At least 30 Conservative MPs have indicated to their own Government that they will not accept leaving the European Union without an agreed deal.
Sky News has been told the MPs informed whips that the economic impact of a "cliff-edge" Brexit, alongside the failure of the Conservatives to win a majority for its manifesto, should lead to a rethink of the position that "no deal is better than a bad deal".
she holds an election so the headbangers cant blackmail her and instead the Diane Abbott wing of the party do
I can't say I'm surprised but this is the sort of behaviour that will tear the Conservatives apart in office.
They should go and make representations to May privately and always back her publicly.
The Conservatives' most passionate and deep-rooted hatred is for each other.
Just to reiterate my prediction that Brexit won't actually happen.
You can all start sending abuse now.
My view is when people hear the speech at 11.30 today many of the remains few doubters will awake to the fact it's happening. A pivotal moment with even less scope for turning back judging by the content.
You could argue that twelve months on, I am stuck in the denial stage of grief. I accept this is possible. I think though it's not denial, but thinking that the the state of the economy is so poor (and getting worse as we enter another recession) that Brexit will not be deliverable.
The people will change their minds.
I guess there's only a few like me and Nick Clegg and Ken Clarke clinging to this now.
You are by no means the only one watching this slow motion multiple car crash with a mixture of awe and horror.
Farron - sad to see him go, and that the modern liberal party have such illiberal values and are overcome by PC. Lamb to replace him maybe? Cable too old and too much baggage, Swinson probably a little young but will make a good deputy.
Sad to see Farron go? A shouty student politician who managed to see the LibDems go backwards in vote share when up against Corbyn and May.
You might not like the way he was toppled, but the LDs should be very grateful.
Yes, I was referring to the way he went and his comments on Christianity. His anti-democratic position on Brexit did for him electorally.
If Jo Swinson isn't going to run (and her decision not to do so is a mistake in my opinion), Vince Cable is the right choice. The Lib Dems lack relevance most of all. Vince Cable remains box office and has a chance of getting them the airtime they need.
The dry-as-dust Conservative Eurosceptic vote is not one he will be chasing in the short term, so the fact he annoys many pbers in that demographic probably isn't fatal to his chances with the public.
The Lib Dems need to reposition IMO. Old men in a hurry can do that sometimes. cf Pope John 23 and the Second Vatican Council. Or Adenauer, who actually went on for another 15 years.
The issue the UK has, and has had for some time, is that economy is fundamentally unbalanced.
In the wake of the financial crisis, many countries were forced to fundamentally rebalance. Places like Spain needed to see dramatic falls in consumption and real wages to bring income and expense in-line.
We did the opposite. Osborne and Cameron pursued a consumption first policy keep the economy moving. And it worked: our economy bounced back more quickly than those that went the other direction. But the price was high. We now run a horrendous trade deficit, and the UK has the lowest saving rate in 40 years (and quite possibly all time; I don't have a longer time series).
This makes us uniquely vulnerable. If we slip into recession, the ability of the government to stimulate consumer spending (by adding yet more debt) is almost non-existent. Of course, we could add fiscal stimulus, but it is worth remembering that this would happen at a time when our budget deficit would be going in the wrong way already (and when our government debt levels are already elevated).
The UK economy looks very like Spain in 2007: a low savings rate, a huge trade deficit, and a complacent view that the economic model is working.
I fear we're going to hit a horrible economic roadblock almost completely unrelated to Brexit in the middle of Brexit negotiations. It will hammer the Conservative reputation for economic competence and potentially lead to a Corbyn or McDonnell government.
At the very least Brexit is a huge distraction from dealing with our real problems.
Unfortunately we just discovered that there are no votes in dealing with our problems. Voters actually think we've been experiencing austerity. Shit's gonna get ALOT worse before it gets better.
Massively helped along by Corbyn's economics the way things are going.
Very good threadstarter which explains something that had puzzled me yesterday. I'm a bit annoyed with myself for altering my positions (I'm actually not that much down on Cable relative to beforehand, but then I was green on Betfair as well, and had planned to lay the other two when I could).
So, still ahead, but only on Ladbrokes. Bit of an admin cock-up on my part. Stupid Cable, announcing first.
Mr. Sandpit, yeah, think it was Mr. M. I didn't back that. Humbug.
4/5 is now the standout price on Vince with Betway. His price seemed to tumble merely by him announcing he was standing. If Lamb or any other throw their hat in their price will tighten and I'm expect Vince to drift. Lamb is 11/4 with Bet365. They allow cashouts on their leadership markets so there's scope for a trading play there if you're confident he will run. He was around 6/4 before Vince made his announcement.
I find Cable totally unattractive as a voting proposition. Even if they want Swinson in post before an election they should at least be trying to make the brand more appealing in the interim. VC does the opposite for me.
The issue the UK has, and has had for some time, is that economy is fundamentally unbalanced.
In the wake of the financial crisis, many countries were forced to fundamentally rebalance. Places like Spain needed to see dramatic falls in consumption and real wages to bring income and expense in-line.
We did the opposite. Osborne and Cameron pursued a consumption first policy keep the economy moving. And it worked: our economy bounced back more quickly than those that went the other direction. But the price was high. We now run a horrendous trade deficit, and the UK has the lowest saving rate in 40 years (and quite possibly all time; I don't have a longer time series).
This makes us uniquely vulnerable. If we slip into recession, the ability of the government to stimulate consumer spending (by adding yet more debt) is almost non-existent. Of course, we could add fiscal stimulus, but it is worth remembering that this would happen at a time when our budget deficit would be going in the wrong way already (and when our government debt levels are already elevated).
The UK economy looks very like Spain in 2007: a low savings rate, a huge trade deficit, and a complacent view that the economic model is working.
I fear we're going to hit a horrible economic roadblock almost completely unrelated to Brexit in the middle of Brexit negotiations. It will hammer the Conservative reputation for economic competence and potentially lead to a Corbyn or McDonnell government.
At the very least Brexit is a huge distraction from dealing with our real problems.
Unfortunately we just discovered that there are no votes in dealing with our problems. Voters actually think we've been experiencing austerity. Shit's gonna get ALOT worse before it gets better.
Well I am glad to know you can see the shit shower on its way, Patrick, but didn't you vote for it?
The issue the UK has, and has had for some time, is that economy is fundamentally unbalanced.
In the wake of the financial crisis, many countries were forced to fundamentally rebalance. Places like Spain needed to see dramatic falls in consumption and real wages to bring income and expense in-line.
We did the opposite. Osborne and Cameron pursued a consumption first policy keep the economy moving. And it worked: our economy bounced back more quickly than those that went the other direction. But the price was high. We now run a horrendous trade deficit, and the UK has the lowest saving rate in 40 years (and quite possibly all time; I don't have a longer time series).
This makes us uniquely vulnerable. If we slip into recession, the ability of the government to stimulate consumer spending (by adding yet more debt) is almost non-existent. Of course, we could add fiscal stimulus, but it is worth remembering that this would happen at a time when our budget deficit would be going in the wrong way already (and when our government debt levels are already elevated).
The UK economy looks very like Spain in 2007: a low savings rate, a huge trade deficit, and a complacent view that the economic model is working.
I fear we're going to hit a horrible economic roadblock almost completely unrelated to Brexit in the middle of Brexit negotiations. It will hammer the Conservative reputation for economic competence and potentially lead to a Corbyn or McDonnell government.
At the very least Brexit is a huge distraction from dealing with our real problems.
Unfortunately we just discovered that there are no votes in dealing with our problems. Voters actually think we've been experiencing austerity. Shit's gonna get ALOT worse before it gets better.
In Spain, public sector workers first lost their 13th month payment (an 8% pay cut) and then saw a further 5% across the board cut. There were similar cuts in Ireland, Portugal and Greece.
Mr. 1000, could equally argue that Labour is to blame. Had we had the promised vote on Lisbon we would not only have voted it down (and the vetoes it stripped from us, to be replaced by QMV) but Article 50 would not even have existed.
At least 30 Conservative MPs have indicated to their own Government that they will not accept leaving the European Union without an agreed deal.
Sky News has been told the MPs informed whips that the economic impact of a "cliff-edge" Brexit, alongside the failure of the Conservatives to win a majority for its manifesto, should lead to a rethink of the position that "no deal is better than a bad deal".
Fine. If that is the way the negotiations pan out (and I hope it isn't) then they can only stop it by bringing down the Government. I wonder how many of them have the courage of their convictions to end their careers over the issue?
Fire - Probably too much has been said about the political aspect of it, most of which I found both insensitive and opportunistic - too many people appear to think of the PM as an arsonist, judging from some of the extreme language bandied about. It's clear that those to the disaster are being infiltrated by the hard left.
From a technical standpoint, the major problem was the cladding which looks to be the same as that involved in similar fires in this part of the world. The difference being that over here the more modern buildings had centralised alarm systems monitored by security staff, sprinkler systems, multiple vented staircases, dry risers etc. There additional safeguards have saved hundreds of lives.
The advise to stay put and have fires contained clearly isn't appropriate for externally-clad buildings, needs to be urgently changed but requires monitored alarm systems to avoid evacuating the building every time someone overlooks their toast. Maybe these old tower blocks just need to be condemned rather than refurbished?
There will be inquests and a public enquiry, which should be allowed to report in due course. The immediate issue of accommodating those affected has been put into place, the govt needs to quickly work with investigators to determine the impact on other similar buildings though. It's quite possible that tens of thousands of people will need to be relocated in short order.
Well done as always to the emergency services who responded and continue to do so, I hope they get good counselling as some will have seen things that people should never see.
The issue the UK has, and has had for some time, is that economy is fundamentally unbalanced.
In the wake of the financial crisis, many countries were forced to fundamentally rebalance. Places like Spain needed to see dramatic falls in consumption and real wages to bring income and expense in-line.
We did the opposite. Osborne and Cameron pursued a consumption first policy keep the economy moving. And it worked: our economy bounced back more quickly than those that went the other direction. But the price was high. We now run a horrendous trade deficit, and the UK has the lowest saving rate in 40 years (and quite possibly all time; I don't have a longer time series).
This makes us uniquely vulnerable. If we slip into recession, the ability of the government to stimulate consumer spending (by adding yet more debt) is almost non-existent. Of course, we could add fiscal stimulus, but it is worth remembering that this would happen at a time when our budget deficit would be going in the wrong way already (and when our government debt levels are already elevated).
The UK economy looks very like Spain in 2007: a low savings rate, a huge trade deficit, and a complacent view that the economic model is working.
I fear we're going to hit a horrible economic roadblock almost completely unrelated to Brexit in the middle of Brexit negotiations. It will hammer the Conservative reputation for economic competence and potentially lead to a Corbyn or McDonnell government.
At the very least Brexit is a huge distraction from dealing with our real problems.
Unfortunately we just discovered that there are no votes in dealing with our problems. Voters actually think we've been experiencing austerity. Shit's gonna get ALOT worse before it gets better.
In Spain, public sector workers first lost their 13th month payment (an 8% pay cut) and then saw a further 5% across the board cut. There were similar cuts in Ireland, Portugal and Greece.
That's what real austerity looks like.
In real terms how does the progression of pay in those countries compare to public sector pay in the UK over the last 10 years?
At least 30 Conservative MPs have indicated to their own Government that they will not accept leaving the European Union without an agreed deal.
Sky News has been told the MPs informed whips that the economic impact of a "cliff-edge" Brexit, alongside the failure of the Conservatives to win a majority for its manifesto, should lead to a rethink of the position that "no deal is better than a bad deal".
Fine. If that is the way the negotiations pan out (and I hope it isn't) then they can only stop it by bringing down the Government. I wonder how many of them have the courage of their convictions to end their careers over the issue?
and hand the country over to a bunch of Marxists to boot.
Mr. 1000, could equally argue that Labour is to blame. Had we had the promised vote on Lisbon we would not only have voted it down (and the vetoes it stripped from us, to be replaced by QMV) but Article 50 would not even have existed.
Brexit - this is now the focus of everything. I'm expecting the Queen's Speech to have little else in it except some infrastructure stuff, Heathrow and HS2 bills and maybe something anti-terror related. Let DD get on with what needs to be done, Leave May where she is as a lightning rod, she can resign on the day we leave the EU, her work complete.
Little comment made on the appointment of trade negotiator Crawford Falconer and Prince Andrew making a good speech in Singapore about internationalism following Brexit. Both long overdue, and we really should get the Airmiles Andy his new yacht - no matter what we may think of it at home, in places that are important to our trade these things really do make a difference. A private bond to fund it should be easy to arrange if public funding is seen as politically difficult.
Those assuming that the hung parliament means 'soft brexit' are IMO mistaken. Every vote in the Commons will be on the 'softening' measures, with 'harder' measures the default. Corbyn wants well out of the Single Market as it's incompatible with large chunks of his manifesto pledges.
It's very clear from the last 48 hours that various parts of the press are going to be spinning like mad over every detail of the negotiations, the vast majority of which is utter bollocks that adds nothing to the conversation.
Mr. 1000, could equally argue that Labour is to blame. Had we had the promised vote on Lisbon we would not only have voted it down (and the vetoes it stripped from us, to be replaced by QMV) but Article 50 would not even have existed.
This is not about the Brexit. This is the consequence of us not rebalancing our economy following the Global Financial Crisis.
The Western world was addicted to debt. Countries like Spain went cold turkey, cut out the debt, and rebalanced their economies. We're the alcoholic wino who's had a morning swig and is blissfully unaware of our problems.
Brexit will, for sure, get the blame. But the ultimate failure lies with those politicians who chose the short-term easy answer (just one more drink...) over the long-term difficult one.
At least 30 Conservative MPs have indicated to their own Government that they will not accept leaving the European Union without an agreed deal.
Sky News has been told the MPs informed whips that the economic impact of a "cliff-edge" Brexit, alongside the failure of the Conservatives to win a majority for its manifesto, should lead to a rethink of the position that "no deal is better than a bad deal".
she holds an election so the headbangers cant blackmail her and instead the Diane Abbott wing of the party do
I can't say I'm surprised but this is the sort of behaviour that will tear the Conservatives apart in office.
They should go and make representations to May privately and always back her publicly.
The Conservatives' most passionate and deep-rooted hatred is for each other.
Just to reiterate my prediction that Brexit won't actually happen.
You can all start sending abuse now.
My view is when people hear the speech at 11.30 today many of the remains few doubters will awake to the fact it's happening. A pivotal moment with even less scope for turning back judging by the content.
You could argue that twelve months on, I am stuck in the denial stage of grief. I accept this is possible. I think though it's not denial, but thinking that the the state of the economy is so poor (and getting worse as we enter another recession) that Brexit will not be deliverable.
The people will change their minds.
I guess there's only a few like me and Nick Clegg and Ken Clarke clinging to this now.
I think the people will change their minds, but only when it is too late and car crash Brexit is imminent. The backlash against the Tory right will be severe and well deserved, but ultimately just further self destruction of our future.
If Jo Swinson isn't going to run (and her decision not to do so is a mistake in my opinion), Vince Cable is the right choice. The Lib Dems lack relevance most of all. Vince Cable remains box office and has a chance of getting them the airtime they need.
The dry-as-dust Conservative Eurosceptic vote is not one he will be chasing in the short term, so the fact he annoys many pbers in that demographic probably isn't fatal to his chances with the public.
I agree about Jo Swinson. If she had the level of support that Mike indicates she should have gone for it now. There would have been time to learn on the job.
Swinson would have been a second disaster after Farron, another version of state control Labour is not the way a party with the Liberal banner should go, especially against Corbyn. Great potential at present to hoover up some support from both sides with a proper Liberal agenda, Cable has the profile, Lamb the quality, both can do a good job getting them back in the game.
Oh, and big LOL at everyone complaining about heat and humidity. Was 46 degrees and 75% humidity here yesterday. Walking from a cold office outside, your sunglasses steam up in a couple of seconds!
It's already over 40 again now and it's not midday yet!
At least 30 Conservative MPs have indicated to their own Government that they will not accept leaving the European Union without an agreed deal.
Sky News has been told the MPs informed whips that the economic impact of a "cliff-edge" Brexit, alongside the failure of the Conservatives to win a majority for its manifesto, should lead to a rethink of the position that "no deal is better than a bad deal".
she holds an election so the headbangers cant blackmail her and instead the Diane Abbott wing of the party do
I can't say I'm surprised but this is the sort of behaviour that will tear the Conservatives apart in office.
They should go and make representations to May privately and always back her publicly.
The Conservatives' most passionate and deep-rooted hatred is for each other.
Just to reiterate my prediction that Brexit won't actually happen.
You can all start sending abuse now.
My view is when people hear the speech at 11.30 today many of the remains few doubters will awake to the fact it's happening. A pivotal moment with even less scope for turning back judging by the content.
You could argue that twelve months on, I am stuck in the denial stage of grief. I accept this is possible. I think though it's not denial, but thinking that the the state of the economy is so poor (and getting worse as we enter another recession) that Brexit will not be deliverable.
The people will change their minds.
I guess there's only a few like me and Nick Clegg and Ken Clarke clinging to this now.
You are by no means the only one watching this slow motion multiple car crash with a mixture of awe and horror.
The issue the UK has, and has had for some time, is that economy is fundamentally unbalanced.
In the wake of the financial crisis, many countries were forced to fundamentally rebalance. Places like Spain needed to see dramatic falls in consumption and real wages to bring income and expense in-line.
We did the opposite. Osborne and Cameron pursued a consumption first policy keep the economy moving. And it worked: our economy bounced back more quickly than those that went the other direction. But the price was high. We now run a horrendous trade deficit, and the UK has the lowest saving rate in 40 years (and quite possibly all time; I don't have a longer time series).
This makes us uniquely vulnerable. If we slip into recession, the ability of the government to stimulate consumer spending (by adding yet more debt) is almost non-existent. Of course, we could add fiscal stimulus, but it is worth remembering that this would happen at a time when our budget deficit would be going in the wrong way already (and when our government debt levels are already elevated).
The UK economy looks very like Spain in 2007: a low savings rate, a huge trade deficit, and a complacent view that the economic model is working.
I fear we're going to hit a horrible economic roadblock almost completely unrelated to Brexit in the middle of Brexit negotiations. It will hammer the Conservative reputation for economic competence and potentially lead to a Corbyn or McDonnell government.
At the very least Brexit is a huge distraction from dealing with our real problems.
Unfortunately we just discovered that there are no votes in dealing with our problems. Voters actually think we've been experiencing austerity. Shit's gonna get ALOT worse before it gets better.
In Spain, public sector workers first lost their 13th month payment (an 8% pay cut) and then saw a further 5% across the board cut. There were similar cuts in Ireland, Portugal and Greece.
That's what real austerity looks like.
In real terms how does the progression of pay in those countries compare to public sector pay in the UK over the last 10 years?
Well, they initially fell dramatically compared to the UK, but are now climbing faster than the UK. (And inflation was, of course, negative for much of the period in those countries.) Still: public sector workers are probably earning 10% less in real terms now than in 2007.
The issue the UK has, and has had for some time, is that economy is fundamentally unbalanced.
In the wake of the financial crisis, many countries were forced to fundamentally rebalance. Places like Spain needed to see dramatic falls in consumption and real wages to bring income and expense in-line.
We did the opposite. Osborne and Cameron pursued a consumption first policy keep the economy moving. And it worked: our economy bounced back more quickly than those that went the other direction. But the price was high. We now run a horrendous trade deficit, and the UK has the lowest saving rate in 40 years (and quite possibly all time; I don't have a longer time series).
This makes us uniquely vulnerable. If we slip into recession, the ability of the government to stimulate consumer spending (by adding yet more debt) is almost non-existent. Of course, we could add fiscal stimulus, but it is worth remembering that this would happen at a time when our budget deficit would be going in the wrong way already (and when our government debt levels are already elevated).
The UK economy looks very like Spain in 2007: a low savings rate, a huge trade deficit, and a complacent view that the economic model is working.
I fear we're going to hit a horrible economic roadblock almost completely unrelated to Brexit in the middle of Brexit negotiations. It will hammer the Conservative reputation for economic competence and potentially lead to a Corbyn or McDonnell government.
At the very least Brexit is a huge distraction from dealing with our real problems.
Unfortunately we just discovered that there are no votes in dealing with our problems. Voters actually think we've been experiencing austerity. Shit's gonna get ALOT worse before it gets better.
Well I am glad to know you can see the shit shower on its way, Patrick, but didn't you vote for it?
I voted for the UK to be closely linked with the EU in a mutually beneficial trading arrangement - but not a political union. Never. A free and trade minded UK would do just fine. In fact I think we need the discipline of that if we are to ever properly rebalance our economy. Staying in the EU is capitulating to statism, nannyism, high tax high spend. I want a competitive , lower tax and spend UK. Brexit, if done properly, will be a fine and wonderful thing. The problem is that we are not doing it properly. And, more fundamentally, we aren't yet as a counry thinking about how to be more competitive. We are worrying about how we can each get more from other people's tax. We're becoming a nation of losers, cheerfully voting away our future to a communist.
The issue the UK has, and has had for some time, is that economy is fundamentally unbalanced.
In the wake of the financial crisis, many countries were forced to fundamentally rebalance. Places like Spain needed to see dramatic falls in consumption and real wages to bring income and expense in-line.
We did the opposite. Osborne and Cameron pursued a consumption first policy keep the economy moving. And it worked: our economy bounced back more quickly than those that went the other direction. But the price was high. We now run a horrendous trade deficit, and the UK has the lowest saving rate in 40 years (and quite possibly all time; I don't have a longer time series).
This makes us uniquely vulnerable. If we slip into recession, the ability of the government to stimulate consumer spending (by adding yet more debt) is almost non-existent. Of course, we could add fiscal stimulus, but it is worth remembering that this would happen at a time when our budget deficit would be going in the wrong way already (and when our government debt levels are already elevated).
The UK economy looks very like Spain in 2007: a low savings rate, a huge trade deficit, and a complacent view that the economic model is working.
I fear we're going to hit a horrible economic roadblock almost completely unrelated to Brexit in the middle of Brexit negotiations. It will hammer the Conservative reputation for economic competence and potentially lead to a Corbyn or McDonnell government.
Perhaps - but at the Zero Lower Bound, fiscal stimulus is an option. It's what Lab proposed and might have got more traction had there not also been a raft of bonkers tax measures.
Also, houses here generally don't have aircon, so if you work in a room that's south-facing the actual temperature will be significantly higher than the outside temperature.
Mr. 1000, and who's going to propose such a change? The divergence from business as usual is Corbyn's borrowing binge and free unicorns for the Corbynistas.
It's not a good idea to drink so early in the day, Floater.
Showing your prejudices there Peter.
First, I am not a sun reader and used to have a very negative view of their objectivity and truthfulness.
Then, a long while back I was on a presentation skills course and I don't recall why the subject of newspaper reporting came up.
I think to a man and woman we all took the piss out of the sun - only to be shot down by the guy running the course.
Turns out a survey reviewing how the papers reported facts found the sun the most accurate.
No one was more shocked than I.
Anyway, this is an opinion piece rather than a news article - but the point is just don't assume that a paper you don't like doesn't reflect the truth of a matter.
I can't remember your political leanings but I have seen too many people over the years ignoring news they didn't like because it came from the wrong news source or from someone they didn't like.
The issue the UK has, and has had for some time, is that economy is fundamentally unbalanced.
In the wake of the financial crisis, many countries were forced to fundamentally rebalance. Places like Spain needed to see dramatic falls in consumption and real wages to bring income and expense in-line.
We did the opposite. Osborne and Cameron pursued a consumption first policy keep the economy moving. And it worked: our economy bounced back more quickly than those that went the other direction. But the price was high. We now run a horrendous trade deficit, and the UK has the lowest saving rate in 40 years (and quite possibly all time; I don't have a longer time series).
This makes us uniquely vulnerable. If we slip into recession, the ability of the government to stimulate consumer spending (by adding yet more debt) is almost non-existent. Of course, we could add fiscal stimulus, but it is worth remembering that this would happen at a time when our budget deficit would be going in the wrong way already (and when our government debt levels are already elevated).
The UK economy looks very like Spain in 2007: a low savings rate, a huge trade deficit, and a complacent view that the economic model is working.
I fear we're going to hit a horrible economic roadblock almost completely unrelated to Brexit in the middle of Brexit negotiations. It will hammer the Conservative reputation for economic competence and potentially lead to a Corbyn or McDonnell government.
At the very least Brexit is a huge distraction from dealing with our real problems.
Unfortunately we just discovered that there are no votes in dealing with our problems. Voters actually think we've been experiencing austerity. Shit's gonna get ALOT worse before it gets better.
In Spain, public sector workers first lost their 13th month payment (an 8% pay cut) and then saw a further 5% across the board cut. There were similar cuts in Ireland, Portugal and Greece.
That's what real austerity looks like.
In real terms how does the progression of pay in those countries compare to public sector pay in the UK over the last 10 years?
Well, they initially fell dramatically compared to the UK, but are now climbing faster than the UK. (And inflation was, of course, negative for much of the period in those countries.) Still: public sector workers are probably earning 10% less in real terms now than in 2007.
They had massive gains though 1997 to 2007, plus great pension provision. Overall most get a decent deal still, especially teacher's who make a lot of noise.
The issue the UK has, and has had for some time, is that economy is fundamentally unbalanced.
In the wake of the financial crisis, many countries were forced to fundamentally rebalance. Places like Spain needed to see dramatic falls in consumption and real wages to bring income and expense in-line.
We did the opposite. Osborne and Cameron pursued a consumption first policy keep the economy moving. And it worked: our economy bounced back more quickly than those that went the other direction. But the price was high. We now run a horrendous trade deficit, and the UK has the lowest saving rate in 40 years (and quite possibly all time; I don't have a longer time series).
This makes us uniquely vulnerable. If we slip into recession, the ability of the government to stimulate consumer spending (by adding yet more debt) is almost non-existent. Of course, we could add fiscal stimulus, but it is worth remembering that this would happen at a time when our budget deficit would be going in the wrong way already (and when our government debt levels are already elevated).
The UK economy looks very like Spain in 2007: a low savings rate, a huge trade deficit, and a complacent view that the economic model is working.
I fear we're going to hit a horrible economic roadblock almost completely unrelated to Brexit in the middle of Brexit negotiations. It will hammer the Conservative reputation for economic competence and potentially lead to a Corbyn or McDonnell government.
At the very least Brexit is a huge distraction from dealing with our real problems.
Unfortunately we just discovered that there are no votes in dealing with our problems. Voters actually think we've been experiencing austerity. Shit's gonna get ALOT worse before it gets better.
In Spain, public sector workers first lost their 13th month payment (an 8% pay cut) and then saw a further 5% across the board cut. There were similar cuts in Ireland, Portugal and Greece.
That's what real austerity looks like.
In real terms how does the progression of pay in those countries compare to public sector pay in the UK over the last 10 years?
Well, they initially fell dramatically compared to the UK, but are now climbing faster than the UK. (And inflation was, of course, negative for much of the period in those countries.) Still: public sector workers are probably earning 10% less in real terms now than in 2007.
That probably makes them relatively better off than our own public sector, which is down roughly 15% in real terms over the decade, with no end in sight.
I wonder how a 'Common Market' European party would get on if it formed now?
Something along the lines of the entity we thought we were voting for in 1975. No eventual ain of a giant European country, and concentrating on breaking down trade barriers. An economic rather than a political union? Common standards would be fine and they'd promote trade, but the rest is political rather than economic
The issue the UK has, and has had for some time, is that economy is fundamentally unbalanced.
In the wake of the financial crisis, many countries were forced to fundamentally rebalance. Places like Spain needed to see dramatic falls in consumption and real wages to bring income and expense in-line.
We did the opposite. Osborne and Cameron pursued a consumption first policy keep the economy moving. And it worked: our economy bounced back more quickly than those that went the other direction. But the price was high. We now run a horrendous trade deficit, and the UK has the lowest saving rate in 40 years (and quite possibly all time; I don't have a longer time series).
This makes us uniquely vulnerable. If we slip into recession, the ability of the government to stimulate consumer spending (by adding yet more debt) is almost non-existent. Of course, we could add fiscal stimulus, but it is worth remembering that this would happen at a time when our budget deficit would be going in the wrong way already (and when our government debt levels are already elevated).
The UK economy looks very like Spain in 2007: a low savings rate, a huge trade deficit, and a complacent view that the economic model is working.
I fear we're going to hit a horrible economic roadblock almost completely unrelated to Brexit in the middle of Brexit negotiations. It will hammer the Conservative reputation for economic competence and potentially lead to a Corbyn or McDonnell government.
At the very least Brexit is a huge distraction from dealing with our real problems.
Unfortunately we just discovered that there are no votes in dealing with our problems. Voters actually think we've been experiencing austerity. Shit's gonna get ALOT worse before it gets better.
In Spain, public sector workers first lost their 13th month payment (an 8% pay cut) and then saw a further 5% across the board cut. There were similar cuts in Ireland, Portugal and Greece.
That's what real austerity looks like.
Given the reaction to the Tory manifesto, I'm convinced that we should have done proper austerity as they did in Ireland. Rebase by 15-20% of all public salaries, benefit entitlements and pensions, in cash terms, in 2010.
Osborne did a pretty good job of keeping growth positive and the deficit falling, but it seems the public have had enough of the 'austerity' that saw spending rise every year.
At least 30 Conservative MPs have indicated to their own Government that they will not accept leaving the European Union without an agreed deal.
Sky News has been told the MPs informed whips that the economic impact of a "cliff-edge" Brexit, alongside the failure of the Conservatives to win a majority for its manifesto, should lead to a rethink of the position that "no deal is better than a bad deal".
she holds an election so the headbangers cant blackmail her and instead the Diane Abbott wing of the party do
I can't say I'm surprised but this is the sort of behaviour that will tear the Conservatives apart in office.
They should go and make representations to May privately and always back her publicly.
The Conservatives' most passionate and deep-rooted hatred is for each other.
Just to reiterate my prediction that Brexit won't actually happen.
You can all start sending abuse now.
My view is when people hear the speech at 11.30 today many of the remains few doubters will awake to the fact it's happening. A pivotal moment with even less scope for turning back judging by the content.
You could argue that twelve months on, I am stuck in the denial stage of grief. I accept this is possible. I think though it's not denial, but thinking that the the state of the economy is so poor (and getting worse as we enter another recession) that Brexit will not be deliverable.
The people will change their minds.
I guess there's only a few like me and Nick Clegg and Ken Clarke clinging to this now.
I think the people will change their minds, but only when it is too late and car crash Brexit is imminent. The backlash against the Tory right will be severe and well deserved, but ultimately just further self destruction of our future.
The conservative official position was remain - Labours position was to basically not bother to hard to support staying in (we all know how their leadership felt about the EU) - remind me which areas of country voted most heavily for leave?
But only sections of conservative party to be blamed?
Even going back a few years which tory leader was it who went to sign a certain treaty on his own after the main event which bound us closer to the mess that is the EU?
The Jacobite News Network understands that the Conservative/DUP pact is foundering as Arlene Foster is having deep reservations about dealing with the crackpots in the Conservative party. In addition she is particularly concerned that the level of competence shown by Theresa May makes it unlikely the PM could guarantee any level of organization of a celebration in a large alcohol provision facility.
Further disquiet has been noted in the DUP at the poor show the government is putting on for Her Majesty for the Queens's Speech. A state landau is being replaced by the old LibDem parliamentary party taxi. The Queen's crown will now be Christmas cracker paper hat and Her Majesties state robes will now be a fetching two piece ensemble from Primark. A meal deal from Morrisons will provide light refreshment.
Owing to time pressure there is also some speculation that the Queen will reprise her starring role for the London Olympics and depart Westminster for Royal Ascot by helicopter and jump into the Royal Enclosure by accompanied by the Prime Minister .... the latter according to Buckingham Palace will be allowed to test her strong and stable mantra as she hits the turf having also exited the helicopter but without the aid of a parachute.
At least 30 Conservative MPs have indicated to their own Government that they will not accept leaving the European Union without an agreed deal.
S They should go and make representations to May privately and always back her publicly.
The Conservatives' most passionate and deep-rooted hatred is for each other.
Just to reiterate my prediction that Brexit won't actually happen.
You can all start sending abuse now.
My view is when people hear the speech at 11.30 today many of the remains few doubters will awake to the fact it's happening. A pivotal moment with even less scope for turning back judging by the content.
You could argue that twelve months on, I am stuck in the denial stage of grief. I accept this is possible. I think though it's not denial, but thinking that the the state of the economy is so poor (and getting worse as we enter another recession) that Brexit will not be deliverable.
The people will change their minds.
I guess there's only a few like me and Nick Clegg and Ken Clarke clinging to this now.
I think the people will change their minds, but only when it is too late and car crash Brexit is imminent. The backlash against the Tory right will be severe and well deserved, but ultimately just further self destruction of our future.
The conservative official position was remain - Labours position was to basically not bother to hard to support staying in (we all know how their leadership felt about the EU) - remind me which areas of country voted most heavily for leave?
But only sections of conservative party to be blamed?
Even going back a few years which tory leader was it who went to sign a certain treaty on his own after the main event which bound us closer to the mess that is the EU?
Oh wait, that was Brown / Labour.
Plenty of blame to be spread around
The Government in situ takes the blame. Witness, for example, Tony Blair and Iraq. The fact the Conservative Party supported him helped not one jot, and rightly so.
The arithmetic is that the Tories should win the Queen's Speech vote 316-312 if the Unionists abstain. A reminder that May doesn't need their support in order to govern, she just needs a lack of their opposition.
The issue the UK has, and has had for some time, is that economy is fundamentally unbalanced.
In the wake of the financial crisis, many countries were forced to fundamentally rebalance. Places like Spain needed to see dramatic falls in consumption and real wages to bring income and expense in-line.
We did the opposite. Osborne and Cameron pursued a consumption first policy keep the economy moving. And it worked: our economy bounced back more quickly than those that went the other direction. But the price was high. We now run a horrendous trade deficit, and the UK has the lowest saving rate in 40 years (and quite possibly all time; I don't have a longer time series).
This makes us uniquely vulnerable. If we slip into recession, the ability of the government to stimulate consumer spending (by adding yet more debt) is almost non-existent. Of course, we could add fiscal stimulus, but it is worth remembering that this would happen at a time when our budget deficit would be going in the wrong way already (and when our government debt levels are already elevated).
The UK economy looks very like Spain in 2007: a low savings rate, a huge trade deficit, and a complacent view that the economic model is working.
I fear we're going to hit a horrible economic roadblock almost completely unrelated to Brexit in the middle of Brexit negotiations. It will hammer the Conservative reputation for economic competence and potentially lead to a Corbyn or McDonnell government.
At the very least Brexit is a huge distraction from dealing with our real problems.
Unfortunately we just discovered that there are no votes in dealing with our problems. Voters actually think we've been experiencing austerity. Shit's gonna get ALOT worse before it gets better.
In Spain, public sector workers first lost their 13th month payment (an 8% pay cut) and then saw a further 5% across the board cut. There were similar cuts in Ireland, Portugal and Greece.
That's what real austerity looks like.
Given the reaction to the Tory manifesto, I'm convinced that we should have done proper austerity as they did in Ireland. Rebase by 15-20% of all public salaries, benefit entitlements and pensions, in cash terms, in 2010.
Osborne did a pretty good job of keeping growth positive and the deficit falling, but it seems the public have had enough of the 'austerity' that saw spending rise every year.
I read the other day that Osborne and co did seriously consider the 'Canadian Option' of drastic public spending cuts. They ruled it out, can't remember why - probably just felt it was not deliverable and then the coalition happened anyway.
Something along the lines of the entity we thought we were voting for in 1975. No eventual ain of a giant European country, and concentrating on breaking down trade barriers. An economic rather than a political union? Common standards would be fine and they'd promote trade, but the rest is political rather than economic
This is revisionism. The European Community was always a political project that we joined for political reasons because our post-imperial role had played itself out and we had no other compelling options.
It's only subsequently that the 'big lie' has been created about people having been conned. In fact it's remarkable how in contemporaneous debates the pro-EC side tended to use grand political arguments much more than the anti-EC side who wanted to focus on the price of butter.
At least 30 Conservative MPs have indicated to their own Government that they will not accept leaving the European Union without an agreed deal.
Sky News has been told the MPs informed whips that the economic impact of a "cliff-edge" Brexit, alongside the failure of the Conservatives to win a majority for its manifesto, should lead to a rethink of the position that "no deal is better than a bad deal".
she holds an election so the headbangers cant blackmail her and instead the Diane Abbott wing of the party do
I can't say I'm surprised but this is the sort of behaviour that will tear the Conservatives apart in office.
They should go and make representations to May privately and always back her publicly.
The Conservatives' most passionate and deep-rooted hatred is for each other.
Just to reiterate my prediction that Brexit won't actually happen.
You can all start sending abuse now.
My view is when people hear the speech at 11.30 today many of the remains few doubters will awake to the fact it's happening. A pivotal moment with even less scope for turning back judging by the content.
You could argue that twelve months on, I am stuck in the denial stage of grief. I accept this is possible. I think though it's not denial, but thinking that the the state of the economy is so poor (and getting worse as we enter another recession) that Brexit will not be deliverable.
The people will change their minds.
I guess there's only a few like me and Nick Clegg and Ken Clarke clinging to this now.
You are by no means the only one watching this slow motion multiple car crash with a mixture of awe and horror.
Very elegantly put Peter.
Add William Keegan to the mix. His columns in Observer are a bi-weekly summary of how bad it is going to be.
Morning all. Everyone suitably full of rage today? Interested in non clusterfuck news to see NASA confirming another 10 planets in habitable/liquid water zones around other stars and to see some mainstream scientists talking about the probability of some of these hosting complex lifeforms. If one is up with ones conspiracy theories, that's all proceeding according to schedule. Fun times.
It's not a good idea to drink so early in the day, Floater.
Showing your prejudices there Peter.
First, I am not a sun reader and used to have a very negative view of their objectivity and truthfulness.
Then, a long while back I was on a presentation skills course and I don't recall why the subject of newspaper reporting came up.
I think to a man and woman we all took the piss out of the sun - only to be shot down by the guy running the course.
Turns out a survey reviewing how the papers reported facts found the sun the most accurate.
No one was more shocked than I.
Anyway, this is an opinion piece rather than a news article - but the point is just don't assume that a paper you don't like doesn't reflect the truth of a matter.
I can't remember your political leanings but I have seen too many people over the years ignoring news they didn't like because it came from the wrong news source or from someone they didn't like.
What is PB for if not to show our prejudices, Floater!
It was a flippant remark on a sunny morning but if you want to get serious I should say that on the evidence of the GE not many take note of what the current bun says these days, and with good reason.
The Jacobite News Network understands that the Conservative/DUP pact is foundering as Arlene Foster is having deep reservations about dealing with the crackpots in the Conservative party. In addition she is particularly concerned that the level of competence shown by Theresa May makes it unlikely the PM could guarantee any level of organization of a celebration in a large alcohol provision facility.
Further disquiet has been noted in the DUP at the poor show the government is putting on for Her Majesty for the Queens's Speech. A state landau is being replaced by the old LibDem parliamentary party taxi. The Queen's crown will now be Christmas cracker paper hat and Her Majesties state robes will now be a fetching two piece ensemble from Primark. A meal deal from Morrisons will provide light refreshment.
Owing to time pressure there is also some speculation that the Queen will reprise her starring role for the London Olympics and depart Westminster for Royal Ascot by helicopter and jump into the Royal Enclosure by accompanied by the Prime Minister .... the latter according to Buckingham Palace will be allowed to test her strong and stable mantra as she hits the turf having also exited the helicopter but without the aid of a parachute.
I wonder how a 'Common Market' European party would get on if it formed now?
Something along the lines of the entity we thought we were voting for in 1975. No eventual ain of a giant European country, and concentrating on breaking down trade barriers. An economic rather than a political union? Common standards would be fine and they'd promote trade, but the rest is political rather than economic
Isn't that where we are heading anyway? Except that we will only have a 'consultative' role in rule-making.
The Jacobite News Network understands that the Conservative/DUP pact is foundering as Arlene Foster is having deep reservations about dealing with the crackpots in the Conservative party. In addition she is particularly concerned that the level of competence shown by Theresa May makes it unlikely the PM could guarantee any level of organization of a celebration in a large alcohol provision facility.
Further disquiet has been noted in the DUP at the poor show the government is putting on for Her Majesty for the Queens's Speech. A state landau is being replaced by the old LibDem parliamentary party taxi. The Queen's crown will now be Christmas cracker paper hat and Her Majesties state robes will now be a fetching two piece ensemble from Primark. A meal deal from Morrisons will provide light refreshment.
Owing to time pressure there is also some speculation that the Queen will reprise her starring role for the London Olympics and depart Westminster for Royal Ascot by helicopter and jump into the Royal Enclosure by accompanied by the Prime Minister .... the latter according to Buckingham Palace will be allowed to test her strong and stable mantra as she hits the turf having also exited the helicopter but without the aid of a parachute.
Maybe Her Majesty will instead of delivering the speach announce direct rule fron Buckingham Palace to much aclaim from the public
The issue the UK has, and has had for some time, is that economy is fundamentally unbalanced.
In the wake of the financial crisis, many countries were forced to fundamentally rebalance. Places like Spain needed to see dramatic falls in consumption and real wages to bring income and expense in-line.
We did the opposite. Osborne and Cameron pursued a consumption first policy keep the economy moving. And it worked: our economy bounced back more quickly than those that went the other direction. But the price was high. We now run a horrendous trade deficit, and the UK has the lowest saving rate in 40 years (and quite possibly all time; I don't have a longer time series).
This makes us uniquely vulnerable. If we slip into recession, the ability of the government to stimulate consumer spending (by adding yet more debt) is almost non-existent. Of course, we could add fiscal stimulus, but it is worth remembering that this would happen at a time when our budget deficit would be going in the wrong way already (and when our government debt levels are already elevated).
The UK economy looks very like Spain in 2007: a low savings rate, a huge trade deficit, and a complacent view that the economic model is working.
I fear we're going to hit a horrible economic roadblock almost completely unrelated to Brexit in the middle of Brexit negotiations. It will hammer the Conservative reputation for economic competence and potentially lead to a Corbyn or McDonnell government.
At the very least Brexit is a huge distraction from dealing with our real problems.
Unfortunately we just discovered that there are no votes in dealing with our problems. Voters actually think we've been experiencing austerity. Shit's gonna get ALOT worse before it gets better.
Well I am glad to know you can see the shit shower on its way, Patrick, but didn't you vote for it?
I voted for the UK to be closely linked with the EU in a mutually beneficial trading arrangement - but not a political union. Never. A free and trade minded UK would do just fine. In fact I think we need the discipline of that if we are to ever properly rebalance our economy. Staying in the EU is capitulating to statism, nannyism, high tax high spend. I want a competitive , lower tax and spend UK. Brexit, if done properly, will be a fine and wonderful thing. The problem is that we are not doing it properly. And, more fundamentally, we aren't yet as a counry thinking about how to be more competitive. We are worrying about how we can each get more from other people's tax. We're becoming a nation of losers, cheerfully voting away our future to a communist.
As a Nation, we are becoming an international laughing stock.
The conservative official position was remain - Labours position was to basically not bother to hard to support staying in (we all know how their leadership felt about the EU) - remind me which areas of country voted most heavily for leave?
But only sections of conservative party to be blamed?
Even going back a few years which tory leader was it who went to sign a certain treaty on his own after the main event which bound us closer to the mess that is the EU?
Oh wait, that was Brown / Labour.
Plenty of blame to be spread around
The overriding blame must fall on the Tory party which tolerated and then collaborated with the cancer of Euroscepticism at its heart. Wet pragmatists like Cameron became so used to appeasing these people that in the end they and became consumed by them. Decades of avoiding the argument instead of winning the argument caught up on them.
The issue the UK has, and has had for some time, is that economy is fundamentally unbalanced.
In the wake of the financial crisis, many countries were forced to fundamentally rebalance. Places like Spain needed to see dramatic falls in consumption and real wages to bring income and expense in-line.
We did the opposite. Osborne and Cameron pursued a consumption first policy keep the economy moving. And it worked: our economy bounced back more quickly than those that went the other direction. But the price was high. We now run a horrendous trade deficit, and the UK has the lowest saving rate in 40 years (and quite possibly all time; I don't have a longer time series).
This makes us uniquely vulnerable. If we slip into recession, the ability of the government to stimulate consumer spending (by adding yet more debt) is almost non-existent. Of course, we could add fiscal stimulus, but it is worth remembering that this would happen at a time when our budget deficit would be going in the wrong way already (and when our government debt levels are already elevated).
The UK economy looks very like Spain in 2007: a low savings rate, a huge trade deficit, and a complacent view that the economic model is working.
I SNIP
Well I am glad to know you can see the shit shower on its way, Patrick, but didn't you vote for it?
I voted for the UK to be closely linked with the EU in a mutually beneficial trading arrangement - but not a political union. Never. A free and trade minded UK would do just fine. In fact I think we need the discipline of that if we are to ever properly rebalance our economy. Staying in the EU is capitulating to statism, nannyism, high tax high spend. I want a competitive , lower tax and spend UK. Brexit, if done properly, will be a fine and wonderful thing. The problem is that we are not doing it properly. And, more fundamentally, we aren't yet as a counry thinking about how to be more competitive. We are worrying about how we can each get more from other people's tax. We're becoming a nation of losers, cheerfully voting away our future to a communist.
As a Nation, we are becoming an international laughing stock.
The conservative official position was remain - Labours position was to basically not bother to hard to support staying in (we all know how their leadership felt about the EU) - remind me which areas of country voted most heavily for leave?
But only sections of conservative party to be blamed?
Even going back a few years which tory leader was it who went to sign a certain treaty on his own after the main event which bound us closer to the mess that is the EU?
Oh wait, that was Brown / Labour.
Plenty of blame to be spread around
...the cancer of Euroscepticism ...
No democrat you. I am very pro being friendly and tradey with all our European friends. But not wishing to join them in political union is a cancer? Fuck you. Sideways. With a pineapple.
It's not a good idea to drink so early in the day, Floater.
Showing your prejudices there Peter.
First, I am not a sun reader and used to have a very negative view of their objectivity and truthfulness.
Then, a long while back I was on a presentation skills course and I don't recall why the subject of newspaper reporting came up.
I think to a man and woman we all took the piss out of the sun - only to be shot down by the guy running the course.
Turns out a survey reviewing how the papers reported facts found the sun the most accurate.
No one was more shocked than I.
Anyway, this is an opinion piece rather than a news article - but the point is just don't assume that a paper you don't like doesn't reflect the truth of a matter.
I can't remember your political leanings but I have seen too many people over the years ignoring news they didn't like because it came from the wrong news source or from someone they didn't like.
What is PB for if not to show our prejudices, Floater!
It was a flippant remark on a sunny morning but if you want to get serious I should say that on the evidence of the GE not many take note of what the current bun says these days, and with good reason.
I don't think t he Sun's bad on facts; it's the interpretation.
I wonder how a 'Common Market' European party would get on if it formed now?
Something along the lines of the entity we thought we were voting for in 1975. No eventual ain of a giant European country, and concentrating on breaking down trade barriers. An economic rather than a political union? Common standards would be fine and they'd promote trade, but the rest is political rather than economic
Isn't that where we are heading anyway? Except that we will only have a 'consultative' role in rule-making.
At least 30 Conservative MPs have indicated to their own Government that they will not accept leaving the European Union without an agreed deal.
Sky News has been told the MPs informed whips that the economic impact of a "cliff-edge" Brexit, alongside the failure of the Conservatives to win a majority for its manifesto, should lead to a rethink of the position that "no deal is better than a bad deal".
she holds an election so the headbangers cant blackmail her and instead the Diane Abbott wing of the party do
I can't say I'm surprised but this is the sort of behaviour that will tear the Conservatives apart in office.
They should go and make representations to May privately and always back her publicly.
The Conservatives' most passionate and deep-rooted hatred is for each other.
Just to reiterate my prediction that Brexit won't actually happen.
You can all start sending abuse now.
My view is when people hear the speech at 11.30 today many of the remains few doubters will awake to the fact it's happening. A pivotal moment with even less scope for turning back judging by the content.
You could argue that twelve months on, I am stuck in the denial stage of grief. I accept this is possible. I think though it's not denial, but thinking that the the state of the economy is so poor (and getting worse as we enter another recession) that Brexit will not be deliverable.
The people will change their minds.
I guess there's only a few like me and Nick Clegg and Ken Clarke clinging to this now.
You are by no means the only one watching this slow motion multiple car crash with a mixture of awe and horror.
Yes indeed. Mr Borough can add me to his list as well.
At least 30 Conservative MPs have indicated to their own Government that they will not accept leaving the European Union without an agreed deal.
Sky News has been told the MPs informed whips that the economic impact of a "cliff-edge" Brexit, alongside the failure of the Conservatives to win a majority for its manifesto, should lead to a rethink of the position that "no deal is better than a bad deal".
Fine. If that is the way the negotiations pan out (and I hope it isn't) then they can only stop it by bringing down the Government. I wonder how many of them have the courage of their convictions to end their careers over the issue?
We've been through this. I'm 67, I was 25 in 1975 and more interested in politics than I am now (before I gained cynicism).
Even then, young people were going up to people born in the 1920s and explaining that they'd got it all wrong about the austerity of the 1930s, and they knew better because they'd read a book about it.
At least 30 Conservative MPs have indicated to their own Government that they will not accept leaving the European Union without an agreed deal.
Sky News has been told the MPs informed whips that the economic impact of a "cliff-edge" Brexit, alongside the failure of the Conservatives to win a majority for its manifesto, should lead to a rethink of the position that "no deal is better than a bad deal".
she holds an election so the headbangers cant blackmail her and instead the Diane Abbott wing of the party do
I can't say I'm surprised but this is the sort of behaviour that will tear the Conservatives apart in office.
They should go and make representations to May privately and always back her publicly.
The Conservatives' most passionate and deep-rooted hatred is for each other.
Just to reiterate my prediction that Brexit won't actually happen.
You can all start sending abuse now.
My view is when people hear the speech at 11.30 today many of the remains few doubters will awake to the fact it's happening. A pivotal moment with even less scope for turning back judging by the content.
You could argue that twelve months on, I am stuck in the denial stage of grief. I accept this is possible. I think though it's not denial, but thinking that the the state of the economy is so poor (and getting worse as we enter another recession) that Brexit will not be deliverable.
The people will change their minds.
I guess there's only a few like me and Nick Clegg and Ken Clarke clinging to this now.
You are by no means the only one watching this slow motion multiple car crash with a mixture of awe and horror.
Yes indeed. Mr Borough can add me to his list as well.
The conservative official position was remain - Labours position was to basically not bother to hard to support staying in (we all know how their leadership felt about the EU) - remind me which areas of country voted most heavily for leave?
But only sections of conservative party to be blamed?
Even going back a few years which tory leader was it who went to sign a certain treaty on his own after the main event which bound us closer to the mess that is the EU?
Oh wait, that was Brown / Labour.
Plenty of blame to be spread around
The overriding blame must fall on the Tory party which tolerated and then collaborated with the cancer of Euroscepticism at its heart. Wet pragmatists like Cameron became so used to appeasing these people that in the end they and became consumed by them. Decades of avoiding the argument instead of winning the argument caught up on them.
No. It was a democratic decision. There were 4m people who we can say explicitly wanted to leave the EU, together with an unspecified number who probably wanted to. Was it the issue most important to these latter? Perhaps not. But it was a boil that needed lancing.
I find it difficult to blame the Cons for holding an election to lance the boil. And boy was it lanced.
The conservative official position was remain - Labours position was to basically not bother to hard to support staying in (we all know how their leadership felt about the EU) - remind me which areas of country voted most heavily for leave?
But only sections of conservative party to be blamed?
Even going back a few years which tory leader was it who went to sign a certain treaty on his own after the main event which bound us closer to the mess that is the EU?
Oh wait, that was Brown / Labour.
Plenty of blame to be spread around
The overriding blame must fall on the Tory party which tolerated and then collaborated with the cancer of Euroscepticism at its heart. Wet pragmatists like Cameron became so used to appeasing these people that in the end they and became consumed by them. Decades of avoiding the argument instead of winning the argument caught up on them.
Fascinating stuff in the new books about Brexit, on the Tory-UKIP defection, about Carswell and Reckless. They basically deliberately jumped ship to UKIP, in order to both 'detoxify' the UKIP brand to help its public appeal with a specifically anti-EU, rather than just noxiously anti immigration agenda, with the idea being to both 'play' farage and cameron ; the result was these tories were accepted into the UKIP fold to destigmatise it on immigration and so make its straightforwardly anti-EU message for widely popular and acceptable, while cameron swallowed the bait of thinking two tories jumping ship to UKIP meant the end of civilisation, and so was essentially bluffed into calling a referendum. Job done for the anti-European Tory hardcore ultra faction, with consequences that will resound for the rest of us for decades on end.
The conservative official position was remain - Labours position was to basically not bother to hard to support staying in (we all know how their leadership felt about the EU) - remind me which areas of country voted most heavily for leave?
But only sections of conservative party to be blamed?
Even going back a few years which tory leader was it who went to sign a certain treaty on his own after the main event which bound us closer to the mess that is the EU?
Oh wait, that was Brown / Labour.
Plenty of blame to be spread around
The overriding blame must fall on the Tory party which tolerated and then collaborated with the cancer of Euroscepticism at its heart. Wet pragmatists like Cameron became so used to appeasing these people that in the end they and became consumed by them. Decades of avoiding the argument instead of winning the argument caught up on them.
No. It was a democratic decision. There were 4m people who we can say explicitly wanted to leave the EU, together with an unspecified number who probably wanted to. Was it the issue most important to these latter? Perhaps not. But it was a boil that needed lancing.
I find it difficult to blame the Cons for holding an election to lance the boil. And boy was it lanced.
I'm not blaming them for holding the referendum but for helping to create the climate which made a referendum necessary in the first place.
Yesterday was the 27th anniversary of the Conservative government proposing the hard ECU (with the backing of Bill Cash!) as an alternative to the Euro. Bitterness over losing that argument to Jacques Delors combined with recriminations after Thatcher was brought down created a toxic brew.
The conservative official position was remain - Labours position was to basically not bother to hard to support staying in (we all know how their leadership felt about the EU) - remind me which areas of country voted most heavily for leave?
But only sections of conservative party to be blamed?
Even going back a few years which tory leader was it who went to sign a certain treaty on his own after the main event which bound us closer to the mess that is the EU?
Oh wait, that was Brown / Labour.
Plenty of blame to be spread around
The overriding blame must fall on the Tory party which tolerated and then collaborated with the cancer of Euroscepticism at its heart. Wet pragmatists like Cameron became so used to appeasing these people that in the end they and became consumed by them. Decades of avoiding the argument instead of winning the argument caught up on them.
Fascinating stuff in the new books about Brexit, on the Tory-UKIP defection, about Carswell and Reckless. They basically deliberately jumped ship to UKIP, in order to both 'detoxify' the UKIP brand to help its public appeal with a specifically anti-EU, rather than just noxiously anti immigration agenda, with the idea being to both 'play' farage and cameron ; the result was these tories were accepted into the UKIP fold to destigmatise it on immigration and so make its straightforwardly anti-EU message for widely popular and acceptable, while cameron swallowed the bait of thinking two tories jumping ship to UKIP meant the end of civilisation, and so was essentially bluffed into calling a referendum. Job done for the anti-European Tory hardcore ultra faction, with consequences that will resound for the rest of us for decades on end.
Hmm mmmmmmmm listening to Damien Green this morning it occurs to me that the Tories might be the ones sinking the DUP deal deliberately. Too many letters of horror received from constituents. They have got the DUP to agree to back a QS and are banking that and refusing further cooperation feeling the DUP won't bring them down? The report about telling MPs to cancel all evening plans money to Thurs when parliament is sitting does suggest they know this could all collapse at any moment.
The conservative official position was remain - Labours position was to basically not bother to hard to support staying in (we all know how their leadership felt about the EU) - remind me which areas of country voted most heavily for leave?
But only sections of conservative party to be blamed?
Even going back a few years which tory leader was it who went to sign a certain treaty on his own after the main event which bound us closer to the mess that is the EU?
Oh wait, that was Brown / Labour.
Plenty of blame to be spread around
The overriding blame must fall on the Tory party which tolerated and then collaborated with the cancer of Euroscepticism at its heart. Wet pragmatists like Cameron became so used to appeasing these people that in the end they and became consumed by them. Decades of avoiding the argument instead of winning the argument caught up on them.
Fascinating stuff in the new books about Brexit, on the Tory-UKIP defection, about Carswell and Reckless. They basically deliberately jumped ship to UKIP, in order to both 'detoxify' the UKIP brand to help its public appeal with a specifically anti-EU, rather than just noxiously anti immigration agenda, with the idea being to both 'play' farage and cameron ; the result was these tories were accepted into the UKIP fold to destigmatise it on immigration and so make its straightforwardly anti-EU message for widely popular and acceptable, while cameron swallowed the bait of thinking two tories jumping ship to UKIP meant the end of civilisation, and so was essentially bluffed into calling a referendum. Job done for the anti-European Tory hardcore ultra faction, with consequences that will resound for the rest of us for decades on end.
I was heavily and actively involved in UKIP at the time, we couldn't believe our luck that Carswell and Reckless had supplanted some of the prominent nutjobs. Such a shame it ended the way it did, albeit with mission accomplished. I'm convinced there is both room and a need for a libertarian type party with the likes of those 2 and Dan Hannan involved.
The conservative official position was remain - Labours position was to basically not bother to hard to support staying in (we all know how their leadership felt about the EU) - remind me which areas of country voted most heavily for leave?
But only sections of conservative party to be blamed?
Even going back a few years which tory leader was it who went to sign a certain treaty on his own after the main event which bound us closer to the mess that is the EU?
Oh wait, that was Brown / Labour.
Plenty of blame to be spread around
The overriding blame must fall on the Tory party which tolerated and then collaborated with the cancer of Euroscepticism at its heart. Wet pragmatists like Cameron became so used to appeasing these people that in the end they and became consumed by them. Decades of avoiding the argument instead of winning the argument caught up on them.
No. It was a democratic decision. There were 4m people who we can say explicitly wanted to leave the EU, together with an unspecified number who probably wanted to. Was it the issue most important to these latter? Perhaps not. But it was a boil that needed lancing.
I find it difficult to blame the Cons for holding an election to lance the boil. And boy was it lanced.
I'm not blaming them for holding the referendum but for helping to create the climate which made a referendum necessary in the first place.
Yesterday was the 27th anniversary of the Conservative government proposing the hard ECU (with the backing of Bill Cash!) as an alternative to the Euro. Bitterness over losing that argument to Jacques Delors combined with recriminations after Thatcher was brought down created a toxic brew.
That I don't dispute; we have seen the Bastards never really go away these past few decades.
WOW! The libdems website says she could be the stop Vince candidate. I'm shocked.
No, but the potted bio comes from there.
I don't think the LDs should follow the Tories down the cul de sac of tokenism. The leadership should be about ideas and direction, not chromosomes. The Tories wanted another Maggie that way, and got a female Gordon Brown without the personal charm.
The newbie MP's need to prove themselves in the Commons first.
I will be voting against Cable, principally because of his record.
What don't you like in his record?
He was disloyal in coalition, architect of tuition fees and is too close to Labour.
My problem with Cable is that he is the architect and defender of tuition fees, seller of Royal Mail at knockdown price and too close to the Tories (in spite of his Labour history).
Edit: I don't mind his age. He is two weeks younger than me.
It wasn't a knock down price. 3 years on the company is trading at IPO price. Which means the total shareholder return has been the dividend payments (@pulpstar). Not sure what the yield is but assuming 3-4%.
If your pension fund had bought shares at, say, 600p and they were now trading at 450p I doubt you'd be congratulation the government on a job well done
The companies that advised him on the price (£3.30) were allowed to take a very large holding at that price. On day one, in October 2013, the share price went up 36% to £4.50 and the advisers were allowed to sell their shares at a vast profit. The public were restricted to 227 shares, but if they applied for more than £1000 they got none. It was an absolute scandal and Cable was responsible for it.
The current price is nothing to do with the scandal.
PS From your comment I think you might be confusing the 2013 sale at £3.30 with the sale in 2015 at £4.55 which was nothing to do with Cable.
The conservative official position was remain - Labours position was to basically not bother to hard to support staying in (we all know how their leadership felt about the EU) - remind me which areas of country voted most heavily for leave?
But only sections of conservative party to be blamed?
Even going back a few years which tory leader was it who went to sign a certain treaty on his own after the main event which bound us closer to the mess that is the EU?
Oh wait, that was Brown / Labour.
Plenty of blame to be spread around
The overriding blame must fall on the Tory party which tolerated and then collaborated with the cancer of Euroscepticism at its heart. Wet pragmatists like Cameron became so used to appeasing these people that in the end they and became consumed by them. Decades of avoiding the argument instead of winning the argument caught up on them.
No. It was a democratic decision. There were 4m people who we can say explicitly wanted to leave the EU, together with an unspecified number who probably wanted to. Was it the issue most important to these latter? Perhaps not. But it was a boil that needed lancing.
I find it difficult to blame the Cons for holding an election to lance the boil. And boy was it lanced.
Democratic decision my ass! How can you reach a decision when 15,000,000 of the voters had not the faintest idea what the function of the EU was or how leaving it would affect us.
It was tantamount to asking whether we should get rid of the civil service so we could give power back to the politicians and save £350,000,000 a week.
The public are so used to parliamentary democracy they didn't belive they would be being asked a question if the answer actually mattered.
The conservative official position was remain - Labours position was to basically not bother to hard to support staying in (we all know how their leadership felt about the EU) - remind me which areas of country voted most heavily for leave?
But only sections of conservative party to be blamed?
Even going back a few years which tory leader was it who went to sign a certain treaty on his own after the main event which bound us closer to the mess that is the EU?
Oh wait, that was Brown / Labour.
Plenty of blame to be spread around
The overriding blame must fall on the Tory party which tolerated and then collaborated with the cancer of Euroscepticism at its heart. Wet pragmatists like Cameron became so used to appeasing these people that in the end they and became consumed by them. Decades of avoiding the argument instead of winning the argument caught up on them.
No. It was a democratic decision. There were 4m people who we can say explicitly wanted to leave the EU, together with an unspecified number who probably wanted to. Was it the issue most important to these latter? Perhaps not. But it was a boil that needed lancing.
I find it difficult to blame the Cons for holding an election to lance the boil. And boy was it lanced.
Democratic decision my ass! How can you reach a decision when 15,000,000 of the voters had not the faintest idea what the function of the EU was or how leaving it would affect us.
It was tantamount to asking whether we should get rid of the civil service so we could give power back to the politicians and save £350,000,000 a week.
The public are so used to parliamentary democracy they didn't realise they would be being asked a question if the answer actually mattered.
HMQ today opens parliament in day dress so we can expect her to enter the chamber clapping her hands together to get rid of the excess flour, take off the royal pinny and lay down the law. Naturally, it all ends with conciliation and the tasting of the royal scones.
The issue the UK has, and has had for some time, is that economy is fundamentally unbalanced.
In the wake of the financial crisis, many countries were forced to fundamentally rebalance. Places like Spain needed to see dramatic falls in consumption and real wages to bring income and expense in-line.
We did the opposite. Osborne and Cameron pursued a consumption first policy keep the economy moving. And it worked: our economy bounced back more quickly than those that went the other direction. But the price was high. We now run a horrendous trade deficit, and the UK has the lowest saving rate in 40 years (and quite possibly all time; I don't have a longer time series).
This makes us uniquely vulnerable. If we slip into recession, the ability of the government to stimulate consumer spending (by adding yet more debt) is almost non-existent. Of course, we could add fiscal stimulus, but it is worth remembering that this would happen at a time when our budget deficit would be going in the wrong way already (and when our government debt levels are already elevated).
The UK economy looks very like Spain in 2007: a low savings rate, a huge trade deficit, and a complacent view that the economic model is working.
I fear we're going to hit a horrible economic roadblock almost completely unrelated to Brexit in the middle of Brexit negotiations. It will hammer the Conservative reputation for economic competence and potentially lead to a Corbyn or McDonnell government.
At the very least Brexit is a huge distraction from dealing with our real problems.
Unfortunately we just discovered that there are no votes in dealing with our problems. Voters actually think we've been experiencing austerity. Shit's gonna get ALOT worse before it gets better.
In Spain, public sector workers first lost their 13th month payment (an 8% pay cut) and then saw a further 5% across the board cut. There were similar cuts in Ireland, Portugal and Greece.
That's what real austerity looks like.
Hopefully Schauble, the architect of EU austerity, will be gone in September and the boot will be taken off Greece's neck. Corbyn might feel a bit warmer to the EU then.
The conservative official position was remain - Labours position was to basically not bother to hard to support staying in (we all know how their leadership felt about the EU) - remind me which areas of country voted most heavily for leave?
But only sections of conservative party to be blamed?
Even going back a few years which tory leader was it who went to sign a certain treaty on his own after the main event which bound us closer to the mess that is the EU?
Oh wait, that was Brown / Labour.
Plenty of blame to be spread around
The overriding blame must fall on the Tory party which tolerated and then collaborated with the cancer of Euroscepticism at its heart. Wet pragmatists like Cameron became so used to appeasing these people that in the end they and became consumed by them. Decades of avoiding the argument instead of winning the argument caught up on them.
No. It was a democratic decision. There were 4m people who we can say explicitly wanted to leave the EU, together with an unspecified number who probably wanted to. Was it the issue most important to these latter? Perhaps not. But it was a boil that needed lancing.
I find it difficult to blame the Cons for holding an election to lance the boil. And boy was it lanced.
Democratic decision my ass! How can you reach a decision when 15,000,000 of the voters had not the faintest idea what the function of the EU was or how leaving it would affect us.
It was tantamount to asking whether we should get rid of the civil service so we could give power back to the politicians and save £350,000,000 a week.
The public are so used to parliamentary democracy they didn't belive they would be being asked a question if the answer actually mattered.
In a way I hope there's another referendum and you and the other Remainers on here are put in charge of the campaign. I'd conFidently predict 75% for LEAVE
The conservative official position was remain - Labours position was to basically not bother to hard to support staying in (we all know how their leadership felt about the EU) - remind me which areas of country voted most heavily for leave?
But only sections of conservative party to be blamed?
Even going back a few years which tory leader was it who went to sign a certain treaty on his own after the main event which bound us closer to the mess that is the EU?
Oh wait, that was Brown / Labour.
Plenty of blame to be spread around
The overriding blame must fall on the Tory party which tolerated and then collaborated with the cancer of Euroscepticism at its heart. Wet pragmatists like Cameron became so used to appeasing these people that in the end they and became consumed by them. Decades of avoiding the argument instead of winning the argument caught up on them.
No. It was a democratic decision. There were 4m people who we can say explicitly wanted to leave the EU, together with an unspecified number who probably wanted to. Was it the issue most important to these latter? Perhaps not. But it was a boil that needed lancing.
I find it difficult to blame the Cons for holding an election to lance the boil. And boy was it lanced.
Democratic decision my ass! How can you reach a decision when 15,000,000 of the voters had not the faintest idea what the function of the EU was or how leaving it would affect us.
It was tantamount to asking whether we should get rid of the civil service so we could give power back to the politicians and save £350,000,000 a week.
The public are so used to parliamentary democracy they didn't belive they would be being asked a question if the answer actually mattered.
We have representative democracy of course, but, and aside from not believing anyone else is capable of understanding the issues which I find distasteful to say the least, we had a referendum 40 years ago on it so someone trusted the public then.
The conservative official position was remain - Labours position was to basically not bother to hard to support staying in (we all know how their leadership felt about the EU) - remind me which areas of country voted most heavily for leave?
But only sections of conservative party to be blamed?
Even going back a few years which tory leader was it who went to sign a certain treaty on his own after the main event which bound us closer to the mess that is the EU?
Oh wait, that was Brown / Labour.
Plenty of blame to be spread around
The overriding blame must fall on the Tory party which tolerated and then collaborated with the cancer of Euroscepticism at its heart. Wet pragmatists like Cameron became so used to appeasing these people that in the end they and became consumed by them. Decades of avoiding the argument instead of winning the argument caught up on them.
No. It was a democratic decision. There were 4m people who we can say explicitly wanted to leave the EU, together with an unspecified number who probably wanted to. Was it the issue most important to these latter? Perhaps not. But it was a boil that needed lancing.
I find it difficult to blame the Cons for holding an election to lance the boil. And boy was it lanced.
Democratic decision my ass! How can you reach a decision when 15,000,000 of the voters had not the faintest idea what the function of the EU was or how leaving it would affect us.
It was tantamount to asking whether we should get rid of the civil service so we could give power back to the politicians and save £350,000,000 a week.
The public are so used to parliamentary democracy they didn't belive they would be being asked a question if the answer actually mattered.
If people didn't know what they were voting on, that's the fault of (1) the campaigns and (2) the voters themselves. It is not the fault of the system. But they voted all the same and their votes count as much as yours. The decision has been taken and needs to be implemented. Corbyn at least gets this. If Labour was daft enough to game-play to inflict a defeat on the government on membership of the Single Market - with all that implies for immigration, sovereignty and payments - you'd soon see how much real support there is in the country for that policy set. Central London does not represent the views of the country, still less Provence or Tuscany.
If the demonstrators trash London in the name of democracy, could someone pick me up a nice pair of trousers from M&S?
I suspect in this modern age where M&S find retailing difficult, a nice pair of trousers from M&S may be an oxymoron.
It is unbelievable how inept M&S are at identifying the needs and requirements of their potential customers, the styles that are required and providing a retail experience that is conducive to getting those potential customers to purchase. While some may consider it to be science, it isn't rocket science.
The conservative official position was remain - Labours position was to basically not bother to hard to support staying in (we all know how their leadership felt about the EU) - remind me which areas of country voted most heavily for leave?
But only sections of conservative party to be blamed?
Even going back a few years which tory leader was it who went to sign a certain treaty on his own after the main event which bound us closer to the mess that is the EU?
Oh wait, that was Brown / Labour.
Plenty of blame to be spread around
The overriding blame must fall on the Tory party which tolerated and then collaborated with the cancer of Euroscepticism at its heart. Wet pragmatists like Cameron became so used to appeasing these people that in the end they and became consumed by them. Decades of avoiding the argument instead of winning the argument caught up on them.
No. It was a democratic decision. There were 4m people who we can say explicitly wanted to leave the EU, together with an unspecified number who probably wanted to. Was it the issue most important to these latter? Perhaps not. But it was a boil that needed lancing.
I find it difficult to blame the Cons for holding an election to lance the boil. And boy was it lanced.
Democratic decision my ass! How can you reach a decision when 15,000,000 of the voters had not the faintest idea what the function of the EU was or how leaving it would affect us.
It was tantamount to asking whether we should get rid of the civil service so we could give power back to the politicians and save £350,000,000 a week.
The public are so used to parliamentary democracy they didn't belive they would be being asked a question if the answer actually mattered.
If people didn't know what they were voting on, that's the fault of (1) the campaigns and (2) the voters themselves. It is not the fault of the system. But they voted all the same and their votes count as much as yours. The decision has been taken and needs to be implemented. Corbyn at least gets this. If Labour was daft enough to game-play to inflict a defeat on the government on membership of the Single Market - with all that implies for immigration, sovereignty and payments - you'd soon see how much real support there is in the country for that policy set. Central London does not represent the views of the country, still less Provence or Tuscany.
Layla Moran, age 34, LibDem MP for Oxford West and Abingdon, could be the "Stop Vince Cable" candidate. Her mother is a Christian Arab from Jerusalem, and her father is a British EU Ambassador. She has lived in many countries including Belgium, Greece, Ethiopia, Jamaica and Jordan and speaks French fluently along with some Spanish, Arabic and Greek.
Elected five minutes ago and with a tiny majority. She might be a future leader - but surely too soon?
Even mentioning someone nobody has ever heard of is stupid, only Libdems could ever come up with that
If the demonstrators trash London in the name of democracy, could someone pick me up a nice pair of trousers from M&S?
I suspect in this modern age where M&S find retailing difficult, a nice pair of trousers from M&S may be an oxymoron.
It is unbelievable how inept M&S are at identifying the needs and requirements of their potential customers, the styles that are required and providing a retail experience that is conducive to getting those potential customers to purchase. While some may consider it to be science, it isn't rocket science.
I recall buying some socks in M&S .... I think it was 1974 ....
Their food halls are passable at a push. What I don't understand is this modern vogue for wire baskets and trolleys that customers are encouraged to walk around with. Don't these people employ footmen in appropriate livery and at the very least personal shoppers?
Layla Moran, age 34, LibDem MP for Oxford West and Abingdon, could be the "Stop Vince Cable" candidate. Her mother is a Christian Arab from Jerusalem, and her father is a British EU Ambassador. She has lived in many countries including Belgium, Greece, Ethiopia, Jamaica and Jordan and speaks French fluently along with some Spanish, Arabic and Greek.
Elected five minutes ago and with a tiny majority. She might be a future leader - but surely too soon?
Even mentioning someone nobody has ever heard of is stupid, only Libdems could ever come up with that
That's not fair on the Lib Dems. There are Conservatives who are seriously touting Graham Brady as Theresa May's replacement.
The conservative official position was remain - Laboud around
The overriding blame must fall on the Tory party which tolerated and then collaborated with the cancer of Euroscepticism at its heart. Wet pragmatists like Cameron became so used to appeasing these people that in the end they and became consumed by them. Decades of avoiding the argument instead of winning the argument caught up on them.
No. It was a democratic decision. There were 4m people who we can say explicitly wanted to leave the EU, together with an unspecified number who probably wanted to. Was it the issue most important to these latter? Perhaps not. But it was a boil that needed lancing.
I find it difficult to blame the Cons for holding an election to lance the boil. And boy was it lanced.
Democratic decision my ass! How can you reach a decision when 15,000,000 of the voters had not the faintest idea what the function of the EU was or how leaving it would affect us.
It was tantamount to asking whether we should get rid of the civil service so we could give power back to the politicians and save £350,000,000 a week.
The public are so used to parliamentary democracy they didn't belive they would be being asked a question if the answer actually mattered.
If people didn't know what they were voting on, that's the fault of (1) the campaigns and (2) the voters themselves. It is not the fault of the system. But they voted all the same and their votes count as much as yours. The decision has been taken and needs to be implemented. Corbyn at least gets this. If Labour was daft enough to game-play to inflict a defeat on the government on membership of the Single Market - with all that implies for immigration, sovereignty and payments - you'd soon see how much real support there is in the country for that policy set. Central London does not represent the views of the country, still less Provence or Tuscany.
The problem of course is that no one ever defined what leaving the EU should mean. We have had manifesto by soundbite.
As some may recall, it always amazed me that the official Leave manifesto produced by the official Leave campaign was somehow deemed not to be, er, the official Leave manifesto. But there you are; it has melted into the hot summer sun.
So that leaves us with no one who can definitively say what Leave should look like. Some say sovereignty, others immigration, others something else. But no one can say "this is what people voted for".
Under such circumstances, leaving the EU and then signing up to the single market under CJEU jurisdiction is as much leaving as any other option.
Tyndall won't be happy, but I suppose there is a silver lining to everything.
On topic, if Cable is elected, I expect that he'll soon find out how difficult it is for a septugenarian to run a minor party in the modern media age, where party leaders are expected to be - and have to be - available if not 24/7 then at least 18/7. He cannot delegate too much else an underling outshines him and raises questions as to why he or she wouldn't do better as leader. In any case, there are few MPs he can delegate to: by simply maths, he has to take on a much more prominent role than his opposite numbers in the Tory and Labour parties.
And the media will expect it. The LDs are a minor party these days: they have to fight for coverage - something Farron failed to really succeed in achieving. Cable has the advantage of much better and longer-established relationships with the media - expect favourable treatment from Peston (to the extent that ITV matters in news these days, which isn't much) but again it puts the pressure on him.
On top of which, he has to lead the running of his party in Westminster and the country. Some of that - but only some of that - can be left to others but MPs and members alike look to the leader both for practical leadership and for decisions, even in the consensual Lib Dems.
It is a highly demanding role. Some will point out that Corbyn is not much younger and did very well in the last election - indeed, he did well despite ignoring many of the things he "should" have been doing as a leader. That's true, but only at the cost of having led his party to a pretty disastrous and dysfunctional position before the election, where it was exploring new polling depths. A Lib Dem leader would not have the benefit of the same coverage guaranteed a Labour one. Nor should any party plan on the basis of an equally inept Tory campaign next time.
Mike suggests that Cable might do three years in role. That timescale looks reasonable if there's an early election. However, if parliament unexpectedly goes the distance, it's likely to be difficult to find a time where Cable can safely step down - we would still be one vote from a dissolution at any time. The prospects of the oldest party leader to contest a general election since Gladstone cannot be dismissed.
The conservative official position was remain - Labours position was to basically not bother to hard to support staying in (we all know how their leadership felt about the EU) - remind me which areas of country voted most heavily for leave?
But only sections of conservative party to be blamed?
Even going back a few years which tory leader was it who went to sign a certain treaty on his own after the main event which bound us closer to the mess that is the EU?
Oh wait, that was Brown / Labour.
Plenty of blame to be spread around
The overriding blame must fall on the Tory party which tolerated and then collaborated with the cancer of Euroscepticism at its heart. Wet pragmatists like Cameron became so used to appeasing these people that in the end they and became consumed by them. Decades of avoiding the argument instead of winning the argument caught up on them.
No. It was a democratic decision. There were 4m people who we can say explicitly wanted to leave the EU, together with an unspecified number who probably wanted to. Was it the issue most important to these latter? Perhaps not. But it was a boil that needed lancing.
I find it difficult to blame the Cons for holding an election to lance the boil. And boy was it lanced.
When a boil is lanced a lot of noxious pus is released!
Layla Moran, age 34, LibDem MP for Oxford West and Abingdon, could be the "Stop Vince Cable" candidate. Her mother is a Christian Arab from Jerusalem, and her father is a British EU Ambassador. She has lived in many countries including Belgium, Greece, Ethiopia, Jamaica and Jordan and speaks French fluently along with some Spanish, Arabic and Greek.
Elected five minutes ago and with a tiny majority. She might be a future leader - but surely too soon?
Even mentioning someone nobody has ever heard of is stupid, only Libdems could ever come up with that
malc - if you are ready to settle our election bet of £20 on the SNP under/over 50Mps then could you donate the payment to the Erskine Care home for Veterans ? Thanks.
The issue the UK has, and has had for some time, is that economy is fundamentally unbalanced.
In the wake of the financial crisis, many countries were forced to fundamentally rebalance. Places like Spain needed to see dramatic falls in consumption and real wages to bring income and expense in-line.
I fear we're going to hit a horrible economic roadblock almost completely unrelated to Brexit in the middle of Brexit negotiations. It will hammer the Conservative reputation for economic competence and potentially lead to a Corbyn or McDonnell government.
At the very least Brexit is a huge distraction from dealing with our real problems.
Unfortunately we just discovered that there are no votes in dealing with our problems. Voters actually think we've been experiencing austerity. Shit's gonna get ALOT worse before it gets better.
Well I am glad to know you can see the shit shower on its way, Patrick, but didn't you vote for it?
I voted for the UK to be closely linked with the EU in a mutually beneficial trading arrangement - but not a political union. Never. A free and trade minded UK would do just fine. In fact I think we need the discipline of that if we are to ever properly rebalance our economy. Staying in the EU is capitulating to statism, nannyism, high tax high spend. I want a competitive , lower tax and spend UK. Brexit, if done properly, will be a fine and wonderful thing. The problem is that we are not doing it properly. And, more fundamentally, we aren't yet as a counry thinking about how to be more competitive. We are worrying about how we can each get more from other people's tax. We're becoming a nation of losers, cheerfully voting away our future to a communist.
As a Nation, we are becoming an international laughing stock.
Peter, not "becoming" I am afraid, we "are" a laughing stock.
I'm hearing that the goat vellum for the Queen's Speech was not available in time so the Queen will be reading from the recycled paper of the pulped Conservative manifesto.
Layla Moran, age 34, LibDem MP for Oxford West and Abingdon, could be the "Stop Vince Cable" candidate. Her mother is a Christian Arab from Jerusalem, and her father is a British EU Ambassador. She has lived in many countries including Belgium, Greece, Ethiopia, Jamaica and Jordan and speaks French fluently along with some Spanish, Arabic and Greek.
None of which qualify you as a leader or indicate you have leadership skills.
Edit. Personally I think the best stop Vince candidate is Vince Cable
I have no idea as to whether Moran plans to stand, but Barnesian is merely quoting from the LD website, which has potted biographies of all 12 MP's.
WOW! The libdems website says she could be the stop Vince candidate. I'm shocked.
No, but the potted bio comes from there.
I don't think the LDs should follow the Tories down the cul de sac of tokenism. The leadership should be about ideas and direction, not chromosomes. The Tories wanted another Maggie that way, and got a female Gordon Brown without the personal charm.
The newbie MP's need to prove themselves in the Commons first.
I will be voting against Cable, principally because of his record.
What don't you like in his record?
He was disloyal in coalition, architect of tuition fees and is too close to Labour.
My problem with Cable is that he is the architect and defender of tuition fees, seller of Royal Mail at knockdown price and too close to the Tories (in spite of his Labour history).
Edit: I don't mind his age. He is two weeks younger than me.
It wasn't a knock down price. 3 years on the company is trading at IPO price. Which means the total shareholder return has been the dividend payments (@pulpstar). Not sure what the yield is but assuming 3-4%.
If your pension fund had bought shares at, say, 600p and they were now trading at 450p I doubt you'd be congratulation the government on a job well done
Is that correct? This says shares sold at 330p and taxpayers lost £1bn.
Closed 455p first day of trading. A 15-20% discount on IPO is market standard so this was at bottom of range because government didn't want hedges in register
Layla Moran, age 34, LibDem MP for Oxford West and Abingdon, could be the "Stop Vince Cable" candidate. Her mother is a Christian Arab from Jerusalem, and her father is a British EU Ambassador. She has lived in many countries including Belgium, Greece, Ethiopia, Jamaica and Jordan and speaks French fluently along with some Spanish, Arabic and Greek.
Elected five minutes ago and with a tiny majority. She might be a future leader - but surely too soon?
Even mentioning someone nobody has ever heard of is stupid, only Libdems could ever come up with that
That's not fair on the Lib Dems. There are Conservatives who are seriously touting Graham Brady as Theresa May's replacement.
And some of us voted for Owen Smith to be leader of the Labour Party!
Comments
I find Cable totally unattractive as a voting proposition. Even if they want Swinson in post before an election they should at least be trying to make the brand more appealing in the interim. VC does the opposite for me.
That's what real austerity looks like.
From a technical standpoint, the major problem was the cladding which looks to be the same as that involved in similar fires in this part of the world. The difference being that over here the more modern buildings had centralised alarm systems monitored by security staff, sprinkler systems, multiple vented staircases, dry risers etc. There additional safeguards have saved hundreds of lives.
The advise to stay put and have fires contained clearly isn't appropriate for externally-clad buildings, needs to be urgently changed but requires monitored alarm systems to avoid evacuating the building every time someone overlooks their toast. Maybe these old tower blocks just need to be condemned rather than refurbished?
There will be inquests and a public enquiry, which should be allowed to report in due course. The immediate issue of accommodating those affected has been put into place, the govt needs to quickly work with investigators to determine the impact on other similar buildings though. It's quite possible that tens of thousands of people will need to be relocated in short order.
Well done as always to the emergency services who responded and continue to do so, I hope they get good counselling as some will have seen things that people should never see.
It's not a good idea to drink so early in the day, Floater.
Labour is never to blame for anything.
https://twitter.com/DavidDavisMP/status/735770073822961664
Little comment made on the appointment of trade negotiator Crawford Falconer and Prince Andrew making a good speech in Singapore about internationalism following Brexit. Both long overdue, and we really should get the Airmiles Andy his new yacht - no matter what we may think of it at home, in places that are important to our trade these things really do make a difference. A private bond to fund it should be easy to arrange if public funding is seen as politically difficult.
Those assuming that the hung parliament means 'soft brexit' are IMO mistaken. Every vote in the Commons will be on the 'softening' measures, with 'harder' measures the default. Corbyn wants well out of the Single Market as it's incompatible with large chunks of his manifesto pledges.
It's very clear from the last 48 hours that various parts of the press are going to be spinning like mad over every detail of the negotiations, the vast majority of which is utter bollocks that adds nothing to the conversation.
The Western world was addicted to debt. Countries like Spain went cold turkey, cut out the debt, and rebalanced their economies. We're the alcoholic wino who's had a morning swig and is blissfully unaware of our problems.
Brexit will, for sure, get the blame. But the ultimate failure lies with those politicians who chose the short-term easy answer (just one more drink...) over the long-term difficult one.
It's already over 40 again now and it's not midday yet!
A free and trade minded UK would do just fine. In fact I think we need the discipline of that if we are to ever properly rebalance our economy. Staying in the EU is capitulating to statism, nannyism, high tax high spend. I want a competitive , lower tax and spend UK. Brexit, if done properly, will be a fine and wonderful thing. The problem is that we are not doing it properly. And, more fundamentally, we aren't yet as a counry thinking about how to be more competitive. We are worrying about how we can each get more from other people's tax. We're becoming a nation of losers, cheerfully voting away our future to a communist.
Also, houses here generally don't have aircon, so if you work in a room that's south-facing the actual temperature will be significantly higher than the outside temperature.
Mr. 1000, and who's going to propose such a change? The divergence from business as usual is Corbyn's borrowing binge and free unicorns for the Corbynistas.
First, I am not a sun reader and used to have a very negative view of their objectivity and truthfulness.
Then, a long while back I was on a presentation skills course and I don't recall why the subject of newspaper reporting came up.
I think to a man and woman we all took the piss out of the sun - only to be shot down by the guy running the course.
Turns out a survey reviewing how the papers reported facts found the sun the most accurate.
No one was more shocked than I.
Anyway, this is an opinion piece rather than a news article - but the point is just don't assume that a paper you don't like doesn't reflect the truth of a matter.
I can't remember your political leanings but I have seen too many people over the years ignoring news they didn't like because it came from the wrong news source or from someone they didn't like.
Something along the lines of the entity we thought we were voting for in 1975. No eventual ain of a giant European country, and concentrating on breaking down trade barriers. An economic rather than a political union? Common standards would be fine and they'd promote trade, but the rest is political rather than economic
Osborne did a pretty good job of keeping growth positive and the deficit falling, but it seems the public have had enough of the 'austerity' that saw spending rise every year.
But only sections of conservative party to be blamed?
Even going back a few years which tory leader was it who went to sign a certain treaty on his own after the main event which bound us closer to the mess that is the EU?
Oh wait, that was Brown / Labour.
Plenty of blame to be spread around
CCCC - Update - Day 13 - 0830 :
The Jacobite News Network understands that the Conservative/DUP pact is foundering as Arlene Foster is having deep reservations about dealing with the crackpots in the Conservative party. In addition she is particularly concerned that the level of competence shown by Theresa May makes it unlikely the PM could guarantee any level of organization of a celebration in a large alcohol provision facility.
Further disquiet has been noted in the DUP at the poor show the government is putting on for Her Majesty for the Queens's Speech. A state landau is being replaced by the old LibDem parliamentary party taxi. The Queen's crown will now be Christmas cracker paper hat and Her Majesties state robes will now be a fetching two piece ensemble from Primark. A meal deal from Morrisons will provide light refreshment.
Owing to time pressure there is also some speculation that the Queen will reprise her starring role for the London Olympics and depart Westminster for Royal Ascot by helicopter and jump into the Royal Enclosure by accompanied by the Prime Minister .... the latter according to Buckingham Palace will be allowed to test her strong and stable mantra as she hits the turf having also exited the helicopter but without the aid of a parachute.
It's only subsequently that the 'big lie' has been created about people having been conned. In fact it's remarkable how in contemporaneous debates the pro-EC side tended to use grand political arguments much more than the anti-EC side who wanted to focus on the price of butter.
Which one is Sean ? :-)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-4623620/Sadie-Frost-Jude-Law-new-Primrose-Hill-set.html
Interested in non clusterfuck news to see NASA confirming another 10 planets in habitable/liquid water zones around other stars and to see some mainstream scientists talking about the probability of some of these hosting complex lifeforms. If one is up with ones conspiracy theories, that's all proceeding according to schedule.
Fun times.
It was a flippant remark on a sunny morning but if you want to get serious I should say that on the evidence of the GE not many take note of what the current bun says these days, and with good reason.
Except that we will only have a 'consultative' role in rule-making.
"Isn't that where we are heading anyway?"
Probably. And that's because the politicians wanted to circumvent the will of the people. Better late than never.
"This is revisionism."
We've been through this. I'm 67, I was 25 in 1975 and more interested in politics than I am now (before I gained cynicism).
Even then, young people were going up to people born in the 1920s and explaining that they'd got it all wrong about the austerity of the 1930s, and they knew better because they'd read a book about it.
I find it difficult to blame the Cons for holding an election to lance the boil. And boy was it lanced.
there's so much bull**** from people floating around for political gains, this is real fake news which is out there and people lapping it up.
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v39/n12/ian-jack/now-to-stride-into-the-sunlight
Sounds like he's been working in the government Grenfell response and BREXIT team too.
Yesterday was the 27th anniversary of the Conservative government proposing the hard ECU (with the backing of Bill Cash!) as an alternative to the Euro. Bitterness over losing that argument to Jacques Delors combined with recriminations after Thatcher was brought down created a toxic brew.
The report about telling MPs to cancel all evening plans money to Thurs when parliament is sitting does suggest they know this could all collapse at any moment.
Mind you, I don't think Charles will want to emulate George IV and have the wife barred from the coronation.
The current price is nothing to do with the scandal.
PS From your comment I think you might be confusing the 2013 sale at £3.30 with the sale in 2015 at £4.55 which was nothing to do with Cable.
It was tantamount to asking whether we should get rid of the civil service so we could give power back to the politicians and save £350,000,000 a week.
The public are so used to parliamentary democracy they didn't belive they would be being asked a question if the answer actually mattered.
If the demonstrators trash London in the name of democracy, could someone pick me up a nice pair of trousers from M&S?
Genius from Stephen Bush.
https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/877422442737750016
Naturally, it all ends with conciliation and the tasting of the royal scones.
https://twitter.com/gavinesler/status/877439205521195008
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-40351578
It is unbelievable how inept M&S are at identifying the needs and requirements of their potential customers, the styles that are required and providing a retail experience that is conducive to getting those potential customers to purchase. While some may consider it to be science, it isn't rocket science.
Their food halls are passable at a push. What I don't understand is this modern vogue for wire baskets and trolleys that customers are encouraged to walk around with. Don't these people employ footmen in appropriate livery and at the very least personal shoppers?
As some may recall, it always amazed me that the official Leave manifesto produced by the official Leave campaign was somehow deemed not to be, er, the official Leave manifesto. But there you are; it has melted into the hot summer sun.
So that leaves us with no one who can definitively say what Leave should look like. Some say sovereignty, others immigration, others something else. But no one can say "this is what people voted for".
Under such circumstances, leaving the EU and then signing up to the single market under CJEU jurisdiction is as much leaving as any other option.
Tyndall won't be happy, but I suppose there is a silver lining to everything.
My majority depends on you
And whatever you decide to do, Arlene
And the media will expect it. The LDs are a minor party these days: they have to fight for coverage - something Farron failed to really succeed in achieving. Cable has the advantage of much better and longer-established relationships with the media - expect favourable treatment from Peston (to the extent that ITV matters in news these days, which isn't much) but again it puts the pressure on him.
On top of which, he has to lead the running of his party in Westminster and the country. Some of that - but only some of that - can be left to others but MPs and members alike look to the leader both for practical leadership and for decisions, even in the consensual Lib Dems.
It is a highly demanding role. Some will point out that Corbyn is not much younger and did very well in the last election - indeed, he did well despite ignoring many of the things he "should" have been doing as a leader. That's true, but only at the cost of having led his party to a pretty disastrous and dysfunctional position before the election, where it was exploring new polling depths. A Lib Dem leader would not have the benefit of the same coverage guaranteed a Labour one. Nor should any party plan on the basis of an equally inept Tory campaign next time.
Mike suggests that Cable might do three years in role. That timescale looks reasonable if there's an early election. However, if parliament unexpectedly goes the distance, it's likely to be difficult to find a time where Cable can safely step down - we would still be one vote from a dissolution at any time. The prospects of the oldest party leader to contest a general election since Gladstone cannot be dismissed.
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