Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Options

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » It is organisation more than BREXIT that is driving the Lib De

13»

Comments

  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,147
    edited April 2017

    Well...

    He doesn't want Macron to win because it will render his Brexit analysis obsolete.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,002
    edited April 2017

    Well...

    He doesn't want Macron to win because it will render his Brexit analysis obsolete.
    Not another hack pegging in natural statistical variation to fit a shitty narrative again ?
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,631
    chestnut said:

    Andrew Neil‏Verified account @afneil 2h2 hours ago

    What has neutral Sweden done to deserve this?
    Never in Mid-East war
    Non-Nato
    Most welcoming of Muslim refugees.
    Massive foreign aid

    Oddly naive view from Neil, rarely. There's no such thing as deserving or undeserving when it comes to Islamic terrorism. We are all deserving in the eye's of these terrorists because we aren't Muslims and they are armed with clear cut passages from the Koran which encourages the perpetration of violence against non-Muslims. It is the basic and most simple reason why Islam is not compatible with the west and why minorities in Muslim majority countries are treated like shit.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Matthew Goodwin makes many good points but it is pretty poor for him to fail to point out, because it doesn't suit his agenda, that Marine Le Pen's decline in the same time frame is at least as significant as Emmanuel Macron's. It looks more like outside candidates polling better with increased attention than any Macron-specific defects.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,631

    Matthew Goodwin makes many good points but it is pretty poor for him to fail to point out, because it doesn't suit his agenda, that Marine Le Pen's decline in the same time frame is at least as significant as Emmanuel Macron's. It looks more like outside candidates polling better with increased attention than any Macron-specific defects.
    The race that was supposed to be the right facing off against the far right could be the left facing off against the far left. Le Pen may not even make the second round if she continues to decline and Melenchon keeps rising.
  • Options
    Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307
    edited April 2017

    Y0kel said:

    malcolmg said:

    Y0kel said:

    The Russians know more about the precise details of that chemical weapons attack than theyd like to let on that takes us well beyond just a 'didnt happen' denial.

    For starters, was it regular Sarin?

    You don't say, come out of the closet Tapestry all is forgiven.
    Variations on original formulations are not unusual.
    That's interesting, thanks. Might it even be possible to 'fingerprint' it to tell which lab it might have been made in?
    Very difficult regarding origination because though there are different methods around manufacture, purity and preservation, you would have to have very good access and sampling, for example fragments of the device used to carry it. If you did have all the sources and analysis to hand you certainly can understand something of it.

    My thinking is a bit more broad, as in how good quality was it, was it the only chemical weapon used. What we do know is that the bombed airbase had some very interesting containers and I doubt very much the Russians didn't know about it given they are an important part of the running of that base. I suppose they could be large volumes of jet fighter washing fluid.

  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,002
    MaxPB said:

    Matthew Goodwin makes many good points but it is pretty poor for him to fail to point out, because it doesn't suit his agenda, that Marine Le Pen's decline in the same time frame is at least as significant as Emmanuel Macron's. It looks more like outside candidates polling better with increased attention than any Macron-specific defects.
    The race that was supposed to be the right facing off against the far right could be the left facing off against the far left. Le Pen may not even make the second round if she continues to decline and Melenchon keeps rising.
    Well if it is Macron-Melenchon at that point I've won :p

    I'd expect Macron to win that particular bout handily though
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,288
    Roger said:

    GeoffM said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Roger said:

    “…But while Brexit may motivate many Lib Dems, my hunch is that what matters at least as much is something generally overlooked by us chattering Westminster types: organisation."

    Compleely anecdotally..........I was speaking to the most archetypal Tory I know who claims to have never voted other than Tory in his life and he's even been known to go to the odd cocktail Party at the invitation of his local Tory MP.....

    ......Well he's now so angry about Brexit that he's voting Lib Dem. I know anecdotes are anecdotes but we all know weathervanes and if this guy is going Lib Dem then the tectonic plates have shifted and the polls are missing it.

    Hard to see the logic, really. The Tories campaigned for Remain; if his beef is that they made a pretty poor fist of it, the same is true of the Lib Dems.

    Let me hazard a couple of guesses: despite being on cocktail party terms with his Tory MP, he did not ring up the MP pre-referendum and offer his services to campaign for a Remain vote, and despite sounding a well-heeled sort of chap he did not write out a cheque for, ooh, £25000 or £50000 to the Remain campaign.

    But he is still JOLLY ANGRY.
    ...and completely fictional.

    The inside of Roger's head must look like a Max Ernst creation.
    If only the inside of my head looked like a Max Ernst creation I'd never need to go out. It reminds me of Steve Martin's line to Diane Keaton 'If I had your breasts I'd just spend all day playing with them"
    Sad to think that he may indeed now have Diane Keaton's breasts, but no longer the desire to play with them.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @georgeeaton: Ed Miliband says he doesn't regret decision to oppose intervention in Syria during Last Leg appearance.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,054
    Scott_P said:

    @georgeeaton: Ed Miliband says he doesn't regret decision to oppose intervention in Syria during Last Leg appearance.

    Cannot face up to one of his more shameful episodes. Not the failure to intervene - that, if sincerely held, is a position that is defendable. But pretending that his actions around that time were based around a desire to oppose intervention in general, rather than a political argument about when and how. Presenting as a principled anti-interventionist stance, when the stance was much more complicated than that.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,170
    edited April 2017
    MaxPB said:

    Matthew Goodwin makes many good points but it is pretty poor for him to fail to point out, because it doesn't suit his agenda, that Marine Le Pen's decline in the same time frame is at least as significant as Emmanuel Macron's. It looks more like outside candidates polling better with increased attention than any Macron-specific defects.
    The race that was supposed to be the right facing off against the far right could be the left facing off against the far left. Le Pen may not even make the second round if she continues to decline and Melenchon keeps rising.
    No it won't, today's IFOP has Le Pen first, Macron second, Fillon third and Melenchon still fourth (though will be interesting to see if Le Pen and Melenchon's opposition to the US strikes and Macron and Fillon's support for them has any impact)

    Le Pen 24.5%
    Macron 23.5%
    Fillon 18.5%
    Melenchon 17%
    Hamon 9.5%
    Dupont-Aignan 4.5%


    http://dataviz.ifop.com:8080/IFOP_ROLLING/IFOP_07-04-2017.pdf
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,170
    edited April 2017
    AndyJS said:
    It won't be, they are both fishing in the same pool of anti globalisation, anti corporation, isolationist voters
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,208
    Woman on Sky News paper review trying desperately to oppose the US airstrikes in Syria. Dan Hodges being very fair his appraisal of the situation.
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 31,020

    Danny565 said:

    Danny565 said:

    AndyJS said:

    "Labour MPs ‘appalled’ at Corbyn’s attack on Syria airstrikes

    Labour faced another day of turmoil after Jeremy Corbyn condemned the missile strikes in Syria to the disgust of many of his parliamentary colleagues."

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/labour-mps-appalled-at-corbyn-attack-on-syria-airstrikes-wcfkkbsdk

    Slow hand-clap for the PLP. Just at the time the membership was MAYBE starting to reconsider support for Corbyn, they go and remind everyone why they were so irritated with the PLP (and hence why Corbyn got in) in the first place.
    They were irritated with the PLP for deeming the use of chemical weapons to be crossing a red line?
    No, because their mantra always seems to be "bomb first, think later".

    I'm yet to see any explanation of how toppling Assad (which is surely the intention of strikes like this) would be a satisfactory outcome. Do people really want ISIS to be able to take over that country? Obviously the idea of "moderate" rebels taking over is for the birds, just as it was in 2013.
    Syria is repeatedly using chemical weapons, which have been banned by convention for many decades. Worse, he's using them against civilians. The international community (via the UN) is doing f'all about it.

    This is important. One of the reasons countries like Syria felt able to develop such weapons was because of the west's craven attitude towards Saddam's use of them in the 1980s. They are cheaper and easier to develop than weaponised nukes (except for some biological weapons), and can be very effective in area denial. If you're a sh*t like Assad and there are not going to be any penalties for having chemical weapons, why not have them?

    From a purely selfish point of view, the more states that have chemical weapons, the more likely they are to be used against us. Precedents are being set.

    Incidentally, it also makes a joke of Security Council resolution 2118
    It was not just a craven attitude by the West it was complicity on a grand scale. Saddam was 'our man' against those nasty Iranians. As such we were quite content to let him kill tens of thousands of Iranians and Kurds with chemical weapons used on dozens of occasions on a massive scale. The US even went so far as to try to pretend that it was the Iranians who used the weapons at Halabja not the Iraqis. Of course as soon as Saddam stopped being 'our man' then we started on the campaign about what a wicked person he was to have used chemical weapons. Now we do the same with Syria because Assad is a bad man and not one of ours. The hypocrisy is sickening.
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:

    @georgeeaton: Ed Miliband says he doesn't regret decision to oppose intervention in Syria during Last Leg appearance.

    Cannot face up to one of his more shameful episodes. Not the failure to intervene - that, if sincerely held, is a position that is defendable. But pretending that his actions around that time were based around a desire to oppose intervention in general, rather than a political argument about when and how. Presenting as a principled anti-interventionist stance, when the stance was much more complicated than that.
    And reneging on a commitment to the PM. That was unforgivable in a matter as grave as this.

    If (like Ken Clark, and some Labour MPs) he had weighed up the risks and decided that on balance the risks of action outweighed the risks of inaction, that would have been fine. But it was nothing like that, it was pure moral weakness.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    And reneging on a commitment to the PM. That was unforgivable in a matter as grave as this.

    If (like Ken Clark, and some Labour MPs) he had weighed up the risks and decided that on balance the risks of action outweighed the risks of inaction, that would have been fine. But it was nothing like that, it was pure moral weakness.

    No, no, no. Apparently not..

    https://twitter.com/lucympowell/status/850461226635329536
  • Options
    Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited April 2017

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:

    @georgeeaton: Ed Miliband says he doesn't regret decision to oppose intervention in Syria during Last Leg appearance.

    Cannot face up to one of his more shameful episodes. Not the failure to intervene - that, if sincerely held, is a position that is defendable. But pretending that his actions around that time were based around a desire to oppose intervention in general, rather than a political argument about when and how. Presenting as a principled anti-interventionist stance, when the stance was much more complicated than that.
    And reneging on a commitment to the PM. That was unforgivable in a matter as grave as this.

    If (like Ken Clark, and some Labour MPs) he had weighed up the risks and decided that on balance the risks of action outweighed the risks of inaction, that would have been fine. But it was nothing like that, it was pure moral weakness.
    Was there ever a trustworthy source which stated that Miliband gave Cameron an actual *commitment*? I remember Iain Martin saying at the time that how it really went down was that Miliband gave some of his standard meaningless non-committal waffle ("I don't rule it out in principle but let's make sure we meet all these conditions, blahblahblah") when he was asked privately, and Cameron just selectively heard what he wanted to hear.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,460
  • Options
    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    MaxPB said:

    chestnut said:

    Andrew Neil‏Verified account @afneil 2h2 hours ago

    What has neutral Sweden done to deserve this?
    Never in Mid-East war
    Non-Nato
    Most welcoming of Muslim refugees.
    Massive foreign aid

    Oddly naive view from Neil, rarely. There's no such thing as deserving or undeserving when it comes to Islamic terrorism. We are all deserving in the eye's of these terrorists because we aren't Muslims and they are armed with clear cut passages from the Koran which encourages the perpetration of violence against non-Muslims. It is the basic and most simple reason why Islam is not compatible with the west and why minorities in Muslim majority countries are treated like shit.
    What he said
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,054
    edited April 2017

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:

    @georgeeaton: Ed Miliband says he doesn't regret decision to oppose intervention in Syria during Last Leg appearance.

    Cannot face up to one of his more shameful episodes. Not the failure to intervene - that, if sincerely held, is a position that is defendable. But pretending that his actions around that time were based around a desire to oppose intervention in general, rather than a political argument about when and how. Presenting as a principled anti-interventionist stance, when the stance was much more complicated than that.
    And reneging on a commitment to the PM. That was unforgivable in a matter as grave as this.

    If (like Ken Clark, and some Labour MPs) he had weighed up the risks and decided that on balance the risks of action outweighed the risks of inaction, that would have been fine. But it was nothing like that, it was pure moral weakness.
    There may be disagreement about whether there was such a commitment. But given the amendment we know Ed M was in favour of intervention of some kind in principle, but since it failed and the government motion failed, he has pretended that he was against any intervention.
  • Options
    BudGBudG Posts: 711
    AndyJS said:
    68-32 to Melenchon according to the last head to head poll done on that scenario

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_French_presidential_election,_2017
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:

    @georgeeaton: Ed Miliband says he doesn't regret decision to oppose intervention in Syria during Last Leg appearance.

    Cannot face up to one of his more shameful episodes. Not the failure to intervene - that, if sincerely held, is a position that is defendable. But pretending that his actions around that time were based around a desire to oppose intervention in general, rather than a political argument about when and how. Presenting as a principled anti-interventionist stance, when the stance was much more complicated than that.
    And reneging on a commitment to the PM. That was unforgivable in a matter as grave as this.

    If (like Ken Clark, and some Labour MPs) he had weighed up the risks and decided that on balance the risks of action outweighed the risks of inaction, that would have been fine. But it was nothing like that, it was pure moral weakness.
    There may be disagreement about whether there was such a commitment. But given the amendment we know Ed M was in favour of intervention of some kind in principle, but since it failed and the government motion failed, he has pretended that he was against any intervention.
    Exactly, Miliband's position was completely untenable and transparently dishonest. With the one exception of Blair's dodgy dossier, I can't think of anything as disgraceful in UK parliamentary politics in the 50 years* I've been following politics

    * (I was a precocious child!)
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 41,005
    Is Peter Ford considered credible?

    https://youtu.be/pVevIuIRuok
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    On a separate note, this is interesting:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/07/michel-barnier-eu-red-line-theresa-may-article-50-brussels

    Perhaps Jolyon Maugham's action in the Irish courts might actually strengthen Theresa May's hand by introducing some useful legal uncertainty.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990

    On a separate note, this is interesting:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/07/michel-barnier-eu-red-line-theresa-may-article-50-brussels

    Perhaps Jolyon Maugham's action in the Irish courts might actually strengthen Theresa May's hand by introducing some useful legal uncertainty.

    Didn't we have a big discussion on here about whether or not A50 revocation could be used to extend the process in exactly the way described? Seem to recall Scott_P being adamant it was not possible :p
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    BudG said:

    AndyJS said:
    68-32 to Melenchon according to the last head to head poll done on that scenario

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_French_presidential_election,_2017
    That's curious. Le Pen suffers a heavier defeat against Melenchon than against the other candidates.
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited April 2017
    RobD said:

    Didn't we have a big discussion on here about whether or not A50 revocation could be used to extend the process in exactly the way described? Seem to recall Scott_P being adamant it was not possible :p

    Indeed, and it probably isn't possible. It certainly requires a fairly heroic parsing of the Lisbon Treaty. But IANAL, and it would be sufficient to sow a little doubt in the minds of our EU friends to act as a useful discouragement against being too absurd in their demands. That article is interesting because it suggests that Michel Barnier at least does have a smidgen of doubt - otherwise why mention it?
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    AndyJS said:

    BudG said:

    AndyJS said:
    68-32 to Melenchon according to the last head to head poll done on that scenario

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_French_presidential_election,_2017
    That's curious. Le Pen suffers a heavier defeat against Melenchon than against the other candidates.
    Yeah, that's not plausible.
  • Options
    BudGBudG Posts: 711
    edited April 2017

    AndyJS said:

    BudG said:

    AndyJS said:
    68-32 to Melenchon according to the last head to head poll done on that scenario

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_French_presidential_election,_2017
    That's curious. Le Pen suffers a heavier defeat against Melenchon than against the other candidates.
    Yeah, that's not plausible.
    Probably is plausible in that if Melenchon is eliminated, Le Pen probably gets a fair amount of support from Melenchons supporters in the second round. As HYUFD said earlier, they fish in the same pool
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited April 2017
    BudG said:

    Probably is plausible in that if Melenchon is eliminated, Le Pen probably gets a fair amount of support from Melenchons supporters in the second round. As HYUFD said earlier, they fish in the same pool

    They fish in the same pool to some extent, but a chunk (I'd suggest quite a large chunk) of Mélenchon's support is more like our very own Corbynistas, who would be absolutely horrified by the idea of supporting Le Pen.
  • Options
    PongPong Posts: 4,693
    test
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited April 2017
    Maybe it's time to watch this video yet again:

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3BO6GP9NMY
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990
    Pong said:

    test

    seems to be working!
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990
    AndyJS said:

    Maybe it's time to watch this video yet again:

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3BO6GP9NMY

    Is there more news about Gibraltar? :D
  • Options
    BudGBudG Posts: 711

    BudG said:

    Probably is plausible in that if Melenchon is eliminated, Le Pen probably gets a fair amount of support from Melenchons supporters in the second round. As HYUFD said earlier, they fish in the same pool

    They fish in the same pool to some extent, but a chunk (I'd suggest quite a large chunk) of Mélenchon's support is more like our very own Corbynistas, who would be absolutely horrified by the idea of supporting Le Pen.
    Yes, on looking at it a little more closely and ignoring the opinion that they fish in the same pool, it would seem that only 12% of Melenchon's support would go to Le Pen in the second round if she were up against Macron, who would get 53% of his support with the rest abstaining, according to today's ifop poll.

    I think Melenchon would beat Le Pen quite easily in a head to head, but not the 68-32 that poll shows, although that poll was taken before Melenchon surge this week.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,170
    AndyJS said:

    BudG said:

    AndyJS said:
    68-32 to Melenchon according to the last head to head poll done on that scenario

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_French_presidential_election,_2017
    That's curious. Le Pen suffers a heavier defeat against Melenchon than against the other candidates.
    It depends on the poll, a February poll had Melenchon beating her by a much closer 54% to 46%, the same margin he beat Fillon, Macron beat Le Pen 65% to 35% in that poll. Melenchon won almost 90% of Hamon voters and over 70% of Macron voters but Le Pen won 70% of Fillon voters

    http://www.lalibre.be/actu/international/sondage-dedicated-emmanuel-macron-president-de-la-republique-58aa982fcd703b981556229b
  • Options
    notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Roger said:

    “…But while Brexit may motivate many Lib Dems, my hunch is that what matters at least as much is something generally overlooked by us chattering Westminster types: organisation."

    Compleely anecdotally..........I was speaking to the most archetypal Tory I know who claims to have never voted other than Tory in his life and he's even been known to go to the odd cocktail Party at the invitation of his local Tory MP.....

    ......Well he's now so angry about Brexit that he's voting Lib Dem. I know anecdotes are anecdotes but we all know weathervanes and if this guy is going Lib Dem then the tectonic plates have shifted and the polls are missing it.

    Hard to see the logic, really. The Tories campaigned for Remain; if his beef is that they made a pretty poor fist of it, the same is true of the Lib Dems.

    Let me hazard a couple of guesses: despite being on cocktail party terms with his Tory MP, he did not ring up the MP pre-referendum and offer his services to campaign for a Remain vote, and despite sounding a well-heeled sort of chap he did not write out a cheque for, ooh, £25000 or £50000 to the Remain campaign.

    But he is still JOLLY ANGRY.
    The Tories neither campaigned for leave or remain. The party was 100% neutral. No resources officially or unofficially were used to influence the outcome.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,170
    edited April 2017
    BudG said:

    BudG said:

    Probably is plausible in that if Melenchon is eliminated, Le Pen probably gets a fair amount of support from Melenchons supporters in the second round. As HYUFD said earlier, they fish in the same pool

    They fish in the same pool to some extent, but a chunk (I'd suggest quite a large chunk) of Mélenchon's support is more like our very own Corbynistas, who would be absolutely horrified by the idea of supporting Le Pen.
    Yes, on looking at it a little more closely and ignoring the opinion that they fish in the same pool, it would seem that only 12% of Melenchon's support would go to Le Pen in the second round if she were up against Macron, who would get 53% of his support with the rest abstaining, according to today's ifop poll.

    I think Melenchon would beat Le Pen quite easily in a head to head, but not the 68-32 that poll shows, although that poll was taken before Melenchon surge this week.
    Le Pen gets more support from Melenchon voters than she does from Hamon voters certainly against Macron and in such a scenario 47% of Melenchon supporters are not yet committing to vote for Macron.
  • Options
    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506

    Is there actually any evidence that links leaflets stuck through letter boxes to increased vote share? We had a leaflet from the Lib Dems yesterday and its transition from letter box to recycling bin was seamless, ditto one today from some other party. Pavement pounding and leafleting strikes me as being a waste of time and paper.

    How else would a minority political party get its message across to the electors?
  • Options
    The LibDems need only recapture a handful of the seats they lost to the Tories at GE 2015, which doesn't appear too demanding on recent polling evidence, coupled with Labour not losing any more seats to the Tories at GE 2020 which appears likely if only as a PHEW! relief reaction to a new credible leader being appointed as their leader before then, which will surely be the case and then hey presto, as if by magic, the Tories are certain to lose their very slim overall majority and yet those nice folk at Betfair Exchange (and indeed others) will offer you odds of 2/1 against such an eventuality.
    That looks like a gimme to me and I've wagered hundreds on such an outcome, but as ever DYOR.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,482
    RobD said:

    Pong said:

    test

    seems to be working!
    That just reveals a lack of imagination.
  • Options
    BudGBudG Posts: 711
    HYUFD said:

    BudG said:

    BudG said:

    Probably is plausible in that if Melenchon is eliminated, Le Pen probably gets a fair amount of support from Melenchons supporters in the second round. As HYUFD said earlier, they fish in the same pool

    They fish in the same pool to some extent, but a chunk (I'd suggest quite a large chunk) of Mélenchon's support is more like our very own Corbynistas, who would be absolutely horrified by the idea of supporting Le Pen.
    Yes, on looking at it a little more closely and ignoring the opinion that they fish in the same pool, it would seem that only 12% of Melenchon's support would go to Le Pen in the second round if she were up against Macron, who would get 53% of his support with the rest abstaining, according to today's ifop poll.

    I think Melenchon would beat Le Pen quite easily in a head to head, but not the 68-32 that poll shows, although that poll was taken before Melenchon surge this week.
    Le Pen gets more support from Melenchon voters than she does from Hamon voters certainly against Macron and in such a scenario 47% of Melenchon supporters are not yet committing to vote for Macron.
    Conversely, you could say that 88% of Melenchon supporters are not yet commiting to vote for Le Pen! ;)
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,170
    BudG said:

    HYUFD said:

    BudG said:

    BudG said:

    Probably is plausible in that if Melenchon is eliminated, Le Pen probably gets a fair amount of support from Melenchons supporters in the second round. As HYUFD said earlier, they fish in the same pool

    They fish in the same pool to some extent, but a chunk (I'd suggest quite a large chunk) of Mélenchon's support is more like our very own Corbynistas, who would be absolutely horrified by the idea of supporting Le Pen.
    Yes, on looking at it a little more closely and ignoring the opinion that they fish in the same pool, it would seem that only 12% of Melenchon's support would go to Le Pen in the second round if she were up against Macron, who would get 53% of his support with the rest abstaining, according to today's ifop poll.

    I think Melenchon would beat Le Pen quite easily in a head to head, but not the 68-32 that poll shows, although that poll was taken before Melenchon surge this week.
    Le Pen gets more support from Melenchon voters than she does from Hamon voters certainly against Macron and in such a scenario 47% of Melenchon supporters are not yet committing to vote for Macron.
    Conversely, you could say that 88% of Melenchon supporters are not yet commiting to vote for Le Pen! ;)
    True though after Melenchon and Le Pen both opposed the US strikes today while Macron supported them I expect the number of Melenchon voters not voting for Le Pen in the runoff to fall a little in the next poll
  • Options
    Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    The Economist have built a French Presidential election model: polls-only.

    Our model finds there is a 15% probability that run-off will not wind up being one of those two possibilities [Le Pen v Macron/Fillon], and we have no polling data to predict what might happen in such a situation. For the sake of argument, however, if we temporarily ignore the risk of a run-off pairing that has not been polled, Mr Macron would currently have a 84% chance of victory, Mr Fillon 14% and Ms Le Pen 2%.

    http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2017/04/election-forecasting?fsrc=scn/tw/once
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,789
    Y0kel said:

    Y0kel said:

    malcolmg said:

    Y0kel said:

    The Russians know more about the precise details of that chemical weapons attack than theyd like to let on that takes us well beyond just a 'didnt happen' denial.

    For starters, was it regular Sarin?

    You don't say, come out of the closet Tapestry all is forgiven.
    Variations on original formulations are not unusual.
    What we do know is that the bombed airbase had some very interesting containers
    https://twitter.com/CITeam_en/status/850445267996479488
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990

    The Economist have built a French Presidential election model: polls-only.

    Our model finds there is a 15% probability that run-off will not wind up being one of those two possibilities [Le Pen v Macron/Fillon], and we have no polling data to predict what might happen in such a situation. For the sake of argument, however, if we temporarily ignore the risk of a run-off pairing that has not been polled, Mr Macron would currently have a 84% chance of victory, Mr Fillon 14% and Ms Le Pen 2%.

    http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2017/04/election-forecasting?fsrc=scn/tw/once

    Macron 99%, Le Pen 1%... Now, where have I seen those odds before?... :smiley:
  • Options
    BudGBudG Posts: 711
    edited April 2017

    The Economist have built a French Presidential election model: polls-only.

    Our model finds there is a 15% probability that run-off will not wind up being one of those two possibilities [Le Pen v Macron/Fillon], and we have no polling data to predict what might happen in such a situation. For the sake of argument, however, if we temporarily ignore the risk of a run-off pairing that has not been polled, Mr Macron would currently have a 84% chance of victory, Mr Fillon 14% and Ms Le Pen 2%.

    http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2017/04/election-forecasting?fsrc=scn/tw/once

    "We start with our estimates for each candidate: currently around 25% for Marine Le Pen and Emmanuel Macron, 18% for Mr Fillon, 16% for Mr Mélenchon "

    However, their calculations would be thrown totally off course if they were to base them on the latest BVA poll this evening which gives Le Pen and Macron 23% and Melenchon and Fillon 19%
  • Options
    Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    RobD said:

    The Economist have built a French Presidential election model: polls-only.

    Our model finds there is a 15% probability that run-off will not wind up being one of those two possibilities [Le Pen v Macron/Fillon], and we have no polling data to predict what might happen in such a situation. For the sake of argument, however, if we temporarily ignore the risk of a run-off pairing that has not been polled, Mr Macron would currently have a 84% chance of victory, Mr Fillon 14% and Ms Le Pen 2%.

    http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2017/04/election-forecasting?fsrc=scn/tw/once

    Macron 99%, Le Pen 1%... Now, where have I seen those odds before?... :smiley:
    The best bit was when the Huffington '99%' Post presumed to tell Nate Silver where he was getting it wrong...
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,789
    malcolmg said:

    Carlotta will be really hacked off that Nicola Sturgeon is going down a treat in New York. Look forward to her twisted bitter bile tomorrow.

    More than she is in Edinburgh.......no wonder she wanted to be out of the country:

    https://twitter.com/UK__News/status/849619726196244480
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,039
    Roger said:

    “…But while Brexit may motivate many Lib Dems, my hunch is that what matters at least as much is something generally overlooked by us chattering Westminster types: organisation."

    Compleely anecdotally..........I was speaking to the most archetypal Tory I know who claims to have never voted other than Tory in his life and he's even been known to go to the odd cocktail Party at the invitation of his local Tory MP.....

    ......Well he's now so angry about Brexit that he's voting Lib Dem. I know anecdotes are anecdotes but we all know weathervanes and if this guy is going Lib Dem then the tectonic plates have shifted and the polls are missing it.

    Me too. I was a habitual Conservative voter for decades. After Brexit I will vote for whatever candidate is most likely to prevent a Conservative win. Even if that's "Corbyn's Labour".
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990
    edited April 2017

    malcolmg said:

    Carlotta will be really hacked off that Nicola Sturgeon is going down a treat in New York. Look forward to her twisted bitter bile tomorrow.

    More than she is in Edinburgh.......no wonder she wanted to be out of the country:

    twitter.com/UK__News/status/849619726196244480
    GDP of Scotland has hardly grown at all since Sturgeon took over!
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292
    edited April 2017
    According to Telegraph.

    Sweden truck attack suspect 'is 39-year-old from Uzbekistan who posted jihadist propaganda'
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,170
    Dura_Ace said:

    Roger said:

    “…But while Brexit may motivate many Lib Dems, my hunch is that what matters at least as much is something generally overlooked by us chattering Westminster types: organisation."

    Compleely anecdotally..........I was speaking to the most archetypal Tory I know who claims to have never voted other than Tory in his life and he's even been known to go to the odd cocktail Party at the invitation of his local Tory MP.....

    ......Well he's now so angry about Brexit that he's voting Lib Dem. I know anecdotes are anecdotes but we all know weathervanes and if this guy is going Lib Dem then the tectonic plates have shifted and the polls are missing it.

    Me too. I was a habitual Conservative voter for decades. After Brexit I will vote for whatever candidate is most likely to prevent a Conservative win. Even if that's "Corbyn's Labour".
    May is doing worse with ABs relative to Cameron but significantly better with C1s and C2s and marginally better with DEs
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,789
    RobD said:

    malcolmg said:

    Carlotta will be really hacked off that Nicola Sturgeon is going down a treat in New York. Look forward to her twisted bitter bile tomorrow.

    More than she is in Edinburgh.......no wonder she wanted to be out of the country:

    twitter.com/UK__News/status/849619726196244480
    GDP of Scotland has hardly grown at all since Sturgeon took over!
    LOOK! Nicola in New York!!!!!!

    https://twitter.com/Shona_Angus/status/850387351180369920
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,170
    BudG said:

    The Economist have built a French Presidential election model: polls-only.

    Our model finds there is a 15% probability that run-off will not wind up being one of those two possibilities [Le Pen v Macron/Fillon], and we have no polling data to predict what might happen in such a situation. For the sake of argument, however, if we temporarily ignore the risk of a run-off pairing that has not been polled, Mr Macron would currently have a 84% chance of victory, Mr Fillon 14% and Ms Le Pen 2%.

    http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2017/04/election-forecasting?fsrc=scn/tw/once

    "We start with our estimates for each candidate: currently around 25% for Marine Le Pen and Emmanuel Macron, 18% for Mr Fillon, 16% for Mr Mélenchon "

    However, their calculations would be thrown totally off course if they were to base them on the latest BVA poll this evening which gives Le Pen and Macron 23% and Melenchon and Fillon 19%
    Amongst the over 35s IFOP has it Le Pen 25% Fillon 22% Macron 22% Melenchon 15% and Hamon 8% and amongst the over 65s Fillon 38% Macron 24% Le Pen 15% Melenchon 9% Hamon 6%. As older voters are much more likely to vote as recent elections and referendums confirm I expect it to be much tighter than the headline polls suggest as to which of Fillon or Macron faces Le Pen in the runoff
    http://dataviz.ifop.com:8080/IFOP_ROLLING/IFOP_07-04-2017.pdf
  • Options
    PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited April 2017
    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Roger said:

    “…But while Brexit may motivate many Lib Dems, my hunch is that what matters at least as much is something generally overlooked by us chattering Westminster types: organisation."

    Compleely anecdotally..........I was speaking to the most archetypal Tory I know who claims to have never voted other than Tory in his life and he's even been known to go to the odd cocktail Party at the invitation of his local Tory MP.....

    ......Well he's now so angry about Brexit that he's voting Lib Dem. I know anecdotes are anecdotes but we all know weathervanes and if this guy is going Lib Dem then the tectonic plates have shifted and the polls are missing it.

    Me too. I was a habitual Conservative voter for decades. After Brexit I will vote for whatever candidate is most likely to prevent a Conservative win. Even if that's "Corbyn's Labour".
    May is doing worse with ABs relative to Cameron but significantly better with C1s and C2s and marginally better with DEs
    This is why TM would be smart to nick Corbyns VAT on private school fees policy for her JAM sandwich. Pick a fight with the top 15% and do it on her own turf.

    I think she's too weak without her own mandate, though.
  • Options
    CyanCyan Posts: 1,262
    edited April 2017
    The most famous switcher from Le Pen to Mélenchon? Brigitte Bardot!

    And from Sep 2016: the National Front offered to help Mélenchon get the 500 nominations required for candidacy in the election.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292
    edited April 2017
    http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/krim/a/BaA97/terrormisstankt-gomde-sig-bland-tagpendlare

    I don't understand...why are the Swedish media pixelating out the (suspected) terrorist in the photos of his arrest...when the authorities have already released pictures of him?

    They show the faces of victims and special force police but not the suspect.

    Is this some legal thing in Sweden?
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,146

    RobD said:

    malcolmg said:

    Carlotta will be really hacked off that Nicola Sturgeon is going down a treat in New York. Look forward to her twisted bitter bile tomorrow.

    More than she is in Edinburgh.......no wonder she wanted to be out of the country:

    twitter.com/UK__News/status/849619726196244480
    GDP of Scotland has hardly grown at all since Sturgeon took over!
    LOOK! Nicola in New York!!!!!!

    https://twitter.com/Shona_Angus/status/850387351180369920
    Off with her head.....
  • Options
    scotslassscotslass Posts: 912
    Carlotta/Tory research dept

    Not sure the graph makes your point. I had a good look at the GDP figure comparisons between Scotland and UK back to 2007.

    1) If they are affected by who is First Minister then Salmond must be a wizard since during his term of office Scotland outgrew the UK both in absolute terms but also crucially on the better measure of GDP per capita. This was for just about the first time for a sustained period since the second world war.

    2)If you extract the South East and London from the figures Scotland outgrew the rest of UK during the Salmond years by some 50 per cent.

    3) In the run up to the 2014 referendum Scotland outgrew the UK by a measurable distance belying the suggestion from Carlotta/Tory research dept/George Osborne that the prospect of indy was putting off investment. Indeed the opposite seemed to be the case.

    4) The recent flatlining of Scottish growth is explained by the 100,00 job losses in the biggest industry since the Scottish GDP figures don't measure output offshore (which has been going up) but activity onshore which has been going down,. This affects not just the narrow measurement of oil and gas and mineral extraction in the output tables but services, construction and engineering.

    5) Imagine where the UK output would be if it had lost 1 million jobs which is the equivalent in its biggest industry.

    Lastly the more recent employment figures are much better pointing to a recovery this year and despite the above unemployment in Scotland is not back to the UK average and employment only 1 per cent below. That points to a great deal of resilience in the Scottish economy.

    Thus when the GDP figures turn positive (as they will in the first quarter of 2017) then no doubt Carlotta/Tory research dept will allocate Nicola Sturgeon the credit - just as they previously lavished praise on Mr Salmond!
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,002

    RobD said:

    The Economist have built a French Presidential election model: polls-only.

    Our model finds there is a 15% probability that run-off will not wind up being one of those two possibilities [Le Pen v Macron/Fillon], and we have no polling data to predict what might happen in such a situation. For the sake of argument, however, if we temporarily ignore the risk of a run-off pairing that has not been polled, Mr Macron would currently have a 84% chance of victory, Mr Fillon 14% and Ms Le Pen 2%.

    http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2017/04/election-forecasting?fsrc=scn/tw/once

    Macron 99%, Le Pen 1%... Now, where have I seen those odds before?... :smiley:
    The best bit was when the Huffington '99%' Post presumed to tell Nate Silver where he was getting it wrong...
    Hillary probably was 99% to beat Trump "under French rules", indeed she did :D
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990
    scotslass/SNP rebuttal dept.

    "A great deal of resilience in the Scottish economy"?

    Looks like GDP has been flatlining for two years. And really, if I took out the two best performing Scottish regions I could make the disparity even bigger!
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292
    Trouble at mill...

    Donald Trump 'considering sacking Steve Bannon and Reince Priebus' as simmering West Wing feud engulfs White House

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/08/donald-trump-considering-sacking-steve-bannon-reince-priebus/
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,789
    RobD said:

    scotslass/SNP rebuttal dept.

    The funniest claim from the SNP rebuttal department (not Scotslass - not a good European, evidently, with all that cherry-picking!) was the claim that a lenders requirement that an Aberdeen City Council bond be repaid immediately in the event of independence was somehow the work of the borrower........
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,789
    scotslass said:

    Carlotta/Tory research dept

    Not sure the graph makes your point.

    That Scottish GDP has been flat-lining for two years?

    It certainly doesn't make the SNP's point that 'its all Brexit fault' as that would affect the UK too.

    Any additional uncertainty in Scotland you can think of?
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,789

    Trouble at mill...

    Donald Trump 'considering sacking Steve Bannon and Reince Priebus' as simmering West Wing feud engulfs White House

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/08/donald-trump-considering-sacking-steve-bannon-reince-priebus/

    The love affair with the alt-right truly will be over.......
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,460

    Trouble at mill...

    Donald Trump 'considering sacking Steve Bannon and Reince Priebus' as simmering West Wing feud engulfs White House

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/08/donald-trump-considering-sacking-steve-bannon-reince-priebus/

    Look! Syrian squirrel!
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,789
    For those disputing the Syrian chemical attack evidence [GRAPHIC CONTENT]:

    https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2017/04/05/khan-sheikhoun-chemical-attack-evidence-far/
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,789
    Non-SNP Rebuttal department take on Scottish GDP:

    5. A striking feature of the data today was the lack of any growth in the all-important services sector in the final quarter of 2016. Given the importance of this sector to the health of the overall economy, this is a real worry. However, on an annual basis, this sector did grow by +1.6% (or +1.8% on a 4Q-on-4Q basis) in 2016. Nevertheless, the Scottish services sector has been lagging way behind the equivalent UK sector-illustrated in the chart below. This matters because, given its sheer scale, this is actually the biggest driver of the relative gap in performance between the UK and Scottish economies.

    6. Performance in the Scottish manufacturing sector has also been poor, with output shrinking by -0.9% at the end of 2016; and the sector contracting by -4.6% over the year. Worryingly, all parts of the manufacturing sector declined during 2016. The Food & Drink sector, for instance, shrank by -6.6% over the year, with a similar decline (-6.3%) in the Metals, Metal Products & Machinery sector.


    https://fraserofallander.org/2017/04/05/7-bullet-points-on-the-gdp-data-released-today/
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,799
    edited April 2017


    Exactly, Miliband's position was completely untenable and transparently dishonest. With the one exception of Blair's dodgy dossier, I can't think of anything as disgraceful in UK parliamentary politics in the 50 years* I've been following politics

    * (I was a precocious child!)

    David Cameron failed to make the case for intervention and then blamed Milliband for it. The vote was lost because he didn't have much support for it amongst his own MPs, reflecting a wider opposition amongst the public.

  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,079

    kle4 said:


    Top marks to Private Eye again. They've been saying for years what a scandal it is.

    The extraordinary thing is, even the artist's impression looks ugly. Imagine what it would be like in reality.
    I think it looks neat. But no way should so much public money have been spent on something just to look neat.
    The phrase "monstrous carbuncle on the face of a much-loved and elegant friend" springs to mind. As for the cost, isn't David Cameron at risk of being surcharged for it? Established financial procedures were ignored. It can't be acceptable for a PM to overrule civil service advice without a credible justification. He wasn't above the law then and he certainly isn't now.
    Not sure where you get that from: the report doesn't mention 'Cameron' or 'PM' once. Boris Johnson, on the other hand, has a fair few mentions; few of them complimentary.
    Cameron was mentioned in a news report from October:

    ' David Cameron personally intervened to approve extra taxpayer funding for London's controversial Garden Bridge project, it has emerged.

    The former prime minister did so against advice from officials, an investigation by the National Audit Office (NAO) found.

    The NAO said nearly £23m of taxpayer money was now at risk of being lost.

    Transport Minister Lord Ahmad said the government remained supportive of the project.

    London mayor Sadiq Khan has ordered a full review of the proposals for the Thames river crossing.

    The Whitehall spending watchdog said government ministers ignored the advice of civil servants on at least two occasions not to extend funding to the Garden Bridge Trust.

    On the second occasion that they did so Conservative party chairman Sir Patrick McLoughlin, who was then transport secretary, issued a formal ministerial direction to civil servants requiring them to extend the taxpayers' exposure and underwrite liabilities of £15m if the project did not go ahead.

    That ministerial direction was issued after cabinet secretary Sir Jeremy Heywood wrote to the Department for Transport (DfT) expressing the "frustration" of Mr Cameron and then chancellor George Osborne at perceived hold-ups to the funding. '

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-37616161

    There seems plenty of blame to go around.
    Odd how that's not in yesterday's report. It's patently clear where most of the blame should go.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,079

    Syria is repeatedly using chemical weapons, which have been banned by convention for many decades. Worse, he's using them against civilians. The international community (via the UN) is doing f'all about it.

    This is important. One of the reasons countries like Syria felt able to develop such weapons was because of the west's craven attitude towards Saddam's use of them in the 1980s. They are cheaper and easier to develop than weaponised nukes (except for some biological weapons), and can be very effective in area denial. If you're a sh*t like Assad and there are not going to be any penalties for having chemical weapons, why not have them?

    From a purely selfish point of view, the more states that have chemical weapons, the more likely they are to be used against us. Precedents are being set.

    Incidentally, it also makes a joke of Security Council resolution 2118

    It was not just a craven attitude by the West it was complicity on a grand scale. Saddam was 'our man' against those nasty Iranians. As such we were quite content to let him kill tens of thousands of Iranians and Kurds with chemical weapons used on dozens of occasions on a massive scale. The US even went so far as to try to pretend that it was the Iranians who used the weapons at Halabja not the Iraqis. Of course as soon as Saddam stopped being 'our man' then we started on the campaign about what a wicked person he was to have used chemical weapons. Now we do the same with Syria because Assad is a bad man and not one of ours. The hypocrisy is sickening.
    Well, indeed. But Assad, like Saddam, is a bad man. We should not ignore his actions just because we made a wrong, immoral decision in the past.
This discussion has been closed.