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Absolutely fascinating insight by @TomMcTague & @TimRoss_1 on Tory election campaign. Definitely buying their book. https://t.co/myXGOEJId3 pic.twitter.com/5FBcFBnrPH
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Cameron and Osborne's work in detoxifying the Tory Party was a long from complete. Arguably they should have given it a higher priority but no doubt they thought they had more time.0
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'I don't do that,' the Prime Minister said, grimacing.williamglenn said:0 -
The reaction to the Manchester bombing was surely sensible and reasonable.0
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' my own view that David David would make a reasonably competent head of a Wolverhampton Social Security office, and that’s about it. '
David Davis opposed Osborne's tripling of tuition fees.
If he had been listened to the Conservatives wouldn't have crippled themselves among young voters and their parents.0 -
If you are on the dole in Wolverhampton, please don't depend on your Income Support being paid on time.0
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Good afternoon, everyone.
Mr. F, indeed. The only criticism I recall hearing was Peston's idiotic suggestion May was trying to both unify the country and blame Muslims (or words to that effect).0 -
Although D Davis is proving to be more of an ass as each day passes, one does have to raise at least one eyebrow at the thought of him uttering the leaden line ‘No-one is closer to Theresa May than I and I, Philip Hammond and Theresa May really run the country.’ Play me the tape and I'll believe it.0
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How long before the queen tweeted condolences?Sean_F said:The reaction to the Manchester bombing was surely sensible and reasonable.
Meanwhile:
http://hastheresamayresignedyet.com
I think I'll wait for the book to appear in the remaindered bin...0 -
It is the protocol of the times to express sympathies by such means. Obviously it can be fairly superficial, even facile, but it is not something that slows down the serious work.Sean_F said:The reaction to the Manchester bombing was surely sensible and reasonable.
"Terrible news from XXX. My sympathies are with the victims and their families, and the Emergency services will have all nessecary support from my government"
Pretty generic, but lets people know that the PM is taking an interest.0 -
I can't see the harm that a general 'Horrified to hear of the events in Manchester. I am monitoring closely and working with emergency services' or similar would have done. In the age of Twitter, when politicians take seconds to support/attack during political events, I think the public expects leaders to acknowledge major events quickly. She didn't need to give her last word within minutes, but a first word would have been advisable.Sean_F said:The reaction to the Manchester bombing was surely sensible and reasonable.
Though I agree it wasn't the end of the world either way.0 -
Cameron and Osborne toxified the Conservative party with everyone who graduates £50,000 in debt and with everyone who reaches 30 still renting a room.DavidL said:Cameron and Osborne's work in detoxifying the Tory Party was a long from complete. Arguably they should have given it a higher priority but no doubt they thought they had more time.
They toxified the Conservative party with everyone who were told that net immigration would be reduced to the tens of thousands, who were told that Britain would have a "march of the makers", who were told that "we're all in this together", who were told that there would be no more Middle Eastern warmongering.
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They detoxified the Tories only on issues like gay marriage and climate change, on issues like austerity and interest on student loans they retoxified it, certainly with public sector workers and the under 30s.DavidL said:Cameron and Osborne's work in detoxifying the Tory Party was a long from complete. Arguably they should have given it a higher priority but no doubt they thought they had more time.
What they were good at was things like the IHT cut which appealed to the middle aged and swing voters and the base and the triple lock which appealed to pensioners, May ending the latter and pushing the dementia tax hit Tory support with both groups0 -
I find it rather refreshing that someone in authority would take time to establish the facts, before commenting.foxinsoxuk said:
It is the protocol of the times to express sympathies by such means. Obviously it can be fairly superficial, even facile, but it is not something that slows down the serious work.Sean_F said:The reaction to the Manchester bombing was surely sensible and reasonable.
"Terrible news from XXX. My sympathies are with the victims and their families, and the Emergency services will have all nessecary support from my government"
Pretty generic, but lets people know that the PM is taking an interest.0 -
Not to mention a deficit which would be eliminated within one Parliament.another_richard said:
Cameron and Osborne toxified the Conservative party with everyone who graduates £50,000 in debt and with everyone who reaches 30 still renting a room.DavidL said:Cameron and Osborne's work in detoxifying the Tory Party was a long from complete. Arguably they should have given it a higher priority but no doubt they thought they had more time.
They toxified the Conservative party with everyone who were told that net immigration would be reduced to the tens of thousands, who were told that Britain would have a "march of the makers", who were told that "we're all in this together", who were told that there would be no more Middle Eastern warmongering.0 -
May, Cameron, and Osborne all have tin ears in differing ways.HYUFD said:
They detoxified the Tories only on issues like gay marriage and climate change, on issues like austerity and interest on student loans they retoxified it, certainly with public sector workers and the under 30s.DavidL said:Cameron and Osborne's work in detoxifying the Tory Party was a long from complete. Arguably they should have given it a higher priority but no doubt they thought they had more time.
What they were good at was things like the IHT cut which appealed to the middle aged and swing voters and the base and the triple lock which appealed to pensioners, May ending the latter and pushing the dementia tax hit Tory support with both groups0 -
Yes, Osborne of course ran the 2010 campaign when the Tories did not win a majority either.Sean_F said:
May, Cameron, and Osborne all have tin ears in differing ways.HYUFD said:
They detoxified the Tories only on issues like gay marriage and climate change, on issues like austerity and interest on student loans they retoxified it, certainly with public sector workers and the under 30s.DavidL said:Cameron and Osborne's work in detoxifying the Tory Party was a long from complete. Arguably they should have given it a higher priority but no doubt they thought they had more time.
What they were good at was things like the IHT cut which appealed to the middle aged and swing voters and the base and the triple lock which appealed to pensioners, May ending the latter and pushing the dementia tax hit Tory support with both groups
In terms of winning records Boris, with 2 London Mayoral wins and an EU referendum win beats them all
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The grant situation is unsustainable and unacceptable. Where the money is going to come from to do something about it I really don't know. The deficit is going up again already.another_richard said:
Cameron and Osborne toxified the Conservative party with everyone who graduates £50,000 in debt and with everyone who reaches 30 still renting a room.DavidL said:Cameron and Osborne's work in detoxifying the Tory Party was a long from complete. Arguably they should have given it a higher priority but no doubt they thought they had more time.
They toxified the Conservative party with everyone who were told that net immigration would be reduced to the tens of thousands, who were told that Britain would have a "march of the makers", who were told that "we're all in this together", who were told that there would be no more Middle Eastern warmongering.0 -
"Establishing the facts" can be done pretty quickly in incidents like Manchester and London Bridge in that it's quickly obvious to the blue light commanders on the ground it was a deliberate attack rather than a gas explosion or a man suffering a heart attack at the wheel and ploughing into a group of pedestrians.Sean_F said:
I find it rather refreshing that someone in authority would take time to establish the facts, before commenting.
In any case, those there are quickly on FB and Twitter if for no other reason than to confirm their own safety and/or check the safety of others.
Whether you like it or not, there are modern rapid communication media out there which are widely used and relied on by large sections of the population. Look at how we are seeing Hurricane Irma in real time battering Florida which wouldn't have happened with Camille forty plus years ago.
That immediacy of information predicates an immediacy of response from the authorities albeit that response may simply be platitudes at an early stage.
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Indeed.dixiedean said:
Not to mention a deficit which would be eliminated within one Parliament.another_richard said:
Cameron and Osborne toxified the Conservative party with everyone who graduates £50,000 in debt and with everyone who reaches 30 still renting a room.DavidL said:Cameron and Osborne's work in detoxifying the Tory Party was a long from complete. Arguably they should have given it a higher priority but no doubt they thought they had more time.
They toxified the Conservative party with everyone who were told that net immigration would be reduced to the tens of thousands, who were told that Britain would have a "march of the makers", who were told that "we're all in this together", who were told that there would be no more Middle Eastern warmongering.
Yet there was always money for the pet projects of Cameron and Osborne not to mention the vote buying triple lock pensions with all the long term damage that is bringing.
I really don't blame anyone who has suffered from cuts or pay stagnation since 2010 for voting for change.0 -
It failed the "Diana test" - emote first, think second.Sean_F said:
I find it rather refreshing that someone in authority would take time to establish the facts, before commenting.foxinsoxuk said:
It is the protocol of the times to express sympathies by such means. Obviously it can be fairly superficial, even facile, but it is not something that slows down the serious work.Sean_F said:The reaction to the Manchester bombing was surely sensible and reasonable.
"Terrible news from XXX. My sympathies are with the victims and their families, and the Emergency services will have all nessecary support from my government"
Pretty generic, but lets people know that the PM is taking an interest.0 -
If only those on here* who almost immediately began to speculate on how it was going to reflect really badly on Corbyn & have an influence on the GE campaign had been similarly measured.Sean_F said:The reaction to the Manchester bombing was surely sensible and reasonable.
*I'm not suggesting you were one of them.0 -
The mistake wasn't listening to David Davis about holding an early election - the local elections suggest the Tories really were streets ahead - it was letting Nick Timothy screw up the manifesto and CCHQ screw up the campaign (cf. Mark Wallace).
It turns out Corbyn was a much better campaigner than expected, sure, but a decent Conservative manifesto and campaign would still have got a 50-seat majority.0 -
The combination of tripling student fees and triple locking pensions was obscene.DavidL said:
The grant situation is unsustainable and unacceptable. Where the money is going to come from to do something about it I really don't know. The deficit is going up again already.another_richard said:
Cameron and Osborne toxified the Conservative party with everyone who graduates £50,000 in debt and with everyone who reaches 30 still renting a room.DavidL said:Cameron and Osborne's work in detoxifying the Tory Party was a long from complete. Arguably they should have given it a higher priority but no doubt they thought they had more time.
They toxified the Conservative party with everyone who were told that net immigration would be reduced to the tens of thousands, who were told that Britain would have a "march of the makers", who were told that "we're all in this together", who were told that there would be no more Middle Eastern warmongering.
Not only has it done permanent damage to Britain but it ruined the Conservative image as a party of aspiration.0 -
People were prepared to endure, and indeed actively embrace the Long term Economic Plan, when they thought it would be effective and fairly applied. The constant moving of the goal posts undermined its effectiveness, the examples you provide its fairness.another_richard said:
Indeed.dixiedean said:
Not to mention a deficit which would be eliminated within one Parliament.another_richard said:
Cameron and Osborne toxified the Conservative party with everyone who graduates £50,000 in debt and with everyone who reaches 30 still renting a room.DavidL said:Cameron and Osborne's work in detoxifying the Tory Party was a long from complete. Arguably they should have given it a higher priority but no doubt they thought they had more time.
They toxified the Conservative party with everyone who were told that net immigration would be reduced to the tens of thousands, who were told that Britain would have a "march of the makers", who were told that "we're all in this together", who were told that there would be no more Middle Eastern warmongering.
Yet there was always money for the pet projects of Cameron and Osborne not to mention the vote buying triple lock pensions with all the long term damage that is bringing.
I really don't blame anyone who has suffered from cuts or pay stagnation since 2010 for voting for change.0 -
I think the evidence of both of these constituencies (youngsters and nationalists) is that previously poor voting turnout groups will turnout, if you give them a strong grievance.another_richard said:
Cameron and Osborne toxified the Conservative party with everyone who graduates £50,000 in debt and with everyone who reaches 30 still renting a room.DavidL said:Cameron and Osborne's work in detoxifying the Tory Party was a long from complete. Arguably they should have given it a higher priority but no doubt they thought they had more time.
They toxified the Conservative party with everyone who were told that net immigration would be reduced to the tens of thousands, who were told that Britain would have a "march of the makers", who were told that "we're all in this together", who were told that there would be no more Middle Eastern warmongering.
Mrs May's Tories are rather adept at giving people grievences, so ignoring one sector ceases to be electorally astute. She is now antagonising both the young, and also Remainers. It seems that every lash becomes a backlash rather more quickly than historically.0 -
There were some such as my good self, and Nick P that pointed out that such events rarely if ever make a difference to the polls or elections. The murder of Jo Cox didn't affect things either. People generally do not react to such events by changing their party politics.Theuniondivvie said:
If only those on here* who almost immediately began to speculate on how it was going to reflect really badly on Corbyn & have an influence on the GE campaign had been similarly measured.Sean_F said:The reaction to the Manchester bombing was surely sensible and reasonable.
*I'm not suggesting you were one of them.0 -
Yet they still won a majority despite all of that, and increasing the Tory share of the vote and seats.another_richard said:
Cameron and Osborne toxified the Conservative party with everyone who graduates £50,000 in debt and with everyone who reaches 30 still renting a room.DavidL said:Cameron and Osborne's work in detoxifying the Tory Party was a long from complete. Arguably they should have given it a higher priority but no doubt they thought they had more time.
They toxified the Conservative party with everyone who were told that net immigration would be reduced to the tens of thousands, who were told that Britain would have a "march of the makers", who were told that "we're all in this together", who were told that there would be no more Middle Eastern warmongering.0 -
I agree the optics were terrible. I think that there are 2 problems. Firstly, the increase in fees have been generalised when they should have been restricted to the most expensive courses to deliver. Secondly, the recent increase in the interest rate was iniquitous massively increasing the burden on the young and will greatly impede them getting into the housing market.another_richard said:
The combination of tripling student fees and triple locking pensions was obscene.DavidL said:
The grant situation is unsustainable and unacceptable. Where the money is going to come from to do something about it I really don't know. The deficit is going up again already.another_richard said:
Cameron and Osborne toxified the Conservative party with everyone who graduates £50,000 in debt and with everyone who reaches 30 still renting a room.DavidL said:Cameron and Osborne's work in detoxifying the Tory Party was a long from complete. Arguably they should have given it a higher priority but no doubt they thought they had more time.
They toxified the Conservative party with everyone who were told that net immigration would be reduced to the tens of thousands, who were told that Britain would have a "march of the makers", who were told that "we're all in this together", who were told that there would be no more Middle Eastern warmongering.
Not only has it done permanent damage to Britain but it ruined the Conservative image as a party of aspiration.0 -
True though the Tories actually rose 4% on the local elections, it was just the LDs were down 11% and most of that went to LabourEssexit said:The mistake wasn't listening to David Davis about holding an early election - the local elections suggest the Tories really were streets ahead - it was letting Nick Timothy screw up the manifesto and CCHQ screw up the campaign (cf. Mark Wallace).
It turns out Corbyn was a much better campaigner than expected, sure, but a decent Conservative manifesto and campaign would still have got a 50-seat majority.0 -
There's no long-term damage. Try living on the state pension. The 'old' state pension officially was too low to live on, hence Pension Credit. This was/is paid after means testing, a.k.a a disguised and hence arbitrary higher marginal tax rate.another_richard said:
Indeed.dixiedean said:
Not to mention a deficit which would be eliminated within one Parliament.another_richard said:
Cameron and Osborne toxified the Conservative party with everyone who graduates £50,000 in debt and with everyone who reaches 30 still renting a room.DavidL said:Cameron and Osborne's work in detoxifying the Tory Party was a long from complete. Arguably they should have given it a higher priority but no doubt they thought they had more time.
They toxified the Conservative party with everyone who were told that net immigration would be reduced to the tens of thousands, who were told that Britain would have a "march of the makers", who were told that "we're all in this together", who were told that there would be no more Middle Eastern warmongering.
Yet there was always money for the pet projects of Cameron and Osborne not to mention the vote buying triple lock pensions with all the long term damage that is bringing.
I really don't blame anyone who has suffered from cuts or pay stagnation since 2010 for voting for change.
Even countries hardly known for a generous welfare state - Ireland and the US - pay pensions which are more likely to be enough for a couple or single person to live on. The UK state pension takes a derisory 5% of GDP.
The UK spends £50 bn per year on tax relief on private pensions - part of the Thatcherite legacy. That sum by itself, if added to pension payments instead, would give an adequate state pension and end the argument for good.0 -
It was actually Mrs May's response to the London Bridge attacks that made me change my intended Tory vote to a Labour one just a few days before the poll. To be precise, when she made this announcement:foxinsoxuk said:
There were some such as my good self, and Nick P that pointed out that such events rarely if ever make a difference to the polls or elections. The murder of Jo Cox didn't affect things either. People generally do not react to such events by changing their party politics.Theuniondivvie said:
If only those on here* who almost immediately began to speculate on how it was going to reflect really badly on Corbyn & have an influence on the GE campaign had been similarly measured.Sean_F said:The reaction to the Manchester bombing was surely sensible and reasonable.
*I'm not suggesting you were one of them.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-human-rights-laws-terror-legislation-london-attack-tear-up-election-latest-a7776286.html
I then heard Nick Clegg give a devastating excoriation of her on R4 Today - and I finally made up my mind.
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Sometimes luck falls your way.TheScreamingEagles said:
Yet they still won a majority despite all of that, and increasing the Tory share of the vote and seats.another_richard said:
Cameron and Osborne toxified the Conservative party with everyone who graduates £50,000 in debt and with everyone who reaches 30 still renting a room.DavidL said:Cameron and Osborne's work in detoxifying the Tory Party was a long from complete. Arguably they should have given it a higher priority but no doubt they thought they had more time.
They toxified the Conservative party with everyone who were told that net immigration would be reduced to the tens of thousands, who were told that Britain would have a "march of the makers", who were told that "we're all in this together", who were told that there would be no more Middle Eastern warmongering.
And Cameron was always a lucky politician.
That's not a criticism of Cameron, there are few things better to have than good luck.
But many of the things Cameron and Osborne did are having negative effects on the Conservatives and Britain generally and these negative effects are likely to be long term.
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Similarly the widely viewed video of a Police Sergeant giving May a hard time over police cuts made me think that (if any effect) the swing might be against the government. That speech where she was rude to the Police Federation came back to bite her.ThomasNashe said:
It was actually Mrs May's response to the London Bridge attacks that made me change my intended Tory vote to a Labour one just a few days before the poll. To be precise, when she made this announcement:foxinsoxuk said:
There were some such as my good self, and Nick P that pointed out that such events rarely if ever make a difference to the polls or elections. The murder of Jo Cox didn't affect things either. People generally do not react to such events by changing their party politics.Theuniondivvie said:
If only those on here* who almost immediately began to speculate on how it was going to reflect really badly on Corbyn & have an influence on the GE campaign had been similarly measured.Sean_F said:The reaction to the Manchester bombing was surely sensible and reasonable.
*I'm not suggesting you were one of them.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-human-rights-laws-terror-legislation-london-attack-tear-up-election-latest-a7776286.html
I then heard Nick Clegg give a devastating excoriation of her on R4 Today - and I finally made up my mind.
https://skwawkbox.org/2017/06/04/huge-senior-police-officer-says-may-lying-re-police-nossecurity-ge17-kirkham/0 -
I tend to agree, it was more the lack of class that struck me.foxinsoxuk said:
There were some such as my good self, and Nick P that pointed out that such events rarely if ever make a difference to the polls or elections. The murder of Jo Cox didn't affect things either. People generally do not react to such events by changing their party politics.Theuniondivvie said:
If only those on here* who almost immediately began to speculate on how it was going to reflect really badly on Corbyn & have an influence on the GE campaign had been similarly measured.Sean_F said:The reaction to the Manchester bombing was surely sensible and reasonable.
*I'm not suggesting you were one of them.0 -
Plus the freezing of the level at which repayments begin - that will cost graduates £6,000:DavidL said:
I agree the optics were terrible. I think that there are 2 problems. Firstly, the increase in fees have been generalised when they should have been restricted to the most expensive courses to deliver. Secondly, the recent increase in the interest rate was iniquitous massively increasing the burden on the young and will greatly impede them getting into the housing market.another_richard said:
The combination of tripling student fees and triple locking pensions was obscene.DavidL said:
The grant situation is unsustainable and unacceptable. Where the money is going to come from to do something about it I really don't know. The deficit is going up again already.another_richard said:
Cameron and Osborne toxified the Conservative party with everyone who graduates £50,000 in debt and with everyone who reaches 30 still renting a room.DavidL said:Cameron and Osborne's work in detoxifying the Tory Party was a long from complete. Arguably they should have given it a higher priority but no doubt they thought they had more time.
They toxified the Conservative party with everyone who were told that net immigration would be reduced to the tens of thousands, who were told that Britain would have a "march of the makers", who were told that "we're all in this together", who were told that there would be no more Middle Eastern warmongering.
Not only has it done permanent damage to Britain but it ruined the Conservative image as a party of aspiration.
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2015/nov/25/student-loans-george-osborne-criticised-freezing-repayment-threshold
Instead of being the party of aspiration the Conservatives robbed the young.0 -
So Timothy and Hill were scapegoats for DD. I will try to feel aggrieved on their behalf, but it will be an uphill struggle.0
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Most of those changes to toughen up anti terror laws had big public support in polling afterwards, you may have disagreed with them but they certainly did not cost the Tories many votesThomasNashe said:
It was actually Mrs May's response to the London Bridge attacks that made me change my intended Tory vote to a Labour one just a few days before the poll. To be precise, when she made this announcement:foxinsoxuk said:
There were some such as my good self, and Nick P that pointed out that such events rarely if ever make a difference to the polls or elections. The murder of Jo Cox didn't affect things either. People generally do not react to such events by changing their party politics.Theuniondivvie said:
If only those on here* who almost immediately began to speculate on how it was going to reflect really badly on Corbyn & have an influence on the GE campaign had been similarly measured.Sean_F said:The reaction to the Manchester bombing was surely sensible and reasonable.
*I'm not suggesting you were one of them.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-human-rights-laws-terror-legislation-london-attack-tear-up-election-latest-a7776286.html
I then heard Nick Clegg give a devastating excoriation of her on R4 Today - and I finally made up my mind.0 -
Agreed. The manifesto had policies that were unconservative backed with a refusal to rule out tax rises in key areas due to Hammond's influence.Essexit said:The mistake wasn't listening to David Davis about holding an early election - the local elections suggest the Tories really were streets ahead - it was letting Nick Timothy screw up the manifesto and CCHQ screw up the campaign (cf. Mark Wallace).
It turns out Corbyn was a much better campaigner than expected, sure, but a decent Conservative manifesto and campaign would still have got a 50-seat majority.
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As usual, you are forgetting the influence of the Lib Dems, which helped Cameron to de-toxify the Tories in certain areas. Thank you Lib Dems!HYUFD said:They detoxified the Tories only on issues like gay marriage and climate change, on issues like austerity and interest on student loans they retoxified it, certainly with public sector workers and the under 30s.
What they were good at was things like the IHT cut which appealed to the middle aged and swing voters and the base and the triple lock which appealed to pensioners, May ending the latter and pushing the dementia tax hit Tory support with both groups
Where the Tories pushed on with their own hard-line policies, you are of course quite right. They alone are responsible fore their own downfall.0 -
One of the growing problems are the anti landlord policies of Cameron and Osborne which are a growing problem.another_richard said:
snipTheScreamingEagles said:
Yet they still won a majority despite all of that, and increasing the Tory share of the vote and seats.another_richard said:
Cameron and Osborne toxified the Conservative party with everyone who graduates £50,000 in debt and with everyone who reaches 30 still renting a room.DavidL said:Cameron and Osborne's work in detoxifying the Tory Party was a long from complete. Arguably they should have given it a higher priority but no doubt they thought they had more time.
They toxified the Conservative party with everyone who were told that net immigration would be reduced to the tens of thousands, who were told that Britain would have a "march of the makers", who were told that "we're all in this together", who were told that there would be no more Middle Eastern warmongering.
But many of the things Cameron and Osborne did are having negative effects on the Conservatives and Britain generally and these negative effects are likely to be long term.
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Actually thought that was one of the things they got right.Allan said:
One of the growing problems are the anti landlord policies of Cameron and Osborne which are a growing problem.another_richard said:
snipTheScreamingEagles said:
Yet they still won a majority despite all of that, and increasing the Tory share of the vote and seats.another_richard said:
Cameron and Osborne toxified the Conservative party with everyone who graduates £50,000 in debt and with everyone who reaches 30 still renting a room.DavidL said:Cameron and Osborne's work in detoxifying the Tory Party was a long from complete. Arguably they should have given it a higher priority but no doubt they thought they had more time.
They toxified the Conservative party with everyone who were told that net immigration would be reduced to the tens of thousands, who were told that Britain would have a "march of the makers", who were told that "we're all in this together", who were told that there would be no more Middle Eastern warmongering.
But many of the things Cameron and Osborne did are having negative effects on the Conservatives and Britain generally and these negative effects are likely to be long term.0 -
Agreed, all this comparing of election results is almost entirely beside the point. If someone contended that One Direction were better than the Doors, you wouldn't decide the issue on gross earnings or no 1 records, I hope. The test of politicians is whether they left their country and their party in better condition than they found them. So just look around you.another_richard said:
Sometimes luck falls your way.TheScreamingEagles said:
Yet they still won a majority despite all of that, and increasing the Tory share of the vote and seats.another_richard said:
Cameron and Osborne toxified the Conservative party with everyone who graduates £50,000 in debt and with everyone who reaches 30 still renting a room.DavidL said:Cameron and Osborne's work in detoxifying the Tory Party was a long from complete. Arguably they should have given it a higher priority but no doubt they thought they had more time.
They toxified the Conservative party with everyone who were told that net immigration would be reduced to the tens of thousands, who were told that Britain would have a "march of the makers", who were told that "we're all in this together", who were told that there would be no more Middle Eastern warmongering.
And Cameron was always a lucky politician.
That's not a criticism of Cameron, there are few things better to have than good luck.
But many of the things Cameron and Osborne did are having negative effects on the Conservatives and Britain generally and these negative effects are likely to be long term.0 -
It didn't change my vote but I thought the response to the Terror attacks including floating the idea of changing the burden of proof were completely unacceptable. Outside of the actual need to get Brexit done and dusted I am certainly not willing to support such an authoritarian minded PM.HYUFD said:
Most of those changes to toughen up anti terror laws had big public support in polling afterwards, you may have disagreed with them but they certainly did not cost the Tories many votesThomasNashe said:
It was actually Mrs May's response to the London Bridge attacks that made me change my intended Tory vote to a Labour one just a few days before the poll. To be precise, when she made this announcement:foxinsoxuk said:
There were some such as my good self, and Nick P that pointed out that such events rarely if ever make a difference to the polls or elections. The murder of Jo Cox didn't affect things either. People generally do not react to such events by changing their party politics.Theuniondivvie said:
If only those on here* who almost immediately began to speculate on how it was going to reflect really badly on Corbyn & have an influence on the GE campaign had been similarly measured.Sean_F said:The reaction to the Manchester bombing was surely sensible and reasonable.
*I'm not suggesting you were one of them.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-human-rights-laws-terror-legislation-london-attack-tear-up-election-latest-a7776286.html
I then heard Nick Clegg give a devastating excoriation of her on R4 Today - and I finally made up my mind.0 -
Oh Yes! Boris Johnson! An unmitigated bounder, liar, farseur and cad...... The real face of the modern Conservative Party.... Bring him on!HYUFD said:
Yes, Osborne of course ran the 2010 campaign when the Tories did not win a majority either.Sean_F said:May, Cameron, and Osborne all have tin ears in differing ways.
In terms of winning records Boris, with 2 London Mayoral wins and an EU referendum win beats them all0 -
Not entirely, the IHT cut was opposed by the LDs and popular in government and of course a majority voted for an EU referendum in 2015 and Brexit in 2016 opposed by the LDsPClipp said:
As usual, you are forgetting the influence of the Lib Dems, which helped Cameron to de-toxify the Tories in certain areas. Thank you Lib Dems!HYUFD said:They detoxified the Tories only on issues like gay marriage and climate change, on issues like austerity and interest on student loans they retoxified it, certainly with public sector workers and the under 30s.
What they were good at was things like the IHT cut which appealed to the middle aged and swing voters and the base and the triple lock which appealed to pensioners, May ending the latter and pushing the dementia tax hit Tory support with both groups
Where the Tories pushed on with their own hard-line policies, you are of course quite right. They alone are responsible fore their own downfall.0 -
The Coalition was substantially a golden period of good government, tuition fees being an exception.PClipp said:
As usual, you are forgetting the influence of the Lib Dems, which helped Cameron to de-toxify the Tories in certain areas. Thank you Lib Dems!HYUFD said:They detoxified the Tories only on issues like gay marriage and climate change, on issues like austerity and interest on student loans they retoxified it, certainly with public sector workers and the under 30s.
What they were good at was things like the IHT cut which appealed to the middle aged and swing voters and the base and the triple lock which appealed to pensioners, May ending the latter and pushing the dementia tax hit Tory support with both groups
Where the Tories pushed on with their own hard-line policies, you are of course quite right. They alone are responsible fore their own downfall.
This was not just because of my own party having a place in the government, but is intrinsic to the nature of coalition. Policies have to be threshed out in cabinet, and cabinet committee in advance, and the PM cannot just appoint yes men. As such, half baked policies are not sprung prematurely. A more consultative style, rather than Strong and Stable, may have led to a better Tory manifesto, and certainly a less presidential style of campaign.
Jezza does this well. He argues his own case, but abides by policies that he personally argued against. Indeed I understand that his shadow cabinet meetings are rather rambling as a result.0 -
Yes but you are a libertarian so that is not that surprising, I did not say the plans were right or wrong just they had the support of most of the public in the pollsRichard_Tyndall said:
It didn't change my vote but I thought the response to the Terror attacks including floating the idea of changing the burden of proof were completely unacceptable. Outside of the actual need to get Brexit done and dusted I am certainly not willing to support such an authoritarian minded PM.HYUFD said:
Most of those changes to toughen up anti terror laws had big public support in polling afterwards, you may have disagreed with them but they certainly did not cost the Tories many votesThomasNashe said:
It was actually Mrs May's response to the London Bridge attacks that made me change my intended Tory vote to a Labour one just a few days before the poll. To be precise, when she made this announcement:foxinsoxuk said:
There were some such as my good self, and Nick P that pointed out that such events rarely if ever make a difference to the polls or elections. The murder of Jo Cox didn't affect things either. People generally do not react to such events by changing their party politics.Theuniondivvie said:
If only those on here* who almost immediately began to speculate on how it was going to reflect really badly on Corbyn & have an influence on the GE campaign had been similarly measured.Sean_F said:The reaction to the Manchester bombing was surely sensible and reasonable.
*I'm not suggesting you were one of them.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-human-rights-laws-terror-legislation-london-attack-tear-up-election-latest-a7776286.html
I then heard Nick Clegg give a devastating excoriation of her on R4 Today - and I finally made up my mind.0 -
In terms of overall seat numbers, the results for 2010, 2015, and 2017, are not very different for the Conservatives. That suggests that their support (or lack of it) doesn't have much to do with the leadership.Ishmael_Z said:
Agreed, all this comparing of election results is almost entirely beside the point. If someone contended that One Direction were better than the Doors, you wouldn't decide the issue on gross earnings or no 1 records, I hope. The test of politicians is whether they left their country and their party in better condition than they found them. So just look around you.another_richard said:
Sometimes luck falls your way.TheScreamingEagles said:
Yet they still won a majority despite all of that, and increasing the Tory share of the vote and seats.another_richard said:
Cameron and Osborne toxified the Conservative party with everyone who graduates £50,000 in debt and with everyone who reaches 30 still renting a room.DavidL said:Cameron and Osborne's work in detoxifying the Tory Party was a long from complete. Arguably they should have given it a higher priority but no doubt they thought they had more time.
They toxified the Conservative party with everyone who were told that net immigration would be reduced to the tens of thousands, who were told that Britain would have a "march of the makers", who were told that "we're all in this together", who were told that there would be no more Middle Eastern warmongering.
And Cameron was always a lucky politician.
That's not a criticism of Cameron, there are few things better to have than good luck.
But many of the things Cameron and Osborne did are having negative effects on the Conservatives and Britain generally and these negative effects are likely to be long term.0 -
Boris is still the public's choice to be next Tory leader in the polls and he does know how to win an electionPClipp said:
Oh Yes! Boris Johnson! An unmitigated bounder, liar, farseur and cad...... The real face of the modern Conservative Party.... Bring him on!HYUFD said:
Yes, Osborne of course ran the 2010 campaign when the Tories did not win a majority either.Sean_F said:May, Cameron, and Osborne all have tin ears in differing ways.
In terms of winning records Boris, with 2 London Mayoral wins and an EU referendum win beats them all0 -
LOL and then back to Eastenders and leave it to flunkeysfoxinsoxuk said:
It is the protocol of the times to express sympathies by such means. Obviously it can be fairly superficial, even facile, but it is not something that slows down the serious work.Sean_F said:The reaction to the Manchester bombing was surely sensible and reasonable.
"Terrible news from XXX. My sympathies are with the victims and their families, and the Emergency services will have all nessecary support from my government"
Pretty generic, but lets people know that the PM is taking an interest.0 -
Anecdotal evidence of the Conservative campaign being bad - my Dad's a member and was repeatedly texted during the campaign to ask if he could go and help in Clacton (he didn't bother). Giles Watling ended up with over 60% of the vote, a 16k majority, and UKIP in 3rd place. They didn't for example ask him to stay in Colchester, where Will Quince's majority was 10k smaller, or even better send him to Ipswich.0
-
Slash university places and the obscene salaries they pay themselves in that sector. Scrap all the courses that lead to nothing other than bar work or burger flipping. Start some real vocational colleges where they teach real skills for all the jobs we import labour for currently.DavidL said:
The grant situation is unsustainable and unacceptable. Where the money is going to come from to do something about it I really don't know. The deficit is going up again already.another_richard said:
Cameron and Osborne toxified the Conservative party with everyone who graduates £50,000 in debt and with everyone who reaches 30 still renting a room.DavidL said:Cameron and Osborne's work in detoxifying the Tory Party was a long from complete. Arguably they should have given it a higher priority but no doubt they thought they had more time.
They toxified the Conservative party with everyone who were told that net immigration would be reduced to the tens of thousands, who were told that Britain would have a "march of the makers", who were told that "we're all in this together", who were told that there would be no more Middle Eastern warmongering.0 -
I would love to know what you smoke, it is strong stuffHYUFD said:
Boris is still the public's choice to be next Tory leader in the polls and he does know how to win an electionPClipp said:
Oh Yes! Boris Johnson! An unmitigated bounder, liar, farseur and cad...... The real face of the modern Conservative Party.... Bring him on!HYUFD said:
Yes, Osborne of course ran the 2010 campaign when the Tories did not win a majority either.Sean_F said:May, Cameron, and Osborne all have tin ears in differing ways.
In terms of winning records Boris, with 2 London Mayoral wins and an EU referendum win beats them all0 -
That would be a pretty good start but all politicians these days like to pretend they can deliver something for nothing. Selling serious cutbacks in the bloated University sector would be a real challenge.malcolmg said:
Slash university places and the obscene salaries they pay themselves in that sector. Scrap all the courses that lead to nothing other than bar work or burger flipping. Start some real vocational colleges where they teach real skills for all the jobs we import labour for currently.DavidL said:
The grant situation is unsustainable and unacceptable. Where the money is going to come from to do something about it I really don't know. The deficit is going up again already.another_richard said:
Cameron and Osborne toxified the Conservative party with everyone who graduates £50,000 in debt and with everyone who reaches 30 still renting a room.DavidL said:Cameron and Osborne's work in detoxifying the Tory Party was a long from complete. Arguably they should have given it a higher priority but no doubt they thought they had more time.
They toxified the Conservative party with everyone who were told that net immigration would be reduced to the tens of thousands, who were told that Britain would have a "march of the makers", who were told that "we're all in this together", who were told that there would be no more Middle Eastern warmongering.0 -
The fundamental problem is the insistence that 50% of people should go to university.DavidL said:
The grant situation is unsustainable and unacceptable. Where the money is going to come from to do something about it I really don't know. The deficit is going up again already.another_richard said:
Cameron and Osborne toxified the Conservative party with everyone who graduates £50,000 in debt and with everyone who reaches 30 still renting a room.DavidL said:Cameron and Osborne's work in detoxifying the Tory Party was a long from complete. Arguably they should have given it a higher priority but no doubt they thought they had more time.
They toxified the Conservative party with everyone who were told that net immigration would be reduced to the tens of thousands, who were told that Britain would have a "march of the makers", who were told that "we're all in this together", who were told that there would be no more Middle Eastern warmongering.
That's an entirely arbitrary number.
The state should support those courses that it thinks add value to society. These will most likely be vocational (eg teacher training, nursing) or STEM, or a small number of purely academic pursuits for the most intelligent.
Beyond that anyone who wants to go to university and is willing to pay for it can.
But I don't understand why the state should pay for someone to spend three years enjoying themselves at the taxpayers expense while doing a degree that will add marginal value either to them or to society as a whole. That just seems to be an inefficient use of resources.0 -
I doubt if more than 20% or so would benefit from going to university.Charles said:
The fundamental problem is the insistence that 50% of people should go to university.DavidL said:
The grant situation is unsustainable and unacceptable. Where the money is going to come from to do something about it I really don't know. The deficit is going up again already.another_richard said:
Cameron and Osborne toxified the Conservative party with everyone who graduates £50,000 in debt and with everyone who reaches 30 still renting a room.DavidL said:Cameron and Osborne's work in detoxifying the Tory Party was a long from complete. Arguably they should have given it a higher priority but no doubt they thought they had more time.
They toxified the Conservative party with everyone who were told that net immigration would be reduced to the tens of thousands, who were told that Britain would have a "march of the makers", who were told that "we're all in this together", who were told that there would be no more Middle Eastern warmongering.
That's an entirely arbitrary number.
The state should support those courses that it thinks add value to society. These will most likely be vocational (eg teacher training, nursing) or STEM, or a small number of purely academic pursuits for the most intelligent.
Beyond that anyone who wants to go to university and is willing to pay for it can.
But I don't understand why the state should pay for someone to spend three years enjoying themselves at the taxpayers expense while doing a degree that will add marginal value either to them or to society as a whole. That just seems to be an inefficient use of resources.0 -
Afternoon Malc - once again we are on the same page. When I left school in 1960 only about 5% went to University and it was free. Only the most academic clever students followed that course as there were an enormous number of entry level apprentices across most sectors where you worked and attended courses at the same time, usually sponsored by the employer.malcolmg said:
Slash university places and the obscene salaries they pay themselves in that sector. Scrap all the courses that lead to nothing other than bar work or burger flipping. Start some real vocational colleges where they teach real skills for all the jobs we import labour for currently.DavidL said:
The grant situation is unsustainable and unacceptable. Where the money is going to come from to do something about it I really don't know. The deficit is going up again already.another_richard said:
Cameron and Osborne toxified the Conservative party with everyone who graduates £50,000 in debt and with everyone who reaches 30 still renting a room.DavidL said:Cameron and Osborne's work in detoxifying the Tory Party was a long from complete. Arguably they should have given it a higher priority but no doubt they thought they had more time.
They toxified the Conservative party with everyone who were told that net immigration would be reduced to the tens of thousands, who were told that Britain would have a "march of the makers", who were told that "we're all in this together", who were told that there would be no more Middle Eastern warmongering.
Blair's idea that 50% should go to Uni was just nuts and resulted in so many inappropriate degrees leading to dead ends.
We should offer free University courses to Doctors, Teachers, Scientists and Engineers but subject to a commitment to contribute to the UK economy for a minimum of between 5 and 10 years. Beyond that all other courses should be full fee paying by the student0 -
Unfortunately I think it was Major rather than Blair who came up with the idea of massively increasing the numbers going to university. But I do agree with Malc and yourself it was a huge mistake.Big_G_NorthWales said:Afternoon Malc - once again we are on the same page. When I left school in 1960 only about 5% went to University and it was free. Only the most academic clever students followed that course as there were an enormous number of entry level apprentices across most sectors where you worked and attended courses at the same time, usually sponsored by the employer.
Blair's idea that 50% should go to Uni was just nuts and resulted in so many inappropriate degrees leading to dead ends.
We should offer free University courses to Doctors, Teachers, Scientists and Engineers but subject to a commitment to contribute to the UK economy for a minimum of between 5 and 10 years. Beyond that all other courses should be full fee paying by the student0 -
Spot on.malcolmg said:
Slash university places and the obscene salaries they pay themselves in that sector. Scrap all the courses that lead to nothing other than bar work or burger flipping. Start some real vocational colleges where they teach real skills for all the jobs we import labour for currently.DavidL said:
The grant situation is unsustainable and unacceptable. Where the money is going to come from to do something about it I really don't know. The deficit is going up again already.another_richard said:
Cameron and Osborne toxified the Conservative party with everyone who graduates £50,000 in debt and with everyone who reaches 30 still renting a room.DavidL said:Cameron and Osborne's work in detoxifying the Tory Party was a long from complete. Arguably they should have given it a higher priority but no doubt they thought they had more time.
They toxified the Conservative party with everyone who were told that net immigration would be reduced to the tens of thousands, who were told that Britain would have a "march of the makers", who were told that "we're all in this together", who were told that there would be no more Middle Eastern warmongering.0 -
Yes, bare-faced lying, brazening it out, making a joke of everything, and running away from all responsibility.....HYUFD said:
Boris is still the public's choice to be next Tory leader in the polls and he does know how to win an electionPClipp said:
Oh Yes! Boris Johnson! An unmitigated bounder, liar, farseur and cad...... The real face of the modern Conservative Party.... Bring him on!HYUFD said:
Yes, Osborne of course ran the 2010 campaign when the Tories did not win a majority either.Sean_F said:May, Cameron, and Osborne all have tin ears in differing ways.
In terms of winning records Boris, with 2 London Mayoral wins and an EU referendum win beats them all
And giving fat salaries to all his cronies, to do the work for him...
While he goes in for stunts and insulting all our friends.
Just what the country needs.0 -
There must be enough data in the student loans company to give precise figures for the economic value of a degree?0
-
After Cameron resigned, Boris tried to replace him, then accepted the job of Foreign Secretary. How is that 'running away from all responsibility'?PClipp said:
Yes, bare-faced lying, brazening it out, making a joke of everything, and running away from all responsibility.....HYUFD said:
Boris is still the public's choice to be next Tory leader in the polls and he does know how to win an electionPClipp said:
Oh Yes! Boris Johnson! An unmitigated bounder, liar, farseur and cad...... The real face of the modern Conservative Party.... Bring him on!HYUFD said:
Yes, Osborne of course ran the 2010 campaign when the Tories did not win a majority either.Sean_F said:May, Cameron, and Osborne all have tin ears in differing ways.
In terms of winning records Boris, with 2 London Mayoral wins and an EU referendum win beats them all
And giving fat salaries to all his cronies, to do the work for him...
While he goes in for stunts and insulting all our friends.
Just what the country needs.0 -
Only 5% going to University was to elitist .Glad The Open University was created in the 1960s to give the chance to many more to expand their abilities.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Afternoon Malc - once again we are on the same page. When I left school in 1960 only about 5% went to University and it was free. Only the most academic clever students followed that course as there were an enormous number of entry level apprentices across most sectors where you worked and attended courses at the same time, usually sponsored by the employer.malcolmg said:
Slash university places and the obscene salaries they pay themselves in that sector. Scrap all the courses that lead to nothing other than bar work or burger flipping. Start some real vocational colleges where they teach real skills for all the jobs we import labour for currently.DavidL said:
The grant situation is unsustainable and unacceptable. Where the money is going to come from to do something about it I really don't know. The deficit is going up again already.another_richard said:
Cameron and Osborne toxified the Conservative party with everyone who graduates £50,000 in debt and with everyone who reaches 30 still renting a room.DavidL said:Cameron and Osborne's work in detoxifying the Tory Party was a long from complete. Arguably they should have given it a higher priority but no doubt they thought they had more time.
They toxified the Conservative party with everyone who were told that net immigration would be reduced to the tens of thousands, who were told that Britain would have a "march of the makers", who were told that "we're all in this together", who were told that there would be no more Middle Eastern warmongering.
Blair's idea that 50% should go to Uni was just nuts and resulted in so many inappropriate degrees leading to dead ends.
We should offer free University courses to Doctors, Teachers, Scientists and Engineers but subject to a commitment to contribute to the UK economy for a minimum of between 5 and 10 years. Beyond that all other courses should be full fee paying by the student0 -
Juncker sets out his vision for a new start in the EU
amazingly it involves more Europe
European army on the cards and those pesky east europeans will learn what it means to be in Europe whether they like it or not
https://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/article168495293/Jean-Claude-Junckers-Plaene-fuer-einen-Neustart-der-EU.html0 -
I'm fine with a European army if it means they will pull their weight and so fewer of our soldiers have to die for themAlanbrooke said:Juncker sets out his vision for a new start in the EU
amazingly it involves more Europe
European army on the cards and those pesky east europeans will learn what it means to be in Europe whether they like it or not
https://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/article168495293/Jean-Claude-Junckers-Plaene-fuer-einen-Neustart-der-EU.html0 -
Mr. Brooke, one army, one EU, one very well-stocked drinks cabinet!0
-
Far from 'running away from his responsibilities' he is currently Foreign Secretary and has been Mayor of London which are two rather more responsible positions than Mr Corbyn had held before he became Labour leaderPClipp said:
Yes, bare-faced lying, brazening it out, making a joke of everything, and running away from all responsibility.....HYUFD said:
Boris is still the public's choice to be next Tory leader in the polls and he does know how to win an electionPClipp said:
Oh Yes! Boris Johnson! An unmitigated bounder, liar, farseur and cad...... The real face of the modern Conservative Party.... Bring him on!HYUFD said:
Yes, Osborne of course ran the 2010 campaign when the Tories did not win a majority either.Sean_F said:May, Cameron, and Osborne all have tin ears in differing ways.
In terms of winning records Boris, with 2 London Mayoral wins and an EU referendum win beats them all
And giving fat salaries to all his cronies, to do the work for him...
While he goes in for stunts and insulting all our friends.
Just what the country needs.0 -
France will be pulling it's weight by cutting defence spendingCharles said:
I'm fine with a European army if it means they will pull their weight and so fewer of our soldiers have to die for themAlanbrooke said:Juncker sets out his vision for a new start in the EU
amazingly it involves more Europe
European army on the cards and those pesky east europeans will learn what it means to be in Europe whether they like it or not
https://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/article168495293/Jean-Claude-Junckers-Plaene-fuer-einen-Neustart-der-EU.html
meanshwile Macron has launched his vision of Europe which is based on telling Mrs Merkel to pay Frances bills
https://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/article168490836/Macron-inszeniert-sich-als-Antipode-zu-Angela-Merkel.html
should be a runaway success0 -
I don't think it was necessarily wrong to have an election.
Obviously the way the Tories fought it and the policies the chose to put in their manifesto were dreadful and that's mainly what did for them (which I doubt David Davis could have foreseen when he was urging Tessa to go for it)0 -
The comments on the article from the German readership are very negative towards Juncker too.Alanbrooke said:
France will be pulling it's weight by cutting defence spendingCharles said:
I'm fine with a European army if it means they will pull their weight and so fewer of our soldiers have to die for themAlanbrooke said:Juncker sets out his vision for a new start in the EU
amazingly it involves more Europe
European army on the cards and those pesky east europeans will learn what it means to be in Europe whether they like it or not
https://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/article168495293/Jean-Claude-Junckers-Plaene-fuer-einen-Neustart-der-EU.html
meanshwile Macron has launched his vision of Europe which is based on telling Mrs Merkel to pay Frances bills
https://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/article168490836/Macron-inszeniert-sich-als-Antipode-zu-Angela-Merkel.html
should be a runaway success0 -
What in the name of heaven is chicken lasagne?
I think I need to go and lie down.0 -
Ironically May may have done the Tories a favour next time by providing a textbook lesson in how not to win.0
-
Instead of the traditional meat, you have chicken.Richard_Nabavi said:What in the name of heaven is chicken lasagne?
I think I need to go and lie down.
It's not as mingin' as I first thought it would be when I tried it.
The boiled potatoes that were served with them is my biggest issue.0 -
I tried to block that aspect of it out of my mind.TheScreamingEagles said:Instead of the traditional meat, you have chicken.
It's not as mingin' as I first thought it would be when I tried it.
The boiled potatoes that were served with them is my biggest issue.0 -
Some years ago I recall stopping off at a pub in north Yorkshire where lasagne with yorkshire pudding was on the menu.Richard_Nabavi said:
I tried to block that aspect of it out of my mind.TheScreamingEagles said:Instead of the traditional meat, you have chicken.
It's not as mingin' as I first thought it would be when I tried it.
The boiled potatoes that were served with them is my biggest issue.0 -
Hello BigG, exactly and crank up the number of courses for trades and other opportunities that will get people real jobs.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Afternoon Malc - once again we are on the same page. When I left school in 1960 only about 5% went to University and it was free. Only the most academic clever students followed that course as there were an enormous number of entry level apprentices across most sectors where you worked and attended courses at the same time, usually sponsored by the employer.malcolmg said:
Slash university places and the obscene salaries they pay themselves in that sector. Scrap all the courses that lead to nothing other than bar work or burger flipping. Start some real vocational colleges where they teach real skills for all the jobs we import labour for currently.DavidL said:
The grant situation is unsustainable and unacceptable. Where the money is going to come from to do something about it I really don't know. The deficit is going up again already.another_richard said:
Cameron and Osborne toxified the Conservative party with everyone who graduates £50,000 in debt and with everyone who reaches 30 still renting a room.DavidL said:Cameron and Osborne's work in detoxifying the Tory Party was a long from complete. Arguably they should have given it a higher priority but no doubt they thought they had more time.
They toxified the Conservative party with everyone who were told that net immigration would be reduced to the tens of thousands, who were told that Britain would have a "march of the makers", who were told that "we're all in this together", who were told that there would be no more Middle Eastern warmongering.
Blair's idea that 50% should go to Uni was just nuts and resulted in so many inappropriate degrees leading to dead ends.
We should offer free University courses to Doctors, Teachers, Scientists and Engineers but subject to a commitment to contribute to the UK economy for a minimum of between 5 and 10 years. Beyond that all other courses should be full fee paying by the student0 -
Miami underwater;
https://twitter.com/BrianEntin/status/906920269402558464/video/1
Looks like the Gulf coast, esp Tampa area, is going to suffer the worst of it.
Not nice.0 -
Mind you I wonder if it was a case of the lasagne and the potatoes being amongst many other items. If you are catering for a group of people it is often the case that you will produce a selection of choices to cater for different tastes.TheScreamingEagles said:
Instead of the traditional meat, you have chicken.Richard_Nabavi said:What in the name of heaven is chicken lasagne?
I think I need to go and lie down.
It's not as mingin' as I first thought it would be when I tried it.
The boiled potatoes that were served with them is my biggest issue.0 -
Yes agree 5% is too low but 50% is a joke,an expensive one as well.Yorkcity said:
Only 5% going to University was to elitist .Glad The Open University was created in the 1960s to give the chance to many more to expand their abilities.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Afternoon Malc - once again we are on the same page. When I left school in 1960 only about 5% went to University and it was free. Only the most academic clever students followed that course as there were an enormous number of entry level apprentices across most sectors where you worked and attended courses at the same time, usually sponsored by the employer.malcolmg said:
Slash university places and the obscene salaries they pay themselves in that sector. Scrap all the courses that lead to nothing other than bar work or burger flipping. Start some real vocational colleges where they teach real skills for all the jobs we import labour for currently.DavidL said:
The grant situation is unsustainable and unacceptable. Where the money is going to come from to do something about it I really don't know. The deficit is going up again already.another_richard said:
Cameron and Osborne toxified the Conservative party with everyone who graduates £50,000 in debt and with everyone who reaches 30 still renting a room.DavidL said:Cameron and Osborne's work in detoxifying the Tory Party was a long from complete. Arguably they should have given it a higher priority but no doubt they thought they had more time.
They toxified the Conservative party with everyone who were told that net immigration would be reduced to the tens of thousands, who were told that Britain would have a "march of the makers", who were told that "we're all in this together", who were told that there would be no more Middle Eastern warmongering.
Blair's idea that 50% should go to Uni was just nuts and resulted in so many inappropriate degrees leading to dead ends.
We should offer free University courses to Doctors, Teachers, Scientists and Engineers but subject to a commitment to contribute to the UK economy for a minimum of between 5 and 10 years. Beyond that all other courses should be full fee paying by the student0 -
The tories, especially since 2015, have given the country a textbook lesson in how not to govern. The wealthy rightwing pensioners party put their foot on the accelerator, forcing their social and economic agenda on the country.stevef said:Ironically May may have done the Tories a favour next time by providing a textbook lesson in how not to win.
The oddest thing is that they seem surprised there's a backlash.0 -
I once came across lasagne and baked beans.ThomasNashe said:
Some years ago I recall stopping off at a pub in north Yorkshire where lasagne with yorkshire pudding was on the menu.Richard_Nabavi said:
I tried to block that aspect of it out of my mind.TheScreamingEagles said:Instead of the traditional meat, you have chicken.
It's not as mingin' as I first thought it would be when I tried it.
The boiled potatoes that were served with them is my biggest issue.0 -
That sounds delicious, so long as they were both good (and, I've never had a bad pub meal in Yorkshire).ThomasNashe said:
Some years ago I recall stopping off at a pub in north Yorkshire where lasagne with yorkshire pudding was on the menu.Richard_Nabavi said:
I tried to block that aspect of it out of my mind.TheScreamingEagles said:Instead of the traditional meat, you have chicken.
It's not as mingin' as I first thought it would be when I tried it.
The boiled potatoes that were served with them is my biggest issue.0 -
By promising to end the Triple Lock and by proposing to make more wealthy pensioners pay for their care?Pong said:The tories, especially since 2015, have given the country a textbook lesson in how not to govern.
The wealthy rightwing pensioners party put their foot on the accelerator, forcing their social and economic agenda on the country..
Why do you post such arrant nonsense? Have you just got the Labour and Tory manifestos mixed up, perhaps?0 -
20% would put us substantially lower than our economic competitors, in the same ballpark as developing countries such as Mexico. Notably the only EU country in that range is Italy, not particularly a country we should emulate economically.Sean_F said:
I doubt if more than 20% or so would benefit from going to university.Charles said:
The fundamental problem is the insistence that 50% of people should go to university.DavidL said:
The grant situation is unsustainable and unacceptable. Where the money is going to come from to do something about it I really don't know. The deficit is going up again already.another_richard said:
Cameron and Osborne toxified the Conservative party with everyone who graduates £50,000 in debt and with everyone who reaches 30 still renting a room.DavidL said:Cameron and Osborne's work in detoxifying the Tory Party was a long from complete. Arguably they should have given it a higher priority but no doubt they thought they had more time.
They toxified the Conservative party with everyone who were told that net immigration would be reduced to the tens of thousands, who were told that Britain would have a "march of the makers", who were told that "we're all in this together", who were told that there would be no more Middle Eastern warmongering.
That's an entirely arbitrary number.
The state should support those courses that it thinks add value to society. These will most likely be vocational (eg teacher training, nursing) or STEM, or a small number of purely academic pursuits for the most intelligent.
Beyond that anyone who wants to go to university and is willing to pay for it can.
But I don't understand why the state should pay for someone to spend three years enjoying themselves at the taxpayers expense while doing a degree that will add marginal value either to them or to society as a whole. That just seems to be an inefficient use of resources.
What we really need is for those degree courses to be well taught, contain useful content, and for the country to produce graduate level jobs. If the Swiss and South Koreans and others can do this, then why cannot we? Are Britons thicker than other nations?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tertiary_education_attainment0 -
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Richard do you still think they will proceed with ending the triple lock and making more wealthy pensioners pay for their care ? As May seems to be rowing back on student fees, public sector pay , and reducing the deficit .In essence a bit of Corbyn light.Richard_Nabavi said:
By promising to end the Triple Lock and by proposing to make more wealthy pensioners pay for their care?Pong said:The tories, especially since 2015, have given the country a textbook lesson in how not to govern.
The wealthy rightwing pensioners party put their foot on the accelerator, forcing their social and economic agenda on the country..
Why do you post such arrant nonsense? Have you just got the Labour and Tory manifestos mixed up, perhaps?0 -
I gave TM & the excellent Nick Timothy and Fiona Hill credit for that, at the time.Richard_Nabavi said:
By promising to end the Triple Lock and by proposing to make more wealthy pensioners pay for their care?Pong said:The tories, especially since 2015, have given the country a textbook lesson in how not to govern.
The wealthy rightwing pensioners party put their foot on the accelerator, forcing their social and economic agenda on the country..
It's not happening, though, is it?0 -
Vegetable lasagne is alrightRichard_Nabavi said:What in the name of heaven is chicken lasagne?
I think I need to go and lie down.0 -
So the LibDem bar chart team defected to labour?Sunil_Prasannan said:Such a disastrous election campaign!
https://twitter.com/Sunil_P2/status/8768940664783298570 -
He won Lefty London twice, in 2008 and 2012. He was the reason my hand hovered over the Tory box for the very first time in 2008HYUFD said:
Boris is still the public's choice to be next Tory leader in the polls and he does know how to win an electionPClipp said:
Oh Yes! Boris Johnson! An unmitigated bounder, liar, farseur and cad...... The real face of the modern Conservative Party.... Bring him on!HYUFD said:
Yes, Osborne of course ran the 2010 campaign when the Tories did not win a majority either.Sean_F said:May, Cameron, and Osborne all have tin ears in differing ways.
In terms of winning records Boris, with 2 London Mayoral wins and an EU referendum win beats them all0 -
It's not happening because Labour promised to protect the triple lock.Pong said:
I gave TM & the excellent Nick Timothy and Fiona Hill credit for that, at the time.Richard_Nabavi said:
By promising to end the Triple Lock and by proposing to make more wealthy pensioners pay for their care?Pong said:The tories, especially since 2015, have given the country a textbook lesson in how not to govern.
The wealthy rightwing pensioners party put their foot on the accelerator, forcing their social and economic agenda on the country..
It's not happening, though, is it?0 -
In 1961 I joined the Eagle Star Insurance Company in Edinburgh and while working for them they also sponsored me for the ACII qualification. This was one of thousands of schemes across the UK and backed up, as has already been said, by the Open Universitymalcolmg said:
Hello BigG, exactly and crank up the number of courses for trades and other opportunities that will get people real jobs.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Afternoon Malc - once again we are on the same page. When I left school in 1960 only about 5% went to University and it was free. Only the most academic clever students followed that course as there were an enormous number of entry level apprentices across most sectors where you worked and attended courses at the same time, usually sponsored by the employer.malcolmg said:
Slash university places and the obscene salaries they pay themselves in that sector. Scrap all the courses that lead to nothing other than bar work or burger flipping. Start some real vocational colleges where they teach real skills for all the jobs we import labour for currently.DavidL said:
The grant situation is unsustainable and unacceptable. Where the money is going to come from to do something about it I really don't know. The deficit is going up again already.another_richard said:
Cameron and Osborne toxified the Conservative party with everyone who graduates £50,000 in debt and with everyone who reaches 30 still renting a room.DavidL said:Cameron and Osborne's work in detoxifying the Tory Party was a long from complete. Arguably they should have given it a higher priority but no doubt they thought they had more time.
They toxified the Conservative party with everyone who were told that net immigration would be reduced to the tens of thousands, who were told that Britain would have a "march of the makers", who were told that "we're all in this together", who were told that there would be no more Middle Eastern warmongering.
Blair's idea that 50% should go to Uni was just nuts and resulted in so many inappropriate degrees leading to dead ends.
We should offer free University courses to Doctors, Teachers, Scientists and Engineers but subject to a commitment to contribute to the UK economy for a minimum of between 5 and 10 years. Beyond that all other courses should be full fee paying by the student
I cannot understand why most decree courses cannot be condensed to two years on a full time basis, ( with the exception of medical). Cut out long holidays and partying and concentrate on the things that matter0 -
Do you honestly think it was good ? When they had 20% poll leads , many on here me included saying it was a forgone conclusion.many predictions over 100 majority.Why not give us your insight rather inane bar charts.Sunil_Prasannan said:Such a disastrous election campaign!
https://twitter.com/Sunil_P2/status/8768940664783298570 -
Which is completely viable, in conjunction with a LVT and other fair wealth taxes.TheScreamingEagles said:
It's not happening because Labour promised to protect the triple lock.Pong said:
I gave TM & the excellent Nick Timothy and Fiona Hill credit for that, at the time.Richard_Nabavi said:
By promising to end the Triple Lock and by proposing to make more wealthy pensioners pay for their care?Pong said:The tories, especially since 2015, have given the country a textbook lesson in how not to govern.
The wealthy rightwing pensioners party put their foot on the accelerator, forcing their social and economic agenda on the country..
It's not happening, though, is it?0 -
This makes boiled potatoes with lasagne look appealing.
Thief burst into McDonald's brandishing knife in one hand and PENIS in other.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/thief-burst-mcdonalds-brandishing-knife-111431650 -
Explain how LVT will impact on ordinary home owners and how you define fair wealth taxesPong said:
Which is completely viable, in conjunction with a LVT and other fair wealth taxes.TheScreamingEagles said:
It's not happening because Labour promised to protect the triple lock.Pong said:
I gave TM & the excellent Nick Timothy and Fiona Hill credit for that, at the time.Richard_Nabavi said:
By promising to end the Triple Lock and by proposing to make more wealthy pensioners pay for their care?Pong said:The tories, especially since 2015, have given the country a textbook lesson in how not to govern.
The wealthy rightwing pensioners party put their foot on the accelerator, forcing their social and economic agenda on the country..
It's not happening, though, is it?0 -
Oh Lord, you really believe that?Pong said:
Which is completely viable, in conjunction with a LVT and other fair wealth taxes.TheScreamingEagles said:
It's not happening because Labour promised to protect the triple lock.Pong said:
I gave TM & the excellent Nick Timothy and Fiona Hill credit for that, at the time.Richard_Nabavi said:
By promising to end the Triple Lock and by proposing to make more wealthy pensioners pay for their care?Pong said:The tories, especially since 2015, have given the country a textbook lesson in how not to govern.
The wealthy rightwing pensioners party put their foot on the accelerator, forcing their social and economic agenda on the country..
It's not happening, though, is it?0 -
You should rejoice that Comrade Corbyn won 55 more seats than Terrible Tessie!Yorkcity said:
Do you honestly think it was good ? When they had 20% poll leads , many on here me included saying it was a forgone conclusion.many predictions over 100 majority.Why not give us your insight rather inane bar charts.Sunil_Prasannan said:Such a disastrous election campaign!
https://twitter.com/Sunil_P2/status/876894066478329857
You should celebrate Jezza winning 2% more of the popular vote!0