That would be the federalist Vernon Bogdanor who, like Williamglenn, believes the UK should cease to exist as an independent country and become part of a federal EU state. Not exactly an unbiased commentator.
Well that's all right then. So much easier than having to trouble yourself thinking about a contrary argument.
A more nuanced view would recognise that elections are both about winning seats and winning arguments. The problem the Tories have is that they (and the DUP) won the seats but lost the argument.
What argument do you think Labour 'won'?
The Tories went to the country arguing that they needed a bigger mandate/majority to deliver their version of Brexit, and lost. They argued that Mrs May was a stronger and more competent leader than Corbyn, and lost. They argued that stable steady-as-you-go was vital and that a change in direction would be dangerous, and lost. They argued for a continuation of the economic approach since 2010 (given May's failure to put any meat on the bones for her JAMs) and lost. They lost the argument on funding social home care from property equity and lost the argument on most of the peripheral Tory obsessions that found their way into the manifesto, such as fox hunting, which is probably now resolved for ever. More Grammar schools is probably also dead as an issue.
The political mood now is entirely changed, Hence all the Tories falling over themselves to argue for pay rises for public sector employees.
As a Liverpool fan I love this argument. We might have come second by a distance but really we won, we beat the Champions twice, and we were a long way back at the beginning and they lost their last 4 games, so they might as well put our name on the trophy!
Amusing but not really my point.
The change in the political mood is nevertheless evident all around us, including in the polls, where Labour now has a lead and Corbyn has better leader ratings than May (the odds on that ever occurring would have been huge a few months ago!). All the expectation is that things will have to change, and the government's approach will have to change, and - as we are seeing with public sector pay - each time the Tories will have the choice between not changing, and digging the political hole they are now in yet deeper, or changing, and conceding that the opposition is in the driving seat.
This absolutely shambolic government is now openly negotiating with itself via the newspapers.
Bogdanor reminded me of the Foundation Trilogy by Isaac Asimov. Jezza was the 'Mule' factored in by Hari Seldon and ignored by the Empire and Bogdanor.
That would be the federalist Vernon Bogdanor who, like Williamglenn, believes the UK should cease to exist as an independent country and become part of a federal EU state. Not exactly an unbiased commentator.
Well that's all right then. So much easier than having to trouble yourself thinking about a contrary argument.
If I've already listened to and rejected the arguments in favour of gnawing my own arm off once I don't think I need to re-hear them every Tuesday, Thursday and Sunday for the sake of open-minded balance and fair consideration.
The sheer incompetence of the Conservative party's approach to Brexit really is something to behold. They have no idea what they want, no understanding of what will happen when we do leave and no plan to deal with any of it. What an absolute shower of shite they are.
British manufacturers are fast approaching a “tipping point” where a lack of certainty over the direction of Brexit negotiations will force them to make painful cuts whatever the outcome, they say. The stark warning, due to be delivered on Tuesday by Engineering Employers’ Federation chief executive Terry Scuoler, comes as business leaders begin a week of crunch meetings with government ministers to try to force the pace of thinking over how to ensure economic stability when Britain leaves the European Union.
You're much more interesting when you take the partisan spectacles off. Theresa May has been constant on no single market, no EU Customs Union, no freedom of movement and no ECJ jurisdiction since January.
It's your party that promises 'not being in the Customs union or single market but with all the benefits'. What would you call promising something by definition unachievable?
I'd call it lying.
Being They are making an absolute Horlicks of it.
Not all, Cameron, Osborne, Hunt, Morgan, Rudd, Javid, even May all backed Remain. Labour MPs like Field, Hoey and Stuart were a core part of the Vote Leave campaign and helped convince over a third of Labour voters to vote Leave while Corbyn did virtually nothing at all for the Remain campaign. Indeed almost as many Labour voters backed Leave as Tory voters backed Remain. Only the LDs can claim to have genuinely had all their MPs backing Remain and the vast majority of their voters and to have stuck to a soft Brexit position after the result
The Tories own Brexit - they led the Leave and Remain campaigns, they headlined the debates, they set the referendum agenda and they are now in power and have been throughout this entire period. Tory cabinet ministers told voters leaving would be pain-free and easy. And the Tories are now making a complete pig's ear of the exit process.
"Own" in this context is a classic weasel word. May neither advocated, campaigned for, voted for nor welcomed Brexit, which is what your argument demands, so we'll say her party "owns" it. It doesn't.
I am afraid it does. I am intrigued by the idea that Mrs May did not embrace Brexit and enthusiastically seek to implement it.
That would be the federalist Vernon Bogdanor who, like Williamglenn, believes the UK should cease to exist as an independent country and become part of a federal EU state. Not exactly an unbiased commentator.
Well that's all right then. So much easier than having to trouble yourself thinking about a contrary argument.
The argument he makes is fatuous and wrong, based on false claims and his own long held bias against the nation state and in favour of a federal Europe. The contrary argument is that the nation state is the best reflection of the democratic will of the people. All his other arguments are flawed because they are based on his own undemocratic views.
One of the devastating examples of closing the farmyard gate after the horse has bolted. Though he's comenably honest he should still take himself outside with a loaded luger.
it is the Tories who are in power (thanks to the DUP) and the Tories who own the entire Brexit strategy. They are making an absolute Horlicks of it.
The most interesting thing from that Dominic Cummings exchange is not that he thinks it will be a disaster, but that he is already blaming poor implementation for the failure.
"The idea was great, if only it had been done right..."
The implementation of Brexit has been remarkably bad. He has a point.
The surprising thing is that this excuse is being used so early in the process.
it is the Tories who are in power (thanks to the DUP) and the Tories who own the entire Brexit strategy. They are making an absolute Horlicks of it.
The most interesting thing from that Dominic Cummings exchange is not that he thinks it will be a disaster, but that he is already blaming poor implementation for the failure.
"The idea was great, if only it had been done right..."
Dominic Cummings is obviously scarily bright, but he takes no account of the resources that the nation is likely to have at its disposal for implementing Brexit (and indeed his other desired changes to the state). The chances of a happy ending were always remote for that reason, even leaving aside the wholly malign way in which Leave fought its campaign and the inevitable consequences of that malignity.
The Brexit project having lasted surprisingly long in the unbridled enthusiasm stage, passed rapidly through the concern stage to panic, and it seems we're on the search for the guilty stage. Just punish the innocent to go.
I'm an advocate of the "expect no change" default position in betting. But it's hard to imagine this shambles continuing for another two years, while the rabble of competing ministers and leadership contenders vie to put forward their rival ideas while the Government tries to negotiate the trickiest deal in 50 years. Surely even Conservatives see that? It will do near-terminal damage to their party, quite apart from the country.
The sheer incompetence of the Conservative party's approach to Brexit really is something to behold. They have no idea what they want, no understanding of what will happen when we do leave and no plan to deal with any of it. What an absolute shower of shite they are.
British manufacturers are fast approaching a “tipping point” where a lack of certainty over the direction of Brexit negotiations will force them to make painful cuts whatever the outcome, they say. The stark warning, due to be delivered on Tuesday by Engineering Employers’ Federation chief executive Terry Scuoler, comes as business leaders begin a week of crunch meetings with government ministers to try to force the pace of thinking over how to ensure economic stability when Britain leaves the European Union.
You're much more interesting when you take the partisan spectacles off. Theresa May has been constant on no single market, no EU Customs Union, no freedom of movement and no ECJ jurisdiction since January.
It's your party that promises 'not being in the Customs union or single market but with all the benefits'. What would you call promising something by definition unachievable?
I'd call it lying.
Being They are making an absolute Horlicks of it.
Not all, Cameron, Osborne, Hunt, Morgan, Rudd, Javid, even May all backed Remain. Labour MPs like Field, Hoey and Stuart were a core part of the Vote Leave campaign and helped convince over a third of Labour voters to vote Leave while Corbyn did virtually nothing at all for the Remain campaign. Indeed almost as many Labour voters backed Leave as Tory voters backed Remain. Only the LDs can claim to have genuinely had all their MPs backing Remain and the vast majority of their voters and to have stuck to a soft Brexit position after the result
The Tories own Brexit - they led the Leave and Remain campaigns, they headlined the debates, they set the referendum agenda and they are now in power and have been throughout this entire period. Tory cabinet ministers told voters leaving would be pain-free and easy. And the Tories are now making a complete pig's ear of the exit process.
No. 17 million Leave voters own Brexit, end of including plenty of Labour MPs. As a Tory Remain voter I resent being told I 'own' Brexit when a Labour Leave voter does not. In any case the ultimate blame for Brexit likes with Tony Blair and his failure to impose transition controls on migration from the new accession countries in 2004 unlike most other EU nations
Shambles is too kind. There gets to a point where you have to start thinking about some kind of criminal negligence. Obviously, that's way over the top, but the sheer incompetence and the damage this will cause is breathtaking.
That would be the federalist Vernon Bogdanor who, like Williamglenn, believes the UK should cease to exist as an independent country and become part of a federal EU state. Not exactly an unbiased commentator.
Well that's all right then. So much easier than having to trouble yourself thinking about a contrary argument.
The argument he makes is fatuous and wrong, based on false claims and his own long held bias against the nation state and in favour of a federal Europe. The contrary argument is that the nation state is the best reflection of the democratic will of the people. All his other arguments are flawed because they are based on his own undemocratic views.
Maybe you should listen before dismissing it out of hand?
He's done 6 other lectures on Britain and Europe. He's happy to point out that the French deliberately kept us out until they'd locked in the CAP and CFP to their benefit, which was clearly a hostile act.
One can believe in a federal future for Britain and still make interesting and valid observations.
I am afraid it does. I am intrigued by the idea that Mrs May did not embrace Brexit and enthusiastically seek to implement it.
So be intrigued. "Embrace" comes out of the same weasel-word drawer as "own", and she is seeking to implement it because she has to. I pay my taxes and go to the dentist once a year; that doesn't mean I enthusiastically embrace the opportunity to do those things.
I'm an advocate of the "expect no change" default position in betting. But it's hard to imagine this shambles continuing for another two years, while the rabble of competing ministers and leadership contenders vie to put forward their rival ideas while the Government tries to negotiate the trickiest deal in 50 years. Surely even Conservatives see that? It will do near-terminal damage to their party, quite apart from the country.
The Tories always put party first, we already know that; but, as you say, watching the current train wreck cannot fill any other than the true swivel-eyed Brexit zealots with anything other than despair.
Get the feeling that the Tories won power but don't have a clue what direction they are heading. Philip Hammond suggests a national debate about whether taxes should increase to pay for better public services. David Davis and other cabinet ministers want a more flexible approach to Brexit negotiations without the red lines Theresa May insisted on previously.
Tory/DUP coalition of chaos will last a few months, before Theresa May is toppled by her Tory cabinet colleagues and they cancel the deal with the DUP. The new Tory leader/PM will then try to continue with an early election in April 2018. Brexit will be delayed by years, as article 50 is extended by agreement with the EU.
This is my prediction based on the messy situation we have at the moment.
The EU will not extend the time frames. The UK has made its bed and now it has to lie in it! The UK lemmings are going over the cliff and the only way back will be on the EU's terms. (i.e. Join the Euro, opt in to the opt-outs, say goodbye to the rebate, and less influence). What a total screw-up!
From my knowledge of EU politics I don't think they'd be as unhelpful as you think if we did want to stay. But they're not in the mood to spin the process out for the convenience of UK domestic politics, which they regard with increasing exasperation. "If you're going, let's get on with it. If you'd like to reconsider, that's different." sums it up.
When Belgium thinks your government is in chaos .......
I am afraid it does. I am intrigued by the idea that Mrs May did not embrace Brexit and enthusiastically seek to implement it.
So be intrigued. "Embrace" comes out of the same weasel-word drawer as "own", and she is seeking to implement it because she has to. I pay my taxes and go to the dentist once a year; that doesn't mean I enthusiastically embrace the opportunity to do those things.
Yep - I am convinced. Mrs May was never anything other than an extremely reluctant implementer of Brexit and made that clear time and again. I cannot believe I allowed myself to forget that. I guess that's citizens of nowhere for you. We are too busy being enemies of the people and sabotaging things to take notice of what is really going on. A lesson learned. Anyway, on another note, I have some magic beans that when planted grow into golden ingots. I can let you have them for a very good price. Just direct message me ...
That would be the federalist Vernon Bogdanor who, like Williamglenn, believes the UK should cease to exist as an independent country and become part of a federal EU state. Not exactly an unbiased commentator.
Well that's all right then. So much easier than having to trouble yourself thinking about a contrary argument.
The argument he makes is fatuous and wrong, based on false claims and his own long held bias against the nation state and in favour of a federal Europe. The contrary argument is that the nation state is the best reflection of the democratic will of the people. All his other arguments are flawed because they are based on his own undemocratic views.
Maybe you should listen before dismissing it out of hand?
He's done 6 other lectures on Britain and Europe. He's happy to point out that the French deliberately kept us out until they'd locked in the CAP and CFP to their benefit, which was clearly a hostile act.
One can believe in a federal future for Britain and still make interesting and valid observations.
I'm not sure that noticing the French have always maintained a level of self-interest is an "interesting" observation - although i'll grant you "valid".
The sheer incompetence of the Conservative party's approach to Brexit really is something to behold. They have no idea what they want, no understanding of what will happen when we do leave and no plan to deal with any of it. What an absolute shower of shite they are.
British manufacturers are fast approaching a “tipping point” where a lack of certainty over the direction of Brexit negotiations will force them to make painful cuts whatever the outcome, they say. The stark warning, due to be delivered on Tuesday by Engineering Employers’ Federation chief executive Terry Scuoler, comes as business leaders begin a week of crunch meetings with government ministers to try to force the pace of thinking over how to ensure economic stability when Britain leaves the European Union.
You're much more interesting when you take the partisan spectacles off. Theresa May has been constant on no single market, no EU Customs Union, no freedom of movement and no ECJ jurisdiction since January.
It's your party that promises 'not being in the Customs union or single market but with all the benefits'. What would you call promising something by definition unachievable?
I'd call it lying.
Being They are making an absolute Horlicks of it.
t
The Tories own Brexit - they led the Leave and Remain campaigns, they headlined the debates, they set the referendum agenda and they are now in power and have been throughout this entire period. Tory cabinet ministers told voters leaving would be pain-free and easy. And the Tories are now making a complete pig's ear of the exit process.
No. 17 million Leave voters own Brexit, end of including plenty of Labour MPs. As a Tory Remain voter I resent being told I 'own' Brexit when a Labour Leave voter does not. In any case the ultimate blame for Brexit likes with Tony Blair and his failure to impose transition controls on migration from the new accession countries in 2004 unlike most other EU nations
I think we'll find if Brexit turns out OK or is popular Labour were behind it all the way.....
That would be the federalist Vernon Bogdanor who, like Williamglenn, believes the UK should cease to exist as an independent country and become part of a federal EU state. Not exactly an unbiased commentator.
Well that's all right then. So much easier than having to trouble yourself thinking about a contrary argument.
The argument he makes is fatuous and wrong, based on false claims and his own long held bias against the nation state and in favour of a federal Europe. The contrary argument is that the nation state is the best reflection of the democratic will of the people. All his other arguments are flawed because they are based on his own undemocratic views.
The sheer incompetence of the Conservative party's approach to Brexit really is something to behold. They have no idea what they want, no understanding of what will happen when we do leave and no plan to deal with any of it. What an absolute shower of shite they are.
British manufacturers are fast approaching a “tipping point” where a lack of certainty over the direction of Brexit negotiations will force them to make painful cuts whatever the outcome, they say. The stark warning, due to be delivered on Tuesday by Engineering Employers’ Federation chief executive Terry Scuoler, comes as business leaders begin a week of crunch meetings with government ministers to try to force the pace of thinking over how to ensure economic stability when Britain leaves the European Union.
You're much more interesting when you take the partisan spectacles off. Theresa May has been constant on no single market, no EU Customs Union, no freedom of movement and no ECJ jurisdiction since January.
It's your party that promises 'not being in the Customs union or single market but with all the benefits'. What would you call promising something by definition unachievable?
I'd call it lying.
Being They are making an absolute Horlicks of it.
Not result
The Tories own Brexit - they led the Leave and Remain campaigns, they headlined the debates, they set the referendum agenda and they are now in power and have been throughout this entire period. Tory cabinet ministers told voters leaving would be pain-free and easy. And the Tories are now making a complete pig's ear of the exit process.
No. 17 million Leave voters own Brexit, end of including plenty of Labour MPs. As a Tory Remain voter I resent being told I 'own' Brexit when a Labour Leave voter does not. In any case the ultimate blame for Brexit likes with Tony Blair and his failure to impose transition controls on migration from the new accession countries in 2004 unlike most other EU nations
Yep - good luck with that on the doorsteps. The government is not responsible for the mess it is making of Brexit, it's your fault for voting Leave; oh and Tony Blair's, too.
A more nuanced view would recognise that elections are both about winning seats and winning arguments. The problem the Tories have is that they (and the DUP) won the seats but lost the argument.
What argument do you think Labour 'won'?
The Tories went to the country arguing that they needed a bigger mandate/majority to deliver their version of Brexit, and lost. They argued that Mrs May was a stronger and more competent leader than Corbyn, and lost. They argued that stable steady-as-you-go was vital and that a change in direction would be dangerous, and lost. They argued for a continuation of the economic approach since 2010 (given May's failure to put any meat on the bones for her JAMs) and lost. They lost the argument on funding social home care from property equity and lost the argument on most of the peripheral Tory obsessions that found their way into the manifesto, such as fox hunting, which is probably now resolved for ever. More Grammar schools is probably also dead as an issue.
The political mood now is entirely changed, Hence all the Tories falling over themselves to argue for pay rises for public sector employees.
That doesn't answer the question - what argument did Labour win?
Well, since the election the Tories have adopted Labour policies and ditched the ones Labour opposed, so...policy?
I'm an advocate of the "expect no change" default position in betting. But it's hard to imagine this shambles continuing for another two years, while the rabble of competing ministers and leadership contenders vie to put forward their rival ideas while the Government tries to negotiate the trickiest deal in 50 years. Surely even Conservatives see that? It will do near-terminal damage to their party, quite apart from the country.
The Tories always put party first
Mr Burnham said he would always put his party first.
Shambles is too kind. There gets to a point where you have to start thinking about some kind of criminal negligence. Obviously, that's way over the top, but the sheer incompetence and the damage this will cause is breathtaking.
Were you born a pessimist or did it come by degrees. Its an awful way to live a life. Cheer up!
The sheer incompetence of the Conservative party's approach to Brexit really is something to behold. They have no idea what they want, no understanding of what will happen when we do leave and no plan to deal with any of it. What an absolute shower of shite they are.
British manufacturers are fast approaching a “tipping point” where a lack of certainty over the direction of Brexit negotiations will force them to make painful cuts whatever the outcome, they say. The stark warning, due to be delivered on Tuesday by Engineering Employers’ Federation chief executive Terry Scuoler, comes as business leaders begin a week of crunch meetings with government ministers to try to force the pace of thinking over how to ensure economic stability when Britain leaves the European Union.
You're much more interesting when you take the partisan spectacles off. Theresa May has been constant on no single market, no EU Customs Union, no freedom of movement and no ECJ jurisdiction since January.
It's your party that promises 'not being in the Customs union or single market but with all the benefits'. What would you call promising something by definition unachievable?
I'd call it lying.
Being They are making an absolute Horlicks of it.
Not all, Cameron, Osborne, Hunt, Morgan, Rudd, Javid, even May all backed Remain. Labour MPs like Field, Hoey and Stuart were a core part of the Vote Leave campaign and helped convince over a third of Labour voters to vote Leave while Corbyn did virtually nothing at all for the Remain campaign. Indeed almost as many Labour voters backed Leave as Tory voters backed Remain. Only the LDs can claim to have genuinely had all their MPs backing Remain and the vast majority of their voters and to have stuck to a soft Brexit position after the result
The Tories own Brexit - they led the Leave and Remain campaigns, they headlined the debates, they set the referendum agenda and they are now in power and have been throughout this entire period. Tory cabinet ministers told voters leaving would be pain-free and easy. And the Tories are now making a complete pig's ear of the exit process.
"Own" in this context is a classic weasel word. May neither advocated, campaigned for, voted for nor welcomed Brexit, which is what your argument demands, so we'll say her party "owns" it. It doesn't.
The Tories own the vision of Brexit spelled out in May's speech.
The sheer incompetence of the Conservative party's approach to Brexit really is something to behold. They have no idea what they want, no understanding of what will happen when we do leave and no plan to deal with any of it. What an absolute shower of shite they are. Union.
You're much more interesting when you take the partisan spectacles off. Theresa May has been constant on no single market, no EU Customs Union, no freedom of movement and no ECJ jurisdiction since January.
It's your party that promises 'not being in the Customs union or single market but with all the benefits'. What would you call promising something by definition unachievable?
I'd call it lying.
Being They are making an absolute Horlicks of it.
Not all, Cameron, Osborne, Hunt, Morgan, Rudd, Javid, even May all backed Remain. Labour MPs like Field, Hoey and Stuart were a core part of the Vote Leave campaign and helped convince over a third of Labour voters to vote Leave while Corbyn did virtually nothing at all for the Remain campaign. Indeed almost as many Labour voters backed Leave as Tory voters backed Remain. Only the LDs can claim to have genuinely had all their MPs backing Remain and the vast majority of their voters and to have stuck to a soft Brexit position after the result
The Tories own Brexit - they led the Leave and Remain campaigns, they headlined the debates, they set the referendum agenda and they are now in power and have been throughout this entire period. Tory cabinet ministers told voters leaving would be pain-free and easy. And the Tories are now making a complete pig's ear of the exit process.
"Own" in this context is a classic weasel word. May neither advocated, campaigned for, voted for nor welcomed Brexit, which is what your argument demands, so we'll say her party "owns" it. It doesn't.
There's a serious point here. Once selected as party leader and PM, Theresa May could have said, my job is to see Britain leave the EU as mandated by the referendum, to work with all sides in the UK and our partners in the EU to do this with the least disruption possible, and for the UK to be the best friends possible to the EU going forward. That would reassure remain voters, UK businesses and European partners. Instead of which she went more Kipper than a North Sea herring.
I'm an advocate of the "expect no change" default position in betting. But it's hard to imagine this shambles continuing for another two years, while the rabble of competing ministers and leadership contenders vie to put forward their rival ideas while the Government tries to negotiate the trickiest deal in 50 years. Surely even Conservatives see that? It will do near-terminal damage to their party, quite apart from the country.
I feel sure that the strong hand of Corbyn would do much better..in destroying the Country.
The sheer incompetence of the Conservative party's approach to Brexit really is something to behold. They have no idea what they want, no understanding of what will happen when we do leave and no plan to deal with any of it. What an absolute shower of shite they are. Union.
You're much more interesting when you take the partisan spectacles off. Theresa May has been constant on no single market, no EU Customs Union, no freedom of movement and no ECJ jurisdiction since January.
It's your party that promises 'not being in the Customs union or single market but with all the benefits'. What would you call promising something by definition unachievable?
I'd call it lying.
Being They are making an absolute Horlicks of it.
Not all, Cameron, Osborne, Hunt, Morgan, Rudd, Javid, even May all backed Remain. Labour MPs like Field, Hoey and Stuart were a core part of the Vote Leave campaign and helped convince over a third of Labour voters to vote Leave while Corbyn did virtually nothing at all for the Remain campaign. Indeed almost as many Labour voters backed Leave as Tory voters backed Remain. Only the LDs can claim to have genuinely had all their MPs backing Remain and the vast majority of their voters and to have stuck to a soft Brexit position after the result
The Tories own Brexit - they led the Leave and Remain campaigns, they headlined the debates, they set the referendum agenda and they are now in power and have been throughout this entire period. Tory cabinet ministers told voters leaving would be pain-free and easy. And the Tories are now making a complete pig's ear of the exit process.
"Own" in this context is a classic weasel word. May neither advocated, campaigned for, voted for nor welcomed Brexit, which is what your argument demands, so we'll say her party "owns" it. It doesn't.
There's a serious point here. Once selected as party leader and PM, Theresa May could have said, my job is to see Britain leave the EU as mandated by the referendum, to work with all sides in the UK and our partners in the EU to do this with the least disruption possible, and for the UK to be the best friends possible to the EU going forward. That would reassure remain voters, UK businesses and European partners. Instead of which she went more Kipper than a North Sea herring.
Agree entirely. Which is why I still have a faint suspicion that May's long term aim is to wreck Brexit not to facilitate it.
The sheer incompetence of the Conservative party's approach to Brexit really is something to behold. They have no idea what they want, no understanding of what will happen when we do leave and no plan to deal with any of it. What an absolute shower of shite they are. Union.
You're much more interesting when you take the partisan spectacles off. Theresa May has been constant on no single market, no EU Customs Union, no freedom of movement and no ECJ jurisdiction since January.
It's your party that promises 'not being in the Customs union or single market but with all the benefits'. What would you call promising something by definition unachievable?
I'd call it lying.
Being They are making an absolute Horlicks of it.
Not all, Cameron, Osborne, Hunt, Morgan, Rudd, Javid, even May all backed Remain. Labour MPs like Field, Hoey and Stuart were a core part of the Vote Leave campaign and helped convince over a third of Labour voters to vote Leave while Corbyn did virtually nothing at all for the Remain campaign. Indeed almost as many Labour voters backed Leave as Tory voters backed Remain. Only the LDs can claim to have genuinely had all their MPs backing Remain and the vast majority of their voters and to have stuck to a soft Brexit position after the result
The Tories own Brexit - they led the Leave and Remain campaigns, they headlined the debates, they set the referendum agenda and they are now in power and have been throughout this entire period. Tory cabinet ministers told voters leaving would be pain-free and easy. And the Tories are now making a complete pig's ear of the exit process.
"Own" in this context is a classic weasel word. May neither advocated, campaigned for, voted for nor welcomed Brexit, which is what your argument demands, so we'll say her party "owns" it. It doesn't.
There's a serious point here. Once selected as party leader and PM, Theresa May could have said, my job is to see Britain leave the EU as mandated by the referendum, to work with all sides in the UK and our partners in the EU to do this with the least disruption possible, and for the UK to be the best friends possible to the EU going forward. That would reassure remain voters, UK businesses and European partners. Instead of which she went more Kipper than a North Sea herring.
Precisely. She set us on the course we are now charting. And the rocks are rapidly approaching - unless someone else grabs the tiller.
The sheer incompetence of the Conservative party's approach to Brexit really is something to behold. They have no idea what they want, no understanding of what will happen when we do leave and no plan to deal with any of it. What an absolute shower of shite they are.
British manufacturers are fast approaching a “tipping point” where a lack of certainty over the direction of Brexit negotiations will force them to make painful cuts whatever the outcome, they say. The stark warning, due to be delivered on Tuesday by Engineering Employers’ Federation chief executive Terry Scuoler, comes as business leaders begin a week of crunch meetings with government ministers to try to force the pace of thinking over how to ensure economic stability when Britain leaves the European Union.
You're much more interesting when you take the partisan spectacles off. Theresa May has been constant on no single market, no EU Customs Union, no freedom of movement and no ECJ jurisdiction since January.
It's your party that promises 'not being in the Customs union or single market but with all the benefits'. What would you call promising something by definition unachievable?
I'd call it lying.
Being They are making an absolute Horlicks of it.
t
The Tories own Brexit - they led the Leave and Remain campaigns, they headlined the debates, they set the referendum agenda and they are now in power and have been throughout this entire period. Tory cabinet ministers told voters leaving would be pain-free and easy. And the Tories are now making a complete pig's ear of the exit process.
No. 17 million Leave voters own Brexit, end of including plenty of Labour MPs. As a Tory Remain voter I resent being told I 'own' Brexit when a Labour Leave voter does not. In any case the ultimate blame for Brexit likes with Tony Blair and his failure to impose transition controls on migration from the new accession countries in 2004 unlike most other EU nations
I think we'll find if Brexit turns out OK or is popular Labour were behind it all the way.....
The rate at which Tories are disowning it there will only be Kate Hoey left so you might be right
I'm an advocate of the "expect no change" default position in betting. But it's hard to imagine this shambles continuing for another two years, while the rabble of competing ministers and leadership contenders vie to put forward their rival ideas while the Government tries to negotiate the trickiest deal in 50 years. Surely even Conservatives see that? It will do near-terminal damage to their party, quite apart from the country.
The Tories always put party first
Mr Burnham said he would always put his party first.
The sheer incompetence of the Conservative party's approach to Brexit really is something to behold. They have no idea what they want, no understanding of what will happen when we do leave and no plan to deal with any of it. What an absolute shower of shite they are.
British manufacturers are fast approaching a “tipping point” where a lack of certainty over the direction of Brexit negotiations will force them to make painful cuts whatever the outcome, they say. The stark warning, due to be delivered on Tuesday by Engineering Employers’ Federation chief executive Terry Scuoler, comes as business leaders begin a week of crunch meetings with government ministers to try to force the pace of thinking over how to ensure economic stability when Britain leaves the European Union.
You're much more interesting when you take the partisan spectacles off. Theresa May has been constant on no single market, no EU Customs Union, no freedom of movement and no ECJ jurisdiction since January.
It's your party that promises 'not being in the Customs union or single market but with all the benefits'. What would you call promising something by definition unachievable?
I'd call it lying.
Being They are making an absolute Horlicks of it.
Not result
The Tories own Brexit - they led the Leave and Remain campaigns, they headlined the debates,
No. 17 million Leave voters own Brexit, end of including plenty of Labour MPs. As a Tory Remain voter I resent being told I 'own' Brexit when a Labour Leave voter does not. In any case the ultimate blame for Brexit likes with Tony Blair and his failure to impose transition controls on migration from the new accession countries in 2004 unlike most other EU nations
Yep - good luck with that on the doorsteps. The government is not responsible for the mess it is making of Brexit, it's your fault for voting Leave; oh and Tony Blair's, too.
It is. At the end of the day Leave voters made their bed by voting Brexit and have to lie in it whether we have a Tory or Labour government now makes no difference to the fact they will be implementing the result Leave voters voted for. Plus the only reason Leave won more than 50% of the vote was because of the lack of controls on Eastern European migration under Blair
The sheer incompetence of the Conservative party's approach to Brexit really is something to behold. They have no idea what they want, no understanding of what will happen when we do leave and no plan to deal with any of it. What an absolute shower of shite they are.
British manufacturers are fast approaching a “tipping point” where a lack of certainty over the direction of Brexit negotiations will force them to make painful cuts whatever the outcome, they say. The stark warning, due to be delivered on Tuesday by Engineering Employers’ Federation chief executive Terry Scuoler, comes as business leaders begin a week of crunch meetings with government ministers to try to force the pace of thinking over how to ensure economic stability when Britain leaves the European Union.
You're much more interesting when you take the partisan spectacles off. Theresa May has been constant on no single market, no EU Customs Union, no freedom of movement and no ECJ jurisdiction since January.
It's your party that promises 'not being in the Customs union or single market but with all the benefits'. What would you call promising something by definition unachievable?
I'd call it lying.
Being They are making an absolute Horlicks of it.
t
The Tories own Brexit - they led the Leave and Remain campaigns, they headlined the debates, they set the referendum agenda and they are now in power and have been throughout this entire period. Tory cabinet ministers told voters leaving would be pain-free and easy. And the Tories are now making a complete pig's ear of the exit process.
No. 17 million Leave voters own Brexit, end of including plenty of Labour MPs. As a Tory Remain voter I resent being told I 'own' Brexit when a Labour Leave voter does not. In any case the ultimate blame for Brexit likes with Tony Blair and his failure to impose transition controls on migration from the new accession countries in 2004 unlike most other EU nations
I think we'll find if Brexit turns out OK or is popular Labour were behind it all the way.....
There will surely come a moment when they have to jump on one horse or the other.
That would be the federalist Vernon Bogdanor who, like Williamglenn, believes the UK should cease to exist as an independent country and become part of a federal EU state. Not exactly an unbiased commentator.
Well that's all right then. So much easier than having to trouble yourself thinking about a contrary argument.
The argument he makes is fatuous and wrong, based on false claims and his own long held bias against the nation state and in favour of a federal Europe. The contrary argument is that the nation state is the best reflection of the democratic will of the people. All his other arguments are flawed because they are based on his own undemocratic views.
Maybe you should listen before dismissing it out of hand?
He's done 6 other lectures on Britain and Europe. He's happy to point out that the French deliberately kept us out until they'd locked in the CAP and CFP to their benefit, which was clearly a hostile act.
One can believe in a federal future for Britain and still make interesting and valid observations.
I have watched many of his talks - two of them I was in the room when he gave them. I have also read much of what he has written over the years. Do not presume a level of ignorance exhibited by most commentators on these matters. His observations are indeed interesting but certainly not valid as far as being neutral and balanced. They are based on a world view that is, at its heart, undemocratic and elitist.
The sheer incompetence of the Conservative party's approach to Brexit really is something to behold. They have no idea what they want, no understanding of what will happen when we do leave and no plan to deal with any of it. What an absolute shower of shite they are.
British manufacturers are fast approaching a “tipping point” where a lack of certainty over the direction of Brexit negotiations will force them to make painful cuts whatever the outcome, they say. The stark warning, due to be delivered on Tuesday by Engineering Employers’ Federation chief executive Terry Scuoler, comes as business leaders begin a week of crunch meetings with government ministers to try to force the pace of thinking over how to ensure economic stability when Britain leaves the European Union.
You're much more interesting when you take the partisan spectacles off. Theresa May has been constant on no single market, no EU Customs Union, no freedom of movement and no ECJ jurisdiction since January.
It's your party that promises 'not being in the Customs union or single market but with all the benefits'. What would you call promising something by definition unachievable?
I'd call it lying.
Being They are making an absolute Horlicks of it.
t
The Tories own Brexit - they led the Leave and Remain campaigns, they headlined the debates, they set the referendum agenda and they are now in power and have been throughout this entire period. Tory cabinet ministers told voters leaving would be pain-free and easy. And the Tories are now making a complete pig's ear of the exit process.
No. 17 million Leave voters own Brexit, end of including plenty of Labour MPs. As a Tory Remain voter I resent being told I 'own' Brexit when a Labour Leave voter does not. In any case the ultimate blame for Brexit likes with Tony Blair and his failure to impose transition controls on migration from the new accession countries in 2004 unlike most other EU nations
I think we'll find if Brexit turns out OK or is popular Labour were behind it all the way.....
There will surely come a moment when they have to jump on one horse or the other.
If you can't ride two horses, as they say, you shouldn't be in the circus.
The sheer incompetence of the Conservative party's approach to Brexit really is something to behold. They have no idea what they want, no understanding of what will happen when we do leave and no plan to deal with any of it. What an absolute shower of shite they are. Union.
You're much more interesting when you take the partisan spectacles off. Theresa May has been constant on no single market, no EU Customs Union, no freedom of movement and no ECJ jurisdiction since January.
It's your party that promises 'not being in the Customs union or single market but with all the benefits'. What would you call promising something by definition unachievable?
I'd call it lying.
Being They are making an absolute Horlicks of it.
Not all, Cameron, Osborne, Hunt, Morgan, Rudd, Javid, even May all backed Remain. Labour MPs like Field, Hoey and Stuart were a core part of the Vote Leave campaign and helped convince over a third of Labour voters to vote Leave while Corbyn did virtually nothing at all for the Remain campaign. Indeed almost as many Labour voters backed Leave as Tory voters backed Remain. Only the LDs can claim to have genuinely had all their MPs backing Remain and the vast majority of their voters and to have stuck to a soft Brexit position after the result
The Tories own Brexit - they led the Leave and Remain campaigns, they headlined the debates, they set the referendum agenda and they are now in power and have been throughout this entire period. Tory cabinet ministers told voters leaving would be pain-free and easy. And the Tories are now making a complete pig's ear of the exit process.
"Own" in this context is a classic weasel word. May neither advocated, campaigned for, voted for nor welcomed Brexit, which is what your argument demands, so we'll say her party "owns" it. It doesn't.
There's a serious point here. Once selected as party leader and PM, Theresa May could have said, my job is to see Britain leave the EU as mandated by the referendum, to work with all sides in the UK and our partners in the EU to do this with the least disruption possible, and for the UK to be the best friends possible to the EU going forward. That would reassure remain voters, UK businesses and European partners. Instead of which she went more Kipper than a North Sea herring.
Quite right. The idea she had to campaign for it for her now to own it is ridiculous. She made her decision after becoming leader.
So much of Brexit is now dependent on whether Corbyn wants to bring down the Tories by pivoting to Remain, or to push through with his Leaver convictions.
Get the feeling that the Tories won power but don't have a clue what direction they are heading. Philip Hammond suggests a national debate about whether taxes should increase to pay for better public services. David Davis and other cabinet ministers want a more flexible approach to Brexit negotiations without the red lines Theresa May insisted on previously.
Tory/DUP coalition of chaos will last a few months, before Theresa May is toppled by her Tory cabinet colleagues and they cancel the deal with the DUP. The new Tory leader/PM will then try to continue with an early election in April 2018. Brexit will be delayed by years, as article 50 is extended by agreement with the EU.
This is my prediction based on the messy situation we have at the moment.
The EU will not extend the time frames. The UK has made its bed and now it has to lie in it! The UK lemmings are going over the cliff and the only way back will be on the EU's terms. (i.e. Join the Euro, opt in to the opt-outs, say goodbye to the rebate, and less influence). What a total screw-up!
From my knowledge of EU politics I don't think they'd be as unhelpful as you think if we did want to stay. But they're not in the mood to spin the process out for the convenience of UK domestic politics, which they regard with increasing exasperation. "If you're going, let's get on with it. If you'd like to reconsider, that's different." sums it up.
I think that's right. Also, while they want the least damage to them and a deal, they will take the hit if our dysfunctional government doesn't or can't get its act together. They will stick to their timetable
Tories certainly own Brexit. It's on them entirely.
Strangely I've never seen you list the issues which Labour own entirely. Might you just be astroturfing?
Here's a start:
PFI Public sector overspending The attempt creation of a client state The signing of the Lisbon treaty The extension of the EU without controls on freedom of movement
Get the feeling that the Tories won power but don't have a clue what direction they are heading. Philip Hammond suggests a national debate about whether taxes should increase to pay for better public services. David Davis and other cabinet ministers want a more flexible approach to Brexit negotiations without the red lines Theresa May insisted on previously.
Tory/DUP coalition of chaos will last a few months, before Theresa May is toppled by her Tory cabinet colleagues and they cancel the deal with the DUP. The new Tory leader/PM will then try to continue with an early election in April 2018. Brexit will be delayed by years, as article 50 is extended by agreement with the EU.
This is my prediction based on the messy situation we have at the moment.
The EU will not extend the time frames. The UK has made its bed and now it has to lie in it! The UK lemmings are going over the cliff and the only way back will be on the EU's terms. (i.e. Join the Euro, opt in to the opt-outs, say goodbye to the rebate, and less influence). What a total screw-up!
From my knowledge of EU politics I don't think they'd be as unhelpful as you think if we did want to stay. But they're not in the mood to spin the process out for the convenience of UK domestic politics, which they regard with increasing exasperation. "If you're going, let's get on with it. If you'd like to reconsider, that's different." sums it up.
I think that's right. Also, while they want the least damage to them and a deal, they will take the hit if our dysfunctional government doesn't or can't get its act together. They will stick to their timetable
The suggestion that they might make a late offer to the UK that it can stay in on more or less current terms is an interesting one. Depending on public opinion and economic circumstances at the time, this could clearly lead straight to a second referendum.
Tories certainly own Brexit. It's on them entirely.
Strangely I've never seen you list the issues which Labour own entirely. Might you just be astroturfing?
Here's a start:
PFI Public sector overspending The attempt creation of a client state The signing of the Lisbon treaty The extension of the EU without controls on freedom of movement
So much of Brexit is now dependent on whether Corbyn wants to bring down the Tories by pivoting to Remain, or to push through with his Leaver convictions.
Labour's best chance is to wait until Brexit goes sour and to get in on the back of the ensuing discontent. Corbyn himself might be too old for the opportunity, however. His colleagues are overwhelmingly Remain and I suspect they would be willing to follow public opinion in turning against Brexit, but don't have the courage to lead it there.
Hitting the reset button on a personal computer clears the memory and forcibly reboots the machine. That is what Nicola Sturgeon failed to do last week when she addressed only the timing of a referendum and further nudged her party, like a wonky PC, into what could be its meltdown.
Sturgeon’s government is in a dismal place right now, and not having the humility to recognise the reality of the consequences of her party’s failings will be at the root of its demise. Yes, the SNP won the Westminster election, but it lost the campaign, and with it went more than just the 21 MPs and the scalps of totemic figures like Alex Salmond. It has lost momentum, and after three successive elections that evidence a trajectory of down, gone too is that spirit of reinvention, of a seemingly inexhaustible ability to pick itself up and shake itself down.
And worse, Sturgeon, a giant of a politician, appears shrunken, cut down to size, reduced to name calling and defensively sniping from the sides. And it isn’t worthy.
So much of Brexit is now dependent on whether Corbyn wants to bring down the Tories by pivoting to Remain, or to push through with his Leaver convictions.
Corbyn wants to keep the UKIP voters and Labour Leave voters he won in June so will stick to his Leaver convictions, he has always been apathetic about the EU anyway seeing it as a block to socialism
"So, people in Northern Ireland would get the extra resources from a Labour government – not as a “bung” to buy DUP votes – but as part of a drive to improve public services and raise living standards throughout the UK."
When Labour do deals with the DUP it's to raise living standards. When Tories do deals with the DUP it's a bung.
Right, got it.
When I strike a deal, it's in the national interest. When you strike one, it's a corrupt bargain.
I guess that you're both making a party political point. It's quite simple to see what Don Brind meant, that Corbyn would apply extra resources to the whole of the UK not just NI. It would be better if you accepted the point he was making and argue against that rather than deliberately misinterpreting what he was saying.
What "extra resources"? Are there some extra resources available for everyone everywhere? Great, I'll vote for that - more of everything at no cost to anyone paid for by all those extra resources. Why did nobody think of that before?
So much of Brexit is now dependent on whether Corbyn wants to bring down the Tories by pivoting to Remain, or to push through with his Leaver convictions.
For better or worse Corbyn has never struck me as someone to compromise on his beliefs. This is the man who divorced his wife rather than be seen to compromise on his kid's schooling.
Tories certainly own Brexit. It's on them entirely.
Strangely I've never seen you list the issues which Labour own entirely. Might you just be astroturfing?
Here's a start:
PFI Public sector overspending The attempt creation of a client state The signing of the Lisbon treaty The extension of the EU without controls on freedom of movement
Anymore for anymore?
PFI started under John Major, although it is true that Gordon Brown loved the drug. Public sector overspending didn't start with Labour. Given Mrs T's role in signing many of the key EU treaties, you can't really pin the extension of the EU solely on Labour either.
Tories certainly own Brexit. It's on them entirely.
Strangely I've never seen you list the issues which Labour own entirely. Might you just be astroturfing?
Here's a start:
PFI Public sector overspending The attempt creation of a client state The signing of the Lisbon treaty The extension of the EU without controls on freedom of movement
Anymore for anymore?
You missed Iraq
Amazingly, there are still Blairites who argue this was the right thing to do...
All this debate over whether the Tories own Brexit or not. Surely the Tory party should be leaping at the chance to own Brexit and be forever associated with it? Imagine, getting all the credit for the rebirth of our nation. Carpe diem, carpe brexit.
So much of Brexit is now dependent on whether Corbyn wants to bring down the Tories by pivoting to Remain, or to push through with his Leaver convictions.
For better or worse Corbyn has never struck me as someone to compromise on his beliefs. This is the man who divorced his wife rather than be seen to compromise on his kid's schooling.
On the reasonable assumption that he campaigned for Remain purely for party management purposes, I'm inclined to agree. The trouble is that the rest of the shadow cabinet (McDonell excepted) will push for the pivot, and I don't think Corbyn cares more about leaving the EU than winning a general election.
Tories certainly own Brexit. It's on them entirely.
The roots of Brexit are in the Lisbon Treaty. We were offered a referendum on the European Constitution, the EU lost one in France, so the Constitution was redrawn into the Lisbon treaty. In effect it was the same thing. Except we weren't given the choice.
That was on Brown, and it was the point at which a referendum on membership as a whole became inevitable.
Tories certainly own Brexit. It's on them entirely.
Strangely I've never seen you list the issues which Labour own entirely. Might you just be astroturfing?
Here's a start:
PFI Public sector overspending The attempt creation of a client state The signing of the Lisbon treaty The extension of the EU without controls on freedom of movement
Anymore for anymore?
You missed Iraq
Amazingly, there are still Blairites who argue this was the right thing to do...
Tories certainly own Brexit. It's on them entirely.
Strangely I've never seen you list the issues which Labour own entirely. Might you just be astroturfing?
Here's a start:
PFI Public sector overspending The attempt creation of a client state The signing of the Lisbon treaty The extension of the EU without controls on freedom of movement
Anymore for anymore?
You missed Iraq
Amazingly, there are still Blairites who argue this was the right thing to do...
Scary.
Isn't that just Blair himself, now? And maybe little Alastair.
So much of Brexit is now dependent on whether Corbyn wants to bring down the Tories by pivoting to Remain, or to push through with his Leaver convictions.
For better or worse Corbyn has never struck me as someone to compromise on his beliefs. This is the man who divorced his wife rather than be seen to compromise on his kid's schooling.
On the reasonable assumption that he campaigned for Remain purely for party management purposes, I'm inclined to agree. The trouble is that the rest of the shadow cabinet (McDonell excepted) will push for the pivot, and I don't think Corbyn cares more about leaving the EU than winning a general election.
Do we honestly think pivoting on Brexit will help?
Given the concentration of Remainers in large cities, how does it help win an election under FPTP, even before you take the significant Remainers but not Labour vote...
So much of Brexit is now dependent on whether Corbyn wants to bring down the Tories by pivoting to Remain, or to push through with his Leaver convictions.
For better or worse Corbyn has never struck me as someone to compromise on his beliefs. This is the man who divorced his wife rather than be seen to compromise on his kid's schooling.
On the reasonable assumption that he campaigned for Remain purely for party management purposes, I'm inclined to agree. The trouble is that the rest of the shadow cabinet (McDonell excepted) will push for the pivot, and I don't think Corbyn cares more about leaving the EU than winning a general election.
If Labour pivots to Remain and uncontrolled free movement bang go all their Leave voters so Corbyn won't go that far
The country now appears to be fully into the Stockholm Syndrome stage of Brexit as we stagger on our inevitable journey to become the land of the grumpy and home of the free. Things to look forward to - guinness book of records entry for a collective I Told You So Topping the medal table in the Island Games
Of course the world needs to negotiate Kim Jong Un finding the matches first.
Tories certainly own Brexit. It's on them entirely.
Strangely I've never seen you list the issues which Labour own entirely. Might you just be astroturfing?
Here's a start:
PFI Public sector overspending The attempt creation of a client state The signing of the Lisbon treaty The extension of the EU without controls on freedom of movement
Anymore for anymore?
You missed Iraq
Amazingly, there are still Blairites who argue this was the right thing to do...
Scary.
Isn't that just Blair himself, now? And maybe little Alastair.
Tories certainly own Brexit. It's on them entirely.
Strangely I've never seen you list the issues which Labour own entirely. Might you just be astroturfing?
Here's a start:
PFI Public sector overspending The attempt creation of a client state The signing of the Lisbon treaty The extension of the EU without controls on freedom of movement
Anymore for anymore?
You missed Iraq
Amazingly, there are still Blairites who argue this was the right thing to do...
Scary.
Isn't that just Blair himself, now? And maybe little Alastair.
I can't remember specifics, but was quite surprised to find a few defenders when I linked to a John Mc article a few years ago...
Tories certainly own Brexit. It's on them entirely.
Repeating a crap metaphor does not reduce the crapness of the metaphor.
No one is saying that May is not more useless than a filigree condom, but a competent opposition would be agitating to take over ownership of the issue and do something useful with it. If all labour can say is that we are going to point at May and laugh when it all goes pear shaped, that simply confirms that labour have nothing useful to say. If there were a Blair in the picture, May would be dead in the water. Happily Corbyn has pulled off the astonishing feat of outdoing her in uselessness, and is entrenched in power. So it doesn't really matter what May does or doesn't own.
Quite right. The idea she had to campaign for it for her now to own it is ridiculous. She made her decision after becoming leader.
That's the curious thing.
She was up against Andrea Leadsom, the headbangers' headbanger, and had seen her off with ease.
That should have alerted her that she didn't need the headbangers on board. Instead it apparently convinced her the only path to victory was to cleave to their every wish.
When she won the leadership, I (foolishly) thought the grown ups had won. Then she gave that speech...
The sheer incompetence of the Conservative party's approach to Brexit really is something to behold. They have no idea what they want, no understanding of what will happen when we do leave and no plan to deal with any of it. What an absolute shower of shite they are.
British manufacturers are fast approaching a “tipping point” where a lack of certainty over the direction of Brexit negotiations will force them to make painful cuts whatever the outcome, they say. The stark warning, due to be delivered on Tuesday by Engineering Employers’ Federation chief executive Terry Scuoler, comes as business leaders begin a week of crunch meetings with government ministers to try to force the pace of thinking over how to ensure economic stability when Britain leaves the European Union.
You're much more interesting when you take the partisan spectacles off. Theresa May has been constant on no single market, no EU Customs Union, no freedom of movement and no ECJ jurisdiction since January.
It's your party that promises 'not being in the Customs union or single market but with all the benefits'. What would you call promising something by definition unachievable?
I'd call it lying.
Being They are making an absolute Horlicks of it.
Not all, Cameron, Osborne, Hunt, Morgan, Rudd, Javid, even May all backed Remain. Labour MPs like Field, Hoey and Stuart were a core part of the Vote Leave campaign and helped convince over a third of Labour voters to vote Leave while Corbyn did virtually nothing at all for the Remain campaign. Indeed almost as many Labour voters backed Leave as Tory voters backed Remain. Only the LDs can claim to have genuinely had all their MPs backing Remain and the vast majority of their voters and to have stuck to a soft Brexit position after the result
The Tories own Brexit - they led the Leave and Remain campaigns, they headlined the debates, they set the referendum agenda and they are now in power and have been throughout this entire period. Tory cabinet ministers told voters leaving would be pain-free and easy. And the Tories are now making a complete pig's ear of the exit process.
"Own" in this context is a classic weasel word. May neither advocated, campaigned for, voted for nor welcomed Brexit, which is what your argument demands, so we'll say her party "owns" it. It doesn't.
By the same token Blair doesn't 'own' Iraq. I doubt many would agree with you
The sheer incompetence of the Conservative party's approach to Brexit really is something to behold. They have no idea what they want, no understanding of what will happen when we do leave and no plan to deal with any of it. What an absolute shower of shite they are.
British manufacturers are fast approaching a “tipping point” where a lack of certainty over the direction of Brexit negotiations will force them to make painful cuts whatever the outcome, they say. The stark warning, due to be delivered on Tuesday by Engineering Employers’ Federation chief executive Terry Scuoler, comes as business leaders begin a week of crunch meetings with government ministers to try to force the pace of thinking over how to ensure economic stability when Britain leaves the European Union.
You're much more interesting when you take the partisan spectacles off. Theresa May has been constant on no single market, no EU Customs Union, no freedom of movement and no ECJ jurisdiction since January.
It's your party that promises 'not being in the Customs union or single market but with all the benefits'. What would you call promising something by definition unachievable?
I'd call it lying.
Being They are making an absolute Horlicks of it.
Not result
The Tories own Brexit - they led the Leave and Remain campaigns, they headlined the debates,
No. other EU nations
Yep - good luck with that on the doorsteps. The government is not responsible for the mess it is making of Brexit, it's your fault for voting Leave; oh and Tony Blair's, too.
It is. At the end of the day Leave voters made their bed by voting Brexit and have to lie in it whether we have a Tory or Labour government now makes no difference to the fact they will be implementing the result Leave voters voted for. Plus the only reason Leave won more than 50% of the vote was because of the lack of controls on Eastern European migration under Blair
There is no obligation on the government to implement Brexit so cack-handedly, That it is doing such a catastrophically bad job is no-one's fault but its own.
Tories certainly own Brexit. It's on them entirely.
Strangely I've never seen you list the issues which Labour own entirely. Might you just be astroturfing?
Here's a start:
PFI Public sector overspending The attempt creation of a client state The signing of the Lisbon treaty The extension of the EU without controls on freedom of movement
Anymore for anymore?
You missed Iraq
Amazingly, there are still Blairites who argue this was the right thing to do...
The troops were already in place - to vote against was not really possible without a massive loss of implied UK authority in the world. It was a vote, but a rigged one.
Tories certainly own Brexit. It's on them entirely.
Repeating a crap metaphor does not reduce the crapness of the metaphor.
No one is saying that May is not more useless than a filigree condom, but a competent opposition would be agitating to take over ownership of the issue and do something useful with it. If all labour can say is that we are going to point at May and laugh when it all goes pear shaped, that simply confirms that labour have nothing useful to say. If there were a Blair in the picture, May would be dead in the water. Happily Corbyn has pulled off the astonishing feat of outdoing her in uselessness, and is entrenched in power. So it doesn't really matter what May does or doesn't own.
Bang on.
And worse, too. Labour's attempted two horse riding on this is not some clever strategy, it is the result of two elements of the party (PLP, activists and voters) disagreeing massively, in public.
As things get further along the line they won't be able to do it. It's short term tactics at the cost of long term strategy.
Tories certainly own Brexit. It's on them entirely.
Strangely I've never seen you list the issues which Labour own entirely. Might you just be astroturfing?
Here's a start:
PFI Public sector overspending The attempt creation of a client state The signing of the Lisbon treaty The extension of the EU without controls on freedom of movement
Anymore for anymore?
You missed Iraq
Amazingly, there are still Blairites who argue this was the right thing to do...
Scary.
Rather more importantly it wasn't just Blairites that supported the Iraq invasion at the time. We all make mistakes, so it's OK to change your mind. But it would be better not to make the mistake in the first place. It should be obvious to a reasonably objective person with some curiosity, but no specialist knowledge, that both the Iraq invasion and Brexit were unlikely to turn out well - for somewhat similar reasons. Yet many intelligent people failed to see the problems for both projects.
The sheer incompetence of the Conservative party's approach to Brexit really is something to behold. They have no idea what they want, no understanding of what will happen when we do leave and no plan to deal with any of it. What an absolute shower of shite they are.
British manufacturers are fast approaching a “tipping point” where a lack of certainty over the direction of Brexit negotiations will force them to make painful cuts whatever the outcome, they say. The stark warning, due to ] pace of thinking over how to ensure economic stability when Britain leaves the European Union.
You're much more interesting when you take the partisan spectacles off. Theresa May has been constant on no single market, no EU Customs Union, no freedom of movement and no ECJ jurisdiction since January.
It's your party that promises 'not being in the Customs union or single market but with all the benefits'. What would you call promising something by definition unachievable?
I'd call it lying.
Being They are making an absolute Horlicks of it.
Not all, Cameron, Osborne, Hunt, Morgan, Rudd, Javid, even May all backed Remain. Labour MPs like Field, Hoey and Stuart were a core part of the Vote Leave campaign and helped convince over a third of Labour voters to vote Leave while Corbyn did virtually nothing at all for the Remain campaign. Indeed almost as many Labour voters backed Leave as Tory voters backed Remain. Only the LDs can claim to have genuinely had all their MPs backing Remain and the vast majority of their voters and to have stuck to a soft Brexit position after the result
The Tories own Brexit - they led the Leave and Remain campaigns, they headlined the debates, they set the referendum agenda and they are now in power and have been throughout this entire period. Tory cabinet ministers told voters leaving would be pain-free and easy. And the Tories are now making a complete pig's ear of the exit process.
"Own" in this context is a classic weasel word. May neither advocated, campaigned for, voted for nor welcomed Brexit, which is what your argument demands, so we'll say her party "owns" it. It doesn't.
By the same token Blair doesn't 'own' Iraq. I doubt many would agree with you
Of course he owns it! He stood shoulder to shoulder with Dubya!
A Labour minority government which required the votes of DUP, and Liberal Democrats, as well as SNP, etc could not possibly have a Corbynite programme. It would have to compromise so much to get its programme through, it would be almost new Labour in what it could get through. Irony.
You're much more interesting when you take the partisan spectacles off. Theresa May has been constant on no single market, no EU Customs Union, no freedom of movement and no ECJ jurisdiction since January.
It's your party that promises 'not being in the Customs union or single market but with all the benefits'. What would you call promising something by definition unachievable?
I'd call it lying.
Being They are making an absolute Horlicks of it.
Not result
The Tories own Brexit - they led the Leave and Remain campaigns, they headlined the debates,
No. other EU nations
Yep - good luck with that on the doorsteps. The government is not responsible for the mess it is making of Brexit, it's your fault for voting Leave; oh and Tony Blair's, too.
It is. At the end of the day Leave voters made their bed by voting Brexit and have to lie in it whether we have a Tory or Labour government now makes no difference to the fact they will be implementing the result Leave voters voted for. Plus the only reason Leave won more than 50% of the vote was because of the lack of controls on Eastern European migration under Blair
There is no obligation on the government to implement Brexit so cack-handedly, That it is doing such a catastrophically bad job is no-one's fault but its own.
There is an obligation for the government to control free movement which is the main reason Leave won a majority and hence also that means leaving the single market in all probability unless we can get the EU to agree to some delayed version of the transition controls on Eastern European migration Blair failed to impose
For those interested in such things, it looks as though the Austrian GP will be a wet race. Might just increase the chances of Morris Dancer's extremely long odds bet on Force India coming off...
Bogdanor reminded me of the Foundation Trilogy by Isaac Asimov. Jezza was the 'Mule' factored in by Hari Seldon and ignored by the Empire and Bogdanor.
Wasn't the mule a sterile genius ? Corbyn, by contrast, is a fecund fool.
Tories certainly own Brexit. It's on them entirely.
Strangely I've never seen you list the issues which Labour own entirely. Might you just be astroturfing?
Here's a start:
PFI Public sector overspending The attempt creation of a client state The signing of the Lisbon treaty The extension of the EU without controls on freedom of movement
Anymore for anymore?
Labour should indeed be condemned for PFI but for one reason or another the Conservatives seem rather keen on it themselves, and did invent it. The only leading politician I recall campaigning against PFI was Ken Livingstone. The next two on your list are just question-begging Conservative political posturing; Labour would not accept that either were true. Lisbon, yes (with opt-outs) but it is hard to see even the most Eurosceptic voters judging Lisbon more harshly than Maastricht or the Single European Act. Transitional restrictions on freedom of movement were not imposed, it is true, but they'd have expired by now anyway.
Tories certainly own Brexit. It's on them entirely.
Strangely I've never seen you list the issues which Labour own entirely. Might you just be astroturfing?
Here's a start:
PFI Public sector overspending The attempt creation of a client state The signing of the Lisbon treaty The extension of the EU without controls on freedom of movement
Anymore for anymore?
Labour should indeed be condemned for PFI but for one reason or another the Conservatives seem rather keen on it themselves, and did invent it. The only leading politician I recall campaigning against PFI was Ken Livingstone. The next two on your list are just question-begging Conservative political posturing; Labour would not accept that either were true. Lisbon, yes (with opt-outs) but it is hard to see even the most Eurosceptic voters judging Lisbon more harshly than Maastricht or the Single European Act. Transitional restrictions on freedom of movement were not imposed, it is true, but they'd have expired by now anyway.
Iraq might be a better example.
Iraq...I recall the Tories being gungho....as they are now cosying up to Trump on Syria....
Mr Brind doesn't address how the DUP get past Corbyn's previous IRA links or avowed wish for a United Ireland - non-trivial matters......
By not talking about them? The DUP manage (or managed) to work with Sinn Fein which has IRA links and wants a united Ireland. And you seem to have accidentally typed "Corbyn's previous IRA links" rather than Sinn Fein links.
Oh, did Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness have nothing to do with the IRA, then?
It's a question of hats. When they met Corbyn, were they wearing their Sinn Fein hats or their IRA hats? There is enough ambiguity to fudge the issue, should it become expedient.
Dancing on pinheads there.
The election result suggests a substantial number of voters were happy enough to fudge the hats question or even to dismiss it as ancient history. I expect the DUP could do the same should the need arise. My issue with the headline piece is that I cannot see a mechanism whereby it would matter.
You're much more interesting when you take the partisan spectacles off. Theresa May has been constant on no single market, no EU Customs Union, no freedom of movement and no ECJ jurisdiction since January.
It's your party that promises 'not being in the Customs union or single market but with all the benefits'. What would you call promising something by definition unachievable?
I'd call it lying.
Being They are making an absolute Horlicks of it.
Not result
The Tories own Brexit - they led the Leave and Remain campaigns, they headlined the debates,
No. other EU nations
Yep - good luck with that on the doorsteps. The government is not responsible for the mess it is making of Brexit, it's your fault for voting Leave; oh and Tony Blair's, too.
It is. At the end of the day Leave voters made their bed by voting Brexit and have to lie in it whether we have a Tory or Labour government now makes no difference to the fact they will be implementing the result Leave voters voted for. Plus the only reason Leave won more than 50% of the vote was because of the lack of controls on Eastern European migration under Blair
There is no obligation on the government to implement Brexit so cack-handedly, That it is doing such a catastrophically bad job is no-one's fault but its own.
There is an obligation for the government to control free movement which is the main reason Leave won a majority and hence also that means leaving the single market in all probability unless we can get the EU to agree to some delayed version of the transition controls on Eastern European migration Blair failed to impose
No, the government's obligation is to secure Brexit. It chooses what kind of Brexit to pursue. As yet, it has failed to do so. This is the government's fault, no-one else's.
You're much more interesting when you take the partisan spectacles off. Theresa May has been constant on no single market, no EU Customs Union, no freedom of movement and no ECJ jurisdiction since January.
It's your party that promises 'not being in the Customs union or single market but with all the benefits'. What would you call promising something by definition unachievable?
I'd call it lying.
Being They are making an absolute Horlicks of it.
Not result
The Tories own Brexit - they led the Leave and Remain campaigns, they headlined the debates,
No. other EU nations
Yep - good luck with that on the doorsteps. The government is not responsible for the mess it is making of Brexit, it's your fault for voting Leave; oh and Tony Blair's, too.
It is. At the end of the day Leave voters made their bed by voting Brexit and have to lie in it whether we have a Tory or Labour government now makes no difference to the fact they will be implementing the result Leave voters voted for. Plus the only reason Leave won more than 50% of the vote was because of the lack of controls on Eastern European migration under Blair
There is no obligation on the government to implement Brexit so cack-handedly, That it is doing such a catastrophically bad job is no-one's fault but its own.
There is an obligation for the government to control free movement which is the main reason Leave won a majority and hence also that means leaving the single market in all probability unless we can get the EU to agree to some delayed version of the transition controls on Eastern European migration Blair failed to impose
Freedom of movement might be an issue but the much-revered Dominic Cummings wrote that the main reason Leave won was the £350 million for the NHS promise.
The Tories own Brexit - they led the Leave and Remain campaigns, they headlined the debates, they set the referendum agenda and they are now in power and have been throughout this entire period. Tory cabinet ministers told voters leaving would be pain-free and easy. And the Tories are now making a complete pig's ear of the exit process.
No. 17 million Leave voters own Brexit, end of including plenty of Labour MPs. As a Tory Remain voter I resent being told I 'own' Brexit when a Labour Leave voter does not. In any case the ultimate blame for Brexit likes with Tony Blair and his failure to impose transition controls on migration from the new accession countries in 2004 unlike most other EU nations
Technically correct but in the eyes of most voters leaving the EU has always been a right wing Tory obsession, from Major's "bastards" to Tory MPs defecting to UKIP . As SO correctly states the whole issue from the ill-considered referendum to implementation has taken place on the Tories watch. The perception is the Tories do "own" it I'm afraid.
The supreme irony of course is that the end result of the machinations of Bill Cash,Farage et al is likely to be the most left wing government this country has seen in decades, unconstrained by EU regulation on nationalisation etc.
Just made a hash of trying to delete previous posts in reply because it was to long. Could someone explain how to do it properly. The last 2 paras are my response to HYUFD but I obviously did it wrong. Apologies
Just made a hash of trying to delete previous posts in reply because it was to long. Could someone explain how to do it properly. The last 2 paras are my response to HYUFD but I obviously did it wrong. Apologies
You need matching pairs of < blockquotes > </ blockquotes>, otherwise it gets mangled....
The safest thing to do is only delete text within blockquotes, rather than the code itself....
Comments
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40489359
He's done 6 other lectures on Britain and Europe. He's happy to point out that the French deliberately kept us out until they'd locked in the CAP and CFP to their benefit, which was clearly a hostile act.
One can believe in a federal future for Britain and still make interesting and valid observations.
Iain Duncan Smith: My message to these panic-stricken, self-indulgent Cabinet members. Pull yourselves together.
http://www.conservativehome.com/thecolumnists/2017/07/iain-duncan-smith-panic-infighting-and-ill-founded-analyses-of-the-election-including-from-the-cabinet-are-pointless.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/11681587/Andy-Burnham-vs-Yvette-Cooper-who-won-the-Labour-Newsnight-debate.html
Oh, and they called the referendum.
Here's a start:
PFI
Public sector overspending
The attempt creation of a client state
The signing of the Lisbon treaty
The extension of the EU without controls on freedom of movement
Anymore for anymore?
I've always wanted to "own" a "vision".
It's on my New Age Bucket List.
Scary.
What could possibly go wrong?
Privatise that and we'll be laughing.
That was on Brown, and it was the point at which a referendum on membership as a whole became inevitable.
https://inews.co.uk/explainers/iq/current-labour-mps-voted-iraq-war/
Given the concentration of Remainers in large cities, how does it help win an election under FPTP, even before you take the significant Remainers but not Labour vote...
Things to look forward to - guinness book of records entry for a collective I Told You So
Topping the medal table in the Island Games
Of course the world needs to negotiate Kim Jong Un finding the matches first.
No one is saying that May is not more useless than a filigree condom, but a competent opposition would be agitating to take over ownership of the issue and do something useful with it. If all labour can say is that we are going to point at May and laugh when it all goes pear shaped, that simply confirms that labour have nothing useful to say. If there were a Blair in the picture, May would be dead in the water. Happily Corbyn has pulled off the astonishing feat of outdoing her in uselessness, and is entrenched in power. So it doesn't really matter what May does or doesn't own.
She was up against Andrea Leadsom, the headbangers' headbanger, and had seen her off with ease.
That should have alerted her that she didn't need the headbangers on board. Instead it apparently convinced her the only path to victory was to cleave to their every wish.
When she won the leadership, I (foolishly) thought the grown ups had won. Then she gave that speech...
As far as actually doing things or making tough decisions etc he has zero experience at that.
In the election that didn't matter as nobody was expecting him to make tough decisions. In office it would be very different.
And worse, too. Labour's attempted two horse riding on this is not some clever strategy, it is the result of two elements of the party (PLP, activists and voters) disagreeing massively, in public.
As things get further along the line they won't be able to do it. It's short term tactics at the cost of long term strategy.
He sacked all the remainers
Might just increase the chances of Morris Dancer's extremely long odds bet on Force India coming off...
Corbyn, by contrast, is a fecund fool.
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/jul/04/michael-gove-extremism-trojan-horse-schools
Have to have a filling. Humbug. Had horrendous luck over the last month or so (only good form coming in my Frank Spencerish betting flukes).
Iraq might be a better example.
No. 17 million Leave voters own Brexit, end of including plenty of Labour MPs. As a Tory Remain voter I resent being told I 'own' Brexit when a Labour Leave voter does not. In any case the ultimate blame for Brexit likes with Tony Blair and his failure to impose transition controls on migration from the new accession countries in 2004 unlike most other EU nations
Technically correct but in the eyes of most voters leaving the EU has always been a right wing Tory obsession, from Major's "bastards" to Tory MPs defecting to UKIP . As SO correctly states the whole issue from the ill-considered referendum to implementation has taken place on the Tories watch. The perception is the Tories do "own" it I'm afraid.
The supreme irony of course is that the end result of the machinations of Bill Cash,Farage et al is likely to be the most left wing government this country has seen in decades, unconstrained by EU regulation on nationalisation etc.
The safest thing to do is only delete text within blockquotes, rather than the code itself....