politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Can Vince make a Brexit-exit work for the Lib Dems?
Comments
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Benpointer said:
Haha - I agree with next to nothing you say GIN but this made me smile.GIN1138 said:WOW! Nasty on here this morning!!!!!
Could still be June 23rd 2016...
That's my job - Turn that frown upside down!!!!
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I think a great opportunity for the LDs will be on civil liberties, as Mrs May tries to propose banning encryption because terrorism. Someone needs to stand up to such proposals and sadly too many Conservatives will go along with it.IanB2 said:
The problem the third party always faces is that on most big issues there are two distinctive stances at the extremes, and usually the main parties have positions on (or as close to as is generally acceptable) those sewn up. In the real world of course it is often more sensible to fashion a middle course between the extremes, and the LibDems do have reams of sensible but unmemorable policy on almost everything (and further, having campaigned from the extreme, something close to LibDem policy is often what the main parties end up implementing, once their ideas make contact with the world as it is). But this isn't any good at getting them noticed.CD13 said:I'm surprised that the LDs are happy to be a single issue party.
They aimed at the 48% and their main policy is ... we'll have another referendum because we didn't like the result last time, which begs the question ... what then? In 18 months time, and if they succeed, we'll go back on bended knees and accept any deal that Barmier and Juncker want. Is that what the 48% want?
It's an incoherent policy. The more stubborn the EU becomes, the less the electorate will accept their rule. .'Vote LD ... Because we are not worthy.' isn't a vote winner. Only the most fanatical Remainers think it is.
The opportunities for the LibDems tend to come along when both main parties adopt a similar position on an issue, leaving the other side unchampioned (Iraq being the obvious example), or where an issue is emerging or growing in importance and being more nimble they can stake out the ground first (for many years environmentalism was a good example). Brexit looked like an example of the former, that has so far not paid any divided, and should sensibly be broadened into internationalism as someone suggests downthread. Drugs policy is an example of the latter. The trouble with the latter is that adopting positions early rarely appeals to more than a small minority. And, by the time you are proved right, either everyone has forgotten that you were first, or cares more about something else.
A good use of a private members' bill might be to propose the decriminalisation of certain drugs, a la Portugal where a few years on it's shown to work well. I've always said that the current middle way drugs policy in the UK and US doesn't work, what works is either the Portugal/Netherlands approach or the Thailand/Singapore/UAE approach.
They do need to get off trying to overturn Brexit though, engage positively with the process instead of fighting the last battle. I'm not too sure that Vince Cable is the man for that though.0 -
Don't know that much about him Gin, but sounds a good chap. More interesting fact is that Theresa is so feart of encountering Nicola that she has banned meetings with her and said she can only talk to that turnip Mundell as she is not important enough to be able to talk personally to her Greatness.GIN1138 said:
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Weighed in weighed in
I had my suspicions... & they've been confirmed... he's back!
All the clues pointed in the same direction...0 -
People in their 40s sometimes are familiar with forweigners, sometimes not. People over 70 are often very ignorant. The only foreigner my father-in-law (a Somerset farmer) had ever met in his life was an Italian POW who worked on his father's farm in the war, and he was deeply anti-foreigner. Until... his wife had to go into care and most of the staff were immigrants. How his perceptions of foreigners improved once he actually got to know them as people!Sean_F said:
42 was the tipping point, above which, each age cohort favoured Brexit over Remain. People in their forties are familiar with foreigners.Roger said:
More an age thing. Schools today are mixed in every sort of way. The old don't like foreigners because in their formative years they hardly met any. Same reason rural areas produce more Leavers than the cities.0 -
Be calling it New London soonanother_richard said:
We're told that London is now a 'world city'.isam said:Behind every great fortune is a crime forgotten. Those who celebrate mass immigration and how London's economy prospers on the back of it, look away now
https://twitter.com/standardnews/status/888680013192613888
Of course most of the world consists of the third world.
So isn't it inevitable that 'world city' London increasingly has the attributes of a third world city.0 -
I've seen him a couple of times at PMQ's and think he looks like a duffer. SNP need to get rid and put a "maverick" in as Westminsiter leader.malcolmg said:
Don't know that much about him Gin, but sounds a good chap. More interesting fact is that Theresa is so feart of encountering Nicola that she has banned meetings with her and said she can only talk to that turnip Mundell as she is not important enough to be able to talk personally to her Greatness.GIN1138 said:
It sounds like Theresa is Frit of Nicola...0 -
You haven't tried to explain your position, you prefer to lash out impotently with insults that do nothing but embarrass you.AlastairMeeks said:
Perhaps you haven't tried to understand my position.Sean_F said:
Perhaps you lost because you couldn't make a convincing case for the EU.AlastairMeeks said:
The xenophobes and their fellow travellers are queuing up to soothe their consciences, I see.Tykejohnno said:
Bang on - +1Alanbrooke said:
I'd vote leave tomorrow,what's there to be ashamed of ?AlastairMeeks said:
Well Vince Cable is dead right. Immigration, fuelled by campaigns that pandered to xenophobia, was what won it for Leave. Oddly it's now Leavers who try to evade the democratic responsibility of implementing Brexit in accordance with the way in which the victory was secured. It's pretty obvious that they're ashamed of what they colluded with.Alanbrooke said:
it's the remainer problem, they cant accept a majority of the people said the EU doesnt work for us.Fat_Steve said:Vince Cable on Brexit
'Many people voted for Brexit because they were fooled into a fear of “80m Turks coming to live in their village”, Vince Cable has said.'
Many, Vince? Most of the 52% ? And have you thought about what motivated the others?
It's an extraordinarily complacent and conceited comment.
What it suggests is that Vince Cable isn't willing to learn from the fact that 52% didn't want what was on offer. Which makes him look a bit old and moth-eaten, to me.
instead we have just a long whinge about how we're all going to die and the world will stop
they have learnt nothing from the experience and havent the courage to question what went wrong for them or put forward an alternative
If remainers couldnt put a positive case for immigration - and there is one if it is controlled - then that simply says your front men arent very good.
Intellectually outplayed by Nigel Farage - that;s you that is.
However you took a comfort blanket of calling everyone a xenophobe and ignored the consequences of uncontrolled immigrtion on housing, wages, public services and social cohesion. And as we have seen at the more recent setpieces of polling voters are more concerned with the hardships of life than name calling from the self righteous.0 -
Agree with every single word of that post.IanB2 said:
The problem the third party always faces is that on most big issues there are two distinctive stances at the extremes, and usually the main parties have positions on (or as close to as is generally acceptable) those sewn up. In the real world of course it is often more sensible to fashion a middle course between the extremes, and the LibDems do have reams of sensible but unmemorable policy on almost everything (and further, having campaigned from the extreme, something close to LibDem policy is often what the main parties end up implementing, once their ideas make contact with the world as it is). But this isn't any good at getting them noticed.CD13 said:I'm surprised that the LDs are happy to be a single issue party.
They aimed at the 48% and their main policy is ... we'll have another referendum because we didn't like the result last time, which begs the question ... what then? In 18 months time, and if they succeed, we'll go back on bended knees and accept any deal that Barmier and Juncker want. Is that what the 48% want?
It's an incoherent policy. The more stubborn the EU becomes, the less the electorate will accept their rule. .'Vote LD ... Because we are not worthy.' isn't a vote winner. Only the most fanatical Remainers think it is.
The opportunities for the LibDems tend to come along when both main parties adopt a similar position on an issue, leaving the other side unchampioned (Iraq being the obvious example), or where an issue is emerging or growing in importance and being more nimble they can stake out the ground first (for many years environmentalism was a good example). Brexit looked like an example of the former, that has so far not paid any divided, and should sensibly be broadened into internationalism as someone suggests downthread. Drugs policy is an example of the latter. The trouble with the latter is that adopting positions early rarely appeals to more than a small minority. And, by the time you are proved right, either everyone has forgotten that you were first, or cares more about something else.0 -
You can't do anything about the people who choose to agree with you either.AlastairMeeks said:
Aligning yourself with xenophobia, no matter what your motivation, is a moral calamity.Casino_Royale said:
NURSE!AlastairMeeks said:
In decades to come, voting Leave will be about as reputable as choosing to fight for the Confederacy.Alanbrooke said:
trip trap trip trap over the rickety bridge etc.AlastairMeeks said:
The xenophobes and their fellow travellers are queuing up to soothe their consciences, I see.Tykejohnno said:
Bang on - +1Alanbrooke said:
I'd vote leave tomorrow,what's there to be ashamed of ?AlastairMeeks said:
Well Vince Cable is dead right. Immigration, fuelled by campaigns that pandered to xenophobia, was what won it for Leave. Oddly it's now Leavers who try to evade the democratic responsibility of implementing Brexit in accordance with the way in which the victory was secured. It's pretty obvious that they're ashamed of what they colluded with.Alanbrooke said:
it's the remainer problem, they cant accept a majority of the people said the EU doesnt work for us.Fat_Steve said:Vince Cable on Brexit
'Many people voted for Brexit because they were fooled into a fear of “80m Turks coming to live in their village”, Vince Cable has said.'
Many, Vince? Most of the 52% ? And have you thought about what motivated the others?
It's an extraordinarily complacent and conceited comment.
What it suggests is that Vince Cable isn't willing to learn from the fact that 52% didn't want what was on offer. Which makes him look a bit old and moth-eaten, to me.
instead we have just a long whinge about how we're all going to die and the world will stop
they have learnt nothing from the experience and havent the courage to question what went wrong for them or put forward an alternative
If remainers couldnt put a positive case for immigration - and there is one if it is controlled - then that simply says your front men arent very good.
Intellectually outplayed by Nigel Farage - that;s you that is.
However you took a comfort blanket of calling everyone a xenophobe and ignored the consequences of uncontrolled immigrtion on housing, wages, public services and social cohesion. And as we have seen at the more recent setpieces of polling voters are more concerned with the hardships of life than name calling from the self righteous.0 -
It's the hallmark of the left to hate and despise opponents, rather than simply disagree with them. Opponents are not just wrong; they are evil.Sean_F said:
That's beyond bizarre.AlastairMeeks said:
If you're happy to align yourself with posters that precisely matched Nazi propaganda, that's your call.Alanbrooke said:
trip trap trip trap over the rickety bridge etc.AlastairMeeks said:
The xenophobes and their fellow travellers are queuing up to soothe their consciences, I see.Tykejohnno said:
Bang on - +1Alanbrooke said:
I'd vote leave tomorrow,what's there to be ashamed of ?AlastairMeeks said:
Well Vince Cable is dead right. Immigration, fuelled by campaigns that pandered to xenophobia, was what won it for Leave. Oddly it's now Leavers who try to evade the democratic responsibility of implementing Brexit in accordance with the way in which the victory was secured. It's pretty obvious that they're ashamed of what they colluded with.Alanbrooke said:
it's the remainer problem, they cant accept a majority of the people said the EU doesnt work for us.Fat_Steve said:Vince Cable on Brexit
'Many people voted for Brexit because they were fooled into a fear of “80m Turks coming to live in their village”, Vince Cable has said.'
Many, Vince? Most of the 52% ? And have you thought about what motivated the others?
It's an extraordinarily complacent and conceited comment.
What it suggests is that Vince Cable isn't willing to learn from the fact that 52% didn't want what was on offer. Which makes him look a bit old and moth-eaten, to me.
instead we have just a long whinge about how we're all going to die and the world will stop
they have learnt nothing from the experience and havent the courage to question what went wrong for them or put forward an alternative
If remainers couldnt put a positive case for immigration - and there is one if it is controlled - then that simply says your front men arent very good.
Intellectually outplayed by Nigel Farage - that;s you that is.
In decades to come, voting Leave will be about as reputable as choosing to fight for the Confederacy. Whatever the theoretical merits of states' rights, the reality of the motivations for the fight will irredeemably taint the cause and shame its advocates.
It is something of a giveaway.0 -
You don't realise how awful this sounds do you? People under 20 are often very ignorant too; does that mean what they think doesn't count in a democracy.Benpointer said:
People in their 40s sometimes are familiar with forweigners, sometimes not. People over 70 are often very ignorant. The only foreigner my father-in-law (a Somerset farmer) had ever met in his life was an Italian POW who worked on his father's farm in the war, and he was deeply anti-foreigner. Until... his wife had to go into care and most of the staff were immigrants. How his perceptions of foreigners improved once he actually got to know them as people!Sean_F said:
42 was the tipping point, above which, each age cohort favoured Brexit over Remain. People in their forties are familiar with foreigners.Roger said:
More an age thing. Schools today are mixed in every sort of way. The old don't like foreigners because in their formative years they hardly met any. Same reason rural areas produce more Leavers than the cities.
Next you'll be telling us that one awful side even had the audacity to come up with a slogan and put it on a BUS!!!!!0 -
My concern, too. The positive scenario is that he gets us some airtime on the economy and Brexit whilst working closely with Swinson, building her prominence and experience ready for her to take over in 2019.Sandpit said:
I think a great opportunity for the LDs will be on civil liberties, as Mrs May tries to propose banning encryption because terrorism. Someone needs to stand up to such proposals and sadly too many Conservatives will go along with it.IanB2 said:
The problem the third party always faces is that on most big issues there are two distinctive stances at the extremes, and usually the main parties have positions on (or as close to as is generally acceptable) those sewn up. In the real world of course it is often more sensible to fashion a middle course between the extremes, and the LibDems do have reams of sensible but unmemorable policy on almost everything (and further, having campaigned from the extreme, something close to LibDem policy is often what the main parties end up implementing, once their ideas make contact with the world as it is). But this isn't any good at getting them noticed.CD13 said:I'm surprised that the LDs are happy to be a single issue party.
is.
The opportunities for the LibDems tend to come along when both main parties adopt a similar position on an issue, leaving the other side unchampioned (Iraq being the obvious example), or where an issue is emerging or growing in importance and being more nimble they can stake out the ground first (for many years environmentalism was a good example). Brexit looked like an example of the former, that has so far not paid any divided, and should sensibly be broadened into internationalism as someone suggests downthread. Drugs policy is an example of the latter. The trouble with the latter is that adopting positions early rarely appeals to more than a small minority. And, by the time you are proved right, either everyone has forgotten that you were first, or cares more about something else.
A good use of a private members' bill might be to propose the decriminalisation of certain drugs, a la Portugal where a few years on it's shown to work well. I've always said that the current middle way drugs policy in the UK and US doesn't work, what works is either the Portugal/Netherlands approach or the Thailand/Singapore/UAE approach.
They do need to get off trying to overturn Brexit though, engage positively with the process instead of fighting the last battle. I'm not too sure that Vince Cable is the man for that though.
The risk to this strategy is that Vince's ego drives him to see himself as more than an interim leader. On the other hand, even very egoistical people can become good mentors and developers late in their career, once they accept that their personal achievements are mostly done. We can only hope.0 -
My dad worked in East London schools for decades and if you think the mix of nationalities, races and religions blend seamlessly you are even more of a guesser than I thought! African vs Eastern European tension is mahoosiveRoger said:
More an age thing. Schools today are mixed in every sort of way. The old don't like foreigners because in their formative years they hardly met any. Same reason rural areas produce more Leavers than the cities.
In ten years time this vote will not only seem calamitous it'll also seem shameful0 -
"When I was 18, I thought my father was insufferably ignorant. When I reached 21, I realised the old man had learned quite a lot."Mortimer said:
You don't realise how awful this sounds do you? People under 20 are often very ignorant too; does that mean what they think doesn't count in a democracy.Benpointer said:
People in their 40s sometimes are familiar with forweigners, sometimes not. People over 70 are often very ignorant. The only foreigner my father-in-law (a Somerset farmer) had ever met in his life was an Italian POW who worked on his father's farm in the war, and he was deeply anti-foreigner. Until... his wife had to go into care and most of the staff were immigrants. How his perceptions of foreigners improved once he actually got to know them as people!Sean_F said:
42 was the tipping point, above which, each age cohort favoured Brexit over Remain. People in their forties are familiar with foreigners.Roger said:
More an age thing. Schools today are mixed in every sort of way. The old don't like foreigners because in their formative years they hardly met any. Same reason rural areas produce more Leavers than the cities.
Next you'll be telling us that one awful side even had the audacity to come up with a slogan and put it on a BUS!!!!!0 -
It is Roger's pessimism about Brexit that reassures me Leaving was exactly the right thing to do. He ain't known as 'damus for nothing...isam said:
My dad worked in East London schools for decades and if you think the mix of nationalities, races and religions blend seamlessly you are even more of a guesser than I thought! African vs Eastern European tension is mahoosiveRoger said:
More an age thing. Schools today are mixed in every sort of way. The old don't like foreigners because in their formative years they hardly met any. Same reason rural areas produce more Leavers than the cities.
In ten years time this vote will not only seem calamitous it'll also seem shameful0 -
A thread for anyone under the illusion that Liam Fox is competent and honest:
https://twitter.com/emporersnewc/status/8884529756890726400 -
These are the same dimwits that thought immigrants leave their old nationality behind when they arrive in their new home. The whole problem w mass immigration is that they don't and we have communalism caused by segregation.Mortimer said:
You don't realise how awful this sounds do you? People under 20 are often very ignorant too; does that mean what they think doesn't count in a democracy.Benpointer said:
People in their 40s sometimes are familiar with forweigners, sometimes not. People over 70 are often very ignorant. The only foreigner my father-in-law (a Somerset farmer) had ever met in his life was an Italian POW who worked on his father's farm in the war, and he was deeply anti-foreigner. Until... his wife had to go into care and most of the staff were immigrants. How his perceptions of foreigners improved once he actually got to know them as people!Sean_F said:
42 was the tipping point, above which, each age cohort favoured Brexit over Remain. People in their forties are familiar with foreigners.Roger said:
More an age thing. Schools today are mixed in every sort of way. The old don't like foreigners because in their formative years they hardly met any. Same reason rural areas produce more Leavers than the cities.
Next you'll be telling us that one awful side even had the audacity to come up with a slogan and put it on a BUS!!!!!0 -
He can't be, since the existence of a federalising EU is an obstacle to a world government.freetochoose said:
Let's take this to its natural conclusion: are you proposing a world government?williamglenn said:
It is impossible to separate economics and defence from the general political structure. Mutual aid in the economic field and joint military defence must inevitably be accompanied step by step with a parallel policy of closer political unity.freetochoose said:
Oh yeah I forgot, if we leave the EU there'll be war.williamglenn said:
If the EU didn't exist we would be inventing it.freetochoose said:Explain it then, make a positive case FOR the EU
We shall only save ourselves from the perils which draw near by forgetting the hatreds of the past, by letting national rancours and revenges die, by progressively effacing frontiers and barriers which aggravate and congeal our divisions, and by rejoicing together in that glorious treasure of literature, of romance, of ethics, of thought and toleration belonging to all, which is the true inheritance of Europe, the expression of its genius and honour, but which by our quarrels, our follies, by our fearful wars and the cruel and awful deeds that spring from war and tyrants, we have almost cast away.
You're pathetic man.0 -
This seems to be saying that the LibDems should a priori decide to exist, then identify policy positions they can take that justify their existence. Isn't that exactly 180 degrees backwards? If they have no distinctive views arrived at rationally, they should just disband.IanB2 said:
The problem the third party always faces is that on most big issues there are two distinctive stances at the extremes, and usually the main parties have positions on (or as close to as is generally acceptable) those sewn up. In the real world of course it is often more sensible to fashion a middle course between the extremesCD13 said:I'm surprised that the LDs are happy to be a single issue party.
They aimed at the 48% and their main policy is ... we'll have another referendum because we didn't like the result last time, which begs the question ... what then? In 18 months time, and if they succeed, we'll go back on bended knees and accept any deal that Barmier and Juncker want. Is that what the 48% want?
It's an incoherent policy. The more stubborn the EU becomes, the less the electorate will accept their rule. .'Vote LD ... Because we are not worthy.' isn't a vote winner. Only the most fanatical Remainers think it is.
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Problems for Sessions:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/sessions-discussed-trump-campaign-related-matters-with-russian-ambassador-us-intelligence-intercepts-show/2017/07/21/3e704692-6e44-11e7-9c15-177740635e83_story.html?utm_term=.d6e6316bc2cb
So having initially said... I didn't meet Russians, then switched to - I didn't meet Russians to discuss the campaign, we now find out US intelligence intercepted the Russians account of the meeting which says they did discuss the campaign.
Apparently bookies have taken down markets on Session going this year. Trump is obviously pissed - but firing Sessions might make an enemy who knows too much?0 -
The truth is that as people get older they get more right-wing.
Anyone who thinks today's young voters will still have the same views in 30-40 years is mad.
This is the reason why the Tories and Labour will never "die". There will always be enough young voters to vote Labour. There will always be enough older voters to vote Conservative.
It's possible the Parties will split and be called something else but the essential fight between the forces of progressive politics and the forces of conservative politics is eternal.0 -
The difference is that the 1973 decision was implemented. Once we Leave, I expect that the Rejoin campaign will begin - and it should. Hopfully this time it will be honest about what EU membership actually means.Monksfield said:
No, just behaving in much the same way your headbangers did since 1974. Nothing wrong with opposition, challenge or most importantly scrutiny in a democracy Alanbrooke.Alanbrooke said:
you still dont get itScott_P said:
And the headbangers are still pushing no deal.AlastairMeeks said:The clock is ticking. At some point very soon you will need to choose between the wrong deal or no deal.
A year on, with all of the hurdles passed with ease, their opponents crushed and the clock ticking, it's curious to find that Brexiteers are still the angriest "winners" in history
these days YOU are the headbanger
Some of us just don't fancy Liam Fox's vision of the future.0 -
Let me guess, you see yourself in group 2?Benpointer said:
There's no point in arguing with some people AM. I increasingly conclude that there are two broad swathes of people:AlastairMeeks said:
I'm disgusted that people who have no interest in the problems that migration causes other than as a lever to secure Brexit are prepared to whip up xenophobia in order to secure that goal, using untruths and imagery designed to whip up racial tensions.JonnyJimmy said:
You're disgusted that there are a lot of people concerned by some of the effects of completely uncontrolled immigration from much poorer countries in the EU?AlastairMeeks said:
You glory in the xenophobic Brexit that you have helped to secure. I'm unsurprised you can't understand why it disgusts others.
Get help.
And I'm disgusted at the tortured way in which they now pretend that they didn't matter.
1. Selfish (don't want to pay taxes or help others, don't want public servants to get pay rises, don't want immigrants sharing their good fortune, don't see why we whould give foreign aid, don't like people who are 'not like us' etc.)
2. Generous (want to help others wherever possible, proud to pay taxes to support good public services, care about the disadvantaged in society and the world, want a world where everyone can live a happy life, not just 'us and ours', etc...)
Very hard to change people from one group to another.0 -
the joy of progressive politics is it's always something someone else should do never the proponentGIN1138 said:The truth is that as people get older they get more right-wing.
Anyone who thinks today's young voters will still have the same views in 30-40 years is mad.
This is the reason why the Tories and Labour will never "die". There will always be enough young voters to vote Labour. There will always be enough older voters to vote Conservative.
It's possible the Parties will split and be called something else but the essential fight between the forces of progressive politics and the forces of conservative politics is eternal.0 -
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In many ways the LEAVE vote was a direct result of the Great Recession. The Great Recession was a direct result of the banking crash. The first sign of the banking crash in the UK was the run on Northern Rock.Mortimer said:
It is Roger's pessimism about Brexit that reassures me Leaving was exactly the right thing to do. He ain't known as 'damus for nothing...isam said:
My dad worked in East London schools for decades and if you think the mix of nationalities, races and religions blend seamlessly you are even more of a guesser than I thought! African vs Eastern European tension is mahoosiveRoger said:
More an age thing. Schools today are mixed in every sort of way. The old don't like foreigners because in their formative years they hardly met any. Same reason rural areas produce more Leavers than the cities.
In ten years time this vote will not only seem calamitous it'll also seem shameful
Roger told us (on the Monday) that the run on Northern Rock would "all be forgotten about by Friday".
So what I'm saying is the LEAVE can be directly traced back to the event ten years ago that Roger told us would be all over within five days...
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No, because liberalism is clearly a distinctive philosophy, as is socialism and conservatism. But modern day politics, unlike that of two hundred years ago, revolves exclusively around policy; people aren't interested in philosophical debate. As sandypit says below, liberalism does direct towards some distinctive policy areas such as civil liberties, but on the mainstream issues it struggles to be distinctive as I said in my earlier post.Alice_Aforethought said:
This seems to be saying that the LibDems should a priori decide to exist, then identify policy positions they can take that justify their existence. Isn't that exactly 180 degrees backwards? If they have no distinctive views arrived at rationally, they should just disband.IanB2 said:
The problem the third party always faces is that on most big issues there are two distinctive stances at the extremes, and usually the main parties have positions on (or as close to as is generally acceptable) those sewn up. In the real world of course it is often more sensible to fashion a middle course between the extremesCD13 said:I'm surprised that the LDs are happy to be a single issue party.
They aimed at the 48% and their main policy is ... we'll have another referendum because we didn't like the result last time, which begs the question ... what then? In 18 months time, and if they succeed, we'll go back on bended knees and accept any deal that Barmier and Juncker want. Is that what the 48% want?
It's an incoherent policy. The more stubborn the EU becomes, the less the electorate will accept their rule. .'Vote LD ... Because we are not worthy.' isn't a vote winner. Only the most fanatical Remainers think it is.0 -
Though these sixteen people were at least living in a proper flat.another_richard said:
We're told that London is now a 'world city'.isam said:Behind every great fortune is a crime forgotten. Those who celebrate mass immigration and how London's economy prospers on the back of it, look away now
https://twitter.com/standardnews/status/888680013192613888
Of course most of the world consists of the third world.
So isn't it inevitable that 'world city' London increasingly has the attributes of a third world city.
There's a level of squalor even lower than this with the 'beds in sheds' aka suburban shanty towns.
The Burnt Oak area splits between the boroughs of Barnet and Brent. The populations of those two boroughs as per Wikipedia are:
Barnet
1991 300k
2001 315k
2011 356k
2016 386k
Brent
1991 249k
2001 263k
2011 311k
2016 328k
I doubt that those numbers include all the illegal immigrants living there either.
Does anyone think that either the extra housing or the extra provision of public services required for such a increase in population has been put in place ?0 -
They/we won't have the same views but I don't think all views will change.GIN1138 said:The truth is that as people get older they get more right-wing.
Anyone who thinks today's young voters will still have the same views in 30-40 years is mad.
I find it hard to believe that my generation will change our mind on gay rights for instance.0 -
Then a Rejoin vote will be easy to win, won't it?Roger said:
More an age thing. Schools today are mixed in every sort of way. The old don't like foreigners because in their formative years they hardly met any. Same reason rural areas produce more Leavers than the cities.
In ten years time this vote will not only seem calamitous it'll also seem shameful0 -
"Former Lib Dem MP". Can't have made much of a mark.Alanbrooke said:0 -
how would he know ? Is he in the negotiations ?Scott_P said:
Or is he just spinning shit becasue he has nothing better to do ?0 -
I would assume that's correct.rkrkrk said:
They/we won't have the same views but I don't think all views will change.GIN1138 said:The truth is that as people get older they get more right-wing.
Anyone who thinks today's young voters will still have the same views in 30-40 years is mad.
I find it hard to believe that my generation will change our mind on gay rights for instance.
It's interesting that the Baby Boomers have generally stayed in support of Wilson's social changes from the 60's while at the same time becoming more economically right wing.
So it's more on the economic side than the social side that people shift from left to right as they get older.0 -
I came across his name by accident a few months back, and had to look him up on WP to find that he was one of our former MPs, which for me as an active LibDem is telling. Unlike most of our MPs, he appears to have made very little impact even within the party.AndyJS said:0 -
Who Scott? Ah you get used to that. He does it all the time. But yes it seems like Alberto has caught the disease as well.Alanbrooke said:
how would he know ? Is he in the negotiations ?Scott_P said:
Or is he just spinning shit becasue he has nothing better to do ?0 -
The article starts "European Union officials have accused the UK".Alanbrooke said:
how would he know ? Is he in the negotiations ?Scott_P said:
Or is he just spinning shit becasue he has nothing better to do ?
Safe to ignore.0 -
Baby boomers have also become more critical of immigration and more eurosceptic over time. So opinion on some non-economic issues has shifted.GIN1138 said:
I would assume that's correct.rkrkrk said:
They/we won't have the same views but I don't think all views will change.GIN1138 said:The truth is that as people get older they get more right-wing.
Anyone who thinks today's young voters will still have the same views in 30-40 years is mad.
I find it hard to believe that my generation will change our mind on gay rights for instance.
It's interesting that the Baby Boomers have generally stayed in support of Wilson's social changes from the 60's while at the same time becoming more economically right wing.
So it's more on the economic side than the social side that people shift from left to right as they get older.0 -
It is a nonsense. What the EU is proposing is that an EU citizen in the UK should be able to move around within the UK, but a UK citizen in the EU can't move around within the EU.Alanbrooke said:
how would he know ? Is he in the negotiations ?Scott_P said:
Or is he just spinning shit becasue he has nothing better to do ?
It would be like us proposing that someone from the EU who lives in Leicester would be forbidden from moving to Edinburgh.-1 -
Did you get your results back yet Richard?Richard_Tyndall said:
Who Scott? Ah you get used to that. He does it all the time. But yes it seems like Alberto has caught the disease as well.Alanbrooke said:
how would he know ? Is he in the negotiations ?Scott_P said:
Or is he just spinning shit becasue he has nothing better to do ?0 -
Sorry, I have no idea what you just wrote.malcolmg said:
Sad tw**, you make think you are witty but it is by half.Alice_Aforethought said:
Well, obviously. Whatever deal emerges will be presented by the government as a triumph, by Labour as a disaster, by the SNP as nae guid fer Scawtlun, by the EU as a triumph for the EU and nobody will give a monkey's how it is presented by the LibDems, frankly, whoever they are posing as that week - homophobic right wingers, ex-Marxists, whatever.stodge said:
I think a lot will depend on what kind of Treaty comes out of the A50 process. I detect from the week's press outpourings it will contain more fudge than a Cornish sweet shop in high season and may well not stand up to a lot of scrutiny but will be presented as a triumph by both sides to their respective audiences.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Stodge, interesting comment.
I do wonder if this is a slight repeat of the We Must Stop This tendency that Blair and Gina Miller and so forth have had. By wasting their ammunition, money, media time etc on trying to deny a democratic result and decry it as unending woe, they're losing a one-off opportunity to try and channel the result in a way that they would see as better (namely, closer ties to the EU whilst still leaving).
If Blair had kept his Lisbon referendum promise, we wouldn't be invoking Article 50 because, in all likelihood, it wouldn't exist.
Vince may be in his element if and when it comes to a forensic dissection of the detail and he may well see the anomalies before others on the Conservative side in particular.
May's problem will be to try and prevent an unholy alliance of those who want a stronger break from Europe and those who want to keep a closer relationship. In trying to please both sides, she may well finish up pleasing neither and facing real problems in the Commons.
We already know what the reactions will be; what matters is the actual substance.
You are the only person (assuming, bigly, that you're not a 'bot) I've encountered who types in a Scotch brogue. It's just as unintelligible written down as it is shouted from a pool of urine in a shop doorway.
So off with ye, wee man, so to speak.0 -
Well immigration and the EU is of course intimately involved in the economy.Sean_F said:
Baby boomers have also become more critical of immigration and more eurosceptic over time. So opinion on some non-economic issues has shifted.GIN1138 said:
I would assume that's correct.rkrkrk said:
They/we won't have the same views but I don't think all views will change.GIN1138 said:The truth is that as people get older they get more right-wing.
Anyone who thinks today's young voters will still have the same views in 30-40 years is mad.
I find it hard to believe that my generation will change our mind on gay rights for instance.
It's interesting that the Baby Boomers have generally stayed in support of Wilson's social changes from the 60's while at the same time becoming more economically right wing.
So it's more on the economic side than the social side that people shift from left to right as they get older.0 -
The sixty and seventy year olds who voted Leave in 2016 were twenty and thirty year olds who voted Remain in 1975.Benpointer said:
People in their 40s sometimes are familiar with forweigners, sometimes not. People over 70 are often very ignorant. The only foreigner my father-in-law (a Somerset farmer) had ever met in his life was an Italian POW who worked on his father's farm in the war, and he was deeply anti-foreigner. Until... his wife had to go into care and most of the staff were immigrants. How his perceptions of foreigners improved once he actually got to know them as people!Sean_F said:
42 was the tipping point, above which, each age cohort favoured Brexit over Remain. People in their forties are familiar with foreigners.Roger said:
More an age thing. Schools today are mixed in every sort of way. The old don't like foreigners because in their formative years they hardly met any. Same reason rural areas produce more Leavers than the cities.0 -
Absolutely there are tensions between ethnic minorities that are beyond understanding without a very good understanding of 'third world' geography and history. It seems to be the British residents who are more tolerant of mixed communities if they live in one, and more fearful if they don't. But I don't sense the same level of attachment to ancient antipathies amongst the teenagers of first or second generation immigrant families mixing in modern British schools, which gives hope for the future.isam said:
My dad worked in East London schools for decades and if you think the mix of nationalities, races and religions blend seamlessly you are even more of a guesser than I thought! African vs Eastern European tension is mahoosiveRoger said:
More an age thing. Schools today are mixed in every sort of way. The old don't like foreigners because in their formative years they hardly met any. Same reason rural areas produce more Leavers than the cities.
In ten years time this vote will not only seem calamitous it'll also seem shameful0 -
the whole lot is wall to wall nonsense as PR departments are spinning the discussionsPhilip_Thompson said:
It is a nonsense. What the EU is proposing is that an EU citizen in the UK should be able to move around within the UK, but a UK citizen in the EU can't move around within the EU.Alanbrooke said:
how would he know ? Is he in the negotiations ?Scott_P said:
Or is he just spinning shit becasue he has nothing better to do ?
It would be like us proposing that someone from the EU who lives in Leicester would be forbidden from moving to Edinburgh.
believe nothing
better still dont bother posting it0 -
I think its important to draw a distinction between taking away rights people already have and not wanting to grant new ones.Sean_F said:
Baby boomers have also become more critical of immigration and more eurosceptic over time. So opinion on some non-economic issues has shifted.GIN1138 said:
I would assume that's correct.rkrkrk said:
They/we won't have the same views but I don't think all views will change.GIN1138 said:The truth is that as people get older they get more right-wing.
Anyone who thinks today's young voters will still have the same views in 30-40 years is mad.
I find it hard to believe that my generation will change our mind on gay rights for instance.
It's interesting that the Baby Boomers have generally stayed in support of Wilson's social changes from the 60's while at the same time becoming more economically right wing.
So it's more on the economic side than the social side that people shift from left to right as they get older.
So being more critical of immigration is about preventing new people not already here from coming over. Whereas you don't see many wanting to return to heavy discrimination etc against those already here.0 -
Both appear to be suggesting that people retain settled rights within the country they are living, but not elsewhere?Philip_Thompson said:
It is a nonsense. What the EU is proposing is that an EU citizen in the UK should be able to move around within the UK, but a UK citizen in the EU can't move around within the EU.Alanbrooke said:
how would he know ? Is he in the negotiations ?Scott_P said:
Or is he just spinning shit becasue he has nothing better to do ?
It would be like us proposing that someone from the EU who lives in Leicester would be forbidden from moving to Edinburgh.
As a practical proposition this surely makes some sense, since most of these rights are still granted and administered at national level.0 -
And we've got got another 20 months of people spinning for the EU and Scott "n" Paste "sharing" it here...Alanbrooke said:
the whole lot is wall to wall nonsense as PR departments are spinning the discussionsPhilip_Thompson said:
It is a nonsense. What the EU is proposing is that an EU citizen in the UK should be able to move around within the UK, but a UK citizen in the EU can't move around within the EU.Alanbrooke said:
how would he know ? Is he in the negotiations ?Scott_P said:
Or is he just spinning shit becasue he has nothing better to do ?
It would be like us proposing that someone from the EU who lives in Leicester would be forbidden from moving to Edinburgh.
believe nothing
better still dont bother posting it 0 -
It's also worth noting that the UK accepts that EU nationals will retain their right to vote in local elections, whereas the EU is making no such commitment in respect of UK nationals.Philip_Thompson said:
It is a nonsense. What the EU is proposing is that an EU citizen in the UK should be able to move around within the UK, but a UK citizen in the EU can't move around within the EU.Alanbrooke said:
how would he know ? Is he in the negotiations ?Scott_P said:
Or is he just spinning shit becasue he has nothing better to do ?
It would be like us proposing that someone from the EU who lives in Leicester would be forbidden from moving to Edinburgh.0 -
Yes - I think there's little doubt that as my generation accumulates wealth (hopefully!) we will become less keen on taxes, particularly those on wealth.GIN1138 said:
I would assume that's correct.rkrkrk said:
They/we won't have the same views but I don't think all views will change.GIN1138 said:The truth is that as people get older they get more right-wing.
Anyone who thinks today's young voters will still have the same views in 30-40 years is mad.
I find it hard to believe that my generation will change our mind on gay rights for instance.
It's interesting that the Baby Boomers have generally stayed in support of Wilson's social changes from the 60's while at the same time becoming more economically right wing.
So it's more on the economic side than the social side that people shift from left to right as they get older.
On immigration I'm not sure.
On gay rights, equality for women etc. I think it's fairly settled.
Presumably there will be new social issues where we become old-fashioned. Maybe animal rights?
I'm still in my 20s but already I feel a bit bewildered by some of the transgender discrimination politics stuff that I don't really understand.0 -
Just read something about The Canary, so thought I would pop across and have a look for first time in ages.
Embedded in the 'news', right on the front page, is a promotion for "Indian Ocean fly-cruise holidays".
Capitalism is finished. Vive la revolution comrades.0 -
Those Radio 4 interviews of leaver folk in the streets of Skegness broadcast last week went somewhat further than that!Philip_Thompson said:
I think its important to draw a distinction between taking away rights people already have and not wanting to grant new ones.Sean_F said:
Baby boomers have also become more critical of immigration and more eurosceptic over time. So opinion on some non-economic issues has shifted.GIN1138 said:
I would assume that's correct.rkrkrk said:
They/we won't have the same views but I don't think all views will change.GIN1138 said:The truth is that as people get older they get more right-wing.
Anyone who thinks today's young voters will still have the same views in 30-40 years is mad.
I find it hard to believe that my generation will change our mind on gay rights for instance.
It's interesting that the Baby Boomers have generally stayed in support of Wilson's social changes from the 60's while at the same time becoming more economically right wing.
So it's more on the economic side than the social side that people shift from left to right as they get older.
So being more critical of immigration is about preventing new people not already here from coming over. Whereas you don't see many wanting to return to heavy discrimination etc against those already here.0 -
I suppose we should look at the upside, when Scott and Billyboy Glenn are on here posting, it means teenage girls can sit on a bus without some strange man starting a discussion on freedom of movementGIN1138 said:
And we've got got another 20 months of people spinning for the EU and Scott "n" Paste sharing it here...Alanbrooke said:
the whole lot is wall to wall nonsense as PR departments are spinning the discussionsPhilip_Thompson said:
It is a nonsense. What the EU is proposing is that an EU citizen in the UK should be able to move around within the UK, but a UK citizen in the EU can't move around within the EU.Alanbrooke said:
how would he know ? Is he in the negotiations ?Scott_P said:
Or is he just spinning shit becasue he has nothing better to do ?
It would be like us proposing that someone from the EU who lives in Leicester would be forbidden from moving to Edinburgh.
believe nothing
better still dont bother posting it0 -
So it's an archaic pressure group kind of thing?IanB2 said:
No, because liberalism is clearly a distinctive philosophy, as is socialism and conservatism. But modern day politics, unlike that of two hundred years ago, revolves exclusively around policy; people aren't interested in philosophical debate. As sandypit says below, liberalism does direct towards some distinctive policy areas such as civil liberties, but on the mainstream issues it struggles to be distinctive as I said in my earlier post.Alice_Aforethought said:
This seems to be saying that the LibDems should a priori decide to exist, then identify policy positions they can take that justify their existence. Isn't that exactly 180 degrees backwards? If they have no distinctive views arrived at rationally, they should just disband.IanB2 said:
The problem the third party always faces is that on most big issues there are two distinctive stances at the extremes, and usually the main parties have positions on (or as close to as is generally acceptable) those sewn up. In the real world of course it is often more sensible to fashion a middle course between the extremesCD13 said:I'm surprised that the LDs are happy to be a single issue party.
They aimed at the 48% and their main policy is ... we'll have another referendum because we didn't like the result last time, which begs the question ... what then? In 18 months time, and if they succeed, we'll go back on bended knees and accept any deal that Barmier and Juncker want. Is that what the 48% want?
It's an incoherent policy. The more stubborn the EU becomes, the less the electorate will accept their rule. .'Vote LD ... Because we are not worthy.' isn't a vote winner. Only the most fanatical Remainers think it is.0 -
To the extent that that's true, it mainly shows how successful the 'big lie' of the Eurosceptic movement has been. Namely that people were told there was no politics involved and it was 'just' about trade.another_richard said:
The sixty and seventy year olds who voted Leave in 2016 were twenty and thirty year olds who voted Remain in 1975.Benpointer said:
People in their 40s sometimes are familiar with forweigners, sometimes not. People over 70 are often very ignorant. The only foreigner my father-in-law (a Somerset farmer) had ever met in his life was an Italian POW who worked on his father's farm in the war, and he was deeply anti-foreigner. Until... his wife had to go into care and most of the staff were immigrants. How his perceptions of foreigners improved once he actually got to know them as people!Sean_F said:
42 was the tipping point, above which, each age cohort favoured Brexit over Remain. People in their forties are familiar with foreigners.Roger said:
More an age thing. Schools today are mixed in every sort of way. The old don't like foreigners because in their formative years they hardly met any. Same reason rural areas produce more Leavers than the cities.0 -
I'm off out before the rain starts but before I go riddle me this:
How many of the kids shouting " **** the Tories " with Jon Snow at Glasto this year will be voting for the Tories (or whatever Party the Tories have evolved into) in 2057? 0 -
Except the ones who become suicide bombers or join ISISIanB2 said:
Absolutely there are tensions between ethnic minorities that are beyond understanding without a very good understanding of 'third world' geography and history. It seems to be the British residents who are more tolerant of mixed communities if they live in one, and more fearful if they don't. But I don't sense the same level of attachment to ancient antipathies amongst the teenagers of first or second generation immigrant families mixing in modern British schools, which gives hope for the future.isam said:
My dad worked in East London schools for decades and if you think the mix of nationalities, races and religions blend seamlessly you are even more of a guesser than I thought! African vs Eastern European tension is mahoosiveRoger said:
More an age thing. Schools today are mixed in every sort of way. The old don't like foreigners because in their formative years they hardly met any. Same reason rural areas produce more Leavers than the cities.
In ten years time this vote will not only seem calamitous it'll also seem shameful0 -
If there are indeed any 2 groups, they aren't these. They are group A that thinks there is a group 1 and 2, they're in group 2 and they hate and loathe group 2 because its members are less virtuous; and then there's group B, that disagrees with A.ThreeQuidder said:
Let me guess, you see yourself in group 2?Benpointer said:
There's no point in arguing with some people AM. I increasingly conclude that there are two broad swathes of people:AlastairMeeks said:
I'm disgusted that people who have no interest in the problems that migration causes other than as a lever to secure Brexit are prepared to whip up xenophobia in order to secure that goal, using untruths and imagery designed to whip up racial tensions.JonnyJimmy said:
You're disgusted that there are a lot of people concerned by some of the effects of completely uncontrolled immigration from much poorer countries in the EU?AlastairMeeks said:
You glory in the xenophobic Brexit that you have helped to secure. I'm unsurprised you can't understand why it disgusts others.
Get help.
And I'm disgusted at the tortured way in which they now pretend that they didn't matter.
1. Selfish (don't want to pay taxes or help others, don't want public servants to get pay rises, don't want immigrants sharing their good fortune, don't see why we whould give foreign aid, don't like people who are 'not like us' etc.)
2. Generous (want to help others wherever possible, proud to pay taxes to support good public services, care about the disadvantaged in society and the world, want a world where everyone can live a happy life, not just 'us and ours', etc...)
Very hard to change people from one group to another.0 -
OTOH, older people tend to have more liberal attitudes towards freedom of expression than younger people do.rkrkrk said:
Yes - I think there's little doubt that as my generation accumulates wealth (hopefully!) we will become less keen on taxes, particularly those on wealth.GIN1138 said:
I would assume that's correct.rkrkrk said:
They/we won't have the same views but I don't think all views will change.GIN1138 said:The truth is that as people get older they get more right-wing.
Anyone who thinks today's young voters will still have the same views in 30-40 years is mad.
I find it hard to believe that my generation will change our mind on gay rights for instance.
It's interesting that the Baby Boomers have generally stayed in support of Wilson's social changes from the 60's while at the same time becoming more economically right wing.
So it's more on the economic side than the social side that people shift from left to right as they get older.
On immigration I'm not sure.
On gay rights, equality for women etc. I think it's fairly settled.
Presumably there will be new social issues where we become old-fashioned. Maybe animal rights?
I'm still in my 20s but already I feel a bit bewildered by some of the transgender discrimination politics stuff that I don't really understand.0 -
I'll riddle you one better, at what age does Southam Observer start voting blue ? :-)GIN1138 said:I'm off out before the rain starts but before I go riddle me this:
How many of the kids shouting " **** the Tories " with Jon Snow at Glasto this year will be voting for the Tories (or whatever Party the Tories have evolved into) in 2057?0 -
Have smartphones not reached your part of the world yet?Alanbrooke said:
I suppose we should look at the upside, when Scott and Billyboy Glenn are on here posting, it means teenage girls can sit on a bus without some strange man starting a discussion on freedom of movementGIN1138 said:
And we've got got another 20 months of people spinning for the EU and Scott "n" Paste sharing it here...Alanbrooke said:
the whole lot is wall to wall nonsense as PR departments are spinning the discussionsPhilip_Thompson said:
It is a nonsense. What the EU is proposing is that an EU citizen in the UK should be able to move around within the UK, but a UK citizen in the EU can't move around within the EU.Alanbrooke said:
how would he know ? Is he in the negotiations ?Scott_P said:
Or is he just spinning shit becasue he has nothing better to do ?
It would be like us proposing that someone from the EU who lives in Leicester would be forbidden from moving to Edinburgh.
believe nothing
better still dont bother posting it0 -
I'm afraid the academic evidence is very much against you on this one. Exporting "your best" seems to boost per capita GDP over medium term time periods.Alanbrooke said:weve only seen the first part of the story
the baltic states have seen drastic population reduction
at some point the demographics of exporting your best and most able will catch them up
Take Ireland: it had horrendous net migration from the late 1940s to the mid 1980s. That should have stunted its growth potential. Instead, it was under any measure the best performing Western European economy between the mid 80s and now.
In the Baltics, Estonia had the biggest exodus of skilled employees in the post Soviet era. Compared to Lithuania, it saw more than twice the proportion of its population seek work abroad. Yet, the number of employed people in Estonia has grown at 3x the rate of Lithuania since 2004, and wages and GDP per head have risen similarly.
If the brightest people leaving stunts growth, Lithuania should have outperformed Estonia. Instead, Estonia has kicked the living daylights out of Lithuania.
Why is that?
I think the biggest reason is that a large number of emigrants return home. And when they return home they take the skills they learnt abroad with them. Estonia might have exported bright, young people; but it got back a significant number of bright, young, English speaking, commercially minded people.0 -
So an even better parable than I thought though I imagine the brave involvement of the Scots had to be left out through time constraints. An interesting story and sounds like an interesting play. If I'd been in Glasgow I'd have gone to see it (and La Cage Aux folles which I see is also on).Theuniondivvie said:
Cough.Roger said:
"Pro-Brexit allegory"? I described it as a parable for Brexit. A completely shambolic exit from Europe dreamed up by people without a clue. More than a smattering of xenophobia when the ignorant squaddies tried to lighten the boat by attacking the foreigner and the only military heroes being the French who manned the barricades when the British were in abject retreat.
As a film though it was brilliant. A masterclass in film making.
https://tinyurl.com/yd4tfwfj
This is a play wot a friend wrote on the subject.
https://tinyurl.com/y8cfxyah
I don't know how accurate the film was. It was pleasantly free of heroics (though one or two on here seem to have found something in the soundtrack to get them on their feet) The film made no points just the story of a completely shambolic retreat from France by some very frightened foot soldiers short of equiptment back up or anything else for that matter. It was the realism and lack of sentimentaity that made it exceptional0 -
while theyre called smartphones that doesnt transfer any attributes to the userwilliamglenn said:
Have smartphones not reached your part of the world yet?Alanbrooke said:
I suppose we should look at the upside, when Scott and Billyboy Glenn are on here posting, it means teenage girls can sit on a bus without some strange man starting a discussion on freedom of movementGIN1138 said:
And we've got got another 20 months of people spinning for the EU and Scott "n" Paste sharing it here...Alanbrooke said:
the whole lot is wall to wall nonsense as PR departments are spinning the discussionsPhilip_Thompson said:
It is a nonsense. What the EU is proposing is that an EU citizen in the UK should be able to move around within the UK, but a UK citizen in the EU can't move around within the EU.Alanbrooke said:
how would he know ? Is he in the negotiations ?Scott_P said:
Or is he just spinning shit becasue he has nothing better to do ?
It would be like us proposing that someone from the EU who lives in Leicester would be forbidden from moving to Edinburgh.
believe nothing
better still dont bother posting it0 -
Every ethnicity of teenagers has its rebels and misfits. The tragedy for young Muslims is that there are people who prey on and misdirect such emotions for very evil ends.isam said:
Except the ones who become suicide bombers or join ISISIanB2 said:
Absolutely there are tensions between ethnic minorities that are beyond understanding without a very good understanding of 'third world' geography and history. It seems to be the British residents who are more tolerant of mixed communities if they live in one, and more fearful if they don't. But I don't sense the same level of attachment to ancient antipathies amongst the teenagers of first or second generation immigrant families mixing in modern British schools, which gives hope for the future.isam said:
My dad worked in East London schools for decades and if you think the mix of nationalities, races and religions blend seamlessly you are even more of a guesser than I thought! African vs Eastern European tension is mahoosiveRoger said:
More an age thing. Schools today are mixed in every sort of way. The old don't like foreigners because in their formative years they hardly met any. Same reason rural areas produce more Leavers than the cities.
In ten years time this vote will not only seem calamitous it'll also seem shameful0 -
The Parable of the Just Pharisee neatly skewers people who are convinced of their own moral superiority.Alice_Aforethought said:
If there are indeed any 2 groups, they aren't these. They are group A that thinks there is a group 1 and 2, they're in group 2 and they hate and loathe group 2 because its members are less virtuous; and then there's group B, that disagrees with A.ThreeQuidder said:
Let me guess, you see yourself in group 2?Benpointer said:
There's no point in arguing with some people AM. I increasingly conclude that there are two broad swathes of people:AlastairMeeks said:
I'm disgusted that people who have no interest in the problems that migration causes other than as a lever to secure Brexit are prepared to whip up xenophobia in order to secure that goal, using untruths and imagery designed to whip up racial tensions.JonnyJimmy said:
You're disgusted that there are a lot of people concerned by some of the effects of completely uncontrolled immigration from much poorer countries in the EU?AlastairMeeks said:
You glory in the xenophobic Brexit that you have helped to secure. I'm unsurprised you can't understand why it disgusts others.
Get help.
And I'm disgusted at the tortured way in which they now pretend that they didn't matter.
1. Selfish (don't want to pay taxes or help others, don't want public servants to get pay rises, don't want immigrants sharing their good fortune, don't see why we whould give foreign aid, don't like people who are 'not like us' etc.)
2. Generous (want to help others wherever possible, proud to pay taxes to support good public services, care about the disadvantaged in society and the world, want a world where everyone can live a happy life, not just 'us and ours', etc...)
Very hard to change people from one group to another.0 -
I see that government debt has now reached 87.4% of GDP:
https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/governmentpublicsectorandtaxes/publicsectorfinance/timeseries/hf6x/pusf
George Osborne forecast a maximum of 70% in his 2010 Budget:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/budget/7846849/Budget-2010-Full-text-of-George-Osbornes-statement.html0 -
Could some of the 3 million returning home feed into your virtuous circle as European consumers start to deploy some of their savings? The future is bright for Europe.rcs1000 said:I think the biggest reason is that a large number of emigrants return home. And when they return home they take the skills they learnt abroad with them. Estonia might have exported bright, young people; but it got back a significant number of bright, young, English speaking, commercially minded people.
0 -
I don't know that the evidence bears that out. Yes the telegraph loves to run stories about how young people are shutting down free speech but it's normally not that simple and often not representative of youth opinion.Sean_F said:
OTOH, older people tend to have more liberal attitudes towards freedom of expression than younger people do.rkrkrk said:
Yes - I think there's little doubt that as my generation accumulates wealth (hopefully!) we will become less keen on taxes, particularly those on wealth.GIN1138 said:
I would assume that's correct.rkrkrk said:
They/we won't have the same views but I don't think all views will change.GIN1138 said:The truth is that as people get older they get more right-wing.
Anyone who thinks today's young voters will still have the same views in 30-40 years is mad.
I find it hard to believe that my generation will change our mind on gay rights for instance.
It's interesting that the Baby Boomers have generally stayed in support of Wilson's social changes from the 60's while at the same time becoming more economically right wing.
So it's more on the economic side than the social side that people shift from left to right as they get older.
On immigration I'm not sure.
On gay rights, equality for women etc. I think it's fairly settled.
Presumably there will be new social issues where we become old-fashioned. Maybe animal rights?
I'm still in my 20s but already I feel a bit bewildered by some of the transgender discrimination politics stuff that I don't really understand.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/bowmanmarsico/2017/06/05/polls-on-political-correctness/amp/0 -
Your Petainiste / Vichy sympathies are notorious. How's the weather in Villefranche ?MonikerDiCanio said:
"Pro-Brexit allegory"? I described it as a parable for Brexit. A completely shambolic exit from Europe dreamed up by people without a clue. More than a smattering of xenophobia when the ignorant squaddies tried to lighten the boat by attacking the foreigner and the only military heroes being the French who manned the barricades when the British were in abject retreat.Roger said:rel="MonikerDiCanio">
Glad you enjoyed Nolan's pro-Brexit allegory " Dunkirk ". Me too.Roger said:
A good post if a strange one from someone who voted 'Leave'. As your vote proves there must be dozens of reasons why people voted 'Leave'. If the 'Heinz 57' applied to 'Leaving' why wouldn't it also apply to our rejoining? Do you think it would be healthy to continue this into the next millenium?stodge said:
Okay, let's pick apart THIS incoherent nonsense.CD13 said:I'm surprised that the LDs are happy to be a single issue party.
It's an incoherent policy. The more stubborn the EU becomes, the less the electorate will accept their rule. .'Vote LD ... Because we are not worthy.' isn't a vote winner. Only the most fanatical Remainers think it is.
Absurd.
I do agree rejecting the deal cannot imply wanting to stay in the EU but nor should it implym wanting to crash out of the EU without an agreement. We should be trying to get the best possible agreement for the country as a whole not the Conservative party in particular.
Nobody is suggesting going back to the EU "on bended knees" either. It's perfectly credible for a Party to campaign to want to re-join the EU but nobody is saying we would re-join on the EU's terms. It would be a negotiated re-entry (ooer).
The LDs can't influence how the EU behaves. If it is a deliberate British tactic to make the EU look stubborn, then May and Davis ought to be honest and say so.
Perhaps you are blindly prepared to accept any old guff May throws at you, perhaps you want us to crash out of the EU without any agreement at all.
I want something different and better.
The only solution is to ask the EU to delay our leaving for say five years. The public will have had a glimpse of the chaos of this one and will have had enough time and debate to focus on what changing our governance really means. The pros and cons could be decided amongst ourselves without the pressure of time.
As a film though it was brilliant. A masterclass in film making.
As is your pithy sense of humour! I'm in England. Crap!0 -
Ireland was in the doldrums up until the mid 1980s when some serious structural reform took place.. It also had a dempgraphic tidal wave it had been riding since the beginning of the last century. It was able to expand in the nineties becuse it still had the highest birth rate in western Europe. By allegory 1979 the year of the Popes visit was a bumper year for births. All those kids came of age just in time for the celtic tiger.rcs1000 said:
I'm afraid the academic evidence is very much against you on this one. Exporting "your best" seems to boost per capita GDP over medium term time periods.Alanbrooke said:weve only seen the first part of the story
the baltic states have seen drastic population reduction
at some point the demographics of exporting your best and most able will catch them up
Take Ireland: it had horrendous net migration from the late 1940s to the mid 1980s. That should have stunted its growth potential. Instead, it was under any measure the best performing Western European economy between the mid 80s and now.
In the Baltics, Estonia had the biggest exodus of skilled employees in the post Soviet era. Compared to Lithuania, it saw more than twice the proportion of its population seek work abroad. Yet, the number of employed people in Estonia has grown at 3x the rate of Lithuania since 2004, and wages and GDP per head have risen similarly.
If the brightest people leaving stunts growth, Lithuania should have outperformed Estonia. Instead, Estonia has kicked the living daylights out of Lithuania.
Why is that?
I think the biggest reason is that a large number of emigrants return home. And when they return home they take the skills they learnt abroad with them. Estonia might have exported bright, young people; but it got back a significant number of bright, young, English speaking, commercially minded people.
In the baltics the issue imo is that the age pyramid hasnt really hit the economy yet. The complaints of ageing workforce and who's going to look after the old are still to hit home.0 -
Looking at the OBR report on Osborne's first Budget it forecast that the UK's balance of payments deficit would be near zero for 2014 to 2016:another_richard said:I see that government debt has now reached 87.4% of GDP:
https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/governmentpublicsectorandtaxes/publicsectorfinance/timeseries/hf6x/pusf
George Osborne forecast a maximum of 70% in his 2010 Budget:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/budget/7846849/Budget-2010-Full-text-of-George-Osbornes-statement.html
http://budgetresponsibility.org.uk/docs/junebudget_annexc.pdf
Instead it turned out to be £250bn:
https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nationalaccounts/balanceofpayments/timeseries/hbop/pnbp
Has there ever been a bigger subsidy than that which George Osborne gave to imported tat manufacturers and foreign hoteliers ?0 -
I'm going to see it on Thursday, looking forward to it.Roger said:
So an even better parable than I thought though I imagine the brave involvement of the Scots had to be left out through time constraints. An interesting story and sounds like an interesting play. If I'd been in Glasgow I'd have gone to see it (and La Cage Aux folles which I see is also on).Theuniondivvie said:
Cough.Roger said:
"Pro-Brexit allegory"? I described it as a parable for Brexit. A completely shambolic exit from Europe dreamed up by people without a clue. More than a smattering of xenophobia when the ignorant squaddies tried to lighten the boat by attacking the foreigner and the only military heroes being the French who manned the barricades when the British were in abject retreat.
As a film though it was brilliant. A masterclass in film making.
https://tinyurl.com/yd4tfwfj
This is a play wot a friend wrote on the subject.
https://tinyurl.com/y8cfxyah
I don't know how accurate the film was. It was pleasantly free of heroics (though one or two on here seem to have found something in the soundtrack to get them on their feet) The film made no points just the story of a completely shambolic retreat from France by some very frightened foot soldiers short of equiptment back up or anything else for that matter. It was the realism and lack of sentimentaity that made it exceptional0 -
You odious Little Englander clown, your pathetic attempt at racism was shite. It that clear enough for you, you cretinous half witted dullard.Alice_Aforethought said:
Sorry, I have no idea what you just wrote.malcolmg said:
Sad tw**, you make think you are witty but it is by half.Alice_Aforethought said:
Well, obviously. Whatever deal emerges will be presented by the government as a triumph, by Labour as a disaster, by the SNP as nae guid fer Scawtlun, by the EU as a triumph for the EU and nobody will give a monkey's how it is presented by the LibDems, frankly, whoever they are posing as that week - homophobic right wingers, ex-Marxists, whatever.stodge said:
I think a lot will depend on what kind of Treaty comes out of the A50 process. I detect from the week's press outpourings it will contain more fudge than a Cornish sweet shop in high season and may well not stand up to a lot of scrutiny but will be presented as a triumph by both sides to their respective audiences.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Stodge, interesting comment.
I do wonder if this is a slight repeat of the We Must Stop This tendency that Blair and Gina Miller and so forth have had. By wasting their ammunition, money, media time etc on trying to deny a democratic result and decry it as unending woe, they're losing a one-off opportunity to try and channel the result in a way that they would see as better (namely, closer ties to the EU whilst still leaving).
If Blair had kept his Lisbon referendum promise, we wouldn't be invoking Article 50 because, in all likelihood, it wouldn't exist.
Vince may be in his element if and when it comes to a forensic dissection of the detail and he may well see the anomalies before others on the Conservative side in particular.
May's problem will be to try and prevent an unholy alliance of those who want a stronger break from Europe and those who want to keep a closer relationship. In trying to please both sides, she may well finish up pleasing neither and facing real problems in the Commons.
We already know what the reactions will be; what matters is the actual substance.
You are the only person (assuming, bigly, that you're not a 'bot) I've encountered who types in a Scotch brogue. It's just as unintelligible written down as it is shouted from a pool of urine in a shop doorway.
So off with ye, wee man, so to speak.
0 -
Kenneth Brannagh part was all sentimentality and stiff upper lip , but that was the only part of the film that was.Roger said:
So an even better parable than I thought though I imagine the brave involvement of the Scots had to be left out through time constraints. An interesting story and sounds like an interesting play. If I'd been in Glasgow I'd have gone to see it (and La Cage Aux folles which I see is also on).Theuniondivvie said:
Cough.Roger said:
"Pro-Brexit allegory"? I described it as a parable for Brexit. A completely shambolic exit from Europe dreamed up by people without a clue. More than a smattering of xenophobia when the ignorant squaddies tried to lighten the boat by attacking the foreigner and the only military heroes being the French who manned the barricades when the British were in abject retreat.
As a film though it was brilliant. A masterclass in film making.
https://tinyurl.com/yd4tfwfj
This is a play wot a friend wrote on the subject.
https://tinyurl.com/y8cfxyah
I don't know how accurate the film was. It was pleasantly free of heroics (though one or two on here seem to have found something in the soundtrack to get them on their feet) The film made no points just the story of a completely shambolic retreat from France by some very frightened foot soldiers short of equiptment back up or anything else for that matter. It was the realism and lack of sentimentaity that made it exceptional0 -
EU youth continues to dream of escape to the UK, US, Australia, New Zealand and Canada. Fact vs your fantasy.williamglenn said:
Could some of the 3 million returning home feed into your virtuous circle as European consumers start to deploy some of their savings? The future is bright for Europe.rcs1000 said:I think the biggest reason is that a large number of emigrants return home. And when they return home they take the skills they learnt abroad with them. Estonia might have exported bright, young people; but it got back a significant number of bright, young, English speaking, commercially minded people.
0 -
Come on, chaps, let's not fall out.
By coincidence, I'm almost at the part in Edward I's biography where he starts being a dick to Scotland.0 -
People weren't just wandering around with big tumours they hadn't noticed were they?JosiasJessop said:
I think that's utterly and totally wrong. IMO (and I don't have data to back this up, but I doubt you have to data to back up your assertions) medical advances are allowing us to diagnose conditions earlier. In fact, when routine personalised lifetime biometrics come in (which I expect them to do within a decade) many conditions will be picked up almost instantaneously.Luckyguy1983 said:We're living less long because we're unhealthy. Diseases like cancer are hitting us sooner than ever before. This seems to have overtaken the opposing trend of medical advances helping us dodge death for longer.
This will put a fair bit of pressure on health services; not just from false positives, but from required treatment (or advice) for conditions that would have been left undiagnosed before.0 -
That's also dependent upon the migrant thinking there is something worth returning to in their country of origin.rcs1000 said:
I'm afraid the academic evidence is very much against you on this one. Exporting "your best" seems to boost per capita GDP over medium term time periods.Alanbrooke said:weve only seen the first part of the story
the baltic states have seen drastic population reduction
at some point the demographics of exporting your best and most able will catch them up
Take Ireland: it had horrendous net migration from the late 1940s to the mid 1980s. That should have stunted its growth potential. Instead, it was under any measure the best performing Western European economy between the mid 80s and now.
In the Baltics, Estonia had the biggest exodus of skilled employees in the post Soviet era. Compared to Lithuania, it saw more than twice the proportion of its population seek work abroad. Yet, the number of employed people in Estonia has grown at 3x the rate of Lithuania since 2004, and wages and GDP per head have risen similarly.
If the brightest people leaving stunts growth, Lithuania should have outperformed Estonia. Instead, Estonia has kicked the living daylights out of Lithuania.
Why is that?
I think the biggest reason is that a large number of emigrants return home. And when they return home they take the skills they learnt abroad with them. Estonia might have exported bright, young people; but it got back a significant number of bright, young, English speaking, commercially minded people.
If the skilled Estonian emigrant thinks they can return home and become rich then they might.
Whereas the skilled Lithuanian emigrant might think that vegetable picking in Lincolnshire is still a better lifestyle to anything they might achieve if they return to Lithuania.0 -
Spoiler. Donaldson's ( your ) boys let the enemy get away.Theuniondivvie said:
I'm going to see it on Thursday, looking forward to it.Roger said:
So an even better parable than I thought though I imagine the brave involvement of the Scots had to be left out through time constraints. An interesting story and sounds like an interesting play. If I'd been in Glasgow I'd have gone to see it (and La Cage Aux folles which I see is also on).Theuniondivvie said:
Cough.Roger said:
"Pro-Brexit allegory"? I described it as a parable for Brexit. A completely shambolic exit from Europe dreamed up by people without a clue. More than a smattering of xenophobia when the ignorant squaddies tried to lighten the boat by attacking the foreigner and the only military heroes being the French who manned the barricades when the British were in abject retreat.
As a film though it was brilliant. A masterclass in film making.
https://tinyurl.com/yd4tfwfj
This is a play wot a friend wrote on the subject.
https://tinyurl.com/y8cfxyah
I don't know how accurate the film was. It was pleasantly free of heroics (though one or two on here seem to have found something in the soundtrack to get them on their feet) The film made no points just the story of a completely shambolic retreat from France by some very frightened foot soldiers short of equiptment back up or anything else for that matter. It was the realism and lack of sentimentaity that made it exceptional0 -
Has he upset you Malc?malcolmg said:
You odious Little Englander clown, your pathetic attempt at racism was shite. It that clear enough for you, you cretinous half witted dullard.Alice_Aforethought said:
Sorry, I have no idea what you just wrote.malcolmg said:
Sad tw**, you make think you are witty but it is by half.Alice_Aforethought said:
Well, obviously. Whatever deal emerges will be presented by the government as a triumph, by Labour as a disaster, by the SNP as nae guid fer Scawtlun, by the EU as a triumph for the EU and nobody will give a monkey's how it is presented by the LibDems, frankly, whoever they are posing as that week - homophobic right wingers, ex-Marxists, whatever.stodge said:
I think a lot will depend on what kind of Treaty comes out of the A50 process. I detect from the week's press outpourings it will contain more fudge than a Cornish sweet shop in high season and may well not stand up to a lot of scrutiny but will be presented as a triumph by both sides to their respective audiences.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Stodge, interesting comment.
I do wonder if this is a slight repeat of the We Must Stop This tendency that Blair and Gina Miller and so forth have had. By wasting their ammunition, money, media time etc on trying to deny a democratic result and decry it as unending woe, they're losing a one-off opportunity to try and channel the result in a way that they would see as better (namely, closer ties to the EU whilst still leaving).
If Blair had kept his Lisbon referendum promise, we wouldn't be invoking Article 50 because, in all likelihood, it wouldn't exist.
Vince may be in his element if and when it comes to a forensic dissection of the detail and he may well see the anomalies before others on the Conservative side in particular.
May's problem will be to try and prevent an unholy alliance of those who want a stronger break from Europe and those who want to keep a closer relationship. In trying to please both sides, she may well finish up pleasing neither and facing real problems in the Commons.
We already know what the reactions will be; what matters is the actual substance.
You are the only person (assuming, bigly, that you're not a 'bot) I've encountered who types in a Scotch brogue. It's just as unintelligible written down as it is shouted from a pool of urine in a shop doorway.
So off with ye, wee man, so to speak.0 -
I think he was one of the youngest MPs elected in 2001.IanB2 said:
I came across his name by accident a few months back, and had to look him up on WP to find that he was one of our former MPs, which for me as an active LibDem is telling. Unlike most of our MPs, he appears to have made very little impact even within the party.AndyJS said:0 -
rcs1000 - I think they are emptying their prisons, looking at reports of crime in the newspapers. The Irish Republic had that policy in the 60's, a jail sentence in Ireland or a ticket to England was the choice.0
-
I was merely refuting the suggestion that people over 40 understand foreigners in a way that those under don't. The example was just an anecdote.Mortimer said:
You don't realise how awful this sounds do you? People under 20 are often very ignorant too; does that mean what they think doesn't count in a democracy.Benpointer said:
People in their 40s sometimes are familiar with forweigners, sometimes not. People over 70 are often very ignorant. The only foreigner my father-in-law (a Somerset farmer) had ever met in his life was an Italian POW who worked on his father's farm in the war, and he was deeply anti-foreigner. Until... his wife had to go into care and most of the staff were immigrants. How his perceptions of foreigners improved once he actually got to know them as people!Sean_F said:
42 was the tipping point, above which, each age cohort favoured Brexit over Remain. People in their forties are familiar with foreigners.Roger said:
More an age thing. Schools today are mixed in every sort of way. The old don't like foreigners because in their formative years they hardly met any. Same reason rural areas produce more Leavers than the cities.
Next you'll be telling us that one awful side even had the audacity to come up with a slogan and put it on a BUS!!!!!0 -
A suicidal and unnecessary encouragement of crime. The Irish seldom need incentives to abandon their island.PAW said:rcs1000 - I think they are emptying their prisons, looking at reports of crime in the newspapers. The Irish Republic had that policy in the 60's, a jail sentence in Ireland or a ticket to England was the choice.
0 -
Yes, it was no doubt all BlairBrownMilibandCorbyn's fault he got his estimates slightly wrong.another_richard said:
Looking at the OBR report on Osborne's first Budget it forecast that the UK's balance of payments deficit would be near zero for 2014 to 2016:another_richard said:I see that government debt has now reached 87.4% of GDP:
https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/governmentpublicsectorandtaxes/publicsectorfinance/timeseries/hf6x/pusf
George Osborne forecast a maximum of 70% in his 2010 Budget:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/budget/7846849/Budget-2010-Full-text-of-George-Osbornes-statement.html
http://budgetresponsibility.org.uk/docs/junebudget_annexc.pdf
Instead it turned out to be £250bn:
https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nationalaccounts/balanceofpayments/timeseries/hbop/pnbp
Has there ever been a bigger subsidy than that which George Osborne gave to imported tat manufacturers and foreign hoteliers ?0 -
Perhaps they could be strongly advised not to live in Scotland rather than forbidden?Philip_Thompson said:
It is a nonsense. What the EU is proposing is that an EU citizen in the UK should be able to move around within the UK, but a UK citizen in the EU can't move around within the EU.Alanbrooke said:
how would he know ? Is he in the negotiations ?Scott_P said:
Or is he just spinning shit becasue he has nothing better to do ?
It would be like us proposing that someone from the EU who lives in Leicester would be forbidden from moving to Edinburgh.0 -
China gearing up to try to be world leader in AI:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/20/business/china-artificial-intelligence.html0 -
MonikerDiCanio - I remember an Irish court giving an armed bank robber just that choice. It was a deliberate effort by the Irish government.0
-
Very Irish.PAW said:MonikerDiCanio - I remember an Irish court giving an armed bank robber just that choice. It was a deliberate effort by the Irish government.
0 -
Just some ignorant spotty youth no doubt OKC but he is indeed a supercilious little shit.OldKingCole said:
Has he upset you Malc?malcolmg said:
You odious Little Englander clown, your pathetic attempt at racism was shite. It that clear enough for you, you cretinous half witted dullard.Alice_Aforethought said:
Sorry, I have no idea what you just wrote.malcolmg said:
Sad tw**, you make think you are witty but it is by half.Alice_Aforethought said:
Well, obviously. Whatever deal emerges will be presented by the government as a triumph, by Labour as a disaster, by the SNP as nae guid fer Scawtlun, by the EU as a triumph for the EU and nobody will give a monkey's how it is presented by the LibDems, frankly, whoever they are posing as that week - homophobic right wingers, ex-Marxists, whatever.stodge said:
I think a lot will depend on what kind of Treaty comes out of the A50 process. I detect from the week's press outpourings it will contain more fudge than a Cornish sweet shop in high season and may well not stand up to a lot of scrutiny but will be presented as a triumph by both sides to their respective audiences.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Stodge, interesting comment.
I do wonder if this is a slight repeat of the We Must Stop This tendency that Blair and Gina Miller and so forth have had. By wasting their ammunition, money, media time etc on trying to deny a democratic result and decry it as unending woe, they're losing a one-off opportunity to try and channel the result in a way that they would see as better (namely, closer ties to the EU whilst still leaving).
If Blair had kept his Lisbon referendum promise, we wouldn't be invoking Article 50 because, in all likelihood, it wouldn't exist.
Vince may be in his element if and when it comes to a forensic dissection of the detail and he may well see the anomalies before others on the Conservative side in particular.
May's problem will be to try and prevent an unholy alliance of those who want a stronger break from Europe and those who want to keep a closer relationship. In trying to please both sides, she may well finish up pleasing neither and facing real problems in the Commons.
We already know what the reactions will be; what matters is the actual substance.
You are the only person (assuming, bigly, that you're not a 'bot) I've encountered who types in a Scotch brogue. It's just as unintelligible written down as it is shouted from a pool of urine in a shop doorway.
So off with ye, wee man, so to speak.0 -
Yes sure no-one would prefer Edinburgh to "Leicester".Fenman said:
Perhaps they could be strongly advised not to live in Scotland rather than forbidden?Philip_Thompson said:
It is a nonsense. What the EU is proposing is that an EU citizen in the UK should be able to move around within the UK, but a UK citizen in the EU can't move around within the EU.Alanbrooke said:
how would he know ? Is he in the negotiations ?Scott_P said:
Or is he just spinning shit becasue he has nothing better to do ?
It would be like us proposing that someone from the EU who lives in Leicester would be forbidden from moving to Edinburgh.0 -
The LibDems have held both Hereford and Ludlow in the past and are the only effective opposition in this area to the Tories ... and that only in some elections. Labour doesn't campaign or leaflet.AndyJS said:
I think he was one of the youngest MPs elected in 2001.IanB2 said:
I came across his name by accident a few months back, and had to look him up on WP to find that he was one of our former MPs, which for me as an active LibDem is telling. Unlike most of our MPs, he appears to have made very little impact even within the party.AndyJS said:
The Liberal tradition in Wales and the borders dates back a very long time. Leominster should have gone Liberal in 1974 but the constituency boundary was gerrymandered to include parts of Wyre Forest. So they lost by 600. However, the new Tory MP Peter Temple-Morris was so 'wet' he crossed the floor and now sits as a Labour peer.0 -
Alanbrooke said:
I'll riddle you one better, at what age does Southam Observer start voting blue ? :-)GIN1138 said:I'm off out before the rain starts but before I go riddle me this:
How many of the kids shouting " **** the Tories " with Jon Snow at Glasto this year will be voting for the Tories (or whatever Party the Tories have evolved into) in 2057?
Dream on - you guys are a dying breed!
Actually, a more considered response is, it depends on how far to the left the Tories move. 40 years ago the Cons embracing gay rights would have been unthinkable, for example.0 -
NahBenpointer said:Alanbrooke said:
I'll riddle you one better, at what age does Southam Observer start voting blue ? :-)GIN1138 said:I'm off out before the rain starts but before I go riddle me this:
How many of the kids shouting " **** the Tories " with Jon Snow at Glasto this year will be voting for the Tories (or whatever Party the Tories have evolved into) in 2057?
Dream on - you guys are a dying breed!
weve seen it , done it, got the T shirt and see life in a wider perspective
the rebels of my youth live in big houses and do TV ads
one day that will be you - it starts with having your own kids0 -
Thanks for doing that so I didn't have to. And the fact that people get pissed off makes it no less true.Ishmael_Z said:
http://www.nhs.uk/news/2011/07July/pages/uk-cancer-trends-examined.aspxJosiasJessop said:
I think that's utterly and totally wrong. IMO (and I don't have data to back this up, but I doubt you have to data to back up your assertions) medical advances are allowing us to diagnose conditions earlier. In fact, when routine personalised lifetime biometrics come in (which I expect them to do within a decade) many conditions will be picked up almost instantaneously.Luckyguy1983 said:We're living less long because we're unhealthy. Diseases like cancer are hitting us sooner than ever before. This seems to have overtaken the opposing trend of medical advances helping us dodge death for longer.
This will put a fair bit of pressure on health services; not just from false positives, but from required treatment (or advice) for conditions that would have been left undiagnosed before.
http://www.cancerresearchuk.org/health-professional/cancer-statistics/incidence/all-cancers-combined#heading-One
Unsurprisingly (because it's bloody difficult) no one seems to want to commit themselves on better detection/ better reporting vs real change in incidence. My guess is that it is mainly the former, partly because you would expect the sharp decline in smoking to outweigh increased fattiness (and alcohol consumption is apparently trending downwards too).
But if you want to piss off a cancer patient, there is just no better way than to tell him it's all about refined white sugar and modern farming practices. Trust me on this.0 -
That reflects conventional wisdom GIN. I guess the question is are people going to move rightwards fast enough for the Tories, or will they have to move further left?GIN1138 said:The truth is that as people get older they get more right-wing.
Anyone who thinks today's young voters will still have the same views in 30-40 years is mad.
This is the reason why the Tories and Labour will never "die". There will always be enough young voters to vote Labour. There will always be enough older voters to vote Conservative.
It's possible the Parties will split and be called something else but the essential fight between the forces of progressive politics and the forces of conservative politics is eternal.
A question: (and I'm assuming you're over 45) were you a Labour supporter when young?0 -
Mr. Pointer, not sure being in favour of gay rights is a left/right issue.0
