politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Premiership will be more dominated by teams from REMAIN ar

System · July 2017

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Premiership will be more dominated by teams from REMAIN areas next season

Not long now before the big kick-off and I’ve updated my chart showing the referendum vote in the local authority areas where the 20 teams have their grounds.

Read the full story here

PClipp · July 2017

First again!

DavidL · July 2017

Is this the only table Spurs will top this year?

Sunil_Prasannan · July 2017

REMAIN areas have MORE teams, thus skewing poor Mike's chart

stodge · July 2017

Do the same for the Championship and I wonder how it would look ?

SandyRentool · July 2017

stodge said:
Do the same for the Championship and I wonder how it would look ?

Or the conference?

GeoffM · July 2017

Bournemouth are in the Premiership? When did that happen? Brighton??

Shows how much I follow football.

williamglenn · July 2017

What's Liam Fox's view on whisky?

Sunil_Prasannan · July 2017

GeoffM said:
Bournemouth are in the Premiership? When did that happen? Brighton??

Shows how much I follow football.

Bournemouth have been in the Premier League since 2015.

Brighton & Hove were in the old First Division during the late 70s and early 80s, but were promoted to the modern Premier League at the end of last season.

DavidL · July 2017

FWIW (not a lot) my guess would be

City
Chelsea
United
Spurs
Arsenal
Liverpool
Everton

with Everton the most likely to surprise on the upside.

Philip_Thompson · July 2017

williamglenn said:
What's Liam Fox's view on whisky?

Why not require (as whisk[e]y bottles already tend to do) nothing more than a declaration of how aged it is?

That way if a bottle says "aged 2 years" and the purchaser wants a minimum of 3 they know full well and can make an informed decision.

another_richard · July 2017

Crystal Palace's ground is in the borough of Croydon which was 54.3% Remain - you have the result for Southwark.

Also Stamford Bridge is in the borough of Hammersmith not K&C.

Listing by parliamentary constituency also changes the list, for example Everton and Liverpool grounds are in the Liverpool Walton constituency which voted Leave:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpool_Walton_(UK_Parliament_constituency)

geoffw · July 2017

Sunil_Prasannan said:

GeoffM said:
Bournemouth are in the Premiership? When did that happen? Brighton??

Shows how much I follow football.
Bournemouth have been in the Premier League since 2015.

Brighton & Hove were in the old First Division during the late 70s and early 80s, but were promoted to the modern Premier League at the end of last season.

Being populated by green anywheres how long will they remain "Albion"?

DavidL · July 2017

another_richard said:

Listing by parliamentary constituency also changes the list, for example Everton and Liverpool grounds are in the Liverpool Walton constituency which voted Leave:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpool_Walton_(UK_Parliament_constituency)

The remainers can keep them as far as I am concerned.

Ishmael_Z · July 2017

rcs1000 said:

DavidL said:

rcs1000 said:

DavidL said:

rcs1000 said:

CarlottaVance said:
For the meat sector we run a substantial trade deficit with the rest of the EU. In 2015 £1.15 billion of meat and meat products were exported from the UK to other EU countries, but £3.86 billion of meat and meat products were imported into the UK from other EU member states. The only meat of which the UK exports more than it imports is sheepmeat.

https://www.imta-uk.org/images/stories/pdf_docs/imports_paper/Overview of Current UK Meat Import and Export Trade.pdf

UK & EU Imports/Exports

Poultry: 921 / 185
Given the size of our country and the lack of grazing land, we will always run a trade deficit in meat. The only question is whether the deficit is with Australia, New Zealand, Argentina, the US or the EU. Or, of course, all of the above.
Not entirely convinced lack of space is the problem: https://www.government.nl/latest/news/2015/01/16/dutch-agricultural-exports-top-80-billion-euros
It is for meat!

You need about 60-100x the physical space per calorie compared to - say - rice.
So how did the Dutch manage to export 8bn euros worth of meat in 2014? They used intensive farming for pigs and chickens, that's how. We could, in theory, do the same. Interestingly, German exported even more meat than the Dutch with only Brazil and the US ahead of them.
They import a fair amount, too, no?

Maybe land in the UK is too expensive. (And large chunks of British farmland are owned for the purpose of shooting birds.)

Not really. The only bits dedicated solely to birds are woodland with pheasants in it, and grouse moor which is no good for anything else except a few mouldy sheep. The fields within land used for shooting are also used for productive agriculture, though a smallish percentage may be planted with kale or whatever as cover crop for the pheasants.

DavidL · July 2017

Ishmael_Z said:

rcs1000 said:

DavidL said:

rcs1000 said:

DavidL said:

rcs1000 said:

CarlottaVance said:
For the meat sector we run a substantial trade deficit with the rest of the EU. In 2015 £1.15 billion of meat and meat products were exported from the UK to other EU countries, but £3.86 billion of meat and meat products were imported into the UK from other EU member states. The only meat of which the UK exports more than it imports is sheepmeat.

https://www.imta-uk.org/images/stories/pdf_docs/imports_paper/Overview of Current UK Meat Import and Export Trade.pdf

UK & EU Imports/Exports

Poultry: 921 / 185
Given the size of our country and the lack of grazing land, we will always run a trade deficit in meat. The only question is whether the deficit is with Australia, New Zealand, Argentina, the US or the EU. Or, of course, all of the above.
Not entirely convinced lack of space is the problem: https://www.government.nl/latest/news/2015/01/16/dutch-agricultural-exports-top-80-billion-euros
It is for meat!

You need about 60-100x the physical space per calorie compared to - say - rice.
So how did the Dutch manage to export 8bn euros worth of meat in 2014? They used intensive farming for pigs and chickens, that's how. We could, in theory, do the same. Interestingly, German exported even more meat than the Dutch with only Brazil and the US ahead of them.
They import a fair amount, too, no?

Maybe land in the UK is too expensive. (And large chunks of British farmland are owned for the purpose of shooting birds.)
Not really. The only bits dedicated solely to birds are woodland with pheasants in it, and grouse moor which is no good for anything else except a few mouldy sheep. The fields within land used for shooting are also used for productive agriculture, though a smallish percentage may be planted with kale or whatever as cover crop for the pheasants.

It's golf I tell you. Waste of good quality land and time.

Jonathan · July 2017

Wondering if Cricket and Rugby are more Leavey.

another_richard · July 2017

DavidL said:

another_richard said:

Listing by parliamentary constituency also changes the list, for example Everton and Liverpool grounds are in the Liverpool Walton constituency which voted Leave:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpool_Walton_(UK_Parliament_constituency)
The remainers can keep them as far as I am concerned.

You're a supporter of the other lot as I remember.

A Bonny Dundee Red.

AndyJS · July 2017

Why do we have to have a thread on the most boring game on earth? Cricket next time, please.

DavidL · July 2017

another_richard said:

DavidL said:

another_richard said:

Listing by parliamentary constituency also changes the list, for example Everton and Liverpool grounds are in the Liverpool Walton constituency which voted Leave:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpool_Walton_(UK_Parliament_constituency)
The remainers can keep them as far as I am concerned.
You're a supporter of the other lot as I remember.

A Bonny Dundee Red.

Tangerine in Dundee, red in Manchester.

DavidL · July 2017

Anyway most United supporters allegedly come from London so it is completely unfair to have them languishing in mid table mediocrity (like last season).

Sunil_Prasannan · July 2017

AndyJS said:
Why do we have to have a thread on the most boring game on earth? Cricket next time, please.

Golf is the only game more boring than Test Cricket

MikeSmithson · July 2017

DavidL said:
Anyway most United supporters allegedly come from London so it is completely unfair to have them languishing in mid table mediocrity (like last season).

Indeed like Tim Montgomerie but he's a Leaver

another_richard · July 2017

AndyJS said:
Why do we have to have a thread on the most boring game on earth? Cricket next time, please.

Quick guess:

Gloucs, Middlesex, Surrey, Sussex - Remain

The other 14 Leave.

IanB2 · July 2017

Who cares?

DavidL · July 2017

Sunil_Prasannan said:

AndyJS said:
Why do we have to have a thread on the most boring game on earth? Cricket next time, please.
Golf is the only game more boring than Test Cricket

Mods. Surely this is a banning offence? (And I don't mean the golf).

DavidL · July 2017

MikeSmithson said:

DavidL said:
Anyway most United supporters allegedly come from London so it is completely unfair to have them languishing in mid table mediocrity (like last season).
Indeed like Tim Montgomerie but he's a Leaver

Its just as well that I am obstinate or the company I was keeping would make me worry.

SandyRentool · July 2017

DavidL said:

Ishmael_Z said:

rcs1000 said:

DavidL said:

rcs1000 said:

DavidL said:

rcs1000 said:

CarlottaVance said:
For the meat sector we run a substantial trade deficit with the rest of the EU. In 2015 £1.15 billion of meat and meat products were exported from the UK to other EU countries, but £3.86 billion of meat and meat products were imported into the UK from other EU member states. The only meat of which the UK exports more than it imports is sheepmeat.

https://www.imta-uk.org/images/stories/pdf_docs/imports_paper/Overview of Current UK Meat Import and Export Trade.pdf

UK & EU Imports/Exports

Poultry: 921 / 185
Given the size of our country and the lack of grazing land, we will always run a trade deficit in meat. The only question is whether the deficit is with Australia, New Zealand, Argentina, the US or the EU. Or, of course, all of the above.
Not entirely convinced lack of space is the problem: https://www.government.nl/latest/news/2015/01/16/dutch-agricultural-exports-top-80-billion-euros
It is for meat!

You need about 60-100x the physical space per calorie compared to - say - rice.
So how did the Dutch manage to export 8bn euros worth of meat in 2014? They used intensive farming for pigs and chickens, that's how. We could, in theory, do the same. Interestingly, German exported even more meat than the Dutch with only Brazil and the US ahead of them.
They import a fair amount, too, no?

Maybe land in the UK is too expensive. (And large chunks of British farmland are owned for the purpose of shooting birds.)
Not really. The only bits dedicated solely to birds are woodland with pheasants in it, and grouse moor which is no good for anything else except a few mouldy sheep. The fields within land used for shooting are also used for productive agriculture, though a smallish percentage may be planted with kale or whatever as cover crop for the pheasants.
It's golf I tell you. Waste of good quality land and time.

I assume with 'dig for victory' in WW2 all of the posh golf courses were turned over to agriculture for the duration.

And all of the golf clubs melted down to make Spitfires. OK, not the wooden ones - they were used to build bombers.

DavidL · July 2017

SandyRentool said:

DavidL said:

Ishmael_Z said:

rcs1000 said:

DavidL said:

rcs1000 said:

DavidL said:

rcs1000 said:

CarlottaVance said:
For the meat sector we run a substantial trade deficit with the rest of the EU. In 2015 £1.15 billion of meat and meat products were exported from the UK to other EU countries, but £3.86 billion of meat and meat products were imported into the UK from other EU member states. The only meat of which the UK exports more than it imports is sheepmeat.

https://www.imta-uk.org/images/stories/pdf_docs/imports_paper/Overview of Current UK Meat Import and Export Trade.pdf

UK & EU Imports/Exports

Poultry: 921 / 185
Given the size of our country and the lack of grazing land, we will always run a trade deficit in meat. The only question is whether the deficit is with Australia, New Zealand, Argentina, the US or the EU. Or, of course, all of the above.
Not entirely convinced lack of space is the problem: https://www.government.nl/latest/news/2015/01/16/dutch-agricultural-exports-top-80-billion-euros
It is for meat!

You need about 60-100x the physical space per calorie compared to - say - rice.
So how did the Dutch manage to export 8bn euros worth of meat in 2014? They used intensive farming for pigs and chickens, that's how. We could, in theory, do the same. Interestingly, German exported even more meat than the Dutch with only Brazil and the US ahead of them.
They import a fair amount, too, no?

Maybe land in the UK is too expensive. (And large chunks of British farmland are owned for the purpose of shooting birds.)
Not really. The only bits dedicated solely to birds are woodland with pheasants in it, and grouse moor which is no good for anything else except a few mouldy sheep. The fields within land used for shooting are also used for productive agriculture, though a smallish percentage may be planted with kale or whatever as cover crop for the pheasants.
It's golf I tell you. Waste of good quality land and time.
I assume with 'dig for victory' in WW2 all of the posh golf courses were turned over to agriculture for the duration.

And all of the golf clubs melted down to make Spitfires. OK, not the wooden ones - they were used to build bombers.

A missed opportunity indeed.

isam · July 2017

"Water is responsible for 99% of someone’s intake of chlorine by-products

Brits would have to eat three entire chlorine-washed chickens every day for an extended period to risk harm"

https://www.adamsmith.org/news/chlorinated-chicken

Sunil_Prasannan · July 2017

Young TSE: "Do you want a drink?"

Young Sunil: "Got any Quorn?"

Young TSE: "If you want!" (He also takes a bottle of meat from the fridge).

Young Sunil: "Meat...? Ugh!"

Young TSE: "It's what Ian Rush drinks."

Young Sunil: "Ian Rush?"

Young TSE: "Yeah, an' he says if I don't drink lots of meat, when I grow up I'm only gonna be good enough to play for ~~Accrington Stanley~~ The Liberal Democrats!"

Young Sunil: "Liberal Democrats? Who are they?"

Young TSE: "Exactly!"

kyf_100 · July 2017

Philip_Thompson said:

williamglenn said:
What's Liam Fox's view on whisky?

Why not require (as whisk[e]y bottles already tend to do) nothing more than a declaration of how aged it is?

That way if a bottle says "aged 2 years" and the purchaser wants a minimum of 3 they know full well and can make an informed decision.

Funny story - in the Great Depression, the US government made it illegal for bourbon to be matured in re-used barrels, in order to stimulate the forestry and coopering trades.

Generally most really good whiskes are matured in re-used barrels because you get a lot of the flavour of what used to be in it, bourbon, sherry and so on. New barrels don't impart the same delicate flavours.

Suntory, the Japanese whisky maker, supposedly bought Jim Beam a few years back simply because the bourbon they made was a by product of what Suntory couldn't get enough of at the time - used bourbon barrels to mature their premium single malts in.

A classic case of how government intervention distorts markets...

AndyJS · July 2017

The late, great Hans Rosling on BBC4 at the moment:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/live/bbcfour

SandyRentool · July 2017

kyf_100 said:

Philip_Thompson said:

williamglenn said:
What's Liam Fox's view on whisky?

Why not require (as whisk[e]y bottles already tend to do) nothing more than a declaration of how aged it is?

That way if a bottle says "aged 2 years" and the purchaser wants a minimum of 3 they know full well and can make an informed decision.
Funny story - in the Great Depression, the US government made it illegal for bourbon to be matured in re-used barrels, in order to stimulate the forestry and coopering trades.

Generally most really good whiskes are matured in re-used barrels because you get a lot of the flavour of what used to be in it, bourbon, sherry and so on. New barrels don't impart the same delicate flavours.

Suntory, the Japanese whisky maker, supposedly bought Jim Beam a few years back simply because the bourbon they made was a by product of what Suntory couldn't get enough of at the time - used bourbon barrels to mature their premium single malts in.

A classic case of how government intervention distorts markets...

Sherry is also a by-product from the production of used sherry casks for maturing single malt in.

Freggles · July 2017

isam said:
"Water is responsible for 99% of someone’s intake of chlorine by-products

Brits would have to eat three entire chlorine-washed chickens every day for an extended period to risk harm"

https://www.adamsmith.org/news/chlorinated-chicken

UKIPpers suddenly fond of fact checking and trusting of foreign regulators.

Straight bananas bad, chlorinated chicken good. Got it

Luckyguy1983 · July 2017

isam said:
"Water is responsible for 99% of someone’s intake of chlorine by-products

Brits would have to eat three entire chlorine-washed chickens every day for an extended period to risk harm"

https://www.adamsmith.org/news/chlorinated-chicken

I think Nick already dealt with the point about chlorinated chicken quite conclusively in the last thread. Far from jumping into a deal with the US, we should be cautious of any post Brexit commitments. TTIP was in fact major concern for many Leave voters, and rightly so. It is to be hoped that a British Government out of the EU will be more accountable to the public in terms of the trade deals it signs.

geoffw · July 2017

Freggles said:

isam said:
"Water is responsible for 99% of someone’s intake of chlorine by-products

Brits would have to eat three entire chlorine-washed chickens every day for an extended period to risk harm"

https://www.adamsmith.org/news/chlorinated-chicken
UKIPpers suddenly fond of fact checking and trusting of foreign regulators.

Straight bananas bad, chlorinated chicken good. Got it

Got what? Salmonella? My sympathies.

Luckyguy1983 · July 2017

I always wash chicken. So far as I'm aware it's only dangerous if you don't clean your kitchen. Can't see how else adding water to something could be bad.

Luckyguy1983 · July 2017

SandyRentool said:

kyf_100 said:

Philip_Thompson said:

williamglenn said:
What's Liam Fox's view on whisky?

Why not require (as whisk[e]y bottles already tend to do) nothing more than a declaration of how aged it is?

That way if a bottle says "aged 2 years" and the purchaser wants a minimum of 3 they know full well and can make an informed decision.
Funny story - in the Great Depression, the US government made it illegal for bourbon to be matured in re-used barrels, in order to stimulate the forestry and coopering trades.

Generally most really good whiskes are matured in re-used barrels because you get a lot of the flavour of what used to be in it, bourbon, sherry and so on. New barrels don't impart the same delicate flavours.

Suntory, the Japanese whisky maker, supposedly bought Jim Beam a few years back simply because the bourbon they made was a by product of what Suntory couldn't get enough of at the time - used bourbon barrels to mature their premium single malts in.

A classic case of how government intervention distorts markets...
Sherry is also a by-product from the production of used sherry casks for maturing single malt in.

But there's not enough sherry produced, and the bodegas don't give up their barrels very often, hence there's a great deal of sherry maturing in Scotland right now just to get the barrels afterwards!

isam · July 2017

Freggles said:

isam said:
"Water is responsible for 99% of someone’s intake of chlorine by-products

Brits would have to eat three entire chlorine-washed chickens every day for an extended period to risk harm"

https://www.adamsmith.org/news/chlorinated-chicken
UKIPpers suddenly fond of fact checking and trusting of foreign regulators.

Straight bananas bad, chlorinated chicken good. Got it

Ah partisan politics, I remember it well

nunuone · July 2017

another_richard said:
Crystal Palace's ground is in the borough of Croydon which was 54.3% Remain - you have the result for Southwark.

Also Stamford Bridge is in the borough of Hammersmith not K&C.

Listing by parliamentary constituency also changes the list, for example Everton and Liverpool grounds are in the Liverpool Walton constituency which voted Leave:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpool_Walton_(UK_Parliament_constituency)

Liverpool Walton 77% labour *majority* and and 86% share of the vote. Insane.

williamglenn · July 2017

A must read interview with Chris Patten.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/brexit-ideological-crap-about-sovereignty-and-taking-back-control-1.3162551

“I think it’s difficult to see how it’s avoided in any rational way. Obviously there are two things I would feel. The first is that when I’m told that people like me have to get over it, I’m not bloody well going to get over it. I think that it’s the worst thing politically that’s happened to Britain in my political lifetime. It’s worse than Suez in a lot of ways because Suez was clearly the end of a story. Joining the European Union was part of our effort to actually find a different role for ourselves in the world,” he says.

“How can you actually snuff out all of the opportunities which Europe offers in the name of this chimera of sovereignty? I think that the longer things go on, the more it will become apparent that the costs are very real.”

nunuone · July 2017

nunuone said:

another_richard said:
Crystal Palace's ground is in the borough of Croydon which was 54.3% Remain - you have the result for Southwark.

Also Stamford Bridge is in the borough of Hammersmith not K&C.

Listing by parliamentary constituency also changes the list, for example Everton and Liverpool grounds are in the Liverpool Walton constituency which voted Leave:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpool_Walton_(UK_Parliament_constituency)
Liverpool Walton 77% labour *majority* and and 86% share of the vote. Insane.

It also voted Tory in the 1950's. Crazy.

another_richard · July 2017

williamglenn said:
A must read interview with Chris Patten.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/brexit-ideological-crap-about-sovereignty-and-taking-back-control-1.3162551

“I think it’s difficult to see how it’s avoided in any rational way. Obviously there are two things I would feel. The first is that when I’m told that people like me have to get over it, I’m not bloody well going to get over it. I think that it’s the worst thing politically that’s happened to Britain in my political lifetime. It’s worse than Suez in a lot of ways because Suez was clearly the end of a story. Joining the European Union was part of our effort to actually find a different role for ourselves in the world,” he says.

“How can you actually snuff out all of the opportunities which Europe offers in the name of this chimera of sovereignty? I think that the longer things go on, the more it will become apparent that the costs are very real.”

Chris Patten has rather a history of thinking that democracy shouldn't inconvenience want he wants.

The EU of course was one of innumerable establishment organisations to which he was appointed - did he declare in the interview how many millions he has had from it ?

williamglenn · July 2017

another_richard said:

williamglenn said:
A must read interview with Chris Patten.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/brexit-ideological-crap-about-sovereignty-and-taking-back-control-1.3162551

“I think it’s difficult to see how it’s avoided in any rational way. Obviously there are two things I would feel. The first is that when I’m told that people like me have to get over it, I’m not bloody well going to get over it. I think that it’s the worst thing politically that’s happened to Britain in my political lifetime. It’s worse than Suez in a lot of ways because Suez was clearly the end of a story. Joining the European Union was part of our effort to actually find a different role for ourselves in the world,” he says.

“How can you actually snuff out all of the opportunities which Europe offers in the name of this chimera of sovereignty? I think that the longer things go on, the more it will become apparent that the costs are very real.”
Chris Patten has rather a history of thinking that democracy shouldn't inconvenience want he wants.

The EU of course was one of innumerable establishment organisations to which he was appointed - did he declare in the interview how many millions he has had from it ?

You can at least enjoy his evisceration of Corbyn even if you don't care for his views on the EU.

“I mean, Michael Foot was a brilliant essayist, a very good historian, a fantastic speaker. To compare Corbyn with that is like comparing the admirable Ed Balls of Strictly with Nureyev. This is not like with like,” he says.

justin124 · July 2017

nunuone said:

another_richard said:
Crystal Palace's ground is in the borough of Croydon which was 54.3% Remain - you have the result for Southwark.

Also Stamford Bridge is in the borough of Hammersmith not K&C.

Listing by parliamentary constituency also changes the list, for example Everton and Liverpool grounds are in the Liverpool Walton constituency which voted Leave:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpool_Walton_(UK_Parliament_constituency)
Liverpool Walton 77% labour *majority* and and 86% share of the vote. Insane.

Until 1964 Liverpool Walton was a Tory seat . Eric Heffer won it that year by circa 1500 votes. Admittedly there have been boundary changes.

IanB2 · July 2017

Luckyguy1983 said:
I always wash chicken. So far as I'm aware it's only dangerous if you don't clean your kitchen. Can't see how else adding water to something could be bad.

http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/homehygiene/Pages/Washing-chicken-can-cause-campylobacter-food-poisoning.aspx

foxinsoxuk · July 2017

isam said:
"Water is responsible for 99% of someone’s intake of chlorine by-products

Brits would have to eat three entire chlorine-washed chickens every day for an extended period to risk harm"

https://www.adamsmith.org/news/chlorinated-chicken

It is not about chlorine toxicity, it is about why chlorine is used at all.

Chlorine soaking and washing is done in America to get past microbial testing. The basic problem is poor husbandry and slaughterline texchnique, with rapid turnover meaning a lot of faecal contamination of meat. As microbial tests are done on the surface, chlorine washes help pass these tests. They are however just a cover up like spraying perfume on a corpse, as they do not deal with deeper contamination.

American chicken needs to be cooked particularly thoughoughly and I would recommend avoiding ground meat, such as hamburger, unless cooked well done. The grinding process, or manufacture of nuggets etc, spreads the faecal contamination throughout the product, and cooking time at the centre of the piece is often insufficient.

Cheap crappy meat is another Brexit bonus.

isam · July 2017

foxinsoxuk said:

isam said:
"Water is responsible for 99% of someone’s intake of chlorine by-products

Brits would have to eat three entire chlorine-washed chickens every day for an extended period to risk harm"

https://www.adamsmith.org/news/chlorinated-chicken
It is not about chlorine toxicity, it is about why chlorine is used at all.

Chlorine soaking and washing is done in America to get past microbial testing. The basic problem is poor husbandry and slaughterline texchnique, with rapid turnover meaning a lot of faecal contamination of meat. As microbial tests are done on the surface, chlorine washes help pass these tests. They are however just a cover up like spraying perfume on a corpse, as they do not deal with deeper contamination.

American chicken needs to be cooked particularly thoughoughly and I would recommend avoiding ground meat, such as hamburger, unless cooked well done. The grinding process, or manufacture of nuggets etc, spreads the faecal contamination throughout the product, and cooking time at the centre of the piece is often insufficient.

Cheap crappy meat is another Brexit bonus.

So a lot of Americans get ill through eating chicken?

foxinsoxuk · July 2017

DavidL said:
FWIW (not a lot) my guess would be

City
Chelsea
United
Spurs
Arsenal
Liverpool
Everton

with Everton the most likely to surprise on the upside.

I think Chelsea will win again, Man City are still too patchy, but I agree Everton are most likely to surprisecon the upside, as are Huddersfield and Brighton.

Luckyguy1983 · July 2017

foxinsoxuk said:

isam said:
"Water is responsible for 99% of someone’s intake of chlorine by-products

Brits would have to eat three entire chlorine-washed chickens every day for an extended period to risk harm"

https://www.adamsmith.org/news/chlorinated-chicken
It is not about chlorine toxicity, it is about why chlorine is used at all.

Chlorine soaking and washing is done in America to get past microbial testing. The basic problem is poor husbandry and slaughterline texchnique, with rapid turnover meaning a lot of faecal contamination of meat. As microbial tests are done on the surface, chlorine washes help pass these tests. They are however just a cover up like spraying perfume on a corpse, as they do not deal with deeper contamination.

American chicken needs to be cooked particularly thoughoughly and I would recommend avoiding ground meat, such as hamburger, unless cooked well done. The grinding process, or manufacture of nuggets etc, spreads the faecal contamination throughout the product, and cooking time at the centre of the piece is often insufficient.

Cheap crappy meat is another Brexit bonus.

Our Government can now decide what deals it enters. It doesn't follow that we will enter any deal going.

foxinsoxuk · July 2017

isam said:

foxinsoxuk said:

isam said:
"Water is responsible for 99% of someone’s intake of chlorine by-products

Brits would have to eat three entire chlorine-washed chickens every day for an extended period to risk harm"

https://www.adamsmith.org/news/chlorinated-chicken
It is not about chlorine toxicity, it is about why chlorine is used at all.

Chlorine soaking and washing is done in America to get past microbial testing. The basic problem is poor husbandry and slaughterline texchnique, with rapid turnover meaning a lot of faecal contamination of meat. As microbial tests are done on the surface, chlorine washes help pass these tests. They are however just a cover up like spraying perfume on a corpse, as they do not deal with deeper contamination.

American chicken needs to be cooked particularly thoughoughly and I would recommend avoiding ground meat, such as hamburger, unless cooked well done. The grinding process, or manufacture of nuggets etc, spreads the faecal contamination throughout the product, and cooking time at the centre of the piece is often insufficient.

Cheap crappy meat is another Brexit bonus.
So a lot of Americans get ill through eating chicken?

About 25% of Americans get food poisoning each year, despite meat being over cooked there as a norm:

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/29285754/ns/health-food_safety/t/food-poisoning-strikes-americans-year/

Luckyguy1983 · July 2017

IanB2 said:

Luckyguy1983 said:
I always wash chicken. So far as I'm aware it's only dangerous if you don't clean your kitchen. Can't see how else adding water to something could be bad.
http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/homehygiene/Pages/Washing-chicken-can-cause-campylobacter-food-poisoning.aspx

That says exactly what I said. Splashing your surfaces with chicken water and leaving the bacteria to multiply is dangerous. Carefully cleaning your chicken, then cleaning where it's been, is not.

MikeL · July 2017

YouGov / The Times poll last week now added to Wiki - not previously reported anywhere I don't think:

C 41, L 43, LD 6, UKIP 3

Last 5 polls (5 different companies):

Lab lead: 2, 2, 1, 1, 2

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election

nunuone · July 2017

justin124 said:

nunuone said:

another_richard said:
Crystal Palace's ground is in the borough of Croydon which was 54.3% Remain - you have the result for Southwark.

Also Stamford Bridge is in the borough of Hammersmith not K&C.

Listing by parliamentary constituency also changes the list, for example Everton and Liverpool grounds are in the Liverpool Walton constituency which voted Leave:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpool_Walton_(UK_Parliament_constituency)
Liverpool Walton 77% labour *majority* and and 86% share of the vote. Insane.
Until 1964 Liverpool Walton was a Tory seat . Eric Heffer won it that year by circa 1500 votes. Admittedly there have been boundary changes.

Boundary changes don't matter because the sourounding seats are also very labour.
Is that an anti Irish vote or something?

DavidL · July 2017

foxinsoxuk said:

DavidL said:
FWIW (not a lot) my guess would be

City
Chelsea
United
Spurs
Arsenal
Liverpool
Everton

with Everton the most likely to surprise on the upside.
I think Chelsea will win again, Man City are still too patchy, but I agree Everton are most likely to surprisecon the upside, as are Huddersfield and Brighton.

Most of City's problems were in defence and they seemed to have addressed that quite well. Not quite persuaded that Morata is an adequate replacement for Costa. With Rooney getting regular games I expect him to score quite a few goals for Everton.

Sean_F · July 2017

justin124 said:

nunuone said:

another_richard said:
Crystal Palace's ground is in the borough of Croydon which was 54.3% Remain - you have the result for Southwark.

Also Stamford Bridge is in the borough of Hammersmith not K&C.

Listing by parliamentary constituency also changes the list, for example Everton and Liverpool grounds are in the Liverpool Walton constituency which voted Leave:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpool_Walton_(UK_Parliament_constituency)
Liverpool Walton 77% labour *majority* and and 86% share of the vote. Insane.
Until 1964 Liverpool Walton was a Tory seat . Eric Heffer won it that year by circa 1500 votes. Admittedly there have been boundary changes.

Where did all the Conservatives go?

But, you could say the same about Labour in rural East Anglia or the New Towns.

franklyn · July 2017

well I have backed Arsenal for relegation at generous odds. They seem to be in melt down, with Sanchez determined to leave

foxinsoxuk · July 2017

Luckyguy1983 said:

foxinsoxuk said:

isam said:
"Water is responsible for 99% of someone’s intake of chlorine by-products

Brits would have to eat three entire chlorine-washed chickens every day for an extended period to risk harm"

https://www.adamsmith.org/news/chlorinated-chicken
It is not about chlorine toxicity, it is about why chlorine is used at all.

Chlorine soaking and washing is done in America to get past microbial testing. The basic problem is poor husbandry and slaughterline texchnique, with rapid turnover meaning a lot of faecal contamination of meat. As microbial tests are done on the surface, chlorine washes help pass these tests. They are however just a cover up like spraying perfume on a corpse, as they do not deal with deeper contamination.

American chicken needs to be cooked particularly thoughoughly and I would recommend avoiding ground meat, such as hamburger, unless cooked well done. The grinding process, or manufacture of nuggets etc, spreads the faecal contamination throughout the product, and cooking time at the centre of the piece is often insufficient.

Cheap crappy meat is another Brexit bonus.
Our Government can now decide what deals it enters. It doesn't follow that we will enter any deal going.

Pretty certain that we are headed to lower standards as part of our "Free trade deals". I personally would applaud higher standards than the EU, but we are not likely to get them.

In particular there must be compulsory labelling of these new imports, so customers can choose to avoid if possible.

isam · July 2017

foxinsoxuk said:

isam said:

foxinsoxuk said:

isam said:
"Water is responsible for 99% of someone’s intake of chlorine by-products

Brits would have to eat three entire chlorine-washed chickens every day for an extended period to risk harm"

https://www.adamsmith.org/news/chlorinated-chicken
It is not about chlorine toxicity, it is about why chlorine is used at all.

Chlorine soaking and washing is done in America to get past microbial testing. The basic problem is poor husbandry and slaughterline texchnique, with rapid turnover meaning a lot of faecal contamination of meat. As microbial tests are done on the surface, chlorine washes help pass these tests. They are however just a cover up like spraying perfume on a corpse, as they do not deal with deeper contamination.

American chicken needs to be cooked particularly thoughoughly and I would recommend avoiding ground meat, such as hamburger, unless cooked well done. The grinding process, or manufacture of nuggets etc, spreads the faecal contamination throughout the product, and cooking time at the centre of the piece is often insufficient.

Cheap crappy meat is another Brexit bonus.
So a lot of Americans get ill through eating chicken?
About 25% of Americans get food poisoning each year, despite meat being over cooked there as a norm:

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/29285754/ns/health-food_safety/t/food-poisoning-strikes-americans-year/

"Food poisoning affects an estimated 25 percent of Americans every year. That compares with roughly 30 percent of people in industrialized countries, according to the World Health Organization"

So it seems (or seemed 8 years ago anyway)

foxinsoxuk · July 2017

DavidL said:

foxinsoxuk said:

DavidL said:
FWIW (not a lot) my guess would be

City
Chelsea
United
Spurs
Arsenal
Liverpool
Everton

with Everton the most likely to surprise on the upside.
I think Chelsea will win again, Man City are still too patchy, but I agree Everton are most likely to surprisecon the upside, as are Huddersfield and Brighton.
Most of City's problems were in defence and they seemed to have addressed that quite well. Not quite persuaded that Morata is an adequate replacement for Costa. With Rooney getting regular games I expect him to score quite a few goals for Everton.

The problem at Man City was not the players, but rather the system. That will not change with the personnel.

I think that Rooney will only have the occasional good game. He is past it now.

Sean_F · July 2017

nunuone said:

justin124 said:

nunuone said:

another_richard said:
Crystal Palace's ground is in the borough of Croydon which was 54.3% Remain - you have the result for Southwark.

Also Stamford Bridge is in the borough of Hammersmith not K&C.

Listing by parliamentary constituency also changes the list, for example Everton and Liverpool grounds are in the Liverpool Walton constituency which voted Leave:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpool_Walton_(UK_Parliament_constituency)
Liverpool Walton 77% labour *majority* and and 86% share of the vote. Insane.
Until 1964 Liverpool Walton was a Tory seat . Eric Heffer won it that year by circa 1500 votes. Admittedly there have been boundary changes.
Boundary changes don't matter because the sourounding seats are also very labour.
Is that an anti Irish vote or something?

It's like a blight spreading outwards. First, working class Liverpool stopped voting along religious lines in the 1960's, and switched to hard left politics. Then, middle class Liverpool switched to hard left politics in the 1980's. Then, all the surrounding middle class areas in the Wirral and Sefton switched to hard left politics in the 2000's.

DavidL · July 2017

MikeL said:
YouGov / The Times poll last week now added to Wiki - not previously reported anywhere I don't think:

C 41, L 43, LD 6, UKIP 3

Last 5 polls (5 different companies):

Lab lead: 2, 2, 1, 1, 2

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election

Which is pretty modest when you consider that the government seems to be in melt down.

another_richard · July 2017

foxinsoxuk said:

isam said:

foxinsoxuk said:

isam said:
"Water is responsible for 99% of someone’s intake of chlorine by-products

Brits would have to eat three entire chlorine-washed chickens every day for an extended period to risk harm"

https://www.adamsmith.org/news/chlorinated-chicken
It is not about chlorine toxicity, it is about why chlorine is used at all.

Chlorine soaking and washing is done in America to get past microbial testing. The basic problem is poor husbandry and slaughterline texchnique, with rapid turnover meaning a lot of faecal contamination of meat. As microbial tests are done on the surface, chlorine washes help pass these tests. They are however just a cover up like spraying perfume on a corpse, as they do not deal with deeper contamination.

American chicken needs to be cooked particularly thoughoughly and I would recommend avoiding ground meat, such as hamburger, unless cooked well done. The grinding process, or manufacture of nuggets etc, spreads the faecal contamination throughout the product, and cooking time at the centre of the piece is often insufficient.

Cheap crappy meat is another Brexit bonus.
So a lot of Americans get ill through eating chicken?
About 25% of Americans get food poisoning each year, despite meat being over cooked there as a norm:

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/29285754/ns/health-food_safety/t/food-poisoning-strikes-americans-year/

How does that compare with Britain ?

And is that 'proper' medical attention required food poisoning or the stomach pain and take a day off work level of 'food poisoning' ?

NickPalmer · July 2017

williamglenn said:

You can at least enjoy his evisceration of Corbyn even if you don't care for his views on the EU.

“I mean, Michael Foot was a brilliant essayist, a very good historian, a fantastic speaker. To compare Corbyn with that is like comparing the admirable Ed Balls of Strictly with Nureyev. This is not like with like,” he says.

It's a matter of taste. I was a candidate under Foot - I respected him for scholarly integrity, but his style was much more Parliamentarian than Corbyn's - involved, elegant phrasing that you could stand back and admire, but not directly engaging with ordinary people. Establishment politicians always rate Parliamentary skill highly but in today's world it's not the primary skill, and it can seem curiously remote from the people it's trying to help. I don't think Corbyn is by any means a master of rhetoric, but he's more convincingly rooted in the underdog world that IMO the left should essentially be about.

isam · July 2017

another_richard said:

foxinsoxuk said:

isam said:

foxinsoxuk said:

isam said:
"Water is responsible for 99% of someone’s intake of chlorine by-products

Brits would have to eat three entire chlorine-washed chickens every day for an extended period to risk harm"

https://www.adamsmith.org/news/chlorinated-chicken
It is not about chlorine toxicity, it is about why chlorine is used at all.

Chlorine soaking and washing is done in America to get past microbial testing. The basic problem is poor husbandry and slaughterline texchnique, with rapid turnover meaning a lot of faecal contamination of meat. As microbial tests are done on the surface, chlorine washes help pass these tests. They are however just a cover up like spraying perfume on a corpse, as they do not deal with deeper contamination.

American chicken needs to be cooked particularly thoughoughly and I would recommend avoiding ground meat, such as hamburger, unless cooked well done. The grinding process, or manufacture of nuggets etc, spreads the faecal contamination throughout the product, and cooking time at the centre of the piece is often insufficient.

Cheap crappy meat is another Brexit bonus.
So a lot of Americans get ill through eating chicken?
About 25% of Americans get food poisoning each year, despite meat being over cooked there as a norm:

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/29285754/ns/health-food_safety/t/food-poisoning-strikes-americans-year/
How does that compare with Britain ?

And is that 'proper' medical attention required food poisoning or the stomach pain and take a day off work level of 'food poisoning' ?

It's almost a decade old, but says 325k hospitalisations due to food poisoning.

another_richard · July 2017

Sean_F said:

justin124 said:

nunuone said:

another_richard said:
Crystal Palace's ground is in the borough of Croydon which was 54.3% Remain - you have the result for Southwark.

Also Stamford Bridge is in the borough of Hammersmith not K&C.

Listing by parliamentary constituency also changes the list, for example Everton and Liverpool grounds are in the Liverpool Walton constituency which voted Leave:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpool_Walton_(UK_Parliament_constituency)
Liverpool Walton 77% labour *majority* and and 86% share of the vote. Insane.
Until 1964 Liverpool Walton was a Tory seat . Eric Heffer won it that year by circa 1500 votes. Admittedly there have been boundary changes.
Where did all the Conservatives go?

But, you could say the same about Labour in rural East Anglia or the New Towns.

Cilla and Tarby were Conservative supporters.

I imagine that they have steadily died off or left for other places and were never replaced.

another_richard · July 2017

nunuone said:

justin124 said:

nunuone said:

another_richard said:
Crystal Palace's ground is in the borough of Croydon which was 54.3% Remain - you have the result for Southwark.

Also Stamford Bridge is in the borough of Hammersmith not K&C.

Listing by parliamentary constituency also changes the list, for example Everton and Liverpool grounds are in the Liverpool Walton constituency which voted Leave:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpool_Walton_(UK_Parliament_constituency)
Liverpool Walton 77% labour *majority* and and 86% share of the vote. Insane.
Until 1964 Liverpool Walton was a Tory seat . Eric Heffer won it that year by circa 1500 votes. Admittedly there have been boundary changes.
Boundary changes don't matter because the sourounding seats are also very labour.
Is that an anti Irish vote or something?

There was always a significant working class unionist vote in Liverpool, not surprising in a city which for many years elected an Irish Nationalist MP.

Similarly in Glasgow.

The ironic thing is that this unionist vote faded away in the 1960s at the same time as the Troubles in Northern Ireland started.

GIN1138 · July 2017

williamglenn said:
What's Liam Fox's view on whisky?

Dunno. What's Drunkers?

Peter_the_Punter · July 2017

another_richard said:

williamglenn said:
A must read interview with Chris Patten.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/brexit-ideological-crap-about-sovereignty-and-taking-back-control-1.3162551

“I think it’s difficult to see how it’s avoided in any rational way. Obviously there are two things I would feel. The first is that when I’m told that people like me have to get over it, I’m not bloody well going to get over it. I think that it’s the worst thing politically that’s happened to Britain in my political lifetime. It’s worse than Suez in a lot of ways because Suez was clearly the end of a story. Joining the European Union was part of our effort to actually find a different role for ourselves in the world,” he says.

“How can you actually snuff out all of the opportunities which Europe offers in the name of this chimera of sovereignty? I think that the longer things go on, the more it will become apparent that the costs are very real.”
Chris Patten has rather a history of thinking that democracy shouldn't inconvenience want he wants.

The EU of course was one of innumerable establishment organisations to which he was appointed - did he declare in the interview how many millions he has had from it ?

Like many on this site, you seem to regard democracy and populism as synonymous.

foxinsoxuk · July 2017

isam said:

foxinsoxuk said:

isam said:

foxinsoxuk said:

isam said:
"Water is responsible for 99% of someone’s intake of chlorine by-products

Brits would have to eat three entire chlorine-washed chickens every day for an extended period to risk harm"

https://www.adamsmith.org/news/chlorinated-chicken
It is not about chlorine toxicity, it is about why chlorine is used at all.

Chlorine soaking and washing is done in America to get past microbial testing. The basic problem is poor husbandry and slaughterline texchnique, with rapid turnover meaning a lot of faecal contamination of meat. As microbial tests are done on the surface, chlorine washes help pass these tests. They are however just a cover up like spraying perfume on a corpse, as they do not deal with deeper contamination.

American chicken needs to be cooked particularly thoughoughly and I would recommend avoiding ground meat, such as hamburger, unless cooked well done. The grinding process, or manufacture of nuggets etc, spreads the faecal contamination throughout the product, and cooking time at the centre of the piece is often insufficient.

Cheap crappy meat is another Brexit bonus.
So a lot of Americans get ill through eating chicken?
About 25% of Americans get food poisoning each year, despite meat being over cooked there as a norm:

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/29285754/ns/health-food_safety/t/food-poisoning-strikes-americans-year/
"Food poisoning affects an estimated 25 percent of Americans every year. That compares with roughly 30 percent of people in industrialized countries, according to the World Health Organization"

So it seems (or seemed 8 years ago anyway)

Sure, there is a lot of poor hygiene elsewhere too. Spain, Greece and Turkey in Europe, but America is quite high, despite the custom of overcooking. The combination of American meat and undercooking is a deadly one.

Ultimately it is about sovereignty. Would you prefer the UK, the EU or the US agribusiness to set our food standards? In whTcway do we gain by being dictated to by the USA?

Sean_F · July 2017

another_richard said:

nunuone said:

justin124 said:

nunuone said:

another_richard said:
Crystal Palace's ground is in the borough of Croydon which was 54.3% Remain - you have the result for Southwark.

Also Stamford Bridge is in the borough of Hammersmith not K&C.

Listing by parliamentary constituency also changes the list, for example Everton and Liverpool grounds are in the Liverpool Walton constituency which voted Leave:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpool_Walton_(UK_Parliament_constituency)
Liverpool Walton 77% labour *majority* and and 86% share of the vote. Insane.
Until 1964 Liverpool Walton was a Tory seat . Eric Heffer won it that year by circa 1500 votes. Admittedly there have been boundary changes.
Boundary changes don't matter because the sourounding seats are also very labour.
Is that an anti Irish vote or something?
There was always a significant working class unionist vote in Liverpool, not surprising in a city which for many years elected an Irish Nationalist MP.

Similarly in Glasgow.

The ironic thing is that this unionist vote faded away in the 1960s at the same time as the Troubles in Northern Ireland started.

The Conservatives enjoyed a last hurrah in Liverpool in 1975-81, before their support fell off a cliff. It was a mix of solid middle class support, and the last of working class unionist support.

another_richard · July 2017

Sean_F said:

nunuone said:

justin124 said:

nunuone said:

another_richard said:
Crystal Palace's ground is in the borough of Croydon which was 54.3% Remain - you have the result for Southwark.

Also Stamford Bridge is in the borough of Hammersmith not K&C.

Listing by parliamentary constituency also changes the list, for example Everton and Liverpool grounds are in the Liverpool Walton constituency which voted Leave:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpool_Walton_(UK_Parliament_constituency)
Liverpool Walton 77% labour *majority* and and 86% share of the vote. Insane.
Until 1964 Liverpool Walton was a Tory seat . Eric Heffer won it that year by circa 1500 votes. Admittedly there have been boundary changes.
Boundary changes don't matter because the sourounding seats are also very labour.
Is that an anti Irish vote or something?
It's like a blight spreading outwards. First, working class Liverpool stopped voting along religious lines in the 1960's, and switched to hard left politics. Then, middle class Liverpool switched to hard left politics in the 1980's. Then, all the surrounding middle class areas in the Wirral and Sefton switched to hard left politics in the 2000's.

Its spread to Chester but not to North Wales.

SeanT suggested it was because Liverpool had gone from being 'second city of the Empire' to second city of Lancashire. And that Scousers were whiny Catholic Celts.

Luckyguy1983 · July 2017

foxinsoxuk said:

isam said:

foxinsoxuk said:

isam said:

foxinsoxuk said:

isam said:
"Water is responsible for 99% of someone’s intake of chlorine by-products

Brits would have to eat three entire chlorine-washed chickens every day for an extended period to risk harm"

https://www.adamsmith.org/news/chlorinated-chicken
It is not about chlorine toxicity, it is about why chlorine is used at all.

Chlorine soaking and washing is done in America to get past microbial testing. The basic problem is poor husbandry and slaughterline texchnique, with rapid turnover meaning a lot of faecal contamination of meat. As microbial tests are done on the surface, chlorine washes help pass these tests. They are however just a cover up like spraying perfume on a corpse, as they do not deal with deeper contamination.

American chicken needs to be cooked particularly thoughoughly and I would recommend avoiding ground meat, such as hamburger, unless cooked well done. The grinding process, or manufacture of nuggets etc, spreads the faecal contamination throughout the product, and cooking time at the centre of the piece is often insufficient.

Cheap crappy meat is another Brexit bonus.
So a lot of Americans get ill through eating chicken?
About 25% of Americans get food poisoning each year, despite meat being over cooked there as a norm:

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/29285754/ns/health-food_safety/t/food-poisoning-strikes-americans-year/
"Food poisoning affects an estimated 25 percent of Americans every year. That compares with roughly 30 percent of people in industrialized countries, according to the World Health Organization"

So it seems (or seemed 8 years ago anyway)
Sure, there is a lot of poor hygiene elsewhere too. Spain, Greece and Turkey in Europe, but America is quite high, despite the custom of overcooking. The combination of American meat and undercooking is a deadly one.

Ultimately it is about sovereignty. Would you prefer the UK, the EU or the US agribusiness to set our food standards? In whTcway do we gain by being dictated to by the USA?

We don't, but a referendum on independence from the USA was not offered. Had one been offered, I would have voted in the same way, for the same reasons.

Roger · July 2017

DavidL said:
Is this the only table Spurs will top this year?

I heard someone say City were spending more on defence than North Korea.

Luckyguy1983 · July 2017

another_richard said:

Sean_F said:

nunuone said:

justin124 said:

nunuone said:

another_richard said:
Crystal Palace's ground is in the borough of Croydon which was 54.3% Remain - you have the result for Southwark.

Also Stamford Bridge is in the borough of Hammersmith not K&C.

Listing by parliamentary constituency also changes the list, for example Everton and Liverpool grounds are in the Liverpool Walton constituency which voted Leave:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpool_Walton_(UK_Parliament_constituency)
Liverpool Walton 77% labour *majority* and and 86% share of the vote. Insane.
Until 1964 Liverpool Walton was a Tory seat . Eric Heffer won it that year by circa 1500 votes. Admittedly there have been boundary changes.
Boundary changes don't matter because the sourounding seats are also very labour.
Is that an anti Irish vote or something?
It's like a blight spreading outwards. First, working class Liverpool stopped voting along religious lines in the 1960's, and switched to hard left politics. Then, middle class Liverpool switched to hard left politics in the 1980's. Then, all the surrounding middle class areas in the Wirral and Sefton switched to hard left politics in the 2000's.
Its spread to Chester but not to North Wales.

SeanT suggested it was because Liverpool had gone from being 'second city of the Empire' to second city of Lancashire. And that Scousers were whiny Catholic Celts.

Pretty sure that the 2nd city of the Empire was Glasgow.

Luckyguy1983 · July 2017

Peter_the_Punter said:

another_richard said:

williamglenn said:
A must read interview with Chris Patten.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/brexit-ideological-crap-about-sovereignty-and-taking-back-control-1.3162551

“I think it’s difficult to see how it’s avoided in any rational way. Obviously there are two things I would feel. The first is that when I’m told that people like me have to get over it, I’m not bloody well going to get over it. I think that it’s the worst thing politically that’s happened to Britain in my political lifetime. It’s worse than Suez in a lot of ways because Suez was clearly the end of a story. Joining the European Union was part of our effort to actually find a different role for ourselves in the world,” he says.

“How can you actually snuff out all of the opportunities which Europe offers in the name of this chimera of sovereignty? I think that the longer things go on, the more it will become apparent that the costs are very real.”
Chris Patten has rather a history of thinking that democracy shouldn't inconvenience want he wants.

The EU of course was one of innumerable establishment organisations to which he was appointed - did he declare in the interview how many millions he has had from it ?
Like many on this site, you seem to regard democracy and populism as synonymous.

Populism is simply a word for democracy one doesn't like.

Barnesian · July 2017

isam said:

foxinsoxuk said:

isam said:
"Water is responsible for 99% of someone’s intake of chlorine by-products

Brits would have to eat three entire chlorine-washed chickens every day for an extended period to risk harm"

https://www.adamsmith.org/news/chlorinated-chicken
It is not about chlorine toxicity, it is about why chlorine is used at all.

Chlorine soaking and washing is done in America to get past microbial testing. The basic problem is poor husbandry and slaughterline texchnique, with rapid turnover meaning a lot of faecal contamination of meat. As microbial tests are done on the surface, chlorine washes help pass these tests. They are however just a cover up like spraying perfume on a corpse, as they do not deal with deeper contamination.

American chicken needs to be cooked particularly thoughoughly and I would recommend avoiding ground meat, such as hamburger, unless cooked well done. The grinding process, or manufacture of nuggets etc, spreads the faecal contamination throughout the product, and cooking time at the centre of the piece is often insufficient.

Cheap crappy meat is another Brexit bonus.
So a lot of Americans get ill through eating chicken?

Yes

"Foodborne illness is a huge health problem in the United States. According to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), one in six Americans — some 48 million people — gets sick each year from food that has been contaminated with pathogens such as norovirus, salmonella, E. coli and listeria."

https://www.minnpost.com/second-opinion/2015/02/why-chicken-making-so-many-us-sick

ReggieCide · July 2017

another_richard said:

Sean_F said:

nunuone said:

justin124 said:

nunuone said:

another_richard said:
Crystal Palace's ground is in the borough of Croydon which was 54.3% Remain - you have the result for Southwark.

Also Stamford Bridge is in the borough of Hammersmith not K&C.

Listing by parliamentary constituency also changes the list, for example Everton and Liverpool grounds are in the Liverpool Walton constituency which voted Leave:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpool_Walton_(UK_Parliament_constituency)
Liverpool Walton 77% labour *majority* and and 86% share of the vote. Insane.
Until 1964 Liverpool Walton was a Tory seat . Eric Heffer won it that year by circa 1500 votes. Admittedly there have been boundary changes.
Boundary changes don't matter because the sourounding seats are also very labour.
Is that an anti Irish vote or something?
It's like a blight spreading outwards. First, working class Liverpool stopped voting along religious lines in the 1960's, and switched to hard left politics. Then, middle class Liverpool switched to hard left politics in the 1980's. Then, all the surrounding middle class areas in the Wirral and Sefton switched to hard left politics in the 2000's.
Its spread to Chester but not to North Wales.

SeanT suggested it was because Liverpool had gone from being 'second city of the Empire' to second city of Lancashire. And that Scousers were whiny Catholic Celts.

I make SeanT right although .... what about Burnley ..... or Preston

isam · July 2017

foxinsoxuk said:

isam said:

foxinsoxuk said:

isam said:

foxinsoxuk said:

isam said:
"Water is responsible for 99% of someone’s intake of chlorine by-products

Brits would have to eat three entire chlorine-washed chickens every day for an extended period to risk harm"

https://www.adamsmith.org/news/chlorinated-chicken
It is not about chlorine toxicity, it is about why chlorine is used at all.

Chlorine soaking and washing is done in America to get past microbial testing. The basic problem is poor husbandry and slaughterline texchnique, with rapid turnover meaning a lot of faecal contamination of meat. As microbial tests are done on the surface, chlorine washes help pass these tests. They are however just a cover up like spraying perfume on a corpse, as they do not deal with deeper contamination.

American chicken needs to be cooked particularly thoughoughly and I would recommend avoiding ground meat, such as hamburger, unless cooked well done. The grinding process, or manufacture of nuggets etc, spreads the faecal contamination throughout the product, and cooking time at the centre of the piece is often insufficient.

Cheap crappy meat is another Brexit bonus.
So a lot of Americans get ill through eating chicken?
About 25% of Americans get food poisoning each year, despite meat being over cooked there as a norm:

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/29285754/ns/health-food_safety/t/food-poisoning-strikes-americans-year/
"Food poisoning affects an estimated 25 percent of Americans every year. That compares with roughly 30 percent of people in industrialized countries, according to the World Health Organization"

So it seems (or seemed 8 years ago anyway)
Sure, there is a lot of poor hygiene elsewhere too. Spain, Greece and Turkey in Europe, but America is quite high, despite the custom of overcooking. The combination of American meat and undercooking is a deadly one.

Ultimately it is about sovereignty. Would you prefer the UK, the EU or the US agribusiness to set our food standards? In whTcway do we gain by being dictated to by the USA?

I don't think it gets anyone anywhere to waste time on arguments where one side constantly extrapolates from the worse case scenario, then uses their conclusions to make snide digs.

felix · July 2017

Peter_the_Punter said:

another_richard said:

williamglenn said:
A must read interview with Chris Patten.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/brexit-ideological-crap-about-sovereignty-and-taking-back-control-1.3162551

“I think it’s difficult to see how it’s avoided in any rational way. Obviously there are two things I would feel. The first is that when I’m told that people like me have to get over it, I’m not bloody well going to get over it. I think that it’s the worst thing politically that’s happened to Britain in my political lifetime. It’s worse than Suez in a lot of ways because Suez was clearly the end of a story. Joining the European Union was part of our effort to actually find a different role for ourselves in the world,” he says.

“How can you actually snuff out all of the opportunities which Europe offers in the name of this chimera of sovereignty? I think that the longer things go on, the more it will become apparent that the costs are very real.”
Chris Patten has rather a history of thinking that democracy shouldn't inconvenience want he wants.

The EU of course was one of innumerable establishment organisations to which he was appointed - did he declare in the interview how many millions he has had from it ?
Like many on this site, you seem to regard democracy and populism as synonymous.

Surely populism is the definition of a democratic vote you don 't like. For the record I voted 'remain'.

Scott_P · July 2017

https://twitter.com/jamescleverly/status/889602680066277376

foxinsoxuk · July 2017

isam said:

foxinsoxuk said:

isam said:

foxinsoxuk said:

isam said:

foxinsoxuk said:

isam said:
"Water is responsible for 99% of someone’s intake of chlorine by-products

Brits would have to eat three entire chlorine-washed chickens every day for an extended period to risk harm"

https://www.adamsmith.org/news/chlorinated-chicken
It is not about chlorine toxicity, it is about why chlorine is used at all.

Chlorine soaking and washing is done in America to get past microbial testing. The basic problem is poor husbandry and slaughterline texchnique, with rapid turnover meaning a lot of faecal contamination of meat. As microbial tests are done on the surface, chlorine washes help pass these tests. They are however just a cover up like spraying perfume on a corpse, as they do not deal with deeper contamination.

American chicken needs to be cooked particularly thoughoughly and I would recommend avoiding ground meat, such as hamburger, unless cooked well done. The grinding process, or manufacture of nuggets etc, spreads the faecal contamination throughout the product, and cooking time at the centre of the piece is often insufficient.

Cheap crappy meat is another Brexit bonus.
So a lot of Americans get ill through eating chicken?
About 25% of Americans get food poisoning each year, despite meat being over cooked there as a norm:

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/29285754/ns/health-food_safety/t/food-poisoning-strikes-americans-year/
"Food poisoning affects an estimated 25 percent of Americans every year. That compares with roughly 30 percent of people in industrialized countries, according to the World Health Organization"

So it seems (or seemed 8 years ago anyway)
Sure, there is a lot of poor hygiene elsewhere too. Spain, Greece and Turkey in Europe, but America is quite high, despite the custom of overcooking. The combination of American meat and undercooking is a deadly one.

Ultimately it is about sovereignty. Would you prefer the UK, the EU or the US agribusiness to set our food standards? In whTcway do we gain by being dictated to by the USA?
I don't think it gets anyone anywhere to waste time on arguments where one side constantly extrapolates from the worse case scenario, then uses their conclusions to make snide digs.

So you reject the plans to import American foodstuffs that fall short of our current standards?

There is hope for you yet!

Sean_F · July 2017

MyBurningEars said:

Sean_F said:

It's like a blight spreading outwards. First, working class Liverpool stopped voting along religious lines in the 1960's, and switched to hard left politics. Then, middle class Liverpool switched to hard left politics in the 1980's. Then, all the surrounding middle class areas in the Wirral and Sefton switched to hard left politics in the 2000's.
We often see data showing the public-private sector employment split, and also for the ABC1 - C2DE split, but I do wonder if it would be more informative to cross-tabulate, especially to look at the % of people working ABC1 private-sector jobs.

Labour now do very well among ABC1s, but some part of that must be the expansion of professional/graduate roles in the public sector. And there must be lots of towns where there are very few ABC1 private-sector jobs.

Anywhere that's a big city is now stony ground for Conservatives. And, that generally holds good throughout Western democracies for centre-right parties.

But small cities and large towns still have plenty of Conservative voters.

Peter_the_Punter · July 2017

Luckyguy1983 said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

another_richard said:

williamglenn said:
A must read interview with Chris Patten.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/brexit-ideological-crap-about-sovereignty-and-taking-back-control-1.3162551

“I think it’s difficult to see how it’s avoided in any rational way. Obviously there are two things I would feel. The first is that when I’m told that people like me have to get over it, I’m not bloody well going to get over it. I think that it’s the worst thing politically that’s happened to Britain in my political lifetime. It’s worse than Suez in a lot of ways because Suez was clearly the end of a story. Joining the European Union was part of our effort to actually find a different role for ourselves in the world,” he says.

“How can you actually snuff out all of the opportunities which Europe offers in the name of this chimera of sovereignty? I think that the longer things go on, the more it will become apparent that the costs are very real.”
Chris Patten has rather a history of thinking that democracy shouldn't inconvenience want he wants.

The EU of course was one of innumerable establishment organisations to which he was appointed - did he declare in the interview how many millions he has had from it ?
Like many on this site, you seem to regard democracy and populism as synonymous.
Populism is simply a word for democracy one doesn't like.

That's an abuse of the English language up with which I cannot put.

Seriously, it astonishes me that on a site where the discussion is generally of a good standard so many people seem to regard the referendum as an example of democracy and therefore sacrosanct. It was neither.

(But please, please do not infer from this I believe we should not accept the result. We should. We have made the bed. We must kip in it.)

Mortimer · July 2017

Peter_the_Punter said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

another_richard said:

williamglenn said:
A must read interview with Chris Patten.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/brexit-ideological-crap-about-sovereignty-and-taking-back-control-1.3162551

“I think it’s difficult to see how it’s avoided in any rational way. Obviously there are two things I would feel. The first is that when I’m told that people like me have to get over it, I’m not bloody well going to get over it. I think that it’s the worst thing politically that’s happened to Britain in my political lifetime. It’s worse than Suez in a lot of ways because Suez was clearly the end of a story. Joining the European Union was part of our effort to actually find a different role for ourselves in the world,” he says.

“How can you actually snuff out all of the opportunities which Europe offers in the name of this chimera of sovereignty? I think that the longer things go on, the more it will become apparent that the costs are very real.”
Chris Patten has rather a history of thinking that democracy shouldn't inconvenience want he wants.

The EU of course was one of innumerable establishment organisations to which he was appointed - did he declare in the interview how many millions he has had from it ?
Like many on this site, you seem to regard democracy and populism as synonymous.
Populism is simply a word for democracy one doesn't like.
That's an abuse of the English language up with which I cannot put.

Seriously, it astonishes me that on a site where the discussion is generally of a good standard so many people seem to regard the referendum as an example of democracy and therefore sacrosanct. It was neither.

(But please, please do not infer from this I believe we should not accept the result. We should. We have made the bed. We must kip in it.)

Why don't you think the result of the referendum is sacrosanct Peter?

another_richard · July 2017

Peter_the_Punter said:

another_richard said:

williamglenn said:
A must read interview with Chris Patten.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/brexit-ideological-crap-about-sovereignty-and-taking-back-control-1.3162551

“I think it’s difficult to see how it’s avoided in any rational way. Obviously there are two things I would feel. The first is that when I’m told that people like me have to get over it, I’m not bloody well going to get over it. I think that it’s the worst thing politically that’s happened to Britain in my political lifetime. It’s worse than Suez in a lot of ways because Suez was clearly the end of a story. Joining the European Union was part of our effort to actually find a different role for ourselves in the world,” he says.

“How can you actually snuff out all of the opportunities which Europe offers in the name of this chimera of sovereignty? I think that the longer things go on, the more it will become apparent that the costs are very real.”
Chris Patten has rather a history of thinking that democracy shouldn't inconvenience want he wants.

The EU of course was one of innumerable establishment organisations to which he was appointed - did he declare in the interview how many millions he has had from it ?
Like many on this site, you seem to regard democracy and populism as synonymous.

No, but what has been shown is that various establishments figures don't think there should be any requirement to respect the results of democracy if those results are not to their liking. For example Niall Ferguson quoted some such establishment figures in the Sunday Times yesterday.

And I assumed, rather carelessly and perhaps erroneously, that Chris Patten was of a similar mindset.

To be honest I've had a down on Chris Patten since he went from losing in 1992 to being given an immediate and prestigious new job. Quite a contrast to people I knew who were unemployed at that time. Like now we weren't 'all in this together' back then.

foxinsoxuk · July 2017

Mortimer said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

another_richard said:

williamglenn said:
A must read interview with Chris Patten.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/brexit-ideological-crap-about-sovereignty-and-taking-back-control-1.3162551

“I think it’s difficult to see how it’s avoided in any rational way. Obviously there are two things I would feel. The first is that when I’m told that people like me have to get over it, I’m not bloody well going to get over it. I think that it’s the worst thing politically that’s happened to Britain in my political lifetime. It’s worse than Suez in a lot of ways because Suez was clearly the end of a story. Joining the European Union was part of our effort to actually find a different role for ourselves in the world,” he says.

“How can you actually snuff out all of the opportunities which Europe offers in the name of this chimera of sovereignty? I think that the longer things go on, the more it will become apparent that the costs are very real.”
Chris Patten has rather a history of thinking that democracy shouldn't inconvenience want he wants.

The EU of course was one of innumerable establishment organisations to which he was appointed - did he declare in the interview how many millions he has had from it ?
Like many on this site, you seem to regard democracy and populism as synonymous.
Populism is simply a word for democracy one doesn't like.
That's an abuse of the English language up with which I cannot put.

Seriously, it astonishes me that on a site where the discussion is generally of a good standard so many people seem to regard the referendum as an example of democracy and therefore sacrosanct. It was neither.

(But please, please do not infer from this I believe we should not accept the result. We should. We have made the bed. We must kip in it.)
Why don't you think the result of the referendum is sacrosanct Peter?

All votes are valid for the time they are taken, but none are perpetual. Any vote can be overtaken by events.

That said, we should go ahead with Brexit, so that the people can see the error of their ways.

Sean_F · July 2017

Peter_the_Punter said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

another_richard said:

williamglenn said:
A must read interview with Chris Patten.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/brexit-ideological-crap-about-sovereignty-and-taking-back-control-1.3162551

“I think it’s difficult to see how it’s avoided in any rational way. Obviously there are two things I would feel. The first is that when I’m told that people like me have to get over it, I’m not bloody well going to get over it. I think that it’s the worst thing politically that’s happened to Britain in my political lifetime. It’s worse than Suez in a lot of ways because Suez was clearly the end of a story. Joining the European Union was part of our effort to actually find a different role for ourselves in the world,” he says.

“How can you actually snuff out all of the opportunities which Europe offers in the name of this chimera of sovereignty? I think that the longer things go on, the more it will become apparent that the costs are very real.”
Chris Patten has rather a history of thinking that democracy shouldn't inconvenience want he wants.

The EU of course was one of innumerable establishment organisations to which he was appointed - did he declare in the interview how many millions he has had from it ?
Like many on this site, you seem to regard democracy and populism as synonymous.
Populism is simply a word for democracy one doesn't like.
That's an abuse of the English language up with which I cannot put.

Seriously, it astonishes me that on a site where the discussion is generally of a good standard so many people seem to regard the referendum as an example of democracy and therefore sacrosanct. It was neither.

(But please, please do not infer from this I believe we should not accept the result. We should. We have made the bed. We must kip in it.)

It was certainly an example of democracy.

It doesn't necessarily follow that it was sacrosanct. Plenty of the world's greatest thinkers have condemned democracy.

another_richard · July 2017

Sean_F said:

another_richard said:

nunuone said:

justin124 said:

nunuone said:

another_richard said:
Crystal Palace's ground is in the borough of Croydon which was 54.3% Remain - you have the result for Southwark.

Also Stamford Bridge is in the borough of Hammersmith not K&C.

Listing by parliamentary constituency also changes the list, for example Everton and Liverpool grounds are in the Liverpool Walton constituency which voted Leave:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpool_Walton_(UK_Parliament_constituency)
Liverpool Walton 77% labour *majority* and and 86% share of the vote. Insane.
Until 1964 Liverpool Walton was a Tory seat . Eric Heffer won it that year by circa 1500 votes. Admittedly there have been boundary changes.
Boundary changes don't matter because the sourounding seats are also very labour.
Is that an anti Irish vote or something?
There was always a significant working class unionist vote in Liverpool, not surprising in a city which for many years elected an Irish Nationalist MP.

Similarly in Glasgow.

The ironic thing is that this unionist vote faded away in the 1960s at the same time as the Troubles in Northern Ireland started.
The Conservatives enjoyed a last hurrah in Liverpool in 1975-81, before their support fell off a cliff. It was a mix of solid middle class support, and the last of working class unionist support.

There was quite a few Conservative voters in Brookside in the 1980s - Ron Dixon was referred to as voting Conservative in 1992.

Scott_P · July 2017

foxinsoxuk said:
All votes are valid for the time they are taken, but none are perpetual. Any vote can be overtaken by events.

That said, we should go ahead with Brexit, so that the people can see the error of their ways.

Janan Ganesh in the FT

A century after Passchendaele, the death site of hundreds of thousands of allied and German soldiers, the causes of the great war remain contested. Among the scholarly guesses is that Europe was mesmerised by its own long peace. The concert of empires that had averted general continental violence also inured populations to the reality of it. They went to war in a jingoist stupor because they lacked the recent experience to know better.

Today, nothing on the turbulent horizon of the western world equals that war. It is turbulent all the same. There is a similar feeling of a liberal order besieged and, dare we say, a similar sense of innocents volunteering for trouble without really knowing it.

What if the Petri dish of radicalism is not mass suffering but prolonged order? What if electorates flirt with high-risk change out of complacency born of (relative) good times?

https://www.ft.com/content/8d511dd4-7049-11e7-aca6-c6bd07df1a3c

Peter_the_Punter · July 2017

Sean_F said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

another_richard said:

williamglenn said:
A must read interview with Chris Patten.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/brexit-ideological-crap-about-sovereignty-and-taking-back-control-1.3162551

“I think it’s difficult to see how it’s avoided in any rational way. Obviously there are two things I would feel. The first is that when I’m told that people like me have to get over it, I’m not bloody well going to get over it. I think that it’s the worst thing politically that’s happened to Britain in my political lifetime. It’s worse than Suez in a lot of ways because Suez was clearly the end of a story. Joining the European Union was part of our effort to actually find a different role for ourselves in the world,” he says.

“How can you actually snuff out all of the opportunities which Europe offers in the name of this chimera of sovereignty? I think that the longer things go on, the more it will become apparent that the costs are very real.”
Chris Patten has rather a history of thinking that democracy shouldn't inconvenience want he wants.

The EU of course was one of innumerable establishment organisations to which he was appointed - did he declare in the interview how many millions he has had from it ?
Like many on this site, you seem to regard democracy and populism as synonymous.
Populism is simply a word for democracy one doesn't like.
That's an abuse of the English language up with which I cannot put.

Seriously, it astonishes me that on a site where the discussion is generally of a good standard so many people seem to regard the referendum as an example of democracy and therefore sacrosanct. It was neither.

(But please, please do not infer from this I believe we should not accept the result. We should. We have made the bed. We must kip in it.)
It was certainly an example of democracy.

It doesn't necessarily follow that it was sacrosanct. Plenty of the world's greatest thinkers have condemned democracy.

I must have gone to the wrong school, Sean.

To me, democracy in its modern western sense implies electing representatives to run things in our best interests to the best of their ability. Every five years or so, we change some of those representatives.

A referendum asks the populace what it thinks on a particular issue, on a particular day.

That's not the same. It's not even close, is it?

isam · July 2017

foxinsoxuk said:

isam said:

foxinsoxuk said:

isam said:

foxinsoxuk said:

isam said:

foxinsoxuk said:

isam said:
"Water is responsible for 99% of someone’s intake of chlorine by-products

Brits would have to eat three entire chlorine-washed chickens every day for an extended period to risk harm"

https://www.adamsmith.org/news/chlorinated-chicken
It is not about chlorine toxicity, it is about why chlorine is used at all.

Chlorine soaking and washing is done in America to get past microbial testing. The basic problem is poor husbandry and slaughterline texchnique, with rapid turnover meaning a lot of faecal contamination of meat. As microbial tests are done on the surface, chlorine washes help pass these tests. They are however just a cover up like spraying perfume on a corpse, as they do not deal with deeper contamination.

American chicken needs to be cooked particularly thoughoughly and I would recommend avoiding ground meat, such as hamburger, unless cooked well done. The grinding process, or manufacture of nuggets etc, spreads the faecal contamination throughout the product, and cooking time at the centre of the piece is often insufficient.

Cheap crappy meat is another Brexit bonus.
So a lot of Americans get ill through eating chicken?
About 25% of Americans get food poisoning each year, despite meat being over cooked there as a norm:

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/29285754/ns/health-food_safety/t/food-poisoning-strikes-americans-year/
"Food poisoning affects an estimated 25 percent of Americans every year. That compares with roughly 30 percent of people in industrialized countries, according to the World Health Organization"

So it seems (or seemed 8 years ago anyway)
Sure, there is a lot of poor hygiene elsewhere too. Spain, Greece and Turkey in Europe, but America is quite high, despite the custom of overcooking. The combination of American meat and undercooking is a deadly one.

Ultimately it is about sovereignty. Would you prefer the UK, the EU or the US agribusiness to set our food standards? In whTcway do we gain by being dictated to by the USA?
I don't think it gets anyone anywhere to waste time on arguments where one side constantly extrapolates from the worse case scenario, then uses their conclusions to make snide digs.
So you reject the plans to import American foodstuffs that fall short of our current standards?

There is hope for you yet!

Its not worth my while to even speculate on it, if I hear that the food we import is not up to scratch I will shop around or not eat that food. We had horsemeat in the supermarkets masquerading as beef a few years ago I seem to recall

Luckyguy1983 · July 2017

Scott_P said:

foxinsoxuk said:
All votes are valid for the time they are taken, but none are perpetual. Any vote can be overtaken by events.

That said, we should go ahead with Brexit, so that the people can see the error of their ways.
Janan Ganesh in the FT

A century after Passchendaele, the death site of hundreds of thousands of allied and German soldiers, the causes of the great war remain contested. Among the scholarly guesses is that Europe was mesmerised by its own long peace. The concert of empires that had averted general continental violence also inured populations to the reality of it. They went to war in a jingoist stupor because they lacked the recent experience to know better.

Today, nothing on the turbulent horizon of the western world equals that war. It is turbulent all the same. There is a similar feeling of a liberal order besieged and, dare we say, a similar sense of innocents volunteering for trouble without really knowing it.

What if the Petri dish of radicalism is not mass suffering but prolonged order? What if electorates flirt with high-risk change out of complacency born of (relative) good times?

https://www.ft.com/content/8d511dd4-7049-11e7-aca6-c6bd07df1a3c

Except it wasn't the people who chose to go to war then, and funnily enough it's not the people pushing for war now.

foxinsoxuk · July 2017

Scott_P said:

foxinsoxuk said:
All votes are valid for the time they are taken, but none are perpetual. Any vote can be overtaken by events.

That said, we should go ahead with Brexit, so that the people can see the error of their ways.
Janan Ganesh in the FT

A century after Passchendaele, the death site of hundreds of thousands of allied and German soldiers, the causes of the great war remain contested. Among the scholarly guesses is that Europe was mesmerised by its own long peace. The concert of empires that had averted general continental violence also inured populations to the reality of it. They went to war in a jingoist stupor because they lacked the recent experience to know better.

Today, nothing on the turbulent horizon of the western world equals that war. It is turbulent all the same. There is a similar feeling of a liberal order besieged and, dare we say, a similar sense of innocents volunteering for trouble without really knowing it.

What if the Petri dish of radicalism is not mass suffering but prolonged order? What if electorates flirt with high-risk change out of complacency born of (relative) good times?

https://www.ft.com/content/8d511dd4-7049-11e7-aca6-c6bd07df1a3c

Very true, people don't appreciate what they have until it is gone.

Luckyguy1983 · July 2017

Peter_the_Punter said:

Sean_F said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

another_richard said:

williamglenn said:
A must read interview with Chris Patten.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/brexit-ideological-crap-about-sovereignty-and-taking-back-control-1.3162551

“I think it’s difficult to see how it’s avoided in any rational way. Obviously there are two things I would feel. The first is that when I’m told that people like me have to get over it, I’m not bloody well going to get over it. I think that it’s the worst thing politically that’s happened to Britain in my political lifetime. It’s worse than Suez in a lot of ways because Suez was clearly the end of a story. Joining the European Union was part of our effort to actually find a different role for ourselves in the world,” he says.

“How can you actually snuff out all of the opportunities which Europe offers in the name of this chimera of sovereignty? I think that the longer things go on, the more it will become apparent that the costs are very real.”
Chris Patten has rather a history of thinking that democracy shouldn't inconvenience want he wants.

The EU of course was one of innumerable establishment organisations to which he was appointed - did he declare in the interview how many millions he has had from it ?
Like many on this site, you seem to regard democracy and populism as synonymous.
Populism is simply a word for democracy one doesn't like.
That's an abuse of the English language up with which I cannot put.

Seriously, it astonishes me that on a site where the discussion is generally of a good standard so many people seem to regard the referendum as an example of democracy and therefore sacrosanct. It was neither.

(But please, please do not infer from this I believe we should not accept the result. We should. We have made the bed. We must kip in it.)
It was certainly an example of democracy.

It doesn't necessarily follow that it was sacrosanct. Plenty of the world's greatest thinkers have condemned democracy.
I must have gone to the wrong school, Sean.

To me, democracy in its modern western sense implies electing representatives to run things in our best interests to the best of their ability. Every five years or so, we change some of those representatives.

A referendum asks the populace what it thinks on a particular issue, on a particular day.

That's not the same. It's not even close, is it?

The Swiss have them all the time. They're not exactly rampaging Trumpians.

Peter_the_Punter · July 2017

Luckyguy1983 said:

Scott_P said:

foxinsoxuk said:
All votes are valid for the time they are taken, but none are perpetual. Any vote can be overtaken by events.

That said, we should go ahead with Brexit, so that the people can see the error of their ways.
Janan Ganesh in the FT

A century after Passchendaele, the death site of hundreds of thousands of allied and German soldiers, the causes of the great war remain contested. Among the scholarly guesses is that Europe was mesmerised by its own long peace. The concert of empires that had averted general continental violence also inured populations to the reality of it. They went to war in a jingoist stupor because they lacked the recent experience to know better.

Today, nothing on the turbulent horizon of the western world equals that war. It is turbulent all the same. There is a similar feeling of a liberal order besieged and, dare we say, a similar sense of innocents volunteering for trouble without really knowing it.

What if the Petri dish of radicalism is not mass suffering but prolonged order? What if electorates flirt with high-risk change out of complacency born of (relative) good times?

https://www.ft.com/content/8d511dd4-7049-11e7-aca6-c6bd07df1a3c
Except it wasn't the people who chose to go to war then, and funnily enough it's not the people pushing for war now.

WWI was very popular when it was declared. WWII was not.

Luckyguy1983 · July 2017

Peter_the_Punter said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

Scott_P said:

foxinsoxuk said:
All votes are valid for the time they are taken, but none are perpetual. Any vote can be overtaken by events.

That said, we should go ahead with Brexit, so that the people can see the error of their ways.
Janan Ganesh in the FT

A century after Passchendaele, the death site of hundreds of thousands of allied and German soldiers, the causes of the great war remain contested. Among the scholarly guesses is that Europe was mesmerised by its own long peace. The concert of empires that had averted general continental violence also inured populations to the reality of it. They went to war in a jingoist stupor because they lacked the recent experience to know better.

Today, nothing on the turbulent horizon of the western world equals that war. It is turbulent all the same. There is a similar feeling of a liberal order besieged and, dare we say, a similar sense of innocents volunteering for trouble without really knowing it.

What if the Petri dish of radicalism is not mass suffering but prolonged order? What if electorates flirt with high-risk change out of complacency born of (relative) good times?

https://www.ft.com/content/8d511dd4-7049-11e7-aca6-c6bd07df1a3c
Except it wasn't the people who chose to go to war then, and funnily enough it's not the people pushing for war now.
WWI was very popular when it was declared. WWII was not.

Its reception is immaterial.

Peter_the_Punter · July 2017

Luckyguy1983 said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

Scott_P said:

foxinsoxuk said:
All votes are valid for the time they are taken, but none are perpetual. Any vote can be overtaken by events.

That said, we should go ahead with Brexit, so that the people can see the error of their ways.
Janan Ganesh in the FT

A century after Passchendaele, the death site of hundreds of thousands of allied and German soldiers, the causes of the great war remain contested. Among the scholarly guesses is that Europe was mesmerised by its own long peace. The concert of empires that had averted general continental violence also inured populations to the reality of it. They went to war in a jingoist stupor because they lacked the recent experience to know better.

Today, nothing on the turbulent horizon of the western world equals that war. It is turbulent all the same. There is a similar feeling of a liberal order besieged and, dare we say, a similar sense of innocents volunteering for trouble without really knowing it.

What if the Petri dish of radicalism is not mass suffering but prolonged order? What if electorates flirt with high-risk change out of complacency born of (relative) good times?

https://www.ft.com/content/8d511dd4-7049-11e7-aca6-c6bd07df1a3c
Except it wasn't the people who chose to go to war then, and funnily enough it's not the people pushing for war now.
WWI was very popular when it was declared. WWII was not.
Its reception is immaterial.

Oh. Ok.

foxinsoxuk · July 2017

isam said:

foxinsoxuk said:

isam said:

foxinsoxuk said:

isam said:

foxinsoxuk said:

isam said:

foxinsoxuk said:

isam said:
"Water is responsible for 99% of someone’s intake of chlorine by-products

Brits would have to eat three entire chlorine-washed chickens every day for an extended period to risk harm"

https://www.adamsmith.org/news/chlorinated-chicken
It is not about chlorine toxicity, it is about why chlorine is used at all.

Chlorine soaking and washing is done in

Cheap crappy meat is another Brexit bonus.
So a lot of Americans get ill through eating chicken?
About 25% of Americans get food poisoning each year, despite meat being over cooked there as a norm:

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/29285754/ns/health-food_safety/t/food-poisoning-strikes-americans-year/
"Food poisoning affects an estimated 25 percent of Americans every year. That compares with roughly 30 percent of people in industrialized countries, according to the World Health Organization"

So it seems (or seemed 8 years ago anyway)
Sure, there is a lot of poor hygiene elsewhere too. Spain, Greece and Turkey in Europe, but America is quite high, despite the custom of overcooking. The combination of American meat and undercooking is a deadly one.

Ultimately it is about sovereignty. Would you prefer the UK, the EU or the US agribusiness to set our food standards? In whTcway do we gain by being dictated to by the USA?
I don't think it gets anyone anywhere to waste time on arguments where one side constantly extrapolates from the worse case scenario, then uses their conclusions to make snide digs.
So you reject the plans to import American foodstuffs that fall short of our current standards?

There is hope for you yet!
Its not worth my while to even speculate on it, if I hear that the food we import is not up to scratch I will shop around or not eat that food. We had horsemeat in the supermarkets masquerading as beef a few years ago I seem to recall

The key is labelling. Will this food be labelled properly? or will the Americans want to insist that labelling is a non tariff barrier as they did with GM tomatoes?

The horsemeat scandal was because of criminal behavior, not lax standards.

Sean_F · July 2017

Peter_the_Punter said:

Sean_F said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

another_richard said:

williamglenn said:
A must read interview with Chris Patten.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/brexit-ideological-crap-about-sovereignty-and-taking-back-control-1.3162551

“I think it’s difficult to see how it’s avoided in any rational way. Obviously there are two things I would feel. The first is that when I’m told that people like me have to get over it, I’m not bloody well going to get over it. I think that it’s the worst thing politically that’s happened to Britain in my political lifetime. It’s worse than Suez in a lot of ways because Suez was clearly the end of a story. Joining the European Union was part of our effort to actually find a different role for ourselves in the world,” he says.

“How can you actually snuff out all of the opportunities which Europe offers in the name of this chimera of sovereignty? I think that the longer things go on, the more it will become apparent that the costs are very real.”
Chris Patten has rather a history of thinking that democracy shouldn't inconvenience want he wants.

The EU of course was one of innumerable establishment organisations to which he was appointed - did he declare in the interview how many millions he has had from it ?
Like many on this site, you seem to regard democracy and populism as synonymous.
Populism is simply a word for democracy one doesn't like.
That's an abuse of the English language up with which I cannot put.

Seriously, it astonishes me that on a site where the discussion is generally of a good standard so many people seem to regard the referendum as an example of democracy and therefore sacrosanct. It was neither.

(But please, please do not infer from this I believe we should not accept the result. We should. We have made the bed. We must kip in it.)
It was certainly an example of democracy.

It doesn't necessarily follow that it was sacrosanct. Plenty of the world's greatest thinkers have condemned democracy.
I must have gone to the wrong school, Sean.

To me, democracy in its modern western sense implies electing representatives to run things in our best interests to the best of their ability. Every five years or so, we change some of those representatives.

A referendum asks the populace what it thinks on a particular issue, on a particular day.

That's not the same. It's not even close, is it?

Referenda are a frequent feature of Western democracies.

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