politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » EXCLUSIVE Support for a second Brexit vote is growing and Leav
politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » EXCLUSIVE Support for a second Brexit vote is growing and Leavers should be nervous
As Tony Blair gave one of his characteristically unwelcome interventions in British politics last week many were asking why he bothers. With parties supporting Brexit winning more than 8 in 10 votes at the recent General Election you could be forgiven for assuming that the former PM’s calls for Brexit to be stopped will fall on deaf ears and the issue is settled.
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First.
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Second, like Remain.
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Third, like Pertwee.0
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Fourth, like a 2nd referendum idea can go fourth and multiply0
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Can't see how public opinion would shift in time. Those who will be convinced by the warnings/scaremongering (delete as appropriate) are already remainers.
No one will change their mind until we start seeing and feeling real world impact... and I think that will take time to filter through.
We also have no idea how the negotiations are going or will go.
What we do know is that Cabinet is divided which increases the difficulty of sorting this out.
IMO the need for a transitional deal to buy time is greater than ever. But would the JRMs of this world would accept that?
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In other news... What does calling someone a smarmy pirate even mean?0
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If we have another referendum before we actually leave, I would encourage leave voters to boycott the vote and the general election that follows.0
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How many people would seriously be ready to take to the streets/ take up arms/ go to prison/ die for brexit?
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Yes please; Leavers boycot the vote. Means a stunning majority for Remain!tlg86 said:If we have another referendum before we actually leave, I would encourage leave voters to boycott the vote and the general election that follows.
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There will be No Brexit.
TWBNB0 -
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Zero ? The Poll Tax actually hurt the pocket directly and could be counted. Brexit, on the other hand, will cost people money through lower economic growth as will be identified in due course.nielh said:How many people would seriously be ready to take to the streets/ take up arms/ go to prison/ die for brexit?
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nielh - I believe a commentator here thought that the referendum result could be ignored, and any trouble from the working class could be violently suppressed by the police and army - does that count?0
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For once, an article in The New European I heartily agree with:
http://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/culture/andrew-neil-britain-s-most-feared-broadcaster-1-51082210 -
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With no legitimacy.......OldKingCole said:
a stunning majority for Remain!tlg86 said:If we have another referendum before we actually leave, I would encourage leave voters to boycott the vote and the general election that follows.
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Bless....
EU negotiations are sending anxious Remainers to Harley Street with ‘Brexit anxiety’
PSYCHOLOGISTS have coined the term “Brexit anxiety” after seeing a surge in anxious Remainers asking for help in the aftermath of Britain's decision to leave the EU.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/829442/brexit-anxiety-negotiations-theresa-may-donald-trump-eu-referendum-talks-michel-barnier
Well, it makes a change from 'Dementia cure' stories.....0 -
AIUI, a majority is a majority.CarlottaVance said:
With no legitimacy.......OldKingCole said:
a stunning majority for Remain!tlg86 said:If we have another referendum before we actually leave, I would encourage leave voters to boycott the vote and the general election that follows.
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I'll add that to the ever-growing list of Brexit Boosting The UK Economy success stories.CarlottaVance said:Bless....
EU negotiations are sending anxious Remainers to Harley Street with ‘Brexit anxiety’
PSYCHOLOGISTS have coined the term “Brexit anxiety” after seeing a surge in anxious Remainers asking for help in the aftermath of Britain's decision to leave the EU.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/829442/brexit-anxiety-negotiations-theresa-may-donald-trump-eu-referendum-talks-michel-barnier
Well, it makes a change from 'Dementia cure' stories.....0 -
Lets see what happens in Catalonia......OldKingCole said:
AIUI, a majority is a majority.CarlottaVance said:
With no legitimacy.......OldKingCole said:
a stunning majority for Remain!tlg86 said:If we have another referendum before we actually leave, I would encourage leave voters to boycott the vote and the general election that follows.
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Who in the working class is going to cause 'trouble'? Brexit isn't even high up on the list of peoples political priorities.PAW said:nielh - I believe a commentator here thought that the referendum result could be ignored, and any trouble from the working class could be violently suppressed by the police and army - does that count?
I doubt that brexitteers on PB would be willing to take to the streets and fight over Brexit.0 -
So what is causing the problems? There are two historic issues that officials point to as having dented the preparedness of the civil service. One is that it is paying the price for neglecting its trade and negotiating skills. “Civil servants rarely won praise from a minister for dealing well with Europe,” said one mandarin. The other is the failure to make any contingency plans for Brexit before the referendum, on the orders of the Cameron administration. On top of that, there is a natural capacity issue given the size of the task."
"Some ministers wonder whether there is still a reluctance among senior civil servants to speak hard truths to the key British players. Others say that May’s lack of clubbability and reluctance to engage with other European leaders has meant she has not been confronted with the reality of the EU’s concerns. Yet most point to a lack of leadership – a weakened prime minister who, in the view of some inside Whitehall, is more reliant than ever on the right wing of her party for survival. Compromise has become a dangerous word. As far as some inside the machine can tell, she “remains on Plan A”, despite the hints of compromise from Davis and the chancellor, Philip Hammond."
"“If the government engineers a situation in which its negotiating position is the same as what parliament is looking for, that isolates the headbangers and those who won’t compromise,” said one senior Tory MP. “I would lay it out to other members of the cabinet who take a different view, and say, ‘look, sooner or later we will lose a vote in the Commons. The election result means you can’t have the Brexit you wanted.’"
"If we can’t do this in parliament, we will end up losing votes, confidence will be lost in the Conservative party, sooner or later something titanic will happen. We will have no credibility whatsoever and we will be thrown out in a 1997 situation.”
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/15/indecision-brexit-eu-negotiations-diplomats-no-compromise0 -
There's some truth in there.IanB2 said:So what is causing the problems? There are two historic issues that officials point to as having dented the preparedness of the civil service. One is that it is paying the price for neglecting its trade and negotiating skills. “Civil servants rarely won praise from a minister for dealing well with Europe,” said one mandarin. The other is the failure to make any contingency plans for Brexit before the referendum, on the orders of the Cameron administration. On top of that, there is a natural capacity issue given the size of the task."
"Some ministers wonder whether there is still a reluctance among senior civil servants to speak hard truths to the key British players. Others say that May’s lack of clubbability and reluctance to engage with other European leaders has meant she has not been confronted with the reality of the EU’s concerns. Yet most point to a lack of leadership – a weakened prime minister who, in the view of some inside Whitehall, is more reliant than ever on the right wing of her party for survival. Compromise has become a dangerous word. As far as some inside the machine can tell, she “remains on Plan A”, despite the hints of compromise from Davis and the chancellor, Philip Hammond."
"“If the government engineers a situation in which its negotiating position is the same as what parliament is looking for, that isolates the headbangers and those who won’t compromise,” said one senior Tory MP. “I would lay it out to other members of the cabinet who take a different view, and say, ‘look, sooner or later we will lose a vote in the Commons. The election result means you can’t have the Brexit you wanted.’"
"If we can’t do this in parliament, we will end up losing votes, confidence will be lost in the Conservative party, sooner or later something titanic will happen. We will have no credibility whatsoever and we will be thrown out in a 1997 situation.”
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/15/indecision-brexit-eu-negotiations-diplomats-no-compromise
Imo Cameron's no contingency planning is what has really weakened us.
He pulled the same trick on SIndy ref too. Grossly irresponsible.0 -
The Left are your natural rioters and looters - especially near shops selling high end TVs.nielh said:
Who in the working class is going to cause 'trouble'? Brexit isn't even high up on the list of peoples political priorities.PAW said:nielh - I believe a commentator here thought that the referendum result could be ignored, and any trouble from the working class could be violently suppressed by the police and army - does that count?
I doubt that brexitteers on PB would be willing to take to the streets and fight over Brexit.
Redistribution of wealth, innit.0 -
It's difficult to predict what the outcome of a second referendum might be, but it's (a) hard to see Corbyn enthusiastically campaigning on the Remain side of it, because he wants the powers to implement his socialist programme, and, (b) HMG and its resources will, this time, be on the Leave side of it, albeit with splits.
Also, we don't know what the terms of "Remain after all" would be. In all likelihood they would be worse that what we currently have, yet alone Dave's deal, and if the rebate goes the obvious play is to make a big deal about voting for 'additional EU contributions from your taxes in a time of austerity'.
"Let's not give the EU another Xmillion a week and strip it from our NHS."0 -
NoIanB2 said:So what is causing the problems? There are two historic issues that officials point to as having dented the preparedness of the civil service. One is that it is paying the price for neglecting its trade and negotiating skills. “Civil servants rarely won praise from a minister for dealing well with Europe,” said one mandarin. The other is the failure to make any contingency plans for Brexit before the referendum, on the orders of the Cameron administration. On top of that, there is a natural capacity issue given the size of the task."
"Some ministers wonder whether there is still a reluctance among senior civil servants to speak hard truths to the key British players. Others say that May’s lack of clubbability and reluctance to engage with other European leaders has meant she has not been confronted with the reality of the EU’s concerns. Yet most point to a lack of leadership – a weakened prime minister who, in the view of some inside Whitehall, is more reliant than ever on the right wing of her party for survival. Compromise has become a dangerous word. As far as some inside the machine can tell, she “remains on Plan A”, despite the hints of compromise from Davis and the chancellor, Philip Hammond."
"“If the government engineers a situation in which its negotiating position is the same as what parliament is looking for, that isolates the headbangers and those who won’t compromise,” said one senior Tory MP. “I would lay it out to other members of the cabinet who take a different view, and say, ‘look, sooner or later we will lose a vote in the Commons. The election result means you can’t have the Brexit you wanted.’"
"If we can’t do this in parliament, we will end up losing votes, confidence will be lost in the Conservative party, sooner or later something titanic will happen. We will have no credibility whatsoever and we will be thrown out in a 1997 situation.”
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/15/indecision-brexit-eu-negotiations-diplomats-no-compromise0 -
It very much depends on what the motives behind calling the vote were, and how quickly an election-weary electorate sniffed it out.OldKingCole said:
AIUI, a majority is a majority.CarlottaVance said:
With no legitimacy.......OldKingCole said:
a stunning majority for Remain!tlg86 said:If we have another referendum before we actually leave, I would encourage leave voters to boycott the vote and the general election that follows.
If the Tories can blow a 20%+ lead in 6 weeks, what makes you think a wafer thin margin for Remain in the latest polls (if, indeed, there really is one) would hold?
The lesson of GE2017 should be ringing loud in the ears of anyone wanting another/early vote on anything, but it isn't.0 -
I see the Brexiteers are in full on "blame the Remainers" mode this morning
The headbangers have been ranting about the EU for 40 years, and when the rubber hits the road their grand plan for leaving is " "
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Another Brexit referendum is about as enticing as IndyRef2. It's time for both losing factions to move on. They're ever more boring and unattractive.0
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It's the other way around. Last time, people were free to imagine Brexit would mean pretty much whatever they wanted it to mean, and vote for it comfortable in the knowledge that Remain were heading for a win anyway. Next time it will be a real and unattractive change, with clear and immediate consequences that no amount of vague talk about sovereignty will be able to cover up. It will be obvious that the money for the NHS isn't going to appear and obvious that Brexit would involve a whole string of compromises that didn't get taken seriously in the debate last time.Casino_Royale said:
It very much depends on what the motives behind calling the vote were, and how quickly an election-weary electorate sniffed it out.OldKingCole said:
AIUI, a majority is a majority.CarlottaVance said:
With no legitimacy.......OldKingCole said:
a stunning majority for Remain!tlg86 said:If we have another referendum before we actually leave, I would encourage leave voters to boycott the vote and the general election that follows.
If the Tories can blow a 20%+ lead in 6 weeks, what makes you think a wafer thin margin for Remain in the latest polls (if, indeed, there really is one) would hold?
The lesson of GE2017 should be ringing loud in the ears of anyone wanting another/early vote on anything, but it isn't.
Brexit will be lucky to hang on to the third of voters that Kieran suggests currently believe in it.
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How about our elected representatives do what they are elected to do and make a decision based on their judgement of our best interests, instead of just passing the buck again and asking people who are mostly ill qualified to judge to vote on something they understand little?0
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Legally that would work, the referendum having been advisory from the beginning, but as a practical political proposition that isn't going to fly. The electorate made the mistake and the electorate will need to be the ones who put it right. The Labour Party in particular needs another vote (though they can't yet admit it) to square all the concentric circles they have weaved on the matter.Peter_the_Punter said:How about our elected representatives do what they are elected to do and make a decision based on their judgement of our best interests, instead of just passing the buck again and asking people who are mostly ill qualified to judge to vote on something they understand little?
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Why not scrap democracy ? The little people are stupid and ignorant after all, aren't we ?Peter_the_Punter said:How about our elected representatives do what they are elected to do and make a decision based on their judgement of our best interests, instead of just passing the buck again and asking people who are mostly ill qualified to judge to vote on something they understand little?
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Yeah, this democracy thing is a real arse, eh?Peter_the_Punter said:How about our elected representatives do what they are elected to do and make a decision based on their judgement of our best interests, instead of just passing the buck again and asking people who are mostly ill qualified to judge to vote on something they understand little?
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Corbyn knows that letting the Tories make a hash of trying to Brexit is his only and best chance. There is no way he would want to do it himself, not least because he has a hundred other things higher on his list. That is the reason he is keeping his head down right now. If a second vote came along he would see that defeating Brexit means defeating (and probably splitting) the Tories and would be leading his tribe of youngsters to the polls with zeal.Casino_Royale said:It's difficult to predict what the outcome of a second referendum might be, but it's (a) hard to see Corbyn enthusiastically campaigning on the Remain side of it, because he wants the powers to implement his socialist programme, and, (b) HMG and its resources will, this time, be on the Leave side of it, albeit with splits.
Also, we don't know what the terms of "Remain after all" would be. In all likelihood they would be worse that what we currently have, yet alone Dave's deal, and if the rebate goes the obvious play is to make a big deal about voting for 'additional EU contributions from your taxes in a time of austerity'.
"Let's not give the EU another Xmillion a week and strip it from our NHS."0 -
Kieran Pedley strongly feels we should stay in the EU. He has made this very clear since 23 June last year.
If you think politics is toxic now, just wait until the people are asked to vote on the same question for a second time.0 -
Only another 39 years for you to keep up your whining.Scott_P said:I see the Brexiteers are in full on "blame the Remainers" mode this morning
The headbangers have been ranting about the EU for 40 years, and when the rubber hits the road their grand plan for leaving is " "0 -
We may argue about a second referendum. We may argue that the first referendum cannot bind after the election of a subsequent parliament. We may argue that the referendum was advisory.
This is all irrelevant.
Article 50 has been submitted, and cannot be withdrawn.0 -
So where are we at the moment; we’re getting ‘rid’ of the European Court of Justice and ending free movement. Against that we’re having trouble recruiting nurses and fruit and vegetable pickers, looks like there might need to be complex negotiations to stay where we are on licensing and importing medicines, if we can, and there seems to be a good chance of difficulty with importing radio-isotopes for cancer treatment and other issues about nuclear energy.
Oh and the money for the NHS was in a unicorns saddllebags! And ‘we didn’t mean it anyway!'0 -
If the UK and EU both want it set aside, then it can.agingjb said:We may argue about a second referendum. We may argue that the first referendum cannot bind after the election of a subsequent parliament. We may argue that the referendum was advisory.
This is all irrelevant.
Article 50 has been submitted, and cannot be withdrawn.0 -
Good morning, everyone.
F1: my post-race analysis is up here:
http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.co.uk/2017/07/united-kingdom-post-race-analysis-2017.html
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It's unlikely the Conservatives will call a second referendum. They are completely passive in the face of Brexit - doing nothing to stop it and nothing to prepare for it either. They aren't interested in what a divided country thinks about it, only what their supporters think and their party is where most of the Leavers are. A second referendum would only happen if they lost power.0
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But I thought the left were a bunch of liberal elitists out of touch with ordinary people?GeoffM said:
The Left are your natural rioters and looters - especially near shops selling high end TVs.nielh said:
Who in the working class is going to cause 'trouble'? Brexit isn't even high up on the list of peoples political priorities.PAW said:nielh - I believe a commentator here thought that the referendum result could be ignored, and any trouble from the working class could be violently suppressed by the police and army - does that count?
I doubt that brexitteers on PB would be willing to take to the streets and fight over Brexit.
Redistribution of wealth, innit.0 -
I'd never want to work on a project run by Remainers. What is being changed is legal and consitutional; tasks outstanding are merely staffing.OldKingCole said:So where are we at the moment; we’re getting ‘rid’ of the European Court of Justice and ending free movement. Against that we’re having trouble recruiting nurses and fruit and vegetable pickers, looks like there might need to be complex negotiations to stay where we are on licensing and importing medicines, if we can, and there seems to be a good chance of difficulty with importing radio-isotopes for cancer treatment and other issues about nuclear energy.
Oh and the money for the NHS was in a unicorns saddllebags! And ‘we didn’t mean it anyway!'
If I had to choose between legal wrangling and staffing issues, I'd chose the latter every time...
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That's simply mistaken. As anyone who knows the EU can confirm, they are hedgers, fudgers and experts at kicking cans down the road - all things you often hear as criticisms rather than compliments. They'll stop the clock, reinterpret the rules, whatever, if there's agreement that it's necessary and desirable.agingjb said:We may argue about a second referendum. We may argue that the first referendum cannot bind after the election of a subsequent parliament. We may argue that the referendum was advisory.
This is all irrelevant.
Article 50 has been submitted, and cannot be withdrawn.
At present I think they'd be well up for it. After another year of fractious negotiations with an indecisive partner, I'm not sure. There comes a point where someone says "I'm not really sure if I want to be with you" for the 177th time and gets the reply "well, push off then".0 -
If it happens (unlikely) a second referendum world be on the terms of leaving (no SM, CU etc). At least the proposition to vote for or against would be a concrete one. It would also only happen in a context where Brexit is no longer seen by a majority as viable. It would be bad tempered and humiliating, but dealing with a situation that the Leavers were seen to have created.Casino_Royale said:It's difficult to predict what the outcome of a second referendum might be, but it's (a) hard to see Corbyn enthusiastically campaigning on the Remain side of it, because he wants the powers to implement his socialist programme, and, (b) HMG and its resources will, this time, be on the Leave side of it, albeit with splits.
Also, we don't know what the terms of "Remain after all" would be. In all likelihood they would be worse that what we currently have, yet alone Dave's deal, and if the rebate goes the obvious play is to make a big deal about voting for 'additional EU contributions from your taxes in a time of austerity'.
"Let's not give the EU another Xmillion a week and strip it from our NHS."0 -
I think you're projecting your own views there.IanB2 said:
It's the other way around. Last time, people were free to imagine Brexit would mean pretty much whatever they wanted it to mean, and vote for it comfortable in the knowledge that Remain were heading for a win anyway. Next time it will be a real and unattractive change, with clear and immediate consequences that no amount of vague talk about sovereignty will be able to cover up. It will be obvious that the money for the NHS isn't going to appear and obvious that Brexit would involve a whole string of compromises that didn't get taken seriously in the debate last time.Casino_Royale said:
It very much depends on what the motives behind calling the vote were, and how quickly an election-weary electorate sniffed it out.OldKingCole said:
AIUI, a majority is a majority.CarlottaVance said:
With no legitimacy.......OldKingCole said:
a stunning majority for Remain!tlg86 said:If we have another referendum before we actually leave, I would encourage leave voters to boycott the vote and the general election that follows.
If the Tories can blow a 20%+ lead in 6 weeks, what makes you think a wafer thin margin for Remain in the latest polls (if, indeed, there really is one) would hold?
The lesson of GE2017 should be ringing loud in the ears of anyone wanting another/early vote on anything, but it isn't.
Brexit will be lucky to hang on to the third of voters that Kieran suggests currently believe in it.0 -
how is anyone going to take the Tory Party Conference seriously whilst they are trying to stab each other in the back? Open warfare is not far away.0
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The clamour for a second referendum is growing but can someone suggest how and when it could be legislated, on what basis would the question/s be put and how would we unwind A50 and on what terms we would remain/rejoin the EU.FF43 said:It's unlikely the Conservatives will call a second referendum. They are completely passive in the face of Brexit - doing nothing to stop it and nothing to prepare for it either. They aren't interested in what a divided country thinks about it, only what their supporters think and their party is where most of the Leavers are. A second referendum would only happen if they lost power.
Without pragmatic and realistic answers to all these questions how does anyone think it is even remotely going to happen0 -
I don't think you understand Corbyn or his real agenda.IanB2 said:
Corbyn knows that letting the Tories make a hash of trying to Brexit is his only and best chance. There is no way he would want to do it himself, not least because he has a hundred other things higher on his list. That is the reason he is keeping his head down right now. If a second vote came along he would see that defeating Brexit means defeating (and probably splitting) the Tories and would be leading his tribe of youngsters to the polls with zeal.Casino_Royale said:It's difficult to predict what the outcome of a second referendum might be, but it's (a) hard to see Corbyn enthusiastically campaigning on the Remain side of it, because he wants the powers to implement his socialist programme, and, (b) HMG and its resources will, this time, be on the Leave side of it, albeit with splits.
Also, we don't know what the terms of "Remain after all" would be. In all likelihood they would be worse that what we currently have, yet alone Dave's deal, and if the rebate goes the obvious play is to make a big deal about voting for 'additional EU contributions from your taxes in a time of austerity'.
"Let's not give the EU another Xmillion a week and strip it from our NHS."0 -
But ending free movement is what’s indicating forthcoming labour crises.Mortimer said:
I'd never want to work on a project run by Remainers. What is being changed is legal and consitutional; tasks outstanding are merely staffing.OldKingCole said:So where are we at the moment; we’re getting ‘rid’ of the European Court of Justice and ending free movement. Against that we’re having trouble recruiting nurses and fruit and vegetable pickers, looks like there might need to be complex negotiations to stay where we are on licensing and importing medicines, if we can, and there seems to be a good chance of difficulty with importing radio-isotopes for cancer treatment and other issues about nuclear energy.
Oh and the money for the NHS was in a unicorns saddllebags! And ‘we didn’t mean it anyway!'
If I had to choose between legal wrangling and staffing issues, I'd chose the latter every time...
(Note that’s labour with a small l!)
Incidentally, I’m becoming increasingly suspicious of our headline employment statistics. They really don’t seem to be related to what is actually happening.0 -
When the final deal is clear in 2019, and has probably just been defeated in the 'meaningful vote' in parliament, by parliament (or indeed the government, as the only way out of the mess they will then be in), the choice would be the deal, or remain on the same terms as now (or slightly better, if Blair does actually have a point for once). A50 doesn't present any impediment, not least because the club itself writes the rules.Big_G_NorthWales said:
The clamour for a second referendum is growing but can someone suggest how and when it could be legislated, on what basis would the question/s be put and how would we unwind A50 and on what terms we would remain/rejoin the EU.FF43 said:It's unlikely the Conservatives will call a second referendum. They are completely passive in the face of Brexit - doing nothing to stop it and nothing to prepare for it either. They aren't interested in what a divided country thinks about it, only what their supporters think and their party is where most of the Leavers are. A second referendum would only happen if they lost power.
Without pragmatic and realistic answers to all these questions how does anyone think it is even remotely going to happen0 -
Not only that, the Lisbon Treaty was written with full regard to the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties which suggests that any notice to trigger leaving a treaty may be withdrawn in good faith at any point before its effect is triggered.NickPalmer said:
That's simply mistaken. As anyone who knows the EU can confirm, they are hedgers, fudgers and experts at kicking cans down the road - all things you often hear as criticisms rather than compliments. They'll stop the clock, reinterpret the rules, whatever, if there's agreement that it's necessary and desirable.agingjb said:We may argue about a second referendum. We may argue that the first referendum cannot bind after the election of a subsequent parliament. We may argue that the referendum was advisory.
This is all irrelevant.
Article 50 has been submitted, and cannot be withdrawn.
At present I think they'd be well up for it. After another year of fractious negotiations with an indecisive partner, I'm not sure. There comes a point where someone says "I'm not really sure if I want to be with you" for the 177th time and gets the reply "well, push off then".0 -
Did you? Interesting.Recidivist said:
But I thought the left were a bunch of liberal elitists out of touch with ordinary people?GeoffM said:
The Left are your natural rioters and looters - especially near shops selling high end TVs.nielh said:
Who in the working class is going to cause 'trouble'? Brexit isn't even high up on the list of peoples political priorities.PAW said:nielh - I believe a commentator here thought that the referendum result could be ignored, and any trouble from the working class could be violently suppressed by the police and army - does that count?
I doubt that brexitteers on PB would be willing to take to the streets and fight over Brexit.
Redistribution of wealth, innit.0 -
The clamour for a second referendumBig_G_NorthWales said:
The clamour for a second referendum is growing but can someone suggest how and when it could be legislated, on what basis would the question/s be put and how would we unwind A50 and on what terms we would remain/rejoin the EU.FF43 said:It's unlikely the Conservatives will call a second referendum. They are completely passive in the face of Brexit - doing nothing to stop it and nothing to prepare for it either. They aren't interested in what a divided country thinks about it, only what their supporters think and their party is where most of the Leavers are. A second referendum would only happen if they lost power.
Without pragmatic and realistic answers to all these questions how does anyone think it is even remotely going to happen
Evidence?0 -
She was great in Attack The Block (itself a great British film), as was John Boyega. There is immense satisfaction in seeing actors from small-ish budget British films make their way in the world - Boyega, McConnell, Ahmed, Whittaker now and plenty others.GeoffM said:
Nice one. You can retweet pictures of that cute Dr Who as much as you like.Scott_P said:twitter.com/williamsjon/status/886821085622272000
No objections to seeing her face a few more times.0 -
This a sensible Tory analysis IMO:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/17/tory-party-reputation-new-leader0 -
If in a few months time May just announced one, with a similar statement to her GE announcement, would it not become immediately unstoppable?FF43 said:It's unlikely the Conservatives will call a second referendum. They are completely passive in the face of Brexit - doing nothing to stop it and nothing to prepare for it either. They aren't interested in what a divided country thinks about it, only what their supporters think and their party is where most of the Leavers are. A second referendum would only happen if they lost power.
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On topic.
Phrase of the year is "we are where we are" and so with Brexit. We are in the middle of a rubber dinghy rapids ride and, sadly, we can't ask to be let off half way down.0 -
The evidence of the last couple of years is that is true, and not only in the UK...MonikerDiCanio said:
Why not scrap democracy ? The little people are stupid and ignorant after all, aren't we ?Peter_the_Punter said:How about our elected representatives do what they are elected to do and make a decision based on their judgement of our best interests, instead of just passing the buck again and asking people who are mostly ill qualified to judge to vote on something they understand little?
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RoyalBlue said:
Kieran Pedley strongly feels we should stay in the EU. He has made this very clear since 23 June last year.
If you think politics is toxic now, just wait until the people are asked to vote on the same question for a second time.
Politics is getting toxic whatever happens with Brexit, Brexit is just a lightning rod for peoples anger. If it was possible to have a Brexit in line with the leave campaign (£350m per week for the NHS, regain control of immigration, control of laws, no economic impact, new trade deals, still able to retire in Spain etc), then it could defuse the situation. But as we all know the reality of Brexit is far more complicated than that. There will either be compromises with the EU (seen as betrayal of the leave vote) or a very hard no deal Brexit with associated economic harm at least for a while (that will be seen as the EU punishing us deserving retribution of some sort).
My own view is that the genie cannot be put back in the bottle and they have to get on with Brexit in much the way that they are doing. IE the decision has to be seen through. For now.
0 -
Yes I agree with that and I wish her all the best in her new role.TOPPING said:
She was great in Attack The Block (itself a great British film), as was John Boyega. There is immense satisfaction in seeing actors from small-ish budget British films make their way in the world - Boyega, McConnell, Ahmed, Whittaker now and plenty others.GeoffM said:
Nice one. You can retweet pictures of that cute Dr Who as much as you like.Scott_P said:twitter.com/williamsjon/status/886821085622272000
No objections to seeing her face a few more times.
I think I'll watch Attack The Block today - the review looks good. Cheers!0 -
Why would that be toxic? I don't and didn't have a problem with the people being asked via referendum last time.RoyalBlue said:Kieran Pedley strongly feels we should stay in the EU. He has made this very clear since 23 June last year.
If you think politics is toxic now, just wait until the people are asked to vote on the same question for a second time.
People blame the Cons, or Dave for holding it and despite it delivering a decision I disagreed with, I cannot condemn them giving the public a say on the issue. Disagreeing with referendums in principle is another matter.
Equally, I wouldn't have a problem with another one. It is all democracy. Wanting fewer public votes, or just the ones that work out for you, does seem to be classic Brexiter cake and eat it strategy.
0 -
It's a great film.GeoffM said:
Yes I agree with that and I wish her all the best in her new role.TOPPING said:
She was great in Attack The Block (itself a great British film), as was John Boyega. There is immense satisfaction in seeing actors from small-ish budget British films make their way in the world - Boyega, McConnell, Ahmed, Whittaker now and plenty others.GeoffM said:
Nice one. You can retweet pictures of that cute Dr Who as much as you like.Scott_P said:twitter.com/williamsjon/status/886821085622272000
No objections to seeing her face a few more times.
I think I'll watch Attack The Block today - the review looks good. Cheers!0 -
The evidence of more than the last couple of years is that the politicians are incompetent and corrupt, and not only in the UK.foxinsoxuk said:
The evidence of the last couple of years is that is true, and not only in the UK...MonikerDiCanio said:
Why not scrap democracy ? The little people are stupid and ignorant after all, aren't we ?Peter_the_Punter said:How about our elected representatives do what they are elected to do and make a decision based on their judgement of our best interests, instead of just passing the buck again and asking people who are mostly ill qualified to judge to vote on something they understand little?
So if we discount the people and discount the politicians who makes the decisions ?
0 -
In principle, I'm with you and David Davis on this one. I just think the period leading up to a second vote would be awful.TOPPING said:
Why would that be toxic? I don't and didn't have a problem with the people being asked via referendum last time.RoyalBlue said:Kieran Pedley strongly feels we should stay in the EU. He has made this very clear since 23 June last year.
If you think politics is toxic now, just wait until the people are asked to vote on the same question for a second time.
People blame the Cons, or Dave for holding it and despite it delivering a decision I disagreed with, I cannot condemn them giving the public a say on the issue. Disagreeing with referendums in principle is another matter.
Equally, I wouldn't have a problem with another one. It is all democracy. Wanting fewer public votes, or just the ones that work out for you, does seem to be classic Brexiter cake and eat it strategy.
It could very well happen! Nobody knows what Britain's status will be in 2 years' time.0 -
It will be toxic either whether we have a second referendum or not.RoyalBlue said:
In principle, I'm with you and David Davis on this one. I just think the period leading up to a second vote would be awful.TOPPING said:
Why would that be toxic? I don't and didn't have a problem with the people being asked via referendum last time.RoyalBlue said:Kieran Pedley strongly feels we should stay in the EU. He has made this very clear since 23 June last year.
If you think politics is toxic now, just wait until the people are asked to vote on the same question for a second time.
People blame the Cons, or Dave for holding it and despite it delivering a decision I disagreed with, I cannot condemn them giving the public a say on the issue. Disagreeing with referendums in principle is another matter.
Equally, I wouldn't have a problem with another one. It is all democracy. Wanting fewer public votes, or just the ones that work out for you, does seem to be classic Brexiter cake and eat it strategy.
It could very well happen! Nobody knows what Britain's status will be in 2 years' time.
The backlash against Brexit as it turns to ashes in the mouths of the Leavers will be pretty unforgiving.0 -
Yes on that we can agree. Remainers will expect Leavers to have "seen the light", while Leavers will see treachery at every corner, or at least in every comment.RoyalBlue said:
In principle, I'm with you and David Davis on this one. I just think the period leading up to a second vote would be awful.TOPPING said:
Why would that be toxic? I don't and didn't have a problem with the people being asked via referendum last time.RoyalBlue said:Kieran Pedley strongly feels we should stay in the EU. He has made this very clear since 23 June last year.
If you think politics is toxic now, just wait until the people are asked to vote on the same question for a second time.
People blame the Cons, or Dave for holding it and despite it delivering a decision I disagreed with, I cannot condemn them giving the public a say on the issue. Disagreeing with referendums in principle is another matter.
Equally, I wouldn't have a problem with another one. It is all democracy. Wanting fewer public votes, or just the ones that work out for you, does seem to be classic Brexiter cake and eat it strategy.
It could very well happen! Nobody knows what Britain's status will be in 2 years' time.0 -
Really? It explains why cafes and bars are buzzing, and also why certain members of my family who had been long term unemployed (including several single mothers) are so proudly posting of their new jobs. I'm very proud of them. And also of the little changes in the Government's stewardship of the economy that has created the jobs.OldKingCole said:
But ending free movement is what’s indicating forthcoming labour crises.Mortimer said:
I'd never want to work on a project run by Remainers. What is being changed is legal and consitutional; tasks outstanding are merely staffing.OldKingCole said:So where are we at the moment; we’re getting ‘rid’ of the European Court of Justice and ending free movement. Against that we’re having trouble recruiting nurses and fruit and vegetable pickers, looks like there might need to be complex negotiations to stay where we are on licensing and importing medicines, if we can, and there seems to be a good chance of difficulty with importing radio-isotopes for cancer treatment and other issues about nuclear energy.
Oh and the money for the NHS was in a unicorns saddllebags! And ‘we didn’t mean it anyway!'
If I had to choose between legal wrangling and staffing issues, I'd chose the latter every time...
(Note that’s labour with a small l!)
Incidentally, I’m becoming increasingly suspicious of our headline employment statistics. They really don’t seem to be related to what is actually happening.
It's not perfect, and I wish there was more export activity (and less import activity), but the economy has defied naysayers over the years. How many recessions has Uncle Vince predicted since 2010?
0 -
Having been proved wrong on everything they predicted ** would happen after a Leave vote Remainers have retreated into their echo chamber.Casino_Royale said:
I think you're projecting your own views there.IanB2 said:
It's the other way around. Last time, people were free to imagine Brexit would mean pretty much whatever they wanted it to mean, and vote for it comfortable in the knowledge that Remain were heading for a win anyway. Next time it will be a real and unattractive change, with clear and immediate consequences that no amount of vague talk about sovereignty will be able to cover up. It will be obvious that the money for the NHS isn't going to appear and obvious that Brexit would involve a whole string of compromises that didn't get taken seriously in the debate last time.Casino_Royale said:
It very much depends on what the motives behind calling the vote were, and how quickly an election-weary electorate sniffed it out.OldKingCole said:
AIUI, a majority is a majority.CarlottaVance said:
With no legitimacy.......OldKingCole said:
a stunning majority for Remain!tlg86 said:If we have another referendum before we actually leave, I would encourage leave voters to boycott the vote and the general election that follows.
If the Tories can blow a 20%+ lead in 6 weeks, what makes you think a wafer thin margin for Remain in the latest polls (if, indeed, there really is one) would hold?
The lesson of GE2017 should be ringing loud in the ears of anyone wanting another/early vote on anything, but it isn't.
Brexit will be lucky to hang on to the third of voters that Kieran suggests currently believe in it.
** things such as:
The economy / stock market / house prices would collapse
Foreign workers would flee Britain
Millions of refugees would move unhindered to Britain
There would be attacks on foreigners living in Britain
A read back of the PB threads after the Leave vote shows Reaminers claiming those things were already happening. Some of whom really should be ashamed about the eagerness they were pedeling fake news.0 -
The interesting point is that the Brexit vote hasn't resolved things. You might expect once a vote has been taken a majority would say, let's get on with it. A consensus would be built with just a small fringe of diehards who still hold out. I think there are several reasons why that hasn't happened.0
-
Something we've not discussed much: the resolution to the current in-fighting in the Cabinet. There are 5 possibilities:
1. Someone emerges as the dominant figure and subdues everyone else.
2. The squabbling continues indefinitely without resolution.
3. The recess makes everyone calm down and things proceed fairly peacefully.
4. Someone gets fed up and resigns.
5. Ultimately the Tories feel that the disruption of a leadership eleciton is less than the squabbles, and calls one to get a decisive leader.
1 seems unlikely - too many strong personalities who feel inches away from the top.
2 is possible but will ultimately lead to both a very messy Brexit and Tory catastophe.
3 is quite likely in the short term, but the Conference and the Brexit negotiations will reignite everything in Septembet/October.
4 seems plausible. Hammond's comments are brutally outspoken, and if people ignore him and just carry on briefing against him, it's easy to see him quitting. That almost certainly leads to 5.
5 - maybe.
Dunno. What do Conservatives here expect, or do they see other possibilities? Genuine question, with betting implications.0 -
When Britain is finally forced to live within its means then many of these bar/café/hotel jobs are going to disappear quicker than an April frost.Mortimer said:
Really? It explains why cafes and bars are buzzing, and also why certain members of my family who had been long term unemployed (including several single mothers) are so proudly posting of their new jobs. I'm very proud of them. And also of the little changes in the Government's stewardship of the economy that has created the jobs.OldKingCole said:
But ending free movement is what’s indicating forthcoming labour crises.Mortimer said:
I'd never want to work on a project run by Remainers. What is being changed is legal and consitutional; tasks outstanding are merely staffing.OldKingCole said:So where are we at the moment; we’re getting ‘rid’ of the European Court of Justice and ending free movement. Against that we’re having trouble recruiting nurses and fruit and vegetable pickers, looks like there might need to be complex negotiations to stay where we are on licensing and importing medicines, if we can, and there seems to be a good chance of difficulty with importing radio-isotopes for cancer treatment and other issues about nuclear energy.
Oh and the money for the NHS was in a unicorns saddllebags! And ‘we didn’t mean it anyway!'
If I had to choose between legal wrangling and staffing issues, I'd chose the latter every time...
(Note that’s labour with a small l!)
Incidentally, I’m becoming increasingly suspicious of our headline employment statistics. They really don’t seem to be related to what is actually happening.
It's not perfect, and I wish there was more export activity (and less import activity), but the economy has defied naysayers over the years. How many recessions has Uncle Vince predicted since 2010?0 -
6. Events intervene and everyone has to go quiet for a while.NickPalmer said:Something we've not discussed much: the resolution to the current in-fighting in the Cabinet. There are 5 possibilities:
1. Someone emerges as the dominant figure and subdues everyone else.
2. The squabbling continues indefinitely without resolution.
3. The recess makes everyone calm down and things proceed fairly peacefully.
4. Someone gets fed up and resigns.
5. Ultimately the Tories feel that the disruption of a leadership eleciton is less than the squabbles, and calls one to get a decisive leader.
1 seems unlikely - too many strong personalities who feel inches away from the top.
2 is possible but will ultimately lead to both a very messy Brexit and Tory catastophe.
3 is quite likely in the short term, but the Conference and the Brexit negotiations will reignite everything in Septembet/October.
4 seems plausible. Hammond's comments are brutally outspoken, and if people ignore him and just carry on briefing against him, it's easy to see him quitting. That almost certainly leads to 5.
5 - maybe.
Dunno. What do Conservatives here expect, or do they see other possibilities? Genuine question, with betting implications.0 -
It's not impossible that May returns after recess, refreshed and gets a grip. I suspect she has more authority than she realises at the moment, mainly because she is the one person in place who can stop there being a leadership election that no backbenchers want as they fear it will lead to a 2nd GE.NickPalmer said:Something we've not discussed much: the resolution to the current in-fighting in the Cabinet. There are 5 possibilities:
1. Someone emerges as the dominant figure and subdues everyone else.
2. The squabbling continues indefinitely without resolution.
3. The recess makes everyone calm down and things proceed fairly peacefully.
4. Someone gets fed up and resigns.
5. Ultimately the Tories feel that the disruption of a leadership eleciton is less than the squabbles, and calls one to get a decisive leader.
1 seems unlikely - too many strong personalities who feel inches away from the top.
2 is possible but will ultimately lead to both a very messy Brexit and Tory catastophe.
3 is quite likely in the short term, but the Conference and the Brexit negotiations will reignite everything in Septembet/October.
4 seems plausible. Hammond's comments are brutally outspoken, and if people ignore him and just carry on briefing against him, it's easy to see him quitting. That almost certainly leads to 5.
5 - maybe.
Dunno. What do Conservatives here expect, or do they see other possibilities? Genuine question, with betting implications.
Perhaps May should demonstrate there is still life by sacking someone?0 -
There are a few Establishment and self-important people who have never accepted Brexit (eg Tony Blair, BBC, Guardian columnists). Most of their hangers-on know that can't directly deny a democratic decision, so they start their pompous speeches with "We accept the decision, but...
They know their only hope is to delay things and muddy the water. So they support everything the EU negotiators say, invent words like 'hard Brexit' and say we must have a plan that has been agreed by Uncle Tom Cobleigh and all.
It's transparent, it's predictable and it's a test for how genuine a democracy we are.
As an old git, I've seen these sort of shenanigans before. It's why politics has a bed name. Oh, for some honesty.
Sigh.0 -
0
-
One of which is that we live in a parliamentary democracy. It was constitutionally stupid to risk a referendum on a highly complex issue when a clear majority of MPs wanted to Remain. A Leave result in those circumstances was bound to lead to crisis.FF43 said:The interesting point is that the Brexit vote hasn't resolved things. You might expect once a vote has been taken a majority would say, let's get on with it. A consensus would be built with just a small fringe of diehards who still hold out. I think there are several reasons why that hasn't happened.
The solution might have been some kind of threshold, so that it was clear that the result was the settled will of the people (a 52-48 result is not the settled will).
Personally, Osborne was right, a referendum was a "crazy idea".0 -
6. A deal is done where May assures senior cabinet members she will step down in 2019.NickPalmer said:Something we've not discussed much: the resolution to the current in-fighting in the Cabinet. There are 5 possibilities:
1. Someone emerges as the dominant figure and subdues everyone else.
2. The squabbling continues indefinitely without resolution.
3. The recess makes everyone calm down and things proceed fairly peacefully.
4. Someone gets fed up and resigns.
5. Ultimately the Tories feel that the disruption of a leadership eleciton is less than the squabbles, and calls one to get a decisive leader.
1 seems unlikely - too many strong personalities who feel inches away from the top.
2 is possible but will ultimately lead to both a very messy Brexit and Tory catastophe.
3 is quite likely in the short term, but the Conference and the Brexit negotiations will reignite everything in Septembet/October.
4 seems plausible. Hammond's comments are brutally outspoken, and if people ignore him and just carry on briefing against him, it's easy to see him quitting. That almost certainly leads to 5.
5 - maybe.
Dunno. What do Conservatives here expect, or do they see other possibilities? Genuine question, with betting implications.
That feels like it would work for all parties.0 -
So why are the government making such an almighty hash of Brexit?
A) Brexit was always difficult /impossible given the two year process.
lack of preparation from Cameron
C) Vote Leave made impossible promises to win the vote
D) A serious lack of talent at the top of politics
E) Fundamental weaknesses in the UK position
All of the above or something else?0 -
She could start by sacking Liam Fox. What does he know about international trade or how it's conducted in 2017?rottenborough said:
It's not impossible that May returns after recess, refreshed and gets a grip. I suspect she has more authority than she realises at the moment, mainly because she is the one person in place who can stop there being a leadership election that no backbenchers want as they fear it will lead to a 2nd GE.NickPalmer said:Something we've not discussed much: the resolution to the current in-fighting in the Cabinet. There are 5 possibilities:
1. Someone emerges as the dominant figure and subdues everyone else.
2. The squabbling continues indefinitely without resolution.
3. The recess makes everyone calm down and things proceed fairly peacefully.
4. Someone gets fed up and resigns.
5. Ultimately the Tories feel that the disruption of a leadership eleciton is less than the squabbles, and calls one to get a decisive leader.
1 seems unlikely - too many strong personalities who feel inches away from the top.
2 is possible but will ultimately lead to both a very messy Brexit and Tory catastophe.
3 is quite likely in the short term, but the Conference and the Brexit negotiations will reignite everything in Septembet/October.
4 seems plausible. Hammond's comments are brutally outspoken, and if people ignore him and just carry on briefing against him, it's easy to see him quitting. That almost certainly leads to 5.
5 - maybe.
Dunno. What do Conservatives here expect, or do they see other possibilities? Genuine question, with betting implications.
Perhaps May should demonstrate there is still life by sacking someone?0 -
The U.K. Economy has many strengths with its fairly flexible job market. The downside is the massive costs loaded onto fixed capital assets. This creates an economy based mostly on labour. In addition many fixed assets that do exist are owned by foreigners. I estimate that my cost of capital in the U.K. on fixed assets is about 20% while in Switzerland where we have a sister company it is 4%. My average cost of skilled labour is £30k pa in Switzerland it is £60k. If we are to expand our exports this situation needs to change radically. It is easier to move labour than fixed assets. We don't want to end up like the PhilippinesMortimer said:
Really? It explains why cafes and bars are buzzing, and also why certain members of my family who had been long term unemployed (including several single mothers) are so proudly posting of their new jobs. I'm very proud of them. And also of the little changes in the Government's stewardship of the economy that has created the jobs.OldKingCole said:
But ending free movement is what’s indicating forthcoming labour crises.Mortimer said:
I'd never want to work on a project run by Remainers. What is being changed is legal and consitutional; tasks outstanding are merely staffing.OldKingCole said:So where are we at the moment; we’re getting ‘rid’ of the European Court of Justice and ending free movement. Against that we’re having trouble recruiting nurses and fruit and vegetable pickers, looks like there might need to be complex negotiations to stay where we are on licensing and importing medicines, if we can, and there seems to be a good chance of difficulty with importing radio-isotopes for cancer treatment and other issues about nuclear energy.
Oh and the money for the NHS was in a unicorns saddllebags! And ‘we didn’t mean it anyway!'
If I had to choose between legal wrangling and staffing issues, I'd chose the latter every time...
(Note that’s labour with a small l!)
Incidentally, I’m becoming increasingly suspicious of our headline employment statistics. They really don’t seem to be related to what is actually happening.
It's not perfect, and I wish there was more export activity (and less import activity), but the economy has defied naysayers over the years. How many recessions has Uncle Vince predicted since 2010?0 -
IME many (not by any means all) cafe’s and bars are buzzing because they’ve got immigrant staff to run them. If/When those staff go....Mortimer said:
Really? It explains why cafes and bars are buzzing, and also why certain members of my family who had been long term unemployed (including several single mothers) are so proudly posting of their new jobs. I'm very proud of them. And also of the little changes in the Government's stewardship of the economy that has created the jobs.OldKingCole said:
But ending free movement is what’s indicating forthcoming labour crises.Mortimer said:
I'd never want to work on a project run by Remainers. What is being changed is legal and consitutional; tasks outstanding are merely staffing.OldKingCole said:So where are we at the moment; we’re getting ‘rid’ of the European Court of Justice and ending free movement. Against that we’re having trouble recruiting nurses and fruit and vegetable pickers, looks like there might need to be complex negotiations to stay where we are on licensing and importing medicines, if we can, and there seems to be a good chance of difficulty with importing radio-isotopes for cancer treatment and other issues about nuclear energy.
Oh and the money for the NHS was in a unicorns saddllebags! And ‘we didn’t mean it anyway!'
If I had to choose between legal wrangling and staffing issues, I'd chose the latter every time...
(Note that’s labour with a small l!)
Incidentally, I’m becoming increasingly suspicious of our headline employment statistics. They really don’t seem to be related to what is actually happening.
It's not perfect, and I wish there was more export activity (and less import activity), but the economy has defied naysayers over the years. How many recessions has Uncle Vince predicted since 2010?
And Mr M, I’m delighted to see that your family members are now back in work. ‘For those who would work, ’tis hard to want. And wander for employ’ as a song has it.0 -
I assume it was thought that getting a majority but losing because of requirements for minimum turnout, or for maj > two thirds or whatever, would just encourage the kipper camp.rottenborough said:
One of which is that we live in a parliamentary democracy. It was constitutionally stupid to risk a referendum on a highly complex issue when a clear majority of MPs wanted to Remain. A Leave result in those circumstances was bound to lead to crisis.FF43 said:The interesting point is that the Brexit vote hasn't resolved things. You might expect once a vote has been taken a majority would say, let's get on with it. A consensus would be built with just a small fringe of diehards who still hold out. I think there are several reasons why that hasn't happened.
The solution might have been some kind of threshold, so that it was clear that the result was the settled will of the people (a 52-48 result is not the settled will).
Personally, Osborne was right, a referendum was a "crazy idea".0 -
Ironically, director of zombie classic "Night of the Living Dead" George A Romero is dead, but lives on...0
-
Newspapers at the weekend reported that the EU started marshalling its top negotiating teams the day that Cameron announced a referendum. We, meanwhile, did nothing as far as anyone can tell.Jonathan said:So why are the government making such an almighty hash of Brexit?
A) Brexit was always difficult /impossible given the two year process. lack of preparation from Cameron
C) Vote Leave made impossible promises to win the vote
D) A serious lack of talent at the top of politics
E) Fundamental weaknesses in the UK position
All of the above or something else?0 -
I find this akin to a situation where say the Labour party wins the GE with Corbyn in charge.
The powers-that-be find this intolerable and delay by all means the opening of parliament. Using legal challenges, complaining that a politician lied and therefore it's invalid, predicting doom and disaster and demanding a re-run of the ballot.
Even when parliament is re-opened, using the HoL to stop all bills that haven't been gerrymandered, demanding that the minority parties have equal votes, and running scare stories on the BBC in the vain hope that we "will come to our senses." in essence making the country ungovernable
At the first bad opinion poll, the protests will reach a crescendo. We need a new GE to break the deadlock will go the cry.
Undemocratic? Not us?0 -
Scrap HS2 and spend £56bn on fire-resistant housing, is what I'd do. Improving links between London and oop North doesn't revitalise oop North, it just speeds up the brain drain into the capital.0
-
That's interesting when you remember Charles's report of Cameron's negotiating.rottenborough said:
Newspapers at the weekend reported that the EU started marshalling its top negotiating teams the day that Cameron announced a referendum. We, meanwhile, did nothing as far as anyone can tell.Jonathan said:So why are the government making such an almighty hash of Brexit?
A) Brexit was always difficult /impossible given the two year process. lack of preparation from Cameron
C) Vote Leave made impossible promises to win the vote
D) A serious lack of talent at the top of politics
E) Fundamental weaknesses in the UK position
All of the above or something else?0 -
Who exactly is going to call this second referendum ?
A govt of national unity led by Hammond, Soubry, Chukka and Nikkla ? That would be quite a lot of "events"..0 -
Also RIP Martin Landau.foxinsoxuk said:Ironically, director of zombie classic "Night of the Living Dead" George A Romero is dead, but lives on...
0 -
£56bn ???Ishmael_Z said:Scrap HS2 and spend £56bn on fire-resistant housing, is what I'd do. Improving links between London and oop North doesn't revitalise oop North, it just speeds up the brain drain into the capital.
You're not up to date:
' Campaigners opposed to the HS2 high speed rail network have seized on claims the project will cost double the official estimate.
The claims HS2 will cost £111 billion, twice as much as the official £55.7 billion figure being used by Government and HS2 Ltd, were made in the Sunday Times newspaper.
The claims relate to an estimate prepared by Michael Byng which was commissioned by the Department for Transport. '
http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/claims-hs2-cost-set-double-133386630 -
You are probably right. This just shows how out of touch Cameron and fellow ministers were with voters. They assumed they would get a narrow win for Remain.Ishmael_Z said:
I assume it was thought that getting a majority but losing because of requirements for minimum turnout, or for maj > two thirds or whatever, would just encourage the kipper camp.rottenborough said:
One of which is that we live in a parliamentary democracy. It was constitutionally stupid to risk a referendum on a highly complex issue when a clear majority of MPs wanted to Remain. A Leave result in those circumstances was bound to lead to crisis.FF43 said:The interesting point is that the Brexit vote hasn't resolved things. You might expect once a vote has been taken a majority would say, let's get on with it. A consensus would be built with just a small fringe of diehards who still hold out. I think there are several reasons why that hasn't happened.
The solution might have been some kind of threshold, so that it was clear that the result was the settled will of the people (a 52-48 result is not the settled will).
Personally, Osborne was right, a referendum was a "crazy idea".0 -
The member of my family involved in practical exporting..... selling hi tech goods to countries on the Pacific Rim ....... is finding life difficult at the moment.hamiltonace said:
The U.K. Economy has many strengths with its fairly flexible job market. The downside is the massive costs loaded onto fixed capital assets. This creates an economy based mostly on labour. In addition many fixed assets that do exist are owned by foreigners. I estimate that my cost of capital in the U.K. on fixed assets is about 20% while in Switzerland where we have a sister company it is 4%. My average cost of skilled labour is £30k pa in Switzerland it is £60k. If we are to expand our exports this situation needs to change radically. It is easier to move labour than fixed assets. We don't want to end up like the PhilippinesMortimer said:
Really? It explains why cafes and bars are buzzing, and also why certain members of my family who had been long term unemployed (including several single mothers) are so proudly posting of their new jobs. I'm very proud of them. And also of the little changes in the Government's stewardship of the economy that has created the jobs.OldKingCole said:
But ending free movement is what’s indicating forthcoming labour crises.Mortimer said:
I'd never want to work on a project run by Remainers. What is being changed is legal and consitutional; tasks outstanding are merely staffing.OldKingCole said:So where are we at the moment; we’re getting ‘rid’ of the European Court of Justice and ending free movement. Against that we’re having trouble recruiting nurses and fruit and vegetable pickers, looks like there might need to be complex negotiations to stay where we are on licensing and importing medicines, if we can, and there seems to be a good chance of difficulty with importing radio-isotopes for cancer treatment and other issues about nuclear energy.
Oh and the money for the NHS was in a unicorns saddllebags! And ‘we didn’t mean it anyway!'
If I had to choose between legal wrangling and staffing issues, I'd chose the latter every time...
(Note that’s labour with a small l!)
Incidentally, I’m becoming increasingly suspicious of our headline employment statistics. They really don’t seem to be related to what is actually happening.
It's not perfect, and I wish there was more export activity (and less import activity), but the economy has defied naysayers over the years. How many recessions has Uncle Vince predicted since 2010?0 -
If the Brexit deal is defeated in Parliament, what else is the government going to do? Call a General Election?!TGOHF said:Who exactly is going to call this second referendum ?
A govt of national unity led by Hammond, Soubry, Chukka and Nikkla ? That would be quite a lot of "events"..0 -
We are leaving, there is no going back on that. The focus now should be on securing a Brexit deal which safeguards the economy and living standards. That means reining in the fundamentalist incompetents who are currently in charge of the process.0
