politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Don’t Diss the DUP. They could help put Labour into government
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Mr. B2, I'll probably ignore safety car bets until Hungary.
No further action over Vettel's wheel-banging:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/40488056
More or less what I expected, to be honest.0 -
A thought.
Could it be that May is bluffing; pretending to be BREXY while trying to make it fail?
Take the strange case of of Dr Liam Fox.
Would you give a GP with his history the tricky job of TRADE MINISTER if you actually wanted it to succeed?
......Liam Fox who lost his job for taking a chum on official trips for the FOREIGN office?
.......Liam Fox whose expenses overclaim was the largest in the Shadow Cabinet? Isn't this rather like giving a FOX the key to the hen-house?
Brexit is one scandal away from collapse. Perhaps she's smarter than she looks?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liam_Fox0 -
Chris Christie 15% approval rating !
Is that a record ?0 -
That's true but I don't think his views on the EU are strong either way. He did campaign for remain all be it half-heartedly so Brexit is certainly not a deeply held article of faith and I certainly wouldn't rule out a pivot back to remain if it gives him a path to winning.Richard_Tyndall said:
For better or worse Corbyn has never struck me as someone to compromise on his beliefs. This is the man who divorced his wife rather than be seen to compromise on his kid's schooling.RoyalBlue said:So much of Brexit is now dependent on whether Corbyn wants to bring down the Tories by pivoting to Remain, or to push through with his Leaver convictions.
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There is absolutely no ambiguity about Linda Quigley and Gerard McLoughlin.DecrepitJohnL said:
It's a question of hats. When they met Corbyn, were they wearing their Sinn Fein hats or their IRA hats? There is enough ambiguity to fudge the issue, should it become expedient.Cyclefree said:
Oh, did Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness have nothing to do with the IRA, then?DecrepitJohnL said:
By not talking about them? The DUP manage (or managed) to work with Sinn Fein which has IRA links and wants a united Ireland. And you seem to have accidentally typed "Corbyn's previous IRA links" rather than Sinn Fein links.CarlottaVance said:Mr Brind doesn't address how the DUP get past Corbyn's previous IRA links or avowed wish for a United Ireland - non-trivial matters......
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I believe he argues it was one of (many) necessary but not sufficient conditions ?DecrepitJohnL said:
Freedom of movement might be an issue but the much-revered Dominic Cummings wrote that the main reason Leave won was the £350 million for the NHS promise.HYUFD said:
There is an obligation for the government to control free movement which is the main reason Leave won a majority and hence also that means leaving the single market in all probability unless we can get the EU to agree to some delayed version of the transition controls on Eastern European migration Blair failed to imposeSouthamObserver said:
There is no obligation on the government to implement Brexit so cack-handedly, That it is doing such a catastrophically bad job is no-one's fault but its own.HYUFD said:
It is. At the end of the day Leave voters made their bed by voting Brexit and have to lie in it whether we have a Tory or Labour government now makes no difference to the fact they will be implementing the result Leave voters voted for. Plus the only reason Leave won more than 50% of the vote was because of the lack of controls on Eastern European migration under BlairSouthamObserver said:
Yep - good luck with that on the doorsteps. The government is not responsible for the mess it is making of Brexit, it's your fault for voting Leave; oh and Tony Blair's, too.HYUFD said:
No. other EU nationsSouthamObserver said:
The Tories own Brexit - they led the Leave and Remain campaigns, they headlined the debates,HYUFD said:
Not resultSouthamObserver said:
Being They are making an absolute Horlicks of it.RoyalBlue said:
You're much more interesting when you take the partisan spectacles off. Theresa May has been constant on no single market, no EU Customs Union, no freedom of movement and no ECJ jurisdiction since January.SouthamObserver said:The sheer incompetence of the Conservative party's approach to Brexit really is something to behold. They have no idea what they want, no understanding of what will happen when we do leave and no plan to deal with any of it. What
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/04/uk-manufacturers-brexit-cuts-business?CMP=share_btn_tw
It's your party that promises 'not being in the Customs union or single market but with all the benefits'. What would you call promising something by definition unachievable?
I'd call it lying.0 -
No the government and the Labour party have chosen the Brexit that was voted for ie leaving the EU and controlling free movement which therefore requires leaving the single market unless some deal can be done over transition controls as I saidSouthamObserver said:
No, the government's obligation is to secure Brexit. It chooses what kind of Brexit to pursue. As yet, it has failed to do so. This is the government's fault, no-one else's.HYUFD said:
There is an obligation for the government to control free movement which is the main reason Leave won a majority and hence also that means leaving the single market in all probability unless we can get the EU to agree to some delayed version of the transition controls on Eastern European migration Blair failed to imposeSouthamObserver said:
There is no obligation on the government to implement Brexit so cack-handedly, That it is doing such a catastrophically bad job is no-one's fault but its own.HYUFD said:
It is. At the end of the day Leave voters made their bed by voting Brexit and haveSouthamObserver said:
Yep - good luck with that on the doorsteps. The government is not responsible for the mess it is making of Brexit, it's your fault for voting Leave; oh and Tony Blair's, too.HYUFD said:
No. other EU nationsSouthamObserver said:
The Tories own Brexit - they led the Leave and Remain campaigns, they headlined the debates,HYUFD said:
Not resultSouthamObserver said:
Being They are making an absolute Horlicks of it.RoyalBlue said:
You're much more interesting when you take the partisan spectacles off. Theresa May has been constant on no single market, no EU Customs Union, no freedom of movement and no ECJ jurisdiction since January.SouthamObserver said:The sheer incompetence of the Conservative party's approach to Brexit really is something to behold. They have no idea what they want, no understanding of what will happen when we do leave and no plan to deal with any of it. What
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/04/uk-manufacturers-brexit-cuts-business?CMP=share_btn_tw
It's your party that promises 'not being in the Customs union or single market but with all the benefits'. What would you call promising something by definition unachievable?
I'd call it lying.0 -
More likely she's after a punishment Brexit. A crash out. That'll teach em she will say.Roger said:A thought.
Could it be that May is bluffing; pretending to be BREXY while trying to make it fail?
Take the strange case of of Dr Liam Fox.
Would you give a GP with his history the tricky job of TRADE MINISTER if you actually wanted it to succeed?
......Liam Fox who lost his job for taking a chum on official TRADE MISSIONS?
.......Liam Fox whose expenses overclaim was the largest in the Shadw Cabinet? Isn't this rather like giving a FOX the key to the hen-house?
Brexit is one scandal away from collapse. Perhaps she's smarter than she looks?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liam_Fox
Think of all that juicy austerity post crash out they can get their teeth into.
The great disappearing state. Perhaps.0 -
I'm surprised it's that high. Suntangate was hilarious!Pulpstar said:Chris Christie 15% approval rating !
Is that a record ?
He's term-limited now so he doesn't give a stuff.
Christie's only route in politics now is to get a job offer from someone who is notorious for sticking two fingers up at the biased media. So Christie is blatantly auditioning for a White House job by doing the same thing.0 -
Thanks very much - I will try that next time. Unfortunately if you get it wrong there doesn't seem to be any edit or delete function but it could be that I just don't know how to do it!Mortimer said:
You need matching pairs of < blockquotes > </ blockquotes>, otherwise it gets mangled....OllyT said:Just made a hash of trying to delete previous posts in reply because it was to long. Could someone explain how to do it properly. The last 2 paras are my response to HYUFD but I obviously did it wrong. Apologies
The safest thing to do is only delete text within blockquotes, rather than the code itself....0 -
No. 17 million Leave voters own Brexit, end of including plenty of Labour MPs. As a Tory Remain voter I resent being told I 'own' Brexit when a Labour Leave voter does not. In any case the ultimate blame for Brexit likes with Tony Blair and his failure to impose transition controls on migration from the new accession countries in 2004 unlike most other EU nationsOllyT said:
The Tories own Brexit - they led the Leave and Remain campaigns, they headlined the debates, they set the referendum agenda and they are now in power and have been throughout this entire period. Tory cabinet ministers told voters leaving would be pain-free and easy. And the Tories are now making a complete pig's ear of the exit process.HYUFD said:
Technically correct but in the eyes of most voters leaving the EU has always been a right wing Tory obsession, from Major's "bastards" to Tory MPs defecting to UKIP . As SO correctly states the whole issue from the ill-considered referendum to implementation has taken place on the Tories watch. The perception is the Tories do "own" it I'm afraid.
The supreme irony of course is that the end result of the machinations of Bill Cash,Farage et al is likely to be the most left wing government this country has seen in decades, unconstrained by EU regulation on nationalisation etc.
If Corbyn wins it will be because of the same anti austerity, anti financial sector forces driving the rise of Tsipras, Melenchon and Sanders, not because of Brexit0 -
We thought that when she appointed Boris to the FO.Roger said:A thought.
Could it be that May is bluffing; pretending to be BREXY while trying to make it fail?
Take the strange case of of Dr Liam Fox.
Would you give a GP with his history the tricky job of TRADE MINISTER if you actually wanted it to succeed?
......Liam Fox who lost his job for taking a chum on official trips for the FOREIGN office?
.......Liam Fox whose expenses overclaim was the largest in the Shadow Cabinet? Isn't this rather like giving a FOX the key to the hen-house?
Brexit is one scandal away from collapse. Perhaps she's smarter than she looks?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liam_Fox
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So the evidence is overwhelmingOldKingCole said:
We thought that when she appointed Boris to the FO.Roger said:A thought.
Could it be that May is bluffing; pretending to be BREXY while trying to make it fail?
Take the strange case of of Dr Liam Fox.
Would you give a GP with his history the tricky job of TRADE MINISTER if you actually wanted it to succeed?
......Liam Fox who lost his job for taking a chum on official trips for the FOREIGN office?
.......Liam Fox whose expenses overclaim was the largest in the Shadow Cabinet? Isn't this rather like giving a FOX the key to the hen-house?
Brexit is one scandal away from collapse. Perhaps she's smarter than she looks?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liam_Fox0 -
No. She is just someone who lacks imagination. We will get an even worse Brexit rather than an accidental Remain. Neither side will be happy with her.Roger said:A thought.
Could it be that May is bluffing; pretending to be BREXY while trying to make it fail?
Take the strange case of of Dr Liam Fox.
Would you give a GP with his history the tricky job of TRADE MINISTER if you actually wanted it to succeed?
......Liam Fox who lost his job for taking a chum on official trips for the FOREIGN office?
.......Liam Fox whose expenses overclaim was the largest in the Shadow Cabinet? Isn't this rather like giving a FOX the key to the hen-house?
Brexit is one scandal away from collapse. Perhaps she's smarter than she looks?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liam_Fox0 -
Indeed so. Unfortunately the electorate saw fit to deny us a confident government in control of events and in command of its brief. That's why I think the GE2017 result is set to be the most disastrous of my lifetime.IanB2 said:There's a lot more to it than that. The scope for FU's in the detail, as we seek to replace EU regulations on a myriad of detailed issues with our own bespoke arrangements, is huge. The scope for any one issue, for example farming subsidy or fishing, to spiral quickly into a political disaster, is also huge. Successful implementation would need a confident government in control of events and in command of its brief.
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Technically correct but in the eyes of most voters leaving the EU has always been a right wing Tory obsession, from Major's "bastards" to Tory MPs defecting to UKIP . As SO correctly states the whole issue from the ill-considered referendum to implementation has taken place on the Tories watch. The perception is the Tories do "own" it I'm afraid.HYUFD said:
No. 17 million Leave voters own Brexit, end of including plenty of Labour MPs. As a Tory Remain voter I resent being told I 'own' Brexit when a Labour Leave voter does not. In any case the ultimate blame for Brexit likes with Tony Blair and his failure to impose transition controls on migration from the new accession countries in 2004 unlike most other EU nationsOllyT said:
The Tories own Brexit - they led the Leave and Remain campaigns, they headlined the debates, they set the referendum agenda and they are now in power and have been throughout this entire period. Tory cabinet ministers told voters leaving would be pain-free and easy. And the Tories are now making a complete pig's ear of the exit process.HYUFD said:
The supreme irony of course is that the end result of the machinations of Bill Cash,Farage et al is likely to be the most left wing government this country has seen in decades, unconstrained by EU regulation on nationalisation etc.
If Corbyn wins it will be because of the same anti austerity, anti financial sector forces driving the rise of Tsipras, Melenchon and Sanders, not because of Brexit
Yes, in part, but my point was what he will now be able to do in government because we are out of the EU0 -
Must say the same thought has crossed my mind.Roger said:A thought.
Could it be that May is bluffing; pretending to be BREXY while trying to make it fail?
Take the strange case of of Dr Liam Fox.
Would you give a GP with his history the tricky job of TRADE MINISTER if you actually wanted it to succeed?
......Liam Fox who lost his job for taking a chum on official trips for the FOREIGN office?
.......Liam Fox whose expenses overclaim was the largest in the Shadow Cabinet? Isn't this rather like giving a FOX the key to the hen-house?
Brexit is one scandal away from collapse. Perhaps she's smarter than she looks?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liam_Fox0 -
Top right hand corner of your post - the little cog. It gives you 6 mins to edit.OllyT said:
Thanks very much - I will try that next time. Unfortunately if you get it wrong there doesn't seem to be any edit or delete function but it could be that I just don't know how to do it!Mortimer said:
You need matching pairs of < blockquotes > </ blockquotes>, otherwise it gets mangled....OllyT said:Just made a hash of trying to delete previous posts in reply because it was to long. Could someone explain how to do it properly. The last 2 paras are my response to HYUFD but I obviously did it wrong. Apologies
The safest thing to do is only delete text within blockquotes, rather than the code itself....0 -
Yes, the appointment of Liam was an odd one. With his smouldering good looks and pop-babe past, I can only think that Theresa's intention was to add a bit of sexiness to the Brexit proceedings. Perhaps having the glamorous doctor in place, gallivanting around the globe securing his trade deals with Australia, New Zealand, Canada and Ghana, was considered Brexit's answer to Poldark.Roger said:A thought.
Could it be that May is bluffing; pretending to be BREXY while trying to make it fail?
Take the strange case of of Dr Liam Fox.
Would you give a GP with his history the tricky job of TRADE MINISTER if you actually wanted it to succeed?
......Liam Fox who lost his job for taking a chum on official trips for the FOREIGN office?
.......Liam Fox whose expenses overclaim was the largest in the Shadw Cabinet? Isn't this rather like giving a FOX the key to the hen-house?
Brexit is one scandal away from collapse. Perhaps she's smarter than she looks?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liam_Fox0 -
Mr. Nabavi, so far.0
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Yes well.... there have been a few political disasters over the last year or so. GE2017 is merely one of them.Richard_Nabavi said:
Indeed so. Unfortunately the electorate saw fit to deny us a confident government in control of events and in command of its brief. That's why I think the GE2017 result is set to be the most disastrous of my lifetime.IanB2 said:There's a lot more to it than that. The scope for FU's in the detail, as we seek to replace EU regulations on a myriad of detailed issues with our own bespoke arrangements, is huge. The scope for any one issue, for example farming subsidy or fishing, to spiral quickly into a political disaster, is also huge. Successful implementation would need a confident government in control of events and in command of its brief.
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Does anyone really know why she gave Fox the job? It seems a baffling appointement.0
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The most disastrous result was GE2015. If Ed Miliband had won or Cameron had been dependent on the LibDems again you'd have a basically competent government quietly getting on with deficit reduction.Richard_Nabavi said:
Indeed so. Unfortunately the electorate saw fit to deny us a confident government in control of events and in command of its brief. That's why I think the GE2017 result is set to be the most disastrous of my lifetime.IanB2 said:There's a lot more to it than that. The scope for FU's in the detail, as we seek to replace EU regulations on a myriad of detailed issues with our own bespoke arrangements, is huge. The scope for any one issue, for example farming subsidy or fishing, to spiral quickly into a political disaster, is also huge. Successful implementation would need a confident government in control of events and in command of its brief.
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Thanks very much.GeoffM said:
Top right hand corner of your post - the little cog. It gives you 6 mins to edit.OllyT said:
Thanks very much - I will try that next time. Unfortunately if you get it wrong there doesn't seem to be any edit or delete function but it could be that I just don't know how to do it!Mortimer said:
You need matching pairs of < blockquotes > </ blockquotes>, otherwise it gets mangled....OllyT said:Just made a hash of trying to delete previous posts in reply because it was to long. Could someone explain how to do it properly. The last 2 paras are my response to HYUFD but I obviously did it wrong. Apologies
The safest thing to do is only delete text within blockquotes, rather than the code itself....0 -
The government has chosen not to be in the single market and not to be in the customs union.SouthamObserver said:
No, the government's obligation is to secure Brexit. It chooses what kind of Brexit to pursue. As yet, it has failed to do so. This is the government's fault, no-one else's.HYUFD said:
There is an obligation for the government to control free movement which is the main reason Leave won a majority and hence also that means leaving the single market in all probability unless we can get the EU to agree to some delayed version of the transition controls on Eastern European migration Blair failed to imposeSouthamObserver said:
There is no obligation on the government to implement Brexit so cack-handedly, That it is doing such a catastrophically bad job is no-one's fault but its own.HYUFD said:
It is. At the end of the day Leave voters made their bed by voting Brexit and have to lie in it whether we have a Tory or Labour government now makes no difference to the fact they will be implementing the result Leave voters voted for. Plus the only reason Leave won more than 50% of the vote was because of the lack of controls on Eastern European migration under BlairSouthamObserver said:
Yep - good luck with that on the doorsteps. The government is not responsible for the mess it is making of Brexit, it's your fault for voting Leave; oh and Tony Blair's, too.HYUFD said:
No. other EU nationsSouthamObserver said:
The Tories own Brexit - they led the Leave and Remain campaigns, they headlined the debates,HYUFD said:
Not resultSouthamObserver said:
Being They are making an absolute Horlicks of it.RoyalBlue said:SouthamObserver said:The sheer incompetence of the Conservative party's approach to Brexit really is something to behold. They have no idea what they want, no understanding of what will happen when we do leave and no plan to deal with any of it. What
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/04/uk-manufacturers-brexit-cuts-business?CMP=share_btn_tw
Once this is determined, other issues are not a choice for the government but for negotiation with the remainder of the EU.0 -
More on this. May put Fox, Davies and Johnson in charge of these departments precisely so no-one would accuse her of having a secret Remain agenda. Which of course you have just done... But I am sure she didn't consider the possibility that their gross incompetence might suggest the same thing (mistakenly).FF43 said:
No. She is just someone who lacks imagination. We will get an even worse Brexit rather than an accidental Remain. Neither side will be happy with her.Roger said:A thought.
Could it be that May is bluffing; pretending to be BREXY while trying to make it fail?
Take the strange case of of Dr Liam Fox.
Would you give a GP with his history the tricky job of TRADE MINISTER if you actually wanted it to succeed?
......Liam Fox who lost his job for taking a chum on official trips for the FOREIGN office?
.......Liam Fox whose expenses overclaim was the largest in the Shadow Cabinet? Isn't this rather like giving a FOX the key to the hen-house?
Brexit is one scandal away from collapse. Perhaps she's smarter than she looks?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liam_Fox0 -
If Corbyn wins it will be because of the same anti austerity, anti financial sector forces driving the rise of Tsipras, Melenchon and Sanders, not because of BrexitOllyT said:
Technically correct but in the eyes of most voters leaving the EU has always been a right wing Tory obsession, from Major's "bastards" to Tory MPs defecting to UKIP . As SO correctly states the whole issue from the ill-considered referendum to implementation has taken place on the Tories watch. The perception is the Tories do "own" it I'm afraid.HYUFD said:
No. 17 million Leave voters own Brexit, end of including plenty of Labour MPs. As a Tory Remain voter I resent being told I 'own' Brexit when a Labour Leave voter does not. In any case the ultimate blame for Brexit likes with Tony Blair and his failure to impose transition controls on migration from the new accession countries in 2004 unlike most other EU nationsOllyT said:
The Tories own Brexit - they led the Leave and Remain campaigns, they headlined the debates, they set the referendum agenda and they are now in power and have been throughout this entire period. Tory cabinet ministers told voters leaving would be pain-free and easy. And the Tories are now making a complete pig's ear of the exit process.HYUFD said:
The supreme irony of course is that the end result of the machinations of Bill Cash,Farage et al is likely to be the most left wing government this country has seen in decades, unconstrained by EU regulation on nationalisation etc.
Yes, in part, but my point was what he will now be able to do in government because we are out of the EU
That's what I want. True choice and accountability.
If we vote in Corbyn then we vote him in and we live with the consequences. I don't want a foreign power limiting his powers. Power comes from the British people and is exercised by our own govt. Authority must never again become a gift granted to us from an overseas unelected hostile force.0 -
They're friends.Dura_Ace said:Does anyone really know why she gave Fox the job? It seems a baffling appointement.
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I think that there is one more level of irony yet to go... that a Tory govt facing a certain election loss to a Marxist Labour has to stop Brexit and stay in the EU so as to restrain the "Nationalisation of Everything"OllyT said:The supreme irony of course is that the end result of the machinations of Bill Cash,Farage et al is likely to be the most left wing government this country has seen in decades, unconstrained by EU regulation on nationalisation etc.
That, in my book, would be the supreme irony.0 -
Agreed, as I have said a few times if I could have voted for the Con/LD coalition in 2015 and 2017 I would have done.edmundintokyo said:
The most disastrous result was GE2015. If Ed Miliband had won or Cameron had been dependent on the LibDems again you'd have a basically competent government quietly getting on with deficit reduction.Richard_Nabavi said:
Indeed so. Unfortunately the electorate saw fit to deny us a confident government in control of events and in command of its brief. That's why I think the GE2017 result is set to be the most disastrous of my lifetime.IanB2 said:There's a lot more to it than that. The scope for FU's in the detail, as we seek to replace EU regulations on a myriad of detailed issues with our own bespoke arrangements, is huge. The scope for any one issue, for example farming subsidy or fishing, to spiral quickly into a political disaster, is also huge. Successful implementation would need a confident government in control of events and in command of its brief.
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How is it even remotely possible that May, having faced 4 weeks of hostile media, criticism, rebellion and embarrassment can be 6 points ahead of Corbyn who has been quietly beatified as best PM?
Could it be that everything is complete turd right now?0 -
I don't think Dr Fox has done too badly really. Same with David Davis (and maybe even Boris?) they haven't been the disaster most people expected when she appointed them.Dura_Ace said:Does anyone really know why she gave Fox the job? It seems a baffling appointement.
It's May herself who has been a let-down.0 -
I don't think an Ed Miliband government would have been a basically competent government quietly getting on with deficit reduction, and especially not one in thrall to the SNP.edmundintokyo said:The most disastrous result was GE2015. If Ed Miliband had won or Cameron had been dependent on the LibDems again you'd have a basically competent government quietly getting on with deficit reduction.
What we got in 2015 was a very comptent government. Unfortunately the referendum didn't go quite according to plan, but the counter-factual of no referendum fails because the issue wouldn't have gone away. In any case, I'm moderately sure that the referendum would still have happened if there had been a Con/LD coalition or other arrangement; the LibDems were making moderately positive noises about the possibility, and it would surely have beeen a Con red line.0 -
Cough! *Splutter*!!! I am hoping you are being sarcastic.Stark_Dawning said:Yes, the appointment of Liam was an odd one. With his smouldering good looks and pop-babe past, I can only think that Theresa's intention was to add a bit of sexiness to the Brexit proceedings. Perhaps having the glamorous doctor in place, gallivanting around the globe securing his trade deals with Australia, New Zealand, Canada and Ghana, was considered Brexit's answer to Poldark.
Now, if he looked like David Tennant .....
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Given the latest Survation poll gives a Tory lead claiming the next general election is a certain Labour victory shows hubris has switched from the blues to the redsBeverley_C said:
I think that there is one more level of irony yet to go... that a Tory govt facing a certain election loss to a Marxist Labour has to stop Brexit and stay in the EU so as to restrain the "Nationalisation of Everything"OllyT said:The supreme irony of course is that the end result of the machinations of Bill Cash,Farage et al is likely to be the most left wing government this country has seen in decades, unconstrained by EU regulation on nationalisation etc.
That, in my book, would be the supreme irony.0 -
I was positing it as a scenario, not as a predictionHYUFD said:
Given the latest Survation poll gives a Tory lead claiming the next general election is a certain Labour victory shows hubris has switched from the blues to the redsBeverley_C said:
I think that there is one more level of irony yet to go... that a Tory govt facing a certain election loss to a Marxist Labour has to stop Brexit and stay in the EU so as to restrain the "Nationalisation of Everything"OllyT said:The supreme irony of course is that the end result of the machinations of Bill Cash,Farage et al is likely to be the most left wing government this country has seen in decades, unconstrained by EU regulation on nationalisation etc.
That, in my book, would be the supreme irony.0 -
Ultimately the Europe issue has plagued our governments of all colours since the late 80s. It was never going to go away until we voted to Leave if not in 2016 then eventually. Being a second-tier [as far as the EU is concerned] nation in the EU but outside the Eurozone was never going to work long-term for us.Richard_Nabavi said:
I don't think an Ed Miliband government would have been a basically competent government quietly getting on with deficit reduction, and especially not one in thrall to the SNP.edmundintokyo said:The most disastrous result was GE2015. If Ed Miliband had won or Cameron had been dependent on the LibDems again you'd have a basically competent government quietly getting on with deficit reduction.
What we got in 2015 was a very comptent government. Unfortunately the referendum didn't go quite according to plan, but the counter-factual of no referendum fails because the issue wouldn't have gone away.
As difficult as the next few years may be it is like ripping off a bandage. At least now the issue is being dealt with rather than getting kicked perpetually down the road building up more and more resentment.0 -
Oh God, the worst Doctor in the history of Who. Horrible horrible luvvie of the most extreme type.Beverley_C said:
Cough! *Splutter*!!! I am hoping you are being sarcastic.Stark_Dawning said:Yes, the appointment of Liam was an odd one. With his smouldering good looks and pop-babe past, I can only think that Theresa's intention was to add a bit of sexiness to the Brexit proceedings. Perhaps having the glamorous doctor in place, gallivanting around the globe securing his trade deals with Australia, New Zealand, Canada and Ghana, was considered Brexit's answer to Poldark.
Now, if he looked like David Tennant .....
Chris Eccleston is your man for Brexiting Gallifrey.0 -
The issue wouldn't have gone away but a lot of issues haven't gone away. The death penalty issue hasn't gone away; lots of people are quite serious about wanting it back. The reason we're not all arguing about the death penalty right now is because MPs don't think it's a good idea. If you'd had a PM who had a party management problem and decided to have a referendum on it, it could well be a seriously live issue right now.Richard_Nabavi said:
I don't think an Ed Miliband government would have been a basically competent government quietly getting on with deficit reduction, and especially not one in thrall to the SNP.edmundintokyo said:The most disastrous result was GE2015. If Ed Miliband had won or Cameron had been dependent on the LibDems again you'd have a basically competent government quietly getting on with deficit reduction.
What we got in 2015 was a very comptent government. Unfortunately the referendum didn't go quite according to plan, but the counter-factual of no referendum fails because the issue wouldn't have gone away.0 -
Given the fact Ed Miliband would have refused a referendum, the likelihood is that support for one have grown whilst the Conservatives were in opposition, with either a further Eurosceptic position being taken, or UKIP growing further in strength, or both.Richard_Nabavi said:
I don't think an Ed Miliband government would have been a basically competent government quietly getting on with deficit reduction, and especially not one in thrall to the SNP.edmundintokyo said:The most disastrous result was GE2015. If Ed Miliband had won or Cameron had been dependent on the LibDems again you'd have a basically competent government quietly getting on with deficit reduction.
What we got in 2015 was a very comptent government. Unfortunately the referendum didn't go quite according to plan, but the counter-factual of no referendum fails because the issue wouldn't have gone away. In any case, I'm moderately sure that the referendum would still have happened if there had been a Con/LD coalition or other arrangement; the LibDems were making moderately positive noises about the possibility, and it would surely have beeen a Con red line.0 -
The can-kicks and the resentment have hardly even started. There's (probably) going to be a deal, the pro-EU people are going to simmer with rage and the anti-EU people are going to go ballistic at the betrayal. Everybody is going to promise to renegotiate it then get elected and fail, it's going to go on and on.Philip_Thompson said:As difficult as the next few years may be it is like ripping off a bandage. At least now the issue is being dealt with rather than getting kicked perpetually down the road building up more and more resentment.
0 -
I wouldnt want to guess either way at the moment, but a 1 point Tory lead is hardly cause for the bunting to come out.HYUFD said:
Given the latest Survation poll gives a Tory lead claiming the next general election is a certain Labour victory shows hubris has switched from the blues to the redsBeverley_C said:
I think that there is one more level of irony yet to go... that a Tory govt facing a certain election loss to a Marxist Labour has to stop Brexit and stay in the EU so as to restrain the "Nationalisation of Everything"OllyT said:The supreme irony of course is that the end result of the machinations of Bill Cash,Farage et al is likely to be the most left wing government this country has seen in decades, unconstrained by EU regulation on nationalisation etc.
That, in my book, would be the supreme irony.
Corbyn has massively improved his own personal ratings (including fit to be PM by a massive 20 poins or so).0 -
Or people, like with the death penalty, would have carried on without caring too much about it.Casino_Royale said:
Given the fact Ed Miliband would have refused a referendum, the likelihood is that support for one have grown whilst the Conservatives were in opposition, with either a further Eurosceptic position being taken, or UKIP growing further in strength, or both.Richard_Nabavi said:
I don't think an Ed Miliband government would have been a basically competent government quietly getting on with deficit reduction, and especially not one in thrall to the SNP.edmundintokyo said:The most disastrous result was GE2015. If Ed Miliband had won or Cameron had been dependent on the LibDems again you'd have a basically competent government quietly getting on with deficit reduction.
What we got in 2015 was a very comptent government. Unfortunately the referendum didn't go quite according to plan, but the counter-factual of no referendum fails because the issue wouldn't have gone away. In any case, I'm moderately sure that the referendum would still have happened if there had been a Con/LD coalition or other arrangement; the LibDems were making moderately positive noises about the possibility, and it would surely have beeen a Con red line.0 -
Except the open wound will now become gangrenous affecting the life of the patient. The idea that the referendum puts the issue to bed is the biggest false premise of them all. The EU becomes a far bigger problem for us outside than it ever was while we were members.Philip_Thompson said:
Ultimately the Europe issue has plagued our governments of all colours since the late 80s. It was never going to go away until we voted to Leave if not in 2016 then eventually. Being a second-tier [as far as the EU is concerned] nation in the EU but outside the Eurozone was never going to work long-term for us.Richard_Nabavi said:
I don't think an Ed Miliband government would have been a basically competent government quietly getting on with deficit reduction, and especially not one in thrall to the SNP.edmundintokyo said:The most disastrous result was GE2015. If Ed Miliband had won or Cameron had been dependent on the LibDems again you'd have a basically competent government quietly getting on with deficit reduction.
What we got in 2015 was a very comptent government. Unfortunately the referendum didn't go quite according to plan, but the counter-factual of no referendum fails because the issue wouldn't have gone away.
As difficult as the next few years may be it is like ripping off a bandage. At least now the issue is being dealt with rather than getting kicked perpetually down the road building up more and more resentment.0 -
Oh this old chestnut again?edmundintokyo said:
The issue wouldn't have gone away but a lot of issues haven't gone away. The death penalty issue hasn't gone away; lots of people are quite serious about wanting it back. The reason we're not all arguing about the death penalty right now is because MPs don't think it's a good idea. If you'd had a PM who had a party management problem and decided to have a referendum on it, it could well be a seriously live issue right now.Richard_Nabavi said:
I don't think an Ed Miliband government would have been a basically competent government quietly getting on with deficit reduction, and especially not one in thrall to the SNP.edmundintokyo said:The most disastrous result was GE2015. If Ed Miliband had won or Cameron had been dependent on the LibDems again you'd have a basically competent government quietly getting on with deficit reduction.
What we got in 2015 was a very comptent government. Unfortunately the referendum didn't go quite according to plan, but the counter-factual of no referendum fails because the issue wouldn't have gone away.
The lack of the death penalty isn't causing people standards of living hardship. It isn't causing their wages to stagnate. It isn't providing massive competition in the job market for lower paid jobs. It isn't adding 100s of thousands of residents each year competing for public service provision and housing.
It is simply incomparable.0 -
Chris Eccleston was OK as the Dr, but not as good looking. He never quite mastered the moody, smouldering look.dyedwoolie said:
Oh God, the worst Doctor in the history of Who. Horrible horrible luvvie of the most extreme type.Beverley_C said:
Cough! *Splutter*!!! I am hoping you are being sarcastic.Stark_Dawning said:Yes, the appointment of Liam was an odd one. With his smouldering good looks and pop-babe past, I can only think that Theresa's intention was to add a bit of sexiness to the Brexit proceedings. Perhaps having the glamorous doctor in place, gallivanting around the globe securing his trade deals with Australia, New Zealand, Canada and Ghana, was considered Brexit's answer to Poldark.
Now, if he looked like David Tennant .....
Chris Eccleston is your man for Brexiting Gallifrey.0 -
You see that's because he played the Doctor as an unwilling genocide tragic alien rather than as Mr Darcy. Tennant is as close to guff as an actor gets. Imho of courseBeverley_C said:
Chris Eccleston was OK as the Dr, but not as good looking. He never quite mastered the moody, smouldering look.dyedwoolie said:
Oh God, the worst Doctor in the history of Who. Horrible horrible luvvie of the most extreme type.Beverley_C said:
Cough! *Splutter*!!! I am hoping you are being sarcastic.Stark_Dawning said:Yes, the appointment of Liam was an odd one. With his smouldering good looks and pop-babe past, I can only think that Theresa's intention was to add a bit of sexiness to the Brexit proceedings. Perhaps having the glamorous doctor in place, gallivanting around the globe securing his trade deals with Australia, New Zealand, Canada and Ghana, was considered Brexit's answer to Poldark.
Now, if he looked like David Tennant .....
Chris Eccleston is your man for Brexiting Gallifrey.
0 -
Brilliant disconnect here:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jul/03/damning-government-report-shows-scale-of-public-sector-pay-cuts
Headline:
Damning government report shows depth of public sector pay cuts
Teachers, nurses and police officers have seen their take home pay fall or stagnate in real terms following a decade of salary freezes, analysis shows
Reality, in the very same article:
The new report found a 3% drop in median hourly earnings between 2005 and 2015 for workers in 32 public sector occupations whose salaries are set by the government on the advice of independent pay review bodies.
It found median hourly pay fell by an even greater amount – 6% – during that period for workers across the board, as the recession of 2008 hit wages hardest in the private sector
In other words, contrary to all the screaming, public sector workers have been protected from the worst effects of the crash.
You wouldn't know that if you listen to the BBC, would you?0 -
Tom Baker is clearly the best Doctor. Those who disagree will receive no jelly babies.0
-
We agree - the government chooses. It owns its choice and the consequences of it. The absolute shambles we are currently watching is entirely the government's responsibility. Negotiating with itself via the press is a new low point, but not the last, I'm sure.HYUFD said:
No the government and the Labour party have chosen the Brexit that was voted for ie leaving the EU and controlling free movement which therefore requires leaving the single market unless some deal can be done over transition controls as I saidSouthamObserver said:
No, the government's obligation is to secure Brexit. It chooses what kind of Brexit to pursue. As yet, it has failed to do so. This is the government's fault, no-one else's.HYUFD said:
There is an obligation for theo imposeSouthamObserver said:
There is no obligation on the government to implement Brexit so cack-handedly, That it is doing such a catastrophically bad job is no-one's fault but its own.HYUFD said:
It is. At the end of the day Leave voters made their bed by voting Brexit and haveSouthamObserver said:
Yep - good luck with that on the doorsteps. The government is not responsible for the mess it is making of Brexit, it's your fault for voting Leave; oh and Tony Blair's, too.HYUFD said:
No. other EU nationsSouthamObserver said:
The Tories own Brexit - they led the Leave and Remain campaigns, they headlined the debates,HYUFD said:
Not resultSouthamObserver said:
Being They are making an absolute Horlicks of it.RoyalBlue said:
You're much more interesting when you take the partisan spectacles off. Theresa May has been constant on no single market, no EU Customs Union, no freedom of movement and no ECJ jurisdiction since January.SouthamObserver said:The sheer incompetence of the Conservative party's approach to Brexit really is something to behold. They have no idea what they want, no understanding of what will happen when we do leave and no plan to deal with any of it. What
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/04/uk-manufacturers-brexit-cuts-business?CMP=share_btn_tw
It's your party that promises 'not being in the Customs union or single market but with all the benefits'. What would you call promising something by definition unachievable?
I'd call it lying.
0 -
Saturday's jelly baby moment tends to agree with youMorris_Dancer said:Tom Baker is clearly the best Doctor. Those who disagree will receive no jelly babies.
0 -
So an unwilling genocide tragic alien is just the chap to fix our post-Brexit future. Where can we find one?dyedwoolie said:
You see that's because he played the Doctor as an unwilling genocide tragic alien rather than as Mr Darcy. Tennant is as close to guff as an actor gets. Imho of courseBeverley_C said:
Chris Eccleston was OK as the Dr, but not as good looking. He never quite mastered the moody, smouldering look.dyedwoolie said:
Oh God, the worst Doctor in the history of Who. Horrible horrible luvvie of the most extreme type.Beverley_C said:
Cough! *Splutter*!!! I am hoping you are being sarcastic.Stark_Dawning said:Yes, the appointment of Liam was an odd one. With his smouldering good looks and pop-babe past, I can only think that Theresa's intention was to add a bit of sexiness to the Brexit proceedings. Perhaps having the glamorous doctor in place, gallivanting around the globe securing his trade deals with Australia, New Zealand, Canada and Ghana, was considered Brexit's answer to Poldark.
Now, if he looked like David Tennant .....
Chris Eccleston is your man for Brexiting Gallifrey.
0 -
I'm sure the greys can put up a stalking horse of that type.FF43 said:
So an unwilling genocide tragic alien is just the chap to fix our post-Brexit future. Where can we find one?dyedwoolie said:
You see that's because he played the Doctor as an unwilling genocide tragic alien rather than as Mr Darcy. Tennant is as close to guff as an actor gets. Imho of courseBeverley_C said:
Chris Eccleston was OK as the Dr, but not as good looking. He never quite mastered the moody, smouldering look.dyedwoolie said:
Oh God, the worst Doctor in the history of Who. Horrible horrible luvvie of the most extreme type.Beverley_C said:
Cough! *Splutter*!!! I am hoping you are being sarcastic.Stark_Dawning said:Yes, the appointment of Liam was an odd one. With his smouldering good looks and pop-babe past, I can only think that Theresa's intention was to add a bit of sexiness to the Brexit proceedings. Perhaps having the glamorous doctor in place, gallivanting around the globe securing his trade deals with Australia, New Zealand, Canada and Ghana, was considered Brexit's answer to Poldark.
Now, if he looked like David Tennant .....
Chris Eccleston is your man for Brexiting Gallifrey.0 -
That thought had also crossed my mind. The wierd thing is that the Momentum grip on Labour has created a topsy turvey politics. A revolutionary inclined clique lead a major social demcratic party. They are a small minority in the parliamentary party and do not have anything approaching a revolutionary mass movment behind them.Beverley_C said:
I think that there is one more level of irony yet to go... that a Tory govt facing a certain election loss to a Marxist Labour has to stop Brexit and stay in the EU so as to restrain the "Nationalisation of Everything"OllyT said:The supreme irony of course is that the end result of the machinations of Bill Cash,Farage et al is likely to be the most left wing government this country has seen in decades, unconstrained by EU regulation on nationalisation etc.
That, in my book, would be the supreme irony.
Momentum is a coalition and has enough members to keep a grip of many parts of the Labour party but the vast majority of Corbyn's supporters are miles away from revolutionary politics and the labour movement as a whole is quite weak and not revolutionary. I think Milne and McDonell believe that they should try and push through a radical programme and the resulting chaos can be used to build support rather than lose it. The problems (which would be momentous) being blamed on capitalist and US plots. I think it would be a very damaging fiasco.0 -
Conservatives who disagree will receive no babies to eat .....Morris_Dancer said:Tom Baker is clearly the best Doctor. Those who disagree will receive no jelly babies.
0 -
I have always had a soft spot for Tom Baker as the DrMorris_Dancer said:Tom Baker is clearly the best Doctor. Those who disagree will receive no jelly babies.
0 -
Mr. Nabavi, I fear expecting impartial, intelligent and accurate political reporting is a road to unending disappointment.0
-
Or the government! It's not the BBC's fault the cabinet Brexiteers have decided to use public sector pay as a stick with which to beat the Chancellor. Again, this is one the Tories are going to have to own.Richard_Nabavi said:Brilliant disconnect here:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jul/03/damning-government-report-shows-scale-of-public-sector-pay-cuts
Headline:
Damning government report shows depth of public sector pay cuts
Teachers, nurses and police officers have seen their take home pay fall or stagnate in real terms following a decade of salary freezes, analysis shows
Reality, in the very same article:
The new report found a 3% drop in median hourly earnings between 2005 and 2015 for workers in 32 public sector occupations whose salaries are set by the government on the advice of independent pay review bodies.
It found median hourly pay fell by an even greater amount – 6% – during that period for workers across the board, as the recession of 2008 hit wages hardest in the private sector
In other words, contrary to all the screaming, public sector workers have been protected from the worst effects of the crash.
You wouldn't know that if you listen to the BBC, would you?
0 -
I cannot see anything in the next five years that will not result in a damaging fiasco. I sincerely believe that the UK is on a road to ruin and it is entirely self-inflicted.NorthofStoke said:The problems (which would be momentous) being blamed on capitalist and US plots. I think it would be a very damaging fiasco.
0 -
Like the life of Canadians is imperiled by not being ruled by President Trump?FF43 said:
Except the open wound will now become gangrenous affecting the life of the patient. The idea that the referendum puts the issue to bed is the biggest false premise of them all. The EU becomes a far bigger problem for us outside than it ever was while we were members.Philip_Thompson said:
Ultimately the Europe issue has plagued our governments of all colours since the late 80s. It was never going to go away until we voted to Leave if not in 2016 then eventually. Being a second-tier [as far as the EU is concerned] nation in the EU but outside the Eurozone was never going to work long-term for us.Richard_Nabavi said:
I don't think an Ed Miliband government would have been a basically competent government quietly getting on with deficit reduction, and especially not one in thrall to the SNP.edmundintokyo said:The most disastrous result was GE2015. If Ed Miliband had won or Cameron had been dependent on the LibDems again you'd have a basically competent government quietly getting on with deficit reduction.
What we got in 2015 was a very comptent government. Unfortunately the referendum didn't go quite according to plan, but the counter-factual of no referendum fails because the issue wouldn't have gone away.
As difficult as the next few years may be it is like ripping off a bandage. At least now the issue is being dealt with rather than getting kicked perpetually down the road building up more and more resentment.
Like the life of the Japanese is imperiled by not being ruled by the Communist Party of China?
Like the life of Kiwis is imperiled by not being ruled by Australia?
I don't see any of those nationals campaigning to be joining their larger neighbour. We either needed to be full members of the EU (Eurozone, Schengen, the works) or not at all.0 -
This is true. I am afraid that the good government of the Cameron/Osborne period is not going to come back anytime soon. It was excellent while it lasted.SouthamObserver said:Or the government! It's not the BBC's fault the cabinet Brexiteers have decided to use public sector pay as a stick with which to beat the Chancellor. Again, this is one the Tories are going to have to own.
0 -
Out is out. Once we are out then any deal is going to be on the basis as deals we make with nations all the time globally. At that point it becomes Foreign Affairs rather than domestic politics.edmundintokyo said:
The can-kicks and the resentment have hardly even started. There's (probably) going to be a deal, the pro-EU people are going to simmer with rage and the anti-EU people are going to go ballistic at the betrayal. Everybody is going to promise to renegotiate it then get elected and fail, it's going to go on and on.Philip_Thompson said:As difficult as the next few years may be it is like ripping off a bandage. At least now the issue is being dealt with rather than getting kicked perpetually down the road building up more and more resentment.
0 -
Indeed, also can Tory Leavers tell me when their prediction that only a Leave vote would finally unite the Tory party will be realised?Richard_Nabavi said:
This is true. I am afraid that the good government of the Cameron/Osborne period is not going to come back anytime soon. It was excellent while it lasted.SouthamObserver said:Or the government! It's not the BBC's fault the cabinet Brexiteers have decided to use public sector pay as a stick with which to beat the Chancellor. Again, this is one the Tories are going to have to own.
0 -
Mr. Eagles, to be fair, the party was united until May buggered it up.0
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at her Lancaster House speechMorris_Dancer said:Mr. Eagles, to be fair, the party was united until May buggered it up.
0 -
@rafaelbehr: This is extraordinary. UK govt had no position on what wanted from Brexit but May set clock running anyway. Now https://twitter.com/lionelbarber/status/8821651429260001290
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Here's another disconnect.Richard_Nabavi said:Brilliant disconnect here:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jul/03/damning-government-report-shows-scale-of-public-sector-pay-cuts
Headline:
Damning government report shows depth of public sector pay cuts
Teachers, nurses and police officers have seen their take home pay fall or stagnate in real terms following a decade of salary freezes, analysis shows
Reality, in the very same article:
The new report found a 3% drop in median hourly earnings between 2005 and 2015 for workers in 32 public sector occupations whose salaries are set by the government on the advice of independent pay review bodies.
It found median hourly pay fell by an even greater amount – 6% – during that period for workers across the board, as the recession of 2008 hit wages hardest in the private sector
In other words, contrary to all the screaming, public sector workers have been protected from the worst effects of the crash.
You wouldn't know that if you listen to the BBC, would you?
The chancellor you describe as skilfully managing the economy has presided over a decade of falling wages. Indeed UK seems to be the only country with growth that as falling wages.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/83e7e87e-fe64-11e6-96f8-3700c5664d300 -
We are in quite a fix here in the UK. Our two main parties both appear to have large components which are toxic to the good of the country.TheScreamingEagles said:
Indeed, also can Tory Leavers tell me when their prediction that only a Leave vote would finally unite the Tory party will be realised?Richard_Nabavi said:
This is true. I am afraid that the good government of the Cameron/Osborne period is not going to come back anytime soon. It was excellent while it lasted.SouthamObserver said:Or the government! It's not the BBC's fault the cabinet Brexiteers have decided to use public sector pay as a stick with which to beat the Chancellor. Again, this is one the Tories are going to have to own.
Mottram!0 -
12 months ago.TheScreamingEagles said:
Indeed, also can Tory Leavers tell me when their prediction that only a Leave vote would finally unite the Tory party will be realised?Richard_Nabavi said:
This is true. I am afraid that the good government of the Cameron/Osborne period is not going to come back anytime soon. It was excellent while it lasted.SouthamObserver said:Or the government! It's not the BBC's fault the cabinet Brexiteers have decided to use public sector pay as a stick with which to beat the Chancellor. Again, this is one the Tories are going to have to own.
0 -
Not really, there were plenty of Tories that had doubts about Mrs May and her policies, the citizens of nowhere speech and the Lancaster House speech were egregious examples.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Eagles, to be fair, the party was united until May buggered it up.
Remember Max and myself were decrying things like the racial pay audit plans.0 -
Mr. Eagles, national, wasn't it?
And yes, that was ****ing insane.
Mrs C, the Patrick Party is required.0 -
Was Osborne Chancellor from 2007 to 2010?rkrkrk said:
Here's another disconnect.Richard_Nabavi said:Brilliant disconnect here:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jul/03/damning-government-report-shows-scale-of-public-sector-pay-cuts
Headline:
Damning government report shows depth of public sector pay cuts
Teachers, nurses and police officers have seen their take home pay fall or stagnate in real terms following a decade of salary freezes, analysis shows
Reality, in the very same article:
The new report found a 3% drop in median hourly earnings between 2005 and 2015 for workers in 32 public sector occupations whose salaries are set by the government on the advice of independent pay review bodies.
It found median hourly pay fell by an even greater amount – 6% – during that period for workers across the board, as the recession of 2008 hit wages hardest in the private sector
In other words, contrary to all the screaming, public sector workers have been protected from the worst effects of the crash.
You wouldn't know that if you listen to the BBC, would you?
The chancellor you describe as skilfully managing the economy has presided over a decade of falling wages. Indeed UK seems to be the only country with growth that as falling wages.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/83e7e87e-fe64-11e6-96f8-3700c5664d30
If you want to look at his record look from 2010 onwards and your claim falls flat on its face.0 -
@Paul1Singh: The British car industry export value is £26 billion with 180000 employee directly & 640000 employed indirectly. Br… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/8818547626013286400
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Not a massive surprise tbh. We were supposed to invoke immediately remember - at least May managed to buy some time.Scott_P said:@rafaelbehr: This is extraordinary. UK govt had no position on what wanted from Brexit but May set clock running anyway. Now https://twitter.com/lionelbarber/status/882165142926000129
How long can Nick and Fi be blamed for everything I wonder?0 -
The battle to lead one of the Commons’ most powerful committees intensified today as Remain supporter Nicky Morgan secured backing from key Brexiteer Michael Gove.
Support from the new Environment Secretary is considered a major coup for Ms Morgan. She is hoping to be elected chair of the Treasury Select Committee, one of the most prestigious offices MPs can hold outside government.
Staunch Remainer and former chancellor Ken Clarke is also said to be backing Ms Morgan, as are Labour MPs.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/michael-gove-backs-remainer-nicky-morgan-for-key-post-a3579286.html0 -
Absolutely.Morris_Dancer said:Tom Baker is clearly the best Doctor. Those who disagree will receive no jelly babies.
0 -
You need to be a bit careful with the median number; If you're getting more people into work who were previously unemployed or living in another country then you may pull down the median even if the actual individual humans involved are mostly becoming better off.rkrkrk said:
Here's another disconnect.Richard_Nabavi said:Brilliant disconnect here:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jul/03/damning-government-report-shows-scale-of-public-sector-pay-cuts
Headline:
Damning government report shows depth of public sector pay cuts
Teachers, nurses and police officers have seen their take home pay fall or stagnate in real terms following a decade of salary freezes, analysis shows
Reality, in the very same article:
The new report found a 3% drop in median hourly earnings between 2005 and 2015 for workers in 32 public sector occupations whose salaries are set by the government on the advice of independent pay review bodies.
It found median hourly pay fell by an even greater amount – 6% – during that period for workers across the board, as the recession of 2008 hit wages hardest in the private sector
In other words, contrary to all the screaming, public sector workers have been protected from the worst effects of the crash.
You wouldn't know that if you listen to the BBC, would you?
The chancellor you describe as skilfully managing the economy has presided over a decade of falling wages. Indeed UK seems to be the only country with growth that as falling wages.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/83e7e87e-fe64-11e6-96f8-3700c5664d30
If you're reducing the size of the public sector you get the opposite effect there, because it's generally cheaper and less troublesome to reduce hiring at the bottom end, rather than trying to cut pay or lay people off at the top end. If you hire fewer low-paid people without touching the rest then the median will go up.0 -
2010 - 2016 I think?Philip_Thompson said:
Was Osborne Chancellor from 2007 to 2010?rkrkrk said:
Here's another disconnect.Richard_Nabavi said:Brilliant disconnect here:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jul/03/damning-government-report-shows-scale-of-public-sector-pay-cuts
Headline:
Damning government report shows depth of public sector pay cuts
Teachers, nurses and police officers have seen their take home pay fall or stagnate in real terms following a decade of salary freezes, analysis shows
Reality, in the very same article:
The new report found a 3% drop in median hourly earnings between 2005 and 2015 for workers in 32 public sector occupations whose salaries are set by the government on the advice of independent pay review bodies.
It found median hourly pay fell by an even greater amount – 6% – during that period for workers across the board, as the recession of 2008 hit wages hardest in the private sector
In other words, contrary to all the screaming, public sector workers have been protected from the worst effects of the crash.
You wouldn't know that if you listen to the BBC, would you?
The chancellor you describe as skilfully managing the economy has presided over a decade of falling wages. Indeed UK seems to be the only country with growth that as falling wages.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/83e7e87e-fe64-11e6-96f8-3700c5664d30
If you want to look at his record look from 2010 onwards and your claim falls flat on its face.
There's a handy graph there that shows real wage declines for all but one of those years?0 -
They'll be blamed for the next century. They and their boss are likely to be remembered alongside the Brexiteers as the people who made Jeremy Corbyn as PM a reality.rkrkrk said:
Not a massive surprise tbh. We were supposed to invoke immediately remember - at least May managed to buy some time.Scott_P said:@rafaelbehr: This is extraordinary. UK govt had no position on what wanted from Brexit but May set clock running anyway. Now https://twitter.com/lionelbarber/status/882165142926000129
How long can Nick and Fi be blamed for everything I wonder?
They'll be remembered as latter day Neville Chamberlains.0 -
-
The Conservative Party is more united than it has been in years. That's why we won 42% of the vote of the public in the last election. It is just a handful of retrenched pro-Europeans that are opposed.TheScreamingEagles said:
Indeed, also can Tory Leavers tell me when their prediction that only a Leave vote would finally unite the Tory party will be realised?Richard_Nabavi said:
This is true. I am afraid that the good government of the Cameron/Osborne period is not going to come back anytime soon. It was excellent while it lasted.SouthamObserver said:Or the government! It's not the BBC's fault the cabinet Brexiteers have decided to use public sector pay as a stick with which to beat the Chancellor. Again, this is one the Tories are going to have to own.
Given Theresa May loyally served under the Cameroons for many years, sticking to her own brief and not interfering in others' areas, other people could learn from her lead.0 -
What I like is that College Lecturers are about to start their summer break and do not return until mid September. Anyone else get that sort of holiday?Richard_Nabavi said:Brilliant disconnect here:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jul/03/damning-government-report-shows-scale-of-public-sector-pay-cuts
Headline:
Damning government report shows depth of public sector pay cuts
Teachers, nurses and police officers have seen their take home pay fall or stagnate in real terms following a decade of salary freezes, analysis shows
Reality, in the very same article:
The new report found a 3% drop in median hourly earnings between 2005 and 2015 for workers in 32 public sector occupations whose salaries are set by the government on the advice of independent pay review bodies.
It found median hourly pay fell by an even greater amount – 6% – during that period for workers across the board, as the recession of 2008 hit wages hardest in the private sector
In other words, contrary to all the screaming, public sector workers have been protected from the worst effects of the crash.
You wouldn't know that if you listen to the BBC, would you?0 -
Why Ghana? I don't think he's running a medical missionStark_Dawning said:
Yes, the appointment of Liam was an odd one. With his smouldering good looks and pop-babe past, I can only think that Theresa's intention was to add a bit of sexiness to the Brexit proceedings. Perhaps having the glamorous doctor in place, gallivanting around the globe securing his trade deals with Australia, New Zealand, Canada and Ghana, was considered Brexit's answer to Poldark.Roger said:A thought.
Could it be that May is bluffing; pretending to be BREXY while trying to make it fail?
Take the strange case of of Dr Liam Fox.
Would you give a GP with his history the tricky job of TRADE MINISTER if you actually wanted it to succeed?
......Liam Fox who lost his job for taking a chum on official trips for the FOREIGN office?
.......Liam Fox whose expenses overclaim was the largest in the Shadw Cabinet? Isn't this rather like giving a FOX the key to the hen-house?
Brexit is one scandal away from collapse. Perhaps she's smarter than she looks?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liam_Fox0 -
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@jameschappers: .@Jeremy_Hunt clearly on Brexit manouevres: today's @FT letter and now an 'accidental' flash of doc in Downing St #sensiblebrexit0
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"Jean-Claude Juncker has described the European Parliament as "totally ridiculous" after most MEPs failed to show up for a debate on the EU presidency.
The extraordinary broadside sparked a heated exchange with Antonio Tajani, the President of the EU Parliament."
http://news.sky.com/story/juncker-slams-totally-ridiculous-eu-parliament-in-extraordinary-row-109362560 -
Nobody is using it as a stick to beat the Chancellor. There are simply a few voices pointing out that restricting pay caps are often not the best way to save money in the long term. I have often found that pay caps means you lose your best people and productivity drops as a result. It would be better to have a slimmer civil service rather than a larger, lower paid one. The current situation can often end up requiring to pay consultants or overtime to meet staffing shortages, which can cost even more. It is right to have this debate.SouthamObserver said:
Or the government! It's not the BBC's fault the cabinet Brexiteers have decided to use public sector pay as a stick with which to beat the Chancellor. Again, this is one the Tories are going to have to own.Richard_Nabavi said:Brilliant disconnect here:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jul/03/damning-government-report-shows-scale-of-public-sector-pay-cuts
Headline:
Damning government report shows depth of public sector pay cuts
Teachers, nurses and police officers have seen their take home pay fall or stagnate in real terms following a decade of salary freezes, analysis shows
Reality, in the very same article:
The new report found a 3% drop in median hourly earnings between 2005 and 2015 for workers in 32 public sector occupations whose salaries are set by the government on the advice of independent pay review bodies.
It found median hourly pay fell by an even greater amount – 6% – during that period for workers across the board, as the recession of 2008 hit wages hardest in the private sector
In other words, contrary to all the screaming, public sector workers have been protected from the worst effects of the crash.
You wouldn't know that if you listen to the BBC, would you?
We should also stop pretending that ministers having different points of view and communicating them publicly is some sort of new exceptional situation. This happened throughout the Cameron, Brown and Blair governments. Of course, they were all pro-EU Prime Ministers, so people weren't looking to beat them with every stick they could find.0 -
Yes, so popular we saw a swing from Con to Lab.CornishJohn said:
The Conservative Party is more united than it has been in years. That's why we won 42% of the vote of the public in the last election. It is just a handful of retrenched pro-Europeans that are opposed.TheScreamingEagles said:
Indeed, also can Tory Leavers tell me when their prediction that only a Leave vote would finally unite the Tory party will be realised?Richard_Nabavi said:
This is true. I am afraid that the good government of the Cameron/Osborne period is not going to come back anytime soon. It was excellent while it lasted.SouthamObserver said:Or the government! It's not the BBC's fault the cabinet Brexiteers have decided to use public sector pay as a stick with which to beat the Chancellor. Again, this is one the Tories are going to have to own.
Given Theresa May loyally served under the Cameroons for many years, sticking to her own brief and not interfering in others' areas, other people could learn from her lead.0 -
Hard to provide evidence... But i know from friends in civil service there was a huge amount of basic prep work that wasn't done pre-referendum. There was a ton of work to do just to figure out what work needed to be done.Scott_P said:
I am yet to see any evidence supporting that assertionrkrkrk said:I am sure we are better prepared than if we had invoked immediately.
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Ugh, what kind of illiterate people are Channel 4 and The Sun hiring. An apostrophe in holidays??
https://twitter.com/C4Dispatches/status/8821870831835340800 -
The calculation of "swings" can be very misleading when the electorate changes a lot to a big increase in turnout. A lot of young people came out for Labour, having been fed up with student loans and the unaffordability of housing. Those have been trends that are long in the making, and could have had much better attention from the last government.TheScreamingEagles said:
Yes, so popular we saw a swing from Con to Lab.CornishJohn said:
The Conservative Party is more united than it has been in years. That's why we won 42% of the vote of the public in the last election. It is just a handful of retrenched pro-Europeans that are opposed.TheScreamingEagles said:
Indeed, also can Tory Leavers tell me when their prediction that only a Leave vote would finally unite the Tory party will be realised?Richard_Nabavi said:
This is true. I am afraid that the good government of the Cameron/Osborne period is not going to come back anytime soon. It was excellent while it lasted.SouthamObserver said:Or the government! It's not the BBC's fault the cabinet Brexiteers have decided to use public sector pay as a stick with which to beat the Chancellor. Again, this is one the Tories are going to have to own.
Given Theresa May loyally served under the Cameroons for many years, sticking to her own brief and not interfering in others' areas, other people could learn from her lead.
It is important we get on with fixing the issues facing the British people, and then we can see of the Corbyn threat. Unfortunately, some people care more about staying in the EU than they do about Conservative governance, which is making this a lot harder. As I mentioned, Theresa May loyally served under Cameron, getting on with her job and not interfering in the briefs of other ministers. Others should take a leaf out of her book.0 -
Is it true that TM avoided getting into it with other ministers?CornishJohn said:
The calculation of "swings" can be very misleading when the electorate changes a lot to a big increase in turnout. A lot of young people came out for Labour, having been fed up with student loans and the unaffordability of housing. Those have been trends that are long in the making, and could have had much better attention from the last government.
It is important we get on with fixing the issues facing the British people, and then we can see of the Corbyn threat. Unfortunately, some people care more about staying in the EU than they do about Conservative governance, which is making this a lot harder. As I mentioned, Theresa May loyally served under Cameron, getting on with her job and not interfering in the briefs of other ministers. Others should take a leaf out of her book.
She had a run in with Gove I think? My sense wasthe cameroons found her unreliable - her non campaign during the referendum for instance....0 -
The lefties still occasionally blame things on Thatcher and she departed the political scene 30(ish) years ago.rkrkrk said:
Not a massive surprise tbh. We were supposed to invoke immediately remember - at least May managed to buy some time.Scott_P said:@rafaelbehr: This is extraordinary. UK govt had no position on what wanted from Brexit but May set clock running anyway. Now https://twitter.com/lionelbarber/status/882165142926000129
How long can Nick and Fi be blamed for everything I wonder?0 -
The EU is going to be blamed for everything for at least another 30 years by the more intense Leavers.Beverley_C said:
The lefties still occasionally blame things on Thatcher and she departed the political scene 30(ish) years ago.rkrkrk said:
Not a massive surprise tbh. We were supposed to invoke immediately remember - at least May managed to buy some time.Scott_P said:@rafaelbehr: This is extraordinary. UK govt had no position on what wanted from Brexit but May set clock running anyway. Now https://twitter.com/lionelbarber/status/882165142926000129
How long can Nick and Fi be blamed for everything I wonder?0 -
Ok, you don't like swings, how about net seat gains.CornishJohn said:
The calculation of "swings" can be very misleading when the electorate changes a lot to a big increase in turnout. A lot of young people came out for Labour, having been fed up with student loans and the unaffordability of housing. Those have been trends that are long in the making, and could have had much better attention from the last government.TheScreamingEagles said:
Yes, so popular we saw a swing from Con to Lab.CornishJohn said:
The Conservative Party is more united than it has been in years. That's why we won 42% of the vote of the public in the last election. It is just a handful of retrenched pro-Europeans that are opposed.TheScreamingEagles said:
Indeed, also can Tory Leavers tell me when their prediction that only a Leave vote would finally unite the Tory party will be realised?Richard_Nabavi said:
This is true. I am afraid that the good government of the Cameron/Osborne period is not going to come back anytime soon. It was excellent while it lasted.SouthamObserver said:Or the government! It's not the BBC's fault the cabinet Brexiteers have decided to use public sector pay as a stick with which to beat the Chancellor. Again, this is one the Tories are going to have to own.
Given Theresa May loyally served under the Cameroons for many years, sticking to her own brief and not interfering in others' areas, other people could learn from her lead.
It is important we get on with fixing the issues facing the British people, and then we can see of the Corbyn threat. Unfortunately, some people care more about staying in the EU than they do about Conservative governance, which is making this a lot harder. As I mentioned, Theresa May loyally served under Cameron, getting on with her job and not interfering in the briefs of other ministers. Others should take a leaf out of her book.
How many net seat gains did the Tories achieve on June 8th?0 -
In my experience much more than occasionally.Beverley_C said:
The lefties still occasionally blame things on Thatcher and she departed the political scene 30(ish) years ago.rkrkrk said:
Not a massive surprise tbh. We were supposed to invoke immediately remember - at least May managed to buy some time.Scott_P said:@rafaelbehr: This is extraordinary. UK govt had no position on what wanted from Brexit but May set clock running anyway. Now https://twitter.com/lionelbarber/status/882165142926000129
How long can Nick and Fi be blamed for everything I wonder?
Local labour meeting after Ed M. defeat I was stunned to find most people thought Thatcher was the main cause.0
