politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Don’t laugh at us, Argentina
politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Don’t laugh at us, Argentina
The referendum has not harmed growth, investment or confidence. The *possibility* of a Corbyn Government could be a different matter.
Comments
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Welsh Labour seats by majority
1) Aberavon (Stephen Kinnock) 50.4%
2) Merthyr (Gerald Jones) 48.7%
3) Cardiff Central (Jo Stevens) 42.6%
4) Rhondda (Chris Bryant) 41.8%
5) Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd) 41.6%
6) Swansea East (Carolyn Harris) 37.4%
7) Ogmore (Chris Elmore) 37.3%
8) Blaenau Gwent (Nick Smith) 36.8%
9) Neath (Christina Rees) 33.0%
10) Islwyn (Chris Evans) 31.6%
11) Llanelli (Nia Griffiths) 29.8%
12) Caerphilly (Wayne David) 29.3%
13) Cardiff South (Stephen Doughty) 29.3%
14) Pontypridd (Owen Smith) 28.7%
15) Swansea West (Geraint Davies) 28.5%
16) Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan) 26.9%
17) Torfaen (Nick Thomas-Symonds) 26.6%
18) Newport East (Jessica Morden) 21.7%
19) Ynis Mon (Albert Owen) 14.1%
20) Newport West (Paul Flynn) 13.0%
21) Alyn and Deeside (Mark Tami) 11.7%
22) Clwyd South (Susan Elan Jones) 11.6%
23) Bridgend (Madeleine Moon) 10.9%
24) Delyn (David Hanson) 10.8%
25) Cardiff North (Anna McMorrin) 8.0% GAIN
26) Gower (Tonia Antoniazzi) 7.2% GAIN
27) Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) 6.1% GAIN
28) Wrexham (Ian Lucas) 5.2%
Welsh Labour did quite well in the Southern Valleys and held up in North Wales Labour leaning marginals.0 -
People get the government (and the politicians) that they deserve.
Good article.0 -
PENALTY!-1
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Following the Argentine path, someone must have left out six coups or golpe d'estado from 1930 -83, the disappearances and elimination of political opponents, Peronism. All came to an end thanks to Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan.0
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The prospects for most of the West don't look great.
But, who knows how things will turn out?0 -
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Perhaps Labour should have split. 85% of people voted for parties saying that they'd leave the EU (and, in the case of Labour, the Single Market). But some are using the warped logic that because neither party won a majority of seats, then this is all null and void.
By the way, Argentina has Messi. It's not all bad for them.0 -
Of course. Germany doesn't want to pony up what it ought to for the Greater Markzone.williamglenn said:0 -
Andrea - Cardiff Central should have been better for the Lib Dems. They really have been clobbered.
Isn't part of the problem here that Alastair Meeks thinks that someone like George Osborne represents the centre. To my mind Theresa May would seem to be a far more centrist politician, although undoubtedly under the influence of some fairly unhinged individuals.0 -
That's always been my understanding from the outset.williamglenn said:0 -
Scottn'Paste being the prime example.tlg86 said:Perhaps Labour should have split. 85% of people voted for parties saying that they'd leave the EU (and, in the case of Labour, the Single Market). But some are using the warped logic that because neither party won a majority of seats, then this is all null and void.
By the way, Argentina has Messi. It's not all bad for them.
Still, at least he got the Monty Hall problem right.
Oh, wait....0 -
' How can Britain get out of this oscillating cycle of destructive populism? The first step is for some serious politicians to speak out against it. And there too the prospects are bleak. The centre has been hollowed out. Brexit cleared out the Conservatives who were able and prepared to do this: David Cameron and George Osborne have left the stage. '
That will be the same Cameron and Osborne who promised no tax increase and guaranteed spending increases and never said no to funding their own vanity projects.
If you want a date as to when things started going wrong then try January 1998.
That was the last month the UK had a trade surplus.
Its been magic money tree ever since.
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Good article.
For us to follow a similar trajectory to Argentina, the public and politicians would have to lose faith in our governing institutions. I don't think that's likely but it's more possible now than it has been for a long time (I am of course setting aside the sort of serial constitutional reformers and tinkerers that you find mostly within the LDs and bits of the Labour Party).
Arguably, the cracks are already appearing. Some remainers have already lost faith in those institutions as a result of the EU referendum. A Corbyn or Corbynista led majority government turning out to be as left wing as expected would have a similar result amongst those on the right.0 -
Osborne is a neo-liberal headbanger. He thought it would be OK to get a tax cut for the middle classes through whilst cutting welfare for the disabled.FrankBooth said:Andrea - Cardiff Central should have been better for the Lib Dems. They really have been clobbered.
Isn't part of the problem here that Alastair Meeks thinks that someone like George Osborne represents the centre. To my mind Theresa May would seem to be a far more centrist politician, although undoubtedly under the influence of some fairly unhinged individuals.
Amazing how many in Soton Test brought the latter up....
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We would need several military juntas too in the meantime. In any case Argentina actually does better than the article suggests, it is a G20 nation, with a gdp per capita above the global average and has won more world cups than England has0
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It's completely fallacious to interpret the election result that way. Labour were highly ambivalent about Brexit and had 'tests' for the Brexit deal that could never be met. In any case in a representative democracy you can't treat every for every MP as a full endorsement of every dot and comma of the party's manifesto.tlg86 said:Perhaps Labour should have split. 85% of people voted for parties saying that they'd leave the EU (and, in the case of Labour, the Single Market). But some are using the warped logic that because neither party won a majority of seats, then this is all null and void.
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Electoral reform, anyone?0
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And, yet, the enlightened on here still bashed IDS for his resignation over that.Mortimer said:
Osborne is a neo-liberal headbanger. He thought it would be OK to get a tax cut for the middle classes through whilst cutting welfare for the disabled.FrankBooth said:Andrea - Cardiff Central should have been better for the Lib Dems. They really have been clobbered.
Isn't part of the problem here that Alastair Meeks thinks that someone like George Osborne represents the centre. To my mind Theresa May would seem to be a far more centrist politician, although undoubtedly under the influence of some fairly unhinged individuals.
Amazing how many in Soton Test brought the latter up....0 -
Open doors to what though ?Peter_the_Punter said:
That's always been my understanding from the outset.williamglenn said:
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Looks like we'll have to rely on the referendum result, then.williamglenn said:
It's completely fallacious to interpret the election result that way. Labour were highly ambivalent about Brexit and had 'tests' for the Brexit deal that could never be met. In any case in a representative democracy you can't treat every for every MP as a full endorsement of every dot and comma of the party's manifesto.tlg86 said:Perhaps Labour should have split. 85% of people voted for parties saying that they'd leave the EU (and, in the case of Labour, the Single Market). But some are using the warped logic that because neither party won a majority of seats, then this is all null and void.
Your side had the British government, pretty much all big business and the civil service on side. Remind me, how did that go for you?0 -
YouGov predicted LibDens to finish third in C Central. I laughed. I was wrong! Tidal wave of students here one suspects.FrankBooth said:Andrea - Cardiff Central should have been better for the Lib Dems. They really have been clobbered.
Isn't part of the problem here that Alastair Meeks thinks that someone like George Osborne represents the centre. To my mind Theresa May would seem to be a far more centrist politician, although undoubtedly under the influence of some fairly unhinged individuals.0 -
It is also not as if the rest of the west is immune to populism at the moment either, while apart from Greece populist parties have generally not taken power they are still on the rise, in Italy 5* may have taken a hit in local elections but still tops the national polls and in the US it is likely the next election will be between Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump, the aftershocks of the 2008 crash are still affecting UK politics but they are still present elsewhere as well0
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As I've pointed out before, my side wasn't on the ballot paper in the referendum. Cameron's deal was for a permanently semi-detached relationship on the basis of never joining the Euro. It's Brexit that has shattered that consensus.Mortimer said:
Looks like we'll have to rely on the referendum result, then.williamglenn said:
It's completely fallacious to interpret the election result that way. Labour were highly ambivalent about Brexit and had 'tests' for the Brexit deal that could never be met. In any case in a representative democracy you can't treat every for every MP as a full endorsement of every dot and comma of the party's manifesto.tlg86 said:Perhaps Labour should have split. 85% of people voted for parties saying that they'd leave the EU (and, in the case of Labour, the Single Market). But some are using the warped logic that because neither party won a majority of seats, then this is all null and void.
Your side had the British government, pretty much all big business and the civil service on side. Remind me, how did that go for you?0 -
I don't think Bernie will run again; he's getting too old. Warren is a possibility, but thr Dems will probably go for a conpromise candidate, maybe someone like Kirsten Gillibrand.HYUFD said:It is also not as if the rest of the west is immune to populism at the moment either, while apart from Greece populist parties have generally not taken power they are still on the rise, in Italy 5* may have taken a hit in local elections but still tops the national polls and in the US it is likely the next election will be between Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump, the aftershocks of the 2008 crash are still affecting UK politics but they are still present elsewhere as well
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Imagine if both Con and Lab had said they were going to reverse the referendum decision in their manifestos, and got 84% of the vote/480 odd seats. There is no way Brexiteers could spin that to mean its good for Brexit or that the public desire it.Mortimer said:
Scottn'Paste being the prime example.tlg86 said:Perhaps Labour should have split. 85% of people voted for parties saying that they'd leave the EU (and, in the case of Labour, the Single Market). But some are using the warped logic that because neither party won a majority of seats, then this is all null and void.
By the way, Argentina has Messi. It's not all bad for them.
Still, at least he got the Monty Hall problem right.
Oh, wait....0 -
OT, but English Strawberries are absolutely fantastic at the moment.
Combined with a nice Marlborough Sauv. B., they go down a treat on these hot evenings.0 -
You interpret every election result as proving that the voters want More Europe. The EU is your religion.williamglenn said:
It's completely fallacious to interpret the election result that way. Labour were highly ambivalent about Brexit and had 'tests' for the Brexit deal that could never be met. In any case in a representative democracy you can't treat every for every MP as a full endorsement of every dot and comma of the party's manifesto.tlg86 said:Perhaps Labour should have split. 85% of people voted for parties saying that they'd leave the EU (and, in the case of Labour, the Single Market). But some are using the warped logic that because neither party won a majority of seats, then this is all null and void.
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It would have made for an interesting election had they decided to do that!isam said:
Imagine if both Con and Lab had said they were going to reverse the referendum decision in their manifestos, and got 84% of the vote/480 odd seats. There is no way Brexiteers could spin that to mean its good for Brexit or that the public desire it.Mortimer said:
Scottn'Paste being the prime example.tlg86 said:Perhaps Labour should have split. 85% of people voted for parties saying that they'd leave the EU (and, in the case of Labour, the Single Market). But some are using the warped logic that because neither party won a majority of seats, then this is all null and void.
By the way, Argentina has Messi. It's not all bad for them.
Still, at least he got the Monty Hall problem right.
Oh, wait....0 -
Christ knows who I would have voted for.tlg86 said:
It would have made for an interesting election had they decided to do that!isam said:
Imagine if both Con and Lab had said they were going to reverse the referendum decision in their manifestos, and got 84% of the vote/480 odd seats. There is no way Brexiteers could spin that to mean its good for Brexit or that the public desire it.Mortimer said:
Scottn'Paste being the prime example.tlg86 said:Perhaps Labour should have split. 85% of people voted for parties saying that they'd leave the EU (and, in the case of Labour, the Single Market). But some are using the warped logic that because neither party won a majority of seats, then this is all null and void.
By the way, Argentina has Messi. It's not all bad for them.
Still, at least he got the Monty Hall problem right.
Oh, wait....
The party would have lost my (admittedly pitiful( donations, mind.0 -
Depressing stuff. Unfortunately, I think you're right. And no, I just can't see a way out of this mess.0
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Yeah. Cos that's why he resigned.tlg86 said:
And, yet, the enlightened on here still bashed IDS for his resignation over that.Mortimer said:
Osborne is a neo-liberal headbanger. He thought it would be OK to get a tax cut for the middle classes through whilst cutting welfare for the disabled.FrankBooth said:Andrea - Cardiff Central should have been better for the Lib Dems. They really have been clobbered.
Isn't part of the problem here that Alastair Meeks thinks that someone like George Osborne represents the centre. To my mind Theresa May would seem to be a far more centrist politician, although undoubtedly under the influence of some fairly unhinged individuals.
Amazing how many in Soton Test brought the latter up....0 -
Well it didn't exactly bring the government down, did it?midwinter said:
Yeah. Cos that's why he resigned.tlg86 said:
And, yet, the enlightened on here still bashed IDS for his resignation over that.Mortimer said:
Osborne is a neo-liberal headbanger. He thought it would be OK to get a tax cut for the middle classes through whilst cutting welfare for the disabled.FrankBooth said:Andrea - Cardiff Central should have been better for the Lib Dems. They really have been clobbered.
Isn't part of the problem here that Alastair Meeks thinks that someone like George Osborne represents the centre. To my mind Theresa May would seem to be a far more centrist politician, although undoubtedly under the influence of some fairly unhinged individuals.
Amazing how many in Soton Test brought the latter up....0 -
Anyone elese really annoyed that Perth and Perthshire North didn't turn blue because it would have made the map of Scotland look a lot neater. No? Just me? OK........0
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I find the distrust of IDS amongst party members one of the most bizarre sides of the neo-liberal elements of the Conservative party. Yes he was a hopeless leader. Yes he isn't the biggest dreamer or thinker in the world. But by-God is he a Tory through and through. And by-God I'd trust his intentions more than the identikit politicians who laughed at him.midwinter said:
Yeah. Cos that's why he resigned.tlg86 said:
And, yet, the enlightened on here still bashed IDS for his resignation over that.Mortimer said:
Osborne is a neo-liberal headbanger. He thought it would be OK to get a tax cut for the middle classes through whilst cutting welfare for the disabled.FrankBooth said:Andrea - Cardiff Central should have been better for the Lib Dems. They really have been clobbered.
Isn't part of the problem here that Alastair Meeks thinks that someone like George Osborne represents the centre. To my mind Theresa May would seem to be a far more centrist politician, although undoubtedly under the influence of some fairly unhinged individuals.
Amazing how many in Soton Test brought the latter up....0 -
I like neat electoral maps but I had money on the SNP in Perth as a saver bet.nunu said:Anyone elese really annoyed that Perth and Perthshire North didn't turn blue because it would have made the map of Scotland look a lot neater. No? Just me? OK........
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Theresa May just did a Mexican wave.0
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Other than coups, Argentina has had hyper inflation.
http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21596582-one-hundred-years-ago-argentina-was-future-what-went-wrong-century-decline0 -
If only the election was this week, it might have got a few more votes.TheScreamingEagles said:Theresa May just did a Mexican wave.
EDIT: The Egg and Bacon Brigade should take note. If our PM can join in, so can they.0 -
On topic, depressing but I fear you're accurate.0
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In the thread header Alastair is being somewhat disingenuous.
He says
"The public liked the idea of saving contributions to the EU to spend on funding NHS contributions (this mysteriously has not yet materialised) "
Why should it, when he knows full well we have not yet left the EU and will not for at least another 18 months to 2 years. As such we are still paying the same vast sums of money to the EU (£283 million a week) as we were before the referendum.0 -
While her government does a Mexican standoff.TheScreamingEagles said:Theresa May just did a Mexican wave.
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IDS was plainly not up to it, but all of his successors have had their flaws.Mortimer said:
I find the distrust of IDS amongst party members one of the most bizarre sides of the neo-liberal elements of the Conservative party. Yes he was a hopeless leader. Yes he isn't the biggest dreamer or thinker in the world. But by-God is he a Tory through and through. And by-God I'd trust his intentions more than the identikit politicians who laughed at him.midwinter said:
Yeah. Cos that's why he resigned.tlg86 said:
And, yet, the enlightened on here still bashed IDS for his resignation over that.Mortimer said:
Osborne is a neo-liberal headbanger. He thought it would be OK to get a tax cut for the middle classes through whilst cutting welfare for the disabled.FrankBooth said:Andrea - Cardiff Central should have been better for the Lib Dems. They really have been clobbered.
Isn't part of the problem here that Alastair Meeks thinks that someone like George Osborne represents the centre. To my mind Theresa May would seem to be a far more centrist politician, although undoubtedly under the influence of some fairly unhinged individuals.
Amazing how many in Soton Test brought the latter up....0 -
Bernie is making all the noises about running again, at 75 he is younger than Reagan was in the final years of his presidency and he had a 10 point lead over Trump yesterday with PPP, Warren had a 3 point lead, if he thinks he is the best candidate for the Democrats to win the rustbelt states he will run. Gillibrand is too centrist for the Democrats in their current mood, after 2016 they will not nominate another centrist who has been Senator for New Yorkrpjs said:
I don't think Bernie will run again; he's getting too old. Warren is a possibility, but thr Dems will probably go for a conpromise candidate, maybe someone like Kirsten Gillibrand.HYUFD said:It is also not as if the rest of the west is immune to populism at the moment either, while apart from Greece populist parties have generally not taken power they are still on the rise, in Italy 5* may have taken a hit in local elections but still tops the national polls and in the US it is likely the next election will be between Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump, the aftershocks of the 2008 crash are still affecting UK politics but they are still present elsewhere as well
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Re inflation and house prices
Why is CPI of 2.9% reported as a disaster but HPI of 5.6% reported as a good thing ?
House prices continuing to rise at multiples of wages increases might benefit rich economics editors but I know which inflation rate is most damaging for the country.
And while I can buy good wine for a fiver and good beer for a quid a bottle there's no CPI problem either.
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I would suggest in that instance the two parties would be hard pressed to get 50% let alone 84%tlg86 said:
It would have made for an interesting election had they decided to do that!isam said:
Imagine if both Con and Lab had said they were going to reverse the referendum decision in their manifestos, and got 84% of the vote/480 odd seats. There is no way Brexiteers could spin that to mean its good for Brexit or that the public desire it.Mortimer said:
Scottn'Paste being the prime example.tlg86 said:Perhaps Labour should have split. 85% of people voted for parties saying that they'd leave the EU (and, in the case of Labour, the Single Market). But some are using the warped logic that because neither party won a majority of seats, then this is all null and void.
By the way, Argentina has Messi. It's not all bad for them.
Still, at least he got the Monty Hall problem right.
Oh, wait....0 -
An uncharacteristically rambling article from Mr Meeks. Some thoughts:
1) Relative decline was always inevitable for Britain as the first industrial nation. Thanks to our failure to complete imperial federation and the loss of our position as the world's creditor through two world wars, we guaranteed that Britain would eventually decline to become a medium-weight European power in the same bracket as France and Germany. That had already happened by the late 60s, and I don't see anything to suggest we will suffer a further precipitous collapse.
2) Argentina fell prey to over dependence on the export of a few comodities and the sudden loss of markets for those comodities. Britain's economy has always been much more diverse, and even with the loss of much of our 'traditional' industry we are not a one trick pony.
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The referendum has not, as Meeks correctly points out, laid fertile ground for centre ground politics. But LEAVE can't take all the blame.
In GE17, charges of "We can't afford that extreme left nonsense, we'll go bust" were barely raised at the LAB manifesto and didn't really cut through when they were. Why not? Why didn't predictions of outright economic disaster carry much weight?
Maybe the voters had heard a very similar prediction from the REMAIN campaign a few months back. Maybe they found that despite predictions of immediate sky-high interest rates, deflation, a 10% recession, three million jobs lost etc, all that really happened to them was that Toblerones got gappy, everyone they knew had a job, and their tracker mortgages actually fell a few quid a month.
In such circumstances you could, when someone says "Don't vote that way, it'll ruin the economy", forgive them for not listening.0 -
I can't wait to see you spin the actual Leaving of the EU as a great moment for your one man battle to get us into a federal Europe.williamglenn said:
While her government does a Mexican standoff.TheScreamingEagles said:Theresa May just did a Mexican wave.
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He was a disloyal b*st*rdMortimer said:
I find the distrust of IDS amongst party members one of the most bizarre sides of the neo-liberal elements of the Conservative party. Yes he was a hopeless leader. Yes he isn't the biggest dreamer or thinker in the world. But by-God is he a Tory through and through. And by-God I'd trust his intentions more than the identikit politicians who laughed at him.midwinter said:
Yeah. Cos that's why he resigned.tlg86 said:
And, yet, the enlightened on here still bashed IDS for his resignation over that.Mortimer said:
Osborne is a neo-liberal headbanger. He thought it would be OK to get a tax cut for the middle classes through whilst cutting welfare for the disabled.FrankBooth said:Andrea - Cardiff Central should have been better for the Lib Dems. They really have been clobbered.
Isn't part of the problem here that Alastair Meeks thinks that someone like George Osborne represents the centre. To my mind Theresa May would seem to be a far more centrist politician, although undoubtedly under the influence of some fairly unhinged individuals.
Amazing how many in Soton Test brought the latter up....0 -
If Boris is PM after the next election and gives 350m a week to the NHS, how long can we ban Scott for? A week for every time he posted the pic?Richard_Tyndall said:In the thread header Alastair is being somewhat disingenuous.
He says
"The public liked the idea of saving contributions to the EU to spend on funding NHS contributions (this mysteriously has not yet materialised) "
Why should it, when he knows full well we have not yet left the EU and will not for at least another 18 months to 2 years. As such we are still paying the same vast sums of money to the EU (£283 million a week) as we were before the referendum.0 -
For the foreseeable future, there are no voices to speak for responsible government and against incoherent populism
What a depressing thought. Seems correct though. We punish even the appearance of anything other than incoherent populism.0 -
Away for reprogramming?calum said:0 -
You keep on fearing TSE. Get all those sleepless nights in and see if it makes anything any better. I meanwhile will be sleeping soundly in the knowledge that Brexit is good for the country.TheScreamingEagles said:On topic, depressing but I fear you're accurate.
My only concern might be whether that whining I hear is mosquitoes or unreconciled Remainers. I think I have a rolled up newspaper for both.0 -
That's risible. Choreographed resignation designed to cause maximum discomfort to remain don't quite square with the oh so honest well intentioned politician you're describing.Mortimer said:
I find the distrust of IDS amongst party members one of the most bizarre sides of the neo-liberal elements of the Conservative party. Yes he was a hopeless leader. Yes he isn't the biggest dreamer or thinker in the world. But by-God is he a Tory through and through. And by-God I'd trust his intentions more than the identikit politicians who laughed at him.midwinter said:
Yeah. Cos that's why he resigned.tlg86 said:
And, yet, the enlightened on here still bashed IDS for his resignation over that.Mortimer said:
Osborne is a neo-liberal headbanger. He thought it would be OK to get a tax cut for the middle classes through whilst cutting welfare for the disabled.FrankBooth said:Andrea - Cardiff Central should have been better for the Lib Dems. They really have been clobbered.
Isn't part of the problem here that Alastair Meeks thinks that someone like George Osborne represents the centre. To my mind Theresa May would seem to be a far more centrist politician, although undoubtedly under the influence of some fairly unhinged individuals.
Amazing how many in Soton Test brought the latter up....
As you know.0 -
Yeah, cos Maastricht was a great moment in our history that led to no further political repercussions...IanB2 said:
He was a disloyal b*st*rdMortimer said:
I find the distrust of IDS amongst party members one of the most bizarre sides of the neo-liberal elements of the Conservative party. Yes he was a hopeless leader. Yes he isn't the biggest dreamer or thinker in the world. But by-God is he a Tory through and through. And by-God I'd trust his intentions more than the identikit politicians who laughed at him.midwinter said:
Yeah. Cos that's why he resigned.tlg86 said:
And, yet, the enlightened on here still bashed IDS for his resignation over that.Mortimer said:
Osborne is a neo-liberal headbanger. He thought it would be OK to get a tax cut for the middle classes through whilst cutting welfare for the disabled.FrankBooth said:Andrea - Cardiff Central should have been better for the Lib Dems. They really have been clobbered.
Isn't part of the problem here that Alastair Meeks thinks that someone like George Osborne represents the centre. To my mind Theresa May would seem to be a far more centrist politician, although undoubtedly under the influence of some fairly unhinged individuals.
Amazing how many in Soton Test brought the latter up....0 -
He put principles before party. We need more like him not less. Loyalty to an intrinsically corrupt system - which applies to all the parties - is nothing to be proud of.IanB2 said:
He was a disloyal b*st*rdMortimer said:
I find the distrust of IDS amongst party members one of the most bizarre sides of the neo-liberal elements of the Conservative party. Yes he was a hopeless leader. Yes he isn't the biggest dreamer or thinker in the world. But by-God is he a Tory through and through. And by-God I'd trust his intentions more than the identikit politicians who laughed at him.midwinter said:
Yeah. Cos that's why he resigned.tlg86 said:
And, yet, the enlightened on here still bashed IDS for his resignation over that.Mortimer said:
Osborne is a neo-liberal headbanger. He thought it would be OK to get a tax cut for the middle classes through whilst cutting welfare for the disabled.FrankBooth said:Andrea - Cardiff Central should have been better for the Lib Dems. They really have been clobbered.
Isn't part of the problem here that Alastair Meeks thinks that someone like George Osborne represents the centre. To my mind Theresa May would seem to be a far more centrist politician, although undoubtedly under the influence of some fairly unhinged individuals.
Amazing how many in Soton Test brought the latter up....0 -
On one side we have an ex-chancellor who has flounced off, on the other side we have a man who devoted a decade of his life to reducing poverty in a fair way, and who is still fighting the good fight.midwinter said:
That's risible. Choreographed resignation designed to cause maximum discomfort to remain don't quite square with the oh so honest well intentioned politician you're describing.Mortimer said:
I find the distrust of IDS amongst party members one of the most bizarre sides of the neo-liberal elements of the Conservative party. Yes he was a hopeless leader. Yes he isn't the biggest dreamer or thinker in the world. But by-God is he a Tory through and through. And by-God I'd trust his intentions more than the identikit politicians who laughed at him.midwinter said:
Yeah. Cos that's why he resigned.tlg86 said:
And, yet, the enlightened on here still bashed IDS for his resignation over that.Mortimer said:
Osborne is a neo-liberal headbanger. He thought it would be OK to get a tax cut for the middle classes through whilst cutting welfare for the disabled.FrankBooth said:Andrea - Cardiff Central should have been better for the Lib Dems. They really have been clobbered.
Isn't part of the problem here that Alastair Meeks thinks that someone like George Osborne represents the centre. To my mind Theresa May would seem to be a far more centrist politician, although undoubtedly under the influence of some fairly unhinged individuals.
Amazing how many in Soton Test brought the latter up....
As you know.
I know who I'd trust more.0 -
He's stupid and treacherous. A poor mix.Mortimer said:
Yeah, cos Maastricht was a great moment in our history that led to no further political repercussions...IanB2 said:
He was a disloyal b*st*rdMortimer said:
I find the distrust of IDS amongst party members one of the most bizarre sides of the neo-liberal elements of the Conservative party. Yes he was a hopeless leader. Yes he isn't the biggest dreamer or thinker in the world. But by-God is he a Tory through and through. And by-God I'd trust his intentions more than the identikit politicians who laughed at him.midwinter said:
Yeah. Cos that's why he resigned.tlg86 said:
And, yet, the enlightened on here still bashed IDS for his resignation over that.Mortimer said:
Osborne is a neo-liberal headbanger. He thought it would be OK to get a tax cut for the middle classes through whilst cutting welfare for the disabled.FrankBooth said:Andrea - Cardiff Central should have been better for the Lib Dems. They really have been clobbered.
Isn't part of the problem here that Alastair Meeks thinks that someone like George Osborne represents the centre. To my mind Theresa May would seem to be a far more centrist politician, although undoubtedly under the influence of some fairly unhinged individuals.
Amazing how many in Soton Test brought the latter up....0 -
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Both Messrs Atlee and Churchill promised that we could have a welfare state and be a world power. How did that turn out?kle4 said:For the foreseeable future, there are no voices to speak for responsible government and against incoherent populism
What a depressing thought. Seems correct though. We punish even the appearance of anything other than incoherent populism.
There is nothing new about over promising and under delivering. That is a feature of all governments, not just democracies 'suffering' from populism.0 -
There's history, even David Davis off the record is reported to think IDS is a traitorous bastard.Mortimer said:
I find the distrust of IDS amongst party members one of the most bizarre sides of the neo-liberal elements of the Conservative party. Yes he was a hopeless leader. Yes he isn't the biggest dreamer or thinker in the world. But by-God is he a Tory through and through. And by-God I'd trust his intentions more than the identikit politicians who laughed at him.midwinter said:
Yeah. Cos that's why he resigned.tlg86 said:
And, yet, the enlightened on here still bashed IDS for his resignation over that.Mortimer said:
Osborne is a neo-liberal headbanger. He thought it would be OK to get a tax cut for the middle classes through whilst cutting welfare for the disabled.FrankBooth said:Andrea - Cardiff Central should have been better for the Lib Dems. They really have been clobbered.
Isn't part of the problem here that Alastair Meeks thinks that someone like George Osborne represents the centre. To my mind Theresa May would seem to be a far more centrist politician, although undoubtedly under the influence of some fairly unhinged individuals.
Amazing how many in Soton Test brought the latter up....
Goes back to the Maastricht debate/votes.
There was collusion between Tory rebels and Labour whips to try and defeat the government and Davis was in the whips office and IDS was one of the ringleaders.0 -
Nothing is ever good no matter its form or how well managed it is, that's ideology talking. If things are badly handled, then it won't be good for the country in a practical sense. If it is well handled, it will be good for the country.Richard_Tyndall said:
You keep on fearing TSE. Get all those sleepless nights in and see if it makes anything any better. I meanwhile will be sleeping soundly in the knowledge that Brexit is good for the country.TheScreamingEagles said:On topic, depressing but I fear you're accurate.
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Yes it is - but there are ebbs and flows of it, and we appear to be at a flow.RoyalBlue said:
Both Messrs Atlee and Churchill promised that we could have a welfare state and be a world power. How did that turn out?kle4 said:For the foreseeable future, there are no voices to speak for responsible government and against incoherent populism
What a depressing thought. Seems correct though. We punish even the appearance of anything other than incoherent populism.
There is nothing new about over promising and under delivering. That is a feature of all governments, not just democracies 'suffering' from populism.0 -
Matthew Parris takes a pop at the snooty, condescending elites who ran Theresa's campaign. I must say, he has a point.
As the campaign kicked off, how many times did you read the winking advice from a political commentator that ‘if you’re already sick of reading about Mrs May’s “strong and stable leadership” and how this is a choice about who negotiates Brexit, Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn, then it’s working’? Or even worse, the nudge-nudge suggestion that the mindless repetition of crude slogans isn’t aimed at people like you or me, but the poor old hoi polloi whose attention span for politics is rather limited?
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/06/theresa-may-has-been-diminished-by-this-election-campaign/0 -
If the rebels had won in the early 90s we'd have had Portillo as PM by 2001. That'd have been a far better situation!TheScreamingEagles said:
There's history, even David Davis off the record is reported to think IDS is a traitorous bastard.Mortimer said:
I find the distrust of IDS amongst party members one of the most bizarre sides of the neo-liberal elements of the Conservative party. Yes he was a hopeless leader. Yes he isn't the biggest dreamer or thinker in the world. But by-God is he a Tory through and through. And by-God I'd trust his intentions more than the identikit politicians who laughed at him.midwinter said:
Yeah. Cos that's why he resigned.tlg86 said:
And, yet, the enlightened on here still bashed IDS for his resignation over that.Mortimer said:
Osborne is a neo-liberal headbanger. He thought it would be OK to get a tax cut for the middle classes through whilst cutting welfare for the disabled.FrankBooth said:Andrea - Cardiff Central should have been better for the Lib Dems. They really have been clobbered.
Isn't part of the problem here that Alastair Meeks thinks that someone like George Osborne represents the centre. To my mind Theresa May would seem to be a far more centrist politician, although undoubtedly under the influence of some fairly unhinged individuals.
Amazing how many in Soton Test brought the latter up....
Goes back to the Maastricht debate/votes.
There was collusion between Tory rebels and Labour whips to try and defeat the government and Davis was in the whips office and IDS was one of the ringleaders.0 -
The other thing Alastair ignores in his thread header is that Argentina's problems stem primarily from politics not economics. It has never been a stable liberal democracy and the acceptance of basic democratic systems has never really taken root. Just go and look at the succession of political crisis that have enveloped the country back way before Alastair's starting date of 1913. I am afraid the comparison simply does not hold water.
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Yes please. End the random government generator.augustus_carp said:Electoral reform, anyone?
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I give up. When you're defending IDS and May you're going to be on the wrong side of any argument.Mortimer said:
On one side we have an ex-chancellor who has flounced off, on the other side we have a man who devoted a decade of his life to reducing poverty in a fair way, and who is still fighting the good fight.midwinter said:
That's risible. Choreographed resignation designed to cause maximum discomfort to remain don't quite square with the oh so honest well intentioned politician you're describing.Mortimer said:
I find the distrust of IDS amongst party members one of the most bizarre sides of the neo-liberal elements of the Conservative party. Yes he was a hopeless leader. Yes he isn't the biggest dreamer or thinker in the world. But by-God is he a Tory through and through. And by-God I'd trust his intentions more than the identikit politicians who laughed at him.midwinter said:
Yeah. Cos that's why he resigned.tlg86 said:
And, yet, the enlightened on here still bashed IDS for his resignation over that.Mortimer said:
Osborne is a neo-liberal headbanger. He thought it would be OK to get a tax cut for the middle classes through whilst cutting welfare for the disabled.FrankBooth said:Andrea - Cardiff Central should have been better for the Lib Dems. They really have been clobbered.
Isn't part of the problem here that Alastair Meeks thinks that someone like George Osborne represents the centre. To my mind Theresa May would seem to be a far more centrist politician, although undoubtedly under the influence of some fairly unhinged individuals.
Amazing how many in Soton Test brought the latter up....
As you know.
I know who I'd trust more.
Is all.0 -
Labour were so ambivalent they made it clear at every opportunity that they wanted us not only to leave the EU but the Single Market as well. Corbyn actually wants a harder Brexit than I do.williamglenn said:
It's completely fallacious to interpret the election result that way. Labour were highly ambivalent about Brexit and had 'tests' for the Brexit deal that could never be met. In any case in a representative democracy you can't treat every for every MP as a full endorsement of every dot and comma of the party's manifesto.tlg86 said:Perhaps Labour should have split. 85% of people voted for parties saying that they'd leave the EU (and, in the case of Labour, the Single Market). But some are using the warped logic that because neither party won a majority of seats, then this is all null and void.
0 -
Ad hom much?midwinter said:
I give up. When you're defending IDS and May you're going to be on the wrong side of any argument.Mortimer said:
On one side we have an ex-chancellor who has flounced off, on the other side we have a man who devoted a decade of his life to reducing poverty in a fair way, and who is still fighting the good fight.midwinter said:
That's risible. Choreographed resignation designed to cause maximum discomfort to remain don't quite square with the oh so honest well intentioned politician you're describing.Mortimer said:
I find the distrust of IDS amongst party members one of the most bizarre sides of the neo-liberal elements of the Conservative party. Yes he was a hopeless leader. Yes he isn't the biggest dreamer or thinker in the world. But by-God is he a Tory through and through. And by-God I'd trust his intentions more than the identikit politicians who laughed at him.midwinter said:
Yeah. Cos that's why he resigned.tlg86 said:
And, yet, the enlightened on here still bashed IDS for his resignation over that.Mortimer said:
Osborne is a neo-liberal headbanger. He thought it would be OK to get a tax cut for the middle classes through whilst cutting welfare for the disabled.FrankBooth said:Andrea - Cardiff Central should have been better for the Lib Dems. They really have been clobbered.
Isn't part of the problem here that Alastair Meeks thinks that someone like George Osborne represents the centre. To my mind Theresa May would seem to be a far more centrist politician, although undoubtedly under the influence of some fairly unhinged individuals.
Amazing how many in Soton Test brought the latter up....
As you know.
I know who I'd trust more.
Is all.0 -
Interesting header, thought-provoking, but a tad hysterical.
It may be poor taste to say so, but the fact is that Latin people are rubbish at founding stable and prosperous colonies. Anglo Saxons run colonies better. Anglo Saxons create countries that other people want to live in.
And populism is only incoherent in the sense that "what people want" is incoherent. There's lots of different people. They want different stuff. Whether what a particular individual wants can be labelled "populist" or not is largely a matter of whether it's fashionable. Not much more than that.
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Which is what?Scott_P said:0 -
Richard, 80% of my day job is spent prepping for Brexit.Richard_Tyndall said:
You keep on fearing TSE. Get all those sleepless nights in and see if it makes anything any better. I meanwhile will be sleeping soundly in the knowledge that Brexit is good for the country.TheScreamingEagles said:On topic, depressing but I fear you're accurate.
My only concern might be whether that whining I hear is mosquitoes or unreconciled Remainers. I think I have a rolled up newspaper for both.
I'm staggered at how uninformed and unprepared our government and some MPs are for Brexit.
We're 77 days in to a 730 day process, bugger all has happened, 49 days of those 77 days have been spent focusing on the needless election.
We're likely to fall out of the EU with no deal, with WTO terms and if that doesn't terrify you, then you're even more uninformed than I thought you were.0 -
0
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Has Laura K landed a job as May's personal PR in this reshuffle?0
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False claims re control over house price inflation.another_richard said:Re inflation and house prices
Why is CPI of 2.9% reported as a disaster but HPI of 5.6% reported as a good thing ?
House prices continuing to rise at multiples of wages increases might benefit rich economics editors but I know which inflation rate is most damaging for the country.
And while I can buy good wine for a fiver and good beer for a quid a bottle there's no CPI problem either.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflationandpriceindices/datasets/housepriceindexmonthlyquarterlytables1to190 -
Brexit means BrexitStark_Dawning said:Which is what?
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Jeez, how many UKIP MEPs have been involved in stuff like this.Scott_P said:
Probably just as well we've only ever had 2 UKIP MPs0 -
What William means is that actually, 85% were voting against Brexit, and in favour of joining the Euro. Even though they didn't realise it.Richard_Tyndall said:
Labour were so ambivalent they made it clear at every opportunity that they wanted us not only to leave the EU but the Single Market as well. Corbyn actually wants a harder Brexit than I do.williamglenn said:
It's completely fallacious to interpret the election result that way. Labour were highly ambivalent about Brexit and had 'tests' for the Brexit deal that could never be met. In any case in a representative democracy you can't treat every for every MP as a full endorsement of every dot and comma of the party's manifesto.tlg86 said:Perhaps Labour should have split. 85% of people voted for parties saying that they'd leave the EU (and, in the case of Labour, the Single Market). But some are using the warped logic that because neither party won a majority of seats, then this is all null and void.
0 -
Underpants on head, pencils up nostrils, wibbleStark_Dawning said:
Which is what?Scott_P said:0 -
Kylian Mbappe will be the best player in the world by 2020 I reckon0
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It all depends on how bad one considers things to be now while we are still inside.kle4 said:
Nothing is ever good no matter its form or how well managed it is, that's ideology talking. If things are badly handled, then it won't be good for the country in a practical sense. If it is well handled, it will be good for the country.Richard_Tyndall said:
You keep on fearing TSE. Get all those sleepless nights in and see if it makes anything any better. I meanwhile will be sleeping soundly in the knowledge that Brexit is good for the country.TheScreamingEagles said:On topic, depressing but I fear you're accurate.
0 -
Again you attack someone for putting principles and country before party. Which reflects very badly on you and not at all badly on IDS.TheScreamingEagles said:
There's history, even David Davis off the record is reported to think IDS is a traitorous bastard.Mortimer said:
I find the distrust of IDS amongst party members one of the most bizarre sides of the neo-liberal elements of the Conservative party. Yes he was a hopeless leader. Yes he isn't the biggest dreamer or thinker in the world. But by-God is he a Tory through and through. And by-God I'd trust his intentions more than the identikit politicians who laughed at him.midwinter said:
Yeah. Cos that's why he resigned.tlg86 said:
And, yet, the enlightened on here still bashed IDS for his resignation over that.Mortimer said:
Osborne is a neo-liberal headbanger. He thought it would be OK to get a tax cut for the middle classes through whilst cutting welfare for the disabled.FrankBooth said:Andrea - Cardiff Central should have been better for the Lib Dems. They really have been clobbered.
Isn't part of the problem here that Alastair Meeks thinks that someone like George Osborne represents the centre. To my mind Theresa May would seem to be a far more centrist politician, although undoubtedly under the influence of some fairly unhinged individuals.
Amazing how many in Soton Test brought the latter up....
Goes back to the Maastricht debate/votes.
There was collusion between Tory rebels and Labour whips to try and defeat the government and Davis was in the whips office and IDS was one of the ringleaders.0 -
IDS was newly elected in 1992, he was certainly not one of the Maastricht rebel ringleaders.TheScreamingEagles said:
There's history, even David Davis off the record is reported to think IDS is a traitorous bastard.Mortimer said:
I find the distrust of IDS amongst party members one of the most bizarre sides of the neo-liberal elements of the Conservative party. Yes he was a hopeless leader. Yes he isn't the biggest dreamer or thinker in the world. But by-God is he a Tory through and through. And by-God I'd trust his intentions more than the identikit politicians who laughed at him.midwinter said:
Yeah. Cos that's why he resigned.tlg86 said:
And, yet, the enlightened on here still bashed IDS for his resignation over that.Mortimer said:
Osborne is a neo-liberal headbanger. He thought it would be OK to get a tax cut for the middle classes through whilst cutting welfare for the disabled.FrankBooth said:Andrea - Cardiff Central should have been better for the Lib Dems. They really have been clobbered.
Isn't part of the problem here that Alastair Meeks thinks that someone like George Osborne represents the centre. To my mind Theresa May would seem to be a far more centrist politician, although undoubtedly under the influence of some fairly unhinged individuals.
Amazing how many in Soton Test brought the latter up....
Goes back to the Maastricht debate/votes.
There was collusion between Tory rebels and Labour whips to try and defeat the government and Davis was in the whips office and IDS was one of the ringleaders.
This shows what a minor role IDS played:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maastricht_Rebels
10 Conservative MPs had the whip withdrawn
18 more Conservative MPs listed as also voting against the government
16 more Conservative MPs including IDS listed as abstaining0 -
Helmer ran as a candidate in Leics South, and appeared at the Leicester Mercury hustings representing UKIP. During this he revealed that his partner was Indian.Scott_P said:0 -
May played her for a fool with the surprise election. It must have been very embarrassing.Bobajob_PB said:Has Laura K landed a job as May's personal PR in this reshuffle?
I'm guessing she's lined up enhanced access or thinks she's in line for *exclusive* brexit scoops or something - to make up for it.
On the tweet (and similar), I don't like the overly personal swipes directed at May for non-political mexican wavey type stuff.
She's only human.
Jeremy Corbyn's hobby is drain covers ffs.0 -
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Ring leaders in dealing with Labour whips.another_richard said:
IDS was newly elected in 1992, he was certainly not one of the Maastricht rebel ringleaders.TheScreamingEagles said:
There's history, even David Davis off the record is reported to think IDS is a traitorous bastard.Mortimer said:
I find the distrust of IDS amongst party members one of the most bizarre sides of the neo-liberal elements of the Conservative party. Yes he was a hopeless leader. Yes he isn't the biggest dreamer or thinker in the world. But by-God is he a Tory through and through. And by-God I'd trust his intentions more than the identikit politicians who laughed at him.midwinter said:
Yeah. Cos that's why he resigned.tlg86 said:
And, yet, the enlightened on here still bashed IDS for his resignation over that.Mortimer said:
Osborne is a neo-liberal headbanger. He thought it would be OK to get a tax cut for the middle classes through whilst cutting welfare for the disabled.FrankBooth said:Andrea - Cardiff Central should have been better for the Lib Dems. They really have been clobbered.
Isn't part of the problem here that Alastair Meeks thinks that someone like George Osborne represents the centre. To my mind Theresa May would seem to be a far more centrist politician, although undoubtedly under the influence of some fairly unhinged individuals.
Amazing how many in Soton Test brought the latter up....
Goes back to the Maastricht debate/votes.
There was collusion between Tory rebels and Labour whips to try and defeat the government and Davis was in the whips office and IDS was one of the ringleaders.
This shows what a minor role IDS played:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maastricht_Rebels
10 Conservative MPs had the whip withdrawn
18 more Conservative MPs listed as also voting against the government
16 more Conservative MPs including IDS listed as abstaining0 -
Thinking about Britain's position in the world in 1914 and today, it has improved in two very significant ways:
1) There is no prospect of Europe being united under a single power that will threaten us militarily.
2) There is no prospect of a united Europe threatening Britain with a revised Continental system (even under the dreaded WTO option).
We have much to be thankful for, even if the Union Flag no longer flies over the world's oceans.0 -
The trouble is that you and your kind have spent so long attacking any form of Brexit that to be blunt we no longer believe you. We believe you to be dishonest and willing to say and do absolutely anything to try and reverse the result of the referendum.TheScreamingEagles said:
Richard, 80% of my day job is spent prepping for Brexit.Richard_Tyndall said:
You keep on fearing TSE. Get all those sleepless nights in and see if it makes anything any better. I meanwhile will be sleeping soundly in the knowledge that Brexit is good for the country.TheScreamingEagles said:On topic, depressing but I fear you're accurate.
My only concern might be whether that whining I hear is mosquitoes or unreconciled Remainers. I think I have a rolled up newspaper for both.
I'm staggered at how uninformed and unprepared our government and some MPs are for Brexit.
We're 77 days in to a 730 day process, bugger all has happened, 49 days of those 77 days have been spent focusing on the needless election.
We're likely to fall out of the EU with no deal, with WTO terms and if that doesn't terrify you, then you're even more uninformed than I thought you were.
You cried wolf so very often that you simply have no credibility left.0 -
Why is everyone thinking people voted for Labour because of 'bungs'.
Maybe, just maybe, they liked Corbyn and his vision. Not enough to win, but the Tories are in complete SELF INFLICTED chaos, whilst labour seem stromg amd stable in comparision.
If they want to hold a referendum or an election, they should do a better job helping people in this country.
May seems to intensely dislike the common person. Corbyn doest. People can see and sense these things you know0 -
Sticking to hard Brexit is literally idiotic. She's a fool.0
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Now that we have a hung parliament and the DUP hold the balance of power and back a softer Brexit inevitably a hard Brexit is dead even if May wanted it as she cannot get it through Parliament, fudged Brexit is most likelyScott_P said:0
