politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Tony Blair: Must we love him or loathe him? Don Brind says No

Tony Blair

just put him out to pasture

-ANECDOTE ALERT-

Two women at my work who voted Leave last year, said this afternoon they were now starting to think we'd be better off staying in after all, because the government are "making a total pig's ear of it". Pretty sure this is the first time I've heard someone say something like that "in the real world".

They've always been very Labour-ish people mind, so maybe not typical of Leave voters overall.

Alanbrooke said:

Tony Blair

just put him out to pasture

Or in prison.

GeoffM said:

tlg86 said:

Second like Remain.

In 5 years time nobody will admit to being a Remoaner

Well, that's certainly one of two possibilities.

I think the dog has just expressed her opinion on the brexit debate having just thrown up over the floor

nichomar said:

I think the dog has just expressed her opinion on the brexit debate squabble having just thrown up over the floor

A suggested edit, trying to get into the spirit of things,

tlg86 said:

“It doesn’t work because it has brought about divergences. Those that are already indebted have become more indebted: and those that are competitive have become more competitive.”

Translation - the Germans must pay.

Yes, if you want to put it like that: the Germans must pay. Macron, Donald Trump and pb-ers passim have made this point. Without transfer payments, the Eurozone enriches Germany at the expense of the poorer countries, and Germany has ruled out transfer payments. Within currency areas (or countries as they are normally known) the rich parts subsidise the poor bits. In America, California and New York pay for Alaska and Alabama. It's not a morality tale; it's life.

DecrepitJohnL said:

tlg86 said:

“It doesn’t work because it has brought about divergences. Those that are already indebted have become more indebted: and those that are competitive have become more competitive.”

Translation - the Germans must pay.

Yes, if you want to put it like that: the Germans must pay. Macron, Donald Trump and pb-ers passim have made this point. Without transfer payments, the Eurozone enriches Germany at the expense of the poorer countries, and Germany has ruled out transfer payments. Within currency areas (or countries as they are normally known) the rich parts subsidise the poor bits. In America, California and New York pay for Alaska and Alabama. It's not a morality tale; it's life.

Yes, I totally agree. When we go up north for football a friend of mine moans about them being on benefits etc etc and I always say that in the grand scheme of things it doesn't really cost us a huge amount and we all get to use the same currency (that's not to say I wouldn't like to see these places prosper, I really would). The bigger issue is what we do with those on benefits in London and the South East.

Blair is guilty of two unforgivable crimes, both of which detractors would claim should be severely punished with either a lengthy custodial sentence for the first and for the second, in some quarters, should be seen as worthy of a capital sentence.

Firstly taking the UK needlessly to war with Iraq on the back of George Bush's coattails.

The second was beating the Conservative Party at three consecutive general elections.

On topic, Tony Blair clearly feels he has nothing to lose.

I don't expect his interventions to carry much weight, though.

David Cameron today

"When you leave office, you sort of know you can't run back on the pitch and give the ball a kick.

"Well, you can but it is not a sensible thing to do."

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron-tories-must-be-more-inspiring-a3589526.html

rcs1000 said:

tlg86 said:

“It doesn’t work because it has brought about divergences. Those that are already indebted have become more indebted: and those that are competitive have become more competitive.”

Translation - the Germans must pay.

Is the divergence story true?

If you date the start of measurements back to 1/1/99, then Spain, Germany, France, the Netherlands, and Portugal have all had very similar economic and employment growth, while Ireland is a bit higher, and Italy quite a bit lower.

What did happen is that the periphery grew faster pre GFC (while Germany was "the sick man of the Euro"), and then Germany grew quicker in the aftermath. Now, of course, it is the periphery - particularly Ireland and Spain - that are growing quicker than Germany.

Of course, there is one country that has been royally f*cked in all of this: Greece. The problem is that it is at least partially their fault. No one made them lie to join the Euro. No one made them stay in.

What's the latest with Greece? What I read sounded like they were being bailed out rather than having their debt restructured?

But yes, they clearly shouldn't have joined in the first place. The rest of the Eurozone should be grateful we didn't join!

I share Don's frustration with Blair. His brand of third way centrist managerial politics was very effective. But times have changed and the financial crisis has changed the underlying reality. People want change. Blair doesn't seem to see that.

Edit - there was a great interview of Blair with Alistair Campbell... You could see Campbell's surprise at how out of touch Blair was... Pretending that Trump would really be okay etc.

' Blair lauded the Germans for their industrial strategy '

Did he apologise for all the damage his government did to British industry ?

another_richard said:

Asda are currently selling cherries and at twice the price and half the eat by date 'hand picked' cherries:

https://groceries.asda.com/product/berries-cherries/asda-growers-selection-cherries/910003106916

https://groceries.asda.com/product/berries-cherries/asda-extra-special-hand-picked-cherries/910003101304

Both types of cherry are from Kent. Though there are some even cheaper cherries from Spain.

Would the standard cherries be machine picked or is putting the words 'hand picked' on the labelling some marketing exploitation of people with more money than sense ?

I was once in a trendy Shoreditch pub that sold "vegetarian beer" for about £6/pint. It turns out all beer is vegetarian, and the landlord had worked out an effective way of separating hipsters from their money.

I am glad to see he has moved onto talking about Brexit, because I'm slightly more inclined to listen to what he has to say about it, than I am to hear his views on how to secure peace in the middle-east.

Richard_Tyndall said:

RobD said:

justin124 said:

Tony Blair needs to serve a sentence in the interests of justice - just as Albert Speer did.

Would need to be tried first.

I don't think he will ever be brought to trial (actually I need to put it more strongly than that, I am certain he will never be brought to trial.) I would go further and say that I don't really think there is any court that could or should have the jurisdiction to try him given he broke no actual laws and I don't believe in just making up crimes to suit political expediency.

But that doesn't stop me believing that he is a truly evil man who committed crimes against humanity that in another era would have seen him thrown in jail or worse. He is a mass murderer who destroyed hundreds of thousands of lives for the sake of a political ideology. In my eyes he will always be guilty and as such should have no part to play in our civic or political life.

For me it's a story of overconfidence. He thought there was no problem he could not fix. I think he thought he was doing the right thing in Iraq, but he was blinded by his arrogance to the reasonable concerns of others. And by his obsession of being close politically to the United States.

Now to be fair the Conservatives went along with it fully. The Lib Dems deserve a lot of credit for their opposition.... They say Chirac opposed the war because he had fought in Algeria and seen how hard it would be.

ThomasNashe said:

I am glad to see he has moved onto talking about Brexit, because I'm slightly more inclined to listen to what he has to say about it, than I am to hear his views on how to secure peace in the middle-east.

I did think that was the ultimate 'f**k you' to the peoples of the Middle East. Not a moment for the other nations of the world to be proud of.

JosiasJessop said:

another_richard said:

Asda are currently selling cherries and at twice the price and half the eat by date 'hand picked' cherries:

https://groceries.asda.com/product/berries-cherries/asda-growers-selection-cherries/910003106916

https://groceries.asda.com/product/berries-cherries/asda-extra-special-hand-picked-cherries/910003101304

Both types of cherry are from Kent. Though there are some even cheaper cherries from Spain.

Would the standard cherries be machine picked or is putting the words 'hand picked' on the labelling some marketing exploitation of people with more money than sense ?

Here's a cherry picking machine in action:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykGuOIMGbLI

A few years back I met a semi-famous olive farmer from France, and she said that whilst there were machines to harvest olives, the results were nowhere near as good as picking by hand, with a high proportion of unsaleable olives. Was she lying, or exaggerating for effect? I've no idea.

Thanks.

Rather incredibly there have been nearly six million views of that on YouTube.

rcs1000 said:

another_richard said:

Asda are currently selling cherries and at twice the price and half the eat by date 'hand picked' cherries:

https://groceries.asda.com/product/berries-cherries/asda-growers-selection-cherries/910003106916

https://groceries.asda.com/product/berries-cherries/asda-extra-special-hand-picked-cherries/910003101304

Both types of cherry are from Kent. Though there are some even cheaper cherries from Spain.

Would the standard cherries be machine picked or is putting the words 'hand picked' on the labelling some marketing exploitation of people with more money than sense ?

I was once in a trendy Shoreditch pub that sold "vegetarian beer" for about £6/pint. It turns out all beer is vegetarian, and the landlord had worked out an effective way of separating hipsters from their money.

Aside from those beers fined with isinglass, derived from fish bladder. Including Guinness IIRC.

williamglenn said:

There was definitely a sense from some on the right of living in an occupied country during the Blair era. Perhaps for some that siege mentality fed into Brexit which they hoped would finally let them throw off the shackles.

The Conservatives never developed a response to Blair. He wrong-footed them at every turn and was the dominant political figure for nearly a decade.

In the end, imitation proved the sincerest form of flattery and the Conservatives chose a Blair-like figure who adopted much of Blair's agenda especially on the social side.

One wonders whether had a more traditional Conservative like Davis won in 2005 whether the Conservative message in 2010 would have been enough to win a majority.

JosiasJessop said:

another_richard said:

Asda are currently selling cherries and at twice the price and half the eat by date 'hand picked' cherries:

https://groceries.asda.com/product/berries-cherries/asda-growers-selection-cherries/910003106916

https://groceries.asda.com/product/berries-cherries/asda-extra-special-hand-picked-cherries/910003101304

Both types of cherry are from Kent. Though there are some even cheaper cherries from Spain.

Would the standard cherries be machine picked or is putting the words 'hand picked' on the labelling some marketing exploitation of people with more money than sense ?

Here's a cherry picking machine in action:
/www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykGuOIMGbLI

I expected a video of PBers choosing which tweets to copy & paste!

isam said:

JosiasJessop said:

another_richard said:

Asda are currently selling cherries and at twice the price and half the eat by date 'hand picked' cherries:

https://groceries.asda.com/product/berries-cherries/asda-growers-selection-cherries/910003106916

https://groceries.asda.com/product/berries-cherries/asda-extra-special-hand-picked-cherries/910003101304

Both types of cherry are from Kent. Though there are some even cheaper cherries from Spain.

Would the standard cherries be machine picked or is putting the words 'hand picked' on the labelling some marketing exploitation of people with more money than sense ?

Here's a cherry picking machine in action:
/www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykGuOIMGbLI

I expected a video of PBers choosing which tweets to copy & paste!

Blimey, that's so 20th. century. They're mostly under poly-tunnels now. (I can almost see them from my house.)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/foodanddrink/9425754/Cherries-rich-pickings.html

Beverley_C said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Beverley_C said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

williamglenn said:

GeoffM said:

tlg86 said:

Second like Remain.

In 5 years time nobody will admit to being a Remoaner

Because it will be too mainstream?

Because they will be deeply embarrassed.

I will be happy to be embarrassed and proven wrong about Brexit. Extremely happy.

However, I am sufficiently convinced that it will be a disaster and I am planning on that basis, selling assets and moving money. I am, quite literally, backing my beliefs with cold, hard cash.

So am I by staying right here in the UK and investing in my children's future.

Everyone assumes I am leaving the UK. I am not. I keep telling everyone this and they keep ignoring it. What I am doing is making sure that my EU citizenship is sorted out and so is my childrens so that they have as many options as possible in their life.

I am pretty certain that if PB were around in WW2, Lord Haw Haw would have used the Irish Tricolour as his Avatar.

stodge said:

williamglenn said:

There was definitely a sense from some on the right of living in an occupied country during the Blair era. Perhaps for some that siege mentality fed into Brexit which they hoped would finally let them throw off the shackles.

The Conservatives never developed a response to Blair. He wrong-footed them at every turn and was the dominant political figure for nearly a decade.

In the end, imitation proved the sincerest form of flattery and the Conservatives chose a Blair-like figure who adopted much of Blair's agenda especially on the social side.

One wonders whether had a more traditional Conservative like Davis won in 2005 whether the Conservative message in 2010 would have been enough to win a majority.

My disappointment with Davis not winning in 2005 is that I generally hold to the view that oppositions don't win elections (although they can lose them by being simply rubbish) but Government's lose them.

As such I think Davis would easily have won against Brown in 2010. The question of course I can't answer is whether he would have been a better PM than Cameron. I have a strong opinion on that but it is just opinion based on my own preferences.

rkrkrk said:

nigel4england said:

rkrkrk said:

I share Don's frustration with Blair. His brand of third way centrist managerial politics was very effective. But times have changed and the financial crisis has changed the underlying reality. People want change. Blair doesn't seem to see that.

Edit - there was a great interview of Blair with Alistair Campbell... You could see Campbell's surprise at how out of touch Blair was... Pretending that Trump would really be okay etc.

Apologies for not replying to your question on the previous thread, I went out to watch my grandson play cricket, and trying to post with my iPhone is a nightmare.

You asked how I voted Leave against my own narrow self interest, which is a fair question. Like SO and many others on here I run my own business, though I don't employ a sole I still turnover around £2.5m.

Some of my clients will be affected by Brexit, which in turn will affect me as they cut back on non-essential insurance.

My business will suffer in the short term but long term I voted for a better Britain for my three daughters and my grandkids.

Not to worry - watching your grandson play cricket is much more important than arguing on an internet forum!

Ah okay - that's interesting. I had normally heard it expressed the other way that Brexit more likely to be good for elderly and bad for young so I was interested.

I share Nigel's view on this. I have never for a minute thought that change will be painless but I do believe the pan will be limited and of short duration whilst the benefits to the my children and grandchildren will be manifold.

Sunil_Prasannan said:

Beverley_C said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Beverley_C said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

williamglenn said:

GeoffM said:

tlg86 said:

Second like Remain.

In 5 years time nobody will admit to being a Remoaner

Because it will be too mainstream?

Because they will be deeply embarrassed.

I will be happy to be embarrassed and proven wrong about Brexit. Extremely happy.

However, I am sufficiently convinced that it will be a disaster and I am planning on that basis, selling assets and moving money. I am, quite literally, backing my beliefs with cold, hard cash.

So am I by staying right here in the UK and investing in my children's future.

Everyone assumes I am leaving the UK. I am not. I keep telling everyone this and they keep ignoring it. What I am doing is making sure that my EU citizenship is sorted out and so is my childrens so that they have as many options as possible in their life.

I am pretty certain that if PB were around in WW2, Lord Haw Haw would have used the Irish Tricolour as his Avatar.

Hmm. Kind of a bloody big slur on the tens of thousands of loyal (to their own Republic) Irishmen who fought and died against the Nazis.

Richard_Tyndall said:

rkrkrk said:

nigel4england said:

rkrkrk said:

I share Don's frustration with Blair. His brand of third way centrist managerial politics was very effective. But times have changed and the financial crisis has changed the underlying reality. People want change. Blair doesn't seem to see that.

Edit - there was a great interview of Blair with Alistair Campbell... You could see Campbell's surprise at how out of touch Blair was... Pretending that Trump would really be okay etc.

Apologies for not replying to your question on the previous thread, I went out to watch my grandson play cricket, and trying to post with my iPhone is a nightmare.

You asked how I voted Leave against my own narrow self interest, which is a fair question. Like SO and many others on here I run my own business, though I don't employ a sole I still turnover around £2.5m.

Some of my clients will be affected by Brexit, which in turn will affect me as they cut back on non-essential insurance.

My business will suffer in the short term but long term I voted for a better Britain for my three daughters and my grandkids.

Not to worry - watching your grandson play cricket is much more important than arguing on an internet forum!

Ah okay - that's interesting. I had normally heard it expressed the other way that Brexit more likely to be good for elderly and bad for young so I was interested.

I share Nigel's view on this. I have never for a minute thought that change will be painless but I do believe the pan will be limited and of short duration whilst the benefits to the my children and grandchildren will be manifold.

Anedcote alert...
I was talking to two sets of friends at the weekend... Both couples voted leave 'for their children's future'; all their children voted remain. Both couples seemed surprised.

For many youngsters, the notion of sovereignty is outdated and over-rated. Westminster is as remote as Brussels for many and in practical terms just as uninfluencable (if that's a word!)

Richard_Tyndall said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

Beverley_C said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Beverley_C said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

williamglenn said:

GeoffM said:

tlg86 said:

Second like Remain.

In 5 years time nobody will admit to being a Remoaner

Because it will be too mainstream?

Because they will be deeply embarrassed.

I will be happy to be embarrassed and proven wrong about Brexit. Extremely happy.

However, I am sufficiently convinced that it will be a disaster and I am planning on that basis, selling assets and moving money. I am, quite literally, backing my beliefs with cold, hard cash.

So am I by staying right here in the UK and investing in my children's future.

Everyone assumes I am leaving the UK. I am not. I keep telling everyone this and they keep ignoring it. What I am doing is making sure that my EU citizenship is sorted out and so is my childrens so that they have as many options as possible in their life.

I am pretty certain that if PB were around in WW2, Lord Haw Haw would have used the Irish Tricolour as his Avatar.

Hmm. Kind of a bloody big slur on the tens of thousands of loyal (to their own Republic) Irishmen who fought and died against the Nazis.

+1

All these WW2 references are quite insulting but then Sunil seems to have descended into puerilism.

Benpointer said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

rkrkrk said:

nigel4england said:

rkrkrk said:

I share Don's frustration with Blair. His brand of third way centrist managerial politics was very effective. But times have changed and the financial crisis has changed the underlying reality. People want change. Blair doesn't seem to see that.

Edit - there was a great interview of Blair with Alistair Campbell... You could see Campbell's surprise at how out of touch Blair was... Pretending that Trump would really be okay etc.

Apologies for not replying to your question on the previous thread, I went out to watch my grandson play cricket, and trying to post with my iPhone is a nightmare.

You asked how I voted Leave against my own narrow self interest, which is a fair question. Like SO and many others on here I run my own business, though I don't employ a sole I still turnover around £2.5m.

Some of my clients will be affected by Brexit, which in turn will affect me as they cut back on non-essential insurance.

My business will suffer in the short term but long term I voted for a better Britain for my three daughters and my grandkids.

Not to worry - watching your grandson play cricket is much more important than arguing on an internet forum!

Ah okay - that's interesting. I had normally heard it expressed the other way that Brexit more likely to be good for elderly and bad for young so I was interested.

I share Nigel's view on this. I have never for a minute thought that change will be painless but I do believe the pan will be limited and of short duration whilst the benefits to the my children and grandchildren will be manifold.

Anedcote alert...
I was talking to two sets of friends at the weekend... Both couples voted leave 'for their children's future'; all their children voted remain. Both couples seemed surprised.

For many youngsters, the notion of sovereignty is outdated and over-rated. Westminster is as remote as Brussels for many and in practical terms just as uninfluencable (if that's a word!)

I would say that is because they do not understand what it means nor the importance of maintaining proper control of Government. I would agree there needs to be further localisation and far more electoral accountability within the UK but the first step in achieving that is bringing powers back from the EU not giving them more.

Sunil_Prasannan said:

Benpointer said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

Beverley_C said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Beverley_C said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

williamglenn said:

GeoffM said:

tlg86 said:

Second like Remain.

In 5 years time nobody will admit to being a Remoaner

Because it will be too mainstream?

Because they will be deeply embarrassed.

I will be happy to be embarrassed and proven wrong about Brexit. Extremely happy.

However, I am sufficiently convinced that it will be a disaster and I am planning on that basis, selling assets and moving money. I am, quite literally, backing my beliefs with cold, hard cash.

So am I by staying right here in the UK and investing in my children's future.

Everyone assumes I am leaving the UK. I am not. I keep telling everyone this and they keep ignoring it. What I am doing is making sure that my EU citizenship is sorted out and so is my childrens so that they have as many options as possible in their life.

I am pretty certain that if PB were around in WW2, Lord Haw Haw would have used the Irish Tricolour as his Avatar.

Hmm. Kind of a bloody big slur on the tens of thousands of loyal (to their own Republic) Irishmen who fought and died against the Nazis.

+1

All these WW2 references are quite insulting but then Sunil seems to have descended into puerilism.

At the point of crisis, at the point of annihilation, survival is victory!

Uhh?

Mexicanpete said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

Benpointer said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

Beverley_C said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Beverley_C said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

williamglenn said:

GeoffM said:

tlg86 said:

Second like Remain.

In 5 years time nobody will admit to being a Remoaner

Because it will be too mainstream?

Because they will be deeply embarrassed.

I will be happy to be embarrassed and proven wrong about Brexit. Extremely happy.

However, I am sufficiently convinced that it will be a disaster and I am planning on that basis, selling assets and moving money. I am, quite literally, backing my beliefs with cold, hard cash.

So am I by staying right here in the UK and investing in my children's future.

Everyone assumes I am leaving the UK. I am not. I keep telling everyone this and they keep ignoring it. What I am doing is making sure that my EU citizenship is sorted out and so is my childrens so that they have as many options as possible in their life.

I am pretty certain that if PB were around in WW2, Lord Haw Haw would have used the Irish Tricolour as his Avatar.

Hmm. Kind of a bloody big slur on the tens of thousands of loyal (to their own Republic) Irishmen who fought and died against the Nazis.

+1

All these WW2 references are quite insulting but then Sunil seems to have descended into puerilism.

At the point of crisis, at the point of annihilation, survival is victory!

Uhh?

Indeed, I rest my case.

Sunil_Prasannan said:

Mexicanpete said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

Benpointer said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

Beverley_C said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Beverley_C said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

williamglenn said:

GeoffM said:

tlg86 said:

Second like Remain.

In 5 years time nobody will admit to being a Remoaner

Because it will be too mainstream?

Because they will be deeply embarrassed.

I will be happy to be embarrassed and proven wrong about Brexit. Extremely happy.

However, I am sufficiently convinced that it will be a disaster and I am planning on that basis, selling assets and moving money. I am, quite literally, backing my beliefs with cold, hard cash.

So am I by staying right here in the UK and investing in my children's future.

Everyone assumes I am leaving the UK. I am not. I keep telling everyone this and they keep ignoring it. What I am doing is making sure that my EU citizenship is sorted out and so is my childrens so that they have as many options as possible in their life.

I am pretty certain that if PB were around in WW2, Lord Haw Haw would have used the Irish Tricolour as his Avatar.

Hmm. Kind of a bloody big slur on the tens of thousands of loyal (to their own Republic) Irishmen who fought and died against the Nazis.

+1

All these WW2 references are quite insulting but then Sunil seems to have descended into puerilism.

At the point of crisis, at the point of annihilation, survival is victory!

Uhh?

2017 is our Dunkirk

Sunil, you should seek help pal.

Benpointer said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

Mexicanpete said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

Benpointer said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

Beverley_C said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Beverley_C said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

williamglenn said:

GeoffM said:

tlg86 said:

Second like Remain.

In 5 years time nobody will admit to being a Remoaner

Because it will be too mainstream?

Because they will be deeply embarrassed.

I will be happy to be embarrassed and proven wrong about Brexit. Extremely happy.

However, I am sufficiently convinced that it will be a disaster and I am planning on that basis, selling assets and moving money. I am, quite literally, backing my beliefs with cold, hard cash.

So am I by staying right here in the UK and investing in my children's future.

Everyone assumes I am leaving the UK. I am not. I keep telling everyone this and they keep ignoring it. What I am doing is making sure that my EU citizenship is sorted out and so is my childrens so that they have as many options as possible in their life.

I am pretty certain that if PB were around in WW2, Lord Haw Haw would have used the Irish Tricolour as his Avatar.

Hmm. Kind of a bloody big slur on the tens of thousands of loyal (to their own Republic) Irishmen who fought and died against the Nazis.

+1

All these WW2 references are quite insulting but then Sunil seems to have descended into puerilism.

At the point of crisis, at the point of annihilation, survival is victory!

Uhh?

2017 is our Dunkirk

Sunil, you should seek help pal.

2017, I speak of electorally. The Tory Party got their arses kicked, but they live to fight another day.

Hence the analogy to Dunkirk.

Hope is a weapon. Survival is victory.

williamglenn said:

https://twitter.com/mattchorley/status/887055573749026816

May has no authority to sack anyone.... That's the problem.

Nigelb said:

So, parents voting 'for their children's future' against their children's wishes = fine.
'Youngsters' voting for their own future = they just don't understand...

As we're not the ones who are going to have to deal with the long term ramifications of Brexit, that seems particularly perverse.

You should become a Marxist - you seem to have the whole false consciousness thing down.

Not in the least. I genuinely believe that too many people today - and that includes most of the younger generation - do not consider nor understand the ramifications of ever more distant governance. They think in terms of the substance of government - Left, Right, Green etc but give little thought to the structure of government and the systems that allow them to express their democratic views. Unless they are like the very few of us on here who actually have a genuine interest in politics beyond the practical effort of voting every few years, they will simply not have considered the immense issues and problems associated with practically all our democratic systems today.

So yes, voting to pull powers away from the centre is hugely important and I am indeed doing it for their benefit. Otherwise they become increasingly frustrated and alienated as they come to realise too late that their votes have ceased to make any real difference because all the decisions are being made by people beyond their electoral reach.

This is not the end of the fight for real democracy, only the start.

Richard_Tyndall said:

Nigelb said:

So, parents voting 'for their children's future' against their children's wishes = fine.
'Youngsters' voting for their own future = they just don't understand...

As we're not the ones who are going to have to deal with the long term ramifications of Brexit, that seems particularly perverse.

You should become a Marxist - you seem to have the whole false consciousness thing down.

Not in the least. I genuinely believe that too many people today - and that includes most of the younger generation - do not consider nor understand the ramifications of ever more distant governance. They think in terms of the substance of government - Left, Right, Green etc but give little thought to the structure of government and the systems that allow them to express their democratic views. Unless they are like the very few of us on here who actually have a genuine interest in politics beyond the practical effort of voting every few years, they will simply not have considered the immense issues and problems associated with practically all our democratic systems today.

So yes, voting to pull powers away from the centre is hugely important and I am indeed doing it for their benefit. Otherwise they become increasingly frustrated and alienated as they come to realise too late that their votes have ceased to make any real difference because all the decisions are being made by people beyond their electoral reach.

This is not the end of the fight for real democracy, only the start.

While I can see where you are coming from in your second paragraph. I wouldn't agree with your analysis.

Your final statement is the sort of populist platitude that people who wind up living in the Reichstag along with their small moustache may have said at the beginning of their career. Jingoistic, nationalist, meaningless, nonsense! In fact four words which sum up Brexit!

Mexicanpete said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Nigelb said:

So, parents voting 'for their children's future' against their children's wishes = fine.
'Youngsters' voting for their own future = they just don't understand...

As we're not the ones who are going to have to deal with the long term ramifications of Brexit, that seems particularly perverse.

You should become a Marxist - you seem to have the whole false consciousness thing down.

Not in the least. I genuinely believe that too many people today - and that includes most of the younger generation - do not consider nor understand the ramifications of ever more distant governance. They think in terms of the substance of government - Left, Right, Green etc but give little thought to the structure of government and the systems that allow them to express their democratic views. Unless they are like the very few of us on here who actually have a genuine interest in politics beyond the practical effort of voting every few years, they will simply not have considered the immense issues and problems associated with practically all our democratic systems today.

So yes, voting to pull powers away from the centre is hugely important and I am indeed doing it for their benefit. Otherwise they become increasingly frustrated and alienated as they come to realise too late that their votes have ceased to make any real difference because all the decisions are being made by people beyond their electoral reach.

This is not the end of the fight for real democracy, only the start.

While I can see where you are coming from in your second paragraph. I wouldn't agree with your analysis.

Your final statement is the sort of populist platitude that people who wind up living in the Reichstag along with their small moustache may have said at the beginning of their career. Jingoistic, nationalist, meaningless, nonsense! In fact four words which sum up Brexit!

Populism - the word always dragged up by those who don't like the implications of democracy. Governments are there to serve the people not to rule them. They do not know best and certainly today are not generally working in our best interests, only in their own. As such we need to keep them under as tight a rein as possible, keep the accountable, severely limited in powers and close to us. The EU certainly does not fulfil any of those criteria and for a lot of the time neither does Parliament. The EU needs to be abandoned completely as far as political influence is concerned and Parliament - or at least the executive - needs to be severely constrained in its powers.

This - "I didn’t need convincing that Brexit is a looming disaster but it was a joy to hear the case made so impressively." - exemplifies what too many on the Remain side, even those who voted Remain, still don't get.

Very few people who can argue impressively why Brexit will be a disaster are equally able to make an impressive and convincing case for the EU, its direction of travel and why this is and will continue to be good for Britain.

If you don't have a positive case to make, you will - eventually - lose to those who do have such a positive case.

The Brexiteers and Corbyn had a positive case, however daft it may seem to many and whatever doubts many had about the most prominent Breexiteers and Corbyn himself. Remain and May were defensive, took their case for granted and thought that pointing out the obvious deficiencies of their opponents would be enough. Telling people to be fearful is not a case, is not attractive and is not successful, as we have seen.

Richard_Tyndall said:

Nigelb said:

So, parents voting 'for their children's future' against their children's wishes = fine.
'Youngsters' voting for their own future = they just don't understand...

As we're not the ones who are going to have to deal with the long term ramifications of Brexit, that seems particularly perverse.

You should become a Marxist - you seem to have the whole false consciousness thing down.

Not in the least. I genuinely believe that too many people today - and that includes most of the younger generation - do not consider nor understand the ramifications of ever more distant governance. They think in terms of the substance of government - Left, Right, Green etc but give little thought to the structure of government and the systems that allow them to express their democratic views. Unless they are like the very few of us on here who actually have a genuine interest in politics beyond the practical effort of voting every few years, they will simply not have considered the immense issues and problems associated with practically all our democratic systems today.

So yes, voting to pull powers away from the centre is hugely important and I am indeed doing it for their benefit. Otherwise they become increasingly frustrated and alienated as they come to realise too late that their votes have ceased to make any real difference because all the decisions are being made by people beyond their electoral reach.

This is not the end of the fight for real democracy, only the start.

You are, of course, entitled to your beliefs - but to claim some sort of superior insight over 'many young people today' who just don't know what they are voting for is patronising bollocks.
With all due respect.

Nigelb said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Nigelb said:

So, parents voting 'for their children's future' against their children's wishes = fine.
'Youngsters' voting for their own future = they just don't understand...

As we're not the ones who are going to have to deal with the long term ramifications of Brexit, that seems particularly perverse.

You should become a Marxist - you seem to have the whole false consciousness thing down.

Not in the least. I genuinely believe that too many people today - and that includes most of the younger generation - do not consider nor understand the ramifications of ever more distant governance. They think in terms of the substance of government - Left, Right, Green etc but give little thought to the structure of government and the systems that allow them to express their democratic views. Unless they are like the very few of us on here who actually have a genuine interest in politics beyond the practical effort of voting every few years, they will simply not have considered the immense issues and problems associated with practically all our democratic systems today.

So yes, voting to pull powers away from the centre is hugely important and I am indeed doing it for their benefit. Otherwise they become increasingly frustrated and alienated as they come to realise too late that their votes have ceased to make any real difference because all the decisions are being made by people beyond their electoral reach.

This is not the end of the fight for real democracy, only the start.

You are, of course, entitled to your beliefs - but to claim some sort of superior insight over 'many young people today' who just don't know what they are voting for is patronising bollocks.
With all due respect.

Not at all. My insight is gained from a specific interest in politics and political systems - an interest that rightly or wrongly is not shared by most people and particularly not by the young who by their actions and statements exhibit time and time again a shocking lack of understanding of how political systems work. The recent belief that Corbyn 'won' the election is a good example of this. The belief that tweets and facebook postings make any difference is another.

Cyclefree said:

This - "I didn’t need convincing that Brexit is a looming disaster but it was a joy to hear the case made so impressively." - exemplifies what too many on the Remain side, even those who voted Remain, still don't get.

Very few people who can argue impressively why Brexit will be a disaster are equally able to make an impressive and convincing case for the EU, its direction of travel and why this is and will continue to be good for Britain.

If you don't have a positive case to make, you will - eventually - lose to those who do have such a positive case.

The Brexiteers and Corbyn had a positive case, however daft it may seem to many and whatever doubts many had about the most prominent Breexiteers and Corbyn himself. Remain and May were defensive, took their case for granted and thought that pointing out the obvious deficiencies of their opponents would be enough. Telling people to be fearful is not a case, is not attractive and is not successful, as we have seen.

It's a fair point. The proposition for the EU is that a glass half full is better than no glass at all. Personally I am OK with that proposition but I accept it isn't a particularly inspiring one.

The counter argument is that (a) the glass is at best half empty and (b) we don't want a glass anyway. The two points are incompatible, but again it's not a particularly inspiring argument to take on.