politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Blindsided. Leavers have given the PM a free rein over the Art
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Old school 17th century tho'?Ishmael_Z said:
I believe JackW is a Jacobite.Theuniondivvie said:
*excepting those still living in the 18th century.JackW said:
Patriotism and the loyal toast are not the same thing.View_From_Cumbria said:Mr Farron has always bent the truth. In 1997 he was sacked by the leader of Lancashire CC Lib Dems for refusing to stand during the loyal toast at a civic function. Today he is claiming patriotism. Journalists - ask him about that civic function in 1997 !
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How do other small countries survive, why would Scotland be the only country in the world unable to get credit.ydoethur said:
That will only be possible if Scotland adopts the Euro with the agreement of the ECB. Otherwise, with no lender of last resort no bank would be able to carry on business in Scotland as nobody would offer it credit. One of the big risks of independence, ironically, is that RBS would have to move.RochdalePioneers said:
And the same with banking, where it's even easier to up sticks and move. This I believe is the Trump card Sturgeon intends to play. All the way through our "negotiations" the EU will tell us not to go. They'll say stay in the market are you mad? So Sturgeon will agree her own deal - an independent Scotland in the EEA via EFTA, they'll give her transitional access, and so she'll have her referendum next autumn whether London likes it or not. And the carrot? No need to move to Frankfurt Mr Barclays, just come to Edinburgh.
What might be really damaging to the SNP is that they seem intent on holding a wildcat ballot - which they still look set to lose. Losing a once-in-a-generation ballot twice in ten years under such auspicious circumstances would kill talk of independence for another 300 years. Not smart politics by Mrs May to try and block it.
I see loads of small countries , many more prosperous than UK surviving perfectly well. Why would Scotland be the only odd man out.0 -
Jeebs, like him or hate him, Blair would run rings around May at PMQs.0
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Aus - India match getting exciting. Bangladesh, finally, might just do it.OldKingCole said:
Wriddhiman Saha’s got his century; Pujara 4 away from his double.Bangladesh 39 away!ydoethur said:
And they lose the other set batsman too. Their two best and most experienced batsmen are however now at the crease. Can they keep their heads? Just 47 to go for a famous win.OldKingCole said:
Still think Bangladesh will do it. And Ireland are coming off second best to Afghanistan. Do they Morgan back?ydoethur said:Meanwhile, in important news, Bangladesh are sixty runs away from a first away test win against proper opposition (admittedly a proper opposition missing its two best batsman) with eight wickets left and Tamim Iqbal going great guns.
And in India, Mr Chetshwar Pujara is demonstrating to the Aussies what proper test batting looks like as India take the lead after lunch on the fourth day with Pujara closing in on a double century and Wriddihim Saha closing in on a ton - with Jadeja still to come.
So it's not just England who get walloped by these teams!
Edit - and just as I say that, Tamim throws it away.
Ireland are welcome to Morgan as long as Root is not made England one-day captain.0 -
He is the original cause of Brexit and is as arrogant as ever - 'I am right and everyone else is wrong 'Monksfield said:Jeebs, like him or hate him, Blair would run rings around May at PMQs.
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This is just a bizarre thread header. Does Alastair seriously think that the House of Commons will not debate every aspect of any potential deal with the EU? May has to remember, as the late, great Iain M Banks put it, where the off switch is. If her approach to these negotiations does not meet the approval of the House of Commons she can be removed, just like Chamberlain was.
If you are wondering where these different views and approaches might come from try reading the Evening Standard. I hear they have a new editor.0 -
That's great news. We know how to manage AIDS with no loss of function. And I'm very hopeful about some scientific work that a company I'm invested in is doingDura_Ace said:
The post Brexit UK economy will be more like getting AIDS than being killed instantly in a motorway pile up.0 -
O/T Panelbase have a poll showing support for Scottish independence at 44/56%.0
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I am convinced that when TM gets into the real deal she will not even take into account the so called hard Brexit. She will be seeking a compromise that may not suit the remainers but will not be anywhere near the so called hard Brexiteers.DavidL said:This is just a bizarre thread header. Does Alastair seriously think that the House of Commons will not debate every aspect of any potential deal with the EU? May has to remember, as the late, great Iain M Banks put it, where the off switch is. If her approach to these negotiations does not meet the approval of the House of Commons she can be removed, just like Chamberlain was.
If you are wondering where these different views and approaches might come from try reading the Evening Standard. I hear they have a new editor.
However, her starting point absolutely has to be a hard Brexit as anything less would show weakness.0 -
Best take away their right to vote really - clearly the country would be well run if only people like you could vote.Chris_A said:
I'm afraid by assuming that people would listen to reason rather than dissembling, bile, hatred and downright lies. The Remain campaign was pretty clueless too in many parts.Alanbrooke said:
if remainers are so stonkingly clever, how come they lost ?Chris_A said:Have to admit I'd never thought until now of the Remainer May strategy to be one of bluff and double bluff in order to get her own way but such is the intellect of your average Leaver, who would make Worzel Gummidge look like an intellect giant, it's quite possible that she's run rings round them to ensure that the country isn't damaged unnecessarily.
I mean by your own admission you only had to bamboozle a bunch of thickos and you couldnt, so what does that say about you ?
But anyone who voted leave can have given the matter so little thought, or rather got the importance of the relative issues such as peace, security and prosperity so completely the wrong way round then yes they're "a bunch of thickos" who can't see beyond their hatred of foreigners.0 -
And by the way I expect an Autumn election at the earliest as it is too close to the serving of A50 for the 4th MayBig_G_NorthWales said:
I am convinced that when TM gets into the real deal she will not even take into account the so called hard Brexit. She will be seeking a compromise that may not suit the remainers but will not be anywhere near the so called hard Brexiteers.DavidL said:This is just a bizarre thread header. Does Alastair seriously think that the House of Commons will not debate every aspect of any potential deal with the EU? May has to remember, as the late, great Iain M Banks put it, where the off switch is. If her approach to these negotiations does not meet the approval of the House of Commons she can be removed, just like Chamberlain was.
If you are wondering where these different views and approaches might come from try reading the Evening Standard. I hear they have a new editor.
However, her starting point absolutely has to be a hard Brexit as anything less would show weakness.0 -
OBig_G_NorthWales said:
I am convinced that when TM gets into the real deal she will not even take into account the so called hard Brexit. She will be seeking a compromise that may not suit the remainers but will not be anywhere near the so called hard Brexiteers.DavidL said:This is just a bizarre thread header. Does Alastair seriously think that the House of Commons will not debate every aspect of any potential deal with the EU? May has to remember, as the late, great Iain M Banks put it, where the off switch is. If her approach to these negotiations does not meet the approval of the House of Commons she can be removed, just like Chamberlain was.
If you are wondering where these different views and approaches might come from try reading the Evening Standard. I hear they have a new editor.
However, her starting point absolutely has to be a hard Brexit as anything less would show weakness.
Oh dear there you goBig_G_NorthWales said:
I am convinced that when TM gets into the real deal she will not even take into account the so called hard Brexit. She will be seeking a compromise that may not suit the remainers but will not be anywhere near the so called hard Brexiteers.DavidL said:This is just a bizarre thread header. Does Alastair seriously think that the House of Commons will not debate every aspect of any potential deal with the EU? May has to remember, as the late, great Iain M Banks put it, where the off switch is. If her approach to these negotiations does not meet the approval of the House of Commons she can be removed, just like Chamberlain was.
If you are wondering where these different views and approaches might come from try reading the Evening Standard. I hear they have a new editor.
However, her starting point absolutely has to be a hard Brexit as anything less would show weakness.
off polluting the site with common sense again
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Evil, wicked austerity has been replaced by evil,wicked Brexit for many.Charles said:
I don't think SO is really a remoaner.JonnyJimmy said:I'm 'Remoaner' really cuts it anymore for describing those like SO and Meeks.
I reckon Contimentalist is a better fit
He's just a chronic whinger. If it wasn't this it would be something else...
My newsnow feed has the Guardian/Independent often churning out ten anti-Brexit type articles every few hours.
It's the double standards that are the most amusing.0 -
But equally unlikely to regard toasting the House of Hanover as patriotic.Theuniondivvie said:
Old school 17th century tho'?Ishmael_Z said:
I believe JackW is a Jacobite.Theuniondivvie said:
*excepting those still living in the 18th century.JackW said:
Patriotism and the loyal toast are not the same thing.View_From_Cumbria said:Mr Farron has always bent the truth. In 1997 he was sacked by the leader of Lancashire CC Lib Dems for refusing to stand during the loyal toast at a civic function. Today he is claiming patriotism. Journalists - ask him about that civic function in 1997 !
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amateurschestnut said:
Evil, wicked austerity has been replaced by evil,wicked Brexit for many.Charles said:
I don't think SO is really a remoaner.JonnyJimmy said:I'm 'Remoaner' really cuts it anymore for describing those like SO and Meeks.
I reckon Contimentalist is a better fit
He's just a chronic whinger. If it wasn't this it would be something else...
My newsnow feed has the Guardian/Independent often churning out ten anti-Brexit type articles every few hours.
they need young Meeks as their editor0 -
AIDS/HIV is now a chronic disease like Diabetes, and similar life expectancy.Charles said:
That's great news. We know how to manage AIDS with no loss of function. And I'm very hopeful about some scientific work that a company I'm invested in is doingDura_Ace said:
The post Brexit UK economy will be more like getting AIDS than being killed instantly in a motorway pile up.
I would still rather not have it though!0 -
lorralloralaughsAlanbrooke said:
amateurschestnut said:
Evil, wicked austerity has been replaced by evil,wicked Brexit for many.Charles said:
I don't think SO is really a remoaner.JonnyJimmy said:I'm 'Remoaner' really cuts it anymore for describing those like SO and Meeks.
I reckon Contimentalist is a better fit
He's just a chronic whinger. If it wasn't this it would be something else...
My newsnow feed has the Guardian/Independent often churning out ten anti-Brexit type articles every few hours.
they need young Meeks as their editor0 -
The Meeks of this world will still be fighting the referendum in decades to come, much like some are still fighting the 1983 election against Fatcher. Sad really.DavidL said:This is just a bizarre thread header. Does Alastair seriously think that the House of Commons will not debate every aspect of any potential deal with the EU? May has to remember, as the late, great Iain M Banks put it, where the off switch is. If her approach to these negotiations does not meet the approval of the House of Commons she can be removed, just like Chamberlain was.
If you are wondering where these different views and approaches might come from try reading the Evening Standard. I hear they have a new editor.0 -
or (3) offering a coherent opposing argumentSouthamObserver said:
It's amazing the number of people that comment on Alastair Meeks pieces without (1) reading them; or (2) understanding them.View_From_Cumbria said:
Yesterday Tim Farron was awarded the "Remoaner of the Year" award. Is this article Mr Meeks's attempt to get that decision overturned ?MonikerDiCanio said:
An excruciating performance by Meeks. I felt like Dustin Hoffman in the dentist's chair after a couple of sentences.felix said:So many words to say so little.
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The big difference is that our relationship with Europe will always be a current issue.CornishBlue said:
The Meeks of this world will still be fighting the referendum in decades to come, much like some are still fighting the 1983 election against Fatcher. Sad really.DavidL said:This is just a bizarre thread header. Does Alastair seriously think that the House of Commons will not debate every aspect of any potential deal with the EU? May has to remember, as the late, great Iain M Banks put it, where the off switch is. If her approach to these negotiations does not meet the approval of the House of Commons she can be removed, just like Chamberlain was.
If you are wondering where these different views and approaches might come from try reading the Evening Standard. I hear they have a new editor.0 -
Nothing wrong with that although we'll probably prioritise 5-10.foxinsoxuk said:
Such a job offer residence requirement would not work well for British pensioners in the EU.HYUFD said:
The maximum May will likely be able to offer the EU is a job offer requirement for EU migrants to the UK and some limited budget contributions continuing to the EU, If they refuse to do any sort of trade deal even with that form of offer then most British voters will likely say 'sod EU then' including I would venture most Scotsfoxinsoxuk said:
The PR nature of German democracy means that there will be a coalition, but it also means one that is even more pro EU than Merkel.Alanbrooke said:
I'm not so surefoxinsoxuk said:
The pictures an coverage of the Leader of the Free world meeting Donald Trump last week will have done her a power of good. She is going to have a good election outcome.Alanbrooke said:
he's now more likely Bundeskanzler than MerkelCasino_Royale said:
Merkel has been in power longer than Thatcher, and has split her own voting coalition by tacking to the Left in office.Alanbrooke said:Merkel heading for retirement
red red green now heading for a majority ( SPD, the Left, Greens )
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/bundestagswahl/rot-rot-gruen-erreicht-laut-umfrage-knappe-mehrheit-14931775.html
So Schulz will probably win, and he will probably play hardball with the UK.
she has 33% of the vote atm, wont deal with the AfD and screwed the FDP last time round
the drop in the AfD vote and rise in SPD are probably related, she now needs the AfD to take votes back off Schulz if she is to have grand coalition 2
she has managed to get herself in a position where the Left can form a government by itself, and she can only govern with SPD support. That's not a strong hand. She will need a big shift in the opinion polls to be Chancellor again and just maybe the "time for a change" theme is starting to work against her. So far Schulz big attraction has been he's a fresh face.
Negotiations are going nowhere, and never could. Rock hard Brexit is the destination and we shouldn’t waste too much time planning for anything else.
As I pointed out earlier, the status of non EU non EEA nationals is a competence of national governments not the European parliament. Unless we remain in the EEA, the EU cannot enforce residency rights for British citizens in the EU. We could have 27 bilateral arrangements, I suppose.0 -
Nicola on Sophy (Sky) does seem less confident than usual. She seems almost to be pleading with Theresa May to at the very least to discuss a date.
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I can see a Sturgeon platform of 'vote Yes for unlimited migration from Eastern Europe and a few City bankers moving to Edinburgh' sweeping all before it, yes!RochdalePioneers said:We know it will be hard Brexit and that's not because of Jacob Rees-Mogg and the Daily Mail. The EU are worried about the fracturing of their project and the rise of fascism. Set aside the practical reality that negotiating a deal in 18 months isn't just impossible it's insane, they can't and won't grant a deal. If they did it might encourage others to consider their own position.
So unfortunately for Blighty the deal we will be offered is va te faire foutre, and so off we go to WTO land. In a few years time things might settle back down, but thats like saying that after a big asteroid crashes into the earth things might settle back down.
The cost of WTO tariffs is broadly similar to what we pay the EU, so no £350m a week for the NHS. But it's the shock impact to industry that will do the terminal damage - a British car industry reliant on parts being shipped to and from the EU to be built here won't be viable if BMW have to pay an import tariff to the EU to ship Hams Hall engines to Germany for gearbox fitting then a tariff to the UK to install them in a Mini. Yes in the long term a supply chain can be set up. But in practice it will be the same impact as privatisation had on the train building industry - its swift closure.
And the same with banking, where it's even easier to up sticks and move. This I believe is the Trump card Sturgeon intends to play. All the way through our "negotiations" the EU will tell us not to go. They'll say stay in the market are you mad? So Sturgeon will agree her own deal - an independent Scotland in the EEA via EFTA, they'll give her transitional access, and so she'll have her referendum next autumn whether London likes it or not. And the carrot? No need to move to Frankfurt Mr Barclays, just come to Edinburgh.0 -
lolBig_G_NorthWales said:Nicola on Sophy (Sky) does seem less confident than usual. She seems almost to be pleading with Theresa May to at the very least to discuss a date.
now shes apparently applying to join the EU
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And hand control to BrusselsAlanbrooke said:
lolBig_G_NorthWales said:Nicola on Sophy (Sky) does seem less confident than usual. She seems almost to be pleading with Theresa May to at the very least to discuss a date.
now shes apparently applying to join the EU0 -
I know! I was just amusing myself by taking @Dura_Ace literallyfoxinsoxuk said:
AIDS/HIV is now a chronic disease like Diabetes, and similar life expectancy.Charles said:
That's great news. We know how to manage AIDS with no loss of function. And I'm very hopeful about some scientific work that a company I'm invested in is doingDura_Ace said:
The post Brexit UK economy will be more like getting AIDS than being killed instantly in a motorway pile up.
I would still rather not have it though!0 -
True, though up until 2016 there was just one direction of that relationship - towards ever-closer union etc. Now things have changed. People are discussing the various options available to a European country and several such countries will settle for a non-EU future, including perhaps an independent Scotland (ie taking a Norway-style EEA approach). Once the EU becomes a federal country then joining it will be almost impossible, politically and practically. We will probably end up with with a Europe consisting of (in terms of sovereign entities) a federal EU, Russia (incl. Belarus and some other territory), Turkey, Switzerland, England & Wales, Scotland, Norway and the microstates. It will settle down at some point.williamglenn said:
The big difference is that our relationship with Europe will always be a current issue.CornishBlue said:
The Meeks of this world will still be fighting the referendum in decades to come, much like some are still fighting the 1983 election against Fatcher. Sad really.DavidL said:This is just a bizarre thread header. Does Alastair seriously think that the House of Commons will not debate every aspect of any potential deal with the EU? May has to remember, as the late, great Iain M Banks put it, where the off switch is. If her approach to these negotiations does not meet the approval of the House of Commons she can be removed, just like Chamberlain was.
If you are wondering where these different views and approaches might come from try reading the Evening Standard. I hear they have a new editor.0 -
Garbage, Scotland has been ignored for years, it is being ignored now and will be ignored in the future. That si guaranteed under Tories. We will see a referendum for sure and May's Mugabe announcement will only strengthen public opinion further.Charles said:
Sturgeon has undermined her credibility - the trick was to continually to say that you might demand one but not actually to do so. Now she's got a bit for "grievance" but nothing of practical value.foxinsoxuk said:@Charles
at 0723 I posted "There are 28 Parliaments in the EU that have the right to discuss and reject any Brexit deal mid negotiations. Those are the ones of the EU27 and of the EU itself. The only one that does not have that right is Westminster. Tis a strange sort of control that we have taken back."
This is correct. While the final Brexit is done by QMV, though perhaps needing unanimity on trade issues, Any EU27 parliament can debate the negotiations and direct their negotiating team as they see fit. Except Westminster.
Sturgeon has played a blinder, whatever the status of #indyref2, May cannot ignore the Scottish interest.
And May won't ignore the Scottish interest. She is PM of the UK and will weigh the interest alongside the interests of, say, Herefordshire, and determine the right way forward for the UK a a whole. (I can understand why ScotNats might not think this works - I wasn't happy with the Mercosur negotiations, for instance, which were in the EU's interest but were negative for the UK - but they had a referendum on leaving and were denied)0 -
Rather like some people went on fighting the 1975 Referendum.CornishBlue said:
The Meeks of this world will still be fighting the referendum in decades to come, much like some are still fighting the 1983 election against Fatcher. Sad really.DavidL said:This is just a bizarre thread header. Does Alastair seriously think that the House of Commons will not debate every aspect of any potential deal with the EU? May has to remember, as the late, great Iain M Banks put it, where the off switch is. If her approach to these negotiations does not meet the approval of the House of Commons she can be removed, just like Chamberlain was.
If you are wondering where these different views and approaches might come from try reading the Evening Standard. I hear they have a new editor.0 -
Agreed on both points, Merkel will still likely be Chancellor and the deal will be a fudgeNickPalmer said:
Agree with all of that. Schulz hasn't ruled out a Left/Green deal (so far as I know) but the SPD doesn't really want it at national level: it's a negotiating ploy to counter the "there is no alternative to letting the CDU lead" line.HYUFD said:
Total exaggeration. Even on that poll the CDU on 33% is ahead of the SPD on 32% and the SPD would only form a government by 1% with Die Linke which they have historically ruled out as much as the CDU has with the AfD. As I have also consistently said it is complete fantasy to suggest Merkel will play soft with the UK while Schulz will play hard, everything Merkel has said is consistent with the EU line that the UK will only get a trade deal if it makes some concessions on EU immigration and maintains some continued payments to the EU. The only party which would really support Brexit UK is the AfD. In any case all 27 EU nations must agree to a deal and Germany is just one of themCasino_Royale said:
Merkel has been in power longer than Thatcher, and has split her own voting coalition by tacking to the Left in office.Alanbrooke said:Merkel heading for retirement
red red green now heading for a majority ( SPD, the Left, Greens )
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/bundestagswahl/rot-rot-gruen-erreicht-laut-umfrage-knappe-mehrheit-14931775.html
So Schulz will probably win, and he will probably play hardball with the UK.
Personally I expect Merkel to be able to stay, in a result that will have some siimilarities to Netherlands - serious losses for the centre-right, but no convincing alternative. If the SPD makes further progress or the FDP drop under thew 5% threshold, Schulz might make it.
Here's the latest poll and comparisons, so readers can judge for themselves (other polls are similar):
http://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/emnid.htm
On topic, it's usually best to avoid the glorious subshine and horrible apocalypse scenarios beloved of journalists (newspaper motto: "simply, then exaggerate"). There will be a deal, and it'll be hard to characterise as soft or hard as it will have both elements, a result of the messy multi-headed negotiations that are coming. We will probably uneasily embrace it and life will become uncomfortable for some years.0 -
Nicola just said she is not responsible for Scotland's enormous deficit - so her overspending is not her fault0
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The deal with the EU is being enormously exaggerated in its importance. In reality, post Brexit, we will struggle to tell the difference on a day to day basis. I am confident that we will have tariff free trade, that we will get equivalence to regulation in financial services, that there will be some sort of fast track for EU citizens who want to come here making it easier for them than it is for other parts of the world, that those already here will have unqualified rights to remain, that there will be things in the deal that upset some Brexiteers and some remainers but the majority of us will accept it and move on.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I am convinced that when TM gets into the real deal she will not even take into account the so called hard Brexit. She will be seeking a compromise that may not suit the remainers but will not be anywhere near the so called hard Brexiteers.DavidL said:This is just a bizarre thread header. Does Alastair seriously think that the House of Commons will not debate every aspect of any potential deal with the EU? May has to remember, as the late, great Iain M Banks put it, where the off switch is. If her approach to these negotiations does not meet the approval of the House of Commons she can be removed, just like Chamberlain was.
If you are wondering where these different views and approaches might come from try reading the Evening Standard. I hear they have a new editor.
However, her starting point absolutely has to be a hard Brexit as anything less would show weakness.
Of course the initial deal is just the start and our relationship with the EU will continue to evolve and develop over time for as long as that Institution exists.0 -
why take orders from Mrs May when you can take them from Mrs Merkel ?Big_G_NorthWales said:
And hand control to BrusselsAlanbrooke said:
lolBig_G_NorthWales said:Nicola on Sophy (Sky) does seem less confident than usual. She seems almost to be pleading with Theresa May to at the very least to discuss a date.
now shes apparently applying to join the EU0 -
Precisely, though most of the usual suspects have failed to grasp the point.foxinsoxuk said:
It is perfectly acceptable for people to change their minds on an issue, as indeed Mrs May did over Brexit. A year ago she was a Remainer. Presumably Farron does not feel the same over the monarchy that he once did.View_From_Cumbria said:
Actually I have read, and re-read every word. I even think I understand what he is trying to say. I doubt also there are many interviews with Mr Farron which I have not listened to. However, the article, like Mr Farron's ad hominen attack on Theresa May scheduled for this morning is founded upon a premis which I do not recognise. The fact is the British people did know what they were doing when they entered the polling booths last June. I have yet to hear a convincing argument that any LEAVE voters did not know what they were voting for. It is only ever REMAIN voters that say they did not understand.SouthamObserver said:
It's amazing the number of people that comment on Alastair Meeks pieces without (1) reading them; or (2) understanding them.View_From_Cumbria said:
Yesterday Tim Farron was awarded the "Remoaner of the Year" award. Is this article Mr Meeks's attempt to get that decision overturned ?MonikerDiCanio said:
An excruciating performance by Meeks. I felt like Dustin Hoffman in the dentist's chair after a couple of sentences.felix said:So many words to say so little.
Mr Farron has always bent the truth. In 1997 he was sacked by the leader of Lancashire CC Lib Dems for refusing to stand during the loyal toast at a civic function. Today he is claiming patriotism. Journalists - ask him about that civic function in 1997 !
As Alastair Meeks points out she has no legislative restraint on changing her mind again.0 -
I hope you are right, but I regret to say I’m less optimistic.DavidL said:
The deal with the EU is being enormously exaggerated in its importance. In reality, post Brexit, we will struggle to tell the difference on a day to day basis. I am confident that we will have tariff free trade, that we will get equivalence to regulation in financial services, that there will be some sort of fast track for EU citizens who want to come here making it easier for them than it is for other parts of the world, that those already here will have unqualified rights to remain, that there will be things in the deal that upset some Brexiteers and some remainers but the majority of us will accept it and move on.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I am convinced that when TM gets into the real deal she will not even take into account the so called hard Brexit. She will be seeking a compromise that may not suit the remainers but will not be anywhere near the so called hard Brexiteers.DavidL said:This is just a bizarre thread header. Does Alastair seriously think that the House of Commons will not debate every aspect of any potential deal with the EU? May has to remember, as the late, great Iain M Banks put it, where the off switch is. If her approach to these negotiations does not meet the approval of the House of Commons she can be removed, just like Chamberlain was.
If you are wondering where these different views and approaches might come from try reading the Evening Standard. I hear they have a new editor.
However, her starting point absolutely has to be a hard Brexit as anything less would show weakness.
Of course the initial deal is just the start and our relationship with the EU will continue to evolve and develop over time for as long as that Institution exists.0 -
LOL, Lord Fontelroy mauls SOCharles said:
I don't think SO is really a remoaner.JonnyJimmy said:I'm 'Remoaner' really cuts it anymore for describing those like SO and Meeks.
I reckon Contimentalist is a better fit
He's just a chronic whinger. If it wasn't this it would be something else...0 -
O/T: Trump seems to have settled into a persistent negative rating, even with the usually favourable Rasmussen:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/president_trump_job_approval-6179.html
Early days still, of course, but he'd probably concede privately himself that it's been a rocky start.0 -
I am a "Liegance Jacobite" as espoused by Sir Ian Moncreiffe of that Ilk :Ishmael_Z said:
But equally unlikely to regard toasting the House of Hanover as patriotic.Theuniondivvie said:
Old school 17th century tho'?Ishmael_Z said:
I believe JackW is a Jacobite.Theuniondivvie said:
*excepting those still living in the 18th century.JackW said:
Patriotism and the loyal toast are not the same thing.View_From_Cumbria said:Mr Farron has always bent the truth. In 1997 he was sacked by the leader of Lancashire CC Lib Dems for refusing to stand during the loyal toast at a civic function. Today he is claiming patriotism. Journalists - ask him about that civic function in 1997 !
From Wiki :
In his book The Highland Clans, Iain Moncreiffe of that Ilk claimed that Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom "is the lawful Jacobite sovereign of this realm". Moncreiffe made the following argument:
"... by the fourteenth century it had become common law (in both England and Scotland) that a person who was not born in the liegeance of the Sovereign, nor naturalised, could not have the capacity to succeed as an heir .... In Scotland, this law was modified in favour of the French from the sixteenth century, but was otherwise rigorously applied until the Whig Revolution of 1688, after which it was gradually done away with by the mid-nineteenth century. It was precisely because of this law that Queen Anne found it necessary to pass a special Act of Parliament naturalising all alien-born potential royal heirs under her Act of Settlement of the throne. But, of course, from the Jacobite point of view, no new statute could be passed after 1688 .... The nearest lawful heir of the Cardinal York in 1807 was, in fact, curiously enough, King George III himself, who had been born in England (and therefore in the technical liegance of James VIII)."
............................................................................................
The Jacobite line from 1685 was :
1685-1702 James II & VII
1702-1766 James III & VIII
1766-1788 Charles III
1788-1807 Henry IX & I
1807-1820 George I
1820-1830 George II
1830-1837 William IV & II
1837-1901 Victoria
1901-1910 Edward VII & I
1910-1936 George III
1936-1936 Edward VIII & II
1936-1952 George IV
1952- Elizabeth II
From the present monarch the higher regnal number from either English or Scottish monarchs takes precedence.
0 -
foxinsoxuk said:
It would be coupled with a UK guarantee of existing EU citizens right in the UK which would be reciprocated for UK citizens in the EU plus Spain is hardly going to want to lose the wealth UK expat bring in but a job offer requirement is the absolute maximum May can offer whilst respecting the Leave voteHYUFD said:
Such a job offer residence requirement would not work well for British pensioners in the EU.foxinsoxuk said:
The maximum May will likely be able to offer the EU is a job offer requirement for EU migrants to the UK and some limited budget contributions continuing to ScotsAlanbrooke said:
The PR nature of German democracy means that there will be a coalition, but it also means one that is even more pro EU than Merkel.foxinsoxuk said:
I'm not so sureAlanbrooke said:
The pictures an coverage of the Leader of the Free world meeting Donald Trump last week will have done her a power of good. She is going to have a good election outcome.Casino_Royale said:
Merkel has been in power longer than Thatcher, and has split her own voting coalition by tacking to the Left in office.Alanbrooke said:Merkel heading for retirement
red red green now heading for a majority ( SPD, the Left, Greens )
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/bundestagswahl/rot-rot-gruen-erreicht-laut-umfrage-knappe-mehrheit-14931775.html
So Schulz will probably win, and he e grand coalition 2
she has managed to get herself in a position where the Left can form a government by itself, and she can only govern with SPD support. That's not a strong hand. She will need a big shift in the opinion polls to be Chancellor again and just maybe the "time for a change" theme is starting to work against her. So far Schulz big attraction has been he's a fresh face.
Negotiations are going nowhere, and never could. Rock hard Brexit is the destination and we shouldn’t waste too much time planning for anything else.
As I pointed out earlier, the status of non EU non EEA nationals is a competence of national governments not the European parliament. Unless we remain in the EEA, the EU cannot enforce residency rights for British citizens in the EU. We could have 27 bilateral arrangements, I suppose.0 -
As a devotee of fine language, I admire this phrase: Those Leavers who are regarded on their own side as intellectuals have often stressed...
On the topic, I am not convinced committed Leavers will think the actual Brexit a betrayal. You don't take into account the human capacity to rationalise outcomes previously dismissed. In the several months since the referendum we have seen people move without missing a heart beat from
"Of course the EU will keep giving us all the things we want. They would be acting against their own interests if they didn't"
to
"Who needs that stuff anyway?"0 -
Morning Malc - I know we differ on Scotland but Nicola on Sky today does seem far from convincing. To be fair she is not hectoring but at times she is far from clear and even looks a bit uncertain.malcolmg said:
Garbage, Scotland has been ignored for years, it is being ignored now and will be ignored in the future. That si guaranteed under Tories. We will see a referendum for sure and May's Mugabe announcement will only strengthen public opinion further.Charles said:
Sturgeon has undermined her credibility - the trick was to continually to say that you might demand one but not actually to do so. Now she's got a bit for "grievance" but nothing of practical value.foxinsoxuk said:@Charles
at 0723 I posted "There are 28 Parliaments in the EU that have the right to discuss and reject any Brexit deal mid negotiations. Those are the ones of the EU27 and of the EU itself. The only one that does not have that right is Westminster. Tis a strange sort of control that we have taken back."
This is correct. While the final Brexit is done by QMV, though perhaps needing unanimity on trade issues, Any EU27 parliament can debate the negotiations and direct their negotiating team as they see fit. Except Westminster.
Sturgeon has played a blinder, whatever the status of #indyref2, May cannot ignore the Scottish interest.
And May won't ignore the Scottish interest. She is PM of the UK and will weigh the interest alongside the interests of, say, Herefordshire, and determine the right way forward for the UK a a whole. (I can understand why ScotNats might not think this works - I wasn't happy with the Mercosur negotiations, for instance, which were in the EU's interest but were negative for the UK - but they had a referendum on leaving and were denied)0 -
I don't understand this bit.RochdalePioneers said:
The cost of WTO tariffs is broadly similar to what we pay the EU, so no £350m a week
WTO tariffs aren't stumped out by government in the same way EU contributions are.0 -
Isn’t it Elizabeth I?JackW said:
I am a "Liegance Jacobite" as espoused by Sir Ian Moncreiffe of that Ilk :Ishmael_Z said:
But equally unlikely to regard toasting the House of Hanover as patriotic.Theuniondivvie said:
Old school 17th century tho'?Ishmael_Z said:
I believe JackW is a Jacobite.Theuniondivvie said:
*excepting those still living in the 18th century.JackW said:
Patriotism and the loyal toast are not the same thing.View_From_Cumbria said:Mr Farron has always bent the truth. In 1997 he was sacked by the leader of Lancashire CC Lib Dems for refusing to stand during the loyal toast at a civic function. Today he is claiming patriotism. Journalists - ask him about that civic function in 1997 !
From Wiki :
In his book The Highland Clans, Iain Moncreiffe of that Ilk claimed that Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom "is the lawful Jacobite sovereign of this realm". Moncreiffe made the following argument:
"... by the fourteenth century it had become common law (in both England and Scotland) that a person who was not born in the liegeance of the Sovereign, nor naturalised, could not have the capacity to succeed as an heir .... In Scotland, this law was modified in favour of the French from the sixteenth century, but was otherwise rigorously applied until the Whig Revolution of 1688, after which it was gradually done away with by the mid-nineteenth century. It was precisely because of this law that Queen Anne found it necessary to pass a special Act of Parliament naturalising all alien-born potential royal heirs under her Act of Settlement of the throne. But, of course, from the Jacobite point of view, no new statute could be passed after 1688 .... The nearest lawful heir of the Cardinal York in 1807 was, in fact, curiously enough, King George III himself, who had been born in England (and therefore in the technical liegance of James VIII)."
............................................................................................
The Jacobite line from 1685 was :
1685-1702 James II & VII
1702-1766 James III & VIII
1766-1788 Charles III
1788-1807 Henry IX & I
1807-1820 George I
1820-1830 George II
1830-1837 William IV & II
1837-1901 Victoria
1901-1910 Edward VII & I
1910-1936 George III
1936-1936 Edward VIII & II
1936-1952 George IV
1952- Elizabeth II
From the present monarch the higher regnal number from either English or Scottish monarchs takes precedence.0 -
You are better sticking to expensive restaurants, first class flights and how many millions you make as you normally do.Charles said:
No - there are lots of things I don't have a view on such as the future of the Labour Party.Jonathan said:
Maybe he just doesn't agree with you?Charles said:
I don't think SO is really a remoaner.JonnyJimmy said:I'm 'Remoaner' really cuts it anymore for describing those like SO and Meeks.
I reckon Contimentalist is a better fit
He's just a chronic whinger. If it wasn't this it would be something else...
But he seems to tend towards a gloomy view of the future on everything that I can remember0 -
The Democrats will likely take the House with Trump that lowNickPalmer said:O/T: Trump seems to have settled into a persistent negative rating, even with the usually favourable Rasmussen:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/president_trump_job_approval-6179.html
Early days still, of course, but he'd probably concede privately himself that it's been a rocky start.0 -
Or even JunckersAlanbrooke said:
why take orders from Mrs May when you can take them from Mrs Merkel ?Big_G_NorthWales said:
And hand control to BrusselsAlanbrooke said:
lolBig_G_NorthWales said:Nicola on Sophy (Sky) does seem less confident than usual. She seems almost to be pleading with Theresa May to at the very least to discuss a date.
now shes apparently applying to join the EU0 -
Trump lies. We rush over to apologise.
https://twitter.com/thesundaytimes/status/8433727246302904320 -
Nonsense - parliament can change or take away May's control tomorrow - just needs a simple majority although sadly the usual suspects choose to ignore this.OllyT said:
Precisely, though most of the usual suspects have failed to grasp the point.foxinsoxuk said:
It is perfectly acceptable for people to change their minds on an issue, as indeed Mrs May did over Brexit. A year ago she was a Remainer. Presumably Farron does not feel the same over the monarchy that he once did.View_From_Cumbria said:
Actually I have read, and re-read every word. I even think I understand what he is trying to say. I doubt also there are many interviews with Mr Farron which I have not listened to. However, the article, like Mr Farron's ad hominen attack on Theresa May scheduled for this morning is founded upon a premis which I do not recognise. The fact is the British people did know what they were doing when they entered the polling booths last June. I have yet to hear a convincing argument that any LEAVE voters did not know what they were voting for. It is only ever REMAIN voters that say they did not understand.SouthamObserver said:
It's amazing the number of people that comment on Alastair Meeks pieces without (1) reading them; or (2) understanding them.View_From_Cumbria said:
Yesterday Tim Farron was awarded the "Remoaner of the Year" award. Is this article Mr Meeks's attempt to get that decision overturned ?MonikerDiCanio said:
An excruciating performance by Meeks. I felt like Dustin Hoffman in the dentist's chair after a couple of sentences.felix said:So many words to say so little.
Mr Farron has always bent the truth. In 1997 he was sacked by the leader of Lancashire CC Lib Dems for refusing to stand during the loyal toast at a civic function. Today he is claiming patriotism. Journalists - ask him about that civic function in 1997 !
As Alastair Meeks points out she has no legislative restraint on changing her mind again.0 -
On the other hand we could CHOOSE not to get AIDS in the first place. Giving your company lots of lovely dividends from the bankruptcy-inducing medication I would need isn't my top motivation!Charles said:
That's great news. We know how to manage AIDS with no loss of function. And I'm very hopeful about some scientific work that a company I'm invested in is doingDura_Ace said:
The post Brexit UK economy will be more like getting AIDS than being killed instantly in a motorway pile up.0 -
How does she get a snap election , by saying her government is crap and we need a new one. What is all the bollox about fixed term parliaments about.RochdalePioneers said:An election in May 2017 would see the Tories winning a majority of Thatcheresque proportions. No risk at all. And election in May 2020 takes the risk that there has been no hard Brexit shock because if anything has gone wrong - the deal involved compromise and brought Dacre's wrath to bear, or the deal involved no compromise and has brought about economic shock which has a lot of leave voters saying "I didn't vote for that".
For me a snap election now buys her not just a thumping majority but insurance in a few years.0 -
Sending Boris as an emollient sounds the best possible idea!SouthamObserver said:Trump lies. We rush over to apologise.
https://twitter.com/thesundaytimes/status/8433727246302904320 -
Unless a government were foolish enough to promise to compensate or recompense companies for having to pay them?MyBurningEars said:
I don't understand this bit.RochdalePioneers said:
The cost of WTO tariffs is broadly similar to what we pay the EU, so no £350m a week
WTO tariffs aren't stumped out by government in the same way EU contributions are.0 -
Thing is, as the EEC evolved into the EU and that EU now evolves into a federal country, it becomes harder to either join or leave the entity.OldKingCole said:
Rather like some people went on fighting the 1975 Referendum.CornishBlue said:
The Meeks of this world will still be fighting the referendum in decades to come, much like some are still fighting the 1983 election against Fatcher. Sad really.DavidL said:This is just a bizarre thread header. Does Alastair seriously think that the House of Commons will not debate every aspect of any potential deal with the EU? May has to remember, as the late, great Iain M Banks put it, where the off switch is. If her approach to these negotiations does not meet the approval of the House of Commons she can be removed, just like Chamberlain was.
If you are wondering where these different views and approaches might come from try reading the Evening Standard. I hear they have a new editor.0 -
If he can stop her sounding off then he must have improved a million fold. It never usually matters to her.Big_G_NorthWales said:Marr's interview with Ruth Davidson is shameful and irritating. He will not let her talk without continual interruptions by him throughout. He is as bad with this interview as I have seen him.
0 -
Panelbase Scotland today No 56% Yes 44% and only 32% want an indyref2 now before Brexitmalcolmg said:
Garbage, Scotland has been ignored for years, it is being ignored now and will be ignored in the future. That si guaranteed under Tories. We will see a referendum for sure and May's Mugabe announcement will only strengthen public opinion further.Charles said:
Sturgeon has undermined her credibility - the trick was to continually to say that you might demand one but not actually to do so. Now she's got a bit for "grievance" but nothing of practical value.foxinsoxuk said:@Charles
at 0723 I posted "There are 28 Parliaments in the EU that have the right to discuss and reject any Brexit deal mid negotiations. Those are the ones of the EU27 and of the EU itself. The only one that does not have that right is Westminster. Tis a strange sort of control that we have taken back."
This is correct. While the final Brexit is done by QMV, though perhaps needing unanimity on trade issues, Any EU27 parliament can debate the negotiations and direct their negotiating team as they see fit. Except Westminster.
Sturgeon has played a blinder, whatever the status of #indyref2, May cannot ignore the Scottish interest.
And May won't ignore the Scottish interest. She is PM of the UK and will weigh the interest alongside the interests of, say, Herefordshire, and determine the right way forward for the UK a a whole. (I can understand why ScotNats might not think this works - I wasn't happy with the Mercosur negotiations, for instance, which were in the EU's interest but were negative for the UK - but they had a referendum on leaving and were denied)
https://mobile.twitter.com/NCPoliticsUK/status/843261614136659969
https://mobile.twitter.com/NCPoliticsUK/status/8432609389334077440 -
Surely SNP would vote for one - they aren't scared are they?malcolmg said:
How does she get a snap election , by saying her government is crap and we need a new one. What is all the bollox about fixed term parliaments about.RochdalePioneers said:An election in May 2017 would see the Tories winning a majority of Thatcheresque proportions. No risk at all. And election in May 2020 takes the risk that there has been no hard Brexit shock because if anything has gone wrong - the deal involved compromise and brought Dacre's wrath to bear, or the deal involved no compromise and has brought about economic shock which has a lot of leave voters saying "I didn't vote for that".
For me a snap election now buys her not just a thumping majority but insurance in a few years.0 -
And the same thing for Scotland vis a vis the Union?DavidL said:
The deal with the EU is being enormously exaggerated in its importance. In reality, post Brexit, we will struggle to tell the difference on a day to day basis. I am confident that we will have tariff free trade, that we will get equivalence to regulation in financial services, that there will be some sort of fast track for EU citizens who want to come here making it easier for them than it is for other parts of the world, that those already here will have unqualified rights to remain, that there will be things in the deal that upset some Brexiteers and some remainers but the majority of us will accept it and move on.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I am convinced that when TM gets into the real deal she will not even take into account the so called hard Brexit. She will be seeking a compromise that may not suit the remainers but will not be anywhere near the so called hard Brexiteers.DavidL said:This is just a bizarre thread header. Does Alastair seriously think that the House of Commons will not debate every aspect of any potential deal with the EU? May has to remember, as the late, great Iain M Banks put it, where the off switch is. If her approach to these negotiations does not meet the approval of the House of Commons she can be removed, just like Chamberlain was.
If you are wondering where these different views and approaches might come from try reading the Evening Standard. I hear they have a new editor.
However, her starting point absolutely has to be a hard Brexit as anything less would show weakness.
Of course the initial deal is just the start and our relationship with the EU will continue to evolve and develop over time for as long as that Institution exists.0 -
Providing narcissistic supply is the new special relationship.SouthamObserver said:Trump lies. We rush over to apologise.
0 -
No matter your views of the person being interviewed they should be permitted to provide their view without constant interruptions from the interviewermalcolmg said:
If he can stop her sounding off then he must have improved a million fold. It never usually matters to her.Big_G_NorthWales said:Marr's interview with Ruth Davidson is shameful and irritating. He will not let her talk without continual interruptions by him throughout. He is as bad with this interview as I have seen him.
0 -
Mr. Glenn, you don't think the UK was like that before?
0 -
I knew it was Meeks just by reading the headline
0 -
So 50% want a referendum at the same time Sturgeon does or earlier.HYUFD said:
Panelbase Scotland today No 56% Yes 44% and only 32% want an indyref2 now before Brexitmalcolmg said:
Garbage, Scotland has been ignored for years, it is being ignored now and will be ignored in the future. That si guaranteed under Tories. We will see a referendum for sure and May's Mugabe announcement will only strengthen public opinion further.Charles said:
Sturgeon has undermined her credibility - the trick was to continually to say that you might demand one but not actually to do so. Now she's got a bit for "grievance" but nothing of practical value.foxinsoxuk said:@Charles
at 0723 I posted "There are 28 Parliaments in the EU that have the right to discuss and reject any Brexit deal mid negotiations. Those are the ones of the EU27 and of the EU itself. The only one that does not have that right is Westminster. Tis a strange sort of control that we have taken back."
This is correct. While the final Brexit is done by QMV, though perhaps needing unanimity on trade issues, Any EU27 parliament can debate the negotiations and direct their negotiating team as they see fit. Except Westminster.
Sturgeon has played a blinder, whatever the status of #indyref2, May cannot ignore the Scottish interest.
And May won't ignore the Scottish interest. She is PM of the UK and will weigh the interest alongside the interests of, say, Herefordshire, and determine the right way forward for the UK a a whole. (I can understand why ScotNats might not think this works - I wasn't happy with the Mercosur negotiations, for instance, which were in the EU's interest but were negative for the UK - but they had a referendum on leaving and were denied)
https://mobile.twitter.com/NCPoliticsUK/status/843261614136659969
https://mobile.twitter.com/NCPoliticsUK/status/8432609389334077440 -
Not so. Hence my last note.OldKingCole said:Isn’t it Elizabeth I?
When the Queen's father died it was noted that the new monarch would be the first Elizabeth of Scotland. Accordingly the convention of higher regnal number was instituted. Thus the future King William will be William V whereas in the future we would have David III, Alexander IV or Macbeth II ...
.... from the Scottish line. 0 -
G, she has to be seen to have tried everything to placate the wicked witch of Westminster. As it will fall on deaf ears , the shackles will come off.Big_G_NorthWales said:Nicola on Sophy (Sky) does seem less confident than usual. She seems almost to be pleading with Theresa May to at the very least to discuss a date.
0 -
Even if this were done in a few key industries (not saying it should be!), I have seen no serious suggestion of the government paying all tariffs for everyone.IanB2 said:
Unless a government were foolish enough to promise to compensate or recompense companies for having to pay them?MyBurningEars said:
I don't understand this bit.RochdalePioneers said:
The cost of WTO tariffs is broadly similar to what we pay the EU, so no £350m a week
WTO tariffs aren't stumped out by government in the same way EU contributions are.
I only picked this up because this seems to be a surprisingly common misunderstanding, that governments pay tariffs.0 -
We badly need immigration.HYUFD said:
I can see a Sturgeon platform of 'vote Yes for unlimited migration from Eastern Europe and a few City bankers moving to Edinburgh' sweeping all before it, yes!RochdalePioneers said:We know it will be hard Brexit and that's not because of Jacob Rees-Mogg and the Daily Mail. The EU are worried about the fracturing of their project and the rise of fascism. Set aside the practical reality that negotiating a deal in 18 months isn't just impossible it's insane, they can't and won't grant a deal. If they did it might encourage others to consider their own position.
So unfortunately for Blighty the deal we will be offered is va te faire foutre, and so off we go to WTO land. In a few years time things might settle back down, but thats like saying that after a big asteroid crashes into the earth things might settle back down.
The cost of WTO tariffs is broadly similar to what we pay the EU, so no £350m a week for the NHS. But it's the shock impact to industry that will do the terminal damage - a British car industry reliant on parts being shipped to and from the EU to be built here won't be viable if BMW have to pay an import tariff to the EU to ship Hams Hall engines to Germany for gearbox fitting then a tariff to the UK to install them in a Mini. Yes in the long term a supply chain can be set up. But in practice it will be the same impact as privatisation had on the train building industry - its swift closure.
And the same with banking, where it's even easier to up sticks and move. This I believe is the Trump card Sturgeon intends to play. All the way through our "negotiations" the EU will tell us not to go. They'll say stay in the market are you mad? So Sturgeon will agree her own deal - an independent Scotland in the EEA via EFTA, they'll give her transitional access, and so she'll have her referendum next autumn whether London likes it or not. And the carrot? No need to move to Frankfurt Mr Barclays, just come to Edinburgh.0 -
They mean less government income.MyBurningEars said:
I don't understand this bit.RochdalePioneers said:
The cost of WTO tariffs is broadly similar to what we pay the EU, so no £350m a week
WTO tariffs aren't stumped out by government in the same way EU contributions are.
0 -
LOL, just as UK did for over 40 yearsBig_G_NorthWales said:
And hand control to BrusselsAlanbrooke said:
lolBig_G_NorthWales said:Nicola on Sophy (Sky) does seem less confident than usual. She seems almost to be pleading with Theresa May to at the very least to discuss a date.
now shes apparently applying to join the EU0 -
Alanbrooke said:
if remainers are so stonkingly clever, how come they lost ?Chris_A said:Have to admit I'd never thought until now of the Remainer May strategy to be one of bluff and double bluff in order to get her own way but such is the intellect of your average Leaver, who would make Worzel Gummidge look like an intellect giant, it's quite possible that she's run rings round them to ensure that the country isn't damaged unnecessarily.
I mean by your own admission you only had to bamboozle a bunch of thickos and you couldnt, so what does that say about you ?
Campaigns and parties that play to voters baser instincts often succeed in the short term. history is littered with examples.0 -
In sales, that's known as the "presumptive close". "How would you like to pay?" presumes you have decided to buy. Nicola Sturgeon at this stage is pushing for the validity of having a referendum a couple of years after the last one and without her committing definitely to a straight choice between the UK and the EU. If the argument is about dates, that presumes a decision to have a referendum.Big_G_NorthWales said:Nicola on Sophy (Sky) does seem less confident than usual. She seems almost to be pleading with Theresa May to at the very least to discuss a date.
0 -
FF43 said:
As a devotee of fine language, I admire this phrase: Those Leavers who are regarded on their own side as intellectuals have often stressed...
On the topic, I am not convinced committed Leavers will think the actual Brexit a betrayal. You don't take into account the human capacity to rationalise outcomes previously dismissed. In the several months since the referendum we have seen people move without missing a heart beat from
"Of course the EU will keep giving us all the things we want. They would be acting against their own interests if they didn't"
to
"Who needs that stuff anyway?"
There is nothing we can do except wait for reality to kick Leavers in the shins. When that happens, the fingers they have wedged firmly in their ears will not matter.
We are heading for WTO unless something truly monumental happens0 -
This is true. But you don't calculate based on looking at the size of the tariffs and treating it as a direct government expense.SouthamObserver said:
They mean less government income.MyBurningEars said:
I don't understand this bit.RochdalePioneers said:
The cost of WTO tariffs is broadly similar to what we pay the EU, so no £350m a week
WTO tariffs aren't stumped out by government in the same way EU contributions are.0 -
Quite, and Lord knows she gave him plenty of one rule for brexit, another for sindy type nonsense to challenge. I don't find her a particularly serious politicisn tbh.malcolmg said:
If he can stop her sounding off then he must have improved a million fold. It never usually matters to her.Big_G_NorthWales said:Marr's interview with Ruth Davidson is shameful and irritating. He will not let her talk without continual interruptions by him throughout. He is as bad with this interview as I have seen him.
0 -
@HYFUD
You miss my point. The EU cannot guarantee the rights of UK nationals in the EU post Brexit (unless we remain in the EEA with all that means) as this is a national rather than an EU competence.
It would be a Spanish govt decision to keep the Costa Geriatrica, not an EU one.0 -
It's not just tariffs. Leaving the Single Market and Customs Union has the potential to considerably increase the cost of doing business - both financially and in terms of time.DavidL said:
The deal with the EU is being enormously exaggerated in its importance. In reality, post Brexit, we will struggle to tell the difference on a day to day basis. I am confident that we will have tariff free trade, that we will get equivalence to regulation in financial services, that there will be some sort of fast track for EU citizens who want to come here making it easier for them than it is for other parts of the world, that those already here will have unqualified rights to remain, that there will be things in the deal that upset some Brexiteers and some remainers but the majority of us will accept it and move on.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I am convinced that when TM gets into the real deal she will not even take into account the so called hard Brexit. She will be seeking a compromise that may not suit the remainers but will not be anywhere near the so called hard Brexiteers.DavidL said:This is just a bizarre thread header. Does Alastair seriously think that the House of Commons will not debate every aspect of any potential deal with the EU? May has to remember, as the late, great Iain M Banks put it, where the off switch is. If her approach to these negotiations does not meet the approval of the House of Commons she can be removed, just like Chamberlain was.
If you are wondering where these different views and approaches might come from try reading the Evening Standard. I hear they have a new editor.
However, her starting point absolutely has to be a hard Brexit as anything less would show weakness.
Of course the initial deal is just the start and our relationship with the EU will continue to evolve and develop over time for as long as that Institution exists.
0 -
You do and you will have it post Brexit but subject to work visasmalcolmg said:
We badly need immigration.HYUFD said:
I can see a Sturgeon platform of 'vote Yes for unlimited migration from Eastern Europe and a few City bankers moving to Edinburgh' sweeping all before it, yes!RochdalePioneers said:We know it will be hard Brexit and that's not because of Jacob Rees-Mogg and the Daily Mail. The EU are worried about the fracturing of their project and the rise of fascism. Set aside the practical reality that negotiating a deal in 18 months isn't just impossible it's insane, they can't and won't grant a deal. If they did it might encourage others to consider their own position.
So unfortunately for Blighty the deal we will be offered is va te faire foutre, and so off we go to WTO land. In a few years time things might settle back down, but thats like saying that after a big asteroid crashes into the earth things might settle back down.
The cost of WTO tariffs is broadly similar to what we pay the EU, so no £350m a week for the NHS. But it's the shock impact to industry that will do the terminal damage - a British car industry reliant on parts being shipped to and from the EU to be built here won't be viable if BMW have to pay an import tariff to the EU to ship Hams Hall engines to Germany for gearbox fitting then a tariff to the UK to install them in a Mini. Yes in the long term a supply chain can be set up. But in practice it will be the same impact as privatisation had on the train building industry - its swift closure.
And the same with banking, where it's even easier to up sticks and move. This I believe is the Trump card Sturgeon intends to play. All the way through our "negotiations" the EU will tell us not to go. They'll say stay in the market are you mad? So Sturgeon will agree her own deal - an independent Scotland in the EEA via EFTA, they'll give her transitional access, and so she'll have her referendum next autumn whether London likes it or not. And the carrot? No need to move to Frankfurt Mr Barclays, just come to Edinburgh.0 -
Thanks for taking a break from telling everyone why Tessy is right and everyone else is wrong to tell us that.Big_G_NorthWales said:
He is the original cause of Brexit and is as arrogant as ever - 'I am right and everyone else is wrong 'Monksfield said:Jeebs, like him or hate him, Blair would run rings around May at PMQs.
0 -
G, now you are being silly, Scotland gets a block grant , they are unable to overspend or have a deficit. Only the UK can have a deficit as it controls all the money.Big_G_NorthWales said:Nicola just said she is not responsible for Scotland's enormous deficit - so her overspending is not her fault
0 -
By the way, is there any sign of the future Dutch government's likely make-up? I know it can take months, but a glance at De Telegraaf website has nothing about it at all, except for a minor "PdvA licks wounds' story. Has everyone paused to have a think?0
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ah yes, blame the voters, not your own cack handed mismanagementOllyT said:Alanbrooke said:
if remainers are so stonkingly clever, how come they lost ?Chris_A said:Have to admit I'd never thought until now of the Remainer May strategy to be one of bluff and double bluff in order to get her own way but such is the intellect of your average Leaver, who would make Worzel Gummidge look like an intellect giant, it's quite possible that she's run rings round them to ensure that the country isn't damaged unnecessarily.
I mean by your own admission you only had to bamboozle a bunch of thickos and you couldnt, so what does that say about you ?
Campaigns and parties that play to voters baser instincts often succeed in the short term. history is littered with examples.0 -
It should be.OldKingCole said:
Isn’t it Elizabeth I?JackW said:
I am a "Liegance Jacobite" as espoused by Sir Ian Moncreiffe of that Ilk :Ishmael_Z said:
But equally unlikely to regard toasting the House of Hanover as patriotic.Theuniondivvie said:
Old school 17th century tho'?Ishmael_Z said:
I believe JackW is a Jacobite.Theuniondivvie said:
*excepting those still living in the 18th century.JackW said:
Patriotism and the loyal toast are not the same thing.View_From_Cumbria said:Mr Farron has always bent the truth. In 1997 he was sacked by the leader of Lancashire CC Lib Dems for refusing to stand during the loyal toast at a civic function. Today he is claiming patriotism. Journalists - ask him about that civic function in 1997 !
From Wiki :
In his book The Highland Clans, Iain Moncreiffe of that Ilk claimed that Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom "is the lawful Jacobite sovereign of this realm". Moncreiffe made the following argument:
"... by the fourteenth century it had become common law (in both England and Scotland) that a person who was not born in the liegeance of the Sovereign, nor naturalised, could not have the capacity to succeed as an heir .... In Scotland, this law was modified in favour of the French from the sixteenth century, but was otherwise rigorously applied until the Whig Revolution of 1688, after which it was gradually done away with by the mid-nineteenth century. It was precisely because of this law that Queen Anne found it necessary to pass a special Act of Parliament naturalising all alien-born potential royal heirs under her Act of Settlement of the throne. But, of course, from the Jacobite point of view, no new statute could be passed after 1688 .... The nearest lawful heir of the Cardinal York in 1807 was, in fact, curiously enough, King George III himself, who had been born in England (and therefore in the technical liegance of James VIII)."
............................................................................................
The Jacobite line from 1685 was :
1685-1702 James II & VII
1702-1766 James III & VIII
1766-1788 Charles III
1788-1807 Henry IX & I
1807-1820 George I
1820-1830 George II
1830-1837 William IV & II
1837-1901 Victoria
1901-1910 Edward VII & I
1910-1936 George III
1936-1936 Edward VIII & II
1936-1952 George IV
1952- Elizabeth II
From the present monarch the higher regnal number from either English or Scottish monarchs takes precedence.0 -
Why ?malcolmg said:
We badly need immigration.HYUFD said:
I can see a Sturgeon platform of 'vote Yes for unlimited migration from Eastern Europe and a few City bankers moving to Edinburgh' sweeping all before it, yes!RochdalePioneers said:We know it will be hard Brexit and that's not because of Jacob Rees-Mogg and the Daily Mail. The EU are worried about the fracturing of their project and the rise of fascism. Set aside the practical reality that negotiating a deal in 18 months isn't just impossible it's insane, they can't and won't grant a deal. If they did it might encourage others to consider their own position.
So unfortunately for Blighty the deal we will be offered is va te faire foutre, and so off we go to WTO land. In a few years time things might settle back down, but thats like saying that after a big asteroid crashes into the earth things might settle back down.
The cost of WTO tariffs is broadly similar to what we pay the EU, so no £350m a week for the NHS. But it's the shock impact to industry that will do the terminal damage - a British car industry reliant on parts being shipped to and from the EU to be built here won't be viable if BMW have to pay an import tariff to the EU to ship Hams Hall engines to Germany for gearbox fitting then a tariff to the UK to install them in a Mini. Yes in the long term a supply chain can be set up. But in practice it will be the same impact as privatisation had on the train building industry - its swift closure.
And the same with banking, where it's even easier to up sticks and move. This I believe is the Trump card Sturgeon intends to play. All the way through our "negotiations" the EU will tell us not to go. They'll say stay in the market are you mad? So Sturgeon will agree her own deal - an independent Scotland in the EEA via EFTA, they'll give her transitional access, and so she'll have her referendum next autumn whether London likes it or not. And the carrot? No need to move to Frankfurt Mr Barclays, just come to Edinburgh.0 -
Britain's principal economic vulnerability is our large current account deficit; associated with our high household debts and spending on imported goods and services. This cannot continue indefinitely, and the currency adjustment doesn't help unless the higher prices dramatically scales back people's appetite for buying foreign stuff. Indeed concern about our ability to sustain and finance this deficit is the principal reason that the £ went down in the first place.0
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And that is why we want out Malcmalcolmg said:
LOL, just as UK did for over 40 yearsBig_G_NorthWales said:
And hand control to BrusselsAlanbrooke said:
lolBig_G_NorthWales said:Nicola on Sophy (Sky) does seem less confident than usual. She seems almost to be pleading with Theresa May to at the very least to discuss a date.
now shes apparently applying to join the EU0 -
No. The UK is a viable, albeit fairly heavily indebted country. Scotland currently isn't. The UK has a currency. Scotland doesn't. The UK has an internal, deeply integrated market of 66m people. Scotland 5.3m. The UK has a £1.7 trn sized economy. Scotland, regrettably, has a branch economy that is increasingly dependent on servicing the needs of its much larger neighbour and cannot risk any disruption to that.FF43 said:
And the same thing for Scotland vis a vis the Union?DavidL said:
The deal with the EU is being enormously exaggerated in its importance. In reality, post Brexit, we will struggle to tell the difference on a day to day basis. I am confident that we will have tariff free trade, that we will get equivalence to regulation in financial services, that there will be some sort of fast track for EU citizens who want to come here making it easier for them than it is for other parts of the world, that those already here will have unqualified rights to remain, that there will be things in the deal that upset some Brexiteers and some remainers but the majority of us will accept it and move on.Big_G_NorthWales said:DavidL said:.
Of course the initial deal is just the start and our relationship with the EU will continue to evolve and develop over time for as long as that Institution exists.
Scotland has suffered from having politicians obsessed with constitutional deckchairs for more than 30 years now with not nearly enough time, thought or energy being spent on the day job. The cumulative consequences of that failure were hidden by the success of north sea oil and the somewhat eccentric behaviour of RBS but are now increasingly exposed. Anyone serious about Scottish independence should forget this referendum nonsense and focus on our infrastructure, education, exports, private sector growth, housing, public sector efficiency, tax competitiveness, the list is almost endless.0 -
Both superior to May G, you union jack boys just do not get it.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Or even JunckersAlanbrooke said:
why take orders from Mrs May when you can take them from Mrs Merkel ?Big_G_NorthWales said:
And hand control to BrusselsAlanbrooke said:
lolBig_G_NorthWales said:Nicola on Sophy (Sky) does seem less confident than usual. She seems almost to be pleading with Theresa May to at the very least to discuss a date.
now shes apparently applying to join the EU0 -
Nope, 51% do not want one in the next few years and 18% only after Brexit negotiations concluded which will not be until the end of March 2019 at the earliestAlistair said:
So 50% want a referendum at the same time Sturgeon does or earlier.HYUFD said:
Panelbase Scotland today No 56% Yes 44% and only 32% want an indyref2 now before Brexitmalcolmg said:
Garbage, Scotland has been ignored for years, it is being ignored now and will be ignored in the future. That si guaranteed under Tories. We will see a referendum for sure and May's Mugabe announcement will only strengthen public opinion further.Charles said:
Sturgeon has undermined her credibility - the trick was to continually to say that you might demand one but not actually to do so. Now she's got a bit for "grievance" but nothing of practical value.foxinsoxuk said:@Charles
at 0723 I posted "There are 28 Parliaments in the EU that have the right to discuss and reject any Brexit deal mid negotiations. Those are the ones of the EU27 and of the EU itself. The only one that does not have that right is Westminster. Tis a strange sort of control that we have taken back."
This is correct. While the final Brexit is done by QMV, though perhaps needing unanimity on trade issues, Any EU27 parliament can debate the negotiations and direct their negotiating team as they see fit. Except Westminster.
Sturgeon has played a blinder, whatever the status of #indyref2, May cannot ignore the Scottish interest.
And May won't ignore the Scottish interest. She is PM of the UK and will weigh the interest alongside the interests of, say, Herefordshire, and determine the right way forward for the UK a a whole. (I can understand why ScotNats might not think this works - I wasn't happy with the Mercosur negotiations, for instance, which were in the EU's interest but were negative for the UK - but they had a referendum on leaving and were denied)
https://mobile.twitter.com/NCPoliticsUK/status/843261614136659969
https://mobile.twitter.com/NCPoliticsUK/status/8432609389334077440 -
We will just agree to disagree on this Malcmalcolmg said:
Both superior to May G, you union jack boys just do not get it.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Or even JunckersAlanbrooke said:
why take orders from Mrs May when you can take them from Mrs Merkel ?Big_G_NorthWales said:
And hand control to BrusselsAlanbrooke said:
lolBig_G_NorthWales said:Nicola on Sophy (Sky) does seem less confident than usual. She seems almost to be pleading with Theresa May to at the very least to discuss a date.
now shes apparently applying to join the EU0 -
I checked my family tree back a few generations yesterday. One of my great grandfathers was most likely born in Antwerp. But checking the Belgium citizenship website, it seems this doesn't make me eligible for EU citizenship ;(0
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we will still see a referendum and one poll a summer does not make, it is neck and neck.HYUFD said:
Panelbase Scotland today No 56% Yes 44% and only 32% want an indyref2 now before Brexitmalcolmg said:
Garbage, Scotland has been ignored for years, it is being ignored now and will be ignored in the future. That si guaranteed under Tories. We will see a referendum for sure and May's Mugabe announcement will only strengthen public opinion further.Charles said:
Sturgeon has undermined her credibility - the trick was to continually to say that you might demand one but not actually to do so. Now she's got a bit for "grievance" but nothing of practical value.foxinsoxuk said:@Charles
at 0723 I posted "There are 28 Parliaments in the EU that have the right to discuss and reject any Brexit deal mid negotiations. Those are the ones of the EU27 and of the EU itself. The only one that does not have that right is Westminster. Tis a strange sort of control that we have taken back."
This is correct. While the final Brexit is done by QMV, though perhaps needing unanimity on trade issues, Any EU27 parliament can debate the negotiations and direct their negotiating team as they see fit. Except Westminster.
Sturgeon has played a blinder, whatever the status of #indyref2, May cannot ignore the Scottish interest.
And May won't ignore the Scottish interest. She is PM of the UK and will weigh the interest alongside the interests of, say, Herefordshire, and determine the right way forward for the UK a a whole. (I can understand why ScotNats might not think this works - I wasn't happy with the Mercosur negotiations, for instance, which were in the EU's interest but were negative for the UK - but they had a referendum on leaving and were denied)
https://mobile.twitter.com/NCPoliticsUK/status/843261614136659969
https://mobile.twitter.com/NCPoliticsUK/status/8432609389334077440 -
Yes, well as most Brits in the EU are in Spain and they put a lot of money into the Spanish economy the Spanish government will not be kicking them outfoxinsoxuk said:@HYFUD
You miss my point. The EU cannot guarantee the rights of UK nationals in the EU post Brexit (unless we remain in the EEA with all that means) as this is a national rather than an EU competence.
It would be a Spanish govt decision to keep the Costa Geriatrica, not an EU one.0 -
Mr. G, don't be a silly sausage. We can hardly have two Elizabeth Is, can we?0
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As I said upthread, perhaps you were just arguing a bad case.OllyT said:Alanbrooke said:
if remainers are so stonkingly clever, how come they lost ?Chris_A said:Have to admit I'd never thought until now of the Remainer May strategy to be one of bluff and double bluff in order to get her own way but such is the intellect of your average Leaver, who would make Worzel Gummidge look like an intellect giant, it's quite possible that she's run rings round them to ensure that the country isn't damaged unnecessarily.
I mean by your own admission you only had to bamboozle a bunch of thickos and you couldnt, so what does that say about you ?
Campaigns and parties that play to voters baser instincts often succeed in the short term. history is littered with examples.
Or maybe the EU and/or Remainers said and did things that upset the voters.0 -
Not really. It will only affect those who import and then re-export. It will become routine. Remember that the US is our biggest single trading partner and we don't even have a trade deal with them. Businesses adapt and cope.SouthamObserver said:
It's not just tariffs. Leaving the Single Market and Customs Union has the potential to considerably increase the cost of doing business - both financially and in terms of time.DavidL said:
The deal with the EU is being enormously exaggerated in its importance. In reality, post Brexit, we will struggle to tell the difference on a day to day basis. I am confident that we will have tariff free trade, that we will get equivalence to regulation in financial services, that there will be some sort of fast track for EU citizens who want to come here making it easier for them than it is for other parts of the world, that those already here will have unqualified rights to remain, that there will be things in the deal that upset some Brexiteers and some remainers but the majority of us will accept it and move on.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I am convinced that when TM gets into the real deal she will not even take into account the so called hard Brexit. She will be seeking a compromise that may not suit the remainers but will not be anywhere near the so called hard Brexiteers.DavidL said:This is just a bizarre thread header. Does Alastair seriously think that the House of Commons will not debate every aspect of any potential deal with the EU? May has to remember, as the late, great Iain M Banks put it, where the off switch is. If her approach to these negotiations does not meet the approval of the House of Commons she can be removed, just like Chamberlain was.
If you are wondering where these different views and approaches might come from try reading the Evening Standard. I hear they have a new editor.
However, her starting point absolutely has to be a hard Brexit as anything less would show weakness.
Of course the initial deal is just the start and our relationship with the EU will continue to evolve and develop over time for as long as that Institution exists.0 -
I was asking a question , not giving an SNP speechm I have no connection to SNP and have no idea what they would do. The patter on here for months has been to deride idiots who did not realise theat we had fixed term parliaments and so could not have snap elections, I wondered what had changed that the same idiots are now stating the exact opposite.felix said:
Surely SNP would vote for one - they aren't scared are they?malcolmg said:
How does she get a snap election , by saying her government is crap and we need a new one. What is all the bollox about fixed term parliaments about.RochdalePioneers said:An election in May 2017 would see the Tories winning a majority of Thatcheresque proportions. No risk at all. And election in May 2020 takes the risk that there has been no hard Brexit shock because if anything has gone wrong - the deal involved compromise and brought Dacre's wrath to bear, or the deal involved no compromise and has brought about economic shock which has a lot of leave voters saying "I didn't vote for that".
For me a snap election now buys her not just a thumping majority but insurance in a few years.0 -
I didn't say he would be necessarily want such a response - I don't know - merely acknowledging there is a possibility of hardball vs even more hardball.HYUFD said:
What 'downright punitive response'? Schulz has met May at No10 and as far as I can see his line is identical to Merkel'skle4 said:
There hardball but then there's very hardball, backing a downright punitive response to Brexit to send a message, even if it causes someblowback. Germanys stance will be a critical factor in swaying others.HYUFD said:
Total exaggeration. Even on that poll the CDU on 33% is ahead of the SPD on 32% and the SPD would only form a government by 1% with Die Linle which they have historically ruled out as much as the CDU has with the AdD. As I have also consistently said it is complete fantasy to suggest Merkel will play soft with the UK while Schulz will play hard, everything Merkel has said is consistent with the EU line that the UK will only get a trade deal if it makes some concessions on EU immigration and maintains some continued payments to the EU. The only party which would really support Brexit UK is the AfD. In any case all 27 EU nations must agree to a deal and Germany is just one of themCasino_Royale said:
Merkel has been in power longer than Thatcher, and has split her own voting coalition by tacking to the Left in office.Alanbrooke said:Merkel heading for retirement
red red green now heading for a majority ( SPD, the Left, Greens )
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/bundestagswahl/rot-rot-gruen-erreicht-laut-umfrage-knappe-mehrheit-14931775.html
So Schulz will probably win, and he will probably play hardball with the UK.0 -
Nissan for instanceIanB2 said:
Unless a government were foolish enough to promise to compensate or recompense companies for having to pay them?MyBurningEars said:
I don't understand this bit.RochdalePioneers said:
The cost of WTO tariffs is broadly similar to what we pay the EU, so no £350m a week
WTO tariffs aren't stumped out by government in the same way EU contributions are.0 -
There is no need for the government to commit to direct payments, merely over-arching adjustments.IanB2 said:
Unless a government were foolish enough to promise to compensate or recompense companies for having to pay them?MyBurningEars said:
I don't understand this bit.RochdalePioneers said:
The cost of WTO tariffs is broadly similar to what we pay the EU, so no £350m a week
WTO tariffs aren't stumped out by government in the same way EU contributions are.
Civitas assessed EU imports as close to £13bn in tariff income for the exchequer on WTO levels. That's a very large chunk of money for the government to possess for either tax adjustments or investment.
It's not as if we do not pay tariffs anyway. The Uk exchequer already receives £3.1bn per annum in import duties (+VAT on them) from eurodiktat tariffs on global goods.
It's entirely conceivable that we could sweep away existing global tariffs where it is perceived to be beneficial.
The impact would most probably be more businesses and consumers opting for global goods at the expense of european ones.
0 -
I was being bad in putting you on the spot. More seriously, you are changing the subject here. I mostly agree with you on the poor consequences for Scotland following independence. The claim you were making for the UK and the EU is things will carry on in a benign way because that's the sensible to do. I don't actually think that the case because Brexit itself was far from sensible so why expect the other side to be entirely rational, when we aren't? But let's say it isn't like that, why wouldn't the sensible approach also apply to an independent Scotland and the new South Britain?DavidL said:
No. The UK is a viable, albeit fairly heavily indebted country. Scotland currently isn't. The UK has a currency. Scotland doesn't. The UK has an internal, deeply integrated market of 66m people. Scotland 5.3m. The UK has a £1.7 trn sized economy. Scotland, regrettably, has a branch economy that is increasingly dependent on servicing the needs of its much larger neighbour and cannot risk any disruption to that.FF43 said:
And the same thing for Scotland vis a vis the Union?DavidL said:
The deal with the EU is being enormously exaggerated in its importance. In reality, post Brexit, we will struggle to tell the difference on a day to day basis. I am confident that we will have tariff free trade, that we will get equivalence to regulation in financial services, that there will be some sort of fast track for EU citizens who want to come here making it easier for them than it is for other parts of the world, that those already here will have unqualified rights to remain, that there will be things in the deal that upset some Brexiteers and some remainers but the majority of us will accept it and move on.Big_G_NorthWales said:DavidL said:.
Of course the initial deal is just the start and our relationship with the EU will continue to evolve and develop over time for as long as that Institution exists.
Scotland has suffered from having politicians obsessed with constitutional deckchairs for more than 30 years now with not nearly enough time, thought or energy being spent on the day job. The cumulative consequences of that failure were hidden by the success of north sea oil and the somewhat eccentric behaviour of RBS but are now increasingly exposed. Anyone serious about Scottish independence should forget this referendum nonsense and focus on our infrastructure, education, exports, private sector growth, housing, public sector efficiency, tax competitiveness, the list is almost endless.0 -
Sophy Ridge (Sky on Sundays) is proving a very good political journalist with a much less confrontation technique than most and a good questioning style0
