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  • glwglw Posts: 9,535

    You can't run a country like that though. Even if we were to get a Corbyn government, the public is unlikely to agree with everything Corbyn says.

    I'm 99% certain that most Labour voters have no bloody idea what Corbyn and McDonnell really stand for, they just heard the "free stuff" at election time and went for it. They could do with a lot wider and deeper scrutiny as some of the things they are for are properly mad.
  • nunununu Posts: 6,024
    tlg86 said:

    surbiton said:

    Prof. Bogdanor is on BBC Parliament now. Worth watching.

    Thanks, much better than Glastonbury.
    will straw, the leader of stronger in.
  • Bobajob_PBBobajob_PB Posts: 928

    Jesus. It's happening. Corbyn is a rock star.

    He really isn't.

    Jesus. It's happening. Corbyn is a rock star.

    He really isn't.
    Sorry to break it to you...
  • nunununu Posts: 6,024

    Jesus. It's happening. Corbyn is a rock star.

    He really isn't.

    Jesus. It's happening. Corbyn is a rock star.

    He really isn't.
    Sorry to break it to you...
    He is for a certain section of society.

    He is still crap in Parliament though.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    What are the foo fighters roots, who should i compare them to from the early seventies? Help needed
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,001
    glw said:

    You can't run a country like that though. Even if we were to get a Corbyn government, the public is unlikely to agree with everything Corbyn says.

    I'm 99% certain that most Labour voters have no bloody idea what Corbyn and McDonnell really stand for, they just heard the "free stuff" at election time and went for it. They could do with a lot wider and deeper scrutiny as some of the things they are for are properly mad.
    Like £10 min wage for 16 year olds. End of paper rounds, students waitressing, and most everything you can think a young inexperienced person works at at present as employers opt for older experience
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,957
    nichomar said:

    What are the foo fighters roots, who should i compare them to from the early seventies? Help needed

    Dave Groll was the drummer with Nirvana. If that helps.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,164
    nunu said:

    tlg86 said:

    surbiton said:

    Prof. Bogdanor is on BBC Parliament now. Worth watching.

    Thanks, much better than Glastonbury.
    will straw, the leader of stronger in.
    He says the postal votes were splitting 60-40 for Leave which they knew was going to be tough to come back from. That would probably explain Cameron's strange statement a couple of days before the vote.
  • stodge said:

    GeoffM said:


    And yet we should still listen to all of the non-Conservative partisans on here who say May is the wrong person?

    Is a Conservative Government always better than the alternative ?

    Its usually the least worst. Occasionally the alternatives are better or there has to be a change.

  • franklynfranklyn Posts: 297
    Has anyone heard from Sean T. Is it true that he has been evacuated from his tower block bedsit in Neasden; poor chap
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,910

    Jesus. It's happening. Corbyn is a rock star.

    He really isn't.
    I Gove Rock And Roll!
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830



    It seems anyone who dares to have politics even marginally different from Jeremy Corbyn is considered to be a Tory by Corbynistas. To them, the words Conservative and Blairite have lost any coherent meaning. 'Tory' and 'Blairite' now simply mean 'anyone that I don't like' for Corbynistas.

    Corbynistas vary, just like any other group. I know lots, but can only think of two who correspond to your stereotype, which actually rather resembles the way they describe Tories as "all the same". With respect, PB works better when we don't generalise about each other.

    But while at present I know what Corbyn's Labour is for, while the purpose of Conservatives (to stop Corbyn and get some unspecified kind of Brexit?) and the LibDems (another referendum and...?) is largely shrouded in mystery. That was ALSO true of Labour in 2010 - speaking as a candidate, it was all about "stop the Tories". I think that the explosion of youth interest in Corbyn is that he's brought idealism back into fashion - the Tories will be making a mistake if they think that just addressing tuition fees will make much differemnce.
    Unfortunately my experience of Corbynistas has not been very positive, in either real life or on social media. I don't have an issue with them disagreeing with me, just that so many of them feel that it's a crime to disagree!

    It's true to say Corbyn's Labour has a much more coherent idea of what it is for than either the Conservatives and the LDs. The LDs made the tactical mistake of believing that there was a '48%' - when really there was only a 22% and many Remainers, not unreasonably, decided that they could make far more of an anti-Hard Brexit statement voting Labour than LD (despite Corbyn/McDonnell's position on Brexit). The Conservatives issues stem from many things, partly the lack of Tory talent, partly Cameron's leadership ending, and May's lack of an idea as to what she actually stands for.

  • glwglw Posts: 9,535
    edited June 2017

    Like £10 min wage for 16 year olds. End of paper rounds, students waitressing, and most everything you can think a young inexperienced person works at at present as employers opt for older experience

    Exactly, they wouldn't get £10 they'd get nothing. Which is basically a good summary of Corbynism (not that I think for a moment he has any sort of coherent philosophy of government and economics), promises that can not be kept.

    Corbyn is the UK's Trump, and far closer than Farage ever was.
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548

    Jesus. It's happening. Corbyn is a rock star.

    He really isn't.

    Jesus. It's happening. Corbyn is a rock star.

    He really isn't.
    Sorry to break it to you...
    He's Jeremy, and so's his wife.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830

    Jesus. It's happening. Corbyn is a rock star.

    He really isn't.

    Jesus. It's happening. Corbyn is a rock star.

    He really isn't.
    Sorry to break it to you...
    If Corbyn is a rockstar, then so is Trump. After all, Trump has drawn plenty of crowds in the states and has many fanatical supporters just like Corbyn does.

    Corbyn is a marmite figure, and it may feel like he's this hugely popular guy in part because he was coming from such a low point in terms of his personal ratings.

    The last politician who was really a 'rockstar' was Barack Obama. That was a guy who actually did enjoy near universal popularity at one stage - being near-universally admired across the world in 2008. That's the kind of popularity Corbyn can only dream of.
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited June 2017



    It seems anyone who dares to have politics even marginally different from Jeremy Corbyn is considered to be a Tory by Corbynistas. To them, the words Conservative and Blairite have lost any coherent meaning. 'Tory' and 'Blairite' now simply mean 'anyone that I don't like' for Corbynistas.

    Corbynistas vary, just like any other group. I know lots, but can only think of two who correspond to your stereotype, which actually rather resembles the way they describe Tories as "all the same". With respect, PB works better when we don't generalise about each other.

    But while at present I know what Corbyn's Labour is for, while the purpose of Conservatives (to stop Corbyn and get some unspecified kind of Brexit?) and the LibDems (another referendum and...?) is largely shrouded in mystery. That was ALSO true of Labour in 2010 - speaking as a candidate, it was all about "stop the Tories". I think that the explosion of youth interest in Corbyn is that he's brought idealism back into fashion - the Tories will be making a mistake if they think that just addressing tuition fees will make much differemnce.
    It's frustrating.

    A dynamic conservatism *should* have appeal to the young. It should have an idealism to it. It should be continually attacking the parasitic entrenched interests that try to attach themselves to the party.

    I had a brief hope that the constitutional zero-day that is brexit - combined with TM's (I believe) genuine desire to make conservatism work for the JAMS could have given the tories the necessary - once in a generation - reboot.

    She blew it.

    The parasites are winning hands down.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,164
    Freedom of movement will end when we leave the European Union.

    In what way does that not mean Hard Brexit?
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    Pong said:



    It seems anyone who dares to have politics even marginally different from Jeremy Corbyn is considered to be a Tory by Corbynistas. To them, the words Conservative and Blairite have lost any coherent meaning. 'Tory' and 'Blairite' now simply mean 'anyone that I don't like' for Corbynistas.

    Corbynistas vary, just like any other group. I know lots, but can only think of two who correspond to your stereotype, which actually rather resembles the way they describe Tories as "all the same". With respect, PB works better when we don't generalise about each other.

    But while at present I know what Corbyn's Labour is for, while the purpose of Conservatives (to stop Corbyn and get some unspecified kind of Brexit?) and the LibDems (another referendum and...?) is largely shrouded in mystery. That was ALSO true of Labour in 2010 - speaking as a candidate, it was all about "stop the Tories". I think that the explosion of youth interest in Corbyn is that he's brought idealism back into fashion - the Tories will be making a mistake if they think that just addressing tuition fees will make much differemnce.
    It's frustrating.

    A dynamic conservatism *should* have appeal to the young. It should have an idealism to it. It should be continually attacking the parasitic entrenched interests that try to attach themselves to the party.

    I had a brief hope that the constitutional zero-day that is brexit - combined with TM's (I believe) genuine desire to make conservatism work for the JAMS could have given the tories the necessary - once in a generation - reboot.

    She blew it.
    What have the tories to offer anyone under 40 ? Ok you could claim sensible economics but that isnt going to wash anymore.
  • Bobajob_PBBobajob_PB Posts: 928

    Jesus. It's happening. Corbyn is a rock star.

    He really isn't.

    Jesus. It's happening. Corbyn is a rock star.

    He really isn't.
    Sorry to break it to you...
    If Corbyn is a rockstar, then so is Trump. After all, Trump has drawn plenty of crowds in the states and has many fanatical supporters just like Corbyn does.

    Corbyn is a marmite figure, and it may feel like he's this hugely popular guy in part because he was coming from such a low point in terms of his personal ratings.

    The last politician who was really a 'rockstar' was Barack Obama. That was a guy who actually did enjoy near universal popularity at one stage - being near-universally admired across the world in 2008. That's the kind of popularity Corbyn can only dream of.
    If there was a general election tomorrow it's quite possible Corbyn would win it by a greater margin than Obama in 2012. But who's counting?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,543
    tlg86 said:

    Hmm. Prof Bogdanor says that for Brexit to work we need to pursue unilateral economic liberalism and free trade. He then says that this contradicts the reasons why people voted for Brexit. He says people were lashing out at globalisation.

    I think that's wrong. People looked at our membership of the EU and decided that the benefits didn't outweigh the costs. Membership of the EU, in my opinion, is a barrier to economic liberalism and comes with the frankly bizarre devotion to free movement of people between member states.

    That's wrong. Brexit is possibly a Mayflower proposition (although I don't think it likely). On cost/benefit the Pilgrim Fathers would have done better to stay put, as we would be to remain in the EU. Ultimately, and allowing for national myth, that trip across the Atlantic lead to the most powerful nation the world has ever seen, unforeseeable byf any cost/benefit analysis.
  • nunununu Posts: 6,024
    Gove would have won. :(
  • Bobajob_PBBobajob_PB Posts: 928
    nichomar said:

    Pong said:



    It seems anyone who dares to have politics even marginally different from Jeremy Corbyn is considered to be a Tory by Corbynistas. To them, the words Conservative and Blairite have lost any coherent meaning. 'Tory' and 'Blairite' now simply mean 'anyone that I don't like' for Corbynistas.

    Corbynistas vary, just like any other group. I know lots, but can only think of two who correspond to your stereotype, which actually rather resembles the way they describe Tories as "all the same". With respect, PB works better when we don't generalise about each other.

    But while at present I know what Corbyn's Labour is for, while the purpose of Conservatives (to stop Corbyn and get some unspecified kind of Brexit?) and the LibDems (another referendum and...?) is largely shrouded in mystery. That was ALSO true of Labour in 2010 - speaking as a candidate, it was all about "stop the Tories". I think that the explosion of youth interest in Corbyn is that he's brought idealism back into fashion - the Tories will be making a mistake if they think that just addressing tuition fees will make much differemnce.
    It's frustrating.

    A dynamic conservatism *should* have appeal to the young. It should have an idealism to it. It should be continually attacking the parasitic entrenched interests that try to attach themselves to the party.

    I had a brief hope that the constitutional zero-day that is brexit - combined with TM's (I believe) genuine desire to make conservatism work for the JAMS could have given the tories the necessary - once in a generation - reboot.

    She blew it.
    What have the tories to offer anyone under 40 ? Ok you could claim sensible economics but that isnt going to wash anymore.
    The Tories ceded that ground the second they embraced hard Brexit.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,695
    AndyJS said:

    I'd like to thank John Curtis, Michael Thrasher, Colin Rallings, and everyone else involved with the exit polls over the last few elections for producing such accurate figures.

    +1
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830

    Jesus. It's happening. Corbyn is a rock star.

    He really isn't.

    Jesus. It's happening. Corbyn is a rock star.

    He really isn't.
    Sorry to break it to you...
    If Corbyn is a rockstar, then so is Trump. After all, Trump has drawn plenty of crowds in the states and has many fanatical supporters just like Corbyn does.

    Corbyn is a marmite figure, and it may feel like he's this hugely popular guy in part because he was coming from such a low point in terms of his personal ratings.

    The last politician who was really a 'rockstar' was Barack Obama. That was a guy who actually did enjoy near universal popularity at one stage - being near-universally admired across the world in 2008. That's the kind of popularity Corbyn can only dream of.
    If there was a general election tomorrow it's quite possible Corbyn would win it by a greater margin than Obama in 2012. But who's counting?
    .....And he'd still not win a majority, whereas Obama won a landslide in 08' and a majority in 12.'

    But my point stands. Obama in 08' was universally popular in a way Corbyn is not. And Obama has a higher popularity rate here than Corbyn and many other politicians even post 2012.

    On the measure of overall job approval, two-thirds of the British public continue to say Barack Obama is doing well, while just a fifth say he isn’t. His net approval rating of +49 is actually down slightly from +56 in June of this year and +64 at the time of his re-election in 2012, but it remains sky-high compared to UK leaders like David Cameron (-12) or Barack Obama’s own approval rating back home in America (also -12 in the latest YouGov USA poll).

    From YouGov (2014).

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/09/05/barack-obama-no-george-w-bush/
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,720
    nunu said:

    Gove would have won. :(

    Rock Star vs Cockster
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,049

    nichomar said:

    Pong said:



    It seems anyone who dares to have politics even marginally different from Jeremy Corbyn is considered to be a Tory by Corbynistas. To them, the words Conservative and Blairite have lost any coherent meaning. 'Tory' and 'Blairite' now simply mean 'anyone that I don't like' for Corbynistas.

    Corbynistas vary, just like any other group. I know lots, but can only think of two who correspond to your stereotype, which actually rather resembles the way they describe Tories as "all the same". With respect, PB works better when we don't generalise about each other.

    But while at present I know what Corbyn's Labour is for, while the purpose of Conservatives (to stop Corbyn and get some unspecified kind of Brexit?) and the LibDems (another referendum and...?) is largely shrouded in mystery. That was ALSO true of Labour in 2010 - speaking as a candidate, it was all about "stop the Tories". I think that the explosion of youth interest in Corbyn is that he's brought idealism back into fashion - the Tories will be making a mistake if they think that just addressing tuition fees will make much differemnce.
    It's frustrating.

    A dynamic conservatism *should* have appeal to the young. It should have an idealism to it. It should be continually attacking the parasitic entrenched interests that try to attach themselves to the party.

    I had a brief hope that the constitutional zero-day that is brexit - combined with TM's (I believe) genuine desire to make conservatism work for the JAMS could have given the tories the necessary - once in a generation - reboot.

    She blew it.
    What have the tories to offer anyone under 40 ? Ok you could claim sensible economics but that isnt going to wash anymore.
    The Tories ceded that ground the second they embraced hard Brexit.
    I'm pretty confident now Brexit ain't going to happen. The next few years of seeing the Tories drift and fall apart is going to be fun indeed.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,695

    Corbyn's genuis is that he has united everyone left of Blair.

    I dare say some of the softer PB Tories are tempted! Gin is wavering (although he really is a Leftie!)

    Hello? ;)
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    nunu said:

    Gove would have won. :(

    The election? You can't be serious. He's one of the most unpopular politicians in the country.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,164
    FF43 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Hmm. Prof Bogdanor says that for Brexit to work we need to pursue unilateral economic liberalism and free trade. He then says that this contradicts the reasons why people voted for Brexit. He says people were lashing out at globalisation.

    I think that's wrong. People looked at our membership of the EU and decided that the benefits didn't outweigh the costs. Membership of the EU, in my opinion, is a barrier to economic liberalism and comes with the frankly bizarre devotion to free movement of people between member states.

    That's wrong. Brexit is possibly a Mayflower proposition (although I don't think it likely). On cost/benefit the Pilgrim Fathers would have done better to stay put, as we would be to remain in the EU. Ultimately, and allowing for national myth, that trip across the Atlantic lead to the most powerful nation the world has ever seen, unforeseeable byf any cost/benefit analysis.
    That's fair enough, I'd argue that all votes are made on imperfect information but that's democracy. I wonder, for example, what would happen if every voter was forced to listen to @rcs1000 give a lecture on the state of the British economy? Other than provoking a profound and deep shock to the British economy, it might make some people reconsider their opposition to more austerity.

    Perhaps the real difficulty for Remain was that the costs of our EU membership were obvious and immediate. The benefits are harder for the everyday person to see.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    nichomar said:

    Pong said:



    It seems anyone who dares to have politics even marginally different from Jeremy Corbyn is considered to be a Tory by Corbynistas. To them, the words Conservative and Blairite have lost any coherent meaning. 'Tory' and 'Blairite' now simply mean 'anyone that I don't like' for Corbynistas.

    Corbynistas vary, just like any other group. I know lots, but can only think of two who correspond to your stereotype, which actually rather resembles the way they describe Tories as "all the same". With respect, PB works better when we don't generalise about each other.

    But while at present I know what Corbyn's Labour is for, while the purpose of Conservatives (to stop Corbyn and get some unspecified kind of Brexit?) and the LibDems (another referendum and...?) is largely shrouded in mystery. That was ALSO true of Labour in 2010 - speaking as a candidate, it was all about "stop the Tories". I think that the explosion of youth interest in Corbyn is that he's brought idealism back into fashion - the Tories will be making a mistake if they think that just addressing tuition fees will make much differemnce.
    It's frustrating.

    A dynamic conservatism *should* have appeal to the young. It should have an idealism to it. It should be continually attacking the parasitic entrenched interests that try to attach themselves to the party.

    I had a brief hope that the constitutional zero-day that is brexit - combined with TM's (I believe) genuine desire to make conservatism work for the JAMS could have given the tories the necessary - once in a generation - reboot.

    She blew it.
    What have the tories to offer anyone under 40 ? Ok you could claim sensible economics but that isnt going to wash anymore.
    The Tories ceded that ground the second they embraced hard Brexit.
    But i dont see corbyn as the answer, he could actually make things worse for those that support him but i see nothibg else on offer (for my children, not me i''m 63)
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,841
    nunu said:

    Gove would have won. :(

    Oh now we're just getting silly :p
  • Bobajob_PBBobajob_PB Posts: 928
    Miss Apocalypse

    While ever young mothers resist senior appointments on account of their caring responsibilities we will never have fair representation at the top of business and politics.
  • Bobajob_PBBobajob_PB Posts: 928
    GIN1138 said:

    Corbyn's genuis is that he has united everyone left of Blair.

    I dare say some of the softer PB Tories are tempted! Gin is wavering (although he really is a Leftie!)

    Hello? ;)
    Good evening sir!
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    Re Softer PB Tories and Corbyn, I think it may be just GIN. Even DavidL and TSE - two moderate Conservatives - aren't exactly Corbyn's biggest fans!
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,695

    GIN1138 said:

    Corbyn's genuis is that he has united everyone left of Blair.

    I dare say some of the softer PB Tories are tempted! Gin is wavering (although he really is a Leftie!)

    Hello? ;)
    Good evening sir!
    Jezza went down well at Glasto.... This might really be happening.

    You must be excited...
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    edited June 2017

    Miss Apocalypse

    While ever young mothers resist senior appointments on account of their caring responsibilities we will never have fair representation at the top of business and politics.

    I agree.

    What we really need is more of a balance between the genders in regard to childcare responsibilities (and housework also). Until we get that, it's always going be difficult for women, sadly.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,164
    Interesting. Will Straw seems quite sure that Cameron didn't do enough to get a better deal on freedom of movement. He thinks we should have been able to get something substantial.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,535
    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Corbyn's genuis is that he has united everyone left of Blair.

    I dare say some of the softer PB Tories are tempted! Gin is wavering (although he really is a Leftie!)

    Hello? ;)
    Good evening sir!
    Jezza went down well at Glasto.... This might really be happening.

    You must be excited...
    http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/la-et-ms-coachella-2016-l-coachellas-next-surprise-guest-bernie-sanders-1460852978-htmlstory.html
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    Miss Apocalypse

    While ever young mothers resist senior appointments on account of their caring responsibilities we will never have fair representation at the top of business and politics.

    I agree.

    What we really need is more of a balance between the genders in regard to childcare responsibilities (and housework also). Until we get that, it's always going be difficult for women, sadly.
    Its bloody hard work decidind what to buy, prepare and cook every day balanced against the cleaning, washing etc, i always thought i did my share but when you have to do the lot it becomes hard work. Coupled with every single decision you make and managing finances etc i understand why some women feal hard done by. At least we're not compromising careers etc but must have done along the way to which i was probably blind at the time
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    nichomar said:

    Pong said:



    It seems anyone who dares to have politics even marginally different from Jeremy Corbyn is considered to be a Tory by Corbynistas. To them, the words Conservative and Blairite have lost any coherent meaning. 'Tory' and 'Blairite' now simply mean 'anyone that I don't like' for Corbynistas.

    Corbynistas vary, just like any other group. I know lots, but can only think of two who correspond to your stereotype, which actually rather resembles the way they describe Tories as "all the same". With respect, PB works better when we don't generalise about each other.

    But while at present I know what Corbyn's Labour is for, while the purpose of Conservatives (to stop Corbyn and get some unspecified kind of Brexit?) and the LibDems (another referendum and...?) is largely shrouded in mystery. That was ALSO true of Labour in 2010 - speaking as a candidate, it was all about "stop the Tories". I think that the explosion of youth interest in Corbyn is that he's brought idealism back into fashion - the Tories will be making a mistake if they think that just addressing tuition fees will make much differemnce.
    It's frustrating.

    A dynamic conservatism *should* have appeal to the young. It should have an idealism to it. It should be continually attacking the parasitic entrenched interests that try to attach themselves to the party.

    I had a brief hope that the constitutional zero-day that is brexit - combined with TM's (I believe) genuine desire to make conservatism work for the JAMS could have given the tories the necessary - once in a generation - reboot.

    She blew it.
    What have the tories to offer anyone under 40 ? Ok you could claim sensible economics but that isnt going to wash anymore.
    Not burdening them with the liability of the trillions of debt that a Corbyn government would borrow and pass the interest burdens on to the under 40s and younger. U
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,720
    SO says Warwick & Leamington voted Remain and did not turn Labour because voters here embraced socialism and Brexit.

    PERHAPS HE SHOULD ASK HIS KIDS!!!
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,957
    I'm expecting a lot of Bishop bashing from Leavers for the next few days.

    https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/878722038772453377
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,272
    edited June 2017
    nichomar said:

    Pong said:



    It seems anyone who dares to have politics even marginally different from Jeremy Corbyn is considered to be a Tory by Corbynistas. To them, the words Conservative and Blairite have lost any coherent meaning. 'Tory' and 'Blairite' now simply mean 'anyone that I don't like' for Corbynistas.

    Corbynistas vary, just like any other group. I know lots, but can only think of two who correspond to your stereotype, which actually rather resembles the way they describe Tories as "all the same". With respect, PB works better when we don't generalise about each other.

    But while at present I know what Corbyn's Labour is for, while the purpose of Conservatives (to stop Corbyn and get some unspecified kind of Brexit?) and the LibDems (another referendum and...?) is largely shrouded in mystery. That was ALSO true of Labour in 2010 - speaking as a candidate, it was all about "stop the Tories". I think that the explosion of youth interest in Corbyn is that he's brought idealism back into fashion - the Tories will be making a mistake if they think that just addressing tuition fees will make much differemnce.
    It's frustrating.

    A dynamic conservatism *should* have appeal to the young. It should have an idealism to it. It should be continually attacking the parasitic entrenched interests that try to attach themselves to the party.

    I had a brief hope that the constitutional zero-day that is brexit - combined with TM's (I believe) genuine desire to make conservatism work for the JAMS could have given the tories the necessary - once in a generation - reboot.

    She blew it.
    What have the tories to offer anyone under 40 ? Ok you could claim sensible economics but that isnt going to wash anymore.
    Not sure if anyone else saw this - apologies if it's already been posted. Potentially significant for the tories?...

    The average @Conservative voter is getting older and older at a faster rate than the U.K population is ageing. This should concern the party pic.twitter.com/5ALnAPgym7

    — James Kanagasooriam (@JamesKanag) 22 June 2017
    imageimage
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,957
    Looks like Hammond as PM and David Davis as Mr Brexit with Mrs May ousted before conference.

    https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/878718600919613440
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,720
    I see the Mail are giving away a free Corbyn tomorrow with every paper,

    Dinosaurs
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    tyson said:

    nichomar said:

    Pong said:



    It seems anyone who dares to have politics even marginally different from Jeremy Corbyn is considered to be a Tory by Corbynistas. To them, the words Conservative and Blairite have lost any coherent meaning. 'Tory' and 'Blairite' now simply mean 'anyone that I don't like' for Corbynistas.

    Corbynistas vary, just like any other group. I know lots, but can only think of two who correspond to your stereotype, which actually rather resembles the way they describe Tories as "all the same". With respect, PB works better when we don't generalise about each other.

    But while at present I know what Corbyn's Labour is for, while the purpose of Conservatives (to stop Corbyn and get some unspecified kind of Brexit?) and the LibDems (another referendum and...?) is largely shrouded in mystery. That was ALSO true of Labour in 2010 - speaking as a candidate, it was all about "stop the Tories". I think that the explosion of youth interest in Corbyn is that he's brought idealism back into fashion - the Tories will be making a mistake if they think that just addressing tuition fees will make much differemnce.
    It's frustrating.

    A dynamic conservatism *should* have appeal to the young. It should have an idealism to it. It should be continually attacking the parasitic entrenched interests that try to attach themselves to the party.

    I had a brief hope that the constitutional zero-day that is brexit - combined with TM's (I believe) genuine desire to make conservatism work for the JAMS could have given the tories the necessary - once in a generation - reboot.

    She blew it.
    What have the tories to offer anyone under 40 ? Ok you could claim sensible economics but that isnt going to wash anymore.
    The Tories ceded that ground the second they embraced hard Brexit.
    I'm pretty confident now Brexit ain't going to happen. The next few years of seeing the Tories drift and fall apart is going to be fun indeed.
    I agree. It ain't going to happen. Just forget about it. It'll sort itself out and all go away. Relax.
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,049

    Re Softer PB Tories and Corbyn, I think it may be just GIN. Even DavidL and TSE - two moderate Conservatives - aren't exactly Corbyn's biggest fans!

    I'v e detected some Pulpstar leftwards leanings....Corbyn is quite infectious and contagious...and reaches some places people previously thought impossible
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited June 2017

    nichomar said:

    Pong said:



    It seems anyone who dares to have politics even marginally different from Jeremy Corbyn is considered to be a Tory by Corbynistas. To them, the words Conservative and Blairite have lost any coherent meaning. 'Tory' and 'Blairite' now simply mean 'anyone that I don't like' for Corbynistas.

    Corbynistas vary, just like any other group. I know lots, but can only think of two who correspond to your stereotype, which actually rather resembles the way they describe Tories as "all the same". With respect, PB works better when we don't generalise about each other.

    But while at present I know what Corbyn's Labour is for, while the purpose of Conservatives (to stop Corbyn and get some unspecified kind of Brexit?) and the LibDems (another referendum and...?) is largely shrouded in mystery. That was ALSO true of Labour in 2010 - speaking as a candidate, it was all about "stop the Tories". I think that the explosion of youth interest in Corbyn is that he's brought idealism back into fashion - the Tories will be making a mistake if they think that just addressing tuition fees will make much differemnce.
    It's frustrating.

    A dynamic conservatism *should* have appeal to the young. It should have an idealism to it. It should be continually attacking the parasitic entrenched interests that try to attach themselves to the party.

    I had a brief hope that the constitutional zero-day that is brexit - combined with TM's (I believe) genuine desire to make conservatism work for the JAMS could have given the tories the necessary - once in a generation - reboot.

    She blew it.
    What have the tories to offer anyone under 40 ? Ok you could claim sensible economics but that isnt going to wash anymore.
    Not burdening them with the liability of the trillions of debt that a Corbyn government would borrow and pass the interest burdens on to the under 40s and younger. U
    The economic burden of austerity - since the financial crisis - has been focussed on the working age population, with the youngest hit the hardest from all angles.

    Young people - loan-burdened graduates or not - are competing for careerless uber-jobs, knowing that only their friends with the wealthiest parents and grandparents - those who enjoyed great pensions, no tuition fees and benefited from a huge rise in house prices - will have the chance to make a decent life of their own. That fuels the resentment that toxifies conservatism.

    It's been austerity for you, prosperity for them.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,957
    tyson said:

    Re Softer PB Tories and Corbyn, I think it may be just GIN. Even DavidL and TSE - two moderate Conservatives - aren't exactly Corbyn's biggest fans!

    I'v e detected some Pulpstar leftwards leanings....Corbyn is quite infectious and contagious...and reaches some places people previously thought impossible
    Corbyn is like an STD.

    I shall do a thread on such a comparison towards the end of next week.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    tyson said:

    Re Softer PB Tories and Corbyn, I think it may be just GIN. Even DavidL and TSE - two moderate Conservatives - aren't exactly Corbyn's biggest fans!

    I'v e detected some Pulpstar leftwards leanings....Corbyn is quite infectious and contagious...and reaches some places people previously thought impossible
    Yes, it's a shame. Pulpstar used to be very sensible but has slipped over the last few years.

    I have a vague memory that his girlfriend is more lefty than he is (?) and that's probably more of an influence than Corbyn. Apologies to Pulpstar if I've misremembered.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,001

    I'm expecting a lot of Bishop bashing from Leavers for the next few days.

    https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/878722038772453377

    Seems sensible to me
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,720

    tyson said:

    Re Softer PB Tories and Corbyn, I think it may be just GIN. Even DavidL and TSE - two moderate Conservatives - aren't exactly Corbyn's biggest fans!

    I'v e detected some Pulpstar leftwards leanings....Corbyn is quite infectious and contagious...and reaches some places people previously thought impossible
    Corbyn is like an STD.

    I shall do a thread on such a comparison towards the end of next week.
    Corbyn even got TSE to vote tactically against Clegg to elect a Corbynite Labour MP
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830

    I'm expecting a lot of Bishop bashing from Leavers for the next few days.

    https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/878722038772453377

    So even God and Jesus wants cross-party talks on Brexit.

    @tyson LOL....I thought he was always an LD, although he may have been an Orange Booker. My mum was agreeing with Corbyn's views re empty properties and she voted Tory at the last GE.

  • glwglw Posts: 9,535
    edited June 2017
    Pong said:

    The economic burden of austerity - since the financial crisis - has been focussed on the working age population, with the youngest hit the hardest from all angles.

    Young people - loan-burdened graduates or not - are competing for careerless uber-jobs, knowing that only their friends with the wealthiest parents - those who enjoyed great pensions, no tuition fees and benefited from a huge rise in house prices - will have the chance to make a decent life of their own fuels the very resentment that toxifies conservatism.

    It's been austerity for you, prosperity for them.

    True, but let's not pretend that this generation has it particularly tough, post WW1 and post WW2 were vastly more difficult times, and the 70s was no treat either. Some sense of perspective would be useful, the UK and 2017 are still amongst the best places and times to ever live.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,272

    tyson said:

    Re Softer PB Tories and Corbyn, I think it may be just GIN. Even DavidL and TSE - two moderate Conservatives - aren't exactly Corbyn's biggest fans!

    I'v e detected some Pulpstar leftwards leanings....Corbyn is quite infectious and contagious...and reaches some places people previously thought impossible
    Corbyn is like an STD.

    I shall do a thread on such a comparison towards the end of next week.
    So we're gonorrhea from you soon on that one are we?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,957

    I'm expecting a lot of Bishop bashing from Leavers for the next few days.

    https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/878722038772453377

    Seems sensible to me
    Nah, we're not a theocracy like Iran*, if the Bishop of Canterbury wants to influence political opinions in this country, he should stand for election.

    *Actually I believe the UK and Iran are the only two countries in the world that have members of their clergy automatically in their legislatures.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    If you want all of the real blackmail detail on MPs then their Inboxes aren't the place to look.

    Just kidnap the Chief Whip and make him talk.

    https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/878718600919613440


  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,957

    tyson said:

    Re Softer PB Tories and Corbyn, I think it may be just GIN. Even DavidL and TSE - two moderate Conservatives - aren't exactly Corbyn's biggest fans!

    I'v e detected some Pulpstar leftwards leanings....Corbyn is quite infectious and contagious...and reaches some places people previously thought impossible
    Corbyn is like an STD.

    I shall do a thread on such a comparison towards the end of next week.
    Corbyn even got TSE to vote tactically against Clegg to elect a Corbynite Labour MP
    I voted Lib Dem in Sheffield Hallam this time.

    Did a vote swap with a Lib Dem in North East Derbyshire, which helped elect a Tory MP.
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited June 2017
    GeoffM said:

    tyson said:

    Re Softer PB Tories and Corbyn, I think it may be just GIN. Even DavidL and TSE - two moderate Conservatives - aren't exactly Corbyn's biggest fans!

    I'v e detected some Pulpstar leftwards leanings....Corbyn is quite infectious and contagious...and reaches some places people previously thought impossible
    Yes, it's a shame. Pulpstar used to be very sensible but has slipped over the last few years.

    I have a vague memory that his girlfriend is more lefty than he is (?) and that's probably more of an influence than Corbyn. Apologies to Pulpstar if I've misremembered.
    Says one of the *very sensible* PBtories who paid £3 to elect Corbyn.

    lolz.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited June 2017
    GeoffM said:

    If you want all of the real blackmail detail on MPs then their Inboxes aren't the place to look.

    Just kidnap the Chief Whip and make him talk.

    https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/878718600919613440


    Appropriately enough, the chief whip Gavin Williamson almost got 70% of the vote in his constituency on June 8th.

    I always think he looks a bit like a cross between AA Gill and Jonathan Agnew.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gavin_Williamson
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/politics/constituencies/E14000945
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    I'm expecting a lot of Bishop bashing from Leavers for the next few days.

    https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/878722038772453377

    He's an irrelevance. Why bother.
    There was a druid one recently as well, I think?
    Is he dead?
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,049

    tyson said:

    Re Softer PB Tories and Corbyn, I think it may be just GIN. Even DavidL and TSE - two moderate Conservatives - aren't exactly Corbyn's biggest fans!

    I'v e detected some Pulpstar leftwards leanings....Corbyn is quite infectious and contagious...and reaches some places people previously thought impossible
    Corbyn is like an STD.

    I shall do a thread on such a comparison towards the end of next week.
    I'm sure you have something there in a perverse way....

    Seriously, I was with friends today and it was quite wonderful thinking that we are probably as far away from a Tory majority Govt as I have been in my lifetime.....the Tories have a long way to fall, yet and their trajectory is now relentlessly downwards...yes!!!!
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    edited June 2017
    I'm laughing at the replies to that Sky News tweet re Justin Welby and Brexit :lol: Brexiteers in shambles
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,957
    tyson said:

    tyson said:

    Re Softer PB Tories and Corbyn, I think it may be just GIN. Even DavidL and TSE - two moderate Conservatives - aren't exactly Corbyn's biggest fans!

    I'v e detected some Pulpstar leftwards leanings....Corbyn is quite infectious and contagious...and reaches some places people previously thought impossible
    Corbyn is like an STD.

    I shall do a thread on such a comparison towards the end of next week.
    I'm sure you have something there in a perverse way....

    Seriously, I was with friends today and it was quite wonderful thinking that we are probably as far away from a Tory majority Govt as I have been in my lifetime.....the Tories have a long way to fall, yet and their trajectory is now relentlessly downwards...yes!!!!
    Well I hope you're wrong, but I fear you're right.

    Thanks Theresa and the Leavers
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,720

    tyson said:

    Re Softer PB Tories and Corbyn, I think it may be just GIN. Even DavidL and TSE - two moderate Conservatives - aren't exactly Corbyn's biggest fans!

    I'v e detected some Pulpstar leftwards leanings....Corbyn is quite infectious and contagious...and reaches some places people previously thought impossible
    Corbyn is like an STD.

    I shall do a thread on such a comparison towards the end of next week.
    Corbyn even got TSE to vote tactically against Clegg to elect a Corbynite Labour MP
    I voted Lib Dem in Sheffield Hallam this time.

    Did a vote swap with a Lib Dem in North East Derbyshire, which helped elect a Tory MP.
    Boo.

    Mind you TBF Pro Fracking Pro Green Belt building Engel was the person that made NE Derbyshire go Tory.

    Apperently she has said at todays CLP in NE Derbyshire she wants to stand again


    I doubt she will I reckon disabled Corbynite Dean Collins will be the next MP after Lee Rowley unless its an All Woman Shortlist!!
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,049

    I'm laughing at the replies to that Sky News tweet re Justin Welby and Brexit :lol: Brexiteers in shambles

    I'll give you a year tops Apocalypse before you join the Jezebellah tribe....you'll be a welcome addition.

    Good night all....
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    tyson said:

    Re Softer PB Tories and Corbyn, I think it may be just GIN. Even DavidL and TSE - two moderate Conservatives - aren't exactly Corbyn's biggest fans!

    I'v e detected some Pulpstar leftwards leanings....Corbyn is quite infectious and contagious...and reaches some places people previously thought impossible
    Corbyn is like an STD.

    I shall do a thread on such a comparison towards the end of next week.
    So we're gonorrhea from you soon on that one are we?
    I have often pondered the similarities between Trump and our own Jezza. Having just watched The Wizard of Lies (a good, if not comfortable, watch), I am now even more struck by "qualities" Jezza shares with Madoff, although Jezza will unfortunately never have to serve 150 years if he ever gets the chance to implement his Madoff-like financial management techniques.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,720

    tyson said:

    Re Softer PB Tories and Corbyn, I think it may be just GIN. Even DavidL and TSE - two moderate Conservatives - aren't exactly Corbyn's biggest fans!

    I'v e detected some Pulpstar leftwards leanings....Corbyn is quite infectious and contagious...and reaches some places people previously thought impossible
    Corbyn is like an STD.

    I shall do a thread on such a comparison towards the end of next week.
    Corbyn even got TSE to vote tactically against Clegg to elect a Corbynite Labour MP
    I voted Lib Dem in Sheffield Hallam this time.

    Did a vote swap with a Lib Dem in North East Derbyshire, which helped elect a Tory MP.
    Vote swap with Pulpstar
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,957

    tyson said:

    Re Softer PB Tories and Corbyn, I think it may be just GIN. Even DavidL and TSE - two moderate Conservatives - aren't exactly Corbyn's biggest fans!

    I'v e detected some Pulpstar leftwards leanings....Corbyn is quite infectious and contagious...and reaches some places people previously thought impossible
    Corbyn is like an STD.

    I shall do a thread on such a comparison towards the end of next week.
    Corbyn even got TSE to vote tactically against Clegg to elect a Corbynite Labour MP
    I voted Lib Dem in Sheffield Hallam this time.

    Did a vote swap with a Lib Dem in North East Derbyshire, which helped elect a Tory MP.
    Vote swap with Pulpstar
    I voted the way the Daily Mail wanted all Tories in Hallam to do so, which made me doubt my decision.

    Lucky for Clegg I cast my postal vote a fortnight before the Mail endorsement.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,835
    Corbyn is an idealist. People like that.We haven't had any on the Left since at least John Smith's time. No-one under 40 has heard it in their adult life. How things COULD be.
    I want a world where kids can write poems, paint pictures, and play music. Who doesn't want that?
    It is the same impulse Tories get misty-eyed over Maggie for.
    He's got the perfect result for him. Power without responsibility. The power to criticise from a position of relative strength, without the responsibility of having to make difficult but unpopular decisions.
  • Bobajob_PBBobajob_PB Posts: 928
    GeoffM said:

    tyson said:

    Re Softer PB Tories and Corbyn, I think it may be just GIN. Even DavidL and TSE - two moderate Conservatives - aren't exactly Corbyn's biggest fans!

    I'v e detected some Pulpstar leftwards leanings....Corbyn is quite infectious and contagious...and reaches some places people previously thought impossible
    I have a vague memory that his girlfriend is more lefty than he is (?)
    This seems to be a recurring theme, on PB. Sean, TSE, Pulpstar - tbh my wife is also a Corbynista
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Vote share changes in Sheffield Hallam:

    Lab +2.6%
    LD -5.4%
    Con +10.2%
  • glwglw Posts: 9,535
    edited June 2017

    I have often pondered the similarities between Trump and our own Jezza. Having just watched The Wizard of Lies (a good, if not comfortable, watch), I am now even more struck by "qualities" Jezza shares with Madoff, although Jezza will unfortunately never have to serve 150 years if he ever gets the chance to implement his Madoff-like financial management techniques.

    Like with Ponzi, Madoff, and Trump, and now Corbyn as well, people want to believe that the too good to be true is true. Deep down an awful lot of Labour people are lying to themselves, because it feels good to have a "winning" team again, but they know it's all a load of bollocks.

    It's a bit like Trump telling his supporters about the great new super best-ever healthcare plans, so great, so much better than Obamacare, those plans will see millions of his supporters lose their health insurance. They want to believe too, but sooner or later they are going to realise he has screwed them.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 3,911
    Pong said:

    nichomar said:

    Pong said:



    Corbynistas vary, just like any other group. I know lots, but can only think of two who correspond to your stereotype, which actually rather resembles the way they describe Tories as "all the same". With respect, PB works better when we don't generalise about each other.

    But while at present I know what Corbyn's Labour is for, while the purpose of Conservatives (to stop Corbyn and get some unspecified kind of Brexit?) and the LibDems (another referendum and...?) is largely shrouded in mystery. That was ALSO true of Labour in 2010 - speaking as a candidate, it was all about "stop the Tories". I think that the explosion of youth interest in Corbyn is that he's brought idealism back into fashion - the Tories will be making a mistake if they think that just addressing tuition fees will make much differemnce.

    It's frustrating.

    A dynamic conservatism *should* have appeal to the young. It should have an idealism to it. It should be continually attacking the parasitic entrenched interests that try to attach themselves to the party.

    I had a brief hope that the constitutional zero-day that is brexit - combined with TM's (I believe) genuine desire to make conservatism work for the JAMS could have given the tories the necessary - once in a generation - reboot.

    She blew it.
    What have the tories to offer anyone under 40 ? Ok you could claim sensible economics but that isnt going to wash anymore.
    Not burdening them with the liability of the trillions of debt that a Corbyn government would borrow and pass the interest burdens on to the under 40s and younger. U
    The economic burden of austerity - since the financial crisis - has been focussed on the working age population, with the youngest hit the hardest from all angles.

    Young people - loan-burdened graduates or not - are competing for careerless uber-jobs, knowing that only their friends with the wealthiest parents and grandparents - those who enjoyed great pensions, no tuition fees and benefited from a huge rise in house prices - will have the chance to make a decent life of their own. That fuels the resentment that toxifies conservatism.

    It's been austerity for you, prosperity for them.
    Nail on head.

    That's why this was one of the best attack ads of the campaign.

    https://www.facebook.com/PeoplesMomentum/videos/457075104637882/

    Sums up the enormous divide between the haves and the have nots in our society in 2017.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,835
    glw said:

    I have often pondered the similarities between Trump and our own Jezza. Having just watched The Wizard of Lies (a good, if not comfortable, watch), I am now even more struck by "qualities" Jezza shares with Madoff, although Jezza will unfortunately never have to serve 150 years if he ever gets the chance to implement his Madoff-like financial management techniques.

    Like with Ponzi, Madoff, and Trump, and now Corbyn as well, people want to believe that the too good to be true is true. Deep down an awful lot of Labour people are lying to themselves, because it feels good to have a "winning" team again, but they know it's all a load of bollocks.

    It's a bit like Trump telling his supporters about the great new super best-ever healthcare plans, so great, so much better than Obamacare, those plans will see millions of his supporters lose their health insurance. They want to believe too, but sooner or later they are going to realise he has screwed them.
    Yes, but Corbyn didn't win. So, it can continue...
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,910

    tyson said:

    Re Softer PB Tories and Corbyn, I think it may be just GIN. Even DavidL and TSE - two moderate Conservatives - aren't exactly Corbyn's biggest fans!

    I'v e detected some Pulpstar leftwards leanings....Corbyn is quite infectious and contagious...and reaches some places people previously thought impossible
    Corbyn is like an STD.

    I shall do a thread on such a comparison towards the end of next week.
    Corbyn even got TSE to vote tactically against Clegg to elect a Corbynite Labour MP
    I voted Lib Dem in Sheffield Hallam this time.

    Did a vote swap with a Lib Dem in North East Derbyshire, which helped elect a Tory MP.
    TSE = TPD!
  • ParistondaParistonda Posts: 1,819
    glw said:

    You can't run a country like that though. Even if we were to get a Corbyn government, the public is unlikely to agree with everything Corbyn says.

    I'm 99% certain that most Labour voters have no bloody idea what Corbyn and McDonnell really stand for, they just heard the "free stuff" at election time and went for it. They could do with a lot wider and deeper scrutiny as some of the things they are for are properly mad.
    I'm 99% certain that most Leave voters have no bloody idea what leaving the EU really means, they just heard the "free stuff" at referendum time and went for it.

    I don't actually think that, but I don't see why it is acceptable to patronise one group of voters but not another?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,720

    GeoffM said:

    tyson said:

    Re Softer PB Tories and Corbyn, I think it may be just GIN. Even DavidL and TSE - two moderate Conservatives - aren't exactly Corbyn's biggest fans!

    I'v e detected some Pulpstar leftwards leanings....Corbyn is quite infectious and contagious...and reaches some places people previously thought impossible
    I have a vague memory that his girlfriend is more lefty than he is (?)
    This seems to be a recurring theme, on PB. Sean, TSE, Pulpstar - tbh my wife is also a Corbynista
    So is mine!!!
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,957
    edited June 2017

    glw said:

    You can't run a country like that though. Even if we were to get a Corbyn government, the public is unlikely to agree with everything Corbyn says.

    I'm 99% certain that most Labour voters have no bloody idea what Corbyn and McDonnell really stand for, they just heard the "free stuff" at election time and went for it. They could do with a lot wider and deeper scrutiny as some of the things they are for are properly mad.
    I'm 99% certain that most Leave voters have no bloody idea what leaving the EU really means, they just heard the "free stuff" at referendum time and went for it.

    I don't actually think that, but I don't see why it is acceptable to patronise one group of voters but not another?
    I keep on telling people that Brexit and Corbynism are two cheeks of the same arse.
  • ParistondaParistonda Posts: 1,819
    tlg86 said:

    Freedom of movement will end when we leave the European Union.

    In what way does that not mean Hard Brexit?

    It could be a hard brexit in name only if we end up with something like the swiss model (not seeming likely right now but hardly off the table entirely).

    the official EU FoM ends, but say we implement a new 'green card' system valid for those born in the EU who have say GBP 2000 in funds, to come and live here. In return we get a bunch of deals that resemble the EEA even if we are not official members.
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited June 2017

    nichomar said:

    Pong said:



    It seems anyone who dares to have politics even marginally different from Jeremy Corbyn is considered to be a Tory by Corbynistas. To them, the words Conservative and Blairite have lost any coherent meaning. 'Tory' and 'Blairite' now simply mean 'anyone that I don't like' for Corbynistas.

    Corbynistas vary, just like any other group. I know lots, but can only think of two who correspond to your stereotype, which actually rather resembles the way they describe Tories as "all the same". With respect, PB works better when we don't generalise about each other.

    But while at present I know what Corbyn's Labour is for, while the purpose of Conservatives (to stop Corbyn and get some unspecified kind of Brexit?) and the LibDems (another referendum and...?) is largely shrouded in mystery. That was ALSO true of Labour in 2010 - speaking as a candidate, it was all about "stop the Tories". I think that the explosion of youth interest in Corbyn is that he's brought idealism back into fashion - the Tories will be making a mistake if they think that just addressing tuition fees will make much differemnce.
    It's frustrating.

    A dynamic conservatism *should* have appeal to the young. It should have an idealism to it. It should be continually attacking the parasitic entrenched interests that try to attach themselves to the party.

    I had a brief hope that the constitutional zero-day that is brexit - combined with TM's (I believe) genuine desire to make conservatism work for the JAMS could have given the tories the necessary - once in a generation - reboot.

    She blew it.
    What have the tories to offer anyone under 40 ? Ok you could claim sensible economics but that isnt going to wash anymore.
    Not burdening them with the liability of the trillions of debt that a Corbyn government would borrow and pass the interest burdens on to the under 40s and younger. U
    The thing is the national debt is dwarfed by the real terms increase in house prices/housing costs - which, since the mid 70's, has transferred a pile of the nations wealth from non-property owners - and future property owners - to existing property owners.

    The more property you owned, the wealthier you became.

    The costs of the national debt are shared by everyone - the costs of the politically engineered house price boom have been piled onto the propertyless - the young and the poor.

    Pumping up real property prices has become the whole point of the conservative party since thatcher. New labour are despised by the left because they bought into this scam.

    If you don't own property - or are on a low rung of the property ladder - it's in your interests to vote corbyn.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,957

    tyson said:

    Re Softer PB Tories and Corbyn, I think it may be just GIN. Even DavidL and TSE - two moderate Conservatives - aren't exactly Corbyn's biggest fans!

    I'v e detected some Pulpstar leftwards leanings....Corbyn is quite infectious and contagious...and reaches some places people previously thought impossible
    Corbyn is like an STD.

    I shall do a thread on such a comparison towards the end of next week.
    So we're gonorrhea from you soon on that one are we?
    *clap*
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Pong said:

    nichomar said:

    Pong said:



    It seems anyone who dares to have politics even marginally different from Jeremy Corbyn is considered to be a Tory by Corbynistas. To them, the words Conservative and Blairite have lost any coherent meaning. 'Tory' and 'Blairite' now simply mean 'anyone that I don't like' for Corbynistas.

    Corbynistas vary, just like any other group. I know lots, but can only think of two who correspond to your stereotype, which actually rather resembles the way they describe Tories as "all the same". With respect, PB works better when we don't generalise about each other.

    But while at present I know what Corbyn's Labour is for, while the purpose of Conservatives (to stop Corbyn and get some unspecified kind of Brexit?) and the LibDems (another referendum and...?) is largely shrouded in mystery. That was ALSO true of Labour in 2010 - speaking as a candidate, it was all about "stop the Tories". I think that the explosion of youth interest in Corbyn is that he's brought idealism back into fashion - the Tories will be making a mistake if they think that just addressing tuition fees will make much differemnce.
    It's frustrating.

    A dynamic conservatism *should* have appeal to the young. It should have an idealism to it. It should be continually attacking the parasitic entrenched interests that try to attach themselves to the party.

    I had a brief hope that the constitutional zero-day that is brexit - combined with TM's (I believe) genuine desire to make conservatism work for the JAMS could have given the tories the necessary - once in a generation - reboot.

    She blew it.
    What have the tories to offer anyone under 40 ? Ok you could claim sensible economics but that isnt going to wash anymore.
    Not burdening them with the liability of the trillions of debt that a Corbyn government would borrow and pass the interest burdens on to the under 40s and younger. U
    The economic burden of austerity - since the financial crisis - has been focussed on the working age population, with the youngest hit the hardest from all angles.

    Young people - loan-burdened graduates or not - are competing for careerless uber-jobs, knowing that only their friends with the wealthiest parents and grandparents - those who enjoyed great pensions, no tuition fees and benefited from a huge rise in house prices - will have the chance to make a decent life of their own. That fuels the resentment that toxifies conservatism.

    It's been austerity for you, prosperity for them.
    Austerity for you, prosperity for them.

    Great slogan, because it rings very true.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,535

    glw said:

    You can't run a country like that though. Even if we were to get a Corbyn government, the public is unlikely to agree with everything Corbyn says.

    I'm 99% certain that most Labour voters have no bloody idea what Corbyn and McDonnell really stand for, they just heard the "free stuff" at election time and went for it. They could do with a lot wider and deeper scrutiny as some of the things they are for are properly mad.
    I'm 99% certain that most Leave voters have no bloody idea what leaving the EU really means, they just heard the "free stuff" at referendum time and went for it.

    I don't actually think that, but I don't see why it is acceptable to patronise one group of voters but not another?
    I'm 99% certain that most Leave voters have no idea what leaving the EU really means, and 99% certain that most Remain voters have no idea what remaining entailed in the long term. That's the norm for most elections and votes. It's not patronising, it is simply true that most people vote with incomplete and erroneous knowledge about almost anything you can think of. We are a democracy not a technocracy, we vote at least as much due to how we feel than what we know about an issue.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,535
    edited June 2017

    glw said:

    You can't run a country like that though. Even if we were to get a Corbyn government, the public is unlikely to agree with everything Corbyn says.

    I'm 99% certain that most Labour voters have no bloody idea what Corbyn and McDonnell really stand for, they just heard the "free stuff" at election time and went for it. They could do with a lot wider and deeper scrutiny as some of the things they are for are properly mad.
    I'm 99% certain that most Leave voters have no bloody idea what leaving the EU really means, they just heard the "free stuff" at referendum time and went for it.

    I don't actually think that, but I don't see why it is acceptable to patronise one group of voters but not another?
    I keep on telling people that Brexit and Corbynism are two cheeks of the same arse.
    Two arses at least, Macron and Trump are also part of the same multi-arsed beast.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Pong said:

    nichomar said:

    Pong said:



    It seems anyone who dares to have politics even marginally different from Jeremy Corbyn is considered to be a Tory by Corbynistas. To them, the words Conservative and Blairite have lost any coherent meaning. 'Tory' and 'Blairite' now simply mean 'anyone that I don't like' for Corbynistas.

    Corbynistas vary, just like any other group. I know
    It's frustrating.

    A dynamic conservatism *should* have appeal to the young. It should have an idealism to it. It should be continually attacking the parasitic entrenched interests that try to attach themselves to the party.

    I had a brief hope that the constitutional zero-day that is brexit - combined with TM's (I believe) genuine desire to make conservatism work for the JAMS could have given the tories the necessary - once in a generation - reboot.

    She blew it.
    What have the tories to offer anyone under 40 ? Ok you could claim sensible economics but that isnt going to wash anymore.
    Not burdening them with the liability of the trillions of debt that a Corbyn government would borrow and pass the interest burdens on to the under 40s and younger. U
    The thing is the national debt is dwarfed by the real terms increase in house prices/housing costs - which, since the mid 70's, has transferred a pile of the nations wealth from non-property owners - and future property owners - to existing property owners.

    The more property you owned, the wealthier you became.

    The costs of the national debt are shared by everyone - the costs of the politically engineered house price boom have been piled onto the propertyless - the young and the poor.

    Pumping up real property prices has become the whole point of the conservative party since thatcher. New labour are despised by the left because they bought into this scam.

    If you don't own property - or are on a low rung of the property ladder - it's in your interests to vote corbyn.
    The Tories problem is that they can only make the young become property owners by masshousing building*, and reducing house prices. This either requires a period of high inflation, with high interest rates, and either negative equity for their voters or reduced potential inheritance.

    *house building is likely to require building on greenfield sites and also importing migrant labour, annoying 2 further strands of Tory voting.

    Corbyn's Labour will get at least 2 terms.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 3,911
    Pong said:

    nichomar said:

    Pong said:



    It's frustrating.

    A dynamic conservatism *should* have appeal to the young. It should have an idealism to it. It should be continually attacking the parasitic entrenched interests that try to attach themselves to the party.

    I had a brief hope that the constitutional zero-day that is brexit - combined with TM's (I believe) genuine desire to make conservatism work for the JAMS could have given the tories the necessary - once in a generation - reboot.

    She blew it.

    What have the tories to offer anyone under 40 ? Ok you could claim sensible economics but that isnt going to wash anymore.
    Not burdening them with the liability of the trillions of debt that a Corbyn government would borrow and pass the interest burdens on to the under 40s and younger. U
    The thing is the national debt is dwarfed by the real terms increase in house prices/housing costs - which, since the mid 70's, has transferred a pile of the nations wealth from non-property owners - and future property owners - to existing property owners.

    The more property you owned, the wealthier you became.

    The costs of the national debt are shared by everyone - the costs of the politically engineered house price boom have been piled onto the propertyless - the young and the poor.

    Pumping up real property prices has become the whole point of the conservative party since thatcher. New labour are despised by the left because they bought into this scam.

    If you don't own property - or are on a low rung of the property ladder - it's in your interests to vote corbyn.
    How is the distinct possibility of negative equity in the interests of any property owner?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,786
    kyf_100 said:

    Pong said:

    nichomar said:

    Pong said:



    It's frustrating.

    A dynamic conservatism *should* have appeal to the young. It should have an idealism to it. It should be continually attacking the parasitic entrenched interests that try to attach themselves to the party.

    I had a brief hope that the constitutional zero-day that is brexit - combined with TM's (I believe) genuine desire to make conservatism work for the JAMS could have given the tories the necessary - once in a generation - reboot.

    She blew it.

    What have the tories to offer anyone under 40 ? Ok you could claim sensible economics but that isnt going to wash anymore.
    Not burdening them with the liability of the trillions of debt that a Corbyn government would borrow and pass the interest burdens on to the under 40s and younger. U
    The thing is the national debt is dwarfed by the real terms increase in house prices/housing costs - which, since the mid 70's, has transferred a pile of the nations wealth from non-property owners - and future property owners - to existing property owners.

    The more property you owned, the wealthier you became.

    The costs of the national debt are shared by everyone - the costs of the politically engineered house price boom have been piled onto the propertyless - the young and the poor.

    Pumping up real property prices has become the whole point of the conservative party since thatcher. New labour are despised by the left because they bought into this scam.

    If you don't own property - or are on a low rung of the property ladder - it's in your interests to vote corbyn.
    How is the distinct possibility of negative equity in the interests of any property owner?
    If you intend to trade up then as long as you can afford the mortgage, you're always better off with lower prices, even if it means you are underwater on your current property. Lower prices mean the rungs of the ladder are closer together.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    kyf_100 said:

    Pong said:

    nichomar said:

    Pong said:



    It's frustrating.

    A dynamic conservatism *should* have appeal to the young. It should have an idealism to it. It should be continually attacking the parasitic entrenched interests that try to attach themselves to the party.

    I had a brief hope that the constitutional zero-day that is brexit - combined with TM's (I believe) genuine desire to make conservatism work for the JAMS could have given the tories the necessary - once in a generation - reboot.

    She blew it.

    What have the tories to offer anyone under 40 ? Ok you could claim sensible economics but that isnt going to wash anymore.
    Not burdening them with the liability of the trillions of debt that a Corbyn government would borrow and pass the interest burdens on to the under 40s and younger. U
    The thing is the national debt is dwarfed by the real terms increase in house prices/housing costs - which, since the mid 70's, has transferred a pile of the nations wealth from non-property owners - and future property owners - to existing property owners.

    The more property you owned, the wealthier you became.

    The costs of the national debt are shared by everyone - the costs of the politically engineered house price boom have been piled onto the propertyless - the young and the poor.

    Pumping up real property prices has become the whole point of the conservative party since thatcher. New labour are despised by the left because they bought into this scam.

    If you don't own property - or are on a low rung of the property ladder - it's in your interests to vote corbyn.
    How is the distinct possibility of negative equity in the interests of any property owner?
    If you intend to trade up then as long as you can afford the mortgage, you're always better off with lower prices, even if it means you are underwater on your current property. Lower prices mean the rungs of the ladder are closer together.
    I remember buying my first house in 92, after a couple of years of negative equity and uncertainty whether there would be more.

    12% interest rates were a problem, but even bigger problems were that valuations were low, and banks were very unwilling to offer mortgages of more than 80%. The deposit was unaffordable even for a junior doctor with good prospects. It was a real struggle to find the deposit.

    I bought a 2 bed terrace in a fashionable street of Leicester, for £42 000, but it was the limit of affordibility.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,281
    Not sure if already posted:

    PANELBASE POLL FOR SUNDAY TIMES:

    Lab 46
    Con 41

    Approval ratings:

    Corbyn +17
    May -17

    Sample size: 5,000
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,720
    MikeL said:

    Not sure if already posted:

    PANELBASE POLL FOR SUNDAY TIMES:

    Lab 46
    Con 41

    Approval ratings:

    Corbyn +17
    May -17

    Sample size: 5,000

    Oh dear
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,720
    MikeL said:

    Not sure if already posted:

    PANELBASE POLL FOR SUNDAY TIMES:

    Lab 46
    Con 41

    Approval ratings:

    Corbyn +17
    May -17

    Sample size: 5,000

    Oh dear
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693

    Pong said:

    nichomar said:

    Pong said:



    It seems anyone who dares to have politics even marginally different from Jeremy Corbyn is considered to be a Tory by Corbynistas. To them, the words Conservative and Blairite have lost any coherent meaning. 'Tory' and 'Blairite' now simply mean 'anyone that I don't like' for Corbynistas.

    Corbynistas vary, just like any other group. I know
    It's frustrating.

    A dynamic conservatism *should* have appeal to the young. It should have an idealism to it. It should be continually attacking the parasitic entrenched interests that try to attach themselves to the party.

    I had a brief hope that the constitutional zero-day that is brexit - combined with TM's (I believe) genuine desire to make conservatism work for the JAMS could have given the tories the necessary - once in a generation - reboot.

    She blew it.
    What have the tories to offer anyone under 40 ? Ok you could claim sensible economics but that isnt going to wash anymore.
    Not burdening them with the liability of the trillions of debt that a Corbyn government would borrow and pass the interest burdens on to the under 40s and younger. U
    The thing is the national debt is dwarfed by the real terms increase in house prices/housing costs - which, since the mid 70's, has transferred a pile of the nations wealth from non-property owners - and future property owners - to existing property owners.

    The more property you owned, the wealthier you became.

    The costs of the national debt are shared by everyone - the costs of the politically engineered house price boom have been piled onto the propertyless - the young and the poor.

    Pumping up real property prices has become the whole point of the conservative party since thatcher. New labour are despised by the left because they bought into this scam.

    If you don't own property - or are on a low rung of the property ladder - it's in your interests to vote corbyn.
    The Tories problem is that they can only make the young become property owners by masshousing building*, and reducing house prices. This either requires a period of high inflation, with high interest rates, and either negative equity for their voters or reduced potential inheritance.

    *house building is likely to require building on greenfield sites and also importing migrant labour, annoying 2 further strands of Tory voting.

    Corbyn's Labour will get at least 2 terms.
    It's a massive problem for them, electorally.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    MikeL said:

    Not sure if already posted:

    PANELBASE POLL FOR SUNDAY TIMES:

    Lab 46
    Con 41

    Approval ratings:

    Corbyn +17
    May -17

    Sample size: 5,000

    Oh dear
    Not quite good enough by Electoral calculus. Lab 59 gains, but short of a majority.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Pong said:

    Pong said:

    nichomar said:

    Pong said:



    It seems anyone who dares to have politics even marginally different from Jeremy Corbyn is considered to be a Tory by Corbynistas. To them, the words Conservative and Blairite have lost any coherent meaning. 'Tory' and 'Blairite' now simply mean 'anyone that I don't like' for Corbynistas.

    Corbynistas vary, just like any other group. I know
    It's frustrating.



    She blew it.
    What have the tories to offer anyone under 40 ? Ok you could claim sensible economics but that isnt going to wash anymore.
    Not burdening them with the liability of the trillions of debt that a Corbyn government would borrow and pass the interest burdens on to the under 40s and younger. U
    The thing is the national debt is dwarfed by the real terms increase in house prices/housing costs - which, since the mid 70's, has transferred a pile of the nations wealth from non-property owners - and future property owners - to existing property owners.

    The more property you owned, the wealthier you became.

    The costs of the national debt are shared by everyone - the costs of the politically engineered house price boom have been piled onto the propertyless - the young and the poor.

    Pumping up real property prices has become the whole point of the conservative party since thatcher. New labour are despised by the left because they bought into this scam.

    If you don't own property - or are on a low rung of the property ladder - it's in your interests to vote corbyn.
    The Tories problem is that they can only make the young become property owners by masshousing building*, and reducing house prices. This either requires a period of high inflation, with high interest rates, and either negative equity for their voters or reduced potential inheritance.

    *house building is likely to require building on greenfield sites and also importing migrant labour, annoying 2 further strands of Tory voting.

    Corbyn's Labour will get at least 2 terms.
    It's a massive problem for them, electorally.
    They have to redistribute money to potential voters from existing Tory voters. Something that Corbyn can sell better than any Tory.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,786

    Pong said:

    Pong said:

    nichomar said:

    Pong said:



    It seems anyone who dares to have politics even marginally different from Jeremy Corbyn is considered to be a Tory by Corbynistas. To them, the words Conservative and Blairite have lost any coherent meaning. 'Tory' and 'Blairite' now simply mean 'anyone that I don't like' for Corbynistas.

    Corbynistas vary, just like any other group. I know
    It's frustrating.



    She blew it.
    What have the tories to offer anyone under 40 ? Ok you could claim sensible economics but that isnt going to wash anymore.
    Not burdening them with the liability of the trillions of debt that a Corbyn government would borrow and pass the interest burdens on to the under 40s and younger. U
    The thing is the national debt

    The costs of the national debt are shared - the young and the poor.

    Pumping up real property prices has become the whole point of the conservative party since thatcher. New labour are despised by the left because they bought into this scam.

    If you don't own property - or are on a low rung of the property ladder - it's in your interests to vote corbyn.
    The Tories problem is that they can only make the young become property owners by masshousing building*, and reducing house prices. This either requires a period of high inflation, with high interest rates, and either negative equity for their voters or reduced potential inheritance.

    *house building is likely to require building on greenfield sites and also importing migrant labour, annoying 2 further strands of Tory voting.

    Corbyn's Labour will get at least 2 terms.
    It's a massive problem for them, electorally.
    They have to redistribute money to potential voters from existing Tory voters. Something that Corbyn can sell better than any Tory.
    This was an interesting comment from Wolfgang Schaeuble in relation to Brexit:

    http://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN19E1EX

    "(We need) not just mechanisms that consist of my promising something to a majority," he said.

    "Then you only have to look at the demographics to see that you'll end up with endless debates about redistribution that lead to jealousy."
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,263

    MikeL said:

    Not sure if already posted:

    PANELBASE POLL FOR SUNDAY TIMES:

    Lab 46
    Con 41

    Approval ratings:

    Corbyn +17
    May -17

    Sample size: 5,000

    Oh dear
    Feels right. I think the fire disaster was actually broadly neutral in party political terms, for the good reason that it's generally seen as shoddy design and inspection more than party political, but it's contributed to the general loss of confidence in May. Corbyn continues to ride the wave in Zen surfer style as the only politician actually offering a positive perspective - the Tory mantra seems to be the morose "It's all very difficult but we'll get you through it somehow", which is probably true as far as it goes (society is not about to collapse) but lacks inspiration.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,720

    Pong said:

    Pong said:

    nichomar said:

    Pong said:



    It seems anyone who dares to have politics even marginally different from Jeremy Corbyn is considered to be a Tory by Corbynistas. To them, the words Conservative and Blairite have lost any coherent meaning. 'Tory' and 'Blairite' now simply mean 'anyone that I don't like' for Corbynistas.

    Corbynistas vary, just like any other group. I know
    It's frustrating.



    She blew it.
    What have the tories to offer anyone under 40 ? Ok you could claim sensible economics but that isnt going to wash anymore.
    Not burdening them with the liability of the trillions of debt that a Corbyn government would borrow and pass the interest burdens on to the under 40s and younger. U
    The thing is the national debt is dwarfed by the real terms increase in house prices/housing costs - which, since the mid 70's, has transferred a pile of the nations wealth from non-property owners - and future property owners - to existing property owners.

    The more property you owned, the wealthier you became.

    The costs of the national debt are shared by everyone - the costs of the politically engineered house price boom have been piled onto the propertyless - the young and the poor.

    Pumping up real property prices has become the whole point of the conservative party since thatcher. New labour are despised by the left because they bought into this scam.

    If you don't own property - or are on a low rung of the property ladder - it's in your interests to vote corbyn.
    The Tories problem is that they can only make the young become property owners by masshousing building*, and reducing house prices. This either requires a period of high inflation, with high interest rates, and either negative equity for their voters or reduced potential inheritance.

    *house building is likely to require building on greenfield sites and also importing migrant labour, annoying 2 further strands of Tory voting.

    Corbyn's Labour will get at least 2 terms.
    It's a massive problem for them, electorally.
    They have to redistribute money to potential voters from existing Tory voters. Something that Corbyn can sell better than any Tory.
    Do you know what I fear Cornyn might not make it to the next election.

    Once Cornyn is gone the Tories have a chance IMO.
  • nunununu Posts: 6,024

    MikeL said:

    Not sure if already posted:

    PANELBASE POLL FOR SUNDAY TIMES:

    Lab 46
    Con 41

    Approval ratings:

    Corbyn +17
    May -17

    Sample size: 5,000

    Oh dear
    Feels right. I think the fire disaster was actually broadly neutral in party political terms, for the good reason that it's generally seen as shoddy design and inspection more than party political, but it's contributed to the general loss of confidence in May. Corbyn continues to ride the wave in Zen surfer style as the only politician actually offering a positive perspective - the Tory mantra seems to be the morose "It's all very difficult but we'll get you through it somehow", which is probably true as far as it goes (society is not about to collapse) but lacks inspiration.
    Tories will be happy the Labour lead is only 5% after all the shit poured on May for the last few days.
This discussion has been closed.