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System · July 2017

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Mr. Corbyn is playing a dangerous game with the majority of LAB voters who want to remain

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RobD · July 2017

First

foxinsoxuk · July 2017

Second, like Corbyn.

tlg86 · July 2017

Nah, Jezza is as safe as houses.

Sean_F · July 2017

Some well-off Londoners who voted Labour in order to stop Brexit may feel buyers' remorse.

But, most of Corbyn's admirers are so because they want to destroy capitalism. Corbyn's attitude to the EU has no bearing on this.

SquareRoot · July 2017

tlg86 said:
Nah, Jezza is as safe as houses.

some houses aren't very safe...

MyBurningEars · July 2017

If Corbyn is to be usurped from the Labour leadership (rather than leaving on his own terms with a successor safely designated, or due to an unanticipated personal factor like a health crisis), what is it that could split his coalition of membership support apart? Brexit is clearly been the kind of wedge-driving issue that could do it. What else could?

A dismal local election campaign - seems unlikely. A dismal GE campaign - well he did okay in the last one and the next likely won't be for a while. A polling collapse - the true believers have seen it before, and likely don't think much of the polling companies. Nukes? They probably agree with him. A serious schism within the parliamentary party? So long as he can still form a shadow cabinet, I think the membership will back their man however inflexible and uncompromising he is being with his colleagues - unless it's over some issue where they really can't run with him. If the parliamentary party are going to try to topple him, their best bet by far is to manufacture a row over Europe. There will certainly be veteran radical left-wingers who joined the party to support Corbyn who have similarly lukewarm or sceptical views on the EU as he does, but a lot of the younger hope-and-change crowd, if presented with "one last chance" to save the country from Brexit, may just feel pressured into a switch.

Easier to bounce them if Labour moderates can find and get behind a pro-Remain figurehead with some proper left-wing credentials, mind you, and either young or (like Corbyn) surprisingly young-friendly. Someone who can work in a Big Tent with moderates and centrists, but who has shown enthusiasm (or at least, no hostility) to the Corbynista project and its supporters.

(The other possibility is that the younger membership just fades away over the next few years, perhaps disillusioned that after all the hype, Labour didn't ultimately end up in power and finding that Corbyn doesn't really speak for them on all the issues that they thought he would. They might even find that Corbyn's bloody-minded inflexibility they had so admired on issues they'd agreed with him over, is not so great when applied to Brexit. If Corbyn's line on Europe accelerates their drifting off, it could ultimately leave him vulnerable later. Still, it's hard to see past Brexit as the ideal issue to try triggering his removal.)

Luckyguy1983 · July 2017

No he isn't.

IanB2 · July 2017

His sentiments are of course out of line with most of his MPs, almost all of whom are remainers, some very committed. Their view of his campaigning abilities, and some of his politics, may have changed, but with Brexit at least we are still in the territory where almost all of them would sign his death warrant. Labour is riding high, so this won't matter until it matters. When it does, things might get interesting, for us and for him.

AlastairMeeks · July 2017

I see this is going to be one of those threads where Europhobes explain to Remain supporters how they're going to react to developments. I await with interest discovering how my views are going to evolve.

Nigelb · July 2017

His explanation on on what appeared to be a campaign promise on student fees looked feeble.

Almost LibDem...

foxinsoxuk · July 2017

I trust Lab more over Brexit, and am not alone with that. Corbyn has always been more Eurosceptic than most in Labour, but the reason that Labour switched from a Eurosceptic position to a pro EU one was the 1980's shift of the EU into the social sphere. It stopped being a capitalists club, and shifted to being a Social Democratic one, the same reason Tory Euroscepticism ran riot. Pan Europeanism is a core LD value for much the same reason. We LDs see more in common with our European neighbours politically, than with either Tories or hard Left domestically.

Nonetheless, I would prefer a Labour Brexit to a Tory one. It would be one negotiated by Starmer and Jezza would not be so obsessed with immigration, or Free Trade deals that favour US Multinationals. It is not so much a softer Brexit, as a better one.

Student fees are going to run and run, and at least Jezza recognises these chains of debt on our young. That clamour is only going to get louder. Everyone acknowledges that there will be substantial write offs, the only question is whether that happens after 30 years of crushed life or much sooner. Other European countries manage with much lower fees, as do our BRIC competitors, and even the USA, why are we so different?

OldKingCole · July 2017

MyBurningEars said:
If Corbyn is to be usurped from the Labour leadership (rather than leaving on his own terms with a successor safely designated, or due to an unanticipated personal factor like a health crisis), what is it that could split his coalition of membership support apart? Brexit is clearly been the kind of wedge-driving issue that could do it. What else could?

A dismal local election campaign - seems unlikely. A dismal GE campaign - well he did okay in the last one and the next likely won't be for a while. A polling collapse - the true believers have seen it before, and likely don't think much of the polling companies. Nukes? They probably agree with him. A serious schism within the parliamentary party? So long as he can still form a shadow cabinet, I think the membership will back their man however inflexible and uncompromising he is being with his colleagues - unless it's over some issue where they really can't run with him. If the parliamentary party are going to try to topple him, their best bet by far is to manufacture a row over Europe. There will certainly be veteran radical left-wingers who joined the party to support Corbyn who have similarly lukewarm or sceptical views on the EU as he does, but a lot of the younger hope-and-change crowd, if presented with "one last chance" to save the country from Brexit, may just feel pressured into a switch.

Easier to bounce them if Labour moderates can find and get behind a pro-Remain figurehead with some proper left-wing credentials, mind you, and either young or (like Corbyn) surprisingly young-friendly. Someone who can work in a Big Tent with moderates and centrists, but who has shown enthusiasm (or at least, no hostility) to the Corbynista project and its supporters.

(The other possibility is that the younger membership just fades away over the next few years, perhaps disillusioned that after all the hype, Labour didn't ultimately end up in power and finding that Corbyn doesn't really speak for them on all the issues that they thought he would. They might even find that Corbyn's bloody-minded inflexibility they had so admired on issues they'd agreed with him over, is not so great when applied to Brexit. If Corbyn's line on Europe accelerates their drifting off, it could ultimately leave him vulnerable later. Still, it's hard to see past Brexit as the ideal issue to try triggering his removal.)

Was drinking with a couple of long-established local Labour people the other day ....... I’m accepted as ‘almost one of us’ in spite of my known LD sympathies........ and was told that new members are telling the old hands ..... “Oh yes..... been canvassing, leafletting round here for years.’ No my friend said, they hadn’t. At least there was no record of them.

Nigelb · July 2017

Sean_F said:
Some well-off Londoners who voted Labour in order to stop Brexit may feel buyers' remorse.

But, most of Corbyn's admirers are so because they want to destroy capitalism. Corbyn's attitude to the EU has no bearing on this.

Most of them ?
Is there any polling evidence for that, as it seems unlikely.

Or is that your own characterisation ?

freetochoose · July 2017

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jul/24/bank-of-england-household-debt-bank-credit-card-car-loans

While the anoraks obsess over Brexit another iceberg is approaching if we're not careful. Some of us have been pointing this out for a while, politicians daren't mention our national debt, far easier to pledge free money.

foxinsoxuk · July 2017

IanB2 said:
His sentiments are of course out of line with most of his MPs, almost all of whom are remainers, some very committed. Their view of his campaigning abilities, and some of his politics, may have changed, but with Brexit at least we are still in the territory where almost all of them would sign his death warrant. Labour is riding high, so this won't matter until it matters. When it does, things might get interesting, for us and for him.

If Brexit became an issue that brought down a Tory government, then Jezza would find it useful. It is simply a lower priority for him than other aspects of foreign policy in the Middle East etc. He is against, but way down the list of priorities.

Labour can ride two horses at once for a long while yet, it is why Lab gained share in both the most Remain and the most Leave constituencies that they hold. They only need to come to a position after taking power.

A Fox style TTIP arrangement with America, where we buy their substandard foods in return for selling them the NHS, combined with an increasingly indebted set of Millenials are both issues where Labour will rake in votes.

CarlottaVance · July 2017

Sean_F said:
Some well-off Londoners who voted Labour in order to stop Brexit may feel buyers' remorse.

But, most of Corbyn's admirers are so because they want to destroy capitalism. Corbyn's attitude to the EU has no bearing on this.

Doesn't Corbyn view the EU as a tool of global financial institutions? Surely leaving is required to implement Socialism in one country?

freetochoose · July 2017

foxinsoxuk said:

IanB2 said:
His sentiments are of course out of line with most of his MPs, almost all of whom are remainers, some very committed. Their view of his campaigning abilities, and some of his politics, may have changed, but with Brexit at least we are still in the territory where almost all of them would sign his death warrant. Labour is riding high, so this won't matter until it matters. When it does, things might get interesting, for us and for him.
If Brexit became an issue that brought down a Tory government, then Jezza would find it useful. It is simply a lower priority for him than other aspects of foreign policy in the Middle East etc. He is against, but way down the list of priorities.

Labour can ride two horses at once for a long while yet, it is why Lab gained share in both the most Remain and the most Leave constituencies that they hold. They only need to come to a position after taking power.

A Fox style TTIP arrangement with America, where we buy their substandard foods in return for selling them the NHS, combined with an increasingly indebted set of Millenials are both issues where Labour will rake in votes.

I suppose the fact that none of these things are going to happen is irrelevant.

I read a Spurs forum where fans say we should make a cheeky bid for Messi, it is as realistic as some of the hogwash Remainers are predicting on here. You are projecting what you want as opposed to dealing with reality.

Roger · July 2017

Following the Blair precedent of 1997 the wisest thing for the Tories to do would be to choose a Remainer as their new Leader.

The Tory Leavers would have no where else to go and Corbyn would lose a huge chunk of his support.

freetochoose · July 2017

Roger said:
Following the Blair precedent of 1997 the wisest thing for the Tories to do would be to choose a Remainer as their new Leader.

The Tory Leavers would have no where else to go and Corbyn would lose a huge chunk of his support.

The Tory leader is a Remainer

foxinsoxuk · July 2017

freetochoose said:

foxinsoxuk said:

IanB2 said:
His sentiments are of course out of line with most of his MPs, almost all of whom are remainers, some very committed. Their view of his campaigning abilities, and some of his politics, may have changed, but with Brexit at least we are still in the territory where almost all of them would sign his death warrant. Labour is riding high, so this won't matter until it matters. When it does, things might get interesting, for us and for him.
If Brexit became an issue that brought down a Tory government, then Jezza would find it useful. It is simply a lower priority for him than other aspects of foreign policy in the Middle East etc. He is against, but way down the list of priorities.

Labour can ride two horses at once for a long while yet, it is why Lab gained share in both the most Remain and the most Leave constituencies that they hold. They only need to come to a position after taking power.

A Fox style TTIP arrangement with America, where we buy their substandard foods in return for selling them the NHS, combined with an increasingly indebted set of Millenials are both issues where Labour will rake in votes.
I suppose the fact that none of these things are going to happen is irrelevant.

I read a Spurs forum where fans say we should make a cheeky bid for Messi, it is as realistic as some of the hogwash Remainers are predicting on here. You are projecting what you want as opposed to dealing with reality.

It is our Trade minister that is proposing such a deal, so a very valid area of attack on Tory policy:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4084857/cabinet-split-over-liam-foxs-plan-to-allow-import-of-controversial-chlorine-washed-chickens-to-help-secure-us-trade-deal-post-brexit/

Jezza and Labour are right to highlight the shape of Brexit, It is what is going to put them in power.

SandyRentool · July 2017

Sean_F said:
Some well-off Londoners who voted Labour in order to stop Brexit may feel buyers' remorse.

But, most of Corbyn's admirers are so because they want to destroy capitalism. Corbyn's attitude to the EU has no bearing on this.

Doesn't Ruthie want to destroy capitalism these days?

Unfortunately she seems to want to replace it with.... a different kind of capitalism.

It's progress, I suppose.

Roger · July 2017

freetochoose said:

Roger said:
Following the Blair precedent of 1997 the wisest thing for the Tories to do would be to choose a Remainer as their new Leader.

The Tory Leavers would have no where else to go and Corbyn would lose a huge chunk of his support.
The Tory leader is a Remainer

....As the Nobel prize winner for literature once said "I dont believe you'

freetochoose · July 2017

foxinsoxuk said:

freetochoose said:

foxinsoxuk said:

IanB2 said:
His sentiments are of course out of line with most of his MPs, almost all of whom are remainers, some very committed. Their view of his campaigning abilities, and some of his politics, may have changed, but with Brexit at least we are still in the territory where almost all of them would sign his death warrant. Labour is riding high, so this won't matter until it matters. When it does, things might get interesting, for us and for him.
If Brexit became an issue that brought down a Tory government, then Jezza would find it useful. It is simply a lower priority for him than other aspects of foreign policy in the Middle East etc. He is against, but way down the list of priorities.

Labour can ride two horses at once for a long while yet, it is why Lab gained share in both the most Remain and the most Leave constituencies that they hold. They only need to come to a position after taking power.

A Fox style TTIP arrangement with America, where we buy their substandard foods in return for selling them the NHS, combined with an increasingly indebted set of Millenials are both issues where Labour will rake in votes.
I suppose the fact that none of these things are going to happen is irrelevant.

I read a Spurs forum where fans say we should make a cheeky bid for Messi, it is as realistic as some of the hogwash Remainers are predicting on here. You are projecting what you want as opposed to dealing with reality.
It is our Trade minister that is proposing such a deal, so a very valid area of attack on Tory policy:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4084857/cabinet-split-over-liam-foxs-plan-to-allow-import-of-controversial-chlorine-washed-chickens-to-help-secure-us-trade-deal-post-brexit/

Jezza and Labour are right to highlight the shape of Brexit, It is what is going to put them in power.

What about the bit where we sell them the NHS?

As for indebted Millenials, did you see Corbyn re student debt the other day?

I repeat, what you hope for is a million miles from reality, hence my comparison with Spurs signing Messi.

AlastairMeeks · July 2017

OGH is raising two things here. First, the media is itching to get its claws back into Jeremy Corbyn. They're bored with tormenting Theresa May and they never liked or rated Jeremy Corbyn in the first place. Sooner or later they're going to find something that resonates with the public.

Almost no one voted Labour because of Brexit. Why would they? Labour's policy is substantially the same as the Conservatives'. However, a lot of people didn't vote Conservative because of Brexit. Once that decision had been made, those voters looked for a suitable alternative. For many of them, Labour met the need. So Labour need only keep Brexit neutralised to keep them on board.

The risk that Jeremy Corbyn is running is that the more intense Remainers are not ready to accept his double-talk on this subject. From a narrow electoral viewpoint, double-talk is exactly what is needed if unity can be maintained. Off the back of the election surprise, his critics have been mostly silenced for now. When the press find the subject that resonates and the gilt peels off the gingerbread again, those critics will find their voice again. And then what happens after that will be hard to predict.

Scott_P · July 2017

foxinsoxuk said:
I would prefer a Labour Brexit to a Tory one. It would be one negotiated by Starmer and Jezza would not be so obsessed with immigration, or Free Trade deals that favour US Multinationals. It is not so much a softer Brexit, as a better one.

Oh dear

Mass immigration from the European Union has been used to "destroy" the conditions of British workers, Jeremy Corbyn said today.

Meanwhile

@Jake_Wilde: 1/10 The elephant in the room standing behind Labour's Brexit policy is that it's entirely driven by John McDonnell.

@Jake_Wilde: 5/10 Membership of the Single Market means relinquishing the state's control of both capital & labour, and thus interest rates & wages.

@Jake_Wilde: 6/10 The same for the Customs Union. It's vital for McDonnell's policies that he controls all the levers, including import/export tariffs.

Casino_Royale · July 2017

Sean_F said:
Some well-off Londoners who voted Labour in order to stop Brexit may feel buyers' remorse.

But, most of Corbyn's admirers are so because they want to destroy capitalism. Corbyn's attitude to the EU has no bearing on this.

I think that applies to his Momentum members.

I think most of his voters want an end to austerity, and a return to free candy.

Casino_Royale · July 2017

Worth noting from that graph that the Conservatives are now overwhelmingly a Leavers party.

freetochoose · July 2017

AlastairMeeks said:
OGH is raising two things here. First, the media is itching to get its claws back into Jeremy Corbyn. They're bored with tormenting Theresa May and they never liked or rated Jeremy Corbyn in the first place. Sooner or later they're going to find something that resonates with the public.

Almost no one voted Labour because of Brexit. Why would they? Labour's policy is substantially the same as the Conservatives'. However, a lot of people didn't vote Conservative because of Brexit. Once that decision had been made, those voters looked for a suitable alternative. For many of them, Labour met the need. So Labour need only keep Brexit neutralised to keep them on board.

The risk that Jeremy Corbyn is running is that the more intense Remainers are not ready to accept his double-talk on this subject. From a narrow electoral viewpoint, double-talk is exactly what is needed if unity can be maintained. Off the back of the election surprise, his critics have been mostly silenced for now. When the press find the subject that resonates and the gilt peels off the gingerbread again, those critics will find their voice again. And then what happens after that will be hard to predict.

Totally agree.

Corbyn on student debt will become a feature every time he makes a silly pledge again. Brexit is irrelevant to the vast majority of people, debt in all its forms is the elephant in the room.

Roger · July 2017

Roger said:

freetochoose said:

Roger said:
Following the Blair precedent of 1997 the wisest thing for the Tories to do would be to choose a Remainer as their new Leader.

The Tory Leavers would have no where else to go and Corbyn would lose a huge chunk of his support.
The Tory leader is a Remainer
....As the Nobel prize winner for literature once said "I dont believe you'

Cont....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCGPhzWWgco

Scott_P · July 2017

freetochoose said:
Corbyn on student debt will become a feature every time he makes a silly pledge again. Brexit is irrelevant to the vast majority of people, debt in all its forms is the elephant in the room.

https://twitter.com/sharonhodgsonmp/status/870592575232716800

Casino_Royale · July 2017

On topic, Corbyn/McDonnell and the hard Left (including the likes of Milne) are all Leavers so this shouldn't affect the political debate until it's too late, in about 2 years time.

The key risk is how much latitude the leadership allow Labour MPs to play politics over the Great Repeal Bill, where it will come down to a battle of amendments, but I (still) expect the Tory whipping operation to be more effective than Labour's there.

I know OGH is always looking (and hoping) for a reason for Brexit to collapse, but this isn't one of them.

GeoffM · July 2017

freetochoose said:

foxinsoxuk said:

freetochoose said:

foxinsoxuk said:

IanB2 said:
His sentiments are of course out of line with most of his MPs, almost all of whom are remainers, some very committed. Their view of his campaigning abilities, and some of his politics, may have changed, but with Brexit at least we are still in the territory where almost all of them would sign his death warrant. Labour is riding high, so this won't matter until it matters. When it does, things might get interesting, for us and for him.
If Brexit became an issue that brought down a Tory government, then Jezza would find it useful. It is simply a lower priority for him than other aspects of foreign policy in the Middle East etc. He is against, but way down the list of priorities.

Labour can ride two horses at once for a long while yet, it is why Lab gained share in both the most Remain and the most Leave constituencies that they hold. They only need to come to a position after taking power.

A Fox style TTIP arrangement with America, where we buy their substandard foods in return for selling them the NHS, combined with an increasingly indebted set of Millenials are both issues where Labour will rake in votes.
I suppose the fact that none of these things are going to happen is irrelevant.

I read a Spurs forum where fans say we should make a cheeky bid for Messi, it is as realistic as some of the hogwash Remainers are predicting on here. You are projecting what you want as opposed to dealing with reality.
It is our Trade minister that is proposing such a deal, so a very valid area of attack on Tory policy:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4084857/cabinet-split-over-liam-foxs-plan-to-allow-import-of-controversial-chlorine-washed-chickens-to-help-secure-us-trade-deal-post-brexit/

Jezza and Labour are right to highlight the shape of Brexit, It is what is going to put them in power.
What about the bit where we sell them the NHS?

As for indebted Millenials, did you see Corbyn re student debt the other day?

I repeat, what you hope for is a million miles from reality, hence my comparison with Spurs signing Messi.

One of the more annoying things I find these days is when people try to scaremonger but it's actually, ironically, threatening to take me in the direction I really want to go.

This "selling the NHS" is completely untrue, despite my briefly kindled hope and joy that it might be on the table.

Jonathan · July 2017

Corbyn is the only viable alternative.

Until that changes...

GeoffM · July 2017

Casino_Royale said:
Worth noting from that graph that the Conservatives are now overwhelmingly a Leavers party.

Yes. Whichever way they might have individually voted they've swung behind the expressed will of the people .... and are now aligned to fight for the country and make a success of Brexit.

Putting Country first. A great thing to see.

freetochoose · July 2017

GeoffM said:

freetochoose said:

foxinsoxuk said:

freetochoose said:

foxinsoxuk said:

IanB2 said:
His sentiments are of course out of line with most of his MPs, almost all of whom are remainers, some very committed. Their view of his campaigning abilities, and some of his politics, may have changed, but with Brexit at least we are still in the territory where almost all of them would sign his death warrant. Labour is riding high, so this won't matter until it matters. When it does, things might get interesting, for us and for him.
If Brexit became an issue that brought down a Tory government, then Jezza would find it useful. It is simply a lower priority for him than other aspects of foreign policy in the Middle East etc. He is against, but way down the list of priorities.

Labour can ride two horses at once for a long while yet, it is why Lab gained share in both the most Remain and the most Leave constituencies that they hold. They only need to come to a position after taking power.

A Fox style TTIP arrangement with America, where we buy their substandard foods in return for selling them the NHS, combined with an increasingly indebted set of Millenials are both issues where Labour will rake in votes.
I suppose the fact that none of these things are going to happen is irrelevant.

I read a Spurs forum where fans say we should make a cheeky bid for Messi, it is as realistic as some of the hogwash Remainers are predicting on here. You are projecting what you want as opposed to dealing with reality.
It is our Trade minister that is proposing such a deal, so a very valid area of attack on Tory policy:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4084857/cabinet-split-over-liam-foxs-plan-to-allow-import-of-controversial-chlorine-washed-chickens-to-help-secure-us-trade-deal-post-brexit/

Jezza and Labour are right to highlight the shape of Brexit, It is what is going to put them in power.
What about the bit where we sell them the NHS?

As for indebted Millenials, did you see Corbyn re student debt the other day?

I repeat, what you hope for is a million miles from reality, hence my comparison with Spurs signing Messi.
One of the more annoying things I find these days is when people try to scaremonger but it's actually, ironically, threatening to take me in the direction I really want to go.

This "selling the NHS" is completely untrue, despite my briefly kindled hope and joy that it might be on the table.

Exactly. I want us to privatise the NHS, when I read Lefties on here predicting that I get temporarily optimistic.

I have to chuckle at @foxinsox, he's predicting we'll swap the NHS for a few chickens.

Nigelb · July 2017

foxinsoxuk said:
I trust Lab more over Brexit, and am not alone with that. Corbyn has always been more Eurosceptic than most in Labour, but the reason that Labour switched from a Eurosceptic position to a pro EU one was the 1980's shift of the EU into the social sphere. It stopped being a capitalists club, and shifted to being a Social Democratic one, the same reason Tory Euroscepticism ran riot. Pan Europeanism is a core LD value for much the same reason. We LDs see more in common with our European neighbours politically, than with either Tories or hard Left domestically.

Nonetheless, I would prefer a Labour Brexit to a Tory one. It would be one negotiated by Starmer and Jezza would not be so obsessed with immigration, or Free Trade deals that favour US Multinationals. It is not so much a softer Brexit, as a better one.

Student fees are going to run and run, and at least Jezza recognises these chains of debt on our young. That clamour is only going to get louder. Everyone acknowledges that there will be substantial write offs, the only question is whether that happens after 30 years of crushed life or much sooner. Other European countries manage with much lower fees, as do our BRIC competitors, and even the USA, why are we so different?

I don't trust either of them at all (the only rational position, I think).
A Tory Brexit followed and compounded by the economic policies of a Corbyn government is perhaps the worst of all possible worlds.

IanB2 · July 2017

GeoffM said:

Casino_Royale said:
Worth noting from that graph that the Conservatives are now overwhelmingly a Leavers party.
Yes. Whichever way they might have individually voted they've swung behind the expressed will of the people .... and are now aligned to fight for the country and make a success of Brexit.

Putting Country first. A great thing to see.

Rather, remainers are the votes the Tories have lost, compared to the majority they might have had.

Monksfield · July 2017

freetochoose said:

Roger said:
Following the Blair precedent of 1997 the wisest thing for the Tories to do would be to choose a Remainer as their new Leader.

The Tory Leavers would have no where else to go and Corbyn would lose a huge chunk of his support.
The Tory leader is a Remainer

The Tory Leader was whatever she thought was best for her. She's the political version of the hokey cokey.

DecrepitJohnL · July 2017

Scott_P said:

freetochoose said:
Corbyn on student debt will become a feature every time he makes a silly pledge again. Brexit is irrelevant to the vast majority of people, debt in all its forms is the elephant in the room.
https://twitter.com/sharonhodgsonmp/status/870592575232716800

So the Tory masterplan is to remind voters constantly that Jeremy Corbyn said something popular. Are you sure this has been thought through even as well as the debt on/off pledge?

AlastairMeeks · July 2017

IanB2 said:

GeoffM said:

Casino_Royale said:
Worth noting from that graph that the Conservatives are now overwhelmingly a Leavers party.
Yes. Whichever way they might have individually voted they've swung behind the expressed will of the people .... and are now aligned to fight for the country and make a success of Brexit.

Putting Country first. A great thing to see.
Rather, remainers are the votes the Tories have lost, compared to the majority they might have had.

You do have to wonder about the 10% of the electorate that voted Remain and have stuck with the Conservatives. How much more Brexiting are they going to put up with?

Nigelb · July 2017

GeoffM said:

freetochoose said:

foxinsoxuk said:

freetochoose said:

foxinsoxuk said:

IanB2 said:
His sentiments are of course out of line with most of his MPs, almost all of whom are remainers, some very committed. Their view of his campaigning abilities, and some of his politics, may have changed, but with Brexit at least we are still in the territory where almost all of them would sign his death warrant. Labour is riding high, so this won't matter until it matters. When it does, things might get interesting, for us and for him.
If Brexit became an issue that brought down a Tory government, then Jezza would find it useful. It is simply a lower priority for him than other aspects of foreign policy in the Middle East etc. He is against, but way down the list of priorities.

Labour can ride two horses at once for a long while yet, it is why Lab gained share in both the most Remain and the most Leave constituencies that they hold. They only need to come to a position after taking power.

A Fox style TTIP arrangement with America, where we buy their substandard foods in return for selling them the NHS, combined with an increasingly indebted set of Millenials are both issues where Labour will rake in votes.
I suppose the fact that none of these things are going to happen is irrelevant.

I read a Spurs forum where fans say we should make a cheeky bid for Messi, it is as realistic as some of the hogwash Remainers are predicting on here. You are projecting what you want as opposed to dealing with reality.
It is our Trade minister that is proposing such a deal, so a very valid area of attack on Tory policy:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4084857/cabinet-split-over-liam-foxs-plan-to-allow-import-of-controversial-chlorine-washed-chickens-to-help-secure-us-trade-deal-post-brexit/

Jezza and Labour are right to highlight the shape of Brexit, It is what is going to put them in power.
What about the bit where we sell them the NHS?

As for indebted Millenials, did you see Corbyn re student debt the other day?

I repeat, what you hope for is a million miles from reality, hence my comparison with Spurs signing Messi.
One of the more annoying things I find these days is when people try to scaremonger but it's actually, ironically, threatening to take me in the direction I really want to go.

This "selling the NHS" is completely untrue, despite my briefly kindled hope and joy that it might be on the table.

You want us to sell the NHS to the US because they've made such a spectacular success of their healthcare system ?
Interesting.

malcolmg · July 2017

foxinsoxuk said:
I trust Lab more over Brexit, and am not alone with that. Corbyn has always been more Eurosceptic than most in Labour, but the reason that Labour switched from a Eurosceptic position to a pro EU one was the 1980's shift of the EU into the social sphere. It stopped being a capitalists club, and shifted to being a Social Democratic one, the same reason Tory Euroscepticism ran riot. Pan Europeanism is a core LD value for much the same reason. We LDs see more in common with our European neighbours politically, than with either Tories or hard Left domestically.

Nonetheless, I would prefer a Labour Brexit to a Tory one. It would be one negotiated by Starmer and Jezza would not be so obsessed with immigration, or Free Trade deals that favour US Multinationals. It is not so much a softer Brexit, as a better one.

Student fees are going to run and run, and at least Jezza recognises these chains of debt on our young. That clamour is only going to get louder. Everyone acknowledges that there will be substantial write offs, the only question is whether that happens after 30 years of crushed life or much sooner. Other European countries manage with much lower fees, as do our BRIC competitors, and even the USA, why are we so different?

Much as I hate the Tories , labour are shysters cut from the same cloth, I would not trust them as far as I could throw them.

Scott_P · July 2017

DecrepitJohnL said:
So the Tory masterplan is to remind voters constantly that Jeremy Corbyn said something popular.

He claims he didn't say it...

OldKingCole · July 2017

Beginning to think Corbyn is in the Trump school of politics. Say whatever you think will be popular, but do something different. Often dramatically different!

Jonathan · July 2017

DecrepitJohnL said:

Scott_P said:

freetochoose said:
Corbyn on student debt will become a feature every time he makes a silly pledge again. Brexit is irrelevant to the vast majority of people, debt in all its forms is the elephant in the room.
https://twitter.com/sharonhodgsonmp/status/870592575232716800
So the Tory masterplan is to remind voters constantly that Jeremy Corbyn said something popular. Are you sure this has been thought through even as well as the debt on/off pledge?

Like the Corbyn attacks this is misguided. It paints a picture of a man trying to make a difference against opposition from the system. It's exactly where he likes to be.

GeoffM · July 2017

Nigelb said:

GeoffM said:

freetochoose said:

foxinsoxuk said:

freetochoose said:

foxinsoxuk said:

IanB2 said:
His sentiments are of course out of line with most of his MPs, almost all of whom are remainers, some very committed. Their view of his campaigning abilities, and some of his politics, may have changed, but with Brexit at least we are still in the territory where almost all of them would sign his death warrant. Labour is riding high, so this won't matter until it matters. When it does, things might get interesting, for us and for him.
If Brexit became an issue that brought down a Tory government, then Jezza would find it useful. It is simply a lower priority for him than other aspects of foreign policy in the Middle East etc. He is against, but way down the list of priorities.

Labour can ride two horses at once for a long while yet, it is why Lab gained share in both the most Remain and the most Leave constituencies that they hold. They only need to come to a position after taking power.

A Fox style TTIP arrangement with America, where we buy their substandard foods in return for selling them the NHS, combined with an increasingly indebted set of Millenials are both issues where Labour will rake in votes.
I suppose the fact that none of these things are going to happen is irrelevant.

I read a Spurs forum where fans say we should make a cheeky bid for Messi, it is as realistic as some of the hogwash Remainers are predicting on here. You are projecting what you want as opposed to dealing with reality.
It is our Trade minister that is proposing such a deal, so a very valid area of attack on Tory policy:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4084857/cabinet-split-over-liam-foxs-plan-to-allow-import-of-controversial-chlorine-washed-chickens-to-help-secure-us-trade-deal-post-brexit/

Jezza and Labour are right to highlight the shape of Brexit, It is what is going to put them in power.
What about the bit where we sell them the NHS?

As for indebted Millenials, did you see Corbyn re student debt the other day?

I repeat, what you hope for is a million miles from reality, hence my comparison with Spurs signing Messi.
One of the more annoying things I find these days is when people try to scaremonger but it's actually, ironically, threatening to take me in the direction I really want to go.

This "selling the NHS" is completely untrue, despite my briefly kindled hope and joy that it might be on the table.
You want us to sell the NHS to the US because they've made such a spectacular success of their healthcare system ?
Interesting.

Not all in one go - that's not practical.

The profitable bits would be the most valuable.

DecrepitJohnL · July 2017

freetochoose said:

GeoffM said:

freetochoose said:

foxinsoxuk said:

It is our Trade minister that is proposing such a deal, so a very valid area of attack on Tory policy:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4084857/cabinet-split-over-liam-foxs-plan-to-allow-import-of-controversial-chlorine-washed-chickens-to-help-secure-us-trade-deal-post-brexit/

Jezza and Labour are right to highlight the shape of Brexit, It is what is going to put them in power.
What about the bit where we sell them the NHS?

As for indebted Millenials, did you see Corbyn re student debt the other day?

I repeat, what you hope for is a million miles from reality, hence my comparison with Spurs signing Messi.
One of the more annoying things I find these days is when people try to scaremonger but it's actually, ironically, threatening to take me in the direction I really want to go.

This "selling the NHS" is completely untrue, despite my briefly kindled hope and joy that it might be on the table.
Exactly. I want us to privatise the NHS, when I read Lefties on here predicting that I get temporarily optimistic.

I have to chuckle at @foxinsox, he's predicting we'll swap the NHS for a few chickens.

The danger is that we might do just that if the government is desperate enough for an off-the-shelf trade deal with America. We've seen glimpses of America's proposed trade deals before, remember.

malcolmg · July 2017

SandyRentool said:

Sean_F said:
Some well-off Londoners who voted Labour in order to stop Brexit may feel buyers' remorse.

But, most of Corbyn's admirers are so because they want to destroy capitalism. Corbyn's attitude to the EU has no bearing on this.
Doesn't Ruthie want to destroy capitalism these days?

Unfortunately she seems to want to replace it with.... a different kind of capitalism.

It's progress, I suppose.

She has been in hiding since general election, the "Scottish" branch office Tories feeble poodle status at Westminster is not a good look. She is busy playing at soldiers nowadays.

Scott_P · July 2017

Jonathan said:
Like the Corbyn attacks this is misguided. It paints a picture of a man trying to make a difference against opposition from the system. It's exactly where he likes to be.

The tweet is from a Labour MP, encouraging young voters to vote Labour to have their debt wiped out.

A position Corbyn now resiles from

This is not a Tory attack. This is reality biting Corbyn on the ass

Jonathan · July 2017

DecrepitJohnL said:

freetochoose said:

GeoffM said:

freetochoose said:

foxinsoxuk said:

It is our Trade minister that is proposing such a deal, so a very valid area of attack on Tory policy:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4084857/cabinet-split-over-liam-foxs-plan-to-allow-import-of-controversial-chlorine-washed-chickens-to-help-secure-us-trade-deal-post-brexit/

Jezza and Labour are right to highlight the shape of Brexit, It is what is going to put them in power.
What about the bit where we sell them the NHS?

As for indebted Millenials, did you see Corbyn re student debt the other day?

I repeat, what you hope for is a million miles from reality, hence my comparison with Spurs signing Messi.
One of the more annoying things I find these days is when people try to scaremonger but it's actually, ironically, threatening to take me in the direction I really want to go.

This "selling the NHS" is completely untrue, despite my briefly kindled hope and joy that it might be on the table.
Exactly. I want us to privatise the NHS, when I read Lefties on here predicting that I get temporarily optimistic.

I have to chuckle at @foxinsox, he's predicting we'll swap the NHS for a few chickens.
The danger is that we might do just that if the government is desperate enough for an off-the-shelf trade deal with America. We've seen glimpses of America's proposed trade deals before, remember.

We know that the Tories will open the country's chequebook if it will save their political skin. If it floats their ideological boat they'll enthusiastically sell us down the river.

DavidL · July 2017

Brexit is just an example of the lack of consideration given to Labour's policies at the last election. The polling companies bear a heavy responsibility for that because they made such a consideration seem pointless. Those who opposed what the Tories wanted to do or even had reservations about giving May a massive majority voted accordingly without even appreciating that on this there was barely a fag paper between the two parties.

All very frustrating for the Lib Dems of course. Can they do better now than they did under the hapless Farron? It is possible that some remainer support will start to peel away from Labour resulting in the loss of their poll lead, such as it is. I have my doubts though. Remainers seem to have few options in the current political sphere.

Peter_the_Punter · July 2017

Nigelb said:

foxinsoxuk said:
I trust Lab more over Brexit, and am not alone with that. Corbyn has always been more Eurosceptic than most in Labour, but the reason that Labour switched from a Eurosceptic position to a pro EU one was the 1980's shift of the EU into the social sphere. It stopped being a capitalists club, and shifted to being a Social Democratic one, the same reason Tory Euroscepticism ran riot. Pan Europeanism is a core LD value for much the same reason. We LDs see more in common with our European neighbours politically, than with either Tories or hard Left domestically.

Nonetheless, I would prefer a Labour Brexit to a Tory one. It would be one negotiated by Starmer and Jezza would not be so obsessed with immigration, or Free Trade deals that favour US Multinationals. It is not so much a softer Brexit, as a better one.

Student fees are going to run and run, and at least Jezza recognises these chains of debt on our young. That clamour is only going to get louder. Everyone acknowledges that there will be substantial write offs, the only question is whether that happens after 30 years of crushed life or much sooner. Other European countries manage with much lower fees, as do our BRIC competitors, and even the USA, why are we so different?
I don't trust either of them at all (the only rational position, I think).
A Tory Brexit followed and compounded by the economic policies of a Corbyn government is perhaps the worst of all possible worlds.

It's the world you are likely to get, Nigel.

How can the Conservative Party backtrack when so many of its supporters remain wedded to Brexit? Yet when the next GE comes, the Party will bear the wrath of the electorate for leading the country out of a highly favourable set of economic and political arrangements for precious little in return. Doesn't matter what Corbyn thinks or says. The Conservative Party will own Brexit, just as Labour owned Iraq. The electoral consequences are obvious.

And we can't complain. We voted for it.

Jonathan · July 2017

Scott_P said:

Jonathan said:
Like the Corbyn attacks this is misguided. It paints a picture of a man trying to make a difference against opposition from the system. It's exactly where he likes to be.
The tweet is from a Labour MP, encouraging young voters to vote Labour to have their debt wiped out.

A position Corbyn now resiles from

This is not a Tory attack. This is reality biting Corbyn on the ass

It won't damage him. It will strengthen him.

Nigelb · July 2017

GeoffM said:

Nigelb said:

GeoffM said:

freetochoose said:

foxinsoxuk said:

freetochoose said:

foxinsoxuk said:

IanB2 said:
His sentiments are of course out of line with most of his MPs, almost all of whom are remainers, some very committed. Their view of his campaigning abilities, and some of his politics, may have changed, but with Brexit at least we are still in the territory where almost all of them would sign his death warrant. Labour is riding high, so this won't matter until it matters. When it does, things might get interesting, for us and for him.
If Brexit became an issue that brought down a Tory government, then Jezza would find it useful. It is simply a lower priority for him than other aspects of foreign policy in the Middle East etc. He is against, but way down the list of priorities...

A Fox style TTIP arrangement with America, where we buy their substandard foods in return for selling them the NHS, combined with an increasingly indebted set of Millenials are both issues where Labour will rake in votes.
I suppose the fact that none of these things are going to happen is irrelevant.

I read a Spurs forum where fans say we should make a cheeky bid for Messi, it is as realistic as some of the hogwash Remainers are predicting on here. You are projecting what you want as opposed to dealing with reality.
It is our Trade minister that is proposing such a deal, so a very valid area of attack on Tory policy:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4084857/cabinet-split-over-liam-foxs-plan-to-allow-import-of-controversial-chlorine-washed-chickens-to-help-secure-us-trade-deal-post-brexit/

Jezza and Labour are right to highlight the shape of Brexit, It is what is going to put them in power.
What about the bit where we sell them the NHS?

As for indebted Millenials, did you see Corbyn re student debt the other day?

I repeat, what you hope for is a million miles from reality, hence my comparison with Spurs signing Messi.
One of the more annoying things I find these days is when people try to scaremonger but it's actually, ironically, threatening to take me in the direction I really want to go.

This "selling the NHS" is completely untrue, despite my briefly kindled hope and joy that it might be on the table.
You want us to sell the NHS to the US because they've made such a spectacular success of their healthcare system ?
Interesting.
Not all in one go - that's not practical.

The profitable bits would be the most valuable.

From that response, it seems that you have little interest in the consequences of a sale, or indeed the practicalities - just the price achieved.

MJW · July 2017

The worry as a long time Labour voter who's pretty appalled by Corbyn in general but especially over his ignorance of or indifference to the consequences of hard Brexit is that two factors combine to ensure he doesn't get found out for the charlatan idiocy peddler he is until it's too late. Firstly the psychological pull of not admitting you got things wrong. It's going to be very difficult for those on the liberal left who've drunk the Corbyn Kool Aid to admit it was based on false promises and fantasy. Especially as to some the risk of those they've dubbed Blairites winning back the party is a fate worse than an economic disaster that would harm those they claim to want to help and make left-wing policies more economically unviable. Especially now the election has convinced many the project is destined to emerge triumphant. Secondly, and this goes for Brexit as a whole, it's such a far reaching and technical undertaking that it's difficult to spot a tuition fee or welfare cap moment where Corbyn puts himself unequivocally on the 'wrong' side of the argument. His defenders will always be able to claim his Brexit is somehow cuddlier right up until reality bites. Either in power or when the consequences of voting something through hit. As we saw with the Euratom thing there's endless scope for MPs voting through stuff without realising the technical consequences.

One thing that could provide it is Starmer, who is reported to be furious with Corbyn about his lies on the CU/SM, delivers a Geoffrey Howe style speech explaining why the leader Is betraying the values he purports to stand for. Is he up to it? No one thought Howe was.

Sean_F · July 2017

AlastairMeeks said:

IanB2 said:

GeoffM said:

Casino_Royale said:
Worth noting from that graph that the Conservatives are now overwhelmingly a Leavers party.
Yes. Whichever way they might have individually voted they've swung behind the expressed will of the people .... and are now aligned to fight for the country and make a success of Brexit.

Putting Country first. A great thing to see.
Rather, remainers are the votes the Tories have lost, compared to the majority they might have had.
You do have to wonder about the 10% of the electorate that voted Remain and have stuck with the Conservatives. How much more Brexiting are they going to put up with?

They would be mainly people like John O or Carlotta Vance. On balance, they voted Remain, but are pretty relaxed about Brexit.

One Yougov poll found 91% of Conservative voters want Brexit to go ahead, compared to 6% who want to stop it.

Nigelb · July 2017

Peter_the_Punter said:

Nigelb said:

foxinsoxuk said:
I trust Lab more over Brexit, and am not alone with that. Corbyn has always been more Eurosceptic than most in Labour, but the reason that Labour switched from a Eurosceptic position to a pro EU one was the 1980's shift of the EU into the social sphere. It stopped being a capitalists club, and shifted to being a Social Democratic one, the same reason Tory Euroscepticism ran riot. Pan Europeanism is a core LD value for much the same reason. We LDs see more in common with our European neighbours politically, than with either Tories or hard Left domestically.

Nonetheless, I would prefer a Labour Brexit to a Tory one. It would be one negotiated by Starmer and Jezza would not be so obsessed with immigration, or Free Trade deals that favour US Multinationals. It is not so much a softer Brexit, as a better one.

Student fees are going to run and run, and at least Jezza recognises these chains of debt on our young. That clamour is only going to get louder. Everyone acknowledges that there will be substantial write offs, the only question is whether that happens after 30 years of crushed life or much sooner. Other European countries manage with much lower fees, as do our BRIC competitors, and even the USA, why are we so different?
I don't trust either of them at all (the only rational position, I think).
A Tory Brexit followed and compounded by the economic policies of a Corbyn government is perhaps the worst of all possible worlds.
It's the world you are likely to get, Nigel.

How can the Conservative Party backtrack when so many of its supporters remain wedded to Brexit? Yet when the next GE comes, the Party will bear the wrath of the electorate for leading the country out of a highly favourable set of economic and political arrangements for precious little in return. Doesn't matter what Corbyn thinks or says. The Conservative Party will own Brexit, just as Labour owned Iraq. The electoral consequences are obvious.

And we can't complain. We voted for it.

I'm depressingly aware of all that.
I don't really give a damn about the electoral consequences - it's the practical ones which I'm invested in.

DecrepitJohnL · July 2017

Scott_P said:

DecrepitJohnL said:
So the Tory masterplan is to remind voters constantly that Jeremy Corbyn said something popular.
He claims he didn't say it...

And so what? It is popular, and the Conservatives are daily reminding voters why they should vote Labour. It is as daft as Labour telling everyone the Conservatives will lower income tax for everyone -- whether or not Hammond said it.

Jonathan · July 2017

Peter_the_Punter said:

Nigelb said:

foxinsoxuk said:
I trust Lab more over Brexit, and am not alone with that. Corbyn has always been more Eurosceptic than most in Labour, but the reason that Labour switched from a Eurosceptic position to a pro EU one was the 1980's shift of the EU into the social sphere. It stopped being a capitalists club, and shifted to being a Social Democratic one, the same reason Tory Euroscepticism ran riot. Pan Europeanism is a core LD value for much the same reason. We LDs see more in common with our European neighbours politically, than with either Tories or hard Left domestically.

Nonetheless, I would prefer a Labour Brexit to a Tory one. It would be one negotiated by Starmer and Jezza would not be so obsessed with immigration, or Free Trade deals that favour US Multinationals. It is not so much a softer Brexit, as a better one.

Student fees are going to run and run, and at least Jezza recognises these chains of debt on our young. That clamour is only going to get louder. Everyone acknowledges that there will be substantial write offs, the only question is whether that happens after 30 years of crushed life or much sooner. Other European countries manage with much lower fees, as do our BRIC competitors, and even the USA, why are we so different?
I don't trust either of them at all (the only rational position, I think).
A Tory Brexit followed and compounded by the economic policies of a Corbyn government is perhaps the worst of all possible worlds.
It's the world you are likely to get, Nigel.

How can the Conservative Party backtrack when so many of its supporters remain wedded to Brexit? Yet when the next GE comes, the Party will bear the wrath of the electorate for leading the country out of a highly favourable set of economic and political arrangements for precious little in return. Doesn't matter what Corbyn thinks or says. The Conservative Party will own Brexit, just as Labour owned Iraq. The electoral consequences are obvious.

And we can't complain. We voted for it.

People voted for Iraq supporting parties. Didn't stop complaints then. People will complain about Brexit

People complain. It's what we do. Good or ill. Right or wrong.

FF43 · July 2017

Corbyn is STILL talking about getting the benefits of the Single Market etc without being in it. Even Leaver Conservatives faced with reality and the responsibility of power have moved on. I don't think Corbyn is smart enough to maintain the deception.

Jonathan · July 2017

The fundamental point is that right now the only alternative to the Tories and their Brexit is Labour.

Until that changes, come election time if people are unhappy and want change he will get votes.

rkrkrk · July 2017

Scott_P said:

Jonathan said:
Like the Corbyn attacks this is misguided. It paints a picture of a man trying to make a difference against opposition from the system. It's exactly where he likes to be.
The tweet is from a Labour MP, encouraging young voters to vote Labour to have their debt wiped out.

A position Corbyn now resiles from

This is not a Tory attack. This is reality biting Corbyn on the ass

Sharon Hodgson has certainly misled students

freetochoose · July 2017

MJW said:
The worry as a long time Labour voter who's pretty appalled by Corbyn in general but especially over his ignorance of or indifference to the consequences of hard Brexit is that two factors combine to ensure he doesn't get found out for the charlatan idiocy peddler he is until it's too late. Firstly the psychological pull of not admitting you got things wrong. It's going to be very difficult for those on the liberal left who've drunk the Corbyn Kool Aid to admit it was based on false promises and fantasy. Especially as to some the risk of those they've dubbed Blairites winning back the party is a fate worse than an economic disaster that would harm those they claim to want to help and make left-wing policies more economically unviable. Especially now the election has convinced many the project is destined to emerge triumphant. Secondly, and this goes for Brexit as a whole, it's such a far reaching and technical undertaking that it's difficult to spot a tuition fee or welfare cap moment where Corbyn puts himself unequivocally on the 'wrong' side of the argument. His defenders will always be able to claim his Brexit is somehow cuddlier right up until reality bites. Either in power or when the consequences of voting something through hit. As we saw with the Euratom thing there's endless scope for MPs voting through stuff without realising the technical consequences.

One thing that could provide it is Starmer, who is reported to be furious with Corbyn about his lies on the CU/SM, delivers a Geoffrey Howe style speech explaining why the leader Is betraying the values he purports to stand for. Is he up to it? No one thought Howe was.

Very good post.

The only thing Starmer and Corbyn have in common is the colour of the rosette. The Labour Party is effectively 2 parties, the centrists and Momentum. They're enjoying themselves at the moment but tears are around the corner.

Nigelb · July 2017

FF43 said:
Corbyn is STILL talking about getting the benefits of the Single Market etc without being in it. Even Leaver Conservatives faced with reality and the responsibility of power have moved on. I don't think Corbyn is smart enough to maintain the deception.

Corbyn is just stupid enough to maintain the deception.

Morris_Dancer · July 2017

Good morning, everyone.

And lo, he shall wish to both leave and remain in the single market, and this contortion of reason shall be his sign, and all who love and follow him shall do likewise.

And those who do not this are not in the Jezbollah, peace be upon them, and nor are they Labourites, but instead they are Blairites, the dogs of the earth, and all shall know and despise them.

Question not the wisdom of the prophet, for his policy position moves in mysterious ways.

Peter_the_Punter · July 2017

Nigelb said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Nigelb said:

foxinsoxuk said:
I trust Lab more over Brexit, and am not alone with that. Corbyn has always been more Eurosceptic than most in Labour, but the reason that Labour switched from a Eurosceptic position to a pro EU one was the 1980's shift of the EU into the social sphere. It stopped being a capitalists club, and shifted to being a Social Democratic one, the same reason Tory Euroscepticism ran riot. Pan Europeanism is a core LD value for much the same reason. We LDs see more in common with our European neighbours politically, than with either Tories or hard Left domestically.

Nonetheless, I would prefer a Labour Brexit to a Tory one. It would be one negotiated by Starmer and Jezza would not be so obsessed with immigration, or Free Trade deals that favour US Multinationals. It is not so much a softer Brexit, as a better one.

Student fees are going to run and run, and at least Jezza recognises these chains of debt on our young. That clamour is only going to get louder. Everyone acknowledges that there will be substantial write offs, the only question is whether that happens after 30 years of crushed life or much sooner. Other European countries manage with much lower fees, as do our BRIC competitors, and even the USA, why are we so different?
I don't trust either of them at all (the only rational position, I think).
A Tory Brexit followed and compounded by the economic policies of a Corbyn government is perhaps the worst of all possible worlds.
It's the world you are likely to get, Nigel.

How can the Conservative Party backtrack when so many of its supporters remain wedded to Brexit? Yet when the next GE comes, the Party will bear the wrath of the electorate for leading the country out of a highly favourable set of economic and political arrangements for precious little in return. Doesn't matter what Corbyn thinks or says. The Conservative Party will own Brexit, just as Labour owned Iraq. The electoral consequences are obvious.

And we can't complain. We voted for it.
I'm depressingly aware of all that.
I don't really give a damn about the electoral consequences - it's the practical ones which I'm invested in.

Me too. It's cost me a pretty penny so far. And my children. But hey ho, mustn't grumble, must we?

AlastairMeeks · July 2017

Sean_F said:

AlastairMeeks said:

IanB2 said:

GeoffM said:

Casino_Royale said:
Worth noting from that graph that the Conservatives are now overwhelmingly a Leavers party.
Yes. Whichever way they might have individually voted they've swung behind the expressed will of the people .... and are now aligned to fight for the country and make a success of Brexit.

Putting Country first. A great thing to see.
Rather, remainers are the votes the Tories have lost, compared to the majority they might have had.
You do have to wonder about the 10% of the electorate that voted Remain and have stuck with the Conservatives. How much more Brexiting are they going to put up with?
They would be mainly people like John O or Carlotta Vance. On balance, they voted Remain, but are pretty relaxed about Brexit.

One Yougov poll found 91% of Conservative voters want Brexit to go ahead, compared to 6% who want to stop it.

That's a much less helpful statistic than you might think. I don't want to stop Brexit. A large slab of the electorate thinks it is a mistake but defers to democracy. That should not be equated with enthusiasm for it or warmth towards those advocating it.

The Conservatives, as the party of Brexit, have a very vulnerable flank.

Scott_P · July 2017

freetochoose said:
The only thing Starmer and Corbyn have in common is the colour of the rosette. The Labour Party is effectively 2 parties, the centrists and Momentum. They're enjoying themselves at the moment but tears are around the corner.

The same is true of the Tories. The realists and the headbangers.

What is most disappointing is that while Momentum and the headbangers share a common agenda, Parliamentary arithmetic prevents the realists and centrists from acting together

Scott_P · July 2017

Morris_Dancer said:
Good morning, everyone.

And lo, he shall wish to both leave and remain in the single market, and this contortion of reason shall be his sign, and all who love and follow him shall do likewise.

And those who do not this are not in the Jezbollah, peace be upon them, and nor are they Labourites, but instead they are Blairites, the dogs of the earth, and all shall know and despise them.

Question not the wisdom of the prophet, for his policy position moves in mysterious ways.

In January, Barry Gardiner was a sinner, spreading false testimony that leaving the single market would be a disaster.

But now he has seen the light, and there is much rejoicing.

DavidL · July 2017

AlastairMeeks said:

IanB2 said:

GeoffM said:

Casino_Royale said:
Worth noting from that graph that the Conservatives are now overwhelmingly a Leavers party.
Yes. Whichever way they might have individually voted they've swung behind the expressed will of the people .... and are now aligned to fight for the country and make a success of Brexit.

Putting Country first. A great thing to see.
Rather, remainers are the votes the Tories have lost, compared to the majority they might have had.
You do have to wonder about the 10% of the electorate that voted Remain and have stuck with the Conservatives. How much more Brexiting are they going to put up with?

Surely the bigger question is how many of the 66% of Labour voters who want to remain will continue to support leaving the CU and the SM? The evidence to date is that they don't seem to care enough to switch. Will that change?

Jonathan · July 2017

No sign today that a viable alternative is going to emerge from the Lib Dems, the Tory left or Labour right.

But which is most likely?

Roger · July 2017

I heard an interesting interview on Radio 4 with an economist who said to those who thought we'd been mislead by the doomsters promising Armageddon if we voted Leave and it hadn't happened......

'That's because they're talking about the Referendum not Brexit. If no deal is done we don't only lose free trade with the 27 but also the 60 countries with whom the EU has free trade deals'

This she believed was the direction of travel in the negotiations and would be seriously detrimental to our wellbeing.

The more we delve into the entrails of what Leaving means the more stark it's becoming that it's anything but a simple panacea for keeping foreigners out. It's as unpredictable as a meteor hurtling towards Stoke.....

AlastairMeeks · July 2017

DavidL said:

AlastairMeeks said:

IanB2 said:

GeoffM said:

Casino_Royale said:
Worth noting from that graph that the Conservatives are now overwhelmingly a Leavers party.
Yes. Whichever way they might have individually voted they've swung behind the expressed will of the people .... and are now aligned to fight for the country and make a success of Brexit.

Putting Country first. A great thing to see.
Rather, remainers are the votes the Tories have lost, compared to the majority they might have had.
You do have to wonder about the 10% of the electorate that voted Remain and have stuck with the Conservatives. How much more Brexiting are they going to put up with?
Surely the bigger question is how many of the 66% of Labour voters who want to remain will continue to support leaving the CU and the SM? The evidence to date is that they don't seem to care enough to switch. Will that change?

It's asymmetric. The Conservatives are the party of Brexit. Labour is not the party of Remain. Many Remain voters turned away from the Conservatives because of Brexit, and then voted for Labour for different reasons. They are unlikely to abandon Labour unless it too positions itself as a party of Brexit. So far it has not done that.

DavidL · July 2017

Jonathan said:
No sign today that a viable alternative is going to emerge from the Lib Dems, the Tory left or Labour right.

But which is most likely?

NOTA.

Scott_P · July 2017

AlastairMeeks said:
They are unlikely to abandon Labour unless it too positions itself as a party of Brexit. So far it has not done that.

It's trying pretty hard right now

Casino_Royale · July 2017

Sean_F said:

AlastairMeeks said:

IanB2 said:

GeoffM said:

Casino_Royale said:
Worth noting from that graph that the Conservatives are now overwhelmingly a Leavers party.
Yes. Whichever way they might have individually voted they've swung behind the expressed will of the people .... and are now aligned to fight for the country and make a success of Brexit.

Putting Country first. A great thing to see.
Rather, remainers are the votes the Tories have lost, compared to the majority they might have had.
You do have to wonder about the 10% of the electorate that voted Remain and have stuck with the Conservatives. How much more Brexiting are they going to put up with?
They would be mainly people like John O or Carlotta Vance. On balance, they voted Remain, but are pretty relaxed about Brexit.

One Yougov poll found 91% of Conservative voters want Brexit to go ahead, compared to 6% who want to stop it.

There's TSE and ScottP too, though.

DavidL · July 2017

AlastairMeeks said:

DavidL said:

AlastairMeeks said:

IanB2 said:

GeoffM said:

Casino_Royale said:
Worth noting from that graph that the Conservatives are now overwhelmingly a Leavers party.
Yes. Whichever way they might have individually voted they've swung behind the expressed will of the people .... and are now aligned to fight for the country and make a success of Brexit.

Putting Country first. A great thing to see.
Rather, remainers are the votes the Tories have lost, compared to the majority they might have had.
You do have to wonder about the 10% of the electorate that voted Remain and have stuck with the Conservatives. How much more Brexiting are they going to put up with?
Surely the bigger question is how many of the 66% of Labour voters who want to remain will continue to support leaving the CU and the SM? The evidence to date is that they don't seem to care enough to switch. Will that change?
It's asymmetric. The Conservatives are the party of Brexit. Labour is not the party of Remain. Many Remain voters turned away from the Conservatives because of Brexit, and then voted for Labour for different reasons. They are unlikely to abandon Labour unless it too positions itself as a party of Brexit. So far it has not done that.

But it has. And it is becoming increasingly obvious that it has. There must be some very unhappy people in Labour at the moment. Will they speak out?

geoffw · July 2017

AlastairMeeks said:

DavidL said:

AlastairMeeks said:

IanB2 said:

GeoffM said:

Casino_Royale said:
Worth noting from that graph that the Conservatives are now overwhelmingly a Leavers party.
Yes. Whichever way they might have individually voted they've swung behind the expressed will of the people .... and are now aligned to fight for the country and make a success of Brexit.

Putting Country first. A great thing to see.
Rather, remainers are the votes the Tories have lost, compared to the majority they might have had.
You do have to wonder about the 10% of the electorate that voted Remain and have stuck with the Conservatives. How much more Brexiting are they going to put up with?
Surely the bigger question is how many of the 66% of Labour voters who want to remain will continue to support leaving the CU and the SM? The evidence to date is that they don't seem to care enough to switch. Will that change?
It's asymmetric. The Conservatives are the party of Brexit. Labour is not the party of Remain. Many Remain voters turned away from the Conservatives because of Brexit, and then voted for Labour for different reasons. They are unlikely to abandon Labour unless it too positions itself as a party of Brexit. So far it has not done that.

Labour dissembling over its Brexit position will be delicious to follow.

PClipp · July 2017

foxinsoxuk said:
I trust Lab more over Brexit, and am not alone with that. Corbyn has always been more Eurosceptic than most in Labour, but the reason that Labour switched from a Eurosceptic position to a pro EU one was the 1980's shift of the EU into the social sphere. It stopped being a capitalists club, and shifted to being a Social Democratic one, the same reason Tory Euroscepticism ran riot. Pan Europeanism is a core LD value for much the same reason. We LDs see more in common with our European neighbours politically, than with either Tories or hard Left domestically.

Nonetheless, I would prefer a Labour Brexit to a Tory one. It would be one negotiated by Starmer and Jezza would not be so obsessed with immigration, or Free Trade deals that favour US Multinationals. It is not so much a softer Brexit, as a better one.

Student fees are going to run and run, and at least Jezza recognises these chains of debt on our young. That clamour is only going to get louder. Everyone acknowledges that there will be substantial write offs, the only question is whether that happens after 30 years of crushed life or much sooner. Other European countries manage with much lower fees, as do our BRIC competitors, and even the USA, why are we so different?

Possibly because the people running our universities got greedy, upped tuition fees tothe maximum that the government wold allow, and the problem of final paying off of the debt was left until another day.

Scrapheap_as_was · July 2017

AlastairMeeks said:

IanB2 said:

GeoffM said:

Casino_Royale said:
Worth noting from that graph that the Conservatives are now overwhelmingly a Leavers party.
Yes. Whichever way they might have individually voted they've swung behind the expressed will of the people .... and are now aligned to fight for the country and make a success of Brexit.

Putting Country first. A great thing to see.
Rather, remainers are the votes the Tories have lost, compared to the majority they might have had.
You do have to wonder about the 10% of the electorate that voted Remain and have stuck with the Conservatives. How much more Brexiting are they going to put up with?

It cuts both ways if you say your aren't obsessed by Europe - whilst Ken Clarke, Soubry et al can stay, so can I.

OldKingCole · July 2017

Jonathan said:
No sign today that a viable alternative is going to emerge from the Lib Dems, the Tory left or Labour right.

But which is most likely?

The Remain equivalent of UKIP?

freetochoose · July 2017

Scott_P said:

freetochoose said:
The only thing Starmer and Corbyn have in common is the colour of the rosette. The Labour Party is effectively 2 parties, the centrists and Momentum. They're enjoying themselves at the moment but tears are around the corner.
The same is true of the Tories. The realists and the headbangers.

What is most disappointing is that while Momentum and the headbangers share a common agenda, Parliamentary arithmetic prevents the realists and centrists from acting together

Unfortunately for you the realists (as you would describe them) are a tiny minority.

Peter_the_Punter · July 2017

geoffw said:

AlastairMeeks said:

DavidL said:

AlastairMeeks said:

IanB2 said:

GeoffM said:

Casino_Royale said:
Worth noting from that graph that the Conservatives are now overwhelmingly a Leavers party.
Yes. Whichever way they might have individually voted they've swung behind the expressed will of the people .... and are now aligned to fight for the country and make a success of Brexit.

Putting Country first. A great thing to see.
Rather, remainers are the votes the Tories have lost, compared to the majority they might have had.
You do have to wonder about the 10% of the electorate that voted Remain and have stuck with the Conservatives. How much more Brexiting are they going to put up with?
Surely the bigger question is how many of the 66% of Labour voters who want to remain will continue to support leaving the CU and the SM? The evidence to date is that they don't seem to care enough to switch. Will that change?
It's asymmetric. The Conservatives are the party of Brexit. Labour is not the party of Remain. Many Remain voters turned away from the Conservatives because of Brexit, and then voted for Labour for different reasons. They are unlikely to abandon Labour unless it too positions itself as a party of Brexit. So far it has not done that.
Labour dissembling over its Brexit position will be delicious to follow.

In the unlikely event of Corbyn acceding before we Brexit, he would simply call a second referendum and then cynically comply with 'the will of people', just as May has done.

Morris_Dancer · July 2017

Mr. P, there is more joy in Heaven over one Blairite who sees the way of the Jezziah than over a hundred who have been loyal all along.

IanB2 · July 2017

AlastairMeeks said:

DavidL said:

AlastairMeeks said:

IanB2 said:

GeoffM said:

Casino_Royale said:
Worth noting from that graph that the Conservatives are now overwhelmingly a Leavers party.
Yes. Whichever way they might have individually voted they've swung behind the expressed will of the people .... and are now aligned to fight for the country and make a success of Brexit.

Putting Country first. A great thing to see.
Rather, remainers are the votes the Tories have lost, compared to the majority they might have had.
You do have to wonder about the 10% of the electorate that voted Remain and have stuck with the Conservatives. How much more Brexiting are they going to put up with?
Surely the bigger question is how many of the 66% of Labour voters who want to remain will continue to support leaving the CU and the SM? The evidence to date is that they don't seem to care enough to switch. Will that change?
It's asymmetric. The Conservatives are the party of Brexit. Labour is not the party of Remain. Many Remain voters turned away from the Conservatives because of Brexit, and then voted for Labour for different reasons. They are unlikely to abandon Labour unless it too positions itself as a party of Brexit. So far it has not done that.

Its leadership is trying - see Gardiner in today's Guardian. Nevertheless the instinct of most MPs and most members is for remain, and that will come into play if the opportunity to soften Brexit comes into alignment with an opportunity to defeat the Government.

To change Labour's position entirely would need a second referendum, which is why I still think there's a 20-25% chance that is where we will end up.

AlastairMeeks · July 2017

DavidL said:

AlastairMeeks said:

DavidL said:

AlastairMeeks said:

IanB2 said:

GeoffM said:

Casino_Royale said:
Worth noting from that graph that the Conservatives are now overwhelmingly a Leavers party.
Yes. Whichever way they might have individually voted they've swung behind the expressed will of the people .... and are now aligned to fight for the country and make a success of Brexit.

Putting Country first. A great thing to see.
Rather, remainers are the votes the Tories have lost, compared to the majority they might have had.
You do have to wonder about the 10% of the electorate that voted Remain and have stuck with the Conservatives. How much more Brexiting are they going to put up with?
Surely the bigger question is how many of the 66% of Labour voters who want to remain will continue to support leaving the CU and the SM? The evidence to date is that they don't seem to care enough to switch. Will that change?
It's asymmetric. The Conservatives are the party of Brexit. Labour is not the party of Remain. Many Remain voters turned away from the Conservatives because of Brexit, and then voted for Labour for different reasons. They are unlikely to abandon Labour unless it too positions itself as a party of Brexit. So far it has not done that.
But it has. And it is becoming increasingly obvious that it has. There must be some very unhappy people in Labour at the moment. Will they speak out?

Every time Wes Streeting or Chuka Umunna or whoever speaks out, it creates exactly the studied ambiguity the Labour leadership want. It signals to Remainers that Brexit under Labour would in some unspecified way be better, with fewer rough edges.

DavidL · July 2017

OldKingCole said:

Jonathan said:
No sign today that a viable alternative is going to emerge from the Lib Dems, the Tory left or Labour right.

But which is most likely?
The Remain equivalent of UKIP?

A realignment of Labour with a significant number of MPs such as Umunna and Cooper resigning the whip is a possibility, albeit a remote one.

Yorkcity · July 2017

The Conservatives took the UK into the EEC without a vote and will take us out of the EU with a vote.

geoffw · July 2017

Peter_the_Punter said:

geoffw said:

AlastairMeeks said:

DavidL said:

AlastairMeeks said:

IanB2 said:

GeoffM said:

Casino_Royale said:
Worth noting from that graph that the Conservatives are now overwhelmingly a Leavers party.
Yes. Whichever way they might have individually voted they've swung behind the expressed will of the people .... and are now aligned to fight for the country and make a success of Brexit.

Putting Country first. A great thing to see.
Rather, remainers are the votes the Tories have lost, compared to the majority they might have had.
You do have to wonder about the 10% of the electorate that voted Remain and have stuck with the Conservatives. How much more Brexiting are they going to put up with?
Surely the bigger question is how many of the 66% of Labour voters who want to remain will continue to support leaving the CU and the SM? The evidence to date is that they don't seem to care enough to switch. Will that change?
It's asymmetric. The Conservatives are the party of Brexit. Labour is not the party of Remain. Many Remain voters turned away from the Conservatives because of Brexit, and then voted for Labour for different reasons. They are unlikely to abandon Labour unless it too positions itself as a party of Brexit. So far it has not done that.
Labour dissembling over its Brexit position will be delicious to follow.
In the unlikely event of Corbyn acceding before we Brexit, he would simply call a second referendum and then cynically comply with 'the will of people', just as May has done.

What if the 'will of the people' were to rejoin the EU at that point? There must be a chance of that, and I doubt it would be to Jeremy's liking.

Luckyguy1983 · July 2017

AlastairMeeks said:

DavidL said:

AlastairMeeks said:

IanB2 said:

GeoffM said:

Casino_Royale said:
Worth noting from that graph that the Conservatives are now overwhelmingly a Leavers party.
Yes. Whichever way they might have individually voted they've swung behind the expressed will of the people .... and are now aligned to fight for the country and make a success of Brexit.

Putting Country first. A great thing to see.
Rather, remainers are the votes the Tories have lost, compared to the majority they might have had.
You do have to wonder about the 10% of the electorate that voted Remain and have stuck with the Conservatives. How much more Brexiting are they going to put up with?
Surely the bigger question is how many of the 66% of Labour voters who want to remain will continue to support leaving the CU and the SM? The evidence to date is that they don't seem to care enough to switch. Will that change?
It's asymmetric. The Conservatives are the party of Brexit. Labour is not the party of Remain. Many Remain voters turned away from the Conservatives because of Brexit, and then voted for Labour for different reasons. They are unlikely to abandon Labour unless it too positions itself as a party of Brexit. So far it has not done that.

Or.... everyone else doesn't define their political beliefs by their opinions on brexit the way you seem to.

david_herdson · July 2017

I agree with Mike that Corbyn "has got away with it so far" but I disagree that he's "playing a dangerous game": he's not playing a game at all.

Corbyn is a campaigner. He states what he believes and tries to win recruits to those beliefs. Occasionally, he will trim official Labour policy to the immediate needs of the moment - getting something through the NEC, for example - but the process never runs from establishing what is popular to developing policy to fit with that. After his experience these last three months, he and his supporters will no doubt feel a reinforced justification in that approach.

So Brexit? He can win them round, or so he'll believe. That or it won't matter if he can't.

And the truth is that it doesn't matter to him because ultimately, winning doesn't particularly matter to him. Sure, it's important and it's much nicer than the alternative but when the chips are down, it's better to lose with the right policies than win with the wrong ones.

He has got away with it so far and he'll continue to get away with it for a while yet. For one thing, his stock is high and it'd be a brave opponent to take him on. For another, I think there's a reticence among potential opponents because they still haven't really worked him out or how the politics around him work: it's not according to the normal rules and dynamics and as such, it's much harder for them (and us) to game. And for a third, those who did oppose him are now suffering the insults of his supporters for having cost Labour the election - an accusation that is hard to bear, not least because there may, as things turned out, be more than a grain of truth in it.

But at some point the tension will become too great. Corbyn is not terribly interested in the EU but to the extent that he is, it's at least as much of a hindrance as a help to his programme. For many in his party though, it's a core issue. That Corbyn is closer to many traditional Labour voters than his PLP here is an irony but beside the point. The future of the Labour leadership will depend only peripherally on the relative strengths of the Remainers and Corbynites among voters; it will be within parliament and the higher reaches of the Labour organisation that the tests of strength play out.

Roger · July 2017

Scrapheap_as_was said:

AlastairMeeks said:

IanB2 said:

GeoffM said:

Casino_Royale said:
Worth noting from that graph that the Conservatives are now overwhelmingly a Leavers party.
Yes. Whichever way they might have individually voted they've swung behind the expressed will of the people .... and are now aligned to fight for the country and make a success of Brexit.

Putting Country first. A great thing to see.
Rather, remainers are the votes the Tories have lost, compared to the majority they might have had.
You do have to wonder about the 10% of the electorate that voted Remain and have stuck with the Conservatives. How much more Brexiting are they going to put up with?
It cuts both ways if you say your aren't obsessed by Europe - whilst Ken Clarke, Soubry et al can stay, so can I.

And thank goodness they do. They're our Trogen Horse. When the shit really hits the fan as appears likely those two and a few others have the votes to put a stop to it.

DavidL · July 2017

AlastairMeeks said:

DavidL said:

AlastairMeeks said:

DavidL said:

AlastairMeeks said:

IanB2 said:

GeoffM said:

Casino_Royale said:
Worth noting from that graph that the Conservatives are now overwhelmingly a Leavers party.
Yes. Whichever way they might have individually voted they've swung behind the expressed will of the people .... and are now aligned to fight for the country and make a success of Brexit.

Putting Country first. A great thing to see.
Rather, remainers are the votes the Tories have lost, compared to the majority they might have had.
You do have to wonder about the 10% of the electorate that voted Remain and have stuck with the Conservatives. How much more Brexiting are they going to put up with?
Surely the bigger question is how many of the 66% of Labour voters who want to remain will continue to support leaving the CU and the SM? The evidence to date is that they don't seem to care enough to switch. Will that change?
It's asymmetric. The Conservatives are the party of Brexit. Labour is not the party of Remain. Many Remain voters turned away from the Conservatives because of Brexit, and then voted for Labour for different reasons. They are unlikely to abandon Labour unless it too positions itself as a party of Brexit. So far it has not done that.
But it has. And it is becoming increasingly obvious that it has. There must be some very unhappy people in Labour at the moment. Will they speak out?
Every time Wes Streeting or Chuka Umunna or whoever speaks out, it creates exactly the studied ambiguity the Labour leadership want. It signals to Remainers that Brexit under Labour would in some unspecified way be better, with fewer rough edges.

There is nothing particularly ambiguous about Corbyn's opposition to free movement of people undermining British workers. And whilst I appreciate that the vast majority don't give this a moment's thought it is obvious that such a position is incompatible with the SM. the crisis is coming in Labour. The Tories are more united on Europe now than they have been in 30 years.

CD13 · July 2017

Here is a prediction which will come true.

In 18 months or so, the Government will present the final deal to Parliament. The LDs will vote against whatever it is, as will the SNP. Labour will also do so - no matter what it will be.

The Tories and the DUP will vote for, apart from the rebels. The Government way well lose.

But we'll then leave the EU and each faction wil then blame the other for what they will both describe as the worst possible option.

Can we fast-forward and do away with the politicking in between?

Luckyguy1983 · July 2017

freetochoose said:

Scott_P said:

freetochoose said:
The only thing Starmer and Corbyn have in common is the colour of the rosette. The Labour Party is effectively 2 parties, the centrists and Momentum. They're enjoying themselves at the moment but tears are around the corner.
The same is true of the Tories. The realists and the headbangers.

What is most disappointing is that while Momentum and the headbangers share a common agenda, Parliamentary arithmetic prevents the realists and centrists from acting together
Unfortunately for you the realists (as you would describe them) are a tiny minority.

Scott hasn't realised his 'realists' are the new headbangers. Bless.

Sean_F · July 2017

Casino_Royale said:

Sean_F said:

AlastairMeeks said:

IanB2 said:

GeoffM said:

Casino_Royale said:
Worth noting from that graph that the Conservatives are now overwhelmingly a Leavers party.
Yes. Whichever way they might have individually voted they've swung behind the expressed will of the people .... and are now aligned to fight for the country and make a success of Brexit.

Putting Country first. A great thing to see.
Rather, remainers are the votes the Tories have lost, compared to the majority they might have had.
You do have to wonder about the 10% of the electorate that voted Remain and have stuck with the Conservatives. How much more Brexiting are they going to put up with?
They would be mainly people like John O or Carlotta Vance. On balance, they voted Remain, but are pretty relaxed about Brexit.

One Yougov poll found 91% of Conservative voters want Brexit to go ahead, compared to 6% who want to stop it.
There's TSE and ScottP too, though.

Sure, but how many people are there left, among those who currently support the Conservatives, who are really angry about Brexit?

kjh · July 2017

SeanT has just been accused of being a female impersonator on the Today programme!

Yorkcity · July 2017

Peter_the_Punter said:

geoffw said:

AlastairMeeks said:

DavidL said:

AlastairMeeks said:

IanB2 said:

GeoffM said:

Casino_Royale said:
Worth noting from that graph that the Conservatives are now overwhelmingly a Leavers party.
Yes. Whichever way they might have individually voted they've swung behind the expressed will of the people .... and are now aligned to fight for the country and make a success of Brexit.

Putting Country first. A great thing to see.
Rather, remainers are the votes the Tories have lost, compared to the majority they might have had.
You do have to wonder about the 10% of the electorate that voted Remain and have stuck with the Conservatives. How much more Brexiting are they going to put up with?
Surely the bigger question is how many of the 66% of Labour voters who want to remain will continue to support leaving the CU and the SM? The evidence to date is that they don't seem to care enough to switch. Will that change?
It's asymmetric. The Conservatives are the party of Brexit. Labour is not the party of Remain. Many Remain voters turned away from the Conservatives because of Brexit, and then voted for Labour for different reasons. They are unlikely to abandon Labour unless it too positions itself as a party of Brexit. So far it has not done that.
Labour dissembling over its Brexit position will be delicious to follow.
In the unlikely event of Corbyn acceding before we Brexit, he would simply call a second referendum and then cynically comply with 'the will of people', just as May has done.

Corbyn defers to the people fits in with his politics .

AlastairMeeks · July 2017

Sean_F said:

Casino_Royale said:

Sean_F said:

AlastairMeeks said:

IanB2 said:

GeoffM said:

Casino_Royale said:
Worth noting from that graph that the Conservatives are now overwhelmingly a Leavers party.
Yes. Whichever way they might have individually voted they've swung behind the expressed will of the people .... and are now aligned to fight for the country and make a success of Brexit.

Putting Country first. A great thing to see.
Rather, remainers are the votes the Tories have lost, compared to the majority they might have had.
You do have to wonder about the 10% of the electorate that voted Remain and have stuck with the Conservatives. How much more Brexiting are they going to put up with?
They would be mainly people like John O or Carlotta Vance. On balance, they voted Remain, but are pretty relaxed about Brexit.

One Yougov poll found 91% of Conservative voters want Brexit to go ahead, compared to 6% who want to stop it.
There's TSE and ScottP too, though.
Sure, but how many people are there left, among those who currently support the Conservatives, who are really angry about Brexit?

26% think it was the wrong decision. See above. They can look forward to five years of the Conservatives talking about nothing else other than their wrong decision.

Alanbrooke · July 2017

AlastairMeeks said:

IanB2 said:

GeoffM said:

Casino_Royale said:
Worth noting from that graph that the Conservatives are now overwhelmingly a Leavers party.
Yes. Whichever way they might have individually voted they've swung behind the expressed will of the people .... and are now aligned to fight for the country and make a success of Brexit.

Putting Country first. A great thing to see.
Rather, remainers are the votes the Tories have lost, compared to the majority they might have had.
You do have to wonder about the 10% of the electorate that voted Remain and have stuck with the Conservatives. How much more Brexiting are they going to put up with?

I suspect theyre well balanced people who have a life, and Brexit isnt the only thing in it.

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