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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Back Trump to be impeached in 2019 at 18-1

SystemSystem Posts: 12,114
edited July 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Back Trump to be impeached in 2019 at 18-1

Donald Trump is an unusual president. Unusual in the same way that a triceratops turning up at Crufts would be unusual. He is not merely of a different species; his whole manner and understanding of the role are utterly alien to DC.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,690
    First Post!
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    This latest N Korean test is sounding like a very big deal. If the details so far are right that can easily hit all of the US west coast, and it won't need much extra to have Washington & NY in range.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,732
    Andrew said:

    This latest N Korean test is sounding like a very big deal. If the details so far are right that can easily hit all of the US west coast, and it won't need much extra to have Washington & NY in range.

    Ah crap.
  • MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651
    edited July 2017
    RobD said:

    Andrew said:

    This latest N Korean test is sounding like a very big deal. If the details so far are right that can easily hit all of the US west coast, and it won't need much extra to have Washington & NY in range.

    Ah crap.
    Washington Post: "David Wright, co-director of the Global Security Program at the Union of Concerned Scientists [said] 'Los Angeles, Denver, Chicago appear to be well within range of this missile, and that Boston and New York may be just within range' ... Washington may still be just out of range, he added."

    The fact that they are doing so many launches, and that this one is from an unexpected location so indicating a whole new site that was previously unknown, can't be good news either. Must indicate a very active programme and the testing surely increases the rate at which they advance.

    I'd assumed that a missile that could strike much of the continental USA would be a game-changer in terms of the American response. I don't like the idea of my theory being put to the test ...
  • MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651
    edited July 2017
    FPT
    Charles said:


    Minimal scientific benefit from a single case study.

    For it to be meaningful it needs to be a randomised controlled trial, preferably double-blinded.

    How does it work for the very rarest illnesses or procedures?

    I have a vague awareness that some experimental heart surgeries have to deal with very small sample sizes (in fact I guess they all do, when you first start doing them), with careful statistical rules for discontinuing the procedure if the results to date indicate it's problematic, and obviously there are problems double-blinding heart surgery. But the rarer the condition, the lower the power even the largest studies could attain, and even moderate effect sizes would struggle for statistical significance.

    (The hypothetical scenario I was suggesting involved basic research, rather than a clinical trial to seek approval for a purported treatment. Does that make a difference? If all you want to find out to understand the illness a bit more is "Does doing X result in Y for patients with condition Z?" and Z is so rare that we seldom get the opportunity to try X out - in fact by the time we do, we've possibly moved on from wanting to try out X1 to wanting to see the effects of X2 or X3 instead - at what stage do the ethics regulators say "you can't justify your interventions since your research programme simply won't be able to produce a useful evidence base - you will always lack data points, and you can't demonstrate that the X you are trying is likely to have a clinical benefit"?)
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,769
    Andrew said:

    This latest N Korean test is sounding like a very big deal. If the details so far are right that can easily hit all of the US west coast, and it won't need much extra to have Washington & NY in range.

    Well we're well within range if that is the case.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,732
    Pulpstar said:

    Andrew said:

    This latest N Korean test is sounding like a very big deal. If the details so far are right that can easily hit all of the US west coast, and it won't need much extra to have Washington & NY in range.

    Well we're well within range if that is the case.
    I doubt Jong-Un cares about that little backwater off the coast of Europe. ;)
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    RobD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Andrew said:

    This latest N Korean test is sounding like a very big deal. If the details so far are right that can easily hit all of the US west coast, and it won't need much extra to have Washington & NY in range.

    Well we're well within range if that is the case.
    I doubt Jong-Un cares about that little backwater off the coast of Europe. ;)
    It's dead in the water anyway isn't it? After the Taoiseach told them what to do yesterday? (Though why its the UK with the problem and not the RoI is very far from clear.....I suspect it will be the EU insisting on customs checks...)
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,732
    edited July 2017

    RobD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Andrew said:

    This latest N Korean test is sounding like a very big deal. If the details so far are right that can easily hit all of the US west coast, and it won't need much extra to have Washington & NY in range.

    Well we're well within range if that is the case.
    I doubt Jong-Un cares about that little backwater off the coast of Europe. ;)
    It's dead in the water anyway isn't it? After the Taoiseach told them what to do yesterday? (Though why its the UK with the problem and not the RoI is very far from clear.....I suspect it will be the EU insisting on customs checks...)
    The utter destruction of Brussels would make an excellent demonstration of the new weapon system.... said no dictator ever. :D

    As for Ireland, their ire should be directed towards the EU, surely? The UK and Ireland both want the same thing.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    FPT

    Charles said:


    Minimal scientific benefit from a single case study.

    For it to be meaningful it needs to be a randomised controlled trial, preferably double-blinded.

    How does it work for the very rarest illnesses or procedures?

    I have a vague awareness that some experimental heart surgeries have to deal with very small sample sizes (in fact I guess they all do, when you first start doing them), with careful statistical rules for discontinuing the procedure if the results to date indicate it's problematic, and obviously there are problems double-blinding heart surgery. But the rarer the condition, the lower the power even the largest studies could attain, and even moderate effect sizes would struggle for statistical significance.

    (The hypothetical scenario I was suggesting involved basic research, rather than a clinical trial to seek approval for a purported treatment. Does that make a difference? If all you want to find out to understand the illness a bit more is "Does doing X result in Y for patients with condition Z?" and Z is so rare that we seldom get the opportunity to try X out - in fact by the time we do, we've possibly moved on from wanting to try out X1 to wanting to see the effects of X2 or X3 instead - at what stage do the ethics regulators say "you can't justify your interventions since your research programme simply won't be able to produce a useful evidence base - you will always lack data points, and you can't demonstrate that the X you are trying is likely to have a clinical benefit"?)
    There are statistical rules on everything but the regulators are pretty creative where it comes to orphan and ultra orphan diseases (I'm on the board of an orphan company)

    From an ethics perspective in ultra orphan, a theoretical rationale for why it might work is a good starting point ("I hope it might cross the blood brain barrier" is not sufficient)
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Andrew said:

    This latest N Korean test is sounding like a very big deal. If the details so far are right that can easily hit all of the US west coast, and it won't need much extra to have Washington & NY in range.

    Well we're well within range if that is the case.
    I doubt Jong-Un cares about that little backwater off the coast of Europe. ;)
    It's dead in the water anyway isn't it? After the Taoiseach told them what to do yesterday? (Though why its the UK with the problem and not the RoI is very far from clear.....I suspect it will be the EU insisting on customs checks...)
    As for Ireland, their ire should be directed towards the EU, surely? The UK and Ireland both want the same thing.
    I suspect the new boy wants to show his EU chums how tough he is....
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,732
    Scott_P said:
    Why does changing the law require 60 votes in the senate? I thought filibusters had been abolished for all but supreme court appointments.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    FPT

    Charles said:


    Minimal scientific benefit from a single case study.

    For it to be meaningful it needs to be a randomised controlled trial, preferably double-blinded.

    How does it work for the very rarest illnesses or procedures?

    I have a vague awareness that some experimental heart surgeries have to deal with very small sample sizes (in fact I guess they all do, when you first start doing them), with careful statistical rules for discontinuing the procedure if the results to date indicate it's problematic, and obviously there are problems double-blinding heart surgery. But the rarer the condition, the lower the power even the largest studies could attain, and even moderate effect sizes would struggle for statistical significance.

    (The hypothetical scenario I was suggesting involved basic research, rather than a clinical trial to seek approval for a purported treatment. Does that make a difference? If all you want to find out to understand the illness a bit more is "Does doing X result in Y for patients with condition Z?" and Z is so rare that we seldom get the opportunity to try X out - in fact by the time we do, we've possibly moved on from wanting to try out X1 to wanting to see the effects of X2 or X3 instead - at what stage do the ethics regulators say "you can't justify your interventions since your research programme simply won't be able to produce a useful evidence base - you will always lack data points, and you can't demonstrate that the X you are trying is likely to have a clinical benefit"?)
    I think that the proposed nucleoside treatment has never been used for the condition in a human, or even an animal model of the disease. No physician believes that it would reverse the major brain damage, not even the American professor who proposed it. He never examined the child, nor even read the casenotes, or reviewed the brain imaging. This is not a treatment effective for the condition that Charlie had.

    There is a significant chance of a further baby being affected, as this is a mitochondrial disease mutation. Testing on an animal model in order to prepare for treatment from birth for the next child, before the disease advances to the terminal phase, might be a reasonable next approach.

    Mitochondrial DNA mutations do lend themselves to another approach, as the DNA is not in the nucleus. That would be to use an embryo with three parents, a maternal ova, paternal sperm and the mitochondria from an egg donor. There is some interest in this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-18393682

  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    On topic, 2019 does look a good year for an impeachment, though PP limited me to £2.24. I seem to now be on their radar after doing a little too well from PB tips.

    Trump's behaviour is increasingly incoherent and bizarre, though not yet to the point that section 4 of the 25th amendment would be suitable:

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/25th-amendment-used-remove-trump-215814401.html

    To my mind the betting value is on Trump not completing his first term at 2.06 with Betfair, and I also have some on a 2018 exit there.

    Trump is turning America into a laughing stock. When even the boyscouts turn against you, surely the endgame is underway. Putin has managed to damage the USA with his trolls far more than Korea with its missiles.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Scott_P said:
    Yes and no.

    McCain may well have saved the midterms for the GOP who would otherwise face millions of voters who'd just lost (or were about to lose) their health cover,
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    OT -- hackers at Def Con in Las Vegas hack an impressive variety of electronic voting machines.
    https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/07/29/us_voting_machines_hacking/

    Not that Russian or other state-sponsored hackers would be so unsporting.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,216

    RobD said:

    Andrew said:

    This latest N Korean test is sounding like a very big deal. If the details so far are right that can easily hit all of the US west coast, and it won't need much extra to have Washington & NY in range.

    Ah crap.
    Washington Post: "David Wright, co-director of the Global Security Program at the Union of Concerned Scientists [said] 'Los Angeles, Denver, Chicago appear to be well within range of this missile, and that Boston and New York may be just within range' ... Washington may still be just out of range, he added."

    The fact that they are doing so many launches, and that this one is from an unexpected location so indicating a whole new site that was previously unknown, can't be good news either. Must indicate a very active programme and the testing surely increases the rate at which they advance.

    I'd assumed that a missile that could strike much of the continental USA would be a game-changer in terms of the American response. I don't like the idea of my theory being put to the test ...
    A persuasive article arguing that we should assume NK already has the capability to deliver a nuclear weapon to the US:
    https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/07/north-korea-trump-missile/535305/
    Remember, this is essentially 1950s technology, whose development must be made considerably easier with modern computing resources, so any sufficiently determined state can get there.
    (One thing I didn't know was that the Chinese used oak to construct the heat shields of their re-entry vehicles...)
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,725

    On topic, 2019 does look a good year for an impeachment, though PP limited me to £2.24. I seem to now be on their radar after doing a little too well from PB tips.

    Trump's behaviour is increasingly incoherent and bizarre, though not yet to the point that section 4 of the 25th amendment would be suitable:

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/25th-amendment-used-remove-trump-215814401.html

    To my mind the betting value is on Trump not completing his first term at 2.06 with Betfair, and I also have some on a 2018 exit there.

    Trump is turning America into a laughing stock. When even the boyscouts turn against you, surely the endgame is underway. Putin has managed to damage the USA with his trolls far more than Korea with its missiles.

    The bet is on the process proceeding to a full and successful conclusion, not simply the attempt being made. That remains a long shot, particularly within any particular calendar year.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,662
    Good morning, everyone.

    Hmm. I'm not sure about this. Long-ish odds, but isn't Trump likelier to make a deal to not run again?
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,514

    On topic, 2019 does look a good year for an impeachment, though PP limited me to £2.24. I seem to now be on their radar after doing a little too well from PB tips.

    PP limited me to £11.19 on this bet. You must be doing better than me with PP. I'm currently about £500 up with them.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    IanB2 said:

    On topic, 2019 does look a good year for an impeachment, though PP limited me to £2.24. I seem to now be on their radar after doing a little too well from PB tips.

    Trump's behaviour is increasingly incoherent and bizarre, though not yet to the point that section 4 of the 25th amendment would be suitable:

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/25th-amendment-used-remove-trump-215814401.html

    To my mind the betting value is on Trump not completing his first term at 2.06 with Betfair, and I also have some on a 2018 exit there.

    Trump is turning America into a laughing stock. When even the boyscouts turn against you, surely the endgame is underway. Putin has managed to damage the USA with his trolls far more than Korea with its missiles.

    The bet is on the process proceeding to a full and successful conclusion, not simply the attempt being made. That remains a long shot, particularly within any particular calendar year.
    Yes, I think that correct. Both resignation and the grim reaper are more likely causes of an early exit, so I think the BF exit markets are better.

  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Barnesian said:

    On topic, 2019 does look a good year for an impeachment, though PP limited me to £2.24. I seem to now be on their radar after doing a little too well from PB tips.

    PP limited me to £11.19 on this bet. You must be doing better than me with PP. I'm currently about £500 up with them.
    I shall look at their football markets. I lose a bit there,so might get me back in their good books. :)
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,068

    Scott_P said:
    Yes and no.

    McCain may well have saved the midterms for the GOP who would otherwise face millions of voters who'd just lost (or were about to lose) their health cover,
    I agree. Most Republicans seem unable to appreciate how blue collar their support is, these days.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,302
    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:
    Yes and no.

    McCain may well have saved the midterms for the GOP who would otherwise face millions of voters who'd just lost (or were about to lose) their health cover,
    I agree. Most Republicans seem unable to appreciate how blue collar their support is, these days.
    a quick invasion of North Korea and all those negative ratings will just disappear
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,514
    edited July 2017
    IanB2 said:

    On topic, 2019 does look a good year for an impeachment, though PP limited me to £2.24. I seem to now be on their radar after doing a little too well from PB tips.

    Trump's behaviour is increasingly incoherent and bizarre, though not yet to the point that section 4 of the 25th amendment would be suitable:

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/25th-amendment-used-remove-trump-215814401.html

    To my mind the betting value is on Trump not completing his first term at 2.06 with Betfair, and I also have some on a 2018 exit there.

    Trump is turning America into a laughing stock. When even the boyscouts turn against you, surely the endgame is underway. Putin has managed to damage the USA with his trolls far more than Korea with its missiles.

    The bet is on the process proceeding to a full and successful conclusion, not simply the attempt being made. That remains a long shot, particularly within any particular calendar year.
    PP quote " He will be deemed to be impeached when the House of Representatives pass a vote for impeachment".

    It doesn't require the Senate to vote for his removal. There is currently a 33% chance that Democrats will gain a majority in the House in 2018 (according to the betting on Betfair)

    I think a good bet is to lay Trump (at 3.5) as next President in 2020. He is currently favourite ahead of Pence, Warren and Kamala Harris.

    To become President he needs to:
    a) actually want a second term (he's not enjoying it, he's not getting the adulation he craves)
    b) win the primaries (he's been sussed out. The same shtick isn't going to be as successful)
    c) win the election (he's not up against Hillary).

    I make that 50%x30%x30% i.e 4.5% chance.

  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    I'm out of the country so I can't check the betting rules. Is the bet for the impeachment vote to be held or to be passed?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,662
    As an aside, I said yesterday that reading a biography of John was masochistic for an Englishman. On the plus side, it does show that things really could be worse :p
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,514

    I'm out of the country so I can't check the betting rules. Is the bet for the impeachment vote to be held or to be passed?

    To be passed.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,514

    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:
    Yes and no.

    McCain may well have saved the midterms for the GOP who would otherwise face millions of voters who'd just lost (or were about to lose) their health cover,
    I agree. Most Republicans seem unable to appreciate how blue collar their support is, these days.
    a quick invasion of North Korea and all those negative ratings will just disappear
    ... along with the rest of us.
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,777

    Scott_P said:
    Yes and no.

    McCain may well have saved the midterms for the GOP who would otherwise face millions of voters who'd just lost (or were about to lose) their health cover,
    They'd already showed their hand. The damage is done and the votes can be hung around their necks.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,302
    Barnesian said:

    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:
    Yes and no.

    McCain may well have saved the midterms for the GOP who would otherwise face millions of voters who'd just lost (or were about to lose) their health cover,
    I agree. Most Republicans seem unable to appreciate how blue collar their support is, these days.
    a quick invasion of North Korea and all those negative ratings will just disappear
    ... along with the rest of us.
    unlikely

    the only thing in N America which will make us all disappear is the Yellowsrone caldera

    assuming of course the Palma tsunami doesnt get us first
  • prh47bridgeprh47bridge Posts: 451
    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Why does changing the law require 60 votes in the senate? I thought filibusters had been abolished for all but supreme court appointments.
    Filibusters have only been abolished for executive branch and judicial nominees except the Supreme Court. They can still be used on legislation.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,188
    Scott_P said:
    I don't get the impression Republican senators are very angry with McCain. They prefer to discuss anything other than healthcare funding right now. McCain let them off the hook.

    The Republican base is another matter.

    McCain is an old man and an ill man and no longer cares what other people think. The repeal is a dog that he is willing to treat as such. He has done his party a favour.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658

    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Why does changing the law require 60 votes in the senate? I thought filibusters had been abolished for all but supreme court appointments.
    Filibusters have only been abolished for executive branch and judicial nominees except the Supreme Court. They can still be used on legislation.
    I thought even Supreme court filibusters had now been abolished as a result of the recent nomination.

    I think the point about filibusters is that they could ALL be abolished but any party doing so would be doing so for short term gain at the expense of long term loss of power when in a minority. Because clearly any majoritarian party is never going to voluntarily restate it.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    FF43 said:

    Scott_P said:
    I don't get the impression Republican senators are very angry with McCain. They prefer to discuss anything other than healthcare funding right now. McCain let them off the hook.

    The Republican base is another matter.

    McCain is an old man and an ill man and no longer cares what other people think. The repeal is a dog that he is willing to treat as such. He has done his party a favour.
    There were stories that several Republicans only voted yes on assurances that the revised bill wouldn't pass the House.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Much of this debt is going to be written off, as even its defenders acknowledge. The only question seems to be how much misery is inflicted first, and how much electoral damage is done first.

    Jezza seems to be the first politician to realise the generational injustice, and the need to ameliorate it, even if writing off all the debt is not an easy commitment to fund. In another five years it becomes even harder to write off. This is a ticking time bomb.

  • prh47bridgeprh47bridge Posts: 451
    alex. said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Why does changing the law require 60 votes in the senate? I thought filibusters had been abolished for all but supreme court appointments.
    Filibusters have only been abolished for executive branch and judicial nominees except the Supreme Court. They can still be used on legislation.
    I thought even Supreme court filibusters had now been abolished as a result of the recent nomination.

    I think the point about filibusters is that they could ALL be abolished but any party doing so would be doing so for short term gain at the expense of long term loss of power when in a minority. Because clearly any majoritarian party is never going to voluntarily restate it.
    Sorry, you are right. Filibusters have been abolished for all nominations but they still remain in place for legislation.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,302

    Much of this debt is going to be written off, as even its defenders acknowledge. The only question seems to be how much misery is inflicted first, and how much electoral damage is done first.

    Jezza seems to be the first politician to realise the generational injustice, and the need to ameliorate it, even if writing off all the debt is not an easy commitment to fund. In another five years it becomes even harder to write off. This is a ticking time bomb.

    fraid so

    were simply pretending this is a loan when all it is is deferred taxation which is going to hit todays twenty year olds twice. Once as a loan and then again when they have to pay for the loan defaults in their 50s.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658

    Much of this debt is going to be written off, as even its defenders acknowledge. The only question seems to be how much misery is inflicted first, and how much electoral damage is done first.

    Jezza seems to be the first politician to realise the generational injustice, and the need to ameliorate it, even if writing off all the debt is not an easy commitment to fund. In another five years it becomes even harder to write off. This is a ticking time bomb.

    fraid so

    were simply pretending this is a loan when all it is is deferred taxation which is going to hit todays twenty year olds twice. Once as a loan and then again when they have to pay for the loan defaults in their 50s.
    They should make loan repayments tax deductible.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    One of the problems with the debate about Student Debt is that it is conducted on the basis that it is all about fees. When actually it is as much about the associated costs for people going to university. Student fees could be abolished tomorrow and there would still be an enormous issue around how to fund the living costs of the student population. And bear in mind (and probably as a result of being able to secure large living cost loans) the quality and cost of student accommodation is on a different level to what was commonplace 20-30 years ago.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Why does changing the law require 60 votes in the senate? I thought filibusters had been abolished for all but supreme court appointments.
    Other way round. Abolished for supreme court noms, still there for everything else.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    alex. said:

    Much of this debt is going to be written off, as even its defenders acknowledge. The only question seems to be how much misery is inflicted first, and how much electoral damage is done first.

    Jezza seems to be the first politician to realise the generational injustice, and the need to ameliorate it, even if writing off all the debt is not an easy commitment to fund. In another five years it becomes even harder to write off. This is a ticking time bomb.

    fraid so

    were simply pretending this is a loan when all it is is deferred taxation which is going to hit todays twenty year olds twice. Once as a loan and then again when they have to pay for the loan defaults in their 50s.
    They should make loan repayments tax deductible.
    There are several options, reducing the interest rates back to the original rate, rather than the higher rates now implemented, would be a start. Negative interest rates for those making overpayments better still.

    The whole SLC system is PFI reborn, an expensive way to keep debt off balance sheet, that will come back to haunt us all. It is characteristic of the short termism that our treasury follows.

    I hate debt with a vengeance. It is the chains that prevent us from realising our potential.

  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,656
    IanB2 said:

    On topic, 2019 does look a good year for an impeachment, though PP limited me to £2.24. I seem to now be on their radar after doing a little too well from PB tips.

    Trump's behaviour is increasingly incoherent and bizarre, though not yet to the point that section 4 of the 25th amendment would be suitable:

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/25th-amendment-used-remove-trump-215814401.html

    To my mind the betting value is on Trump not completing his first term at 2.06 with Betfair, and I also have some on a 2018 exit there.

    Trump is turning America into a laughing stock. When even the boyscouts turn against you, surely the endgame is underway. Putin has managed to damage the USA with his trolls far more than Korea with its missiles.

    The bet is on the process proceeding to a full and successful conclusion, not simply the attempt being made. That remains a long shot, particularly within any particular calendar year.
    No, the bet is simply on the House voting to impeach, which only requires a simple majority. It doesn't require the Senate to convict - which is a much tougher ask given that a 2/3rds majority is required.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,662
    F1: Massa unwell. Possible Di Resta will get his car.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658

    alex. said:

    Much of this debt is going to be written off, as even its defenders acknowledge. The only question seems to be how much misery is inflicted first, and how much electoral damage is done first.

    Jezza seems to be the first politician to realise the generational injustice, and the need to ameliorate it, even if writing off all the debt is not an easy commitment to fund. In another five years it becomes even harder to write off. This is a ticking time bomb.

    fraid so

    were simply pretending this is a loan when all it is is deferred taxation which is going to hit todays twenty year olds twice. Once as a loan and then again when they have to pay for the loan defaults in their 50s.
    They should make loan repayments tax deductible.
    There are several options, reducing the interest rates back to the original rate, rather than the higher rates now implemented, would be a start. Negative interest rates for those making overpayments better still.

    The whole SLC system is PFI reborn, an expensive way to keep debt off balance sheet, that will come back to haunt us all. It is characteristic of the short termism that our treasury follows.

    I hate debt with a vengeance. It is the chains that prevent us from realising our potential.

    But arguably the market based interest rates are logical, because they result in more of the burden falling on those who are most successful ("get the greatest benefit"). Because the repayment rate is constant regardless, they make no difference to those who would have had their debts written off anyway.

  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    When people say the student tuition fees rise hasn't put our people off going to university try skip over the bit that the dropout rate has been rising since 2011, and at a greater rate amongst those from the poorest backgrounds
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,582
    I think Trump will soldier on, making the US look ever more ridiculous and hollowing out its already dwindling global influence. My guess is that the Democrats will under-perform quite spectacularly in the 2018 mid-terms and that this will be seen, rightly, as a big victory for Trump. That will make him untouchable. If he stands in 2020 - which is far from certain - I reckon he'll win. In many ways the US is ceasing to be a functioning country. The culture wars there are so intense that there is very little that now unites those living in the North East, the West Coast and the big cities of the interior with the rest of the population. The Americans have always been brilliant at reinvention, but they have one hell of a job to do to get themselves out of their current mess.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,139
    Nigelb said:

    RobD said:

    Andrew said:

    This latest N Korean test is sounding like a very big deal. If the details so far are right that can easily hit all of the US west coast, and it won't need much extra to have Washington & NY in range.

    Ah crap.
    Washington Post: "David Wright, co-director of the Global Security Program at the Union of Concerned Scientists [said] 'Los Angeles, Denver, Chicago appear to be well within range of this missile, and that Boston and New York may be just within range' ... Washington may still be just out of range, he added."

    The fact that they are doing so many launches, and that this one is from an unexpected location so indicating a whole new site that was previously unknown, can't be good news either. Must indicate a very active programme and the testing surely increases the rate at which they advance.

    I'd assumed that a missile that could strike much of the continental USA would be a game-changer in terms of the American response. I don't like the idea of my theory being put to the test ...
    A persuasive article arguing that we should assume NK already has the capability to deliver a nuclear weapon to the US:
    https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/07/north-korea-trump-missile/535305/
    Remember, this is essentially 1950s technology, whose development must be made considerably easier with modern computing resources, so any sufficiently determined state can get there.
    (One thing I didn't know was that the Chinese used oak to construct the heat shields of their re-entry vehicles...)
    NASA looked at using balsa wood as insulation for the Saturn V tanks. They didn't as it turned out there wasn't enough balsa production, and it was hard to get the desired quality:

    https://history.nasa.gov/SP-4206/ch6.htm

    Oak as a heat shield is actually a reasonable suggestion. Heavy woods char, and the charred material is as good an insulator as the wood. When the charred material is blown away, it reveals more oak and the process continues. It's heavy, though.

    The Russians had massive trouble developing heat shields for their early missiles, and the technology lagged severely behind their rockets (mainly as they had no way of testing materials without actually flying them, unlike, AIUI, the Americans who could test on the ground).
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,582

    Much of this debt is going to be written off, as even its defenders acknowledge. The only question seems to be how much misery is inflicted first, and how much electoral damage is done first.

    Jezza seems to be the first politician to realise the generational injustice, and the need to ameliorate it, even if writing off all the debt is not an easy commitment to fund. In another five years it becomes even harder to write off. This is a ticking time bomb.

    Yep - it wasn't the debt write-off that won Corbyn so much support, it was the fact he was talking about the issue - and others that affect the young - in the first place. When you have been ignored for so long, even that is enough to give you some hope, at least.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,582
    I have been monitoring it, don't you worry ;-)

    Am off to the SW next week and anticipate seeing semi-desert instead of green rolling hills. The recent rain has saved our southern British bacon for the moment, but things are not great here either drought-wise. Another dry winter and we'll be in trouble.

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,662
    F1: Massa gets the medical all-clear, so he will be in the car today.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,690
    IanB2 said:

    On topic, 2019 does look a good year for an impeachment, though PP limited me to £2.24. I seem to now be on their radar after doing a little too well from PB tips.

    Trump's behaviour is increasingly incoherent and bizarre, though not yet to the point that section 4 of the 25th amendment would be suitable:

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/25th-amendment-used-remove-trump-215814401.html

    To my mind the betting value is on Trump not completing his first term at 2.06 with Betfair, and I also have some on a 2018 exit there.

    Trump is turning America into a laughing stock. When even the boyscouts turn against you, surely the endgame is underway. Putin has managed to damage the USA with his trolls far more than Korea with its missiles.

    The bet is on the process proceeding to a full and successful conclusion, not simply the attempt being made. That remains a long shot, particularly within any particular calendar year.
    My view is that a health issue would be by far the most likely way for Trump to leave the White House. He's in his 70s, he's overweight, he doesn't exercise, and he's in an incredibly stressful job. While it isn't a 50% chance, a major issue in the next three and a half years has to be around 25%.
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138
    Is there some kind of mechanism in place in case the President of the USA goes mad? Whose would be the responsibility for making the decision? Or for asking the decision to be made?

    Asking for a friend, of course....
  • 619619 Posts: 1,784
    alex. said:

    FF43 said:

    Scott_P said:
    I don't get the impression Republican senators are very angry with McCain. They prefer to discuss anything other than healthcare funding right now. McCain let them off the hook.

    The Republican base is another matter.

    McCain is an old man and an ill man and no longer cares what other people think. The repeal is a dog that he is willing to treat as such. He has done his party a favour.
    There were stories that several Republicans only voted yes on assurances that the revised bill wouldn't pass the House.
    Not so mucj stories: several republicans were openly saying it!
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    PClipp said:

    Is there some kind of mechanism in place in case the President of the USA goes mad? Whose would be the responsibility for making the decision? Or for asking the decision to be made?

    Asking for a friend, of course....

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/25th-amendment-used-remove-trump-215814401.html

    Section 4 of the 25th amendment is the provision, but that is also not straight forward.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,662
    Mr. Clipp, there is a means by which a president can be removed from office, but I think it requires large majorities in the Senate and Congress, as well (maybe) as the VP agreeing. Came into being after... Reagan, I think, when people worried what would happen if a president started to lose his faculties.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,690
    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:
    Yes and no.

    McCain may well have saved the midterms for the GOP who would otherwise face millions of voters who'd just lost (or were about to lose) their health cover,
    I agree. Most Republicans seem unable to appreciate how blue collar their support is, these days.
    When we owned a place in Long Island, we used a lovely local lady to help with babysitting the kids. We became friends with her and husband who had been a skilled machinist before his company closed down their US operations and shifted them abroad. He became a sheriff, but it paid substantially less well than his previous job.

    Perhaps unsurprisingly, they were Donald Trump voters, and the message of economic nationalism really appealed to them. Bringing jobs back and restricting low-skilled immigration from Mexico and LatAm were the key issues for them.

    But they also benefitted hugely from Obamacare. Their son, in his early 20s, was beaten up and left with lingering health issues. Before Obamacare, they ended up mortgaging themselves to the hilt to pay his bills, because these were pre-existing conditions, and they couldn't afford insurance. If Obamacare had simply been repealed, it would would have been an utter disaster for them. I doubt they would have voted Republican again.

    Donald Trump doesn't realise it, but John McCain may have saved him.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,494
    Scott_P said:
    Interesting link. McCain told journalists who asked how he'd vote "Wait for the show!", so clearly expected drama - the evidence that it was a deliberate ploy is strong. Possibly his health was a factor in that he can see the finishing line possibly approaching and felt "Hey, if that might happen, let's go out with a bang".

    And good article by David, as usual. I don't think it will happen, but those odds are jolly tempting.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,690

    I think Trump will soldier on, making the US look ever more ridiculous and hollowing out its already dwindling global influence. My guess is that the Democrats will under-perform quite spectacularly in the 2018 mid-terms and that this will be seen, rightly, as a big victory for Trump. That will make him untouchable. If he stands in 2020 - which is far from certain - I reckon he'll win. In many ways the US is ceasing to be a functioning country. The culture wars there are so intense that there is very little that now unites those living in the North East, the West Coast and the big cities of the interior with the rest of the population. The Americans have always been brilliant at reinvention, but they have one hell of a job to do to get themselves out of their current mess.

    I think there are two separate issues:

    Firstly, there is the question of the increasing polarisation of the US. The coasts - Seattle to San Diego, and Boston to Key West - have been beneficiaries of globalisation. They are full of tech and media companies, graduates, high house prices and prosperity. The Great Flyover, with a few exceptions, is suffering. Trump's policies (with the exception of Obamacare repeal), for the first time, have prioritised those in the Great Flyover. We will likely continue to see the divides between the coast and the centre rising: especially at is the coasts who (right now) pay all the bills.

    Secondly, will Donald Trump's economic policies actually work for those in the Great Flyover?

  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,494
    edited July 2017
    I'm less convinced by the suggestion downthread that Trump might not stand for re-election. I think he's enjoying it. Very few people anywhere near politics wouldn't enjoy being POTUS, and he's getting all the media being all about him, him, him, every day, which I think is his definition of a good time.

    Also, bets that people at the top stand down voluntarily when things get difficult are almost always bad, cf. May, Corbyn, Clinton. The only recent counter-example I can think of is Hollande.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    18/1 for an actual impeachment passing looks mean, never mind in a single year. He's much more likely to stand down of his own accord.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,582
    rcs1000 said:

    I think Trump will soldier on, making the US look ever more ridiculous and hollowing out its already dwindling global influence. My guess is that the Democrats will under-perform quite spectacularly in the 2018 mid-terms and that this will be seen, rightly, as a big victory for Trump. That will make him untouchable. If he stands in 2020 - which is far from certain - I reckon he'll win. In many ways the US is ceasing to be a functioning country. The culture wars there are so intense that there is very little that now unites those living in the North East, the West Coast and the big cities of the interior with the rest of the population. The Americans have always been brilliant at reinvention, but they have one hell of a job to do to get themselves out of their current mess.

    I think there are two separate issues:

    Firstly, there is the question of the increasing polarisation of the US. The coasts - Seattle to San Diego, and Boston to Key West - have been beneficiaries of globalisation. They are full of tech and media companies, graduates, high house prices and prosperity. The Great Flyover, with a few exceptions, is suffering. Trump's policies (with the exception of Obamacare repeal), for the first time, have prioritised those in the Great Flyover. We will likely continue to see the divides between the coast and the centre rising: especially at is the coasts who (right now) pay all the bills.

    Secondly, will Donald Trump's economic policies actually work for those in the Great Flyover?

    Have any of Trump's major campaign promises actually turned into laws yet? His big infrastructure commitments seem to have been forgotten, for example.

    I really struggle to see a way out for America. And that is such a huge shame. The world needs a self-confident, outward-looking US. The alternatives are not hugely appealing. Especially from a Brexit UK perspective.


  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,160
    PClipp said:

    Is there some kind of mechanism in place in case the President of the USA goes mad? Whose would be the responsibility for making the decision? Or for asking the decision to be made?

    Asking for a friend, of course....

    "goes mad"?

    I think we can safely say he is mad already and has been for some time.

    This is a presidency that is going to test the republic's fabled constitution to near destruction.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,494
    Leaving aside what we think about Trump, what do we think he should, if he were entirely rational and balanced, do about North Korea? Some options are discussed here, and largely dismissed:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jul/29/china-and-russia-have-responsibility-for-north-korea-nuclear-threat-says-us

    We are all Iraq-scarred, but the thing about Saddam was that he turned out not to have the WMD that many of us thought. North Korea clearly does, and is working towards being able to deliver them pretty much anywhere. Nor is it obvious that the leadership is rational enough not to do so on a whim, although to be fair they've not actually attacked anyone for 60 years.

    I really hate to flirt with interventionism again, and I'm not in a position to influence anyone's thinking about it, but isn't there a case for invasion before the threat becomes completely ready?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,662
    F1: seven minutes or so until third practice.

    Due to irritating and unexpected circumstances the pre-qualifying article might be delayed (or I might have to rush it instead).
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,582

    I'm less convinced by the suggestion downthread that Trump might not stand for re-election. I think he's enjoying it. Very few people anywhere near politics wouldn't enjoy being POTUS, and he's getting all the media being all about him, him, him, every day, which I think is his definition of a good time.

    Also, bets that people at the top stand down voluntarily when things get difficult are almost always bad, cf. May, Corbyn, Clinton. The only recent counter-example I can think of is Hollande.

    Normally. I'd agree. But Trump is not a politician. He is a privileged property developer on an ego trip who cannot do what he loves best while he is in the White House - day to day deal-making that involves screwing the other side in every way possible. Come to think of it, maybe that's why he is so keen on getting into trade talks with the UK!

  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited July 2017
    rcs1000 said:

    I think Trump will soldier on, making the US look ever more ridiculous and hollowing out its already dwindling global influence. My guess is that the Democrats will under-perform quite spectacularly in the 2018 mid-terms and that this will be seen, rightly, as a big victory for Trump. That will make him untouchable. If he stands in 2020 - which is far from certain - I reckon he'll win. In many ways the US is ceasing to be a functioning country. The culture wars there are so intense that there is very little that now unites those living in the North East, the West Coast and the big cities of the interior with the rest of the population. The Americans have always been brilliant at reinvention, but they have one hell of a job to do to get themselves out of their current mess.

    I think there are two separate issues:

    Firstly, there is the question of the increasing polarisation of the US. The coasts - Seattle to San Diego, and Boston to Key West - have been beneficiaries of globalisation. They are full of tech and media companies, graduates, high house prices and prosperity. The Great Flyover, with a few exceptions, is suffering. Trump's policies (with the exception of Obamacare repeal), for the first time, have prioritised those in the Great Flyover. We will likely continue to see the divides between the coast and the centre rising: especially at is the coasts who (right now) pay all the bills.

    Secondly, will Donald Trump's economic policies actually work for those in the Great Flyover?

    The geography of Trumpania and Leaverstan vs Clinton land and Remania is not so different. The recent UK GE was the first in my memory where the SE class split was so even, and the age split so marked.

    The split was also very marked in the POTUS at lower levels. The county level declarations were very split too. In Flyover states like Indiana or Kentucky the cities were blue, while in places like Pennsylvania that were swing states, outside the Philly conurbation it was solid Republican red.

    Brexit is substantially the same culture war between those who see globalisation as a benefit, and those who see it as a threat. The hopes of free marketeer Brexiters are either going to be dashed, or annoy the core protectionist insular Brexit vote. Ultimately that is why Brexit is a blind alley. It will aggravate the culture war rather than ameliorate it. Where America goes, we follow.

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,160

    Leaving aside what we think about Trump, what do we think he should, if he were entirely rational and balanced, do about North Korea? Some options are discussed here, and largely dismissed:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jul/29/china-and-russia-have-responsibility-for-north-korea-nuclear-threat-says-us

    We are all Iraq-scarred, but the thing about Saddam was that he turned out not to have the WMD that many of us thought. North Korea clearly does, and is working towards being able to deliver them pretty much anywhere. Nor is it obvious that the leadership is rational enough not to do so on a whim, although to be fair they've not actually attacked anyone for 60 years.

    I really hate to flirt with interventionism again, and I'm not in a position to influence anyone's thinking about it, but isn't there a case for invasion before the threat becomes completely ready?

    I really would not want to be the people who ultimately decide this. What an awful choice.

    Personally, I can't see how there wont be some kind of operation within months. The USA simply can't allow the situation to continue and indeed, it could be argued, it would be a dereliction of the duty of the president and his military to protect the US to not do something.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,654


    I really hate to flirt with interventionism again, and I'm not in a position to influence anyone's thinking about it, but isn't there a case for invasion before the threat becomes completely ready?

    This has a lot of fairly intractable practical problems, starting with how you evacuate Seoul without the North Koreans noticing.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,284

    rcs1000 said:

    I think Trump will soldier on, making the US look ever more ridiculous and hollowing out its already dwindling global influence. My guess is that the Democrats will under-perform quite spectacularly in the 2018 mid-terms and that this will be seen, rightly, as a big victory for Trump. That will make him untouchable. If he stands in 2020 - which is far from certain - I reckon he'll win. In many ways the US is ceasing to be a functioning country. The culture wars there are so intense that there is very little that now unites those living in the North East, the West Coast and the big cities of the interior with the rest of the population. The Americans have always been brilliant at reinvention, but they have one hell of a job to do to get themselves out of their current mess.

    I think there are two separate issues:

    Firstly, there is the question of the increasing polarisation of the US. The coasts - Seattle to San Diego, and Boston to Key West - have been beneficiaries of globalisation. They are full of tech and media companies, graduates, high house prices and prosperity. The Great Flyover, with a few exceptions, is suffering. Trump's policies (with the exception of Obamacare repeal), for the first time, have prioritised those in the Great Flyover. We will likely continue to see the divides between the coast and the centre rising: especially at is the coasts who (right now) pay all the bills.

    Secondly, will Donald Trump's economic policies actually work for those in the Great Flyover?

    The geography of Trumpania and Leaverstan vs Clinton land and Remania is not so different. The recent UK GE was the first in my memory where the SE class split was so even, and the age split so marked.

    The split was also very marked in the POTUS at lower levels. The county level declarations were very split too. In Flyover states like Indiana or Kentucky the cities were blue, while in places like Pennsylvania that were swing states, outside the Philly conurbation it was solid Republican red.

    Brexit is substantially the same culture war between those who see globalisation as a benefit, and those who see it as a threat. The hopes offree marketeer Brexiters are either going to bedashed, or annoy the core protectionist insular Brexit vote. Ultimately that is why Brexit is a blind alley. It will aggravate the culture war rather than ameliorate it. Where America goes, we follow.

    This all assumes that the Dems will continue to ignore the lessons of 2016.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    edited July 2017

    Leaving aside what we think about Trump, what do we think he should, if he were entirely rational and balanced, do about North Korea? Some options are discussed here, and largely dismissed:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jul/29/china-and-russia-have-responsibility-for-north-korea-nuclear-threat-says-us

    We are all Iraq-scarred, but the thing about Saddam was that he turned out not to have the WMD that many of us thought. North Korea clearly does, and is working towards being able to deliver them pretty much anywhere. Nor is it obvious that the leadership is rational enough not to do so on a whim, although to be fair they've not actually attacked anyone for 60 years.

    I really hate to flirt with interventionism again, and I'm not in a position to influence anyone's thinking about it, but isn't there a case for invasion before the threat becomes completely ready?

    There's no military option that doesn't involve civilian megadeaths due to the proximity of Seoul (pop. 10m) to the DMZ.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,690


    I really hate to flirt with interventionism again, and I'm not in a position to influence anyone's thinking about it, but isn't there a case for invasion before the threat becomes completely ready?

    This has a lot of fairly intractable practical problems, starting with how you evacuate Seoul without the North Koreans noticing.
    And that is the crux of the problem. How many South Korean dead is acceptable to contain North Korea?
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    rcs1000 said:

    I think Trump will soldier on, making the US look ever more ridiculous and hollowing out its already dwindling global influence. My guess is that the Democrats will under-perform quite spectacularly in the 2018 mid-terms and that this will be seen, rightly, as a big victory for Trump. That will make him untouchable. If he stands in 2020 - which is far from certain - I reckon he'll win. In many ways the US is ceasing to be a functioning country. The culture wars there are so intense that there is very little that now unites those living in the North East, the West Coast and the big cities of the interior with the rest of the population. The Americans have always been brilliant at reinvention, but they have one hell of a job to do to get themselves out of their current mess.

    I think there are two separate issues:

    Firstly, there is the question of the increasing polarisation of the US. The coasts - Seattle to San Diego, and Boston to Key West - have been beneficiaries of globalisation. They are full of tech and media companies, graduates, high house prices and prosperity. The Great Flyover, with a few exceptions, is suffering. Trump's policies (with the exception of Obamacare repeal), for the first time, have prioritised those in the Great Flyover. We will likely continue to see the divides between the coast and the centre rising: especially at is the coasts who (right now) pay all the bills.

    Secondly, will Donald Trump's economic policies actually work for those in the Great Flyover?

    The geography of Trumpania and Leaverstan vs Clinton land and Remania is not so different. The recent UK GE was the first in my memory where the SE class split was so even, and the age split so marked.

    The split was also very marked in the POTUS at lower levels. The county level declarations were very split too. In Flyover states like Indiana or Kentucky the cities were blue, while in places like Pennsylvania that were swing states, outside the Philly conurbation it was solid Republican red.

    Brexit is substantially the same culture war between those who see globalisation as a benefit, and those who see it as a threat. The hopes offree marketeer Brexiters are either going to bedashed, or annoy the core protectionist insular Brexit vote. Ultimately that is why Brexit is a blind alley. It will aggravate the culture war rather than ameliorate it. Where America goes, we follow.

    This all assumes that the Dems will continue to ignore the lessons of 2016.
    I am not sure that it is a bridge easily made. This is a fascinating little graph showing divergence over time on social issues:

    https://twitter.com/gelliottmorris/status/888904322326638592
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,662
    Mr. Borough, maybe. But there's been a constant ratcheting of pressure at a slow pace rather than a big bang (as it were).

    I agree entirely it's a horrendous choice. A military victory might require action (carpet-bombing) that involve a massive civilian death toll [not sure of lab/silo sites, might well be near civilian populations]. Otherwise, the artillery barrage on Seoul would result in the city's devastation, and there's the possibility of a nuclear attempt as well.

    China toppling Kim Jong-un and establishing a puppet regime might be the least worst option, as far as death tolls go, but I don't know how plausible that is.
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506

    18/1 for an actual impeachment passing looks mean, never mind in a single year. He's much more likely to stand down of his own accord.

    He could stand down claiming he has done a great job, great job, and that his work was done.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,160
    rcs1000 said:


    I really hate to flirt with interventionism again, and I'm not in a position to influence anyone's thinking about it, but isn't there a case for invasion before the threat becomes completely ready?

    This has a lot of fairly intractable practical problems, starting with how you evacuate Seoul without the North Koreans noticing.
    And that is the crux of the problem. How many South Korean dead is acceptable to contain North Korea?
    Potentially the US could take out the NK threats to SK in a single blow. I have no idea whether that is actually feasible and indeed, US military planners may not know themselves.

    The history guy, Nial Ferguson was writing something along these lines a few weeks ago.
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506

    I have been monitoring it, don't you worry ;-)

    Am off to the SW next week and anticipate seeing semi-desert instead of green rolling hills. The recent rain has saved our southern British bacon for the moment, but things are not great here either drought-wise. Another dry winter and we'll be in trouble.

    It is surely the East of England which has the lwoest rainfall.

    The SW suffers from a shortage of reservoirs to store the rain that falls so is first to impose garden hose pipe bans. But that does not mean they don't have rain.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,576
    2019? It's going to be a long long few years.


    I really hate to flirt with interventionism again, and I'm not in a position to influence anyone's thinking about it, but isn't there a case for invasion before the threat becomes completely ready?

    A dark and haunting question for our age. That sensible people even consider that question shows, I think, there may be a case of some measure.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,662
    F1: Red Bull's got some aero upgrades which seem to be working. However, circuit natures will matter a lot. Hungary, Singapore etc depend more on that sort of thing, Monza will still be pretty bad (probably) for Red Bull.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,582

    Leaving aside what we think about Trump, what do we think he should, if he were entirely rational and balanced, do about North Korea? Some options are discussed here, and largely dismissed:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jul/29/china-and-russia-have-responsibility-for-north-korea-nuclear-threat-says-us

    We are all Iraq-scarred, but the thing about Saddam was that he turned out not to have the WMD that many of us thought. North Korea clearly does, and is working towards being able to deliver them pretty much anywhere. Nor is it obvious that the leadership is rational enough not to do so on a whim, although to be fair they've not actually attacked anyone for 60 years.

    I really hate to flirt with interventionism again, and I'm not in a position to influence anyone's thinking about it, but isn't there a case for invasion before the threat becomes completely ready?

    I really would not want to be the people who ultimately decide this. What an awful choice.

    Personally, I can't see how there wont be some kind of operation within months. The USA simply can't allow the situation to continue and indeed, it could be argued, it would be a dereliction of the duty of the president and his military to protect the US to not do something.

    It will have to be the Chinese who solve things. This is perhaps the one situation where Trump being so completely off the wall might work to everyone's advantage. The Chinese - who are totally, coldly rational - will not want, under any circumstances, the Americans directly confronting North Korea. But they cannot be certain it will not happen. The only way they can prevent it for sure is to take action themselves. They have the capability to make this all go away with a few words and some strategically aimed bullets.

  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,494


    I really would not want to be the people who ultimately decide this. What an awful choice.

    Personally, I can't see how there wont be some kind of operation within months. The USA simply can't allow the situation to continue and indeed, it could be argued, it would be a dereliction of the duty of the president and his military to protect the US to not do something.

    Yes. But as others have pointed out, Seoul is incredibly and immediately vuilnerable. So the choices seem to be:

    1. Doing nothing militarily, leaning on Russia and China, offering them huge advantages if they solve the problem (I think only China really has the power to strangle the NK economy, and if they do then they have to worry qabout the missiles). They may be unable or unwilling to solve it. If so, rely on NK to do what it says and not actually attack anyone unless they feel really provoked, and never provoke them.

    2. Carrying out a limited strike, aimed at destroying all known missile sites and/or the leadership personally. This is roughly what Israel did with Iran - it kicks the can down the road, but builds up hatred.

    3. Launching an all-out invasion, combined with 2, with total secrecy until it happens. Is that even possible?

    The least evil is perhaps a combination of 1+2 - perhaps/cajole/bribe China to squeeze, take out the known missile sites, and hope that the regime falls before they have another site ready.

    Our instincts and experienced are all against taking action - Iraq! Liba! Syria! Afghanistan! Vietnam! An thinking what Trump should do is difficult as we need to get past our feelings about Trump. But counselling inaction that might lead to cities being nuked does seem irresponsible.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,662
    Mr. Observer, a stronger action might be better. I don't necessarily mean warfare, but Chinese troops and a clear puppet regime. Probably better for the North Korean people too.

    If they just take out Kim Jong-un, there's always the possibility he'll be succeeded by another nutcase. Or, also bad from a Chinese perspective, someone who wants reunification (not immediately, but down the line).

    The only way for China to guarantee the buffer state remains just that, is to take control of the situation.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited July 2017
    rcs1000 said:


    I really hate to flirt with interventionism again, and I'm not in a position to influence anyone's thinking about it, but isn't there a case for invasion before the threat becomes completely ready?

    This has a lot of fairly intractable practical problems, starting with how you evacuate Seoul without the North Koreans noticing.
    And that is the crux of the problem. How many South Korean dead is acceptable to contain North Korea?
    The prime objective in any second Korean war would be counter battery fire on the North Korean fire bases, and on anti missile defence. Destruction of NK command and control centres via smart munitions would paralyse the NK state and military. Theirs is largely obselete technology. Carpet bombing of cities is unnecessary and counterproductive.

    It appears that the new launching was from a fresh site apparently, so still some work to do on intelligence.

    Taking out the hardened NK heavy artillery emplacements would be a slow and bloody job for SK combat engineers. The quick way would be tactical nukes or chemical weapons, but a first strike with these would perhaps provoke a much wider war.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Are any of the NK interventionists personally willing to go and fight 1m+ NK soldiers on the frozen Chosin reservoir?
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,582

    I have been monitoring it, don't you worry ;-)

    Am off to the SW next week and anticipate seeing semi-desert instead of green rolling hills. The recent rain has saved our southern British bacon for the moment, but things are not great here either drought-wise. Another dry winter and we'll be in trouble.

    It is surely the East of England which has the lwoest rainfall.

    The SW suffers from a shortage of reservoirs to store the rain that falls so is first to impose garden hose pipe bans. But that does not mean they don't have rain.

    I meant SW France!

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,576
    edited July 2017

    Leaving aside what we think about Trump, what do we think he should, if he were entirely rational and balanced, do about North Korea? Some options are discussed here, and largely dismissed:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jul/29/china-and-russia-have-responsibility-for-north-korea-nuclear-threat-says-us

    We are all Iraq-scarred, but the thing about Saddam was that he turned out not to have the WMD that many of us thought. North Korea clearly does, and is working towards being able to deliver them pretty much anywhere. Nor is it obvious that the leadership is rational enough not to do so on a whim, although to be fair they've not actually attacked anyone for 60 years.

    I really hate to flirt with interventionism again, and I'm not in a position to influence anyone's thinking about it, but isn't there a case for invasion before the threat becomes completely ready?

    I really would not want to be the people who ultimately decide this. What an awful choice.

    Personally, I can't see how there wont be some kind of operation within months. The USA simply can't allow the situation to continue and indeed, it could be argued, it would be a dereliction of the duty of the president and his military to protect the US to not do something.

    It will have to be the Chinese who solve things. This is perhaps the one situation where Trump being so completely off the wall might work to everyone's advantage. The Chinese - who are totally, coldly rational - will not want, under any circumstances, the Americans directly confronting North Korea. But they cannot be certain it will not happen. The only way they can prevent it for sure is to take action themselves. They have the capability to make this all go away with a few words and some strategically aimed bullets.

    While that seems like the best option to contain NK, I do wonder sometimes if we overplay the 'China is totally rational and controlled' card - they do seem to have developed a coldly practical, and highly oppressive, system, but they are human and even the most practical system can get stuck, or simply unable to get the job done.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,139
    Re. North Korea.

    China's the important player here, and we have to ask what they want and what their fears are.

    They don't want US troops on their doorstep, which means that North Korea falling and South Korea taking over would be a no-no. They also don't want millions of North Koreans flooding over their borders.

    Then there are the economic factors: if NK do something stupid, then China will be seen (rightly in some ways) as their protectors. That might hurt them economically, and that really matters to them at the moment.

    But they also realise how unstable NK is, and that the country also threatens them in various ways. They have no fondness for NK.

    The solution may be for the US and China to come to a deal. China will deal with NK's leadership, whilst the US protects SK. Once NK's leadership is gone, both sides remove their troops (China from NK, US from SK) and let the unified Korea sort themselves out.

    It would raise China's standing internationally, and also make SK less of a competitor: the SK government would have to spend a fortune over decades 'fixing' the north.

    It's a case of persuading China, and to a lesser extent the US, that the current situation is unsustainable and bad for business.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,514

    ... Nor is it obvious that the leadership is rational enough not to do so on a whim, although to be fair they've not actually attacked anyone for 60 years. ..

    Can't say that about the US!

    I see Kim Jong as acting entirely rationally as a defensive measure having observed Iraq and Libya. I see no evidence that he would attack the US or SK on a whim, knowing the consequences. To militarily attack North Korea would be the height of stupidity and the discussion here of how many megadeaths would be justified in knocking him out him is unbelievable. He's a fact of life like all the other nuclear powers, some of whom threaten first strike (including the UK).
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,662
    F1: Ricciardo's had a reliability failure. Have to wait and see if he ends up with a grid penalty.
  • AllanAllan Posts: 262

    Re. North Korea.
    ....The solution may be for the US and China to come to a deal. China will deal with NK's leadership, whilst the US protects SK. Once NK's leadership is gone, both sides remove their troops (China from NK, US from SK) and let the unified Korea sort themselves out.
    It would raise China's standing internationally, and also make SK less of a competitor: the SK government would have to spend a fortune over decades 'fixing' the north.
    .....

    It is the logical and best solution. So why has China not done it? The USA (and Trump) would clearly benefit from this solution. The puzzle is why China tolerates the NK Leader?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,576
    Allan said:

    Re. North Korea.
    ....The solution may be for the US and China to come to a deal. China will deal with NK's leadership, whilst the US protects SK. Once NK's leadership is gone, both sides remove their troops (China from NK, US from SK) and let the unified Korea sort themselves out.
    It would raise China's standing internationally, and also make SK less of a competitor: the SK government would have to spend a fortune over decades 'fixing' the north.
    .....

    It is the logical and best solution. So why has China not done it? The USA (and Trump) would clearly benefit from this solution. The puzzle is why China tolerates the NK Leader?
    NK leadership not having pushed too far yet I would imagine for one, though obviously they are experts are walking right up to the line. Or it would be harder for them to control than they allow people to think.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited July 2017
    Dura_Ace said:

    Are any of the NK interventionists personally willing to go and fight 1m+ NK soldiers on the frozen Chosin reservoir?

    I am happy to be a peacenik (albeit one with quite a military interest!) but this is not one for us. We have neither capability nor particular interests in the area. We have other fish to fry.
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506

    I have been monitoring it, don't you worry ;-)

    Am off to the SW next week and anticipate seeing semi-desert instead of green rolling hills. The recent rain has saved our southern British bacon for the moment, but things are not great here either drought-wise. Another dry winter and we'll be in trouble.

    It is surely the East of England which has the lwoest rainfall.

    The SW suffers from a shortage of reservoirs to store the rain that falls so is first to impose garden hose pipe bans. But that does not mean they don't have rain.

    I meant SW France!

    Voila!
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,139
    Allan said:

    Re. North Korea.
    ....The solution may be for the US and China to come to a deal. China will deal with NK's leadership, whilst the US protects SK. Once NK's leadership is gone, both sides remove their troops (China from NK, US from SK) and let the unified Korea sort themselves out.
    It would raise China's standing internationally, and also make SK less of a competitor: the SK government would have to spend a fortune over decades 'fixing' the north.
    .....

    It is the logical and best solution. So why has China not done it? The USA (and Trump) would clearly benefit from this solution. The puzzle is why China tolerates the NK Leader?
    They fear what will happen if the NK regime falls. The key is to assuage those fears, and to persuade them that the risks of doing nothing are greater than those of doing something.

    Another step might be to agree an international (UN?) aid program for NK if the regime were to fall: have the nations of the world pour money and material in to try to prevent the population from leaving for China.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,139

    Dura_Ace said:

    Are any of the NK interventionists personally willing to go and fight 1m+ NK soldiers on the frozen Chosin reservoir?

    I am happy to be a peacenik (albeit one with quite a military interest!) but this is not one for us. We have neither capability nor particular interests in the area. We have other fish to fry.
    We should make it clear that, if NK falls, we would be willing to work with China and SK in a humanitarian aid program. But only if asked.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,068
    Barnesian said:

    ... Nor is it obvious that the leadership is rational enough not to do so on a whim, although to be fair they've not actually attacked anyone for 60 years. ..

    Can't say that about the US!

    I see Kim Jong as acting entirely rationally as a defensive measure having observed Iraq and Libya. I see no evidence that he would attack the US or SK on a whim, knowing the consequences. To militarily attack North Korea would be the height of stupidity and the discussion here of how many megadeaths would be justified in knocking him out him is unbelievable. He's a fact of life like all the other nuclear powers, some of whom threaten first strike (including the UK).
    IMO, the Kim dynasty are a family of Caligulas. They compel their subjects to worship them, and kill, starve, and torture people for no reason other than to instill terror in the population.

    I would not count on them acting rationally in their dealings with other powers. They do things like kidnapping foreign nationals and assassinating cabinet ministers.


This discussion has been closed.