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Very petty, but more than a little funny.GIN1138 said:Er... (About JRM I think)
https://twitter.com/jameschappers/status/8960119850280919060 -
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Yesterday James Chapman was claiming the aim was to have another referendum in 2019 to overturn Brexit.
Now he is saying they want to overturn Brexit without another referendum...
https://twitter.com/jameschappers/status/895989690725130240
Clearly he is just making all this up as he goes along.
Journalists taking this seriously are being sold a pup... There is no "plan" being hatched on a Greek Island just a loner who has got too much time on his hands and had too much sun and Sangria...0 -
My first guiding principle is this: willing and active cooperation between independent sovereign states is the best way to build a successful European Community.foxinsoxuk said:
It depends which period of Maggies career. For most of her political life she was pro EU, and actively campaigned for single market inc FOM, and EU expansion to the East.
To try to suppress nationhood and concentrate power at the centre of a European conglomerate would be highly damaging and would jeopardise the objectives we seek to achieve.
Europe will be stronger precisely because it has France as France, Spain as Spain, Britain as Britain, each with its own customs, traditions and identity. It would be folly to try to fit them into some sort of identikit European personality.
Some of the founding fathers of the Community thought that the United States of America might be its model.
But the whole history of America is quite different from Europe.
People went there to get away from the intolerance and constraints of life in Europe.
They sought liberty and opportunity; and their strong sense of purpose has, over two centuries, helped to create a new unity and pride in being American, just as our pride lies in being British or Belgian or Dutch or German.
I am the first to say that on many great issues the countries of Europe should try to speak with a single voice.
I want to see us work more closely on the things we can do better together than alone.
Europe is stronger when we do so, whether it be in trade, in defence or in our relations with the rest of the world.
But working more closely together does not require power to be centralised in Brussels or decisions to be taken by an appointed bureaucracy.
Indeed, it is ironic that just when those countries such as the Soviet Union, which have tried to run everything from the centre, are learning that success depends on dispersing power and decisions away from the centre, there are some in the Community who seem to want to move in the opposite direction.
We have not successfully rolled back the frontiers of the state in Britain, only to see them re-imposed at a European level with a European super-state exercising a new dominance from Brussels.
Certainly we want to see Europe more united and with a greater sense of common purpose.
But it must be in a way which preserves the different traditions, parliamentary powers and sense of national pride in one's own country; for these have been the source of Europe's vitality through the centuries.
- M. H. Thatcher, The Bruges Speech, 20/9/1988.0 -
This in relation to Stuart Jackson (EX-MP) formally of this Parish?
https://twitter.com/jameschappers/status/895978929093259264
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I think the comparison trivialises Maduro's actions. Calling a fresh election because he didn't like the last result is not especially dictatorial behaviour - it's entirely clear that the Conservatives would do exactly that tomorrow if they were confident they'd win. Tsk, one might say, but it's not unprecedented. Arresting and shooting opponents is what makes most of us on all sides turn against Maduro.ThreeQuidder said:Democracy requires that the decisions taken by the people are implemented by the politicians.
The idea that the politicians can say to the people "you got it wrong, vote again" is as anti-democratic as Maduro saying "you got it wrong in the 2015 National Assembly election" and following it as he has.
Saying "There are new facts, does this change your view?" is a not unreasonable question. But premature at this stage.
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Yeah, after she lost her marbles and political nous she went Eurosceptic. In her prime she was pro EU.Sunil_Prasannan said:
My first guiding principle is this: willing and active cooperation between independent sovereign states is the best way to build a successful European Community.foxinsoxuk said:
It depends which period of Maggies career. For most of her political life she was pro EU, and actively campaigned for single market inc FOM, and EU expansion to the East.
To try to suppress nationhood and concentrate power at the centre of a European conglomerate would be highly damaging and would jeopardise the objectives we seek to achieve.
Europe will be stronger precisely because it has France as France, Spain as Spain, Britain as Britain, each with its own customs, traditions and identity. It would be folly to try to fit them into some sort of identikit European personality.
Some of the founding fathers of the Community thought that the United States of America might be its model.
But the whole history of America is quite different from Europe.
People went there to get away from the intolerance and constraints of life in Europe.
They sought liberty and opportunity; and their strong sense of purpose has, over two centuries, helped to create a new unity and pride in being American, just as our pride lies in being British or Belgian or Dutch or German.
I am the first to say that on many great issues the countries of Europe should try to speak with a single voice.
I want to see us work more closely on the things we can do better together than alone.
Europe is stronger when we do so, whether it be in trade, in defence or in our relations with the rest of the world.
But working more closely together does not require power to be centralised in Brussels or decisions to be taken by an appointed bureaucracy.
Indeed, it is ironic that just when those countries such as the Soviet Union, which have tried to run everything from the centre, are learning that success depends on dispersing power and decisions away from the centre, there are some in the Community who seem to want to move in the opposite direction.
We have not successfully rolled back the frontiers of the state in Britain, only to see them re-imposed at a European level with a European super-state exercising a new dominance from Brussels.
Certainly we want to see Europe more united and with a greater sense of common purpose.
But it must be in a way which preserves the different traditions, parliamentary powers and sense of national pride in one's own country; for these have been the source of Europe's vitality through the centuries.
- M. H. Thatcher, The Bruges Speech, 20/9/1988.
Cracking start to the PL...0 -
She was still PM in '88foxinsoxuk said:
Yeah, after she lost her marbles and political nous she went Eurosceptic. In her prime she was pro EU.Sunil_Prasannan said:
My first guiding principle is this: willing and active cooperation between independent sovereign states is the best way to build a successful European Community.foxinsoxuk said:
It depends which period of Maggies career. For most of her political life she was pro EU, and actively campaigned for single market inc FOM, and EU expansion to the East.
To try to suppress nationhood and concentrate power at the centre of a European conglomerate would be highly damaging and would jeopardise the objectives we seek to achieve.
Europe will be stronger precisely because it has France as France, Spain as Spain, Britain as Britain, each with its own customs, traditions and identity. It would be folly to try to fit them into some sort of identikit European personality.
Some of the founding fathers of the Community thought that the United States of America might be its model.
But the whole history of America is quite different from Europe.
People went there to get away from the intolerance and constraints of life in Europe.
They sought liberty and opportunity; and their strong sense of purpose has, over two centuries, helped to create a new unity and pride in being American, just as our pride lies in being British or Belgian or Dutch or German.
I am the first to say that on many great issues the countries of Europe should try to speak with a single voice.
I want to see us work more closely on the things we can do better together than alone.
Europe is stronger when we do so, whether it be in trade, in defence or in our relations with the rest of the world.
But working more closely together does not require power to be centralised in Brussels or decisions to be taken by an appointed bureaucracy.
Indeed, it is ironic that just when those countries such as the Soviet Union, which have tried to run everything from the centre, are learning that success depends on dispersing power and decisions away from the centre, there are some in the Community who seem to want to move in the opposite direction.
We have not successfully rolled back the frontiers of the state in Britain, only to see them re-imposed at a European level with a European super-state exercising a new dominance from Brussels.
Certainly we want to see Europe more united and with a greater sense of common purpose.
But it must be in a way which preserves the different traditions, parliamentary powers and sense of national pride in one's own country; for these have been the source of Europe's vitality through the centuries.
- M. H. Thatcher, The Bruges Speech, 20/9/1988.
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Shortly to be fragged by her own sideSunil_Prasannan said:
She was still PM in '88foxinsoxuk said:
Yeah, after she lost her marbles and political nous she went Eurosceptic. In her prime she was pro EU.Sunil_Prasannan said:
My first guiding principle is this: willing and active cooperation between independent sovereign states is the best way to build a successful European Community.foxinsoxuk said:
It depends which period of Maggies career. For most of her political life she was pro EU, and actively campaigned for single market inc FOM, and EU expansion to the East.
To try to suppress nationhood and concentrate power at the centre of a European conglomerate would be highly damaging and would jeopardise the objectives we seek to achieve.
Europe will be stronger precisely because it has France as France, Spain as Spain, Britain as Britain, each with its own customs, traditions and identity. It would be folly to try to fit them into some sort of identikit European personality.
Some of the founding fathers of the Community thought that the United States of America might be its model.
But the whole history of America
People went there to get away from the intolerance and constraints of life in Europe.
They sought liberty and opportunity; and their strong sense of purpose has, over two centuries, helped to create a new unity and pride in being American, just as our pride lies in being British or Belgian or Dutch or German.
I am the first to say that on many great issues the countries of Europe should try to speak with a single voice.
I want to see us work more closely on the things we can do better together than alone.
Europe is stronger when we do so, whether it be in trade, in defence or in our relations with the rest of the world.
But working more closely together does not require power to be centralised in Brussels or decisions to be taken by an appointed bureaucracy.
Indeed, it is ironic that just when those countries such as the Soviet Union, which have tried to run everything from the centre, are learning that success depends on dispersing power and decisions away from the centre, there are some in the Community who seem to want to move in the opposite direction.
We have not successfully rolled back the frontiers of the state in Britain, only to see them re-imposed at a European level with a European super-state exercising a new dominance from Brussels.
Certainly we want to see Europe more united and with a greater sense of common purpose.
But it must be in a way which preserves the different traditions, parliamentary powers and sense of national pride in one's own country; for these have been the source of Europe's vitality through the centuries.
- M. H. Thatcher, The Bruges Speech, 20/9/1988. 0 -
If China hadn't intervened across the Yalu River in Autumn 1950, Korea today would be a peaceful, united, democratic country.JosiasJessop said:
I think that's a really poor analysis of the situation. NK threatens China as well: Earlier in the year they threatened China with 'grave consequences' over their lack of recent support. Then there's the fear China has of millions of refugees crossing the border if NK were to fail, and the other risks of having NK next door.surbiton said:
From the Chinese viewpoint, why should they remove Kim ? They don't want a pro Western country with a land border. The nukes are inconvenient but Kim would not be hitting China with those.Luckyguy1983 said:I suppose what Trump is really doing is piling pressure on China to make Kim back down, or get rid of him. He is actually quite well-positioned in every possible outcome of this situation (provided he has a good bunker for the 'nuclear armageddon' scenario.
It's possible that China would see a unified, westernised Korea sans American troops more favourably than the status quo of an unstable NK and an SK with massive numbers of American forces near their borders.0 -
Indeed. There is virtually zero change of Merkel forming a coalition with the AfD.surbiton said:
No. She does not. The AfD and the SPD and the Left will not vote on the same sideHYUFD said:
Merkel needs the AfD as well as the FDP to get a right of centre coalition over 50% so a CDU SPD coalition is likely to continueAndyJS said:Latest German poll:
CDU: 40%
SPD: 24%
Greens: 8%
Left: 8%
FDP: 8%
AfD: 8%
Others: 4%
http://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/
Anecdotal: I was visiting my elderly German mother-in-law last week when the conversation turned to politics. She normally votes CDU nationally and SPD locally, though she has occasionally voted Green and FDP. She thinks Merkel is wonderful and will definitely be voting CDU this time too. However, she views the AfD with something close to revulsion, and would be absolutely horrified if they were in government. She'd sooner see the Left in power than the AfD, and that's saying something for someone who absconded from the East in the 60s. She's hoping for a CDU/CSU/FDP coalition, but she'd be OK with a continuation of the grand coalition.0 -
If the Americans hadn't intervened shortly beforehand, it would be a united People's Democratic country!Sunil_Prasannan said:
If China hadn't intervened across the Yalu River in Autumn 1950, Korea today would be a peaceful, united, democratic country.JosiasJessop said:
I think that's a really poor analysis of the situation. NK threatens China as well: Earlier in the year they threatened China with 'grave consequences' over their lack of recent support. Then there's the fear China has of millions of refugees crossing the border if NK were to fail, and the other risks of having NK next door.surbiton said:
From the Chinese viewpoint, why should they remove Kim ? They don't want a pro Western country with a land border. The nukes are inconvenient but Kim would not be hitting China with those.Luckyguy1983 said:I suppose what Trump is really doing is piling pressure on China to make Kim back down, or get rid of him. He is actually quite well-positioned in every possible outcome of this situation (provided he has a good bunker for the 'nuclear armageddon' scenario.
It's possible that China would see a unified, westernised Korea sans American troops more favourably than the status quo of an unstable NK and an SK with massive numbers of American forces near their borders.0 -
Her Bruges speech is often misinterpreted and its anti-socialist message confused for anti-federalism.foxinsoxuk said:Shortly to be fragged by her own side
Brexiteers would do well to absorb the meaning of this passage from the same speech:
Britain does not dream of some cosy, isolated existence on the fringes of the European Community. Our destiny is in Europe, as part of the Community.
That is not to say that our future lies only in Europe, but nor does that of France or Spain or, indeed, of any other member.
The Community is not an end in itself.
Nor is it an institutional device to be constantly modified according to the dictates of some abstract intellectual concept.
Nor must it be ossified by endless regulation.
The European Community is a practical means by which Europe can ensure the future prosperity and security of its people in a world in which there are many other powerful nations and groups of nations.
We Europeans cannot afford to waste our energies on internal disputes or arcane institutional debates.0 -
While there is no doubt it was the increasingly social democrat stance of Europe allied to her personal dislike of many European officials - notably Delors - that informed her later attitude, I am very surprised you think that speech is not anti-federalist in tone. In fact, the only way it could have been more openly anti-federalist is if it had started, 'Listen, Napoleon Delors...'williamglenn said:Her Bruges speech is often misinterpreted and its anti-socialist message confused for anti-federalism.
Brexiteers would do well to absorb the meaning of this passage from the same speech:
Britain does not dream of some cosy, isolated existence on the fringes of the European Community. Our destiny is in Europe, as part of the Community.
That is not to say that our future lies only in Europe, but nor does that of France or Spain or, indeed, of any other member.
The Community is not an end in itself.
Nor is it an institutional device to be constantly modified according to the dictates of some abstract intellectual concept.
Nor must it be ossified by endless regulation.
The European Community is a practical means by which Europe can ensure the future prosperity and security of its people in a world in which there are many other powerful nations and groups of nations.
We Europeans cannot afford to waste our energies on internal disputes or arcane institutional debates.0 -
I would expect better from a medical professional.foxinsoxuk said:
Yeah, after she lost her marbles and political nous she went Eurosceptic. In her prime she was pro EU.
Cracking start to the PL...
Thatcher was eurosceptic long before the onset of her dementia.0 -
Parliament is subservient to the people.surbiton said:
You don't decide. Parliament does. Remember Parliament is sovereign. You lot told us that. If Parliament wants a referendum every week, that would be legal too ! After all, you don't have to vote.ThreeQuidder said:
Depends when you do it. After we have implemented the Leave vote, a Rejoin referendum will be democratically legitimate.surbiton said:
Absolutely. Democracy also means that the same people can change their minds through another legal referendum. The clock did not stop on 23rd June 2016.ThreeQuidder said:
There is no such idea. But democracy requires that the decisions taken by the people are implemented by the politicians.AlastairMeeks said:
No it's not exactly the same. The public decided to vote to sail down a river. If you see Niagara ahead, it is not ignoring the demands of the little people for the crew to take matters into their own hands.ThreeQuidder said:
That is exactly saying that the demands of the little people should be ignored as the little people have demanded that we Leave the EU.AlastairMeeks said:
Yes, quite. Not arguing that the demands of the little people should be ignored. Arguing that Brexit is a catastrophe and the democratically elected representatives who have formed the same view should come together to seek to avert it.ThreeQuidder said:
https://twitter.com/jameschappers/status/895014262804033536AlastairMeeks said:
That is not his argument at all.ThreeQuidder said:
His argument, such as it is, is that the demands of the little people should be ignored. There's no engaging with that.AlastairMeeks said:
They can't engage with his arguments so they threaten him with a doing-over by the Daily Mail and post nude pictures of him online.williamglenn said:
Even on an issue like this they play the man not the ball. Telling.AlastairMeeks said:One loony Leaver quoting another loony Leaver's tweets: Brexception.
https://twitter.com/jameschappers/status/896044435104051204
I should point out that personally I don't agree with James Chapman. But this idea that democracy stopped on 23 June 2016 is ridiculous.
The idea that the politicians can say to the people "you got it wrong, vote again" is as anti-democratic as Maduro saying "you got it wrong in the 2015 National Assembly election" and following it as he has.
What is undemocratic about asking the people again ?
Or should be.0 -
It is a good passage but unfortunately future Europhiles ensured that the Community was viewed as an end in itself. As such her vision became redundant as it was not available to us, we could either except that Community or choose our own future. I put faith in ourselves.williamglenn said:
Her Bruges speech is often misinterpreted and its anti-socialist message confused for anti-federalism.foxinsoxuk said:Shortly to be fragged by her own side
Brexiteers would do well to absorb the meaning of this passage from the same speech:
Britain does not dream of some cosy, isolated existence on the fringes of the European Community. Our destiny is in Europe, as part of the Community.
That is not to say that our future lies only in Europe, but nor does that of France or Spain or, indeed, of any other member.
The Community is not an end in itself.
Nor is it an institutional device to be constantly modified according to the dictates of some abstract intellectual concept.
Nor must it be ossified by endless regulation.
The European Community is a practical means by which Europe can ensure the future prosperity and security of its people in a world in which there are many other powerful nations and groups of nations.
We Europeans cannot afford to waste our energies on internal disputes or arcane institutional debates.0 -
I was referring to her megalomania after the 87 election, her dementia came later.MP_SE2 said:
I would expect better from a medical professional.foxinsoxuk said:
Yeah, after she lost her marbles and political nous she went Eurosceptic. In her prime she was pro EU.
Cracking start to the PL...
Thatcher was eurosceptic long before the onset of her dementia.0 -
Wacko Chapo more like.GIN1138 said:This in relation to Stuart Jackson (EX-MP) formally of this Parish?
https://twitter.com/jameschappers/status/8959789290932592640 -
Presumably it was to avert that horror that they did intervene.Sunil_Prasannan said:
If China hadn't intervened across the Yalu River in Autumn 1950, Korea today would be a peaceful, united, democratic country.JosiasJessop said:
I think that's a really poor analysis of the situation. NK threatens China as well: Earlier in the year they threatened China with 'grave consequences' over their lack of recent support. Then there's the fear China has of millions of refugees crossing the border if NK were to fail, and the other risks of having NK next door.surbiton said:
From the Chinese viewpoint, why should they remove Kim ? They don't want a pro Western country with a land border. The nukes are inconvenient but Kim would not be hitting China with those.Luckyguy1983 said:I suppose what Trump is really doing is piling pressure on China to make Kim back down, or get rid of him. He is actually quite well-positioned in every possible outcome of this situation (provided he has a good bunker for the 'nuclear armageddon' scenario.
It's possible that China would see a unified, westernised Korea sans American troops more favourably than the status quo of an unstable NK and an SK with massive numbers of American forces near their borders.0 -
What is on display is a total lack of judgement. He could have put forward his views in a measured and - dare I say it - statesmanlike fashion and have been given the chance of hearing. Instead he is just lashing out in all directions and in the process making his cause appear ridiculous.GIN1138 said:James Chapman's Twitter is a complete car crash today...
The man is totally unhinged!
I expect serious Remoaners will want dissociate themselves from him. He is certainly the very last person you would want to launch a new party!0 -
It's not just Chapman who has suggested applying VAT to private school fees - Gove and Corbyn too...Alice_Aforethought said:
They should allow access to facilities, but charge the going rate for it.DavidL said:
Didn't know that. Much obliged. Makes the argument that they should be denied chartable status even more bizarre when the benefits are so modest anyway. Surprised more schools have not just said fine and no, you will not have access to our facilities at all nor will we be sending any staff that we pay to other schools to help out.prh47bridge said:
No they can't. They repeatedly complain about that to the government. See https://www.isc.co.uk/about-isc/school-charities-and-tax/ (the section headed Independent Schools and Tax) for details.DavidL said:
As charities I think they can recoup that.ThreeQuidder said:
All businesses pay VAT on their taxable purchases...prh47bridge said:
Just to add, independent schools already pay VAT on supplies.prh47bridge said:
He can because it is not illegal under EU rules. The education exemption only applies to "bodies governed by public law having such as their aim or by other organisations recognised by the Member State concerned as having similar objects". Private schools are not governed by public law as they do not get most of their funding from the state. So all the government has to do is decide not to recognise private schools as having similar objects and they can charge VAT.boulay said:FPT rottenborough mentioned that Chapman wanted to charge VAT on private school fees. This is illegal under EU rules as it bans the charging of VAT on education provision. Can't have it both ways....
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4258440/Fury-Gove-s-calls-20-VAT-private-school-fees.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/private-schools-pay-tax-michael-gove-vat-boost-state-education-charity-status-funding-mic-a7597126.html
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/apr/05/fund-free-school-meals-jeremy-corbyn-add-vat-private-education-fees0 -
Is the "Democrat" name supposed to be ironic?0
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I suppose the PC rules go out the window when it comes to Thatcherfoxinsoxuk said:
I was referring to her megalomania after the 87 election, her dementia came later.MP_SE2 said:
I would expect better from a medical professional.foxinsoxuk said:
Yeah, after she lost her marbles and political nous she went Eurosceptic. In her prime she was pro EU.
Cracking start to the PL...
Thatcher was eurosceptic long before the onset of her dementia.
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Hasn't Maduro done something much worse than just call another election? He called another election to create a new legislative body, which will essentially grab many of the powers of the opposition-led National Assembly.NickPalmer said:
I think the comparison trivialises Maduro's actions. Calling a fresh election because he didn't like the last result is not especially dictatorial behaviour - it's entirely clear that the Conservatives would do exactly that tomorrow if they were confident they'd win. Tsk, one might say, but it's not unprecedented. Arresting and shooting opponents is what makes most of us on all sides turn against Maduro.ThreeQuidder said:Democracy requires that the decisions taken by the people are implemented by the politicians.
The idea that the politicians can say to the people "you got it wrong, vote again" is as anti-democratic as Maduro saying "you got it wrong in the 2015 National Assembly election" and following it as he has.
Saying "There are new facts, does this change your view?" is a not unreasonable question. But premature at this stage.
Before this, the government-led Supreme Court (apparently part of the most corrupt judicial system in the world) tried to strip the National Assembly of all its powers.
That seems remarkably dictatorial.0 -
I think you are right PeterC. As someone who would be open to a new 3rd party I cannot think of any reason why Chapman should be the instigator of it. I had never heard of him before this week. His Wikipedia summary says it all really: "James Chapman is a British PR executive, a former UK Government adviser, and former political editor of the Daily Mail."PeterC said:
What is on display is a total lack of judgement. He could have put forward his views in a measured and - dare I say it - statesmanlike fashion and have been given the chance of hearing. Instead he is just lashing out in all directions and in the process making his cause appear ridiculous.GIN1138 said:James Chapman's Twitter is a complete car crash today...
The man is totally unhinged!
I expect serious Remoaners will want dissociate themselves from him. He is certainly the very last person you would want to launch a new party!
I assume the only reason he is getting such publicity now is because of his former role as Davis's Chief of Staff at the DEEU.
It's going to need someone with a bit more gravitas and depth to kick this off properly I think. David Miliband maybe?0 -
I struggle to see any reason for either main party to agree to this. They have the tools (deselection, etc) to require 'Our way or the highway', why wouldn't they?0
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As Liam Fox said in the debate on the referendum bill:RobD said:Is the "Democrat" name supposed to be ironic?
"Some of us still bear the scars of 1992. That is why we must not rush into the referendum. We must ensure that we have adequate debate and that people do not feel that they have been bounced, or the result will not be as binding as we would like it to be."
He then joined a campaign committee that pushed out messaging like this. Can he be surprised that the result is not as binding as he would have liked it to be?
https://twitter.com/vote_leave/status/7446122596038164480 -
I'd do a better job than both for £115k.GIN1138 said:This in relation to Stuart Jackson (EX-MP) formally of this Parish?
https://twitter.com/jameschappers/status/895978929093259264
That's way more than the civil servants at DexEU get paid.0 -
Bollocks. The election was a lesson in that.NickPalmer said:
I think the comparison trivialises Maduro's actions. Calling a fresh election because he didn't like the last result is not especially dictatorial behaviour - it's entirely clear that the Conservatives would do exactly that tomorrow if they were confident they'd win. Tsk, one might say, but it's not unprecedented. Arresting and shooting opponents is what makes most of us on all sides turn against Maduro.ThreeQuidder said:Democracy requires that the decisions taken by the people are implemented by the politicians.
The idea that the politicians can say to the people "you got it wrong, vote again" is as anti-democratic as Maduro saying "you got it wrong in the 2015 National Assembly election" and following it as he has.
Saying "There are new facts, does this change your view?" is a not unreasonable question. But premature at this stage.
The Tories wouldn't call an election tomorrow if they were on 55% and Labour on 20%, now.0 -
The deeply personal attacks he's launching on those with whom he has political disagreements speak far more about him than them.GIN1138 said:James Chapman's Twitter is a complete car crash today...
The man is totally unhinged!0 -
They might. What they wouldn't do is assume those figures could be counted on and run an entirely negative campaign.Casino_Royale said:
Bollocks. The election was a lesson in that.NickPalmer said:
I think the comparison trivialises Maduro's actions. Calling a fresh election because he didn't like the last result is not especially dictatorial behaviour - it's entirely clear that the Conservatives would do exactly that tomorrow if they were confident they'd win. Tsk, one might say, but it's not unprecedented. Arresting and shooting opponents is what makes most of us on all sides turn against Maduro.ThreeQuidder said:Democracy requires that the decisions taken by the people are implemented by the politicians.
The idea that the politicians can say to the people "you got it wrong, vote again" is as anti-democratic as Maduro saying "you got it wrong in the 2015 National Assembly election" and following it as he has.
Saying "There are new facts, does this change your view?" is a not unreasonable question. But premature at this stage.
The Tories wouldn't call an election tomorrow if they were on 55% and Labour on 20%, now.
With a more positive campaign, more positive manifesto and a party leader that bothered to show up to the debates the rsulr would have been different.0 -
The obstacles are formiddable, and that is without there being much evidence of any popular demand for a new centre party, or any taking account of the fact that there already is one in the form of the LibDems.Benpointer said:
I think you are right PeterC. As someone who would be open to a new 3rd party I cannot think of any reason why Chapman should be the instigator of it. I had never heard of him before this week. His Wikipedia summary says it all really: "James Chapman is a British PR executive, a former UK Government adviser, and former political editor of the Daily Mail."PeterC said:
What is on display is a total lack of judgement. He could have put forward his views in a measured and - dare I say it - statesmanlike fashion and have been given the chance of hearing. Instead he is just lashing out in all directions and in the process making his cause appear ridiculous.GIN1138 said:James Chapman's Twitter is a complete car crash today...
The man is totally unhinged!
I expect serious Remoaners will want dissociate themselves from him. He is certainly the very last person you would want to launch a new party!
I assume the only reason he is getting such publicity now is because of his former role as Davis's Chief of Staff at the DEEU.
It's going to need someone with a bit more gravitas and depth to kick this off properly I think. David Miliband maybe?
In 1981 four heavyweight politicians took the plunge to launch the SDP. The stars were aligned much better then, yet even in alliance with the Liberals the venture was brutally treated by FPTP. This time there will need to be a lot more than ex-SPADs on twitter. Several heavyweights from both main parties will be essential to attact any sustained attention. The only problem is that I'm not sure that we do political heavyweights anymore.0 -
Casino_Royale said:
..attacks he's launching on those with whom he has political disagreements speak far more about him than them...
PeterC said:...Remoaners...
0 -
Forget it. The Tories won't call an election now until the Parliament times out.Philip_Thompson said:
They might. What they wouldn't do is assume those figures could be counted on and run an entirely negative campaign.Casino_Royale said:
Bollocks. The election was a lesson in that.NickPalmer said:
I think the comparison trivialises Maduro's actions. Calling a fresh election because he didn't like the last result is not especially dictatorial behaviour - it's entirely clear that the Conservatives would do exactly that tomorrow if they were confident they'd win. Tsk, one might say, but it's not unprecedented. Arresting and shooting opponents is what makes most of us on all sides turn against Maduro.ThreeQuidder said:Democracy requires that the decisions taken by the people are implemented by the politicians.
The idea that the politicians can say to the people "you got it wrong, vote again" is as anti-democratic as Maduro saying "you got it wrong in the 2015 National Assembly election" and following it as he has.
Saying "There are new facts, does this change your view?" is a not unreasonable question. But premature at this stage.
The Tories wouldn't call an election tomorrow if they were on 55% and Labour on 20%, now.
With a more positive campaign, more positive manifesto and a party leader that bothered to show up to the debates the rsulr would have been different.0 -
No, they absolutely would - but with a new leader and a proper campaign: attend the leader debates, publish a costed manifesto, no stupid fox-hunting type ideas, etc.Casino_Royale said:
Bollocks. The election was a lesson in that.NickPalmer said:
I think the comparison trivialises Maduro's actions. Calling a fresh election because he didn't like the last result is not especially dictatorial behaviour - it's entirely clear that the Conservatives would do exactly that tomorrow if they were confident they'd win. Tsk, one might say, but it's not unprecedented. Arresting and shooting opponents is what makes most of us on all sides turn against Maduro.ThreeQuidder said:Democracy requires that the decisions taken by the people are implemented by the politicians.
The idea that the politicians can say to the people "you got it wrong, vote again" is as anti-democratic as Maduro saying "you got it wrong in the 2015 National Assembly election" and following it as he has.
Saying "There are new facts, does this change your view?" is a not unreasonable question. But premature at this stage.
The Tories wouldn't call an election tomorrow if they were on 55% and Labour on 20%, now.0 -
That's assuming that people like Jacob Rees-Mogg and Anna Soubry can coexist in the same party for the length of a parliament in the current circumstances. Things will get very heated in British politics over the next year...Casino_Royale said:
Forget it. The Tories won't call an election now until the Parliament times out.Philip_Thompson said:
They might. What they wouldn't do is assume those figures could be counted on and run an entirely negative campaign.Casino_Royale said:
Bollocks. The election was a lesson in that.NickPalmer said:
I think the comparison trivialises Maduro's actions. Calling a fresh election because he didn't like the last result is not especially dictatorial behaviour - it's entirely clear that the Conservatives would do exactly that tomorrow if they were confident they'd win. Tsk, one might say, but it's not unprecedented. Arresting and shooting opponents is what makes most of us on all sides turn against Maduro.ThreeQuidder said:Democracy requires that the decisions taken by the people are implemented by the politicians.
The idea that the politicians can say to the people "you got it wrong, vote again" is as anti-democratic as Maduro saying "you got it wrong in the 2015 National Assembly election" and following it as he has.
Saying "There are new facts, does this change your view?" is a not unreasonable question. But premature at this stage.
The Tories wouldn't call an election tomorrow if they were on 55% and Labour on 20%, now.
With a more positive campaign, more positive manifesto and a party leader that bothered to show up to the debates the rsulr would have been different.0 -
Yes - all very good points. In the absence of a major Labour or Tory split I can't see a new centre party happening.PeterC said:
The obstacles are formiddable, and that is without there being much evidence of any popular demand for a new centre party, or any taking account of the fact that there already is one in the form of the LibDems.Benpointer said:
I think you are right PeterC. As someone who would be open to a new 3rd party I cannot think of any reason why Chapman should be the instigator of it. I had never heard of him before this week. His Wikipedia summary says it all really: "James Chapman is a British PR executive, a former UK Government adviser, and former political editor of the Daily Mail."PeterC said:
What is on display is a total lack of judgement. He could have put forward his views in a measured and - dare I say it - statesmanlike fashion and have been given the chance of hearing. Instead he is just lashing out in all directions and in the process making his cause appear ridiculous.GIN1138 said:James Chapman's Twitter is a complete car crash today...
The man is totally unhinged!
I expect serious Remoaners will want dissociate themselves from him. He is certainly the very last person you would want to launch a new party!
I assume the only reason he is getting such publicity now is because of his former role as Davis's Chief of Staff at the DEEU.
It's going to need someone with a bit more gravitas and depth to kick this off properly I think. David Miliband maybe?
In 1981 four heavyweight politicians took the plunge to launch the SDP. The stars were aligned much better then, yet even in alliance with the Liberals the venture was brutally treated by FPTP. This time there will need to be a lot more than ex-SPADs on twitter. Several heavyweights from both main parties will be essential to attact any sustained attention. The only problem is that I'm not sure that we do political heavyweights anymore.0 -
I've not seen that one before. Is the amount incorrect, or is it the whole "turkey will never join" thing?williamglenn said:
As Liam Fox said in the debate on the referendum bill:RobD said:Is the "Democrat" name supposed to be ironic?
"Some of us still bear the scars of 1992. That is why we must not rush into the referendum. We must ensure that we have adequate debate and that people do not feel that they have been bounced, or the result will not be as binding as we would like it to be."
He then joined a campaign committee that pushed out messaging like this. Can he be surprised that the result is not as binding as he would have liked it to be?
twitter.com/vote_leave/status/7446122596038164480 -
Plato's Pussy could do a better job than those two clowns!Casino_Royale said:
I'd do a better job than both for £115k.GIN1138 said:This in relation to Stuart Jackson (EX-MP) formally of this Parish?
https://twitter.com/jameschappers/status/895978929093259264
That's way more than the civil servants at DexEU get paid.
0 -
Poster also implies Syria and Iraq to join the EU. Scaremongering at it's most Daily Mail-esque.RobD said:
I've not seen that one before. Is the amount incorrect, or is it the whole "turkey will never join" thing?williamglenn said:
As Liam Fox said in the debate on the referendum bill:RobD said:Is the "Democrat" name supposed to be ironic?
"Some of us still bear the scars of 1992. That is why we must not rush into the referendum. We must ensure that we have adequate debate and that people do not feel that they have been bounced, or the result will not be as binding as we would like it to be."
He then joined a campaign committee that pushed out messaging like this. Can he be surprised that the result is not as binding as he would have liked it to be?
twitter.com/vote_leave/status/7446122596038164480 -
Still find it bizarre that Remain didn't come out and say they'd veto Turkish accession.Benpointer said:
Poster also implies Syria and Iraq to join the EU. Scaremongering at it's most Daily Mail-esque.RobD said:
I've not seen that one before. Is the amount incorrect, or is it the whole "turkey will never join" thing?williamglenn said:
As Liam Fox said in the debate on the referendum bill:RobD said:Is the "Democrat" name supposed to be ironic?
"Some of us still bear the scars of 1992. That is why we must not rush into the referendum. We must ensure that we have adequate debate and that people do not feel that they have been bounced, or the result will not be as binding as we would like it to be."
He then joined a campaign committee that pushed out messaging like this. Can he be surprised that the result is not as binding as he would have liked it to be?
twitter.com/vote_leave/status/7446122596038164480 -
Has anyone mentioned tonight's report in the Telegraph on line that the majority of remain voters now agree that Britain should take control of it's borders after Brexit, end the jurisdiction of the ECJ and pay little or nothing to leave.
It is a major survey of 20,000 people who now prefer a hard brexit.
Almost 70% of people said they preferred a deal with the EU which ends membership of the single market, ongoing payments and continued freedom of movement
A similar percentage prefer a 'no deal' to a soft Brexit.
Maybe opinion is moving away from the EU and those fighting to remain may be losing the argument.
But note I have said 'maybe'0 -
People should stop assuming that a new party would automatically suffer the same fate as the SDP. History does not automatically repeat itself, as evidenced by Corbyn's success in the 2017 election against the backdrop of 30 years of thinking the labour party could never win on a left wing platform.PeterC said:
any sustained attention. The only problem is that I'm not sure that we do political heavyweights anymore.Benpointer said:
I think you are right PeterC. As someone who would be open to a new 3rd party I cannot think of any reason why Chapman should be the instigator of it. I had never heard of him before this week. His Wikipedia summary says it all really: "James Chapman is a British PR executive, a former UK Government adviser, and former political editor of the Daily Mail."PeterC said:
What is on display is a total lack of judgement. He could have put forward his views in a measured and - dare I say it - statesmanlike fashion and have been given the chance of hearing. Instead he is just lashing out in all directions and in the process making his cause appear ridiculous.GIN1138 said:James Chapman's Twitter is a complete car crash today...
The man is totally unhinged!
I expect serious Remoaners will want dissociate themselves from him. He is certainly the very last person you would want to launch a new party!
I assume the only reason he is getting such publicity now is because of his former role as Davis's Chief of Staff at the DEEU.
It's going to need someone with a bit more gravitas and depth to kick this off properly I think. David Miliband maybe?
FPTP is a major barrier to entry, but a new party could work. If labour hold the line that they are taking on Brexit at the moment, then the Brexit vote just gets split between labour and the conservatives and there is an opportunity for a pro european party to mop up. Then the new party effectively forces Labour in to a grand brexit coalition with the conservatives, because neither of them can win a majority. Can you really see that happening?
If you believe in remaining you should go for it because what have you got to lose? What Chapman is ranting about makes quite a lot of sense. If a new party gets 20 seats, it has the balance of power.0 -
Did any of the people they surveyed have a workable solution for the Irish border?Big_G_NorthWales said:Has anyone mentioned tonight's report in the Telegraph on line that the majority of remain voters now agree that Britain should take control of it's borders after Brexit, end the jurisdiction of the ECJ and pay little or nothing to leave.
It is a major survey of 20,000 people who now prefer a hard brexit.
Almost 70% of people said they preferred a deal with the EU which ends membership of the single market, ongoing payments and continued freedom of movement
A similar percentage prefer a 'no deal' to a soft Brexit.
Maybe opinion is moving away from the EU and those fighting to remain may be losing the argument.
But note I have said 'maybe'0 -
So nothing changed?nielh said:
People should stop assuming that a new party would automatically suffer the same fate as the SDP. History does not automatically repeat itself, as evidenced by Corbyn's success in the 2017 election against the backdrop of 30 years of thinking the labour party could never win on a left wing platform.
0 -
That was David Cameron's fault - one of the few legitimate criticisms of him. He'd tied himself in knots by supporting Turkish accession. In itself, that originally wasn't a bad idea - roping Turkey into the European sphere of influence as a democracy was a noble aim - but as an idea it had already gone pear-shaped well before the referendum.Mortimer said:Still find it bizarre that Remain didn't come out and say they'd veto Turkish accession.
0 -
You sure you didn't dream that? All I am seeing is possibly he best Matt ever, and a photo of Hillary which makes me think Trump isn't all that bad after all.Big_G_NorthWales said:Has anyone mentioned tonight's report in the Telegraph on line that the majority of remain voters now agree that Britain should take control of it's borders after Brexit, end the jurisdiction of the ECJ and pay little or nothing to leave.
It is a major survey of 20,000 people who now prefer a hard brexit.
Almost 70% of people said they preferred a deal with the EU which ends membership of the single market, ongoing payments and continued freedom of movement
A similar percentage prefer a 'no deal' to a soft Brexit.
Maybe opinion is moving away from the EU and those fighting to remain may be losing the argument.
But note I have said 'maybe'0 -
Others are on 4%, so you only need 50% of the 96% (as the 4% won't be represented).HYUFD said:
Merkel needs the AfD as well as the FDP to get a right of centre coalition over 50% so a CDU SPD coalition is likely to continueAndyJS said:Latest German poll:
CDU: 40%
SPD: 24%
Greens: 8%
Left: 8%
FDP: 8%
AfD: 8%
Others: 4%
http://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/
I would note that the AfD has outperformed its poll scores in most of the local German elections in the last couple of years, so they may well be understated here.
However, I would also note that the current AfD leadership is much closer to the FN than the old AfD leadership was. So, I would be very surprised if the CDU got into bed with them. CDU+FDP+Greens seems a more likely coalition.0 -
I have no idea William but it is much against the majority opinion on here. It may also be that many just want out no matter what the consequenceswilliamglenn said:
Did any of the people they surveyed have a workable solution for the Irish border?Big_G_NorthWales said:Has anyone mentioned tonight's report in the Telegraph on line that the majority of remain voters now agree that Britain should take control of it's borders after Brexit, end the jurisdiction of the ECJ and pay little or nothing to leave.
It is a major survey of 20,000 people who now prefer a hard brexit.
Almost 70% of people said they preferred a deal with the EU which ends membership of the single market, ongoing payments and continued freedom of movement
A similar percentage prefer a 'no deal' to a soft Brexit.
Maybe opinion is moving away from the EU and those fighting to remain may be losing the argument.
But note I have said 'maybe'0 -
It was bizarre. It would have cut off a strong attack line. Presumably polling suggested they didn't need to.Richard_Nabavi said:
That was David Cameron's fault - one of the few legitimate criticisms of him. He'd tied himself in knots by supporting Turkish accession. In itself, that originally wasn't a bad idea - roping Turkey into the European sphere of influence as a democracy was a noble aim - but as an idea it had already gone pear-shaped well before the referendum.Mortimer said:Still find it bizarre that Remain didn't come out and say they'd veto Turkish accession.
Btw you're quite right - wage bill etc is the largest part of school spending, but there is significant expenditure on computer equipment, consumables, cleaning products etc that obviously includes input VAT.0 -
Depends on the Trade agreement with the EU.williamglenn said:
So what's your solution for the Irish border?ThreeQuidder said:
There is no such idea. But democracy requires that the decisions taken by the people are implemented by the politicians.AlastairMeeks said:
No it's not exactly the same. The public decided to vote to sail down a river. If you see Niagara ahead, it is not ignoring the demands of the little people for the crew to take matters into their own hands.ThreeQuidder said:
That is exactly saying that the demands of the little people should be ignored as the little people have demanded that we Leave the EU.AlastairMeeks said:
Yes, quite. Not arguing that the demands of the little people should be ignored. Arguing that Brexit is a catastrophe and the democratically elected representatives who have formed the same view should come together to seek to avert it.ThreeQuidder said:
https://twitter.com/jameschappers/status/895014262804033536AlastairMeeks said:
That is not his argument at all.ThreeQuidder said:
His argument, such as it is, is that the demands of the little people should be ignored. There's no engaging with that.AlastairMeeks said:
They can't engage with his arguments so they threaten him with a doing-over by the Daily Mail and post nude pictures of him online.williamglenn said:
Even on an issue like this they play the man not the ball. Telling.AlastairMeeks said:One loony Leaver quoting another loony Leaver's tweets: Brexception.
https://twitter.com/jameschappers/status/896044435104051204
I should point out that personally I don't agree with James Chapman. But this idea that democracy stopped on 23 June 2016 is ridiculous.
Which the EU won't discuss until there is a solution for the Irish border........0 -
Sorry @Big_G_NorthWales, I missed it.
Link for others as blind as me http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/11/remain-voters-now-back-taking-control-borders-leaving-ecj-paying/0 -
The EU egg scandal seems to be extending to chicken meat. But no problem the EU are meeting on the 26th September to discuss the issue.
Clear demonstration that they are too cumbersome an organisation to deal with it now as an emergency0 -
It really should worry those in the remain camp. This is a 20,000 people surveyIshmael_Z said:Sorry @Big_G_NorthWales, I missed it.
Link for others as blind as me http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/11/remain-voters-now-back-taking-control-borders-leaving-ecj-paying/0 -
In other words you don't have an answer but you know who to blame. That's the Brexit strategy.CarlottaVance said:
Depends on the Trade agreement with the EU.williamglenn said:
So what's your solution for the Irish border?ThreeQuidder said:
There is no such idea. But democracy requires that the decisions taken by the people are implemented by the politicians.AlastairMeeks said:
No it's not exactly the same. The public decided to vote to sail down a river. If you see Niagara ahead, it is not ignoring the demands of the little people for the crew to take matters into their own hands.ThreeQuidder said:
That is exactly saying that the demands of the little people should be ignored as the little people have demanded that we Leave the EU.AlastairMeeks said:
Yes, quite. Not arguing that the demands of the little people should be ignored. Arguing that Brexit is a catastrophe and the democratically elected representatives who have formed the same view should come together to seek to avert it.ThreeQuidder said:
https://twitter.com/jameschappers/status/895014262804033536AlastairMeeks said:
That is not his argument at all.ThreeQuidder said:
His argument, such as it is, is that the demands of the little people should be ignored. There's no engaging with that.AlastairMeeks said:
They can't engage with his arguments so they threaten him with a doing-over by the Daily Mail and post nude pictures of him online.williamglenn said:
Even on an issue like this they play the man not the ball. Telling.AlastairMeeks said:One loony Leaver quoting another loony Leaver's tweets: Brexception.
https://twitter.com/jameschappers/status/896044435104051204
I should point out that personally I don't agree with James Chapman. But this idea that democracy stopped on 23 June 2016 is ridiculous.
Which the EU won't discuss until there is a solution for the Irish border........0 -
Sounds like a reprint of this Buzzfeed scoop:Ishmael_Z said:
You sure you didn't dream that? All I am seeing is possibly he best Matt ever, and a photo of Hillary which makes me think Trump isn't all that bad after all.Big_G_NorthWales said:Has anyone mentioned tonight's report in the Telegraph on line that the majority of remain voters now agree that Britain should take control of it's borders after Brexit, end the jurisdiction of the ECJ and pay little or nothing to leave.
It is a major survey of 20,000 people who now prefer a hard brexit.
Almost 70% of people said they preferred a deal with the EU which ends membership of the single market, ongoing payments and continued freedom of movement
A similar percentage prefer a 'no deal' to a soft Brexit.
Maybe opinion is moving away from the EU and those fighting to remain may be losing the argument.
But note I have said 'maybe'
https://www.buzzfeed.com/jamesball/remain-and-leave-voters-are-surprisingly-united-on-backing?utm_term=.oj8dL0dY2w#.nhJ70O7gm3
Which looks legit.....0 -
Really not going Remoan's way at the moment, is it? They may almost be about to regret making the import of chicken from the US into such a front and centre issue...Big_G_NorthWales said:The EU egg scandal seems to be extending to chicken meat. But no problem the EU are meeting on the 26th September to discuss the issue.
Clear demonstration that they are too cumbersome an organisation to deal with it now as an emergency0 -
It depends on the Trade agreement with the EUwilliamglenn said:
In other words you don't have an answer but you know who to blame. That's the Brexit strategy.CarlottaVance said:
Depends on the Trade agreement with the EU.williamglenn said:
So what's your solution for the Irish border?ThreeQuidder said:
There is no such idea. But democracy requires that the decisions taken by the people are implemented by the politicians.AlastairMeeks said:
No it's not exactly the same. The public decided to vote to sail down a river. If you see Niagara ahead, it is not ignoring the demands of the little people for the crew to take matters into their own hands.ThreeQuidder said:
That is exactly saying that the demands of the little people should be ignored as the little people have demanded that we Leave the EU.AlastairMeeks said:
Yes, quite. Not arguing that the demands of the little people should be ignored. Arguing that Brexit is a catastrophe and the democratically elected representatives who have formed the same view should come together to seek to avert it.ThreeQuidder said:
https://twitter.com/jameschappers/status/895014262804033536AlastairMeeks said:
That is not his argument at all.ThreeQuidder said:
His argument, such as it is, is that the demands of the little people should be ignored. There's no engaging with that.AlastairMeeks said:
They can't engage with his arguments so they threaten him with a doing-over by the Daily Mail and post nude pictures of him online.williamglenn said:
Even on an issue like this they play the man not the ball. Telling.AlastairMeeks said:One loony Leaver quoting another loony Leaver's tweets: Brexception.
https://twitter.com/jameschappers/status/896044435104051204
I should point out that personally I don't agree with James Chapman. But this idea that democracy stopped on 23 June 2016 is ridiculous.
Which the EU won't discuss until there is a solution for the Irish border........
Which part of that don't you understand?0 -
I think that I am not alone in being a Remainer turned Hard Brexiteer.Big_G_NorthWales said:Has anyone mentioned tonight's report in the Telegraph on line that the majority of remain voters now agree that Britain should take control of it's borders after Brexit, end the jurisdiction of the ECJ and pay little or nothing to leave.
It is a major survey of 20,000 people who now prefer a hard brexit.
Almost 70% of people said they preferred a deal with the EU which ends membership of the single market, ongoing payments and continued freedom of movement
A similar percentage prefer a 'no deal' to a soft Brexit.
Maybe opinion is moving away from the EU and those fighting to remain may be losing the argument.
But note I have said 'maybe'
Either we stay in and fully participate, or walkaway completely. A half in / half out Brexit is not tenable.0 -
Also business report today that Switzerland wants to join the UK, Singapore and Hong Kong in a new banking and financial arrangement post Brexit. And the EU are furious apparentlyIshmael_Z said:
Really not going Remoan's way at the moment, is it? They may almost be about to regret making the import of chicken from the US into such a front and centre issue...Big_G_NorthWales said:The EU egg scandal seems to be extending to chicken meat. But no problem the EU are meeting on the 26th September to discuss the issue.
Clear demonstration that they are too cumbersome an organisation to deal with it now as an emergency0 -
Big_G_NorthWales said:
It really should worry those in the remain camp. This is a 20,000 people surveyIshmael_Z said:Sorry @Big_G_NorthWales, I missed it.
Link for others as blind as me http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/11/remain-voters-now-back-taking-control-borders-leaving-ecj-paying/
It also shows how out of touch they are.
No wonder Chapman doesn't want another referendum.....they'd get the wrong answer, again.....0 -
So if the trade agreement is x, the border is y, but if the trade agreement is a, the border is b?CarlottaVance said:
It depends on the Trade agreement with the EUwilliamglenn said:
In other words you don't have an answer but you know who to blame. That's the Brexit strategy.CarlottaVance said:
Depends on the Trade agreement with the EU.williamglenn said:
So what's your solution for the Irish border?ThreeQuidder said:
There is no such idea. But democracy requires that the decisions taken by the people are implemented by the politicians.AlastairMeeks said:
No it's not exactly the same. The public decided to vote to sail down a river. If you see Niagara ahead, it is not ignoring the demands of the little people for the crew to take matters into their own hands.ThreeQuidder said:
That is exactly saying that the demands of the little people should be ignored as the little people have demanded that we Leave the EU.AlastairMeeks said:
Yes, quite. Not arguing that the demands of the little people should be ignored. Arguing that Brexit is a catastrophe and the democratically elected representatives who have formed the same view should come together to seek to avert it.ThreeQuidder said:
https://twitter.com/jameschappers/status/895014262804033536AlastairMeeks said:
That is not his argument at all.ThreeQuidder said:
His argument, such as it is, is that the demands of the little people should be ignored. There's no engaging with that.AlastairMeeks said:
They can't engage with his arguments so they threaten him with a doing-over by the Daily Mail and post nude pictures of him online.williamglenn said:
Even on an issue like this they play the man not the ball. Telling.AlastairMeeks said:One loony Leaver quoting another loony Leaver's tweets: Brexception.
https://twitter.com/jameschappers/status/896044435104051204
I should point out that personally I don't agree with James Chapman. But this idea that democracy stopped on 23 June 2016 is ridiculous.
Which the EU won't discuss until there is a solution for the Irish border........
Which part of that don't you understand?
That doesn't work I'm afraid. The border has some characteristics that are non-negotiable and they constrain the terms of trade, not vice versa.0 -
To be honest you are a supporter of Corbyn who cannot follow his Venezuela economics while tied to the EU. Great game against the Arsenal tonight and you deserved a point at leastfoxinsoxuk said:
I think that I am not alone in being a Remainer turned Hard Brexiteer.Big_G_NorthWales said:Has anyone mentioned tonight's report in the Telegraph on line that the majority of remain voters now agree that Britain should take control of it's borders after Brexit, end the jurisdiction of the ECJ and pay little or nothing to leave.
It is a major survey of 20,000 people who now prefer a hard brexit.
Almost 70% of people said they preferred a deal with the EU which ends membership of the single market, ongoing payments and continued freedom of movement
A similar percentage prefer a 'no deal' to a soft Brexit.
Maybe opinion is moving away from the EU and those fighting to remain may be losing the argument.
But note I have said 'maybe'
Either we stay in and fully participate, or walkaway completely. A half in / half out Brexit is not tenable.0 -
The Telegraph seems to be reporting a Buzzfeed report of an as yet unpbulished survey by the LSE and Oxford Uni. See link...Ishmael_Z said:Sorry @Big_G_NorthWales, I missed it.
Link for others as blind as me http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/11/remain-voters-now-back-taking-control-borders-leaving-ecj-paying/
https://www.buzzfeed.com/jamesball/remain-and-leave-voters-are-surprisingly-united-on-backing
Interestingly the Telegraph says it's a survey of 20,000 people, Buzzfeed says 3,000... What's the betting LSE and Oxford say they surveyed 300? lol! [See EDIT below]
Feels like potentially fake news until we see the official survey.
EDIT: The Buzzfeed article states:
The researchers collected six data points each from 3,293 people, resulting in a dataset of 19,758 choices. An earlier version of this story misstated that the researchers surveyed 20,000 people.0 -
To be fair it sounds as if you hope it is fake newsBenpointer said:
The Telegraph seems to be reporting a Buzzfeed report of an as yet unpbulished survey by the LSE and Oxford Uni. See link...Ishmael_Z said:Sorry @Big_G_NorthWales, I missed it.
Link for others as blind as me http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/11/remain-voters-now-back-taking-control-borders-leaving-ecj-paying/
https://www.buzzfeed.com/jamesball/remain-and-leave-voters-are-surprisingly-united-on-backing
Interestingly the Telegraph says it's a survey of 20,000 people, Buzzfeed says 3,000... What's the betting LSE and Oxford say they surveyed 300 lol!
Feels like potentially fake news until we see the official survey.
EDIT: The Buzzfeed article states:
The researchers collected six data points each from 3,293 people, resulting in a dataset of 19,758 choices. An earlier version of this story misstated that the researchers surveyed 20,000 people.0 -
The way the survey was set up was interesting in that it asked people to judge how much they would support or oppose a particular scenario with a neutral position as the default.CarlottaVance said:Big_G_NorthWales said:
It really should worry those in the remain camp. This is a 20,000 people surveyIshmael_Z said:Sorry @Big_G_NorthWales, I missed it.
Link for others as blind as me http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/11/remain-voters-now-back-taking-control-borders-leaving-ecj-paying/
It also shows how out of touch they are.
No wonder Chapman doesn't want another referendum.....they'd get the wrong answer, again.....
A such you can gauge how strong their feelings are about a particular issue. Perhaps the most striking thing is that Leave voters are not particularly opposed to Brexit not happening until 2025. There is no sense of urgency about reaching the 'sunlit uplands'.0 -
Whereas the UK dealt with BSE in an exemplary manner of course!Big_G_NorthWales said:The EU egg scandal seems to be extending to chicken meat. But no problem the EU are meeting on the 26th September to discuss the issue.
Clear demonstration that they are too cumbersome an organisation to deal with it now as an emergency0 -
Always ready to do down UK PLCBenpointer said:
Whereas the UK dealt with BSE in an exemplary manner of course!Big_G_NorthWales said:The EU egg scandal seems to be extending to chicken meat. But no problem the EU are meeting on the 26th September to discuss the issue.
Clear demonstration that they are too cumbersome an organisation to deal with it now as an emergency0 -
Bottom of buzzfeed page:Benpointer said:
The Telegraph seems to be reporting a Buzzfeed report of an as yet unpbulished survey by the LSE and Oxford Uni. See link...Ishmael_Z said:Sorry @Big_G_NorthWales, I missed it.
Link for others as blind as me http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/11/remain-voters-now-back-taking-control-borders-leaving-ecj-paying/
https://www.buzzfeed.com/jamesball/remain-and-leave-voters-are-surprisingly-united-on-backing
Interestingly the Telegraph says it's a survey of 20,000 people, Buzzfeed says 3,000... What's the betting LSE and Oxford say they surveyed 300? lol! [See EDIT below]
Feels like potentially fake news until we see the official survey.
EDIT: The Buzzfeed article states:
The researchers collected six data points each from 3,293 people, resulting in a dataset of 19,758 choices. An earlier version of this story misstated that the researchers surveyed 20,000 people.
CORRECTION
August 11, 2017, at 5:17 p.m.
The researchers collected six data points each from 3,293 people, resulting in a dataset of 19,758 choices. An earlier version of this story misstated that the researchers surveyed 20,000 people.
The graphs in the article are really, really cool (in form as opposed to content)0 -
We always get robbed at the Arsenal. Comedy defending at both ends and very poor subs by Shakey.Big_G_NorthWales said:
To be honest you are a supporter of Corbyn who cannot follow his Venezuela economics while tied to the EU. Great game against the Arsenal tonight and you deserved a point at leastfoxinsoxuk said:
I think that I am not alone in being a Remainer turned Hard Brexiteer.Big_G_NorthWales said:Has anyone mentioned tonight's report in the Telegraph on line that the majority of remain voters now agree that Britain should take control of it's borders after Brexit, end the jurisdiction of the ECJ and pay little or nothing to leave.
It is a major survey of 20,000 people who now prefer a hard brexit.
Almost 70% of people said they preferred a deal with the EU which ends membership of the single market, ongoing payments and continued freedom of movement
A similar percentage prefer a 'no deal' to a soft Brexit.
Maybe opinion is moving away from the EU and those fighting to remain may be losing the argument.
But note I have said 'maybe'
Either we stay in and fully participate, or walkaway completely. A half in / half out Brexit is not tenable.
I have never supported Corbyn's economics, though can understand why he is popular. I have always opposed borrowing. I hate debt in all its forms.0 -
Does it matter?williamglenn said:
Did any of the people they surveyed have a workable solution for the Irish border?Big_G_NorthWales said:Has anyone mentioned tonight's report in the Telegraph on line that the majority of remain voters now agree that Britain should take control of it's borders after Brexit, end the jurisdiction of the ECJ and pay little or nothing to leave.
It is a major survey of 20,000 people who now prefer a hard brexit.
Almost 70% of people said they preferred a deal with the EU which ends membership of the single market, ongoing payments and continued freedom of movement
A similar percentage prefer a 'no deal' to a soft Brexit.
Maybe opinion is moving away from the EU and those fighting to remain may be losing the argument.
But note I have said 'maybe'0 -
I do not see why a new party would fare any better than the LibDems. In 2017 they were the ideal anti-Brexit choice, yet came nowhere, and that with about a quarter of voters being strongly opposed to Brexit. This is surely driven by the LibDems' lack of credibility as potential winners, the oldest of the obstacles faced by the Liberals. This in turn is driven by FPTP.nielh said:
People should stop assuming that a new party would automatically suffer the same fate as the SDP. History does not automatically repeat itself, as evidenced by Corbyn's success in the 2017 election against the backdrop of 30 years of thinking the labour party could never win on a left wing platform.PeterC said:
any sustained attention. The only problem is that I'm not sure that we do political heavyweights anymore.Benpointer said:
Mail."PeterC said:
What is on display is a total lack of judgement. He could have put forward his views in a measured and - dare I say it - statesmanlike fashion and have been given the chance of hearing. Instead he is just lashing out in all directions and in the process making his cause appear ridiculous.GIN1138 said:James Chapman's Twitter is a complete car crash today...
The man is totally unhinged!
I expect serious Remoaners will want dissociate themselves from him. He is certainly the very last person you would want to launch a new party!
I assume the only reas
It's going to need someone with a bit more gravitas and depth to kick this off properly I think. David Miliband maybe?
FPTP is a major barrier to entry, but a new party could work. If labour hold the line that they are taking on Brexit at the moment, then the Brexit vote just gets split between labour and the conservatives and there is an opportunity for a pro european party to mop up. Then the new party effectively forces Labour in to a grand brexit coalition with the conservatives, because neither of them can win a majority. Can you really see that happening?
If you believe in remaining you should go for it because what have you got to lose? What Chapman is ranting about makes quite a lot of sense. If a new party gets 20 seats, it has the balance of power.
A unified centre force would need close on 30pc of the poll even to begin to achieve lift-off.
People should indeed stop thinking that a new party would automatically suffer the same fate as the SDP. It's fate could in fact be far worse. Even winning only a handful of seats it's influence could nonetheless be highly significant in the way it might alter the balance of support between the two main parties. This factor has been important if not critical in most of the elections since 1974.0 -
Fair comment - you did deserve a pointfoxinsoxuk said:
We always get robbed at the Arsenal. Comedy defending at both ends and very poor subs by Shakey.Big_G_NorthWales said:
To be honest you are a supporter of Corbyn who cannot follow his Venezuela economics while tied to the EU. Great game against the Arsenal tonight and you deserved a point at leastfoxinsoxuk said:
I think that I am not alone in being a Remainer turned Hard Brexiteer.Big_G_NorthWales said:Has anyone mentioned tonight's report in the Telegraph on line that the majority of remain voters now agree that Britain should take control of it's borders after Brexit, end the jurisdiction of the ECJ and pay little or nothing to leave.
It is a major survey of 20,000 people who now prefer a hard brexit.
Almost 70% of people said they preferred a deal with the EU which ends membership of the single market, ongoing payments and continued freedom of movement
A similar percentage prefer a 'no deal' to a soft Brexit.
Maybe opinion is moving away from the EU and those fighting to remain may be losing the argument.
But note I have said 'maybe'
Either we stay in and fully participate, or walkaway completely. A half in / half out Brexit is not tenable.
I have never supported Corbyn's economics, though can understand why he is popular. I have always opposed borrowing. I hate debt in all its forms.0 -
Do they care. They just want out by the looks of itSean_F said:
Does it matter?williamglenn said:
Did any of the people they surveyed have a workable solution for the Irish border?Big_G_NorthWales said:Has anyone mentioned tonight's report in the Telegraph on line that the majority of remain voters now agree that Britain should take control of it's borders after Brexit, end the jurisdiction of the ECJ and pay little or nothing to leave.
It is a major survey of 20,000 people who now prefer a hard brexit.
Almost 70% of people said they preferred a deal with the EU which ends membership of the single market, ongoing payments and continued freedom of movement
A similar percentage prefer a 'no deal' to a soft Brexit.
Maybe opinion is moving away from the EU and those fighting to remain may be losing the argument.
But note I have said 'maybe'0 -
No it's just foolish to think that UK bureaucracy is any better than EU bureacracy.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Always ready to do down UK PLCBenpointer said:
Whereas the UK dealt with BSE in an exemplary manner of course!Big_G_NorthWales said:The EU egg scandal seems to be extending to chicken meat. But no problem the EU are meeting on the 26th September to discuss the issue.
Clear demonstration that they are too cumbersome an organisation to deal with it now as an emergency
Have you flip-flopped back to Leave again? I thought you'd changed to a reluctant Remainer last month?!0 -
No, probably not - it would be nice if Davis and co have a workable solution though!Sean_F said:
Does it matter?williamglenn said:
Did any of the people they surveyed have a workable solution for the Irish border?Big_G_NorthWales said:Has anyone mentioned tonight's report in the Telegraph on line that the majority of remain voters now agree that Britain should take control of it's borders after Brexit, end the jurisdiction of the ECJ and pay little or nothing to leave.
It is a major survey of 20,000 people who now prefer a hard brexit.
Almost 70% of people said they preferred a deal with the EU which ends membership of the single market, ongoing payments and continued freedom of movement
A similar percentage prefer a 'no deal' to a soft Brexit.
Maybe opinion is moving away from the EU and those fighting to remain may be losing the argument.
But note I have said 'maybe'0 -
Check the Buzzfeed link. People are not too bothered if we don't leave until 2025. It doesn't really matter to them, however they define what they think 'Brexit' should mean.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Do they care. They just want out by the looks of itSean_F said:
Does it matter?williamglenn said:
Did any of the people they surveyed have a workable solution for the Irish border?Big_G_NorthWales said:Has anyone mentioned tonight's report in the Telegraph on line that the majority of remain voters now agree that Britain should take control of it's borders after Brexit, end the jurisdiction of the ECJ and pay little or nothing to leave.
It is a major survey of 20,000 people who now prefer a hard brexit.
Almost 70% of people said they preferred a deal with the EU which ends membership of the single market, ongoing payments and continued freedom of movement
A similar percentage prefer a 'no deal' to a soft Brexit.
Maybe opinion is moving away from the EU and those fighting to remain may be losing the argument.
But note I have said 'maybe'0 -
Well the "20,000 people surveyed" part was fake!Big_G_NorthWales said:
To be fair it sounds as if you hope it is fake newsBenpointer said:
The Telegraph seems to be reporting a Buzzfeed report of an as yet unpbulished survey by the LSE and Oxford Uni. See link...Ishmael_Z said:Sorry @Big_G_NorthWales, I missed it.
Link for others as blind as me http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/11/remain-voters-now-back-taking-control-borders-leaving-ecj-paying/
https://www.buzzfeed.com/jamesball/remain-and-leave-voters-are-surprisingly-united-on-backing
Interestingly the Telegraph says it's a survey of 20,000 people, Buzzfeed says 3,000... What's the betting LSE and Oxford say they surveyed 300 lol!
Feels like potentially fake news until we see the official survey.
EDIT: The Buzzfeed article states:
The researchers collected six data points each from 3,293 people, resulting in a dataset of 19,758 choices. An earlier version of this story misstated that the researchers surveyed 20,000 people.0 -
It all makes me think that a car crash Brexit is nailed on. We are making no preparations for it, yet the voters will spit the dummy at soft Brexit. Interesting that both Remainders and Leavers were in no hurry, and quite happy to have Brexit postponed.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Do they care. They just want out by the looks of itSean_F said:
Does it matter?williamglenn said:
Did any of the people they surveyed have a workable solution for the Irish border?Big_G_NorthWales said:Has anyone mentioned tonight's report in the Telegraph on line that the majority of remain voters now agree that Britain should take control of it's borders after Brexit, end the jurisdiction of the ECJ and pay little or nothing to leave.
It is a major survey of 20,000 people who now prefer a hard brexit.
Almost 70% of people said they preferred a deal with the EU which ends membership of the single market, ongoing payments and continued freedom of movement
A similar percentage prefer a 'no deal' to a soft Brexit.
Maybe opinion is moving away from the EU and those fighting to remain may be losing the argument.
But note I have said 'maybe'
Lord, make me virtuous, but not yet!0 -
No - I am wanting out but not prepared to be up tight about it as the negotiations proceed. It does feel as if there is some indication that the EU does not have all the cards and it could be that the majority do not care too much about the negatives, they just want the deed doneBenpointer said:
No it's just foolish to think that UK bureaucracy is any better than EU bureacracy.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Always ready to do down UK PLCBenpointer said:
Whereas the UK dealt with BSE in an exemplary manner of course!Big_G_NorthWales said:The EU egg scandal seems to be extending to chicken meat. But no problem the EU are meeting on the 26th September to discuss the issue.
Clear demonstration that they are too cumbersome an organisation to deal with it now as an emergency
Have you flip-flopped back to Leave again? I thought you'd changed to a reluctant Remainer last month?!0 -
You hate people saving! Why?foxinsoxuk said:
We always get robbed at the Arsenal. Comedy defending at both ends and very poor subs by Shakey.Big_G_NorthWales said:
To be honest you are a supporter of Corbyn who cannot follow his Venezuela economics while tied to the EU. Great game against the Arsenal tonight and you deserved a point at leastfoxinsoxuk said:
I think that I am not alone in being a Remainer turned Hard Brexiteer.Big_G_NorthWales said:Has anyone mentioned tonight's report in the Telegraph on line that the majority of remain voters now agree that Britain should take control of it's borders after Brexit, end the jurisdiction of the ECJ and pay little or nothing to leave.
It is a major survey of 20,000 people who now prefer a hard brexit.
Almost 70% of people said they preferred a deal with the EU which ends membership of the single market, ongoing payments and continued freedom of movement
A similar percentage prefer a 'no deal' to a soft Brexit.
Maybe opinion is moving away from the EU and those fighting to remain may be losing the argument.
But note I have said 'maybe'
Either we stay in and fully participate, or walkaway completely. A half in / half out Brexit is not tenable.
I have never supported Corbyn's economics, though can understand why he is popular. I have always opposed borrowing. I hate debt in all its forms.0 -
They may be really cool in Chrome - they are really blank in Safari!Ishmael_Z said:
Bottom of buzzfeed page:Benpointer said:
The Telegraph seems to be reporting a Buzzfeed report of an as yet unpbulished survey by the LSE and Oxford Uni. See link...Ishmael_Z said:Sorry @Big_G_NorthWales, I missed it.
Link for others as blind as me http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/11/remain-voters-now-back-taking-control-borders-leaving-ecj-paying/
https://www.buzzfeed.com/jamesball/remain-and-leave-voters-are-surprisingly-united-on-backing
Interestingly the Telegraph says it's a survey of 20,000 people, Buzzfeed says 3,000... What's the betting LSE and Oxford say they surveyed 300? lol! [See EDIT below]
Feels like potentially fake news until we see the official survey.
EDIT: The Buzzfeed article states:
The researchers collected six data points each from 3,293 people, resulting in a dataset of 19,758 choices. An earlier version of this story misstated that the researchers surveyed 20,000 people.
CORRECTION
August 11, 2017, at 5:17 p.m.
The researchers collected six data points each from 3,293 people, resulting in a dataset of 19,758 choices. An earlier version of this story misstated that the researchers surveyed 20,000 people.
The graphs in the article are really, really cool (in form as opposed to content)
0 -
I would add it does not help my attitude to the EU when Juncker pays £24,000 for a private flying taxi from Brussels to Rome when there are many direct flights between the two daily. But socialists always run out of other people's moneyBig_G_NorthWales said:
No - I am wanting out but not prepared to be up tight about it as the negotiations proceed. It does feel as if there is some indication that the EU does not have all the cards and it could be that the majority do not care too much about the negatives, they just want the deed doneBenpointer said:
No it's just foolish to think that UK bureaucracy is any better than EU bureacracy.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Always ready to do down UK PLCBenpointer said:
Whereas the UK dealt with BSE in an exemplary manner of course!Big_G_NorthWales said:The EU egg scandal seems to be extending to chicken meat. But no problem the EU are meeting on the 26th September to discuss the issue.
Clear demonstration that they are too cumbersome an organisation to deal with it now as an emergency
Have you flip-flopped back to Leave again? I thought you'd changed to a reluctant Remainer last month?!0 -
Any action is by the regulatory authorities and well underway, a committee meeting is just a distraction at this stage. This is already illegal, it is primarily about enforcement.Benpointer said:
No it's just foolish to think that UK bureaucracy is any better than EU bureacracy.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Always ready to do down UK PLCBenpointer said:
Whereas the UK dealt with BSE in an exemplary manner of course!Big_G_NorthWales said:The EU egg scandal seems to be extending to chicken meat. But no problem the EU are meeting on the 26th September to discuss the issue.
Clear demonstration that they are too cumbersome an organisation to deal with it now as an emergency
Have you flip-flopped back to Leave again? I thought you'd changed to a reluctant Remainer last month?!
Incidentally, it does show how swiftly even ubiquitous, fragile goods with a short shelf life move around quickly in the Single Market. Post Brexit, they would all still be in a Calais lorry park.0 -
Scroll down - works in my Safari......Benpointer said:
They may be really cool in Chrome - they are really blank in Safari!Ishmael_Z said:
Bottom of buzzfeed page:Benpointer said:
The Telegraph seems to be reporting a Buzzfeed report of an as yet unpbulished survey by the LSE and Oxford Uni. See link...Ishmael_Z said:Sorry @Big_G_NorthWales, I missed it.
Link for others as blind as me http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/11/remain-voters-now-back-taking-control-borders-leaving-ecj-paying/
https://www.buzzfeed.com/jamesball/remain-and-leave-voters-are-surprisingly-united-on-backing
Interestingly the Telegraph says it's a survey of 20,000 people, Buzzfeed says 3,000... What's the betting LSE and Oxford say they surveyed 300? lol! [See EDIT below]
Feels like potentially fake news until we see the official survey.
EDIT: The Buzzfeed article states:
The researchers collected six data points each from 3,293 people, resulting in a dataset of 19,758 choices. An earlier version of this story misstated that the researchers surveyed 20,000 people.
CORRECTION
August 11, 2017, at 5:17 p.m.
The researchers collected six data points each from 3,293 people, resulting in a dataset of 19,758 choices. An earlier version of this story misstated that the researchers surveyed 20,000 people.
The graphs in the article are really, really cool (in form as opposed to content)0 -
It matters, I suspect, in that it makes the support of the DUP less certain. I suspect that there is a very large majority of people in Northern Ireland that wish the Common Travel Area to continue, including a majority of Unionists.Sean_F said:
Does it matter?williamglenn said:
Did any of the people they surveyed have a workable solution for the Irish border?Big_G_NorthWales said:Has anyone mentioned tonight's report in the Telegraph on line that the majority of remain voters now agree that Britain should take control of it's borders after Brexit, end the jurisdiction of the ECJ and pay little or nothing to leave.
It is a major survey of 20,000 people who now prefer a hard brexit.
Almost 70% of people said they preferred a deal with the EU which ends membership of the single market, ongoing payments and continued freedom of movement
A similar percentage prefer a 'no deal' to a soft Brexit.
Maybe opinion is moving away from the EU and those fighting to remain may be losing the argument.
But note I have said 'maybe'
If the deal were to result in a hard border with Ireland, you might see the DUP unable to support it. Given there will be a fair number of Tories who might vote against the government, and that Corbyn will be ruthless in his desire to see the Tories out of power, I do believe that there is a very real chance that the Brexit (Arrangements) Bill fails to pass the House of Commons.0 -
Juncker and team. The cost per person was £2,650.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I would add it does not help my attitude to the EU when Juncker pays £24,000 for a private flying taxi from Brussels to Rome when there are many direct flights between the two daily. But socialists always run out of other people's moneyBig_G_NorthWales said:
No - I am wanting out but not prepared to be up tight about it as the negotiations proceed. It does feel as if there is some indication that the EU does not have all the cards and it could be that the majority do not care too much about the negatives, they just want the deed doneBenpointer said:
No it's just foolish to think that UK bureaucracy is any better than EU bureacracy.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Always ready to do down UK PLCBenpointer said:
Whereas the UK dealt with BSE in an exemplary manner of course!Big_G_NorthWales said:The EU egg scandal seems to be extending to chicken meat. But no problem the EU are meeting on the 26th September to discuss the issue.
Clear demonstration that they are too cumbersome an organisation to deal with it now as an emergency
Have you flip-flopped back to Leave again? I thought you'd changed to a reluctant Remainer last month?!0 -
williamglenn said:
Check the Buzzfeed link. People are not too bothered if we don't leave until 2025. It doesn't really matter to them, however they define what they think 'Brexit' should mean.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Do they care. They just want out by the looks of itSean_F said:
Does it matter?williamglenn said:
Did any of the people they surveyed have a workable solution for the Irish border?Big_G_NorthWales said:Has anyone mentioned tonight's report in the Telegraph on line that the majority of remain voters now agree that Britain should take control of it's borders after Brexit, end the jurisdiction of the ECJ and pay little or nothing to leave.
It is a major survey of 20,000 people who now prefer a hard brexit.
Almost 70% of people said they preferred a deal with the EU which ends membership of the single market, ongoing payments and continued freedom of movement
A similar percentage prefer a 'no deal' to a soft Brexit.
Maybe opinion is moving away from the EU and those fighting to remain may be losing the argument.
But note I have said 'maybe'
Overall, Leave voters would most prefer Brexit to be completed by 2019, but have no objection at all to a delay to 2021, and only by a slight margin oppose a delay as far as 2025 – a trend almost identical to that of Remainers.
Majority Remain support is to leave by 2020.....0 -
Debt shrinks horizons, and chains us to the yoke of the capitalists. It prevents us being free.rcs1000 said:
You hate people saving! Why?foxinsoxuk said:
We always get robbed at the Arsenal. Comedy defending at both ends and very poor subs by Shakey.Big_G_NorthWales said:
To be honest you are a supporter of Corbyn who cannot follow his Venezuela economics while tied to the EU. Great game against the Arsenal tonight and you deserved a point at leastfoxinsoxuk said:
I think that I am not alone in being a Remainer turned Hard Brexiteer.Big_G_NorthWales said:Has anyone mentioned tonight's report in the Telegraph on line that the majority of remain voters now agree that Britain should take control of it's borders after Brexit, end the jurisdiction of the ECJ and pay little or nothing to leave.
It is a major survey of 20,000 people who now prefer a hard brexit.
Almost 70% of people said they preferred a deal with the EU which ends membership of the single market, ongoing payments and continued freedom of movement
A similar percentage prefer a 'no deal' to a soft Brexit.
Maybe opinion is moving away from the EU and those fighting to remain may be losing the argument.
But note I have said 'maybe'
Either we stay in and fully participate, or walkaway completely. A half in / half out Brexit is not tenable.
I have never supported Corbyn's economics, though can understand why he is popular. I have always opposed borrowing. I hate debt in all its forms.
I accept it as a nessecary evil when for investment, and provided there is a realistic plan to pay it back over a short timespan.0 -
Google for "Blair Force One" if you want to see a truly spectacular waste of taxpayers money.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I would add it does not help my attitude to the EU when Juncker pays £24,000 for a private flying taxi from Brussels to Rome when there are many direct flights between the two daily. But socialists always run out of other people's moneyBig_G_NorthWales said:
No - I am wanting out but not prepared to be up tight about it as the negotiations proceed. It does feel as if there is some indication that the EU does not have all the cards and it could be that the majority do not care too much about the negatives, they just want the deed doneBenpointer said:
No it's just foolish to think that UK bureaucracy is any better than EU bureacracy.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Always ready to do down UK PLCBenpointer said:
Whereas the UK dealt with BSE in an exemplary manner of course!Big_G_NorthWales said:The EU egg scandal seems to be extending to chicken meat. But no problem the EU are meeting on the 26th September to discuss the issue.
Clear demonstration that they are too cumbersome an organisation to deal with it now as an emergency
Have you flip-flopped back to Leave again? I thought you'd changed to a reluctant Remainer last month?!0 -
That is abject waste. No more than £400 each is justified. The Commission are just burning other peoples money for their own benefitwilliamglenn said:
Juncker and team. The cost per person was £2,650.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I would add it does not help my attitude to the EU when Juncker pays £24,000 for a private flying taxi from Brussels to Rome when there are many direct flights between the two daily. But socialists always run out of other people's moneyBig_G_NorthWales said:
No - I am wanting out but not prepared to be up tight about it as the negotiations proceed. It does feel as if there is some indication that the EU does not have all the cards and it could be that the majority do not care too much about the negatives, they just want the deed doneBenpointer said:
No it's just foolish to think that UK bureaucracy is any better than EU bureacracy.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Always ready to do down UK PLCBenpointer said:
Whereas the UK dealt with BSE in an exemplary manner of course!Big_G_NorthWales said:The EU egg scandal seems to be extending to chicken meat. But no problem the EU are meeting on the 26th September to discuss the issue.
Clear demonstration that they are too cumbersome an organisation to deal with it now as an emergency
Have you flip-flopped back to Leave again? I thought you'd changed to a reluctant Remainer last month?!0 -
Fact is the lib dems are busted flush because of tuition fees and the coalition. They played the insurgent protest card for the 00's and the reality of being in power then caught up with them.PeterC said:
I do not see why a new party would fare any better than the LibDems. In 2017 they were the ideal anti-Brexit choice, yet came nowhere, and that with about a quarter of voters being strongly opposed to Brexit. This is surely driven by the LibDems' lack of credibility as potential winners, the oldest of the obstacles faced by the Liberals. This in turn is driven by FPTP.nielh said:
If you believe in remaining you should go for it because what have you got to lose? What Chapman is ranting about makes quite a lot of sense. If a new party gets 20 seats, it has the balance of power.PeterC said:
any sustained attention. The only problem is that I'm not sure that we do political heavyweights anymore.Benpointer said:
Mail."PeterC said:
What is on display is a total lack of judgement. He could have put forward his views in a measured and - dare I say it - statesmanlike fashion and have been given the chance of hearing. Instead he is just lashing out in all directions and in the process making his cause appear ridiculous.GIN1138 said:James Chapman's Twitter is a complete car crash today...
The man is totally unhinged!
I expect serious Remoaners will want dissociate themselves from him. He is certainly the very last person you would want to launch a new party!
I assume the only reas
It's going to need someone with a bit more gravitas and depth to kick this off properly I think. David Miliband maybe?
A unified centre force would need close on 30pc of the poll even to begin to achieve lift-off.
People should indeed stop thinking that a new party would automatically suffer the same fate as the SDP. It's fate could in fact be far worse. Even winning only a handful of seats it's influence could nonetheless be highly significant in the way it might alter the balance of support between the two main parties. This factor has been important if not critical in most of the elections since 1974.
Also, Farron?
0 -
The needle barely shifts in either direction on any of the options. People just don't have a strong opinion about it.CarlottaVance said:williamglenn said:
Check the Buzzfeed link. People are not too bothered if we don't leave until 2025. It doesn't really matter to them, however they define what they think 'Brexit' should mean.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Do they care. They just want out by the looks of itSean_F said:
Does it matter?williamglenn said:
Did any of the people they surveyed have a workable solution for the Irish border?Big_G_NorthWales said:Has anyone mentioned tonight's report in the Telegraph on line that the majority of remain voters now agree that Britain should take control of it's borders after Brexit, end the jurisdiction of the ECJ and pay little or nothing to leave.
It is a major survey of 20,000 people who now prefer a hard brexit.
Almost 70% of people said they preferred a deal with the EU which ends membership of the single market, ongoing payments and continued freedom of movement
A similar percentage prefer a 'no deal' to a soft Brexit.
Maybe opinion is moving away from the EU and those fighting to remain may be losing the argument.
But note I have said 'maybe'
Overall, Leave voters would most prefer Brexit to be completed by 2019, but have no objection at all to a delay to 2021, and only by a slight margin oppose a delay as far as 2025 – a trend almost identical to that of Remainers.
Majority Remain support is to leave by 2020.....0 -
They are seriously good graphs, though raising as many questions as answers.Benpointer said:
They may be really cool in Chrome - they are really blank in Safari!Ishmael_Z said:
Bottom of buzzfeed page:Benpointer said:
The Telegraph seems to be reporting a Buzzfeed report of an as yet unpbulished survey by the LSE and Oxford Uni. See link...Ishmael_Z said:Sorry @Big_G_NorthWales, I missed it.
Link for others as blind as me http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/11/remain-voters-now-back-taking-control-borders-leaving-ecj-paying/
https://www.buzzfeed.com/jamesball/remain-and-leave-voters-are-surprisingly-united-on-backing
Interestingly the Telegraph says it's a survey of 20,000 people, Buzzfeed says 3,000... What's the betting LSE and Oxford say they surveyed 300? lol! [See EDIT below]
Feels like potentially fake news until we see the official survey.
EDIT: The Buzzfeed article states:
The researchers collected six data points each from 3,293 people, resulting in a dataset of 19,758 choices. An earlier version of this story misstated that the researchers surveyed 20,000 people.
CORRECTION
August 11, 2017, at 5:17 p.m.
The researchers collected six data points each from 3,293 people, resulting in a dataset of 19,758 choices. An earlier version of this story misstated that the researchers surveyed 20,000 people.
The graphs in the article are really, really cool (in form as opposed to content)0 -
Given thats what neither the UK or Ireland want that would be at the EU's insistence, surely?rcs1000 said:
If the deal were to result in a hard border with IrelandSean_F said:
Does it matter?williamglenn said:
Did any of the people they surveyed have a workable solution for the Irish border?Big_G_NorthWales said:Has anyone mentioned tonight's report in the Telegraph on line that the majority of remain voters now agree that Britain should take control of it's borders after Brexit, end the jurisdiction of the ECJ and pay little or nothing to leave.
It is a major survey of 20,000 people who now prefer a hard brexit.
Almost 70% of people said they preferred a deal with the EU which ends membership of the single market, ongoing payments and continued freedom of movement
A similar percentage prefer a 'no deal' to a soft Brexit.
Maybe opinion is moving away from the EU and those fighting to remain may be losing the argument.
But note I have said 'maybe'0 -
Which airline charges £2,650 for a flight from Brussels to Rome?williamglenn said:
Juncker and team. The cost per person was £2,650.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I would add it does not help my attitude to the EU when Juncker pays £24,000 for a private flying taxi from Brussels to Rome when there are many direct flights between the two daily. But socialists always run out of other people's moneyBig_G_NorthWales said:
No - I am wanting out but not prepared to be up tight about it as the negotiations proceed. It does feel as if there is some indication that the EU does not have all the cards and it could be that the majority do not care too much about the negatives, they just want the deed doneBenpointer said:
No it's just foolish to think that UK bureaucracy is any better than EU bureacracy.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Always ready to do down UK PLCBenpointer said:
Whereas the UK dealt with BSE in an exemplary manner of course!Big_G_NorthWales said:The EU egg scandal seems to be extending to chicken meat. But no problem the EU are meeting on the 26th September to discuss the issue.
Clear demonstration that they are too cumbersome an organisation to deal with it now as an emergency
Have you flip-flopped back to Leave again? I thought you'd changed to a reluctant Remainer last month?!0 -
Correction - quick search is no more than £150 returnBig_G_NorthWales said:
That is abject waste. No more than £400 each is justified. The Commission are just burning other peoples money for their own benefitwilliamglenn said:
Juncker and team. The cost per person was £2,650.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I would add it does not help my attitude to the EU when Juncker pays £24,000 for a private flying taxi from Brussels to Rome when there are many direct flights between the two daily. But socialists always run out of other people's moneyBig_G_NorthWales said:
No - I am wanting out but not prepared to be up tight about it as the negotiations proceed. It does feel as if there is some indication that the EU does not have all the cards and it could be that the majority do not care too much about the negatives, they just want the deed doneBenpointer said:
No it's just foolish to think that UK bureaucracy is any better than EU bureacracy.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Always ready to do down UK PLCBenpointer said:
Whereas the UK dealt with BSE in an exemplary manner of course!Big_G_NorthWales said:The EU egg scandal seems to be extending to chicken meat. But no problem the EU are meeting on the 26th September to discuss the issue.
Clear demonstration that they are too cumbersome an organisation to deal with it now as an emergency
Have you flip-flopped back to Leave again? I thought you'd changed to a reluctant Remainer last month?!0
