Worth noting from that graph that the Conservatives are now overwhelmingly a Leavers party.
Yes. Whichever way they might have individually voted they've swung behind the expressed will of the people .... and are now aligned to fight for the country and make a success of Brexit.
Putting Country first. A great thing to see.
Rather, remainers are the votes the Tories have lost, compared to the majority they might have had.
You do have to wonder about the 10% of the electorate that voted Remain and have stuck with the Conservatives. How much more Brexiting are they going to put up with?
I suspect theyre well balanced people who have a life, and Brexit isnt the only thing in it.
Brexit is the only thing in the Conservative party right now. So if they have a life, they would be well-advised to explore it elsewhere.
Worth noting from that graph that the Conservatives are now overwhelmingly a Leavers party.
Yes. Whichever way they might have individually voted they've swung behind the expressed will of the people .... and are now aligned to fight for the country and make a success of Brexit.
Putting Country first. A great thing to see.
Rather, remainers are the votes the Tories have lost, compared to the majority they might have had.
You do have to wonder about the 10% of the electorate that voted Remain and have stuck with the Conservatives. How much more Brexiting are they going to put up with?
Surely the bigger question is how many of the 66% of Labour voters who want to remain will continue to support leaving the CU and the SM? The evidence to date is that they don't seem to care enough to switch. Will that change?
It's asymmetric. The Conservatives are the party of Brexit. Labour is not the party of Remain. Many Remain voters turned away from the Conservatives because of Brexit, and then voted for Labour for different reasons. They are unlikely to abandon Labour unless it too positions itself as a party of Brexit. So far it has not done that.
But it has. And it is becoming increasingly obvious that it has. There must be some very unhappy people in Labour at the moment. Will they speak out?
Every time Wes Streeting or Chuka Umunna or whoever speaks out, it creates exactly the studied ambiguity the Labour leadership want. It signals to Remainers that Brexit under Labour would in some unspecified way be better, with fewer rough edges.
There is nothing particularly ambiguous about Corbyn's opposition to free movement of people undermining British workers. And whilst I appreciate that the vast majority don't give this a moment's thought it is obvious that such a position is incompatible with the SM. the crisis is coming in Labour. The Tories are more united on Europe now than they have been in 30 years.
Worth noting from that graph that the Conservatives are now overwhelmingly a Leavers party.
Yes. Whichever way they might have individually voted they've swung behind the expressed will of the people .... and are now aligned to fight for the country and make a success of Brexit.
Putting Country first. A great thing to see.
Rather, remainers are the votes the Tories have lost, compared to the majority they might have had.
You do have to wonder about the 10% of the electorate that voted Remain and have stuck with the Conservatives. How much more Brexiting are they going to put up with?
Surely the bigger question is how many of the 66% of Labour voters who want to remain will continue to support leaving the CU and the SM? The evidence to date is that they don't seem to care enough to switch. Will that change?
It's asymmetric. The Conservatives are the party of Brexit. Labour is not the party of Remain. Many Remain voters turned away from the Conservatives because of Brexit, and then voted for Labour for different reasons. They are unlikely to abandon Labour unless it too positions itself as a party of Brexit. So far it has not done that.
Labour dissembling over its Brexit position will be delicious to follow.
In the unlikely event of Corbyn acceding before we Brexit, he would simply call a second referendum and then cynically comply with 'the will of people', just as May has done.
What if the 'will of the people' were to rejoin the EU at that point? There must be a chance of that, and I doubt it would be to Jeremy's liking.
He would do it. Why not? A large majority of his voters would support it.
Worth noting from that graph that the Conservatives are now overwhelmingly a Leavers party.
Yes. Whichever way they might have individually voted they've swung behind the expressed will of the people .... and are now aligned to fight for the country and make a success of Brexit.
Putting Country first. A great thing to see.
Rather, remainers are the votes the Tories have lost, compared to the majority they might have had.
You do have to wonder about the 10% of the electorate that voted Remain and have stuck with the Conservatives. How much more Brexiting are they going to put up with?
I suspect theyre well balanced people who have a life, and Brexit isnt the only thing in it.
Brexit is the only thing in the Conservative party right now. So if they have a life, they would be well-advised to explore it elsewhere.
Brexit seems to be the only thing in your life, which is sad.
However in the wider UK - cost of living, housing, uni fees, infrastructure, are much more important to voters
And in about 3 months time we'll have the annual NHS in crisis crisis
I'm waiting for Remainers to emerge blinking into the sun and reveal to us the kind of Britain (if any) they actually want, beyond finding a supranational body to defer to. Are they in favour of de-regulation, state intervention, low taxes, high taxes, balancing the books, borrowing to invest, rfid chips for all, vegetable alottments for all... I know they're anti-chlorine chicken, but that's about it, and I think that may be a Brexit thing too.
Could we have a halfway house where they engage in normal debate but end all their posts with *and this will be harder because of the disaster of Brexit.?
Worth noting from that graph that the Conservatives are now overwhelmingly a Leavers party.
Yes. Whichever way they might have individually voted they've swung behind the expressed will of the people .... and are now aligned to fight for the country and make a success of Brexit.
Putting Country first. A great thing to see.
Rather, remainers are the votes the Tories have lost, compared to the majority they might have had.
You do have to wonder about the 10% of the electorate that voted Remain and have stuck with the Conservatives. How much more Brexiting are they going to put up with?
I suspect theyre well balanced people who have a life, and Brexit isnt the only thing in it.
Brexit is the only thing in the Conservative party right now. So if they have a life, they would be well-advised to explore it elsewhere.
Brexit seems to be the only thing in your life, which is sad.
However in the wider UK - cost of living, housing, uni fees, infrastructure, are much more important to voters
And in about 3 months time we'll have the annual NHS in crisis crisis
And the Conservatives won't be heard on any of those subjects until they stop banging on about the EU. Meanwhile Labour fought an election campaign on such subjects and did far better than expected.
The only thing Starmer and Corbyn have in common is the colour of the rosette. The Labour Party is effectively 2 parties, the centrists and Momentum. They're enjoying themselves at the moment but tears are around the corner.
The same is true of the Tories. The realists and the headbangers.
What is most disappointing is that while Momentum and the headbangers share a common agenda, Parliamentary arithmetic prevents the realists and centrists from acting together
The realists being the ones who are accepting the will of the people, the headbangers are those like yourself that have a one-tracked obsession against Brexit.
Worth noting from that graph that the Conservatives are now overwhelmingly a Leavers party.
Yes. Whichever way they might have individually voted they've swung behind the expressed will of the people .... and are now aligned to fight for the country and make a success of Brexit.
Putting Country first. A great thing to see.
Rather, remainers are the votes the Tories have lost, compared to the majority they might have had.
You do have to wonder about the 10% of the electorate that voted Remain and have stuck with the Conservatives. How much more Brexiting are they going to put up with?
I suspect theyre well balanced people who have a life, and Brexit isnt the only thing in it.
Brexit is the only thing in the Conservative party right now. So if they have a life, they would be well-advised to explore it elsewhere.
Brexit seems to be the only thing in your life, which is sad.
However in the wider UK - cost of living, housing, uni fees, infrastructure, are much more important to voters
And in about 3 months time we'll have the annual NHS in crisis crisis
How extraordinary then that our government be devoting the vast majority of its attention and legislative activity towards Brexit. You must be utterly bemused by that.
Worth noting from that graph that the Conservatives are now overwhelmingly a Leavers party.
Yes. Whichever way they might have individually voted they've swung behind the expressed will of the people .... and are now aligned to fight for the country and make a success of Brexit.
Putting Country first. A great thing to see.
Rather, remainers are the votes the Tories have lost, compared to the majority they might have had.
You do have to wonder about the 10% of the electorate that voted Remain and have stuck with the Conservatives. How much more Brexiting are they going to put up with?
It cuts both ways if you say your aren't obsessed by Europe - whilst Ken Clarke, Soubry et al can stay, so can I.
And thank goodness they do. They're our Trogen Horse. When the shit really hits the fan as appears likely those two and a few others have the votes to put a stop to it.
No they won't, because they'll be cancelled out by Field, Skinner, and the other Labour Leavers.
The evidence suggests that Corbyn is quite happy with a hard Brexit. He is a life-long Eurosceptic, and EU membership would frustrate several of his policy aims.
I think Starmer is taking outside work because he knows he won't be in the job for long.
Worth noting from that graph that the Conservatives are now overwhelmingly a Leavers party.
Yes. Whichever way they might have individually voted they've swung behind the expressed will of the people .... and are now aligned to fight for the country and make a success of Brexit.
Putting Country first. A great thing to see.
Rather, remainers are the votes the Tories have lost, compared to the majority they might have had.
You do have to wonder about the 10% of the electorate that voted Remain and have stuck with the Conservatives. How much more Brexiting are they going to put up with?
They would be mainly people like John O or Carlotta Vance. On balance, they voted Remain, but are pretty relaxed about Brexit.
And much more worried about 'democracy' - try to do a fiddle on the popular vote and all bets are off - goodness knows where we'd end up.
An economy that might or might not be 4% smaller in 2030 I can live with.
SeanT has just been accused of being a female impersonator on the Today programme!
Didn't hear it, but I thought that was how she self-identified as S.K. Tremayne.
Didn't know that. The story was on men buying from male authors, women buying from female authors so authors being ambiguous. When S K Treayne being Sean Thomas was mentioned I nearly fell off my chair. He (or is that she) really is famous.
Worth noting from that graph that the Conservatives are now overwhelmingly a Leavers party.
Yes. Whichever way they might have individually voted they've swung behind the expressed will of the people .... and are now aligned to fight for the country and make a success of Brexit.
Putting Country first. A great thing to see.
Rather, remainers are the votes the Tories have lost, compared to the majority they might have had.
You do have to wonder about the 10% of the electorate that voted Remain and have stuck with the Conservatives. How much more Brexiting are they going to put up with?
I suspect theyre well balanced people who have a life, and Brexit isnt the only thing in it.
Brexit is the only thing in the Conservative party right now. So if they have a life, they would be well-advised to explore it elsewhere.
Brexit seems to be the only thing in your life, which is sad.
However in the wider UK - cost of living, housing, uni fees, infrastructure, are much more important to voters
And in about 3 months time we'll have the annual NHS in crisis crisis
And the Conservatives won't be heard on any of those subjects until they stop banging on about the EU. Meanwhile Labour fought an election campaign on such subjects and did far better than expected.
Of course they did because its in tune with the political mood, whereas here on PB it's non stop banging on aboiut Europe from people sulking that they werent in tune with the voters a year ago.
This site like the conservatives should have a 2 month ban on Brexit
In Germany we have potentially the largest corporate scandal for years breaking round VW BMW and Mercedes just before the elections - and not a peep about it from the so called internationalists of PB.
Worth noting from that graph that the Conservatives are now overwhelmingly a Leavers party.
Yes. Whichever way they might have individually voted they've swung behind the expressed will of the people .... and are now aligned to fight for the country and make a success of Brexit.
Putting Country first. A great thing to see.
Rather, remainers are the votes the Tories have lost, compared to the majority they might have had.
You do have to wonder about the 10% of the electorate that voted Remain and have stuck with the Conservatives. How much more Brexiting are they going to put up with?
I suspect theyre well balanced people who have a life, and Brexit isnt the only thing in it.
Brexit is the only thing in the Conservative party right now. So if they have a life, they would be well-advised to explore it elsewhere.
Brexit seems to be the only thing in your life, which is sad.
However in the wider UK - cost of living, housing, uni fees, infrastructure, are much more important to voters
And in about 3 months time we'll have the annual NHS in crisis crisis
And the Conservatives won't be heard on any of those subjects until they stop banging on about the EU. Meanwhile Labour fought an election campaign on such subjects and did far better than expected.
Of course they did because its in tune with the political mood, whereas here on PB it's non stop banging on aboiut Europe from people sulking that they werent in tune with the voters a year ago.
This site like the conservatives should have a 2 month ban on Brexit
In Germany we have potentially the largest corporate scandal for years breaking round VW BMW and Mercedes just before the elections - and not a peep about it from the so called internationalists of PB.
We need to get out more
I noticed that in Der Spiegel, but it doesn't make it to their English language site. That might be the explanation.
Dealing with Brexit and making sense of our situation in the world will dominate UK government and politics for at least a decade. By consuming all the political oxygen, we won't be dealing with our real problems.
Didn't know that. The story was on men buying from male authors, women buying from female authors so authors being ambiguous. When S K Treayne being Sean Thomas was mentioned I nearly fell off my chair. He (or is that she) really is famous.
It's based on a story in The Times, and they know who SeanT is
Sean Thomas, who lives in London, went to the top of the Sunday Times bestseller list as author of The Ice Twins but only after he used the pseudonym SK Tremayne.
Corbyn will be given a free pass to do as he wishes by the Labour membership. I do not think voters will be so tolerant. But that is not Corbyn's concern.
Yep the Tory imperialists who championed Brexit have a steep learning curve to contend with. But, thankfully, on a personal level they will be almost totally unaffected by their inability to understand how the modern world works.
Just had a chat with my eldest lad, who has just graduated from Uni. He was a Corbyn supporter, mainly due to what he thought Corbyn said about wiping out his student debt. He is no longer such a Corbyn fan.
Worth noting from that graph that the Conservatives are now overwhelmingly a Leavers party.
Yes. Whichever way they might have individually voted they've swung behind the expressed will of the people .... and are now aligned to fight for the country and make a success of Brexit.
Putting Country first. A great thing to see.
Rather, remainers are the votes the Tories have lost, compared to the majority they might have had.
You do have to wonder about the 10% of the electorate that voted Remain and have stuck with the Conservatives. How much more Brexiting are they going to put up with?
I suspect theyre well balanced people who have a life, and Brexit isnt the only thing in it.
Brexit is the only thing in the Conservative party right now. So if they have a life, they would be well-advised to explore it elsewhere.
Brexit seems to be the only thing in your life, which is sad.
However in the wider UK - cost of living, housing, uni fees, infrastructure, are much more important to voters
And in about 3 months time we'll have the annual NHS in crisis crisis
I am intrigued by the idea that Brexit is not related to the cost of living, housing, university fees, infrastructure and the NHS. From where I sit, the kind of Brexit we get will pretty much determine how we are to deal with all of the above, as well as a whole lot more.
Corbyn will be given a free pass to do as he wishes by the Labour membership. I do not think voters will be so tolerant. But that is not Corbyn's concern.
Let's see now, TMay on holiday on a walking holiday in Tuscany and Switzerland, Corbyn visiting 75 borderline Conservative /LibDems /SNP constituencies, giving speeches, pressing the flesh, kissing babies. Um! May gives speech at conference in October to rapturous applause and umpteen standing ovations, and everything is alright on Planet Tory. Meanwhile, in the real world...
Just had a chat with my eldest lad, who has just graduated from Uni. He was a Corbyn supporter, mainly due to what he thought Corbyn said about wiping out his student debt. He is no longer such a Corbyn fan.
I expect soon that McDonnell will have worked something out. The £100 billion cost is largely bogus.But I'm not expecting an election till 2022.
There are fleeting moments when I forget myself and start to feel ever so slightly sorry for the SNP. A mere two years ago, it was untouchable. It might have lost the referendum but it had won the war for hearts and minds.
Scotland had a majority SNP government at Holyrood, 56 Nationalist MPs at Westminster, and a Yes vote in a second referendum was only a matter of time.
In a brutally short space of time, the voters have confiscated its majority, devastated its Commons contingent, and torn its Indyref 2 plans to shreds.
F1: rumours circulating that, if the Hungary test goes well, Kubica will race for Renault at Spa.
Whilst I can very much see the possibility of Kubica getting Palmer's seat (the Briton's days are numbered, I fear), I'd be surprised at an intra-season change. Typically (Kvyat-Verstappen being the obvious counter-example) this has only happened with backmarker teams.
In this specific case, I imagine both Kubica and Renault would want to be as sure as possible and perhaps give him a run-in with time during practice rather than hurling him into the deep end.
I actually like Jeremy Corbyn - I could imagine having tea and a nice slice of bread and homemade jam and discussing politics with him. It might not be a meeting of minds but it would be interesting and stimulating. I couldn't imagine the same conversation with Theresa May in all honesty.
Corbyn has endured two years of vitriol - on here it's clear many dislike him with a healthy passion. Every interview he gives is a "car crash", every time he speaks it's wrong, he doesn't dress well or look the part etc, etc.
Yet his position is stronger than ever and it can only be because those who support him don't care about or ignore the negative publicity. Indeed, I'd argue the more hostile the attacks, the stronger Corbyn gets. He attracts those who think the "system" isn't "fair" and doesn't "work for me". Call them an underclass or ordinary working people or metropolitan lefty liberals or whatever you like but while their grandfathers might have doffed their caps in reverence as a Tory walked by, they don't.
I talked about re-alignment yesterday but it's far more and far less than that. Within the ranks of "leavers" and "remainers" do indeed lie a large group who don't care that much or recognise there's nothing they can do or want to do and want the whole thing done and dusted so we can move on.
That doesn't mean we should all be quiet and "trust Theresa" to get it right. I wouldn't trust my crown jewels to a psychopath with a rusty saw and I don't trust the economic future of this country to Theresa, Curly, Mo and Larry. Scrutiny is therefore paramount and the very fact that at the end of this process the only choices we seem to have is whatever gruel the Fantastic Four offer us or crashing out without agreement (which to be fair one or two individuals on here seem to salivate over) just goes to show what an undignified ill-thought out shambles we have concocted.
If "no deal" is better than a "bad deal" why don't we set our sights a bit higher and aim for a "good deal" ?
Just had a chat with my eldest lad, who has just graduated from Uni. He was a Corbyn supporter, mainly due to what he thought Corbyn said about wiping out his student debt. He is no longer such a Corbyn fan.
I expect soon that McDonnell will have worked something out. The £100 billion cost is largely bogus.But I'm not expecting an election till 2022.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'largely bogus'. It's true that quite a lot of it will be written off anyway so the net cost would at the moment be lower - though still tens of billions. On the other hand, by 2022, there'll be another five years of £9k+ fees on the book, and the loan book right now is already over £100bn. Add those extra fees on top and you could easily be looking at a *net* figure of £100bn by then. And it's arguable as to whether we should be looking at the net rather than the gross figure. After all, Labour would still have to account for writing off the money that would be written off under current rules too; it's just that this challenge faces the other parties as well.
Corbyn will be given a free pass to do as he wishes by the Labour membership. I do not think voters will be so tolerant. But that is not Corbyn's concern.
Before the GE, I made the point that expectations mattered, and that the deck was heavily stacked against the Conservatives. Corbyn vastly exceeded the low expectations that were placed against him. May stood no chance of meeting the stellar expectations some were placing in her way.
Corbyn lost the election. But in losing, he gained a heck of a lot of credibility and power amongst his own base and party. That, for a party leader, is not a bad way to lose. especially when your opposition, in winning, lost a lot of credibility and power.
I agree with Mike that Corbyn "has got away with it so far" but I disagree that he's "playing a dangerous game": he's not playing a game at all.
Corbyn is a campaigner. He states what he believes and tries to win recruits to those beliefs. Occasionally, he will trim official Labour policy to the immediate needs of the moment - getting something through the NEC, for example - but the process never runs from establishing what is popular to developing policy to fit with that. After his experience these last three months, he and his supporters will no doubt feel a reinforced justification in that approach.
So Brexit? He can win them round, or so he'll believe. That or it won't matter if he can't.
And the truth is that it doesn't matter to him because ultimately, winning doesn't particularly matter to him. Sure, it's important and it's much nicer than the alternative but when the chips are down, it's better to lose with the right policies than win with the wrong ones.
That's a good analysis. Ultimately he swung a lot of us to supporting him because we felt we'd taken the alternative ("It's winning that counts") to the extreme of not standing for anything important except not being the Tories.
I think it misreads him to think that he's dogmatically opposed to the EU - he sees advantages and drawbacks, and is mildly in favour - I'm not sure why people don't believe him on that when his track record is to be quite unafraid of saying what he thinks. His problem is that some senior figures in the party are (like me) dogmatically in favour, and (unlike me) really object to the ambiguity.
By coincidence, though, the ambiguity is probably the right electoral strategy at this stage, since it leaves the party free to take a view when negotiations are further along. I don't see any electoral advantage in digging into one position at this stage.
Meanwhile, I had an interview this morning with David TC Davies on Radio Wales on the chicken imports issue discussed on the last thread. Went well, I thought, helped by vox pops which were almost entirely in line with the Lords concerns. Davies initially argued that it was a non-issue being raised by Lords members who were mostly Remainers trying to throw up obstacles, but by the end of the programme said he agreed with me that we did need to maintain standards.
Worth noting from that graph that the Conservatives are now overwhelmingly a Leavers party.
Yes. Whichever way they might have individually voted they've swung behind the expressed will of the people .... and are now aligned to fight for the country and make a success of Brexit.
Putting Country first. A great thing to see.
Rather, remainers are the votes the Tories have lost, compared to the majority they might have had.
You do have to wonder about the 10% of the electorate that voted Remain and have stuck with the Conservatives. How much more Brexiting are they going to put up with?
Surely the bigger question is how many of the 66% of Labour voters who want to remain will continue to support leaving the CU and the SM? The evidence to date is that they don't seem to care enough to switch. Will that change?
It's asymmetric. The Conservatives are the party of Brexit. Labour is not the party of Remain. Many Remain voters turned away from the Conservatives because of Brexit, and then voted for Labour for different reasons. They are unlikely to abandon Labour unless it too positions itself as a party of Brexit. So far it has not done that.
Labour dissembling over its Brexit position will be delicious to follow.
In the unlikely event of Corbyn acceding before we Brexit, he would simply call a second referendum and then cynically comply with 'the will of people', just as May has done.
In that scenario, if we re-voted to Remain, given what the EU has said, would that constitute a mandate to join the euro and Schengen and all the other usual "standard" terms, like higher budget contributions sans rebate?
I think the political opposition to that in the UK would be the likes of what we've never seen before, and make Remoaning look like a picnic.
Let's see now, TMay on holiday on a walking holiday in Tuscany and Switzerland, Corbyn visiting 75 borderline Conservative /LibDems /SNP constituencies, giving speeches, pressing the flesh, kissing babies. Um! May gives speech at conference in October to rapturous applause and umpteen standing ovations, and everything is alright on Planet Tory. Meanwhile, in the real world...
Theresa comes up with all her best ideas on walking holidays.
I actually like Jeremy Corbyn - I could imagine having tea and a nice slice of bread and homemade jam and discussing politics with him. It might not be a meeting of minds but it would be interesting and stimulating. I couldn't imagine the same conversation with Theresa May in all honesty.
(Snip)
I get totally the opposite impression: if you are of a like mind then Corbyn would be an amiable fellow. I'm far from sure he's capable of listening to other viewpoints, hence the trouble he has within his own party and the way his politics have remained unchanged for decades.
Worth noting from that graph that the Conservatives are now overwhelmingly a Leavers party.
Yes. Whichever way they might have individually voted they've swung behind the expressed will of the people .... and are now aligned to fight for the country and make a success of Brexit.
Putting Country first. A great thing to see.
Rather, remainers are the votes the Tories have lost, compared to the majority they might have had.
You do have to wonder about the 10% of the electorate that voted Remain and have stuck with the Conservatives. How much more Brexiting are they going to put up with?
Surely the bigger question is how many of the 66% of Labour voters who want to remain will continue to support leaving the CU and the SM? The evidence to date is that they don't seem to care enough to switch. Will that change?
It's asymmetric. The Conservatives are the party of Brexit. Labour is not the party of Remain. Many Remain voters turned away from the Conservatives because of Brexit, and then voted for Labour for different reasons. They are unlikely to abandon Labour unless it too positions itself as a party of Brexit. So far it has not done that.
Labour dissembling over its Brexit position will be delicious to follow.
In the unlikely event of Corbyn acceding before we Brexit, he would simply call a second referendum and then cynically comply with 'the will of people', just as May has done.
In that scenario, if we re-voted to Remain, given what the EU has said, would that constitute a mandate to join the euro and Schengen and all the other usual "standard" terms, like higher budget contributions sans rebate?
I think the political opposition to that in the UK would be the likes of what we've never seen before, and make Remoaning look like a picnic.
Until we leave we dont have to rejoin, things would carry on as now.
F1: rumours circulating that, if the Hungary test goes well, Kubica will race for Renault at Spa.
Whilst I can very much see the possibility of Kubica getting Palmer's seat (the Briton's days are numbered, I fear), I'd be surprised at an intra-season change. Typically (Kvyat-Verstappen being the obvious counter-example) this has only happened with backmarker teams.
In this specific case, I imagine both Kubica and Renault would want to be as sure as possible and perhaps give him a run-in with time during practice rather than hurling him into the deep end.
I don't get all this fondness for Kubica. He was, at best, a good second-string driver, but not in the league of Alonso, Vettel or Hamilton. In six years of F1 he had one win, and he's been out of F1 for six years. He's also 32.
Renault would do much better to look for a young gun who they can give experience to.
Worth noting from that graph that the Conservatives are now overwhelmingly a Leavers party.
Yes. Whichever way they might have individually voted they've swung behind the expressed will of the people .... and are now aligned to fight for the country and make a success of Brexit.
Putting Country first. A great thing to see.
Rather, remainers are the votes the Tories have lost, compared to the majority they might have had.
You do have to wonder about the 10% of the electorate that voted Remain and have stuck with the Conservatives. How much more Brexiting are they going to put up with?
It cuts both ways if you say your aren't obsessed by Europe - whilst Ken Clarke, Soubry et al can stay, so can I.
And thank goodness they do. They're our Trogen Horse. When the shit really hits the fan as appears likely those two and a few others have the votes to put a stop to it.
No they won't, because they'll be cancelled out by Field, Skinner, and the other Labour Leavers.
The evidence suggests that Corbyn is quite happy with a hard Brexit. He is a life-long Eurosceptic, and EU membership would frustrate several of his policy aims.
I think Starmer is taking outside work because he knows he won't be in the job for long.
Starmer resigning on a pro-EU/pro-SM point of principle would throw an interesting cat among the Labour pigeons.
However, I don't think he wants the leadership. Like more than a few politicians who've come to it later in life after a successful career elsewhere, my guess is that he's finding the whole thing frustrating and looking for a route out. If he did resign, he could - if he was willing to play that game - become the king-over-the-water for Remainers; the internal-LotO. But I don't think he is interested in that kind of game-playing. Perhaps he'd have been happy as a senior minister under Miliband; I don't think he can ever really be happy under Corbyn and that he's realised that. Which is why he's looking for a way out.
If he was really interested in the Labour leadership, he wouldn't be taking outside interests that might conflict with his front-bench role. Indeed, he wouldn't be taking on outside roles at all: they look bad with the membership and the PLP.
The most surprising thing for me (a devout but defeated remainer) is that Brexit hardly featured in the GE. I am convinced that most voters, recognising that both the parties had similar lines on Brexit, based their vote on traditional drivers: the economy, NHS, education, housing, leadership competence, etc. And overall, neither party stood out because neither had all the answers.
Sadly, for remainers like me the Brexit vote is history and we lost. I do expect Brexit to play a part next time if, as I believe likely, there is an significant adverse impact on the economy. But if I am wrong about that impact (and I sincereley hope I am wrong) then voters will revert to the traditional drivers again.
Either way Labour are well-placed for the next election: either brexit is bad and the Tories are blamed ('cos the voting public will conveniently forget they voted for it), or brexit is fine but people will be even more tired of austerity than they are now.
If the Tories were smart they would go for the minimum Brexit they could get away with yet still be seen as leaving, then quitely soften austerity and provoke an old-fashioned boom in 2021-2. Trouble is, they have too many dumb idealogues to do that imo.
Next government very likely to be Labour. Who'd have thought that a year ago?!
Worth noting from that graph that the Conservatives are now overwhelmingly a Leavers party.
Yes. Whichever way they might have individually voted they've swung behind the expressed will of the people .... and are now aligned to fight for the country and make a success of Brexit.
Putting Country first. A great thing to see.
Rather, remainers are the votes the Tories have lost, compared to the majority they might have had.
You do have to wonder about the 10% of the electorate that voted Remain and have stuck with the Conservatives. How much more Brexiting are they going to put up with?
It cuts both ways if you say your aren't obsessed by Europe - whilst Ken Clarke, Soubry et al can stay, so can I.
And thank goodness they do. They're our Trogen Horse. When the shit really hits the fan as appears likely those two and a few others have the votes to put a stop to it.
Trojan, Roger.
But they're not really because the number of Tory rebels would be trivial whereas the number of Labour rebels would be more substantial (as in 1972, ironically). Besides, as Mike rightly says, Corbyn simply isn't going to lead Labour down to the wire on this. It's not important to him.
Mr. Jessop, I must disagree with you strongly on Kubica.
In a BMW Sauber he was one of three title contenders in, er, one year or another. He never had a top tier car but still drove very well. I would (in terms of his F1 performances of the past) absolutely put him in the uppermost rank of drivers.
Of course, he may not be the same driver. As well as his hand problems, he's been out of the sport for some time and is considerably older.
Worth noting from that graph that the Conservatives are now overwhelmingly a Leavers party.
Yes. Whichever way they might have individually voted they've swung behind the expressed will of the people .... and are now aligned to fight for the country and make a success of Brexit.
Putting Country first. A great thing to see.
Rather, remainers are the votes the Tories have lost, compared to the majority they might have had.
You do have to wonder about the 10% of the electorate that voted Remain and have stuck with the Conservatives. How much more Brexiting are they going to put up with?
It cuts both ways if you say your aren't obsessed by Europe - whilst Ken Clarke, Soubry et al can stay, so can I.
Aw others have the votes to put a stop to it.
No they won't, because they'll be cancelled out by Field, Skinner, and the other Labour Leavers.
The evidence suggests that Corbyn is quite happy with a hard Brexit. He is a life-long Eurosceptic, and EU membership would frustrate several of his policy aims.
I think Starmer is taking outside work because he knows he won't be in the job for long.
Starmer resigning on a pro-EU/pro-SM point of principle would throw an interesting cat among the Labour pigeons.
However, I don't think he wants the leadership. Like more than a few politicians who've come to it later in life after a successful career elsewhere, my guess is that he's finding the whole thing frustrating and looking for a route out. If he did resign, he could - if he was willing to play that game - become the king-over-the-water for Remainers; the internal-LotO. But I don't think he is interested in that kind of game-playing. Perhaps he'd have been happy as a senior minister under Miliband; I don't think he can ever really be happy under Corbyn and that he's realised that. Which is why he's looking for a way out.
If he was really interested in the Labour leadership, he wouldn't be taking outside interests that might conflict with his front-bench role. Indeed, he wouldn't be taking on outside roles at all: they look bad with the membership and the PLP.
According to The Guardian story on his role with Mishcon, they were paying him four and a half grand a month for six hours work before he entered the shadow cabinet. That's not the sort of earnings that go down well with grass roots working class Labour. I don't think he's got the stomach to hang around too long.
Completely off topic, but knowing how much good experience there is on this forum...
We are thinking of buying a smallish (2-3 bed) holiday cottage in Brittany/Normandy. The idea would be to use it 2-3 months of the year (mainly out of season) let it out enough to cover running costs, and consider it a useful long-term investment.
Is now a good time? Better to wait? Bad idea in total, given Brexit? I have heard prices have fallen with Brexit, given most of the marted for old cottages is British and UK buyers are getting cold-feet. But buying in a falling market is usually a good thing.
Worth noting from that graph that the Conservatives are now overwhelmingly a Leavers party.
Yes. Whichever way they might have individually voted they've swung behind the expressed will of the people .... and are now aligned to fight for the country and make a success of Brexit.
Putting Country first. A great thing to see.
Rather, remainers are the votes the Tories have lost, compared to the majority they might have had.
You do have to wonder about the 10% of the electorate that voted Remain and have stuck with the Conservatives. How much more Brexiting are they going to put up with?
I suspect theyre well balanced people who have a life, and Brexit isnt the only thing in it.
Brexit is the only thing in the Conservative party right now. So if they have a life, they would be well-advised to explore it elsewhere.
Brexit seems to be the only thing in your life, which is sad.
However in the wider UK - cost of living, housing, uni fees, infrastructure, are much more important to voters
And in about 3 months time we'll have the annual NHS in crisis crisis
I am intrigued by the idea that Brexit is not related to the cost of living, housing, university fees, infrastructure and the NHS. From where I sit, the kind of Brexit we get will pretty much determine how we are to deal with all of the above, as well as a whole lot more.
Of course Nissan got free owls to keep them in Sunderland after Brexit didn’t they. Or have they a cunning plan to replace Mercedes in British hearts and minds?
Let's see now, TMay on holiday on a walking holiday in Tuscany and Switzerland, Corbyn visiting 75 borderline Conservative /LibDems /SNP constituencies, giving speeches, pressing the flesh, kissing babies. Um! May gives speech at conference in October to rapturous applause and umpteen standing ovations, and everything is alright on Planet Tory. Meanwhile, in the real world...
Theresa comes up with all her best ideas on walking holidays.
Mr. Jessop, I must disagree with you strongly on Kubica.
In a BMW Sauber he was one of three title contenders in, er, one year or another. He never had a top tier car but still drove very well. I would (in terms of his F1 performances of the past) absolutely put him in the uppermost rank of drivers.
Of course, he may not be the same driver. As well as his hand problems, he's been out of the sport for some time and is considerably older.
Fairy nuff. Reasonable people can reasonably disagree. At best he was at the Raikonnen - Rosberg - Button level. With a good car he could have won a championship, but he was not quite at the same level as the very best.
I get totally the opposite impression: if you are of a like mind then Corbyn would be an amiable fellow. I'm far from sure he's capable of listening to other viewpoints, hence the trouble he has within his own party and the way his politics have remained unchanged for decades.
I suspect, like many other conversations, it would depend on how it was conducted and on which subjects. I would be happy to hear Corbyn's thoughts on housing, healthcare, transport and his take on some of the big London issues. I find aspects of what he says on Brexit intriguing and would like to discuss them further.
I wouldn't storm in and say "You're a Communist, Socialism is evil. Only Conservatives have the answers" because that probably wouldn't be conducive to a civilised discussion.
In Germany we have potentially the largest corporate scandal for years breaking round VW BMW and Mercedes just before the elections - and not a peep about it from the so called internationalists of PB.
We need to get out more
I noticed that in Der Spiegel, but it doesn't make it to their English language site. That might be the explanation.
But it was in the Guardian, Telegraph & FT over the weekend, surely you noticed.
Worth noting from that graph that the Conservatives are now overwhelmingly a Leavers party.
Yes. Whichever way they might have individually voted they've swung behind the expressed will of the people .... and are now aligned to fight for the country and make a success of Brexit.
Putting Country first. A great thing to see.
Rather, remainers are the votes the Tories have lost, compared to the majority they might have had.
You do have to wonder about the 10% of the electorate that voted Remain and have stuck with the Conservatives. How much more Brexiting are they going to put up with?
I suspect theyre well balanced people who have a life, and Brexit isnt the only thing in it.
Brexit is the only thing in the Conservative party right now. So if they have a life, they would be well-advised to explore it elsewhere.
Brexit seems to be the only thing in your life, which is sad.
However in the wider UK - cost of living, housing, uni fees, infrastructure, are much more important to voters
And in about 3 months time we'll have the annual NHS in crisis crisis
I am intrigued by the idea that Brexit is not related to the cost of living, housing, university fees, infrastructure and the NHS. From where I sit, the kind of Brexit we get will pretty much determine how we are to deal with all of the above, as well as a whole lot more.
Of course Nissan got free owls to keep them in Sunderland after Brexit didn’t they. Or have they a cunning plan to replace Mercedes in British hearts and minds?
Mercedes are increasingly used as minicabs -- maybe that is the cunning plan to remove their value as status symbols.
Mr. Jessop, I must disagree with you strongly on Kubica.
In a BMW Sauber he was one of three title contenders in, er, one year or another. He never had a top tier car but still drove very well. I would (in terms of his F1 performances of the past) absolutely put him in the uppermost rank of drivers.
Of course, he may not be the same driver. As well as his hand problems, he's been out of the sport for some time and is considerably older.
Fairy nuff. Reasonable people can reasonably disagree. At best he was at the Raikonnen - Rosberg - Button level. With a good car he could have won a championship, but he was not quite at the same level as the very best.
With any luck, Mr.D. and I will get the chance to see you proved wrong.
As for age, the greatest of all time had barely started in F1 when he was 40...
(edit - and Alonso, no mean judge, rates him very highly.)
I get totally the opposite impression: if you are of a like mind then Corbyn would be an amiable fellow. I'm far from sure he's capable of listening to other viewpoints, hence the trouble he has within his own party and the way his politics have remained unchanged for decades.
I suspect, like many other conversations, it would depend on how it was conducted and on which subjects. I would be happy to hear Corbyn's thoughts on housing, healthcare, transport and his take on some of the big London issues. I find aspects of what he says on Brexit intriguing and would like to discuss them further.
I wouldn't storm in and say "You're a Communist, Socialism is evil. Only Conservatives have the answers" because that probably wouldn't be conducive to a civilised discussion.
WRT your last paragraph: I wouldn't do that, and I guess neither would many Conservatives. However the key is in what you say: he'd be happy to let you hear what he thought: heck, most of us are happy to let others hear what we think. Politicians thrive on it.
The problem comes in the 'discuss them further'. That's where I fear Corbyn will end up having a tin ear. He's very set in his ways, and I'm not sure he's used to debating them. This is why so many of his party are set against him.
As it happens, I can imagine having a rather detailed conversation with Corbyn on the way municipal organisations helped build our country. But I can't imagine him having much time for my description of my parents' struggles in starting a business when I was a kid.
Mr. Jessop, I must disagree with you strongly on Kubica.
In a BMW Sauber he was one of three title contenders in, er, one year or another. He never had a top tier car but still drove very well. I would (in terms of his F1 performances of the past) absolutely put him in the uppermost rank of drivers.
Of course, he may not be the same driver. As well as his hand problems, he's been out of the sport for some time and is considerably older.
Fairy nuff. Reasonable people can reasonably disagree. At best he was at the Raikonnen - Rosberg - Button level. With a good car he could have won a championship, but he was not quite at the same level as the very best.
With any luck, Mr.D. and I will get the chance to see you proved wrong.
As for age, the greatest of all time had barely started in F1 when he was 40...
Well, I hope so. It'd be a great story for F1, at a time the sport needs good stories. However I;m also aware there will be many youngsters more deserving of a chance of a seat, and one of them might be the next Alonso, Hammy or Vettel. Or, God help them, Schuey.
Worth noting from that graph that the Conservatives are now overwhelmingly a Leavers party.
Yes. Whichever way they might have individually voted they've swung behind the expressed will of the people .... and are now aligned to fight for the country and make a success of Brexit.
Putting Country first. A great thing to see.
Rather, remainers are the votes the Tories have lost, compared to the majority they might have had.
You do have to wonder about the 10% of the electorate that voted Remain and have stuck with the Conservatives. How much more Brexiting are they going to put up with?
Surely the bigger question is how many of the 66% of Labour voters who want to remain will continue to support leaving the CU and the SM? The evidence to date is that they don't seem to care enough to switch. Will that change?
It's asymmetric. The Conservatives are the party of Brexit. Labour is not the party of Remain. Many Remain voters turned away from the Conservatives because of Brexit, and then voted for Labour for different reasons. They are unlikely to abandon Labour unless it too positions itself as a party of Brexit. So far it has not done that.
Labour dissembling over its Brexit position will be delicious to follow.
In the unlikely event of Corbyn acceding before we Brexit, he would simply call a second referendum and then cynically comply with 'the will of people', just as May has done.
In that scenario, if we re-voted to Remain, given what the EU has said, would that constitute a mandate to join the euro and Schengen and all the other usual "standard" terms, like higher budget contributions sans rebate?
I think the political opposition to that in the UK would be the likes of what we've never seen before, and make Remoaning look like a picnic.
Until we leave we dont have to rejoin, things would carry on as now.
That isn't what the chief EU negotiatior for the European Parliament is saying.
F1: rumours circulating that, if the Hungary test goes well, Kubica will race for Renault at Spa.
Whilst I can very much see the possibility of Kubica getting Palmer's seat (the Briton's days are numbered, I fear), I'd be surprised at an intra-season change. Typically (Kvyat-Verstappen being the obvious counter-example) this has only happened with backmarker teams.
In this specific case, I imagine both Kubica and Renault would want to be as sure as possible and perhaps give him a run-in with time during practice rather than hurling him into the deep end.
Query is Kubica too old to be FP1 tester? I can't recall the exact conditions for the FP1 standin/tester role
A sharp rise in personal loans could pose a danger to the UK economy, a Bank of England official has warned. Outstanding car loans, credit card balance transfers and personal loans have increased by 10% over the past year, the Bank's financial stability director Alex Brazier said.
Completely off topic, but knowing how much good experience there is on this forum...
We are thinking of buying a smallish (2-3 bed) holiday cottage in Brittany/Normandy. The idea would be to use it 2-3 months of the year (mainly out of season) let it out enough to cover running costs, and consider it a useful long-term investment.
Is now a good time? Better to wait? Bad idea in total, given Brexit? I have heard prices have fallen with Brexit, given most of the marted for old cottages is British and UK buyers are getting cold-feet. But buying in a falling market is usually a good thing.
Any thoughts/experiences?
Might be best to wait to see what kind of Brexit deal is done; but, if you can get a decent price now you could gamble on all sides seeing sense on issues like covering the costs of healthcare and residency rights. If they do, you can bet your bottom Euro prices will start to rise again.
Worth noting from that graph that the Conservatives are now overwhelmingly a Leavers party.
Yes. Whichever way they might have individually voted they've swung behind the expressed will of the people .... and are now aligned to fight for the country and make a success of Brexit.
Putting Country first. A great thing to see.
Rather, remainers are the votes the Tories have lost, compared to the majority they might have had.
You do have to wonder about the 10% of the electorate that voted Remain and have stuck with the Conservatives. How much more Brexiting are they going to put up with?
I suspect theyre well balanced people who have a life, and Brexit isnt the only thing in it.
Brexit is the only thing in the Conservative party right now. So if they have a life, they would be well-advised to explore it elsewhere.
Brexit seems to be the only thing in your life, which is sad.
However in the wider UK - cost of living, housing, uni fees, infrastructure, are much more important to voters
And in about 3 months time we'll have the annual NHS in crisis crisis
I am intrigued by the idea that Brexit is not related to the cost of living, housing, university fees, infrastructure and the NHS. From where I sit, the kind of Brexit we get will pretty much determine how we are to deal with all of the above, as well as a whole lot more.
Yes, 5% on the price of olives - whatever will we do.
No direct experience but make sure you fully understand the tax implications - I know several French property owners got a nasty shock when the French government came after expat owners - and taxes are reportedly high:
There are two factors working here. One is the likelihood that the incoherence of Labour's positions on virtually every issue will gradually undermine Corbyn's popularity with some voters; he was very lucky in the last election that there was so little scrutiny of the absurdities, but the media are now getting bored with bashing Theresa May, and are beginning to turn their attention to Labour.
The second factor is, obviously, Brexit. I don't subscribe to the view that the next election (assuming it takes place post March 2019) will be all about Brexit; Brexit will be a fait accompli, the electorate will be bored with it, there will probably be some kind of deal with the EU27 and economic armageddon* probably won't happen. Those rubbing their hands in glee (well represented in the comments upthread) at the prospect of it being a disaster for which the Tories will get massive blame should think back to 2010, when they were saying the same thing about the measures needed to pull back from the fiscal crisis.
Things move on. The next election will be fought on different gound, with (probably) a shiny new Conservative leader and quite possibly a new Labour leader. Who knows what will happen?
* Assuming we avoid a cliff-edge, which is likely but not certain, any economic damage from Brexit will be spread over a longish period and hard to disentangle from other effects.
I get totally the opposite impression: if you are of a like mind then Corbyn would be an amiable fellow. I'm far from sure he's capable of listening to other viewpoints, hence the trouble he has within his own party and the way his politics have remained unchanged for decades.
I suspect, like many other conversations, it would depend on how it was conducted and on which subjects. I would be happy to hear Corbyn's thoughts on housing, healthcare, transport and his take on some of the big London issues. I find aspects of what he says on Brexit intriguing and would like to discuss them further.
I wouldn't storm in and say "You're a Communist, Socialism is evil. Only Conservatives have the answers" because that probably wouldn't be conducive to a civilised discussion.
WRT your last paragraph: I wouldn't do that, and I guess neither would many Conservatives. However the key is in what you say: he'd be happy to let you hear what he thought: heck, most of us are happy to let others hear what we think. Politicians thrive on it.
The problem comes in the 'discuss them further'. That's where I fear Corbyn will end up having a tin ear. He's very set in his ways, and I'm not sure he's used to debating them. This is why so many of his party are set against him.
As it happens, I can imagine having a rather detailed conversation with Corbyn on the way municipal organisations helped build our country. But I can't imagine him having much time for my description of my parents' struggles in starting a business when I was a kid.
Think your imagination might be a bit array .He talks a lot about the self employed and their concerns surely many of his constituents are small business .My father was jobbing builder and I remember very well the Tories putting VAt on extensions but none on new housing.Hardly helpful at the time to gain work in a recession.
Mr. Jessop, I must disagree with you strongly on Kubica.
In a BMW Sauber he was one of three title contenders in, er, one year or another. He never had a top tier car but still drove very well. I would (in terms of his F1 performances of the past) absolutely put him in the uppermost rank of drivers.
Of course, he may not be the same driver. As well as his hand problems, he's been out of the sport for some time and is considerably older.
Fairy nuff. Reasonable people can reasonably disagree. At best he was at the Raikonnen - Rosberg - Button level. With a good car he could have won a championship, but he was not quite at the same level as the very best.
With any luck, Mr.D. and I will get the chance to see you proved wrong.
As for age, the greatest of all time had barely started in F1 when he was 40...
(edit - and Alonso, no mean judge, rates him very highly.)
Assuming you mean Fangio (Schumacher has more titles), the physical demands of F1 were not so extreme back then. Also, the reason why he had barely started in F1 when he was 40 (not quite true: he was champion for the first time aged 40, in only the second year of the World Drivers' Championship, after finishing a close second the year before), was the intervention of WWII. Going by his record in Argentina, he would surely have been racing Grands Prix in Europe in the early 1940s had not war intervened.
Worth noting from that graph that the Conservatives are now overwhelmingly a Leavers party.
Yes. Whichever way they might have individually voted they've swung behind the expressed will of the people .... and are now aligned to fight for the country and make a success of Brexit.
Putting Country first. A great thing to see.
Rather, remainers are the votes the Tories have lost, compared to the majority they might have had.
You with?
It I.
And it.
No they won't, because they'll be cancelled out by Field, Skinner, and the other Labour Leavers.
The evidence suggests that Corbyn is quite happy with a hard Brexit. He is a life-long Eurosceptic, and EU membership would frustrate several of his policy aims.
I think Starmer is taking outside work because he knows he won't be in the job for long.
Starmer resigning on a pro-EU/pro-SM point of principle would throw an interesting cat among the Labour pigeons.
However, I don't think he wants the leadership. Like more than a few politicians who've come to it later in life after a successful career elsewhere, my guess is that he's finding the whole thing frustrating and looking for a route out. If he did resign, he could - if he was willing to play that game - become the king-over-the-water for Remainers; the internal-LotO. But I don't think he is interested in that kind of game-playing. Perhaps he'd have been happy as a senior minister under Miliband; I don't think he can ever really be happy under Corbyn and that he's realised that. Which is why he's looking for a way out.
If he was really interested in the Labour leadership, he wouldn't be taking outside interests that might conflict with his front-bench role. Indeed, he wouldn't be taking on outside roles at all: they look bad with the membership and the PLP.
I know quite a few people in his CLP. There is a very active band of Momentum wreckers giving everyone a lot of grief over a lot of things and generally causing procedural trouble - as the far left likes to do. They are a minority, but a very vocal one. The reason Starmer got the nomination in the first place was because he was high profile and seen as ambitious. It was felt that as one of the biggest CLPs in the country and one of the safest Labour seats, Holborn and St Pancras should have an MP who was going somewhere - maybe all the way to the top.
No direct experience but make sure you fully understand the tax implications - I know several French property owners got a nasty shock when the French government came after expat owners - and taxes are reportedly high:
I would prefer a Labour Brexit to a Tory one. It would be one negotiated by Starmer and Jezza would not be so obsessed with immigration, or Free Trade deals that favour US Multinationals. It is not so much a softer Brexit, as a better one.
Oh dear
Mass immigration from the European Union has been used to "destroy" the conditions of British workers, Jeremy Corbyn said today.
Meanwhile
@Jake_Wilde: 1/10 The elephant in the room standing behind Labour's Brexit policy is that it's entirely driven by John McDonnell.
@Jake_Wilde: 5/10 Membership of the Single Market means relinquishing the state's control of both capital & labour, and thus interest rates & wages.
@Jake_Wilde: 6/10 The same for the Customs Union. It's vital for McDonnell's policies that he controls all the levers, including import/export tariffs.
Indeed. The Labour leadership want us out of the EU for much the same reasons that the Tories do - they want no interference with their madcap plans.
The Tories seem hell-bent on reducing rights and probably the Working Time Directive.
Labour want to nationalise everything.
The EU stops the more extreme policies of both parties which is why the extremists on BOTH sides want out
If anyone is interested in the EU position on Brexit this article probably sums it up the best.
Sabine Weyand retweets articles she thinks are relevant. She is the one at the coalface that makes this stuff work for the EU. She knows whereof she speaks
I get totally the opposite impression: if you are of a like mind then Corbyn would be an amiable fellow. I'm far from sure he's capable of listening to other viewpoints, hence the trouble he has within his own party and the way his politics have remained unchanged for decades.
I suspect, like many other conversations, it would depend on how it was conducted and on which subjects. I would be happy to hear Corbyn's thoughts on housing, healthcare, transport and his take on some of the big London issues. I find aspects of what he says on Brexit intriguing and would like to discuss them further.
I wouldn't storm in and say "You're a Communist, Socialism is evil. Only Conservatives have the answers" because that probably wouldn't be conducive to a civilised discussion.
WRT your last paragraph: I wouldn't do that, and I guess neither would many Conservatives. However the key is in what you say: he'd be happy to let you hear what he thought: heck, most of us are happy to let others hear what we think. Politicians thrive on it.
The problem comes in the 'discuss them further'. That's where I fear Corbyn will end up having a tin ear. He's very set in his ways, and I'm not sure he's used to debating them. This is why so many of his party are set against him.
As it happens, I can imagine having a rather detailed conversation with Corbyn on the way municipal organisations helped build our country. But I can't imagine him having much time for my description of my parents' struggles in starting a business when I was a kid.
Think your imagination might be a bit array .He talks a lot about the self employed and their concerns surely many of his constituents are small business .My father was jobbing builder and I remember very well the Tories putting VAt on extensions but none on new housing.Hardly helpful at the time to gain work in a recession.
My imagination is generally good, but even then I cannot imagine Corbyn being anything other than a disaster for business, large or small.
Care to elucidate on how he'd be good for the self-employed and small businesses?
Worth noting from that graph that the Conservatives are now overwhelmingly a Leavers party.
Yes. Whichever way they might have individually voted they've swung behind the expressed will of the people .... and are now aligned to fight for the country and make a success of Brexit.
Putting Country first. A great thing to see.
Rather, remainers are the votes the Tories have lost, compared to the majority they might have had.
You do have to wonder about the 10% of the electorate that voted Remain and have stuck with the Conservatives. How much more Brexiting are they going to put up with?
I suspect theyre well balanced people who have a life, and Brexit isnt the only thing in it.
Brexit is the only thing in the Conservative party right now. So if they have a life, they would be well-advised to explore it elsewhere.
Brexit seems to be the only thing in your life, which is sad.
However in the wider UK - cost of living, housing, uni fees, infrastructure, are much more important to voters
And in about 3 months time we'll have the annual NHS in crisis crisis
I am intrigued by the idea that Brexit is not related to the cost of living, housing, university fees, infrastructure and the NHS. From where I sit, the kind of Brexit we get will pretty much determine how we are to deal with all of the above, as well as a whole lot more.
Yes, 5% on the price of olives - whatever will we do.
Yep - that's the only price the fall in the value of the pound has affected :-D
No direct experience but make sure you fully understand the tax implications - I know several French property owners got a nasty shock when the French government came after expat owners - and taxes are reportedly high:
Ah ok it's about Tax Foncieres - equivalent to council tax from what I remember (we used to have a French house in the 90s) but tends to be less than UK costs for some reason. There is also a habitation tax from memory, although with our house in the Limousin, we could never get the local council to take any, as they couldn't believe anyone would live in it haha.
I actually like Jeremy Corbyn - I could imagine having tea and a nice slice of bread and homemade jam and discussing politics with him. It might not be a meeting of minds but it would be interesting and stimulating. I couldn't imagine the same conversation with Theresa May in all honesty.
(Snip)
I get totally the opposite impression: if you are of a like mind then Corbyn would be an amiable fellow. I'm far from sure he's capable of listening to other viewpoints, hence the trouble he has within his own party and the way his politics have remained unchanged for decades.
Corbyn is amiable to pretty much anyone - I know people on the Blairite loyalist wing of the party who get on very happily with him. His friendship with Liz Kendall is a good example.
Listening and changing your mind is a different quality, and one which is actually extremely rare in Westminster. One reason I like Oliver Letwin is that I've seen him do it, even in a combative context where it involved accepting that an opponent had a better argument. Obviously, most people adjust to changing times - the EU is a case in point, as Corbyn was firmly anti-EU in the past and is now agnostic/mildly pro. But being persuaded by direct argument? Not a lot of that happens.
Worth noting from that graph that the Conservatives are now overwhelmingly a Leavers party.
Yes. Whichever way they might have individually voted they've swung behind the expressed will of the people .... and are now aligned to fight for the country and make a success of Brexit.
Putting Country first. A great thing to see.
Rather, remainers are the votes the Tories have lost, compared to the majority they might have had.
You do have to wonder about the 10% of the electorate that voted Remain and have stuck with the Conservatives. How much more Brexiting are they going to put up with?
I suspect theyre well balanced people who have a life, and Brexit isnt the only thing in it.
Brexit is the only thing in the Conservative party right now. So if they have a life, they would be well-advised to explore it elsewhere.
Brexit seems to be the only thing in your life, which is sad.
However in the wider UK - cost of living, housing, uni fees, infrastructure, are much more important to voters
And in about 3 months time we'll have the annual NHS in crisis crisis
I am intrigued by the idea that Brexit is not related to the cost of living, housing, university fees, infrastructure and the NHS. From where I sit, the kind of Brexit we get will pretty much determine how we are to deal with all of the above, as well as a whole lot more.
Yes, 5% on the price of olives - whatever will we do.
Yep - that's the only price the fall in the value of the pound has affected :-D
There are two factors working here. One is the likelihood that the incoherence of Labour's positions on virtually every issue will gradually undermine Corbyn's popularity with some voters; he was very lucky in the last election that there was so little scrutiny of the absurdities, but the media are now getting bored with bashing Theresa May, and are beginning to turn their attention to Labour.
The second factor is, obviously, Brexit. I don't subscribe to the view that the next election (assuming it takes place post March 2019) will be all about Brexit; Brexit will be a fait accompli, the electorate will be bored with it, there will probably be some kind of deal with the EU27 and economic armageddon* probably won't happen. Those rubbing their hands in glee (well represented in the comments upthread) at the prospect of it being a disaster for which the Tories will get massive blame should think back to 2010, when they were saying the same thing about the measures needed to pull back from the fiscal crisis.
Things move on. The next election will be fought on different gound, with (probably) a shiny new Conservative leader and quite possibly a new Labour leader. Who knows what will happen?
* Assuming we avoid a cliff-edge, which is likely but not certain, any economic damage from Brexit will be spread over a longish period and hard to disentangle from other effects.
Brexit will be done to death by the time of the next election and neither major party will want to refight old battles. It will be the Economy, stupid, that will be the basis of the battle. The new Tory leader will need to find some positive messages, hope that Corbyn, McDonnell and Milne are still in place and that people are generally feeling OK about things. If all those things fall into place, then the Tories have every chance of coming out on top once more. Rumours of the party's death have been greatly exaggerated.
Worth noting from that graph that the Conservatives are now overwhelmingly a Leavers party.
Yes. Whichever way they might have individually voted they've swung behind the expressed will of the people .... and are now aligned to fight for the country and make a success of Brexit.
Putting Country first. A great thing to see.
Rather, remainers are the votes the Tories have lost, compared to the majority they might have had.
You do have to wonder about the 10% of the electorate that voted Remain and have stuck with the Conservatives. How much more Brexiting are they going to put up with?
It cuts both ways if you say your aren't obsessed by Europe - whilst Ken Clarke, Soubry et al can stay, so can I.
And thank goodness they do. They're our Trogen Horse. When the shit really hits the fan as appears likely those two and a few others have the votes to put a stop to it.
Pedant alert , Trojan Horse I believe , not Trogen.
Most LAB voters are democrats they know we voted to leave.
They also know LAB under Corbyn will be a softer BREXIT Workers rights will be protected and LAB will put trade ahead of immigration restrictions more than the Tories.
The 3rd party LD option is completely irrelevant for a long time yet
Most LAB voters are democrats they know we voted to leave.
They also know LAB under Corbyn will be a softer BREXIT Workers rights will be protected and LAB will put trade ahead of immigration restrictions more than the Tories.
The 3rd party LD option is completely irrelevant for a long time yet
THANK YOU Nick Clegg.
Another kick in the teeth from the party of the metropolitan elite.
Worth noting from that graph that the Conservatives are now overwhelmingly a Leavers party.
Yes. Whichever way they might have individually voted they've swung behind the expressed will of the people .... and are now aligned to fight for the country and make a success of Brexit.
Putting Country first. A great thing to see.
Rather, remainers are the votes the Tories have lost, compared to the majority they might have had.
You with?
It I.
And it.
No they won't, because they'll be cancelled out by Field, Skinner, and the other Labour Leavers.
The evidence suggests that Corbyn is quite happy with a hard Brexit. He is a life-long Eurosceptic, and EU membership would frustrate several of his policy aims.
I think Starmer is taking outside work because he knows he won't be in the job for long.
Starmer resigning on a pro-EU/pro-SM point of principle would throw an interesting cat among the Labour pigeons.
However, I don't think he wants the leadership. Like more than a few politicians who've come to it later in life after a successful career elsewhere, my guess is that he's finding the whole thing frustrating and looking for a route out. If he did resign, he could - if he was willing to play that game - become the king-over-the-water for Remainers; the internal-LotO. But I don't think he is interested in that kind of game-playing. Perhaps he'd have been happy as a senior minister under Miliband; I don't think he can ever really be happy under Corbyn and that he's realised that. Which is why he's looking for a way out.
If he was really interested in the Labour leadership, he wouldn't be taking outside interests that might conflict with his front-bench role. Indeed, he wouldn't be taking on outside roles at all: they look bad with the membership and the PLP.
I know quite a few people in his CLP. There is a very active band of Momentum wreckers giving everyone a lot of grief over a lot of things and generally causing procedural trouble - as the far left likes to do. They are a minority, but a very vocal one. The reason Starmer got the nomination in the first place was because he was high profile and seen as ambitious. It was felt that as one of the biggest CLPs in the country and one of the safest Labour seats, Holborn and St Pancras should have an MP who was going somewhere - maybe all the way to the top.
Most LAB voters are democrats they know we voted to leave.
They also know LAB under Corbyn will be a softer BREXIT Workers rights will be protected and LAB will put trade ahead of immigration restrictions more than the Tories.
The 3rd party LD option is completely irrelevant for a long time yet
THANK YOU Nick Clegg.
Another kick in the teeth from the party of the metropolitan elite.
There are fleeting moments when I forget myself and start to feel ever so slightly sorry for the SNP. A mere two years ago, it was untouchable. It might have lost the referendum but it had won the war for hearts and minds.
Scotland had a majority SNP government at Holyrood, 56 Nationalist MPs at Westminster, and a Yes vote in a second referendum was only a matter of time.
In a brutally short space of time, the voters have confiscated its majority, devastated its Commons contingent, and torn its Indyref 2 plans to shreds.
So they will get some Scottish weather , my heart bleeds. PS: I see the Standard is unable to tell the difference between the UK and England, what journalism.
There are fleeting moments when I forget myself and start to feel ever so slightly sorry for the SNP. A mere two years ago, it was untouchable. It might have lost the referendum but it had won the war for hearts and minds.
Scotland had a majority SNP government at Holyrood, 56 Nationalist MPs at Westminster, and a Yes vote in a second referendum was only a matter of time.
In a brutally short space of time, the voters have confiscated its majority, devastated its Commons contingent, and torn its Indyref 2 plans to shreds.
LOL, CCHQ down to quoting the big jessie blubber, how desperate can you get.
Playing the man rather than the ball again Malcolm. Thing is, the points are all accurate, aren't they? The SNP have gone backwards at Holyrood and Westminster and IndyRef2 is off the table.
Comments
I'm not sure Corbyn will be hard-pressed. I can already see the devastating Peston interview now.
"With vegetable prices going up, will you be keeping your allotment?"
However in the wider UK - cost of living, housing, uni fees, infrastructure, are much more important to voters
And in about 3 months time we'll have the annual NHS in crisis crisis
Could we have a halfway house where they engage in normal debate but end all their posts with *and this will be harder because of the disaster of Brexit.?
You must be utterly bemused by that.
The evidence suggests that Corbyn is quite happy with a hard Brexit. He is a life-long Eurosceptic, and EU membership would frustrate several of his policy aims.
I think Starmer is taking outside work because he knows he won't be in the job for long.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jul/25/donald-trump-speech-boy-scouts-jamboree
An economy that might or might not be 4% smaller in 2030 I can live with.
Schneiderman, among other pursuits, is investigating Trump's defunct modeling agency for sex trafficking.
http://www.oregonlive.com/today/index.ssf/2017/07/donald_trump_might_fire_robert.html
This site like the conservatives should have a 2 month ban on Brexit
In Germany we have potentially the largest corporate scandal for years breaking round VW BMW and Mercedes just before the elections - and not a peep about it from the so called internationalists of PB.
We need to get out more
Sorry, guys. On that note, I am off.
Sean Thomas, who lives in London, went to the top of the Sunday Times bestseller list as author of The Ice Twins but only after he used the pseudonym SK Tremayne.
try watching Love Island you;ll get an education
Now LAB is leading in the polls (2% up in today’s YouGov)
Confused me - if the 'latest YouGov' is this:
https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/889572029921406977
Then while Labour are indeed 2% ahead of the Tories they are down 2% vs the previous poll and their lead has fallen by 3%......
Or is there a more recent poll?
https://twitter.com/mattchorley/status/889763608678330368
Scotland had a majority SNP government at Holyrood, 56 Nationalist MPs at Westminster, and a Yes vote in a second referendum was only a matter of time.
In a brutally short space of time, the voters have confiscated its majority, devastated its Commons contingent, and torn its Indyref 2 plans to shreds.
https://stephendaisley.com/2017/07/24/jeremy-to-the-left-ruth-to-the-right-i-almost-feel-sorry-for-the-squeezed-snp/
Whilst I can very much see the possibility of Kubica getting Palmer's seat (the Briton's days are numbered, I fear), I'd be surprised at an intra-season change. Typically (Kvyat-Verstappen being the obvious counter-example) this has only happened with backmarker teams.
In this specific case, I imagine both Kubica and Renault would want to be as sure as possible and perhaps give him a run-in with time during practice rather than hurling him into the deep end.
I actually like Jeremy Corbyn - I could imagine having tea and a nice slice of bread and homemade jam and discussing politics with him. It might not be a meeting of minds but it would be interesting and stimulating. I couldn't imagine the same conversation with Theresa May in all honesty.
Corbyn has endured two years of vitriol - on here it's clear many dislike him with a healthy passion. Every interview he gives is a "car crash", every time he speaks it's wrong, he doesn't dress well or look the part etc, etc.
Yet his position is stronger than ever and it can only be because those who support him don't care about or ignore the negative publicity. Indeed, I'd argue the more hostile the attacks, the stronger Corbyn gets. He attracts those who think the "system" isn't "fair" and doesn't "work for me". Call them an underclass or ordinary working people or metropolitan lefty liberals or whatever you like but while their grandfathers might have doffed their caps in reverence as a Tory walked by, they don't.
I talked about re-alignment yesterday but it's far more and far less than that. Within the ranks of "leavers" and "remainers" do indeed lie a large group who don't care that much or recognise there's nothing they can do or want to do and want the whole thing done and dusted so we can move on.
That doesn't mean we should all be quiet and "trust Theresa" to get it right. I wouldn't trust my crown jewels to a psychopath with a rusty saw and I don't trust the economic future of this country to Theresa, Curly, Mo and Larry. Scrutiny is therefore paramount and the very fact that at the end of this process the only choices we seem to have is whatever gruel the Fantastic Four offer us or crashing out without agreement (which to be fair one or two individuals on here seem to salivate over) just goes to show what an undignified ill-thought out shambles we have concocted.
If "no deal" is better than a "bad deal" why don't we set our sights a bit higher and aim for a "good deal" ?
Corbyn lost the election. But in losing, he gained a heck of a lot of credibility and power amongst his own base and party. That, for a party leader, is not a bad way to lose. especially when your opposition, in winning, lost a lot of credibility and power.
I think it misreads him to think that he's dogmatically opposed to the EU - he sees advantages and drawbacks, and is mildly in favour - I'm not sure why people don't believe him on that when his track record is to be quite unafraid of saying what he thinks. His problem is that some senior figures in the party are (like me) dogmatically in favour, and (unlike me) really object to the ambiguity.
By coincidence, though, the ambiguity is probably the right electoral strategy at this stage, since it leaves the party free to take a view when negotiations are further along. I don't see any electoral advantage in digging into one position at this stage.
Meanwhile, I had an interview this morning with David TC Davies on Radio Wales on the chicken imports issue discussed on the last thread. Went well, I thought, helped by vox pops which were almost entirely in line with the Lords concerns. Davies initially argued that it was a non-issue being raised by Lords members who were mostly Remainers trying to throw up obstacles, but by the end of the programme said he agreed with me that we did need to maintain standards.
I think the political opposition to that in the UK would be the likes of what we've never seen before, and make Remoaning look like a picnic.
Renault would do much better to look for a young gun who they can give experience to.
However, I don't think he wants the leadership. Like more than a few politicians who've come to it later in life after a successful career elsewhere, my guess is that he's finding the whole thing frustrating and looking for a route out. If he did resign, he could - if he was willing to play that game - become the king-over-the-water for Remainers; the internal-LotO. But I don't think he is interested in that kind of game-playing. Perhaps he'd have been happy as a senior minister under Miliband; I don't think he can ever really be happy under Corbyn and that he's realised that. Which is why he's looking for a way out.
If he was really interested in the Labour leadership, he wouldn't be taking outside interests that might conflict with his front-bench role. Indeed, he wouldn't be taking on outside roles at all: they look bad with the membership and the PLP.
Sadly, for remainers like me the Brexit vote is history and we lost. I do expect Brexit to play a part next time if, as I believe likely, there is an significant adverse impact on the economy. But if I am wrong about that impact (and I sincereley hope I am wrong) then voters will revert to the traditional drivers again.
Either way Labour are well-placed for the next election: either brexit is bad and the Tories are blamed ('cos the voting public will conveniently forget they voted for it), or brexit is fine but people will be even more tired of austerity than they are now.
If the Tories were smart they would go for the minimum Brexit they could get away with yet still be seen as leaving, then quitely soften austerity and provoke an old-fashioned boom in 2021-2. Trouble is, they have too many dumb idealogues to do that imo.
Next government very likely to be Labour. Who'd have thought that a year ago?!
But they're not really because the number of Tory rebels would be trivial whereas the number of Labour rebels would be more substantial (as in 1972, ironically). Besides, as Mike rightly says, Corbyn simply isn't going to lead Labour down to the wire on this. It's not important to him.
In a BMW Sauber he was one of three title contenders in, er, one year or another. He never had a top tier car but still drove very well. I would (in terms of his F1 performances of the past) absolutely put him in the uppermost rank of drivers.
Of course, he may not be the same driver. As well as his hand problems, he's been out of the sport for some time and is considerably older.
We are thinking of buying a smallish (2-3 bed) holiday cottage in Brittany/Normandy. The idea would be to use it 2-3 months of the year (mainly out of season) let it out enough to cover running costs, and consider it a useful long-term investment.
Is now a good time? Better to wait? Bad idea in total, given Brexit? I have heard prices have fallen with Brexit, given most of the marted for old cottages is British and UK buyers are getting cold-feet. But buying in a falling market is usually a good thing.
Any thoughts/experiences?
I wouldn't storm in and say "You're a Communist, Socialism is evil. Only Conservatives have the answers" because that probably wouldn't be conducive to a civilised discussion.
As for age, the greatest of all time had barely started in F1 when he was 40...
(edit - and Alonso, no mean judge, rates him very highly.)
The problem comes in the 'discuss them further'. That's where I fear Corbyn will end up having a tin ear. He's very set in his ways, and I'm not sure he's used to debating them. This is why so many of his party are set against him.
As it happens, I can imagine having a rather detailed conversation with Corbyn on the way municipal organisations helped build our country. But I can't imagine him having much time for my description of my parents' struggles in starting a business when I was a kid.
Outstanding car loans, credit card balance transfers and personal loans have increased by 10% over the past year, the Bank's financial stability director Alex Brazier said.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40712573
A bit bemusing, could he not stick his head round the door of the bloke who sets the interest rates?
Good bloke.
https://www.thelocal.fr/20161013/homeowners-in-france-hit-by-jump-in-property-taxes
The second factor is, obviously, Brexit. I don't subscribe to the view that the next election (assuming it takes place post March 2019) will be all about Brexit; Brexit will be a fait accompli, the electorate will be bored with it, there will probably be some kind of deal with the EU27 and economic armageddon* probably won't happen. Those rubbing their hands in glee (well represented in the comments upthread) at the prospect of it being a disaster for which the Tories will get massive blame should think back to 2010, when they were saying the same thing about the measures needed to pull back from the fiscal crisis.
Things move on. The next election will be fought on different gound, with (probably) a shiny new Conservative leader and quite possibly a new Labour leader. Who knows what will happen?
* Assuming we avoid a cliff-edge, which is likely but not certain, any economic damage from Brexit will be spread over a longish period and hard to disentangle from other effects.
https://twitter.com/CashQuestions/status/889778084970463232
The Tories seem hell-bent on reducing rights and probably the Working Time Directive.
Labour want to nationalise everything.
The EU stops the more extreme policies of both parties which is why the extremists on BOTH sides want out
Sabine Weyand retweets articles she thinks are relevant. She is the one at the coalface that makes this stuff work for the EU. She knows whereof she speaks
https://twitter.com/WeyandSabine/status/889561390578638850
Care to elucidate on how he'd be good for the self-employed and small businesses?
But thanks for the pointer.
Listening and changing your mind is a different quality, and one which is actually extremely rare in Westminster. One reason I like Oliver Letwin is that I've seen him do it, even in a combative context where it involved accepting that an opponent had a better argument. Obviously, most people adjust to changing times - the EU is a case in point, as Corbyn was firmly anti-EU in the past and is now agnostic/mildly pro. But being persuaded by direct argument? Not a lot of that happens.
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/jul/25/guardian-media-group-cuts-losses-by-more-than-a-third-to-45m
Most LAB voters are democrats they know we voted to leave.
They also know LAB under Corbyn will be a softer BREXIT Workers rights will be protected and LAB will put trade ahead of immigration restrictions more than the Tories.
The 3rd party LD option is completely irrelevant for a long time yet
THANK YOU Nick Clegg.
https://twitter.com/standardnews/status/889783238742478848
Time to get a proper Brexiteer in to enact Brexit - Let's send for Jezza!
I'll never forgive Corbyn who, for whatever reason, did not put his back into "Remain".
He has no Jezz Factor
Gordon Brown with added dulness
PS: I see the Standard is unable to tell the difference between the UK and England, what journalism.