle Eastern warmongering.
The grant situation is unsustainable and unacceptable. Where the money is going to come from to do something about it I really don't know. The deficit is going up again already.
The combination of tripling student fees and triple locking pensions was obscene.

Not only has it done permanent damage to Britain but it ruined the Conservative image as a party of aspiration.

I agree the optics were terrible. I think that there are 2 problems. Firstly, the increase in fees have been generalised when they should have been restricted to the most expensive courses to deliver. Secondly, the recent increase in the interest rate was iniquitous massively increasing the burden on the young and will greatly impede them getting into the housing market.

HYUFD · September 2017

Essexit said:
The mistake wasn't listening to David Davis about holding an early election - the local elections suggest the Tories really were streets ahead - it was letting Nick Timothy screw up the manifesto and CCHQ screw up the campaign (cf. Mark Wallace).

It turns out Corbyn was a much better campaigner than expected, sure, but a decent Conservative manifesto and campaign would still have got a 50-seat majority.

True though the Tories actually rose 4% on the local elections, it was just the LDs were down 11% and most of that went to Labour

rural_voter · September 2017

another_richard said:

dixiedean said:

another_richard said:

DavidL said:
Cameron and Osborne's work in detoxifying the Tory Party was a long from complete. Arguably they should have given it a higher priority but no doubt they thought they had more time.
Cameron and Osborne toxified the Conservative party with everyone who graduates £50,000 in debt and with everyone who reaches 30 still renting a room.

They toxified the Conservative party with everyone who were told that net immigration would be reduced to the tens of thousands, who were told that Britain would have a "march of the makers", who were told that "we're all in this together", who were told that there would be no more Middle Eastern warmongering.
Not to mention a deficit which would be eliminated within one Parliament.
Indeed.

Yet there was always money for the pet projects of Cameron and Osborne not to mention the vote buying triple lock pensions with all the long term damage that is bringing.

I really don't blame anyone who has suffered from cuts or pay stagnation since 2010 for voting for change.

There's no long-term damage. Try living on the state pension. The 'old' state pension officially was too low to live on, hence Pension Credit. This was/is paid after means testing, a.k.a a disguised and hence arbitrary higher marginal tax rate.

Even countries hardly known for a generous welfare state - Ireland and the US - pay pensions which are more likely to be enough for a couple or single person to live on. The UK state pension takes a derisory 5% of GDP.

The UK spends £50 bn per year on tax relief on private pensions - part of the Thatcherite legacy. That sum by itself, if added to pension payments instead, would give an adequate state pension and end the argument for good.

ThomasNashe · September 2017

foxinsoxuk said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Sean_F said:
The reaction to the Manchester bombing was surely sensible and reasonable.
If only those on here* who almost immediately began to speculate on how it was going to reflect really badly on Corbyn & have an influence on the GE campaign had been similarly measured.

*I'm not suggesting you were one of them.
There were some such as my good self, and Nick P that pointed out that such events rarely if ever make a difference to the polls or elections. The murder of Jo Cox didn't affect things either. People generally do not react to such events by changing their party politics.

It was actually Mrs May's response to the London Bridge attacks that made me change my intended Tory vote to a Labour one just a few days before the poll. To be precise, when she made this announcement:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-human-rights-laws-terror-legislation-london-attack-tear-up-election-latest-a7776286.html

I then heard Nick Clegg give a devastating excoriation of her on R4 Today - and I finally made up my mind.

another_richard · September 2017

TheScreamingEagles said:

another_richard said:

DavidL said:
Cameron and Osborne's work in detoxifying the Tory Party was a long from complete. Arguably they should have given it a higher priority but no doubt they thought they had more time.
Cameron and Osborne toxified the Conservative party with everyone who graduates £50,000 in debt and with everyone who reaches 30 still renting a room.

They toxified the Conservative party with everyone who were told that net immigration would be reduced to the tens of thousands, who were told that Britain would have a "march of the makers", who were told that "we're all in this together", who were told that there would be no more Middle Eastern warmongering.
Yet they still won a majority despite all of that, and increasing the Tory share of the vote and seats.

Sometimes luck falls your way.

And Cameron was always a lucky politician.

That's not a criticism of Cameron, there are few things better to have than good luck.

But many of the things Cameron and Osborne did are having negative effects on the Conservatives and Britain generally and these negative effects are likely to be long term.

foxinsoxuk · September 2017

ThomasNashe said:

foxinsoxuk said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Sean_F said:
The reaction to the Manchester bombing was surely sensible and reasonable.
If only those on here* who almost immediately began to speculate on how it was going to reflect really badly on Corbyn & have an influence on the GE campaign had been similarly measured.

*I'm not suggesting you were one of them.
There were some such as my good self, and Nick P that pointed out that such events rarely if ever make a difference to the polls or elections. The murder of Jo Cox didn't affect things either. People generally do not react to such events by changing their party politics.
It was actually Mrs May's response to the London Bridge attacks that made me change my intended Tory vote to a Labour one just a few days before the poll. To be precise, when she made this announcement:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-human-rights-laws-terror-legislation-london-attack-tear-up-election-latest-a7776286.html

I then heard Nick Clegg give a devastating excoriation of her on R4 Today - and I finally made up my mind.

Similarly the widely viewed video of a Police Sergeant giving May a hard time over police cuts made me think that (if any effect) the swing might be against the government. That speech where she was rude to the Police Federation came back to bite her.

https://skwawkbox.org/2017/06/04/huge-senior-police-officer-says-may-lying-re-police-nossecurity-ge17-kirkham/

Theuniondivvie · September 2017

foxinsoxuk said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Sean_F said:
The reaction to the Manchester bombing was surely sensible and reasonable.
If only those on here* who almost immediately began to speculate on how it was going to reflect really badly on Corbyn & have an influence on the GE campaign had been similarly measured.

*I'm not suggesting you were one of them.
There were some such as my good self, and Nick P that pointed out that such events rarely if ever make a difference to the polls or elections. The murder of Jo Cox didn't affect things either. People generally do not react to such events by changing their party politics.

I tend to agree, it was more the lack of class that struck me.

another_richard · September 2017

DavidL said:

another_richard said:

DavidL said:

another_richard said:

DavidL said:
Cameron and Osborne's work in detoxifying the Tory Party was a long from complete. Arguably they should have given it a higher priority but no doubt they thought they had more time.
Cameron and Osborne toxified the Conservative party with everyone who graduates £50,000 in debt and with everyone who reaches 30 still renting a room.

They toxified the Conservative party with everyone who were told that net immigration would be reduced to the tens of thousands, who were told that Britain would have a "march of the makers", who were told that "we're all in this together", who were told that there would be no more Middle Eastern warmongering.
The grant situation is unsustainable and unacceptable. Where the money is going to come from to do something about it I really don't know. The deficit is going up again already.
The combination of tripling student fees and triple locking pensions was obscene.

Not only has it done permanent damage to Britain but it ruined the Conservative image as a party of aspiration.
I agree the optics were terrible. I think that there are 2 problems. Firstly, the increase in fees have been generalised when they should have been restricted to the most expensive courses to deliver. Secondly, the recent increase in the interest rate was iniquitous massively increasing the burden on the young and will greatly impede them getting into the housing market.

Plus the freezing of the level at which repayments begin - that will cost graduates £6,000:

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2015/nov/25/student-loans-george-osborne-criticised-freezing-repayment-threshold

Instead of being the party of aspiration the Conservatives robbed the young.

Ishmael_Z · September 2017

So Timothy and Hill were scapegoats for DD. I will try to feel aggrieved on their behalf, but it will be an uphill struggle.

HYUFD · September 2017

ThomasNashe said:

foxinsoxuk said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Sean_F said:
The reaction to the Manchester bombing was surely sensible and reasonable.
If only those on here* who almost immediately began to speculate on how it was going to reflect really badly on Corbyn & have an influence on the GE campaign had been similarly measured.

*I'm not suggesting you were one of them.
There were some such as my good self, and Nick P that pointed out that such events rarely if ever make a difference to the polls or elections. The murder of Jo Cox didn't affect things either. People generally do not react to such events by changing their party politics.
It was actually Mrs May's response to the London Bridge attacks that made me change my intended Tory vote to a Labour one just a few days before the poll. To be precise, when she made this announcement:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-human-rights-laws-terror-legislation-london-attack-tear-up-election-latest-a7776286.html

I then heard Nick Clegg give a devastating excoriation of her on R4 Today - and I finally made up my mind.

Most of those changes to toughen up anti terror laws had big public support in polling afterwards, you may have disagreed with them but they certainly did not cost the Tories many votes

Allan · September 2017

Essexit said:
The mistake wasn't listening to David Davis about holding an early election - the local elections suggest the Tories really were streets ahead - it was letting Nick Timothy screw up the manifesto and CCHQ screw up the campaign (cf. Mark Wallace).

It turns out Corbyn was a much better campaigner than expected, sure, but a decent Conservative manifesto and campaign would still have got a 50-seat majority.

Agreed. The manifesto had policies that were unconservative backed with a refusal to rule out tax rises in key areas due to Hammond's influence.

PClipp · September 2017

HYUFD said:
They detoxified the Tories only on issues like gay marriage and climate change, on issues like austerity and interest on student loans they retoxified it, certainly with public sector workers and the under 30s.
What they were good at was things like the IHT cut which appealed to the middle aged and swing voters and the base and the triple lock which appealed to pensioners, May ending the latter and pushing the dementia tax hit Tory support with both groups

As usual, you are forgetting the influence of the Lib Dems, which helped Cameron to de-toxify the Tories in certain areas. Thank you Lib Dems!

Where the Tories pushed on with their own hard-line policies, you are of course quite right. They alone are responsible fore their own downfall.

Allan · September 2017

another_richard said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

another_richard said:

DavidL said:
Cameron and Osborne's work in detoxifying the Tory Party was a long from complete. Arguably they should have given it a higher priority but no doubt they thought they had more time.
Cameron and Osborne toxified the Conservative party with everyone who graduates £50,000 in debt and with everyone who reaches 30 still renting a room.
They toxified the Conservative party with everyone who were told that net immigration would be reduced to the tens of thousands, who were told that Britain would have a "march of the makers", who were told that "we're all in this together", who were told that there would be no more Middle Eastern warmongering.
Yet they still won a majority despite all of that, and increasing the Tory share of the vote and seats.
snip
But many of the things Cameron and Osborne did are having negative effects on the Conservatives and Britain generally and these negative effects are likely to be long term.

One of the growing problems are the anti landlord policies of Cameron and Osborne which are a growing problem.

Richard_Tyndall · September 2017

Allan said:

another_richard said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

another_richard said:

DavidL said:
Cameron and Osborne's work in detoxifying the Tory Party was a long from complete. Arguably they should have given it a higher priority but no doubt they thought they had more time.
Cameron and Osborne toxified the Conservative party with everyone who graduates £50,000 in debt and with everyone who reaches 30 still renting a room.
They toxified the Conservative party with everyone who were told that net immigration would be reduced to the tens of thousands, who were told that Britain would have a "march of the makers", who were told that "we're all in this together", who were told that there would be no more Middle Eastern warmongering.
Yet they still won a majority despite all of that, and increasing the Tory share of the vote and seats.
snip
But many of the things Cameron and Osborne did are having negative effects on the Conservatives and Britain generally and these negative effects are likely to be long term.
One of the growing problems are the anti landlord policies of Cameron and Osborne which are a growing problem.

Actually thought that was one of the things they got right.

Ishmael_Z · September 2017

another_richard said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

another_richard said:

DavidL said:
Cameron and Osborne's work in detoxifying the Tory Party was a long from complete. Arguably they should have given it a higher priority but no doubt they thought they had more time.
Cameron and Osborne toxified the Conservative party with everyone who graduates £50,000 in debt and with everyone who reaches 30 still renting a room.

They toxified the Conservative party with everyone who were told that net immigration would be reduced to the tens of thousands, who were told that Britain would have a "march of the makers", who were told that "we're all in this together", who were told that there would be no more Middle Eastern warmongering.
Yet they still won a majority despite all of that, and increasing the Tory share of the vote and seats.
Sometimes luck falls your way.

And Cameron was always a lucky politician.

That's not a criticism of Cameron, there are few things better to have than good luck.

But many of the things Cameron and Osborne did are having negative effects on the Conservatives and Britain generally and these negative effects are likely to be long term.

Agreed, all this comparing of election results is almost entirely beside the point. If someone contended that One Direction were better than the Doors, you wouldn't decide the issue on gross earnings or no 1 records, I hope. The test of politicians is whether they left their country and their party in better condition than they found them. So just look around you.

Richard_Tyndall · September 2017

HYUFD said:

ThomasNashe said:

foxinsoxuk said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Sean_F said:
The reaction to the Manchester bombing was surely sensible and reasonable.
If only those on here* who almost immediately began to speculate on how it was going to reflect really badly on Corbyn & have an influence on the GE campaign had been similarly measured.

*I'm not suggesting you were one of them.
There were some such as my good self, and Nick P that pointed out that such events rarely if ever make a difference to the polls or elections. The murder of Jo Cox didn't affect things either. People generally do not react to such events by changing their party politics.
It was actually Mrs May's response to the London Bridge attacks that made me change my intended Tory vote to a Labour one just a few days before the poll. To be precise, when she made this announcement:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-human-rights-laws-terror-legislation-london-attack-tear-up-election-latest-a7776286.html

I then heard Nick Clegg give a devastating excoriation of her on R4 Today - and I finally made up my mind.
Most of those changes to toughen up anti terror laws had big public support in polling afterwards, you may have disagreed with them but they certainly did not cost the Tories many votes

It didn't change my vote but I thought the response to the Terror attacks including floating the idea of changing the burden of proof were completely unacceptable. Outside of the actual need to get Brexit done and dusted I am certainly not willing to support such an authoritarian minded PM.

PClipp · September 2017

HYUFD said:

Sean_F said:
May, Cameron, and Osborne all have tin ears in differing ways.
Yes, Osborne of course ran the 2010 campaign when the Tories did not win a majority either.
In terms of winning records Boris, with 2 London Mayoral wins and an EU referendum win beats them all

Oh Yes! Boris Johnson! An unmitigated bounder, liar, farseur and cad...... The real face of the modern Conservative Party.... Bring him on!

HYUFD · September 2017

PClipp said:

HYUFD said:
They detoxified the Tories only on issues like gay marriage and climate change, on issues like austerity and interest on student loans they retoxified it, certainly with public sector workers and the under 30s.
What they were good at was things like the IHT cut which appealed to the middle aged and swing voters and the base and the triple lock which appealed to pensioners, May ending the latter and pushing the dementia tax hit Tory support with both groups
As usual, you are forgetting the influence of the Lib Dems, which helped Cameron to de-toxify the Tories in certain areas. Thank you Lib Dems!

Where the Tories pushed on with their own hard-line policies, you are of course quite right. They alone are responsible fore their own downfall.

Not entirely, the IHT cut was opposed by the LDs and popular in government and of course a majority voted for an EU referendum in 2015 and Brexit in 2016 opposed by the LDs

foxinsoxuk · September 2017

PClipp said:

HYUFD said:
They detoxified the Tories only on issues like gay marriage and climate change, on issues like austerity and interest on student loans they retoxified it, certainly with public sector workers and the under 30s.
What they were good at was things like the IHT cut which appealed to the middle aged and swing voters and the base and the triple lock which appealed to pensioners, May ending the latter and pushing the dementia tax hit Tory support with both groups
As usual, you are forgetting the influence of the Lib Dems, which helped Cameron to de-toxify the Tories in certain areas. Thank you Lib Dems!

Where the Tories pushed on with their own hard-line policies, you are of course quite right. They alone are responsible fore their own downfall.

The Coalition was substantially a golden period of good government, tuition fees being an exception.

This was not just because of my own party having a place in the government, but is intrinsic to the nature of coalition. Policies have to be threshed out in cabinet, and cabinet committee in advance, and the PM cannot just appoint yes men. As such, half baked policies are not sprung prematurely. A more consultative style, rather than Strong and Stable, may have led to a better Tory manifesto, and certainly a less presidential style of campaign.

Jezza does this well. He argues his own case, but abides by policies that he personally argued against. Indeed I understand that his shadow cabinet meetings are rather rambling as a result.

HYUFD · September 2017

Richard_Tyndall said:

HYUFD said:

ThomasNashe said:

foxinsoxuk said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Sean_F said:
The reaction to the Manchester bombing was surely sensible and reasonable.
If only those on here* who almost immediately began to speculate on how it was going to reflect really badly on Corbyn & have an influence on the GE campaign had been similarly measured.

*I'm not suggesting you were one of them.
There were some such as my good self, and Nick P that pointed out that such events rarely if ever make a difference to the polls or elections. The murder of Jo Cox didn't affect things either. People generally do not react to such events by changing their party politics.
It was actually Mrs May's response to the London Bridge attacks that made me change my intended Tory vote to a Labour one just a few days before the poll. To be precise, when she made this announcement:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-human-rights-laws-terror-legislation-london-attack-tear-up-election-latest-a7776286.html

I then heard Nick Clegg give a devastating excoriation of her on R4 Today - and I finally made up my mind.
Most of those changes to toughen up anti terror laws had big public support in polling afterwards, you may have disagreed with them but they certainly did not cost the Tories many votes
It didn't change my vote but I thought the response to the Terror attacks including floating the idea of changing the burden of proof were completely unacceptable. Outside of the actual need to get Brexit done and dusted I am certainly not willing to support such an authoritarian minded PM.

Yes but you are a libertarian so that is not that surprising, I did not say the plans were right or wrong just they had the support of most of the public in the polls

Sean_F · September 2017

Ishmael_Z said:

another_richard said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

another_richard said:

DavidL said:
Cameron and Osborne's work in detoxifying the Tory Party was a long from complete. Arguably they should have given it a higher priority but no doubt they thought they had more time.
Cameron and Osborne toxified the Conservative party with everyone who graduates £50,000 in debt and with everyone who reaches 30 still renting a room.

They toxified the Conservative party with everyone who were told that net immigration would be reduced to the tens of thousands, who were told that Britain would have a "march of the makers", who were told that "we're all in this together", who were told that there would be no more Middle Eastern warmongering.
Yet they still won a majority despite all of that, and increasing the Tory share of the vote and seats.
Sometimes luck falls your way.

And Cameron was always a lucky politician.

That's not a criticism of Cameron, there are few things better to have than good luck.

But many of the things Cameron and Osborne did are having negative effects on the Conservatives and Britain generally and these negative effects are likely to be long term.
Agreed, all this comparing of election results is almost entirely beside the point. If someone contended that One Direction were better than the Doors, you wouldn't decide the issue on gross earnings or no 1 records, I hope. The test of politicians is whether they left their country and their party in better condition than they found them. So just look around you.

In terms of overall seat numbers, the results for 2010, 2015, and 2017, are not very different for the Conservatives. That suggests that their support (or lack of it) doesn't have much to do with the leadership.

HYUFD · September 2017

PClipp said:

HYUFD said:

Sean_F said:
May, Cameron, and Osborne all have tin ears in differing ways.
Yes, Osborne of course ran the 2010 campaign when the Tories did not win a majority either.
In terms of winning records Boris, with 2 London Mayoral wins and an EU referendum win beats them all
Oh Yes! Boris Johnson! An unmitigated bounder, liar, farseur and cad...... The real face of the modern Conservative Party.... Bring him on!

Boris is still the public's choice to be next Tory leader in the polls and he does know how to win an election

malcolmg · September 2017

foxinsoxuk said:

Sean_F said:
The reaction to the Manchester bombing was surely sensible and reasonable.
It is the protocol of the times to express sympathies by such means. Obviously it can be fairly superficial, even facile, but it is not something that slows down the serious work.

"Terrible news from XXX. My sympathies are with the victims and their families, and the Emergency services will have all nessecary support from my government"

Pretty generic, but lets people know that the PM is taking an interest.

LOL and then back to Eastenders and leave it to flunkeys

Essexit · September 2017

Anecdotal evidence of the Conservative campaign being bad - my Dad's a member and was repeatedly texted during the campaign to ask if he could go and help in Clacton (he didn't bother). Giles Watling ended up with over 60% of the vote, a 16k majority, and UKIP in 3rd place. They didn't for example ask him to stay in Colchester, where Will Quince's majority was 10k smaller, or even better send him to Ipswich.

malcolmg · September 2017

DavidL said:

another_richard said:

DavidL said:
Cameron and Osborne's work in detoxifying the Tory Party was a long from complete. Arguably they should have given it a higher priority but no doubt they thought they had more time.
Cameron and Osborne toxified the Conservative party with everyone who graduates £50,000 in debt and with everyone who reaches 30 still renting a room.

They toxified the Conservative party with everyone who were told that net immigration would be reduced to the tens of thousands, who were told that Britain would have a "march of the makers", who were told that "we're all in this together", who were told that there would be no more Middle Eastern warmongering.
The grant situation is unsustainable and unacceptable. Where the money is going to come from to do something about it I really don't know. The deficit is going up again already.

Slash university places and the obscene salaries they pay themselves in that sector. Scrap all the courses that lead to nothing other than bar work or burger flipping. Start some real vocational colleges where they teach real skills for all the jobs we import labour for currently.

malcolmg · September 2017

HYUFD said:

PClipp said:

HYUFD said:

Sean_F said:
May, Cameron, and Osborne all have tin ears in differing ways.
Yes, Osborne of course ran the 2010 campaign when the Tories did not win a majority either.
In terms of winning records Boris, with 2 London Mayoral wins and an EU referendum win beats them all
Oh Yes! Boris Johnson! An unmitigated bounder, liar, farseur and cad...... The real face of the modern Conservative Party.... Bring him on!
Boris is still the public's choice to be next Tory leader in the polls and he does know how to win an election

I would love to know what you smoke, it is strong stuff

DavidL · September 2017

malcolmg said:

DavidL said:

another_richard said:

DavidL said:
Cameron and Osborne's work in detoxifying the Tory Party was a long from complete. Arguably they should have given it a higher priority but no doubt they thought they had more time.
Cameron and Osborne toxified the Conservative party with everyone who graduates £50,000 in debt and with everyone who reaches 30 still renting a room.

They toxified the Conservative party with everyone who were told that net immigration would be reduced to the tens of thousands, who were told that Britain would have a "march of the makers", who were told that "we're all in this together", who were told that there would be no more Middle Eastern warmongering.
The grant situation is unsustainable and unacceptable. Where the money is going to come from to do something about it I really don't know. The deficit is going up again already.
Slash university places and the obscene salaries they pay themselves in that sector. Scrap all the courses that lead to nothing other than bar work or burger flipping. Start some real vocational colleges where they teach real skills for all the jobs we import labour for currently.

That would be a pretty good start but all politicians these days like to pretend they can deliver something for nothing. Selling serious cutbacks in the bloated University sector would be a real challenge.

rottenborough · September 2017

https://twitter.com/RozieBreen/status/906811330455392256

Charles · September 2017

DavidL said:

another_richard said:

DavidL said:
Cameron and Osborne's work in detoxifying the Tory Party was a long from complete. Arguably they should have given it a higher priority but no doubt they thought they had more time.
Cameron and Osborne toxified the Conservative party with everyone who graduates £50,000 in debt and with everyone who reaches 30 still renting a room.

They toxified the Conservative party with everyone who were told that net immigration would be reduced to the tens of thousands, who were told that Britain would have a "march of the makers", who were told that "we're all in this together", who were told that there would be no more Middle Eastern warmongering.
The grant situation is unsustainable and unacceptable. Where the money is going to come from to do something about it I really don't know. The deficit is going up again already.

The fundamental problem is the insistence that 50% of people should go to university.

That's an entirely arbitrary number.

The state should support those courses that it thinks add value to society. These will most likely be vocational (eg teacher training, nursing) or STEM, or a small number of purely academic pursuits for the most intelligent.

Beyond that anyone who wants to go to university and is willing to pay for it can.

But I don't understand why the state should pay for someone to spend three years enjoying themselves at the taxpayers expense while doing a degree that will add marginal value either to them or to society as a whole. That just seems to be an inefficient use of resources.

Sean_F · September 2017

Charles said:

DavidL said:

another_richard said:

DavidL said:
Cameron and Osborne's work in detoxifying the Tory Party was a long from complete. Arguably they should have given it a higher priority but no doubt they thought they had more time.
Cameron and Osborne toxified the Conservative party with everyone who graduates £50,000 in debt and with everyone who reaches 30 still renting a room.

They toxified the Conservative party with everyone who were told that net immigration would be reduced to the tens of thousands, who were told that Britain would have a "march of the makers", who were told that "we're all in this together", who were told that there would be no more Middle Eastern warmongering.
The grant situation is unsustainable and unacceptable. Where the money is going to come from to do something about it I really don't know. The deficit is going up again already.
The fundamental problem is the insistence that 50% of people should go to university.

That's an entirely arbitrary number.

The state should support those courses that it thinks add value to society. These will most likely be vocational (eg teacher training, nursing) or STEM, or a small number of purely academic pursuits for the most intelligent.

Beyond that anyone who wants to go to university and is willing to pay for it can.

But I don't understand why the state should pay for someone to spend three years enjoying themselves at the taxpayers expense while doing a degree that will add marginal value either to them or to society as a whole. That just seems to be an inefficient use of resources.

I doubt if more than 20% or so would benefit from going to university.

Big_G_NorthWales · September 2017

malcolmg said:

DavidL said:

another_richard said:

DavidL said:
Cameron and Osborne's work in detoxifying the Tory Party was a long from complete. Arguably they should have given it a higher priority but no doubt they thought they had more time.
Cameron and Osborne toxified the Conservative party with everyone who graduates £50,000 in debt and with everyone who reaches 30 still renting a room.

They toxified the Conservative party with everyone who were told that net immigration would be reduced to the tens of thousands, who were told that Britain would have a "march of the makers", who were told that "we're all in this together", who were told that there would be no more Middle Eastern warmongering.
The grant situation is unsustainable and unacceptable. Where the money is going to come from to do something about it I really don't know. The deficit is going up again already.
Slash university places and the obscene salaries they pay themselves in that sector. Scrap all the courses that lead to nothing other than bar work or burger flipping. Start some real vocational colleges where they teach real skills for all the jobs we import labour for currently.

Afternoon Malc - once again we are on the same page. When I left school in 1960 only about 5% went to University and it was free. Only the most academic clever students followed that course as there were an enormous number of entry level apprentices across most sectors where you worked and attended courses at the same time, usually sponsored by the employer.

Blair's idea that 50% should go to Uni was just nuts and resulted in so many inappropriate degrees leading to dead ends.

We should offer free University courses to Doctors, Teachers, Scientists and Engineers but subject to a commitment to contribute to the UK economy for a minimum of between 5 and 10 years. Beyond that all other courses should be full fee paying by the student

Richard_Tyndall · September 2017

Big_G_NorthWales said:
Afternoon Malc - once again we are on the same page. When I left school in 1960 only about 5% went to University and it was free. Only the most academic clever students followed that course as there were an enormous number of entry level apprentices across most sectors where you worked and attended courses at the same time, usually sponsored by the employer.

Blair's idea that 50% should go to Uni was just nuts and resulted in so many inappropriate degrees leading to dead ends.

We should offer free University courses to Doctors, Teachers, Scientists and Engineers but subject to a commitment to contribute to the UK economy for a minimum of between 5 and 10 years. Beyond that all other courses should be full fee paying by the student

Unfortunately I think it was Major rather than Blair who came up with the idea of massively increasing the numbers going to university. But I do agree with Malc and yourself it was a huge mistake.

Richard_Tyndall · September 2017

malcolmg said:

DavidL said:

another_richard said:

DavidL said:
Cameron and Osborne's work in detoxifying the Tory Party was a long from complete. Arguably they should have given it a higher priority but no doubt they thought they had more time.
Cameron and Osborne toxified the Conservative party with everyone who graduates £50,000 in debt and with everyone who reaches 30 still renting a room.

They toxified the Conservative party with everyone who were told that net immigration would be reduced to the tens of thousands, who were told that Britain would have a "march of the makers", who were told that "we're all in this together", who were told that there would be no more Middle Eastern warmongering.
The grant situation is unsustainable and unacceptable. Where the money is going to come from to do something about it I really don't know. The deficit is going up again already.
Slash university places and the obscene salaries they pay themselves in that sector. Scrap all the courses that lead to nothing other than bar work or burger flipping. Start some real vocational colleges where they teach real skills for all the jobs we import labour for currently.

Spot on.

PClipp · September 2017

HYUFD said:

PClipp said:

HYUFD said:

Sean_F said:
May, Cameron, and Osborne all have tin ears in differing ways.
Yes, Osborne of course ran the 2010 campaign when the Tories did not win a majority either.
In terms of winning records Boris, with 2 London Mayoral wins and an EU referendum win beats them all
Oh Yes! Boris Johnson! An unmitigated bounder, liar, farseur and cad...... The real face of the modern Conservative Party.... Bring him on!
Boris is still the public's choice to be next Tory leader in the polls and he does know how to win an election

Yes, bare-faced lying, brazening it out, making a joke of everything, and running away from all responsibility.....

And giving fat salaries to all his cronies, to do the work for him...

While he goes in for stunts and insulting all our friends.

Just what the country needs.

PAW · September 2017

There must be enough data in the student loans company to give precise figures for the economic value of a degree?

Essexit · September 2017

PClipp said:

HYUFD said:

PClipp said:

HYUFD said:

Sean_F said:
May, Cameron, and Osborne all have tin ears in differing ways.
Yes, Osborne of course ran the 2010 campaign when the Tories did not win a majority either.
In terms of winning records Boris, with 2 London Mayoral wins and an EU referendum win beats them all
Oh Yes! Boris Johnson! An unmitigated bounder, liar, farseur and cad...... The real face of the modern Conservative Party.... Bring him on!
Boris is still the public's choice to be next Tory leader in the polls and he does know how to win an election
Yes, bare-faced lying, brazening it out, making a joke of everything, and running away from all responsibility.....

And giving fat salaries to all his cronies, to do the work for him...

While he goes in for stunts and insulting all our friends.

Just what the country needs.

After Cameron resigned, Boris tried to replace him, then accepted the job of Foreign Secretary. How is that 'running away from all responsibility'?

Yorkcity · September 2017

Big_G_NorthWales said:

malcolmg said:

DavidL said:

another_richard said:

DavidL said:
Cameron and Osborne's work in detoxifying the Tory Party was a long from complete. Arguably they should have given it a higher priority but no doubt they thought they had more time.
Cameron and Osborne toxified the Conservative party with everyone who graduates £50,000 in debt and with everyone who reaches 30 still renting a room.

They toxified the Conservative party with everyone who were told that net immigration would be reduced to the tens of thousands, who were told that Britain would have a "march of the makers", who were told that "we're all in this together", who were told that there would be no more Middle Eastern warmongering.
The grant situation is unsustainable and unacceptable. Where the money is going to come from to do something about it I really don't know. The deficit is going up again already.
Slash university places and the obscene salaries they pay themselves in that sector. Scrap all the courses that lead to nothing other than bar work or burger flipping. Start some real vocational colleges where they teach real skills for all the jobs we import labour for currently.
Afternoon Malc - once again we are on the same page. When I left school in 1960 only about 5% went to University and it was free. Only the most academic clever students followed that course as there were an enormous number of entry level apprentices across most sectors where you worked and attended courses at the same time, usually sponsored by the employer.

Blair's idea that 50% should go to Uni was just nuts and resulted in so many inappropriate degrees leading to dead ends.

We should offer free University courses to Doctors, Teachers, Scientists and Engineers but subject to a commitment to contribute to the UK economy for a minimum of between 5 and 10 years. Beyond that all other courses should be full fee paying by the student

Only 5% going to University was to elitist .Glad The Open University was created in the 1960s to give the chance to many more to expand their abilities.

Alanbrooke · September 2017

Juncker sets out his vision for a new start in the EU

amazingly it involves more Europe

European army on the cards and those pesky east europeans will learn what it means to be in Europe whether they like it or not

https://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/article168495293/Jean-Claude-Junckers-Plaene-fuer-einen-Neustart-der-EU.html

Charles · September 2017

Alanbrooke said:
Juncker sets out his vision for a new start in the EU

amazingly it involves more Europe

European army on the cards and those pesky east europeans will learn what it means to be in Europe whether they like it or not

https://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/article168495293/Jean-Claude-Junckers-Plaene-fuer-einen-Neustart-der-EU.html

I'm fine with a European army if it means they will pull their weight and so fewer of our soldiers have to die for them

Morris_Dancer · September 2017

Mr. Brooke, one army, one EU, one very well-stocked drinks cabinet!

HYUFD · September 2017

PClipp said:

HYUFD said:

PClipp said:

HYUFD said:

Sean_F said:
May, Cameron, and Osborne all have tin ears in differing ways.
Yes, Osborne of course ran the 2010 campaign when the Tories did not win a majority either.
In terms of winning records Boris, with 2 London Mayoral wins and an EU referendum win beats them all
Oh Yes! Boris Johnson! An unmitigated bounder, liar, farseur and cad...... The real face of the modern Conservative Party.... Bring him on!
Boris is still the public's choice to be next Tory leader in the polls and he does know how to win an election
Yes, bare-faced lying, brazening it out, making a joke of everything, and running away from all responsibility.....

And giving fat salaries to all his cronies, to do the work for him...

While he goes in for stunts and insulting all our friends.

Just what the country needs.

Far from 'running away from his responsibilities' he is currently Foreign Secretary and has been Mayor of London which are two rather more responsible positions than Mr Corbyn had held before he became Labour leader

Alanbrooke · September 2017

Charles said:

Alanbrooke said:
Juncker sets out his vision for a new start in the EU

amazingly it involves more Europe

European army on the cards and those pesky east europeans will learn what it means to be in Europe whether they like it or not

https://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/article168495293/Jean-Claude-Junckers-Plaene-fuer-einen-Neustart-der-EU.html
I'm fine with a European army if it means they will pull their weight and so fewer of our soldiers have to die for them

France will be pulling it's weight by cutting defence spending

meanshwile Macron has launched his vision of Europe which is based on telling Mrs Merkel to pay Frances bills

https://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/article168490836/Macron-inszeniert-sich-als-Antipode-zu-Angela-Merkel.html

should be a runaway success

GIN1138 · September 2017

I don't think it was necessarily wrong to have an election.

Obviously the way the Tories fought it and the policies the chose to put in their manifesto were dreadful and that's mainly what did for them (which I doubt David Davis could have foreseen when he was urging Tessa to go for it)

welshowl · September 2017

Alanbrooke said:

Charles said:

Alanbrooke said:
Juncker sets out his vision for a new start in the EU

amazingly it involves more Europe

European army on the cards and those pesky east europeans will learn what it means to be in Europe whether they like it or not

https://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/article168495293/Jean-Claude-Junckers-Plaene-fuer-einen-Neustart-der-EU.html
I'm fine with a European army if it means they will pull their weight and so fewer of our soldiers have to die for them
France will be pulling it's weight by cutting defence spending

meanshwile Macron has launched his vision of Europe which is based on telling Mrs Merkel to pay Frances bills

https://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/article168490836/Macron-inszeniert-sich-als-Antipode-zu-Angela-Merkel.html

should be a runaway success

The comments on the article from the German readership are very negative towards Juncker too.

Richard_Nabavi · September 2017

What in the name of heaven is chicken lasagne?

I think I need to go and lie down.

stevef · September 2017

Ironically May may have done the Tories a favour next time by providing a textbook lesson in how not to win.

TheScreamingEagles · September 2017

Richard_Nabavi said:
What in the name of heaven is chicken lasagne?

I think I need to go and lie down.

Instead of the traditional meat, you have chicken.

It's not as mingin' as I first thought it would be when I tried it.

The boiled potatoes that were served with them is my biggest issue.

Richard_Nabavi · September 2017

TheScreamingEagles said:
Instead of the traditional meat, you have chicken.

It's not as mingin' as I first thought it would be when I tried it.

The boiled potatoes that were served with them is my biggest issue.

I tried to block that aspect of it out of my mind.

ThomasNashe · September 2017

Richard_Nabavi said:

TheScreamingEagles said:
Instead of the traditional meat, you have chicken.

It's not as mingin' as I first thought it would be when I tried it.

The boiled potatoes that were served with them is my biggest issue.
I tried to block that aspect of it out of my mind.

Some years ago I recall stopping off at a pub in north Yorkshire where lasagne with yorkshire pudding was on the menu.

malcolmg · September 2017

Big_G_NorthWales said:

malcolmg said:

DavidL said:

another_richard said:

DavidL said:
Cameron and Osborne's work in detoxifying the Tory Party was a long from complete. Arguably they should have given it a higher priority but no doubt they thought they had more time.
Cameron and Osborne toxified the Conservative party with everyone who graduates £50,000 in debt and with everyone who reaches 30 still renting a room.

They toxified the Conservative party with everyone who were told that net immigration would be reduced to the tens of thousands, who were told that Britain would have a "march of the makers", who were told that "we're all in this together", who were told that there would be no more Middle Eastern warmongering.
The grant situation is unsustainable and unacceptable. Where the money is going to come from to do something about it I really don't know. The deficit is going up again already.
Slash university places and the obscene salaries they pay themselves in that sector. Scrap all the courses that lead to nothing other than bar work or burger flipping. Start some real vocational colleges where they teach real skills for all the jobs we import labour for currently.
Afternoon Malc - once again we are on the same page. When I left school in 1960 only about 5% went to University and it was free. Only the most academic clever students followed that course as there were an enormous number of entry level apprentices across most sectors where you worked and attended courses at the same time, usually sponsored by the employer.

Blair's idea that 50% should go to Uni was just nuts and resulted in so many inappropriate degrees leading to dead ends.

We should offer free University courses to Doctors, Teachers, Scientists and Engineers but subject to a commitment to contribute to the UK economy for a minimum of between 5 and 10 years. Beyond that all other courses should be full fee paying by the student

Hello BigG, exactly and crank up the number of courses for trades and other opportunities that will get people real jobs.

Pong · September 2017

Miami underwater;

https://twitter.com/BrianEntin/status/906920269402558464/video/1

Looks like the Gulf coast, esp Tampa area, is going to suffer the worst of it.

Not nice.

Richard_Tyndall · September 2017

TheScreamingEagles said:

Richard_Nabavi said:
What in the name of heaven is chicken lasagne?

I think I need to go and lie down.
Instead of the traditional meat, you have chicken.

It's not as mingin' as I first thought it would be when I tried it.

The boiled potatoes that were served with them is my biggest issue.

Mind you I wonder if it was a case of the lasagne and the potatoes being amongst many other items. If you are catering for a group of people it is often the case that you will produce a selection of choices to cater for different tastes.

malcolmg · September 2017

Yorkcity said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

malcolmg said:

DavidL said:

another_richard said:

DavidL said:
Cameron and Osborne's work in detoxifying the Tory Party was a long from complete. Arguably they should have given it a higher priority but no doubt they thought they had more time.
Cameron and Osborne toxified the Conservative party with everyone who graduates £50,000 in debt and with everyone who reaches 30 still renting a room.

They toxified the Conservative party with everyone who were told that net immigration would be reduced to the tens of thousands, who were told that Britain would have a "march of the makers", who were told that "we're all in this together", who were told that there would be no more Middle Eastern warmongering.
The grant situation is unsustainable and unacceptable. Where the money is going to come from to do something about it I really don't know. The deficit is going up again already.
Slash university places and the obscene salaries they pay themselves in that sector. Scrap all the courses that lead to nothing other than bar work or burger flipping. Start some real vocational colleges where they teach real skills for all the jobs we import labour for currently.
Afternoon Malc - once again we are on the same page. When I left school in 1960 only about 5% went to University and it was free. Only the most academic clever students followed that course as there were an enormous number of entry level apprentices across most sectors where you worked and attended courses at the same time, usually sponsored by the employer.

Blair's idea that 50% should go to Uni was just nuts and resulted in so many inappropriate degrees leading to dead ends.

We should offer free University courses to Doctors, Teachers, Scientists and Engineers but subject to a commitment to contribute to the UK economy for a minimum of between 5 and 10 years. Beyond that all other courses should be full fee paying by the student
Only 5% going to University was to elitist .Glad The Open University was created in the 1960s to give the chance to many more to expand their abilities.

Yes agree 5% is too low but 50% is a joke,an expensive one as well.

Pong · September 2017

stevef said:
Ironically May may have done the Tories a favour next time by providing a textbook lesson in how not to win.

The tories, especially since 2015, have given the country a textbook lesson in how not to govern. The wealthy rightwing pensioners party put their foot on the accelerator, forcing their social and economic agenda on the country.

The oddest thing is that they seem surprised there's a backlash.

MP_SE2 · September 2017

ThomasNashe said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

TheScreamingEagles said:
Instead of the traditional meat, you have chicken.

It's not as mingin' as I first thought it would be when I tried it.

The boiled potatoes that were served with them is my biggest issue.
I tried to block that aspect of it out of my mind.
Some years ago I recall stopping off at a pub in north Yorkshire where lasagne with yorkshire pudding was on the menu.

I once came across lasagne and baked beans.

Sean_F · September 2017

ThomasNashe said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

TheScreamingEagles said:
Instead of the traditional meat, you have chicken.

It's not as mingin' as I first thought it would be when I tried it.

The boiled potatoes that were served with them is my biggest issue.
I tried to block that aspect of it out of my mind.
Some years ago I recall stopping off at a pub in north Yorkshire where lasagne with yorkshire pudding was on the menu.

That sounds delicious, so long as they were both good (and, I've never had a bad pub meal in Yorkshire).

Richard_Nabavi · September 2017

Pong said:
The tories, especially since 2015, have given the country a textbook lesson in how not to govern.

The wealthy rightwing pensioners party put their foot on the accelerator, forcing their social and economic agenda on the country..

By promising to end the Triple Lock and by proposing to make more wealthy pensioners pay for their care?

Why do you post such arrant nonsense? Have you just got the Labour and Tory manifestos mixed up, perhaps?

foxinsoxuk · September 2017

Sean_F said:

Charles said:

DavidL said:

another_richard said:

DavidL said:
Cameron and Osborne's work in detoxifying the Tory Party was a long from complete. Arguably they should have given it a higher priority but no doubt they thought they had more time.
Cameron and Osborne toxified the Conservative party with everyone who graduates £50,000 in debt and with everyone who reaches 30 still renting a room.

They toxified the Conservative party with everyone who were told that net immigration would be reduced to the tens of thousands, who were told that Britain would have a "march of the makers", who were told that "we're all in this together", who were told that there would be no more Middle Eastern warmongering.
The grant situation is unsustainable and unacceptable. Where the money is going to come from to do something about it I really don't know. The deficit is going up again already.
The fundamental problem is the insistence that 50% of people should go to university.

That's an entirely arbitrary number.

The state should support those courses that it thinks add value to society. These will most likely be vocational (eg teacher training, nursing) or STEM, or a small number of purely academic pursuits for the most intelligent.

Beyond that anyone who wants to go to university and is willing to pay for it can.

But I don't understand why the state should pay for someone to spend three years enjoying themselves at the taxpayers expense while doing a degree that will add marginal value either to them or to society as a whole. That just seems to be an inefficient use of resources.
I doubt if more than 20% or so would benefit from going to university.

20% would put us substantially lower than our economic competitors, in the same ballpark as developing countries such as Mexico. Notably the only EU country in that range is Italy, not particularly a country we should emulate economically.

What we really need is for those degree courses to be well taught, contain useful content, and for the country to produce graduate level jobs. If the Swiss and South Koreans and others can do this, then why cannot we? Are Britons thicker than other nations?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tertiary_education_attainment

Sunil_Prasannan · September 2017

Such a disastrous election campaign!

https://twitter.com/Sunil_P2/status/876894066478329857

Yorkcity · September 2017

Richard_Nabavi said:

Pong said:
The tories, especially since 2015, have given the country a textbook lesson in how not to govern.

The wealthy rightwing pensioners party put their foot on the accelerator, forcing their social and economic agenda on the country..
By promising to end the Triple Lock and by proposing to make more wealthy pensioners pay for their care?

Why do you post such arrant nonsense? Have you just got the Labour and Tory manifestos mixed up, perhaps?

Richard do you still think they will proceed with ending the triple lock and making more wealthy pensioners pay for their care ? As May seems to be rowing back on student fees, public sector pay , and reducing the deficit .In essence a bit of Corbyn light.

Pong · September 2017

Richard_Nabavi said:

Pong said:
The tories, especially since 2015, have given the country a textbook lesson in how not to govern.

The wealthy rightwing pensioners party put their foot on the accelerator, forcing their social and economic agenda on the country..
By promising to end the Triple Lock and by proposing to make more wealthy pensioners pay for their care?

I gave TM & the excellent Nick Timothy and Fiona Hill credit for that, at the time.

It's not happening, though, is it?

Sunil_Prasannan · September 2017

Richard_Nabavi said:
What in the name of heaven is chicken lasagne?

I think I need to go and lie down.

Vegetable lasagne is alright

megalomaniacs4u · September 2017

Sunil_Prasannan said:
Such a disastrous election campaign!

https://twitter.com/Sunil_P2/status/876894066478329857

So the LibDem bar chart team defected to labour?

Sunil_Prasannan · September 2017

HYUFD said:

PClipp said:

HYUFD said:

Sean_F said:
May, Cameron, and Osborne all have tin ears in differing ways.
Yes, Osborne of course ran the 2010 campaign when the Tories did not win a majority either.
In terms of winning records Boris, with 2 London Mayoral wins and an EU referendum win beats them all
Oh Yes! Boris Johnson! An unmitigated bounder, liar, farseur and cad...... The real face of the modern Conservative Party.... Bring him on!
Boris is still the public's choice to be next Tory leader in the polls and he does know how to win an election

He won Lefty London twice, in 2008 and 2012. He was the reason my hand hovered over the Tory box for the very first time in 2008

TheScreamingEagles · September 2017

Pong said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

Pong said:
The tories, especially since 2015, have given the country a textbook lesson in how not to govern.

The wealthy rightwing pensioners party put their foot on the accelerator, forcing their social and economic agenda on the country..
By promising to end the Triple Lock and by proposing to make more wealthy pensioners pay for their care?
I gave TM & the excellent Nick Timothy and Fiona Hill credit for that, at the time.

It's not happening, though, is it?

It's not happening because Labour promised to protect the triple lock.

Big_G_NorthWales · September 2017

malcolmg said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

malcolmg said:

DavidL said:

another_richard said:

DavidL said:
Cameron and Osborne's work in detoxifying the Tory Party was a long from complete. Arguably they should have given it a higher priority but no doubt they thought they had more time.
Cameron and Osborne toxified the Conservative party with everyone who graduates £50,000 in debt and with everyone who reaches 30 still renting a room.

They toxified the Conservative party with everyone who were told that net immigration would be reduced to the tens of thousands, who were told that Britain would have a "march of the makers", who were told that "we're all in this together", who were told that there would be no more Middle Eastern warmongering.
The grant situation is unsustainable and unacceptable. Where the money is going to come from to do something about it I really don't know. The deficit is going up again already.
Slash university places and the obscene salaries they pay themselves in that sector. Scrap all the courses that lead to nothing other than bar work or burger flipping. Start some real vocational colleges where they teach real skills for all the jobs we import labour for currently.
Afternoon Malc - once again we are on the same page. When I left school in 1960 only about 5% went to University and it was free. Only the most academic clever students followed that course as there were an enormous number of entry level apprentices across most sectors where you worked and attended courses at the same time, usually sponsored by the employer.

Blair's idea that 50% should go to Uni was just nuts and resulted in so many inappropriate degrees leading to dead ends.

We should offer free University courses to Doctors, Teachers, Scientists and Engineers but subject to a commitment to contribute to the UK economy for a minimum of between 5 and 10 years. Beyond that all other courses should be full fee paying by the student
Hello BigG, exactly and crank up the number of courses for trades and other opportunities that will get people real jobs.

In 1961 I joined the Eagle Star Insurance Company in Edinburgh and while working for them they also sponsored me for the ACII qualification. This was one of thousands of schemes across the UK and backed up, as has already been said, by the Open University

I cannot understand why most decree courses cannot be condensed to two years on a full time basis, ( with the exception of medical). Cut out long holidays and partying and concentrate on the things that matter

Yorkcity · September 2017

Sunil_Prasannan said:
Such a disastrous election campaign!

https://twitter.com/Sunil_P2/status/876894066478329857

Do you honestly think it was good ? When they had 20% poll leads , many on here me included saying it was a forgone conclusion.many predictions over 100 majority.Why not give us your insight rather inane bar charts.

Pong · September 2017

TheScreamingEagles said:

Pong said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

Pong said:
The tories, especially since 2015, have given the country a textbook lesson in how not to govern.

The wealthy rightwing pensioners party put their foot on the accelerator, forcing their social and economic agenda on the country..
By promising to end the Triple Lock and by proposing to make more wealthy pensioners pay for their care?
I gave TM & the excellent Nick Timothy and Fiona Hill credit for that, at the time.

It's not happening, though, is it?
It's not happening because Labour promised to protect the triple lock.

Which is completely viable, in conjunction with a LVT and other fair wealth taxes.

TheScreamingEagles · September 2017

This makes boiled potatoes with lasagne look appealing.

Thief burst into McDonald's brandishing knife in one hand and PENIS in other.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/thief-burst-mcdonalds-brandishing-knife-11143165

Big_G_NorthWales · September 2017

Pong said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Pong said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

Pong said:
The tories, especially since 2015, have given the country a textbook lesson in how not to govern.

The wealthy rightwing pensioners party put their foot on the accelerator, forcing their social and economic agenda on the country..
By promising to end the Triple Lock and by proposing to make more wealthy pensioners pay for their care?
I gave TM & the excellent Nick Timothy and Fiona Hill credit for that, at the time.

It's not happening, though, is it?
It's not happening because Labour promised to protect the triple lock.
Which is completely viable, in conjunction with a LVT and other fair wealth taxes.

Explain how LVT will impact on ordinary home owners and how you define fair wealth taxes

TheScreamingEagles · September 2017

Pong said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Pong said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

Pong said:
The tories, especially since 2015, have given the country a textbook lesson in how not to govern.

The wealthy rightwing pensioners party put their foot on the accelerator, forcing their social and economic agenda on the country..
By promising to end the Triple Lock and by proposing to make more wealthy pensioners pay for their care?
I gave TM & the excellent Nick Timothy and Fiona Hill credit for that, at the time.

It's not happening, though, is it?
It's not happening because Labour promised to protect the triple lock.
Which is completely viable, in conjunction with a LVT and other fair wealth taxes.

Oh Lord, you really believe that?

Sunil_Prasannan · September 2017

Yorkcity said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:
Such a disastrous election campaign!

https://twitter.com/Sunil_P2/status/876894066478329857
Do you honestly think it was good ? When they had 20% poll leads , many on here me included saying it was a forgone conclusion.many predictions over 100 majority.Why not give us your insight rather inane bar charts.

You should rejoice that Comrade Corbyn won 55 more seats than Terrible Tessie!
You should celebrate Jezza winning 2% more of the popular vote!

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