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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Ladbrokes 20/1 that the Brexit Secretary, DDavis, will be

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  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180
    Scott_P said:
    Of course the EU can say no to any UK proposals in the negotiation... and must live with the consequences.
  • Alice_AforethoughtAlice_Aforethought Posts: 772
    edited August 2017
    felix said:

    Ideally, UK citizens would have the right to go wherever they wanted whereas no such reciprocal right would accrue to citizens of other countries.

    As that's not going to happen, whatever you allow in one of those directions, you must concede in the other.

    European leaders should perhaps be worried more than they seem to be by what happens when the UK is no longer available as a place where young unskilled workers can easily get jobs. If they can't work here and they can't work over there, where will they work?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,728

    My $400k of shares went from being worth £274k, at $1.46 to the £ on 22/6/16, to being worth £317k, at £1.26 to the £ a year later. So I'm better off by £43k just there.

    Brexit bought me two completely refitted C P Hart bathrooms.
    Indeed, I have seen no reason to change my portfolio since my pre-Brexit hedge rebalance.

    Meagre consolation; you have your bathrooms, I dipped my toe into the 2015s.
  • nunuonenunuone Posts: 1,138

    I think Nigel will find fault with whatever outcome the government manages to secure, even if it doesn't secure anything at all. Why wouldn't he? Nigel's position is to destroy the Tory party and replace it with himself. With whipped-out feelings of betrayal and disappointment behind him, he'll make easy meat of Theresa's already crippled Tory party. Theresa should be very afraid.
    We now know most former ukip voters came from labour not the conservatives. Corbyn should be worried if nige makes a comeback.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180
    TOPPING said:

    You must be the only one on here who doesn't ascribe motives for why people vote the way they do. I believe there has been some polling on the matter.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    Scott_P said:
    'Twas a close run thing.....Mr Dunt nearly wrote Masterful British Position Paper stuns EU Interlocutors,.....
  • Nigelb said:

    Congratulations.
    I'm guessing, though, that you are not entirely characteristic of the wider UK population.
    I'm roughly as characteristic as Mr. Smithson, who imagines that because "£1 bought 1.35 euros before EURef", "We are all a lot poorer". The royal "we" perhaps.
  • It has an elected government that doesn't want to leave the single market, and a larger democratic mandate for Remain from the referendum. Once the principle is established that different arrangements are possible, Scotland would have every right to demand a seat at the table.
    Scotland's just a region, and a poor one at that.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,728
    @felix

    in order not to make the classic Leaver mistake of saying, usually in the same breath: "this is what people voted for" together with "there was no XXX option on the ballot paper, they just voted to leave; the rest is up to the government."
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    I'm roughly as characteristic as Mr. Smithson, who imagines that because "£1 bought 1.35 euros before EURef", "We are all a lot poorer". The royal "we" perhaps.

    Anyone who buys anything originally priced in Euros is paying more for it.

    That's a lot of people...
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,789
    Scott_P said:
    so we;d be no worse off than we are today
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Seen Chapman's output since this thread went up this morning? If it was me I'd stick up a new thread double quick and pretend this one never happened. Perhaps something on the merits of the various rival electoral systems?

    He sounds very much like Donald Trump.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,485
    Afternoon all :)

    Changing the subject slightly, fascinating to hear Trump and May's differing perspectives on violence and the "extreme" Right.

    The statues issue is hugely culturally symbolic in the southern United States and I get that - we are able to have statues of Charles I and Oliver Cromwell in London but then our Civil War was rather different to the American experience and occurred two centuries earlier.

    We now seem to have a new phrase in the political vocabulary - "moral equivalence". It's an interesting term and like all good buzzwords can mean whatever you want it to mean.

    May's comments about far Right groupings and our response to them were valid to a point - if someone (and it doesn't matter where they are on the spectrum) advocates the subversion of the democratic system and its overthrow through violence, all who purport to be supporters of democracy should stand four square in condemnation.

    When the BNP were active, I heard Conservative (as well as Labour and Lib Dem) supporters and activists condemn them and even though I'm not a Conservative, I stand four square behind any Conservative (or indeed anyone) defending democracy against those advocating violence and subversion whether politically, racially or religiously-motivated.

    Fascists (and indeed Marxists) despise democracy and for them it's the biggest obstacle to overcome - as they can't rule with the consent of the majority through the ballot box they are forced to use intimidation and violence to advance politically and that has to be resisted at all levels and especially within communities.

    So May is right but I think Trump is also right - when the language of debate turns from words to violence, no one side can claim the higher moral ground. Using violence to defend democracy cannot be justified - there is a rule of law and those who are sworn to uphold that law alone have the privilege to defend democracy via force and must only do so within the constraints of that rule of law. Driving a car at a crowd of people is palpably wrong but so is beating up journalists - it's not a question of "moral equivalence", both are acts of violent criminality pure and simple and both need to be dealt with by and within the law of the land.

    If Kessler or Cantwell came to London to debate, I'd be the first to defend their right to be heard as long as they didn't use that platform to incite violence or hatred which is against the law of the United Kingdom. They can argue their political case and have a right to do so just as those of us who are opposed to their thinking have a right to argue against them.

  • freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107
    I'm curious how all these illegals are going to get to Ireland
  • Scott_P said:

    Anyone who buys anything originally priced in Euros is paying more for it.

    That's a lot of people...
    If they've got a tracker mortgage, they're paying less for it.

    Etc.
  • chrisoxonchrisoxon Posts: 204



    I'm roughly as characteristic as Mr. Smithson, who imagines that because "£1 bought 1.35 euros before EURef", "We are all a lot poorer". The royal "we" perhaps.

    Quite. This is similar who pushed EU membership because of the elimination of roaming charges - what about all those who can't afford regular holidays?
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,991
    nunuone said:

    We now know most former ukip voters came from labour not the conservatives. Corbyn should be worried if nige makes a comeback.
    But that was when Theresa was dancing to Nigel's tune and acting as if he were her patron. If Nigel decides to turn upon his adopted daughter, as I suspect he will, then plenty of Tories will be happy to take his side (Tories prefer winners). This could get bloody.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    so we;d be no worse off than we are today

    We'll be much worse off, but at least we'll have taken back control impoverished ourselves for no gain...
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    "The past is never dead. It's not even past."

    https://twitter.com/civilrightsorg/status/897806238909693953

  • ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    Ian "rhyming slang" Dunt is dissatisfied? Well, there's a surprise.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,789
    Scott_P said:

    We'll be much worse off, but at least we'll have taken back control impoverished ourselves for no gain...
    Unlikley

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-4795400/Adriana-Lima-flashes-derriere-Victoria-s-Secret-shoot.html
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,485
    Amongst the froth of Brexit, something perhaps more worthy of debate and discussion:

    http://www.publicfinance.co.uk/news/2017/08/more-70k-care-homes-places-needed-2025-says-report?utm_source=Adestra&utm_medium=email&utm_term=

    To give her credit of sorts, May tried to get the ball rolling on this but her proposals weren't well received. The facts, according to that well known Lefty magazine The Lancet, tell a very different story.

    It's not just about care home places but managing the care of elderly people at home and recognising how, for example, giving family members paid time off work to care and support elderly relatives might be the new norm for inter-generational workplaces.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,197
    Are we really going to have another 18 months of this? It is beyond tedious. This site used to be my relaxation and an education but this is just boring and repetitive.

    Time for a break I think.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    TOPPING said:

    Bizarre response. You think inhibiting the movement of people, UK citizens, is a good thing?
    I think that all countries, not just us, should have full control of their own borders.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464

    Have you noticed much being said along those lines? The average Leaver is mostly being heard saying "thank goodness we have left the shackles of that evil empire". I haven't heard any talk about neighbourliness.
    No true, fair point. But I've put my future view forward at least.
  • Alice_AforethoughtAlice_Aforethought Posts: 772
    edited August 2017
    stodge said:

    When the BNP were active, I heard Conservative (as well as Labour and Lib Dem) supporters and activists condemn them and even though I'm not a Conservative, I stand four square behind any Conservative (or indeed anyone) defending democracy against those advocating violence and subversion whether politically, racially or religiously-motivated.

    Did the BNP actually advocate violence? I wasn't aware that they did. I thought they just voiced opinions that made people want to do violence to them; like walking through a crowd of Millwall supporters wearing a Sheffield United scarf or whatever.

    There were fellow travellers such as Combat 18 who certainly wanted a ruck. But IIRC they, and various "firms" of football thugs, had many members in common exactly because the point of gathering anywhere was the prospect of a ruck. The casus rucki was a mere detail.

    I recall film of anti-BNP and anti-NF demonstrators shouting "smash the National Front". If you actually wanted to defeat the NF politically I am not sure that assembling a side for a ruck is the best way. This leads me to suppose that the anti-NF bodies existed because they too wanted a ruck.

    Probably this should not be illegal. If mobs of consenting adult yobboes want to gather and fight, we should be taxing and regulating it, as some say we should do with drugs. The fights would at least make good TV and provide betting opportunities.
  • ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133

    Did the BNP actually advocate violence? I wasn't aware that they did. I thought they just voiced opinions that made people want to do violence to them; like walking through a crowd of Millwall supporters wearing a Sheffield United scarf or whatever.

    There were fellow travellers such as Combat 18 who certainly wanted a ruck. But IIRC they, and various "firms" of football thugs, had many members in common exactly because the point of gathering anywhere was the prospect of a ruck. The casus rucki was a mere detail.

    I recall film of anti-BNP and anti-NF demonstrators shouting "smash the National Front". If you actually wanted to defeat the NF politically I am not sure that assembling a side for a ruck is the best way. This leads me to suppose that the anti-NF bodies existed because they too wanted a ruck.

    Probably this should not be illegal. If mobs of consenting adult yobboes want to gather and fight, we should be taxing and regulating it, as some say we should do with drugs. The fights would at least make good TV and provide betting opportunities.
    https://twitter.com/ChrisRGun/status/896812177654337536
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    welshowl said:

    No true, fair point. But I've put my future view forward at least.
    I appreciate that. But unfortunately the EU isn't going to form its view of how Britain is going to proceed from posters on blogs. It is reasonably interpreting the mood music from Britain at present as one of surly insularity.

    I agree with you that the EU should be looking further ahead and that Britain failing to do so is no excuse for it not doing so either. Psychologically, however, it is easy to see why they might fall back on an entirely transactional approach to the current negotiations at a time when Britain is apparently doing the same.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,864
    GeoffM said:

    I think that all countries, not just us, should have full control of their own borders.
    A strict quota of Gibraltarians allowed residency in the UK?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,487
    Good afternoon, everyone.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    DavidL said:

    Are we really going to have another 18 months of this?

    No

    5 years minimum
  • chrisoxonchrisoxon Posts: 204
    Scott_P said:

    No

    5 years minimum
    I think @DavidL is more concerned about the quality of debate than the length of it...
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022

    Did the BNP actually advocate violence? I wasn't aware that they did. I thought they just voiced opinions that made people want to do violence to them; like walking through a crowd of Millwall supporters wearing a Sheffield United scarf or whatever.

    There were fellow travellers such as Combat 18 who certainly wanted a ruck. But IIRC they, and various "firms" of football thugs, had many members in common exactly because the point of gathering anywhere was the prospect of a ruck. The casus rucki was a mere detail.

    I recall film of anti-BNP and anti-NF demonstrators shouting "smash the National Front". If you actually wanted to defeat the NF politically I am not sure that assembling a side for a ruck is the best way. This leads me to suppose that the anti-NF bodies existed because they too wanted a ruck.

    Probably this should not be illegal. If mobs of consenting adult yobboes want to gather and fight, we should be taxing and regulating it, as some say we should do with drugs. The fights would at least make good TV and provide betting opportunities.
    Can we please have the 'Like' button back for comments like this one? ^^^ :D
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    edited August 2017
    Scrap that, James Chapman is out-Trumping Trump, at least in terms of pace. Channel 4 News has just been added to the rapidly-increasing list of bogeymen.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,789
    DavidL said:

    Are we really going to have another 18 months of this? It is beyond tedious. This site used to be my relaxation and an education but this is just boring and repetitive.

    Time for a break I think.

    Yes

    were getting staler than a 1 year old loaf

    you can pop back in 6 months and the thread wont have changed much
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,573
    Chappers now claiming Ch4 news have pulled an interview with him.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    A strict quota of Gibraltarians allowed residency in the UK?
    Eh? What are you dribbling about?
    We're British with full British passports.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    A strict quota of Gibraltarians allowed residency in the UK?

    Gibraltarians shouldn't be allowed to leave Gibraltar acoording to Geoff...
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,789

    Chappers now claiming Ch4 news have pulled an interview with him.

    maybe he should try the LES
  • freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107
    DavidL said:

    Are we really going to have another 18 months of this? It is beyond tedious. This site used to be my relaxation and an education but this is just boring and repetitive.

    Time for a break I think.

    Hate to say it and I know I sound flouncy but I'm with you. I'd be interested to see the number of regular contributors compared to a couple of years ago.

    Infantile, tedious and moronic.
  • Scrap that, James Chapman is out-Trumping Trump, at least in terms of pace. Channel 4 News has just been added to the rapidly-increasing list of bogeymen.

    When I said yesterday that Mr. Chapman was perhaps not doing himself any favours given he's out of a job, and our host corrected to me to say that he was in fact not out of a job, I now wonder if our host spoke too soon.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    GeoffM said:

    We're British with full British passports.

    We're EU citizens, with full EU passports, and you voted to take that away.

    Only fair you accept the same restrictions, right?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Yes

    were getting staler than a 1 year old loaf

    you can pop back in 6 months and the thread wont have changed much
    This is what you both voted for.

    Meanwhile, there are many important things happening in the world but Britain is far too absorbed with Brexit to be addressing them.

    Thanks chaps.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Infantile, tedious and moronic.

    Brexit in 4 words...
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,485


    Did the BNP actually advocate violence? I wasn't aware that they did. I thought they just voiced opinions that made people want to do violence to them; like walking through a crowd of Millwall supporters wearing a Sheffield United scarf or whatever.

    I didn't say the BNP themselves advocated violence and Nick Griffin was always trying to stay on the lawful side of the line.

    There were, and I was living in SE London at the time, any number of the "fellow travellers" for whom the journey from democratic discourse to "putting the boot in" was quite short.

    In the end, it was and is about provocation - I would contend a number of those who frequent social media are there less to debate and more to provoke. It is an invitation to and has created a generation of provocateurs who write to elicit a response rather than to discourse.
  • ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    edited August 2017

    Chappers now claiming Ch4 news have pulled an interview with him.

    image
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,698

    Now, tell me how you translate that into a communications strategy that's going to win hearts and minds with the negotiators on the other side of the table, who by an unhappy coincidence are being led by "arrogant unelected feckers overlording it in Brussels". I'm not sure that "we hate you, but don't worry we're going to try to bypass you to get the deal we want" is really going to produce the optimal result.
    I think bypassing them is the only way to get a deal that all 28 want. The EU negotiators need to negotiate on behalf of the other 27, not for their own self importance. Pressure from Paris, Berlin, etc. is probably the only way to get them to see sense.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,864

    I think bypassing them is the only way to get a deal that all 28 want. The EU negotiators need to negotiate on behalf of the other 27, not for their own self importance. Pressure from Paris, Berlin, etc. is probably the only way to get them to see sense.

    'Them' being the Irish presumably...
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    I think bypassing them is the only way to get a deal that all 28 want. The EU negotiators need to negotiate on behalf of the other 27, not for their own self importance. Pressure from Paris, Berlin, etc. is probably the only way to get them to see sense.
    And what makes you think that Paris, Berlin, etc. aren't generally supportive of how the EU is handling this? No credit given for wishful thinking, I'm afraid.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    When I said yesterday that Mr. Chapman was perhaps not doing himself any favours given he's out of a job, and our host corrected to me to say that he was in fact not out of a job, I now wonder if our host spoke too soon.
    I think JC is going to exit Bell Pottinger rather sooner than DD exits the cabinet.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,789

    This is what you both voted for.

    Meanwhile, there are many important things happening in the world but Britain is far too absorbed with Brexit to be addressing them.

    Thanks chaps.
    chortle

    I dont recall Remain standing on a "vote stay or we'll bore the tits off everyone"

    there are certainly more important things worldwide - 100,000 premature deaths from diesel fumes for instance - but PB has just become fixated with it's own internal squabble

    its daft since nobody on this board can do anything bar carping

    every day is now carpy diem
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    chortle

    I dont recall Remain standing on a "vote stay or we'll bore the tits off everyone"

    there are certainly more important things worldwide - 100,000 premature deaths from diesel fumes for instance - but PB has just become fixated with it's own internal squabble

    its daft since nobody on this board can do anything bar carping

    every day is now carpy diem
    This coat looks like it fits you :)
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,864

    And what makes you think that Paris, Berlin, etc. aren't generally supportive of how the EU is handling this? No credit given for wishful thinking, I'm afraid.
    One of the Brexit delusions is that everyone else must secretly feel the same way they do about the EU but is simply too cowed to be able to say so. Their expectation was that as soon as we pulled back the curtain, everyone would suddenly be free to express their true disdain.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,728
    edited August 2017
    DavidL said:

    Are we really going to have another 18 months of this? It is beyond tedious. This site used to be my relaxation and an education but this is just boring and repetitive.

    Time for a break I think.

    V strange response David, if I may say. Brexit is happening as we speak. Papers coming out, one today. All hugely important to us all and will shape our society for the next generation and beyond.

    Now of course there will be some fallback to pre-EURef rhetoric, we are all guilty of that, but we are in a fast-moving, dynamic, unpredictable political environment right now. Not the time to leave PB.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    chortle

    I dont recall Remain standing on a "vote stay or we'll bore the tits off everyone"

    there are certainly more important things worldwide - 100,000 premature deaths from diesel fumes for instance - but PB has just become fixated with it's own internal squabble

    its daft since nobody on this board can do anything bar carping

    every day is now carpy diem
    It's noteworthy that it's the Leavers who thought that Brexit would be jolly good fun who have got bored with the subject. Evidently it wasn't as jolly good fun as they thought it was going to be.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    TOPPING said:

    It changes from time to time and I think there are still some who dispute it.
    That's a fairer way of putting it - it definitely changes with supply side reform(about 4% at the moment I believe).

    Laffer is in a different league (my guess is around 46-49%) of precision...
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,728

    It's noteworthy that it's the Leavers who thought that Brexit would be jolly good fun who have got bored with the subject. Evidently it wasn't as jolly good fun as they thought it was going to be.
    The only tragedy being small children in Nantes, or Nantwich, could have told them that.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,821

    I'm roughly as characteristic as Mr. Smithson, who imagines that because "£1 bought 1.35 euros before EURef", "We are all a lot poorer". The royal "we" perhaps.
    I suspect the set of those whose overseas asset gains outweigh their relative currency impoverishment is a pretty small proportion of the population.
    Since the UK became a net overseas debtor rather than creditor (something which provided some cushion to previous devaluations), it's also true of the economy as a whole.

    So roughly, you and your bathroom(s) aren't.

  • GeoffM said:

    That's a good thing. Yes, they should be controlling their borders and their immigration properly/better, as should we.

    Nope, it's a bad thing. You are taking away rights. It might be a necessary trade-off, but that is different and not what you asked.

  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    It's noteworthy that it's the Leavers who thought that Brexit would be jolly good fun who have got bored with the subject. Evidently it wasn't as jolly good fun as they thought it was going to be.

    It's apparently difficult and complicated. Not what was advertised...
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,789
    TOPPING said:

    V strange response David, if I may say. Brexit is happening as we speak. Papers coming out, one today. All hugely important to us all and will shape our society for the next generation and beyond.

    Now of course there will be some fallback to pre-EURef rhetoric, we are all guilty of that, but we are in a fast-moving, dynamic, unpredictable political environment right now. Not the time to leave PB.
    Au contraire

    3 years of the Indy ref was more open minded than today

    at least the Nats had a sense of humour
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,789

    Nope, it's a bad thing. You are taking away rights. It might be a necessary trade-off, but that is different and not what you asked.

    Rights change all the time you gain some you lose some

  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464

    I appreciate that. But unfortunately the EU isn't going to form its view of how Britain is going to proceed from posters on blogs. It is reasonably interpreting the mood music from Britain at present as one of surly insularity.

    I agree with you that the EU should be looking further ahead and that Britain failing to do so is no excuse for it not doing so either. Psychologically, however, it is easy to see why they might fall back on an entirely transactional approach to the current negotiations at a time when Britain is apparently doing the same.
    In fairness, I think even Farage in his "you're not laughing now" speech post June 23rd in the European Parliament said something along the lines of "being friends, trading etc". And I think HMG's "deep and special relationship" is perfectly reasonable aim even if it needs fleshing out, clearly.

    However, I take your point, and I too don't really see the EU as "in the right headspace", to actually take that at face value at present. They are still collectively sore at having been rebuffed. Understandable sure, but not smart long term. It's in their and our interests to have a Canada to their USA, rather than a Japan to their China if I may strain analogies (no I am not claiming the EU is like China from a human rights or democracy standpoint, just trying to find general strained geopolitical equivalents).
  • And what makes you think that Paris, Berlin, etc. aren't generally supportive of how the EU is handling this? No credit given for wishful thinking, I'm afraid.

    The EU27 appointed Barnier to negotiate for them.

  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,698

    And what makes you think that Paris, Berlin, etc. aren't generally supportive of how the EU is handling this? No credit given for wishful thinking, I'm afraid.
    Our government should be ascertaining which areas each of the 27 are most concerned about, and then magnifying those concerns so that they then feel obliged to persuade the EU negotiators to change tack. 27 such approaches, and the EU position will become much more agreeable to the UK, and a sensible deal can be done.

    Yes, this is to an extent hope exceeding expectation. However, the alternative would be no deal, and other than Verhofstadt willy-waving for a couple of days, that would be to the detriment of all of europe.
  • MonkeysMonkeys Posts: 768

    About where it was 8 years ago.
    we 2008 now
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,487
    Mr. Glenn, it's a common flaw in human thinking to assume oneself to be the centre of normality and defining others in relation to oneself.

    Those who self-identify as EU citizens (in emotional rather than legal terms) are unfathomable to many people in this country.

    As I wrote earlier, I do think jargon is one of the reasons that political polarisation is occurring.
  • MonkeysMonkeys Posts: 768

    Mr. Glenn, it's a common flaw in human thinking to assume oneself to be the centre of normality and defining others in relation to oneself.

    Those who self-identify as EU citizens (in emotional rather than legal terms) are unfathomable to many people in this country.

    As I wrote earlier, I do think jargon is one of the reasons that political polarisation is occurring.

    Social media incentivises joining a tribe and punishes you for sitting it out.

    Centrism is finished?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,487
    Mr. Monkeys, social media echo chambers are also a significant factor. It's a little like a light version of the Peloponnesian War, where those who considered matters were seen as cowards of faint heart and those who charged in violently were seen as brave.

    The fact that we do have serious disagreements on PB is a very healthy sign.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,728

    Au contraire

    3 years of the Indy ref was more open minded than today

    at least the Nats had a sense of humour
    Fair enough. I'll be sorry to see you go though.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,789

    It's noteworthy that it's the Leavers who thought that Brexit would be jolly good fun who have got bored with the subject. Evidently it wasn't as jolly good fun as they thought it was going to be.
    I rather doubt that

    If you think a guy like DavidL is in it for the laughs there is no hope for you

    I'd say rather it's the serious people who are drifting off since

    1. there's more to life than Brexit
    2. any mature person can see the spin is part of the negotiations so should be taken with a large pinch of salt and safely passed over
    3. a site requires to be fresh and interesting to keep its reputation and attract new bloggers were 'about as free flowing as a WW1 trench system

    I may go back to composing limericks to liven things up
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,487
    Mr. Brooke, just over a week until F1 returns. That's bound to liven things up :D
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Scott_P said:

    It's apparently difficult and complicated. Not what was advertised...
    While it was being "advertised" you had every opportunity to go out and do something about it: canvassing and manning phone banks were not illegal activities, and might have made more of a difference than sitting and playing with your dingaling on the internet. I feel mildly guilty that all I did for Remain was to cast my vote for it. I wouldn't die of surprise to learn that you didn't even do that. And if internet dingalinging was ineffective then, it's sure as feck even less effective now.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,349
    edited August 2017

    It's noteworthy that it's the Leavers who thought that Brexit would be jolly good fun who have got bored with the subject. Evidently it wasn't as jolly good fun as they thought it was going to be.
    Not really. Campaigning for it was fun, now we have won it's a case of waiting and seeing what the government come up with. The people who lost and can't take it have taken upon themselves to come up with dozens of different ways to make it look like they didn't really lose, fair enough if it helps but it is painful to watch. Hence Leavers seem to leave PB!

  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180

    Scrap that, James Chapman is out-Trumping Trump, at least in terms of pace. Channel 4 News has just been added to the rapidly-increasing list of bogeymen.

    What - that hotbed of Brexit central?
  • currystarcurrystar Posts: 1,171
    I am amazed at how little chat there has been on here today about the unempolyment figures released today. |It is a truly remarkable achievement by the Government to acheive such low unemployment and they are getiing no credit for it. If the figure was 9.8% unemployed they would be getting murdered. It just shows in this modern world you never get any credit for good news just hammered for bad news. In fact today the figures have been disected in an attempt to find some bad news in them.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180

    maybe he should try the LES
    I'm sure he'd be offered a thread header on a well known political blogging site not a million miles away. How big is the legal action fund?
  • Rights change all the time you gain some you lose some

    You do, but that doesn't make it OK. Of course, you'll be fine as you have an Irish passport or at least the opportunity to acquire one. So that's good news, at least.

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,728
    currystar said:

    I am amazed at how little chat there has been on here today about the unempolyment figures released today. |It is a truly remarkable achievement by the Government to acheive such low unemployment and they are getiing no credit for it. If the figure was 9.8% unemployed they would be getting murdered. It just shows in this modern world you never get any credit for good news just hammered for bad news. In fact today the figures have been disected in an attempt to find some bad news in them.

    I believe we touched on it in the context of the potential inflationary pressure once the foreigners have been sent home.
  • AllanAllan Posts: 262
    Ishmael_Z said:

    While it was being "advertised" you had every opportunity to go out and do something about it: canvassing and manning phone banks were not illegal activities, and might have made more of a difference than sitting and playing with your dingaling on the internet. I feel mildly guilty that all I did for Remain was to cast my vote for it. I wouldn't die of surprise to learn that you didn't even do that. And if internet dingalinging was ineffective then, it's sure as feck even less effective now.
    Did Mr Scott post more than 10,000 times on here rather than go out door knocking?
  • AllanAllan Posts: 262
    TOPPING said:

    I believe we touched on it in the context of the potential inflationary pressure once the foreigners have been sent home.
    Inflationary on wages, deflationary on housing costs.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,789

    You do, but that doesn't make it OK. Of course, you'll be fine as you have an Irish passport or at least the opportunity to acquire one. So that's good news, at least.

    Ive had an Irish passport for over 20 years, Brexit has nothing to do with it.

    Brexit was totally avoidable if the Westminster politicians had done their job right and I dont single out any one party in that, They all ignored the signs underneath them with that old mantra "theyve nowhere else to go". Probably the worst piece of politcal brinkmanship of the modern era.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,728
    Allan said:

    Inflationary on wages, deflationary on housing costs.
    I thought all immigrants were supposed to be living 10 to a room?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,487
    Mr. Brooke, indeed. Blair threw away half the rebate, Brown threw away vetoes whilst simultaneously discarding a manifesto promise, and Cameron ran a campaign that was the referendum equivalent of May's electioneering.

  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Allan said:

    Did Mr Scott post more than 10,000 times on here rather than go out door knocking?
    Very possibly, I am afraid. The only people here who claim (perfectly credibly) to have canvassed are invariably Leavers.
  • Ive had an Irish passport for over 20 years, Brexit has nothing to do with it.

    Brexit was totally avoidable if the Westminster politicians had done their job right and I dont single out any one party in that, They all ignored the signs underneath them with that old mantra "theyve nowhere else to go". Probably the worst piece of politcal brinkmanship of the modern era.

    Good news you don't lose any rights as a result of Brexit. Totally agree we're leaving because our politicians are gutless tacticians.

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,235

    Scrap that, James Chapman is out-Trumping Trump, at least in terms of pace. Channel 4 News has just been added to the rapidly-increasing list of bogeymen.

    Chapman is the alt-centre.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    TOPPING said:

    I thought all immigrants were supposed to be living 10 to a room?
    Does that matter? Unless they are each paying less than 10% of the going rate for single occupancy of the room they are still pushing housing costs up, surely.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,698
    Pulpstar said:

    Chapman is the alt-centre.
    About time he control-alt-deleted his Twitter account.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,487
    Mr. Observer, partly agree, but there is/was a genuine problem with the ever increasing integration of the EU. Not unlike foreign aid spending, it was something the cosy political class all agreed was a good idea, and the electorate did not. That shouldn't be dismissed because recent PMs have all shown themselves more interested in giving things away to the EU than taking things back for Britain.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,339
    GeoffM said:

    They aren't "rights" in any fundamental way like free speech or self defence. They are bureaucratic inventions.

    I positively voted to reject those particular bits of paperwork. Nobody is "stripping" me of anything.
    You voted to take them away from other people. Why?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,698
    currystar said:

    I am amazed at how little chat there has been on here today about the unempolyment figures released today. |It is a truly remarkable achievement by the Government to acheive such low unemployment and they are getiing no credit for it. If the figure was 9.8% unemployed they would be getting murdered. It just shows in this modern world you never get any credit for good news just hammered for bad news. In fact today the figures have been disected in an attempt to find some bad news in them.

    Low unemployment combined with below-inflation pay rises does not compute. All my PPE economics* graphs indicate that the two are mutually exclusive. It suggests that real levels of unemployment/underemployment are much higher than the official figures say.



    *Maybe in a full-fat economics degree you get to see more complicated graphs?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    currystar said:

    I am amazed at how little chat there has been on here today about the unempolyment figures released today. |It is a truly remarkable achievement by the Government to acheive such low unemployment and they are getiing no credit for it. If the figure was 9.8% unemployed they would be getting murdered. It just shows in this modern world you never get any credit for good news just hammered for bad news. In fact today the figures have been disected in an attempt to find some bad news in them.

    Yes, it is truly remarkable, especially given the big increase in the minimum wage and Brexit uncertainties.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    edited August 2017
    dr_spyn said:
    "I know where every Bell Pottinger body is buried and I shall exhume them all one by one" is what I would be thinking if I were a BP partner, and BP bodies are legion (little local difficulty in ZA at the moment). Plus Chappers thinks people's drink and adultery habits are fair game, and I see no reason to think BP partners underperform their cohort in those departments.
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138
    Dura_Ace said:

    You voted to take them away from other people. Why?
    Perhaps we ought to strip Gibraltarians of their right to hold a British passport?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,487
    Mr. Clipp, even as a silly comment, that is a silly comment.
This discussion has been closed.