politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » LAB’s loss to the SDP in the Greenwich by-election exactly 30
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It seems that the law is being properly applied in this case.SeanT said:
No.TheScreamingEagles said:This story embarrasses us as a country.
https://twitter.com/emilydugan/status/835894090193592321
It's not what it seems. Read the weird details. The story initially claims she spent most of her life in Britain blah blah blah, then it says very quietly "she spent the majority of the last 30 years in Singapore"
So the Home Office has judged, very understandably, that she has chosen to make Singapore her true home. Which removes her right to residency here.0 -
Very true from a remain conviction to a Brexit fundamentalist .foxinsoxuk said:
May is not a Centrist now, even if she were once. She is a political chameleon who has changed her colours to avoid standing out.Mortimer said:
Would only fill a chasm if such a chasm existed. Mrs May has tanks over the sensible centre (those not fixated on June 2016) as well as being an acceptable One Nation Tory.foxinsoxuk said:@stodge
Good header. While the SDP precedent is not good, a new "Democrats" would be a different kettle of fish. This is not 1981, and the Unions have not the strength they did then, and Corbyn is not as electable as Foot.
I could see it working, but only if over half the PLP moved over, a handful of defectors is neither here nor there.
The worst thing for Labour is turpor. They'd do better to die quickly than hang around as a rump...0 -
Add in Blair and you have the full set.another_richard said:
OsborneHYUFD said:Last June an ally of Osborne met with LD leader Tim Farron and Labour MPs to discuss the formation of a new centrist party called 'the Democrats.' Osborne is building links with Lord Mandelson and Mandelson with Clegg and the likes of Tory MP Anna Soubry to build on the success of Macron's centrist 'En Marche' party to try and defeat a hard Brexit
https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/835872422792429569
Mandelson
Clegg
Contenders for the most detested trio in British politics.0 -
I see plenty of leavers using various different XLeave terminology, so if it is a remainer invention it has been very successful. Nevertheless, if there are different deals to be struck with the EU, then whatever we call those different deals, it is perfectly democratic to argue for a particular type of deal. As long as we still leave by the end, it is simply incorrect to label a deal option not chosen by the government as undemocratic, even if those other deals are unrealistic or undesirable.isam said:
Hard brexit is an invention of people who will try to stop us leavingkle4 said:
Yes, and people are free to argue they should implement it another way. I voted Leave and would not support reversing that decision - I don't see the evidence that could justify that - but my point was Hard Brexit was a governmental choice post referendum, not a certain option as part of the referendum (in the sense of us being balloted about it). There was no democratic public vote on Hard Brexit - it doesn't require one - so it is demonstrably untrue to say campaigning against Hard Brexit is against the democratic vote, unless they also campaign to prevent Brexit, which would go against the democratic voteisam said:
There were two democratic votes, one elected a Tory govt, the other voted to Leave the EU. Now it is for the govt to implement the second decision however it sees fitkle4 said:
The story in theisam said:
Wikipedia 2050kyf_100 said:
The Democrats? "The Elites" seems more appropriate.HYUFD said:Last June an ally of Osborne met with LD leader Tim Farron and Labour MPs to discuss the formation of a new centrist party called 'the Democrats.' Osborne is building links with Lord Mandelson and Mandelson with Clegg and the likes of Tory MP Anna Soubry to build on the success of Macron's centrist 'En Marche' party to try and defeat a hard Brexit
https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/835872422792429569
"The democrats were formed in 2017 by a group of people who lost, then refused to accept the outcome of, a democratic vote"
Your bringing up the vote for a tory government would suggest anyone arguing against government policy is going against a democratic vote, which cannot have been the intention, otherwise it would be undemocratic to have an opposition! Were you assuming I was saying the Hard Brexit choice was undemocratic? Because it wasn't and isn't. It was an option open to government. Why is it undemocratic for people to try to make the government make a different choice on that, while we still leave?0 -
Even Corbyn has not yet backed hard Brexit, just triggering Article 50 and given 408 seats backed Leave the Democrats would have a hard time adding enough of those seats to the 242 which voted Remain to get an overall majoritystodge said:
The key is whether there is an appetite of an overtly pro-REMAIN Party. Given at least a third and perhaps more of Conservative voters and a good number of Labour supporters voted REMAIN, the "potential" for a pro-REMAIN party is clear.Mortimer said:
Would only fill a chasm if such a chasm existed. Mrs May has tanks over the sensible centre (those not fixated on June 2016) as well as being an acceptable One Nation Tory.foxinsoxuk said:@stodge
Good header. While the SDP precedent is not good, a new "Democrats" would be a different kettle of fish. This is not 1981, and the Unions have not the strength they did then, and Corbyn is not as electable as Foot.
I could see it working, but only if over half the PLP moved over, a handful of defectors is neither here nor there.
The worst thing for Labour is turpor. They'd do better to die quickly than hang around as a rump...
That would leave the Conservatives, Labour and UKIP scrapping over the LEAVE vote while the Democrats sailed to a landslide in 2020.
Perhaps not...but it would be May's nightmare.0 -
Though ironically probably it is because she comes from Singapore that she got deported! Many countries are near impossible to deport to, as their government makes it difficult.Sean_F said:
It seems that the law is being properly applied in this case.SeanT said:
No.TheScreamingEagles said:This story embarrasses us as a country.
https://twitter.com/emilydugan/status/835894090193592321
It's not what it seems. Read the weird details. The story initially claims she spent most of her life in Britain blah blah blah, then it says very quietly "she spent the majority of the last 30 years in Singapore"
So the Home Office has judged, very understandably, that she has chosen to make Singapore her true home. Which removes her right to residency here.
This is what immigration in the tens of thousands means. Making it much harder to emigrate here for whatever reason.0 -
Not quite Heseltine Clarke and if you could get Cameron.MarqueeMark said:
Add in Blair and you have the full set.another_richard said:
OsborneHYUFD said:Last June an ally of Osborne met with LD leader Tim Farron and Labour MPs to discuss the formation of a new centrist party called 'the Democrats.' Osborne is building links with Lord Mandelson and Mandelson with Clegg and the likes of Tory MP Anna Soubry to build on the success of Macron's centrist 'En Marche' party to try and defeat a hard Brexit
https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/835872422792429569
Mandelson
Clegg
Contenders for the most detested trio in British politics.0 -
Obviously the 'Democrats' will never be formed (and PB will be £50 richer if it is!), and while I hold no particular antipathy for any of the people listed, their presence is surely a part of that. To have any hope such a group needs a unique pitch not met by our current political offering, enough popular appeal to gain initial interest to sustain a longer campaign, and they need figureheads who can tempt people away from their current tribes/non participation, which requires some truly special political skills in party management, messaging and public engagement. I cannot think of any figurehead who could do all those things, even if they all as one burned all their bridges and tried this.0
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The potential is there, but Conservatives have shifted to Leave since June. That would leave the new party scrapping for left wing votes, plus some posh constituencies.stodge said:
The key is whether there is an appetite of an overtly pro-REMAIN Party. Given at least a third and perhaps more of Conservative voters and a good number of Labour supporters voted REMAIN, the "potential" for a pro-REMAIN party is clear.Mortimer said:
Would only fill a chasm if such a chasm existed. Mrs May has tanks over the sensible centre (those not fixated on June 2016) as well as being an acceptable One Nation Tory.foxinsoxuk said:@stodge
Good header. While the SDP precedent is not good, a new "Democrats" would be a different kettle of fish. This is not 1981, and the Unions have not the strength they did then, and Corbyn is not as electable as Foot.
I could see it working, but only if over half the PLP moved over, a handful of defectors is neither here nor there.
The worst thing for Labour is turpor. They'd do better to die quickly than hang around as a rump...
That would leave the Conservatives, Labour and UKIP scrapping over the LEAVE vote while the Democrats sailed to a landslide in 2020.
Perhaps not...but it would be May's nightmare.0 -
Could enough 5* hotels be found to accommodate them all for their annual conference?kle4 said:
Could the stratosphere survive such a heaven shattering event?HYUFD said:
Indeed and curiously enough 'the Democrats' would unite Osbornites, Blairites and Cleggites and on PB the likes of OGH and TSE and Southam Observer and William Glenn and Alistair Meeks and Kle4 in one party!kyf_100 said:
The Democrats? "The Elites" seems more appropriate.HYUFD said:Last June an ally of Osborne met with LD leader Tim Farron and Labour MPs to discuss the formation of a new centrist party called 'the Democrats.' Osborne is building links with Lord Mandelson and Mandelson with Clegg and the likes of Tory MP Anna Soubry to build on the success of Macron's centrist 'En Marche' party to try and defeat a hard Brexit
https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/8358724227924295690 -
I wonder whether she actually did make those applications. My guess is she didn't want to leave Singapore in 1998. She only came back when her husband fell ill and duty called.SeanT said:
Indeed.Charles said:
The interesting thing was that she apparently made repeated applications from 1999 until 2013 to return but they were turned down. There's something we don't know going on.LucyJones said:There is a bit more information about the Irene Clennell case here: http://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/singaporean-fighting-deportation-from-britain
As I read it, she lived in Singapore from 1992 until 2013 before returning to the UK. Her British husband gave up work last year due to ill health, so I would guess that they failed the income test.
A very sad case, but maybe not quite what was being reported by Buzzfeed?
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Surely being from Singapore she should have realised the concept of 'strict liability' ?nielh said:
So is your standpoint that you agree with every law however bizarre and inhumane the consequences are? Just because it is the law and must be applied without fear or favour? There are lots of stories going around with similar outcomes, this is not even a particularly unusual case.0 -
The problem is the amount of political ground a new party would need to cover. Difficult to see how all the personalities involved could work together. It seems that they would be better off trying to work together on an informal level across existing party lines. But the main issue is still that an overwhelming majority of labour MP's supported the labour party position on Brexit which makes a significant reallignment unlikely.Mortimer said:
Would only fill a chasm if such a chasm existed. Mrs May has tanks over the sensible centre (those not fixated on June 2016) as well as being an acceptable One Nation Tory.foxinsoxuk said:@stodge
Good header. While the SDP precedent is not good, a new "Democrats" would be a different kettle of fish. This is not 1981, and the Unions have not the strength they did then, and Corbyn is not as electable as Foot.
I could see it working, but only if over half the PLP moved over, a handful of defectors is neither here nor there.
The worst thing for Labour is turpor. They'd do better to die quickly than hang around as a rump...0 -
I agree with you on the principle. The vote was "The UK leaves the EU". Nothing more and nothing less than that. As long as that outcome is respected, parties can campaign for whatever they want. However, I never thought Soft Brexit particularly realistic, for various reasons. Leave were deliberately vague. I am guessing that if people realised that a Leave vote probably implied a Hard Brexit, it would have been enough to change a marginal Leave into a marginal Remain. But it is all hypothetical. Maybe it wouldn't have made a difference.kle4 said:
Yes, and people are free to argue they should implement it another way. I voted Leave and would not support reversing that decision - I don't see the evidence that could justify that - but my point was Hard Brexit was a governmental choice post referendum, not a certain option as part of the referendum (in the sense of us being balloted about it). There was no democratic public vote on Hard Brexit - it doesn't require one - so it is demonstrably untrue to say campaigning against Hard Brexit is against the democratic vote, unless they also campaign to prevent Brexit, which would go against the democratic vote
Your bringing up the vote for a tory government would suggest anyone arguing against government policy is going against a democratic vote, which cannot have been the intention, otherwise it would be undemocratic to have an opposition! Were you assuming I was saying the Hard Brexit choice was undemocratic? Because it wasn't and isn't. It was an option open to government. Why is it undemocratic for people to try to make the government make a different choice on that, while we still leave?
As long as we do leave, the democratic vote has been followed. Any form of leave is therefore on the table. The government has decided Hard Brexit is the best form (not to mention the easiest to achieve). They may or may not be right about that. The public as a whole might not like certain forms of leave. But if we're out, we're out, regardless of the form.0 -
In other words, the lib dems should drop the "democrat" from their name, rebrand as "the liberal elites" and hope for a few defections from Metropolitan Labour and anyone George Osborne can rustle up out from the fringes of the Tory party. Then get decimated in 2020 under FPTP, when most sensible people promptly decide that not having Corbyn or the SNP in government is more important than point scoring over a democratic decision taken four years previously.Sean_F said:
The potential is there, but Conservatives have shifted to Leave since June. That would leave the new party scrapping for left wing votes, plus some posh constituencies.stodge said:
The key is whether there is an appetite of an overtly pro-REMAIN Party. Given at least a third and perhaps more of Conservative voters and a good number of Labour supporters voted REMAIN, the "potential" for a pro-REMAIN party is clear.Mortimer said:
Would only fill a chasm if such a chasm existed. Mrs May has tanks over the sensible centre (those not fixated on June 2016) as well as being an acceptable One Nation Tory.foxinsoxuk said:@stodge
Good header. While the SDP precedent is not good, a new "Democrats" would be a different kettle of fish. This is not 1981, and the Unions have not the strength they did then, and Corbyn is not as electable as Foot.
I could see it working, but only if over half the PLP moved over, a handful of defectors is neither here nor there.
The worst thing for Labour is turpor. They'd do better to die quickly than hang around as a rump...
That would leave the Conservatives, Labour and UKIP scrapping over the LEAVE vote while the Democrats sailed to a landslide in 2020.
Perhaps not...but it would be May's nightmare.
Fair enough, it's as good a way as any of giving the undemocrats a sound kicking in 2020.0 -
Spurs win 4-0 and then a fantastic night in.... er... Bournemouth watching the pet shop boys bring the house down... it looked like a UKIP conference before they came on but the place was bouncing... superb stuff.0
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In my limited experience, immigration success depends on knowing how to play the system, connections and luck. Meeting criteria comes a distant fourth.FrancisUrquhart said:
As Charles points out, there is clearly even more to this story. 14 years of being rejected, even during Blair / Brown shall we say extremely relaxed attitude to immigration years and well before the income cap that Buzzfeed try to tie this case to.isam said:We aren't traffic wardens. If this woman has two kids and a husband here, she should be able to stay with them. There are plenty of people that should be deported that haven't been, including convicted rapists and people who want to kill us w terrorism. Some compassion should be shown here I think
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You'll really know UKIP have modernized when they book the Pet Shop Boys as the star turn at their annual conference and that the members will be excited to see them.Scrapheap_as_was said:Spurs win 4-0 and then a fantastic night in.... er... Bournemouth watching the pet shop boys bring the house down... it looked like a UKIP conference before they came on but the place was bouncing... superb stuff.
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I severely doubt it, the EEA leavers are massively over represented in places like this on the net. For most people it was about immigration..FF43 said:Leave were deliberately vague. I am guessing that if people realised that a Leave vote probably implied a Hard Brexit, it would have been enough to change a marginal Leave into a marginal Remain. But it is all hypothetical. Maybe it wouldn't have made a difference.
Nevertheless the question put was 'Should Britain leave the EU', and so instead of trying to fight the last war as alot of remain voters are seemingly doing; the question we should be asking and trying to shape is exactly what does our future relationship with Europe look like (As you say).
That is in the hands of TM the PM for now, but it won't always be that way - relationships are not set in stone forever.0 -
Remain was winnable in the referendum but it needed to be fought with Trump style character assassination of the leading Leave campaigners, as well as turning the anti-immigration argument into a boomerang by associating Brexit with the de-Europeanisation of Britain.Pulpstar said:
I severely doubt it, the EEA leavers are massively over represented in places like this on the net. For most people it was about immigration..FF43 said:Leave were deliberately vague. I am guessing that if people realised that a Leave vote probably implied a Hard Brexit, it would have been enough to change a marginal Leave into a marginal Remain. But it is all hypothetical. Maybe it wouldn't have made a difference.
Nevertheless the question put was 'Should Britain leave the EU', and so instead of trying to fight the last war as alot of remain voters are seemingly doing; the question we should be asking and trying to shape is exactly what does our future relationship with Europe look like (As you say).
That is in the hands of TM the PM for now, but it won't always be that way - relationships are not set in stone forever.0 -
LOLisam said:
Wikipedia 2050kyf_100 said:
The Democrats? "The Elites" seems more appropriate.HYUFD said:Last June an ally of Osborne met with LD leader Tim Farron and Labour MPs to discuss the formation of a new centrist party called 'the Democrats.' Osborne is building links with Lord Mandelson and Mandelson with Clegg and the likes of Tory MP Anna Soubry to build on the success of Macron's centrist 'En Marche' party to try and defeat a hard Brexit
https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/835872422792429569
"The democrats were formed in 2017 by a group of people who lost, then refused to accept the outcome of, a democratic vote"
William Glenn and AntiFrank founder members0 -
I doubt many Leave voters are particularly worried about the "de-Europeanisation" of Britain.williamglenn said:
Remain was winnable in the referendum but it needed to be fought with Trump style character assassination of the leading Leave campaigners, as well as turning the anti-immigration argument into a boomerang by associating Brexit with the de-Europeanisation of Britain.Pulpstar said:
I severely doubt it, the EEA leavers are massively over represented in places like this on the net. For most people it was about immigration..FF43 said:Leave were deliberately vague. I am guessing that if people realised that a Leave vote probably implied a Hard Brexit, it would have been enough to change a marginal Leave into a marginal Remain. But it is all hypothetical. Maybe it wouldn't have made a difference.
Nevertheless the question put was 'Should Britain leave the EU', and so instead of trying to fight the last war as alot of remain voters are seemingly doing; the question we should be asking and trying to shape is exactly what does our future relationship with Europe look like (As you say).
That is in the hands of TM the PM for now, but it won't always be that way - relationships are not set in stone forever.0 -
Well, if you're right things turn out a disaster and rejoining becomes all the rage again (and assuming the EU plays ball), they can learn that lesson for the next time this happens.williamglenn said:
Remain was winnable in the referendum but it needed to be fought with Trump style character assassination of the leading Leave campaigners, as well as turning the anti-immigration argument into a boomerang by associating Brexit with the de-Europeanisation of Britain.Pulpstar said:
I severely doubt it, the EEA leavers are massively over represented in places like this on the net. For most people it was about immigration..FF43 said:Leave were deliberately vague. I am guessing that if people realised that a Leave vote probably implied a Hard Brexit, it would have been enough to change a marginal Leave into a marginal Remain. But it is all hypothetical. Maybe it wouldn't have made a difference.
Nevertheless the question put was 'Should Britain leave the EU', and so instead of trying to fight the last war as alot of remain voters are seemingly doing; the question we should be asking and trying to shape is exactly what does our future relationship with Europe look like (As you say).
That is in the hands of TM the PM for now, but it won't always be that way - relationships are not set in stone forever.0 -
I can't remember ever having a bad bottle from Chile.SeanT said:
It was the Shiraz. But if its anything as good as the Shiraz, then 8 quid is a steal.another_richard said:
Was it Marques de Casa Concha you were impressed by ?SeanT said:
Asda has it for sale at £8 a bottle for the Cabernet Sauvignon.
And judging by this article, it is just as good. The Chileans are turning out phenomenal wines at amazing prices. They are going to eat the Europeans alive, and maybe the Aussies too
http://www.independent.co.uk/extras/indybest/food-drink/best-cabernet-sauvignons-under-10-20-30-25-50-wine-a7308996.html
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@JohnRentoul: George Galloway on BBC 5Live offering to take Jeremy Corbyn out shopping, after which "he'd look more like a PM than he does now".0
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Call it third-worldification then. That's one of the main things they're afraid of.RobD said:
I doubt many Leave voters are particularly worried about the "de-Europeanisation" of Britain.williamglenn said:
Remain was winnable in the referendum but it needed to be fought with Trump style character assassination of the leading Leave campaigners, as well as turning the anti-immigration argument into a boomerang by associating Brexit with the de-Europeanisation of Britain.Pulpstar said:
I severely doubt it, the EEA leavers are massively over represented in places like this on the net. For most people it was about immigration..FF43 said:Leave were deliberately vague. I am guessing that if people realised that a Leave vote probably implied a Hard Brexit, it would have been enough to change a marginal Leave into a marginal Remain. But it is all hypothetical. Maybe it wouldn't have made a difference.
Nevertheless the question put was 'Should Britain leave the EU', and so instead of trying to fight the last war as alot of remain voters are seemingly doing; the question we should be asking and trying to shape is exactly what does our future relationship with Europe look like (As you say).
That is in the hands of TM the PM for now, but it won't always be that way - relationships are not set in stone forever.0 -
Yeah threatening leavers with scare stories of non white people would have really fired up the Remain vote!williamglenn said:
Remain was winnable in the referendum but it needed to be fought with Trump style character assassination of the leading Leave campaigners, as well as turning the anti-immigration argument into a boomerang by associating Brexit with the de-Europeanisation of Britain.Pulpstar said:
I severely doubt it, the EEA leavers are massively over represented in places like this on the net. For most people it was about immigration..FF43 said:Leave were deliberately vague. I am guessing that if people realised that a Leave vote probably implied a Hard Brexit, it would have been enough to change a marginal Leave into a marginal Remain. But it is all hypothetical. Maybe it wouldn't have made a difference.
Nevertheless the question put was 'Should Britain leave the EU', and so instead of trying to fight the last war as alot of remain voters are seemingly doing; the question we should be asking and trying to shape is exactly what does our future relationship with Europe look like (As you say).
That is in the hands of TM the PM for now, but it won't always be that way - relationships are not set in stone forever.0 -
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Just out of interest Sean, since when did the English start having distinctive racial characteristics? Can you tell us what these are?SeanT said:
Given that you're the racist cocksucker who said, last night, that "the English are just lazy shit" then I think I'm going to ignore your further views on migration, thanks all the same.nielh said:
So is your standpoint that you agree with every law however bizarre and inhumane the consequences are? Just because it is the law and must be applied without fear or favour? There are lots of stories going around with similar outcomes, this is not even a particularly unusual case.SeanT said:
She has spent most of her life, and most of her married life, in Singapore. She has no legal right to stay in Britain. So, after due legal process, she has been deported to her actual home, Singapore.nielh said:
From what I can gather it looks like a fairly normal story of a dual nationality family. He is a gas engineer and she was working in a hotel. They have lived in both singapore and the UK on and off since 1988 and recently she went back to singapore to look after her parents, thereby losing her 'indefinete leave to remain'. He became ill in 2015 and could not meet the new £18600 per annum income requirement to maintain a spouse in the UK, so notwithstanding the fact that she was his carer and she has a family here in the UK (British children and grandchildren) she is not now entitled to stay here and has been forcibly deported.SeanT said:
No.TheScreamingEagles said:This story embarrasses us as a country.
https://twitter.com/emilydugan/status/835894090193592321
It's not what it seems. Read the weird details. The story initially claims she spent most of her life in Britain blah blah blah, then it says very quietly "she spent the majority of the last 30 years in Singapore"
So the Home Office has judged, very understandably, that she has chosen to make Singapore her true home. Which removes her right to residency here.
There is no judgement involved on the part of the home office, it is simply a case that he cannot support her and so therefore she is ineligible for a visa to stay here. Those are the rules and thats it. There really is no discretion involved on the part of decision makers.
It is quite remarkable and telling that you cannot be sympathetic towards her position.
It's not a story to delight the ages, it is the law being applied without fear or favour. As it must.
The Buzzfeed bullshit is just depressing.
On a personal level I do feel sorry for her. But then I also feel sorry for myself, quite a lot of the time. It is irrelevant.
I'm really interested.0 -
No, they had a cleaning business.foxinsoxuk said:
Good Lord. A friend of mine had exactly the same experience. He had a hotel in Sarasota, could it be the same bloke?Floater said:
That does seem really harsh.TheScreamingEagles said:This story embarrasses us as a country.
https://twitter.com/emilydugan/status/835894090193592321
Mate of mines brother and family moved to Florida many years back, they had a successful business and they had been there for more years than I remember.
Then he was told he and his son had to go to US embassy in London for a meeting - details are hazy now as this happened years back but I don't think he had a clue what would happen next.
He was told he and his son could not live in States and were not even allowed back to help wife and daughter sell business / house and move back.
The kids were high school age at this time and found it a huge wrench.
But it's interesting that it happened to someone else in the same way.
Will not mention it to him though as it really will not change things or make him feel any better
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Indeed the WWC that voted Leave wouldn't have a clue.RobD said:
I doubt many Leave voters are particularly worried about the "de-Europeanisation" of Britain.williamglenn said:
Remain was winnable in the referendum but it needed to be fought with Trump style character assassination of the leading Leave campaigners, as well as turning the anti-immigration argument into a boomerang by associating Brexit with the de-Europeanisation of Britain.Pulpstar said:
I severely doubt it, the EEA leavers are massively over represented in places like this on the net. For most people it was about immigration..FF43 said:Leave were deliberately vague. I am guessing that if people realised that a Leave vote probably implied a Hard Brexit, it would have been enough to change a marginal Leave into a marginal Remain. But it is all hypothetical. Maybe it wouldn't have made a difference.
Nevertheless the question put was 'Should Britain leave the EU', and so instead of trying to fight the last war as alot of remain voters are seemingly doing; the question we should be asking and trying to shape is exactly what does our future relationship with Europe look like (As you say).
That is in the hands of TM the PM for now, but it won't always be that way - relationships are not set in stone forever.
The problem with the WWC is the lack of educational aspiration. It is sadly close to non-existent. Policy makers must really focus on this issue rather than pay lip service to it.
People from the 'immigrant' working class simply do better. We need to close this gap. I know it's going to require a huge cultural shift but it can be done.
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I believe that you are correct in making the contention that, having handed Labour on a plate to the Far Left, the dissenting bulk of the PLP would do best to jump ship. It is the only route that presently appears to offer a chance to avoid a rout by Mrs May, followed by gradual withering, shrinkage and death. However...foxinsoxuk said:@stodge
Good header. While the SDP precedent is not good, a new "Democrats" would be a different kettle of fish. This is not 1981, and the Unions have not the strength they did then, and Corbyn is not as electable as Foot.
I could see it working, but only if over half the PLP moved over, a handful of defectors is neither here nor there.
I would advance three contentions. Firstly, that so many Labourites have given so much of themselves to the party that they are too emotionally invested in it to abandon it. Secondly, that the example of the SDP suggests to them that any attempt to betray Labour will end in failure, and that this is a very real fear. Thirdly, that they're perfectly well aware that a very large part of what's left of Labour's voter coalition is either sympathetic to the Far Left, are tribal loyalty voters or both; that they won't desert; and that Rump Labour could probably therefore count on anything from maybe 12 or 13 to as much as 20 percent of the electorate in the short to medium term, as well as having an excellent chance of holding on to several dozen core big city constituencies.
Now, even if we assume that the breakaway were to happen at some point during this year, that this new force (which would also become HM Opposition) were to merge with the Liberal Democrats and perhaps attract a small handful of Tories, and that an election would not take place until the scheduled date in 2020, the "Democrats" would have just two-and-a-half years to establish itself as the unchallenged Opposition. Principally, this would involve the following:
1. Fighting a war on six fronts - against the Tories, Rump Labour, the SNP, Plaid Cymru, Ukip and the Greens - and winning large numbers of voters on many or all of them, to get its overall vote share up and to nail down geographic and demographic bases of strength.
2. Sorting out its finances from scratch without the help of most or all of the trades unions.
3. Winning the media battle to present themselves as credible, competent, trustworthy, standing for attractive values, getting voters to understand that they have distinctive policies and to remember what they are, and being worth voting for over peoples' previous loyalties.
4. Convincing centrist voters in England that they aren't a Trojan horse for either the Far Left or Scottish Nationalism, in the event of there being a Hung Parliament.
So it's doable, and clearly preferable to sitting motionless and waiting to die. But you can understand why people might prefer to do just that and pray for divine intervention instead.0 -
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Yet another variation of the "it's not us, the electorate are wrong" argument. I really should keep a list of these.murali_s said:Indeed the WWC that voted Leave wouldn't have a clue.
The problem with the WWC is the lack of educational aspiration. It is sadly close to non-existent. Policy makers must really focus on this issue rather than pay lip service to it.
0 -
Labour were down 4.4%.Pulpstar said:Labour up 4.4 pts, Tories down 23.6 pts in this election.
A 14 pt Tory -> Labour swing, far above the 8.1 average for the 83-87 parliament.
But it was tactical votes from 1983 Conservatives which won it for the SDP.
By comparison Bermondsey 1983 saw a huge Labour to Liberal swing:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bermondsey_by-election,_19830 -
What I wrote is 100% true though - you know it, I know it.glw said:
Yet another variation of the "it's not us, the electorate are wrong" argument. I really should keep a list of these.murali_s said:Indeed the WWC that voted Leave wouldn't have a clue.
The problem with the WWC is the lack of educational aspiration. It is sadly close to non-existent. Policy makers must really focus on this issue rather than pay lip service to it.0 -
Some of the most racist bollocks ever written on this site.murali_s said:The problem with the WWC is the lack of educational aspiration. It is sadly close to non-existent. Policy makers must really focus on this issue rather than pay lip service to it.
People from the 'immigrant' working class simply do better. We need to close this gap. I know it's going to require a huge cultural shift but it can be done.
0 -
It's true - speak to people in education you dimwit - you can start with TeachFirst.chestnut said:
Some of the most racist bollocks ever written on this site.murali_s said:The problem with the WWC is the lack of educational aspiration. It is sadly close to non-existent. Policy makers must really focus on this issue rather than pay lip service to it.
People from the 'immigrant' working class simply do better. We need to close this gap. I know it's going to require a huge cultural shift but it can be done.0 -
What was education, educashun, idicassunn all about then ?murali_s said:
Indeed the WWC that voted Leave wouldn't have a clue.RobD said:
I doubt many Leave voters are particularly worried about the "de-Europeanisation" of Britain.williamglenn said:
Remain was winnable in the referendum but it needed to be fought with Trump style character assassination of the leading Leave campaigners, as well as turning the anti-immigration argument into a boomerang by associating Brexit with the de-Europeanisation of Britain.Pulpstar said:
I severely doubt it, the EEA leavers are massively over represented in places like this on the net. For most people it was about immigration..FF43 said:Leave were deliberately vague. I am guessing that if people realised that a Leave vote probably implied a Hard Brexit, it would have been enough to change a marginal Leave into a marginal Remain. But it is all hypothetical. Maybe it wouldn't have made a difference.
Nevertheless the question put was 'Should Britain leave the EU', and so instead of trying to fight the last war as alot of remain voters are seemingly doing; the question we should be asking and trying to shape is exactly what does our future relationship with Europe look like (As you say).
That is in the hands of TM the PM for now, but it won't always be that way - relationships are not set in stone forever.
The problem with the WWC is the lack of educational aspiration. It is sadly close to non-existent. Policy makers must really focus on this issue rather than pay lip service to it.
People from the 'immigrant' working class simply do better. We need to close this gap. I know it's going to require a huge cultural shift but it can be done.
The whining from teachers when grade inflation was stopped gives a clue.0 -
-
I disagree fundamentally, but as I hate Labour keep up the good work.murali_s said:
What I wrote is 100% true though - you know it, I know it.glw said:
Yet another variation of the "it's not us, the electorate are wrong" argument. I really should keep a list of these.murali_s said:Indeed the WWC that voted Leave wouldn't have a clue.
The problem with the WWC is the lack of educational aspiration. It is sadly close to non-existent. Policy makers must really focus on this issue rather than pay lip service to it.0 -
How do you think the young afro-caribbean community do?murali_s said:
It's true - speak to people in education you dimwit - you can start with TeachFirst.chestnut said:
Some of the most racist bollocks ever written on this site.murali_s said:The problem with the WWC is the lack of educational aspiration. It is sadly close to non-existent. Policy makers must really focus on this issue rather than pay lip service to it.
People from the 'immigrant' working class simply do better. We need to close this gap. I know it's going to require a huge cultural shift but it can be done.
You don't have a chip on your shoulder; it's a jacket potato.
Moron.0 -
You're the ignorant moron. Have you been to London and the Grammar schools here? Have you spoken with people who work in education - they will tell you that WWC educational aspiration is a HUGE issue.chestnut said:
How do you think the young afro-caribbean community do?murali_s said:
It's true - speak to people in education you dimwit - you can start with TeachFirst.chestnut said:
Some of the most racist bollocks ever written on this site.murali_s said:The problem with the WWC is the lack of educational aspiration. It is sadly close to non-existent. Policy makers must really focus on this issue rather than pay lip service to it.
People from the 'immigrant' working class simply do better. We need to close this gap. I know it's going to require a huge cultural shift but it can be done.
You don't have a chip on your shoulder; it's a jacket potato.
Moron.0 -
Really good article, Stodge. Labour are finding, as per a Morrissey album title, that You Are The Quarry. They won't lose that tag until Jeremy Corbyn is just a folk memory told to children.0
-
Fine. Let them have it. It'll be lost, again, and afterwards we'll make it clear "no more independence referendums" just like in Quebec.Scott_P said:0 -
'The Privilege Party' might be even better..kyf_100 said:
The Democrats? "The Elites" seems more appropriate.HYUFD said:Last June an ally of Osborne met with LD leader Tim Farron and Labour MPs to discuss the formation of a new centrist party called 'the Democrats.' Osborne is building links with Lord Mandelson and Mandelson with Clegg and the likes of Tory MP Anna Soubry to build on the success of Macron's centrist 'En Marche' party to try and defeat a hard Brexit
https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/835872422792429569
0 -
Great post that sums up the SPD2 position well.Black_Rook said:
Now, even if we assume that the breakaway were to happen at some point during this year, that this new force (which would also become HM Opposition) were to merge with the Liberal Democrats and perhaps attract a small handful of Tories, and that an election would not take place until the scheduled date in 2020, the "Democrats" would have just two-and-a-half years to establish itself as the unchallenged Opposition. Principally, this would involve the following:foxinsoxuk said:@stodge
Good header. While the SDP precedent is not good, a new "Democrats" would be a different kettle of fish. This is not 1981, and the Unions have not the strength they did then, and Corbyn is not as electable as Foot.
I could see it working, but only if over half the PLP moved over, a handful of defectors is neither here nor there.
1. Fighting a war on six fronts - against the Tories, Rump Labour, the SNP, Plaid Cymru, Ukip and the Greens - and winning large numbers of voters on many or all of them, to get its overall vote share up and to nail down geographic and demographic bases of strength.
2. Sorting out its finances from scratch without the help of most or all of the trades unions.
3. Winning the media battle to present themselves as credible, competent, trustworthy, standing for attractive values, getting voters to understand that they have distinctive policies and to remember what they are, and being worth voting for over peoples' previous loyalties.
4. Convincing centrist voters in England that they aren't a Trojan horse for either the Far Left or Scottish Nationalism, in the event of there being a Hung Parliament.
So it's doable, and clearly preferable to sitting motionless and waiting to die. But you can understand why people might prefer to do just that and pray for divine intervention instead.
In short it has no chance under FPTP and in the current political/economic environment.
On the other hand, if the economic fallout from departing the EU is severely problematic and public opinion moves decisively against brexit, then it could work.0 -
What's your estimate as to how long that will be ?AlastairMeeks said:Really good article, Stodge. Labour are finding, as per a Morrissey album title, that You Are The Quarry. They won't lose that tag until Jeremy Corbyn is just a folk memory told to children.
0 -
The bold policy they could adopt to break through would be to be pro Scottish independence.nielh said:
Great post that sums up the SPD2 position well.Black_Rook said:
Now, even if we assume that the breakaway were to happen at some point during this year, that this new force (which would also become HM Opposition) were to merge with the Liberal Democrats and perhaps attract a small handful of Tories, and that an election would not take place until the scheduled date in 2020, the "Democrats" would have just two-and-a-half years to establish itself as the unchallenged Opposition. Principally, this would involve the following:foxinsoxuk said:@stodge
Good header. While the SDP precedent is not good, a new "Democrats" would be a different kettle of fish. This is not 1981, and the Unions have not the strength they did then, and Corbyn is not as electable as Foot.
I could see it working, but only if over half the PLP moved over, a handful of defectors is neither here nor there.
1. Fighting a war on six fronts - against the Tories, Rump Labour, the SNP, Plaid Cymru, Ukip and the Greens - and winning large numbers of voters on many or all of them, to get its overall vote share up and to nail down geographic and demographic bases of strength.
2. Sorting out its finances from scratch without the help of most or all of the trades unions.
3. Winning the media battle to present themselves as credible, competent, trustworthy, standing for attractive values, getting voters to understand that they have distinctive policies and to remember what they are, and being worth voting for over peoples' previous loyalties.
4. Convincing centrist voters in England that they aren't a Trojan horse for either the Far Left or Scottish Nationalism, in the event of there being a Hung Parliament.
So it's doable, and clearly preferable to sitting motionless and waiting to die. But you can understand why people might prefer to do just that and pray for divine intervention instead.
In short it has no chance under FPTP and in the current political/economic environment.
On the other hand, if the economic fallout from departing the EU is severely problematic and public opinion moves decisively against brexit, then it could work.0 -
God be praised.Scott_P said:
And by God, I mean of course, May.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbOZwr5WLww
..7 years into a Tory government, on the eave of Brexit, a possible snap general election and the "taps on" Budget...0 -
What is it with PB lefties and a hatred of all things English? There was even discomfort at that moron Snell putting a St George's Cross on his campaign literature. It's truly bizarre. Luckily, it's just a few no marks on an anonymous internet forum, but if this hatred does start to manifest itself more frequently among more famous lefties, you can kiss a Labour government goodbye.0
-
Vote White Europe was an option, but not one that Remain wished to run with.williamglenn said:
Remain was winnable in the referendum but it needed to be fought with Trump style character assassination of the leading Leave campaigners, as well as turning the anti-immigration argument into a boomerang by associating Brexit with the de-Europeanisation of Britain.Pulpstar said:
I severely doubt it, the EEA leavers are massively over represented in places like this on the net. For most people it was about immigration..FF43 said:Leave were deliberately vague. I am guessing that if people realised that a Leave vote probably implied a Hard Brexit, it would have been enough to change a marginal Leave into a marginal Remain. But it is all hypothetical. Maybe it wouldn't have made a difference.
Nevertheless the question put was 'Should Britain leave the EU', and so instead of trying to fight the last war as alot of remain voters are seemingly doing; the question we should be asking and trying to shape is exactly what does our future relationship with Europe look like (As you say).
That is in the hands of TM the PM for now, but it won't always be that way - relationships are not set in stone forever.
0 -
It certainly will be convenient to have all the usual suspects under one banner, and further splitting of the vote.another_richard said:
'The Privilege Party' might be even better..kyf_100 said:
The Democrats? "The Elites" seems more appropriate.HYUFD said:Last June an ally of Osborne met with LD leader Tim Farron and Labour MPs to discuss the formation of a new centrist party called 'the Democrats.' Osborne is building links with Lord Mandelson and Mandelson with Clegg and the likes of Tory MP Anna Soubry to build on the success of Macron's centrist 'En Marche' party to try and defeat a hard Brexit
https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/8358724227924295690 -
Call me old-fashioned, but since whoever wrote that article doesn't seem to understand the difference between a Cabernet Sauvignon and a Cabernet Franc, I can't help feeling that it's not entirely authoritative.SeanT said:And judging by this article, it is just as good. The Chileans are turning out phenomenal wines at amazing prices. They are going to eat the Europeans alive, and maybe the Aussies too
http://www.independent.co.uk/extras/indybest/food-drink/best-cabernet-sauvignons-under-10-20-30-25-50-wine-a7308996.html
Still, it's true that Saumur Chateau Fouquet 2014 from Yapp's is a particularly good Cabernet Franc (As it happens, I've just topped up, although they are now on to the 2015).0 -
With 0-1 words changed every song title on that 'stodgy' Moz album could be a Jezza headline!AlastairMeeks said:Really good article, Stodge. Labour are finding, as per a Morrissey album title, that You Are The Quarry. They won't lose that tag until Jeremy Corbyn is just a folk memory told to children.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_Are_the_Quarry0 -
A "this is what they really think about you" campaign come the general election might work wonders.TwistedFireStopper said:What is it with PB lefties and a hatred of all things English? There was even discomfort at that moron Snell putting a St George's Cross on his campaign literature. It's truly bizarre. Luckily, it's just a few no marks on an anonymous internet forum, but if this hatred does start to manifest itself more frequently among more famous lefties, you can kiss a Labour government goodbye.
0 -
Lol, 'No 10 fears'.Scott_P said:
Shome mishtake shirly, brave Tessie wants to call the Nats' bluff 'cos they definitely, definitely don't want a referendum. The PB Brexityoons have said so ad nauseum.0 -
Some people just feel desperately embarrassed by this country, in the same way teenagers get embarassed by their parents. It's plainly not rational.TwistedFireStopper said:What is it with PB lefties and a hatred of all things English? There was even discomfort at that moron Snell putting a St George's Cross on his campaign literature. It's truly bizarre. Luckily, it's just a few no marks on an anonymous internet forum, but if this hatred does start to manifest itself more frequently among more famous lefties, you can kiss a Labour government goodbye.
0 -
I didn't refer to the english as a 'race' though, that is all in your mind.SeanT said:
I dunno. Maybe since you singled the English out as a race who are uniquely "lazy and shit"? Just a wild guess.nielh said:
Just out of interest Sean, since when did the English start having distinctive racial characteristics? Can you tell us what these are?SeanT said:
Given that you're the racist cocksucker who said, last night, that "the English are just lazy shit" then I think I'm going to ignore your further views on migration, thanks all the same.nielh said:
So is your standpoint that you agree with every law however bizarre and inhumane the consequences are? Just because it is the law and must be applied without fear or favour? There are lots of stories going around with similar outcomes, this is not even a particularly unusual case.SeanT said:
She has spent most of her life, and most of her married life, in Singapore. She has no legal right to stay in Britain. So, after due legal process, she has been deported to her actual home, Singapore.nielh said:
From what I can gather it looks like a fairly normal story of a dual nationality family. He is a gas engineer and she was working in a hotel. They have lived in both singapore and the UK on and off since 1988 and recently she went back to singapore to look after her parents, thereby losing her 'indefinete leave to remain'. He became ill in 2015 and could not meet the new £18600 perSeanT said:
No.TheScreamingEagles said:This story embarrasses us as a country.
https://twitter.com/emilydugan/status/835894090193592321
It's not what it seems. Read the weird details. The story initially claims she spent most of her life in Britain blah blah blah, then it says very quietly "she spent the majority of the last 30 years in Singapore"
So the Home Office has judged, very understandably, that she has chosen to make Singapore her true home. Which removes her right to residency here.
There is no judgement involved on the part of the home office, it is simply a case that he cannot support her and so therefore she is ineligible for a visa to stay here. Those are the rules and thats it. There really is no discretion involved on the part of decision makers.
It is quite remarkable and telling that you cannot be sympathetic towards her position.
It's not a story to delight the ages, it is the law being applied without fear or favour. As it must.
The Buzzfeed bullshit is just depressing.
On a personal level I do feel sorry for her. But then I also feel sorry for myself, quite a lot of the time. It is irrelevant.
I'm really interested.
0 -
The current Labour Party has more or less open contempt for the very people it is meant to represent, that is Britain's working class. You only have to see Corbyn's words today to realise how out of touch he is with contemporary working.Sean_F said:
Some people just feel desperately embarrassed by this country, in the same way teenagers get embarassed by their parents. It's plainly not rational.TwistedFireStopper said:What is it with PB lefties and a hatred of all things English? There was even discomfort at that moron Snell putting a St George's Cross on his campaign literature. It's truly bizarre. Luckily, it's just a few no marks on an anonymous internet forum, but if this hatred does start to manifest itself more frequently among more famous lefties, you can kiss a Labour government goodbye.
If you are the modern Labour Party and you don't like, represent, or understand the "workers", then what the hell are you for?
Anyway if they keep losing 1% of the vote every 7 weeks, or whatever the precise figures were, this is a problem that will solve itself.0 -
hmm. Not sure they should be pro scottish independence, but they could be pro a federal UK, with only defence and border control being dealt with collectively.williamglenn said:
The bold policy they could adopt to break through would be to be pro Scottish independence.nielh said:
Great post that sums up the SPD2 position well.Black_Rook said:
Now, even if we assume that the breakaway were to happen at some point during this year, that this new force (which would also become HM Opposition) were to merge with the Liberal Democrats and perhaps attract a small handful of Tories, and that an election would not take place until the scheduled date in 2020, the "Democrats" would have just two-and-a-half years to establish itself as the unchallenged Opposition. Principally, this would involve the following:foxinsoxuk said:@stodge
Good header. While the SDP precedent is not good, a new "Democrats" would be a different kettle of fish. This is not 1981, and the Unions have not the strength they did then, and Corbyn is not as electable as Foot.
I could see it working, but only if over half the PLP moved over, a handful of defectors is neither here nor there.
1. Fighting a war on six fronts - against the Tories, Rump Labour, the SNP, Plaid Cymru, Ukip and the Greens - and winning large numbers of voters on many or all of them, to get its overall vote share up and to nail down geographic and demographic bases of strength.
2. Sorting out its finances from scratch without the help of most or all of the trades unions.
3. Winning the media battle to present themselves as credible, competent, trustworthy, standing for attractive values, getting voters to understand that they have distinctive policies and to remember what they are, and being worth voting for over peoples' previous loyalties.
4. Convincing centrist voters in England that they aren't a Trojan horse for either the Far Left or Scottish Nationalism, in the event of there being a Hung Parliament.
So it's doable, and clearly preferable to sitting motionless and waiting to die. But you can understand why people might prefer to do just that and pray for divine intervention instead.
In short it has no chance under FPTP and in the current political/economic environment.
On the other hand, if the economic fallout from departing the EU is severely problematic and public opinion moves decisively against brexit, then it could work.0 -
God, you're a prize helmet.murali_s said:
You're the ignorant moron. Have you been to London and the Grammar schools here? Have you spoken with people who work in education - they will tell you that WWC educational aspiration is a HUGE issue.chestnut said:
How do you think the young afro-caribbean community do?murali_s said:
It's true - speak to people in education you dimwit - you can start with TeachFirst.chestnut said:
Some of the most racist bollocks ever written on this site.murali_s said:The problem with the WWC is the lack of educational aspiration. It is sadly close to non-existent. Policy makers must really focus on this issue rather than pay lip service to it.
People from the 'immigrant' working class simply do better. We need to close this gap. I know it's going to require a huge cultural shift but it can be done.
You don't have a chip on your shoulder; it's a jacket potato.
Moron.
Try and describe 'the WWC'. Go on, have a go, sonny.
Then, try and tell me how many WWC there are left in London. Not a lot. They all got fed up with school standards falling due to people who were ESOL.
If you think churning out kids with GCSE's that go on to do 'Business Studies' so they can get a shiny suit from Mister Byrite is a sign of improvement - you're an idiot. As are many in the eduactaional establishment.
0 -
English is the best language in the world.nielh said:
I didn't refer to the english as a 'race' though, that is all in your mind.SeanT said:
I dunno. Maybe since you singled the English out as a race who are uniquely "lazy and shit"? Just a wild guess.nielh said:
Just out of interest Sean, since when did the English start having distinctive racial characteristics? Can you tell us what these are?SeanT said:
Given that you're the racist cocksucker who said, last night, that "the English are just lazy shit" then I think I'm going to ignore your further views on migration, thanks all the same.nielh said:
So is your standpoint that you agree with every law however bizarre and inhumane the consequences are? Just because it is the law and must be applied without fear or favour? There are lots of stories going around with similar outcomes, this is not even a particularly unusual case.SeanT said:
She has spent most of her life, and most of her married life, in Singapore. She has no legal right to stay in Britain. So, after due legal process, she has been deported to her actual home, Singapore.nielh said:
From what I can gather it looks like a fairly normal story of a dual nationality family. He is a gas engineer and she was working in a hotel. They have lived in both singapore and the UK on and off since 1988 and recently she went back to singapore to look after her parents, thereby losing her 'indefinete leave to remain'. He became ill in 2015 and could not meet the new £18600 perSeanT said:TheScreamingEagles said:This story embarrasses us as a country.
https://twitter.com/emilydugan/status/835894090193592321
There is no judgement involved on the part of the home office, it is simply a case that he cannot support her and so therefore she is ineligible for a visa to stay here. Those are the rules and thats it. There really is no discretion involved on the part of decision makers.
It is quite remarkable and telling that you cannot be sympathetic towards her position.
It's not a story to delight the ages, it is the law being applied without fear or favour. As it must.
The Buzzfeed bullshit is just depressing.
On a personal level I do feel sorry for her. But then I also feel sorry for myself, quite a lot of the time. It is irrelevant.
I'm really interested.
0 -
(Ummm: haven't London school standards gone through the roof in the last 15 years?)chestnut said:
God, you're a prize helmet.murali_s said:
You're the ignorant moron. Have you been to London and the Grammar schools here? Have you spoken with people who work in education - they will tell you that WWC educational aspiration is a HUGE issue.chestnut said:
How do you think the young afro-caribbean community do?murali_s said:
It's true - speak to people in education you dimwit - you can start with TeachFirst.chestnut said:
Some of the most racist bollocks ever written on this site.murali_s said:The problem with the WWC is the lack of educational aspiration. It is sadly close to non-existent. Policy makers must really focus on this issue rather than pay lip service to it.
People from the 'immigrant' working class simply do better. We need to close this gap. I know it's going to require a huge cultural shift but it can be done.
You don't have a chip on your shoulder; it's a jacket potato.
Moron.
Try and describe 'the WWC'. Go on, have a go, sonny.
Then, try and tell me how many WWC there are left in London. Not a lot. They all got fed up with school standards falling due to people who were ESOL.
If you think churning out kids with GCSE's that go on to do 'Business Studies' so they can get a shiny suit from Mister Byrite is a sign of improvement - you're an idiot. As are many in the eduactaional establishment.0 -
Because all the thick, white racists have left!!!rcs1000 said:
(Ummm: haven't London school standards gone through the roof in the last 15 years?)chestnut said:
God, you're a prize helmet.murali_s said:
You're the ignorant moron. Have you been to London and the Grammar schools here? Have you spoken with people who work in education - they will tell you that WWC educational aspiration is a HUGE issue.chestnut said:
How do you think the young afro-caribbean community do?murali_s said:
It's true - speak to people in education you dimwit - you can start with TeachFirst.chestnut said:
Some of the most racist bollocks ever written on this site.murali_s said:The problem with the WWC is the lack of educational aspiration. It is sadly close to non-existent. Policy makers must really focus on this issue rather than pay lip service to it.
People from the 'immigrant' working class simply do better. We need to close this gap. I know it's going to require a huge cultural shift but it can be done.
You don't have a chip on your shoulder; it's a jacket potato.
Moron.
Try and describe 'the WWC'. Go on, have a go, sonny.
Then, try and tell me how many WWC there are left in London. Not a lot. They all got fed up with school standards falling due to people who were ESOL.
If you think churning out kids with GCSE's that go on to do 'Business Studies' so they can get a shiny suit from Mister Byrite is a sign of improvement - you're an idiot. As are many in the eduactaional establishment.
(Who said that??)0 -
'eduactaional'chestnut said:
God, you're a prize helmet.murali_s said:
You're the ignorant moron. Have you been to London and the Grammar schools here? Have you spoken with people who work in education - they will tell you that WWC educational aspiration is a HUGE issue.chestnut said:
How do you think the young afro-caribbean community do?murali_s said:
It's true - speak to people in education you dimwit - you can start with TeachFirst.chestnut said:
Some of the most racist bollocks ever written on this site.murali_s said:The problem with the WWC is the lack of educational aspiration. It is sadly close to non-existent. Policy makers must really focus on this issue rather than pay lip service to it.
People from the 'immigrant' working class simply do better. We need to close this gap. I know it's going to require a huge cultural shift but it can be done.
You don't have a chip on your shoulder; it's a jacket potato.
Moron.
Try and describe 'the WWC'. Go on, have a go, sonny.
Then, try and tell me how many WWC there are left in London. Not a lot. They all got fed up with school standards falling due to people who were ESOL.
If you think churning out kids with GCSE's that go on to do 'Business Studies' so they can get a shiny suit from Mister Byrite is a sign of improvement - you're an idiot. As are many in the eduactaional establishment.
Good one.0 -
Compared to what? Their own dumbed down league tables? Teaching to the curriculum?rcs1000 said:
(Ummm: haven't London school standards gone through the roof in the last 15 years?)chestnut said:
God, you're a prize helmet.murali_s said:
You're the ignorant moron. Have you been to London and the Grammar schools here? Have you spoken with people who work in education - they will tell you that WWC educational aspiration is a HUGE issue.chestnut said:
How do you think the young afro-caribbean community do?murali_s said:
It's true - speak to people in education you dimwit - you can start with TeachFirst.chestnut said:
Some of the most racist bollocks ever written on this site.murali_s said:The problem with the WWC is the lack of educational aspiration. It is sadly close to non-existent. Policy makers must really focus on this issue rather than pay lip service to it.
People from the 'immigrant' working class simply do better. We need to close this gap. I know it's going to require a huge cultural shift but it can be done.
You don't have a chip on your shoulder; it's a jacket potato.
Moron.
Try and describe 'the WWC'. Go on, have a go, sonny.
Then, try and tell me how many WWC there are left in London. Not a lot. They all got fed up with school standards falling due to people who were ESOL.
If you think churning out kids with GCSE's that go on to do 'Business Studies' so they can get a shiny suit from Mister Byrite is a sign of improvement - you're an idiot. As are many in the eduactaional establishment.
If they've been a great success, Robert - why do we 'need' EU immigration? Why is there a shortfall of skills?
Why can't you find a Sri Lankan or Bangladeshi plumber or electrician?
The education system post 1997 churns out kids with fairly meaningless qualifications and over produces 'graduates' who often go on to a life worthy of 2 'O' levels.
0 -
How soon is now for Corbyn though ?isam said:
With 0-1 words changed every song title on that 'stodgy' Moz album could be a Jezza headline!AlastairMeeks said:Really good article, Stodge. Labour are finding, as per a Morrissey album title, that You Are The Quarry. They won't lose that tag until Jeremy Corbyn is just a folk memory told to children.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_Are_the_Quarry0 -
The last of the famous international socialists.Pulpstar said:
How soon is now for Corbyn though ?isam said:
With 0-1 words changed every song title on that 'stodgy' Moz album could be a Jezza headline!AlastairMeeks said:Really good article, Stodge. Labour are finding, as per a Morrissey album title, that You Are The Quarry. They won't lose that tag until Jeremy Corbyn is just a folk memory told to children.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_Are_the_Quarry0 -
(1) The law is an ass.Sean_F said:
It seems that the law is being properly applied in this case.SeanT said:
No.TheScreamingEagles said:This story embarrasses us as a country.
https://twitter.com/emilydugan/status/835894090193592321
It's not what it seems. Read the weird details. The story initially claims she spent most of her life in Britain blah blah blah, then it says very quietly "she spent the majority of the last 30 years in Singapore"
So the Home Office has judged, very understandably, that she has chosen to make Singapore her true home. Which removes her right to residency here.
(2) Hard cases make bad law.
Always a tough call between discretion (whether "compassionate" or merely "sensible") and consistency.
If I were The Big Boss, I'd let her stay in Britain, partly because of her previous ties (albeit she was the one who severed them) but mostly because letting her stay may be less of a drain on the exchequer than forcing her to leave, bearing in mind the care services she is providing for free.
That Sri Lankan Tamil lass in Wales, failed asylum seeker with just a couple of weeks of uni left before she graduates in a STEM shortage subject? I'd let her stay too. Just to finish off the degree. The British taxpayer has spent a stupid amount on her education if we include her time at secondary school in Britain - and bearing in mind how unlikely we are to get her student loan paid back to us, we are likely talking in the region of £50k all told. Utter waste of money if we don't let her finish the thing off. If she then has to leave the country this summer, but gets the chance to apply for skills-shortage jobs here that could earn her a visa, that sounds fair enough to me.
But then I'm a soppy sod. I'd probably say "stay" too often. What happens when someone's son is half-way through the degree - too near the end to kick them out? Or just started the first term, can't we let them do another 3 years here? And so it goes on.0 -
London used to be at the bottom of the school league tables and is now towards the top. Of course, this could be due to everywhere else in the country getting massively worse, but relatively at least, London has improved massively in the last 15 years.chestnut said:
Compared to what? Their own dumbed down league tables? Teaching to the curriculum?rcs1000 said:
(Ummm: haven't London school standards gone through the roof in the last 15 years?)chestnut said:
God, you're a prize helmet.murali_s said:
You're the ignorant moron. Have you been to London and the Grammar schools here? Have you spoken with people who work in education - they will tell you that WWC educational aspiration is a HUGE issue.chestnut said:
How do you think the young afro-caribbean community do?murali_s said:
It's true - speak to people in education you dimwit - you can start with TeachFirst.chestnut said:
Some of the most racist bollocks ever written on this site.murali_s said:The problem with the WWC is the lack of educational aspiration. It is sadly close to non-existent. Policy makers must really focus on this issue rather than pay lip service to it.
People from the 'immigrant' working class simply do better. We need to close this gap. I know it's going to require a huge cultural shift but it can be done.
You don't have a chip on your shoulder; it's a jacket potato.
Moron.
Try and describe 'the WWC'. Go on, have a go, sonny.
Then, try and tell me how many WWC there are left in London. Not a lot. They all got fed up with school standards falling due to people who were ESOL.
If you think churning out kids with GCSE's that go on to do 'Business Studies' so they can get a shiny suit from Mister Byrite is a sign of improvement - you're an idiot. As are many in the eduactaional establishment.
If they've been a great success, Robert - why do we 'need' EU immigration? Why is there a shortfall of skills?
Why can't you find a Sri Lankan or Bangladeshi plumber or electrician?
There are lots of arguments about why: is it government policy? Or something else.
I don't know the answer.0 -
The b side to 'oh Diane'Pulpstar said:
How soon is now for Corbyn though ?isam said:
With 0-1 words changed every song title on that 'stodgy' Moz album could be a Jezza headline!AlastairMeeks said:Really good article, Stodge. Labour are finding, as per a Morrissey album title, that You Are The Quarry. They won't lose that tag until Jeremy Corbyn is just a folk memory told to children.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_Are_the_Quarry
https://youtu.be/GFDzQD-LR800 -
You spotted a typo - well done, Divvie.Theuniondivvie said:
'eduactaional'chestnut said:
God, you're a prize helmet.murali_s said:
You're the ignorant moron. Have you been to London and the Grammar schools here? Have you spoken with people who work in education - they will tell you that WWC educational aspiration is a HUGE issue.chestnut said:
How do you think the young afro-caribbean community do?murali_s said:
It's true - speak to people in education you dimwit - you can start with TeachFirst.chestnut said:
Some of the most racist bollocks ever written on this site.murali_s said:The problem with the WWC is the lack of educational aspiration. It is sadly close to non-existent. Policy makers must really focus on this issue rather than pay lip service to it.
People from the 'immigrant' working class simply do better. We need to close this gap. I know it's going to require a huge cultural shift but it can be done.
You don't have a chip on your shoulder; it's a jacket potato.
Moron.
Try and describe 'the WWC'. Go on, have a go, sonny.
Then, try and tell me how many WWC there are left in London. Not a lot. They all got fed up with school standards falling due to people who were ESOL.
If you think churning out kids with GCSE's that go on to do 'Business Studies' so they can get a shiny suit from Mister Byrite is a sign of improvement - you're an idiot. As are many in the eduactaional establishment.
Good one.
Now perhaps you'd like to go back to your Panelbase figures from earlier and explain why Labour were down 17 and the rest were up 32.0 -
0
-
I don't understand these comments that suggest criticism of the English is somehow racist.
I'm still waiting to get a full answer from SeanT about what special racial characteristics he thinks the English have.
On the broader question - notwithstanding the leave vote - many people in England simply don't identify postively with an English identity due to its negative connotations (racism, white supremacy, football violence) they would rather identify with a British identity or - in a minority of cases - a European identity. This is probably why it is not used in political literature particularly for the mainstream parties.
I suppose that the ultimate truth is just that we don't really know what our 'English' identity is.
Its hard to think of any other country or region of Europe with a similar predicament.
0 -
This is a great thread @Stodge. To cheer everyone up, here is the latest Momentum email to me.
We stopped UKIP
We beat UKIP in Stoke and stopped Paul Nuttall from getting into Parliament. I’m proud I was a part of it.
Over the last few weeks I’ve been carpooling up to volunteer on the campaign.
The people I met have inspired me and I made some great friends through the Momentum Carpooling website. Our movement gives me hope.
Share this with friends and family to let the world know what we can do together and click here to help us fund the continued to fightback against the far-right and the Tories across the country.
Yes, we lost Copeland. And we must do so much more if we’re going to win the next election.
But I’ve seen everything we need to win across the country right here in Stoke these last few weeks.
Let’s keep building.
In solidarity,
Liz Hames
Momentum activist
0 -
You're a rorty wee chap, ain't you. More Brexitloon wine o'clock?chestnut said:
You spotted a typo - well done, Divvie.Theuniondivvie said:
'eduactaional'chestnut said:
God, you're a prize helmet.murali_s said:
You're the ignorant moron. Have you been to London and the Grammar schools here? Have you spoken with people who work in education - they will tell you that WWC educational aspiration is a HUGE issue.chestnut said:
How do you think the young afro-caribbean community do?murali_s said:
It's true - speak to people in education you dimwit - you can start with TeachFirst.chestnut said:
Some of the most racist bollocks ever written on this site.murali_s said:The problem with the WWC is the lack of educational aspiration. It is sadly close to non-existent. Policy makers must really focus on this issue rather than pay lip service to it.
People from the 'immigrant' working class simply do better. We need to close this gap. I know it's going to require a huge cultural shift but it can be done.
You don't have a chip on your shoulder; it's a jacket potato.
Moron.
Try and describe 'the WWC'. Go on, have a go, sonny.
Then, try and tell me how many WWC there are left in London. Not a lot. They all got fed up with school standards falling due to people who were ESOL.
If you think churning out kids with GCSE's that go on to do 'Business Studies' so they can get a shiny suit from Mister Byrite is a sign of improvement - you're an idiot. As are many in the eduactaional establishment.
Good one.
Now perhaps you'd like to go back to your Panelbase figures from earlier and explain why Labour were down 17 and the rest were up 32.0 -
They can't pretend everyone wasn't at Hillsborough though can they?MyBurningEars said:This is a great thread @Stodge. To cheer everyone up, here is the latest Momentum email to me.
We stopped UKIP
We beat UKIP in Stoke and stopped Paul Nuttall from getting into Parliament. I’m proud I was a part of it.
Over the last few weeks I’ve been carpooling up to volunteer on the campaign.
The people I met have inspired me and I made some great friends through the Momentum Carpooling website. Our movement gives me hope.
Share this with friends and family to let the world know what we can do together and click here to help us fund the continued to fightback against the far-right and the Tories across the country.
Yes, we lost Copeland. And we must do so much more if we’re going to win the next election.
But I’ve seen everything we need to win across the country right here in Stoke these last few weeks.
Let’s keep building.
In solidarity,
Liz Hames
Momentum activist0 -
If Labour could do well as they did in Stoke at every by-election for the rest of this parliament it only points to a 19 pt loss at the next GE. Better than Copeland mind, that'd mean Labour getting sub 20.MyBurningEars said:This is a great thread @Stodge. To cheer everyone up, here is the latest Momentum email to me.
We stopped UKIP
We beat UKIP in Stoke and stopped Paul Nuttall from getting into Parliament. I’m proud I was a part of it.
Over the last few weeks I’ve been carpooling up to volunteer on the campaign.
The people I met have inspired me and I made some great friends through the Momentum Carpooling website. Our movement gives me hope.
Share this with friends and family to let the world know what we can do together and click here to help us fund the continued to fightback against the far-right and the Tories across the country.
Yes, we lost Copeland. And we must do so much more if we’re going to win the next election.
But I’ve seen everything we need to win across the country right here in Stoke these last few weeks.
Let’s keep building.
In solidarity,
Liz Hames
Momentum activist0 -
Somebody is a little upset. Corbyn is many things, but UKIP arse licker...really...I mean terrorist sympathiser ok, but UKIP arse licker, I mean that is over the line.Theuniondivvie said:No more Slabbers left.
https://twitter.com/IrvineWelsh/status/8358540291923312640 -
It's probably the easiest place in Britain, and arguably Europe, to make a living.rcs1000 said:London used to be at the bottom of the school league tables and is now towards the top. Of course, this could be due to everywhere else in the country getting massively worse, but relatively at least, London has improved massively in the last 15 years.
There are lots of arguments about why: is it government policy? Or something else.
I don't know the answer.
I have numerous friends and family who have made very handsome livings - to the point of owning football clubs - on the back of little to no school qualifications. Many went on to vocational ones, mind.
0 -
Two articles.
Financial Times: "Le Pen’s online army leads far-right fight for French presidency | Social media unit and shadowy networks use shock tactics to push National Front agenda."
"The FN online unit is at the forefront. A dedicated and powerful group, the messages it pumps out form the bedrock of an aggressive social media operation that is the most powerful in French politics. Ms Le Pen has 1.3m Twitter followers, and almost as many Facebook “likes”, more than twice as many as Mr Macron (...) Fillon (...) has even fewer. (...) More anti-Macron videos are expected. (...) The lines between the FN and online far-right are fluid. Often the latter will go much further than the party, which has made efforts to detoxify itself. In one recent case, activists set up parody Twitter accounts giving Muslim names to Ms Le Pen’s rivals. (...) The FN distanced itself from the incident."
Atlantico: Five factors that could surface to change the course of the election:
1) Hamon gets a boost from Mélenchon withdrawing (unlikely to happen now, given that talks failed, but it's still possible that Mélenchon will see sense)
2) Part of the right plays at rescuing Fillon while secretly wanting him to lose (could be happening; he said he was ready to drop out if indicted, then that he wouldn't; somebody may well be playing with him)
3) The FN joins up with the outsider right ("la droite hors les murs" - this means not the ultra-right but the area between the FN and LR: figures such as Patrick Buisson, Philippe de Villiers, and Eric Zemmour)
4) François Bayrou steps in (this one didn't happen)
5) Russian interference and revelations about Emmanuel Macron using material from Hillary Clinton's emails (likely, even if not from Clinton emails; Macrongate has subsided only temporarily; take on one opponent at a time - that's what Trump did).0 -
Aw, bless - you're trying to patronise.Theuniondivvie said:
You're a rorty wee chap, ain't you. More Brexitloon wine o'clock?chestnut said:
You spotted a typo - well done, Divvie.Theuniondivvie said:
'eduactaional'chestnut said:
God, you're a prize helmet.murali_s said:
You're the ignorant moron. Have you been to London and the Grammar schools here? Have you spoken with people who work in education - they will tell you that WWC educational aspiration is a HUGE issue.chestnut said:
How do you think the young afro-caribbean community do?murali_s said:
It's true - speak to people in education you dimwit - you can start with TeachFirst.chestnut said:
Some of the most racist bollocks ever written on this site.murali_s said:The problem with the WWC is the lack of educational aspiration. It is sadly close to non-existent. Policy makers must really focus on this issue rather than pay lip service to it.
People from the 'immigrant' working class simply do better. We need to close this gap. I know it's going to require a huge cultural shift but it can be done.
You don't have a chip on your shoulder; it's a jacket potato.
Moron.
Try and describe 'the WWC'. Go on, have a go, sonny.
Then, try and tell me how many WWC there are left in London. Not a lot. They all got fed up with school standards falling due to people who were ESOL.
If you think churning out kids with GCSE's that go on to do 'Business Studies' so they can get a shiny suit from Mister Byrite is a sign of improvement - you're an idiot. As are many in the eduactaional establishment.
Good one.
Now perhaps you'd like to go back to your Panelbase figures from earlier and explain why Labour were down 17 and the rest were up 32.0 -
Part of the answer is the increasing numbers of Asian kids in London schools.chestnut said:
It's probably the easiest place in Britain, and arguably Europe, to make a living.rcs1000 said:London used to be at the bottom of the school league tables and is now towards the top. Of course, this could be due to everywhere else in the country getting massively worse, but relatively at least, London has improved massively in the last 15 years.
There are lots of arguments about why: is it government policy? Or something else.
I don't know the answer.
I have numerous friends and family who have made very handsome livings - to the point of owning football clubs - on the back of little to no school qualifications. Many went on to vocational ones, mind.0 -
And who has these negative connotations about an English identity ?nielh said:I don't understand these comments that suggest criticism of the English is somehow racist.
I'm still waiting to get a full answer from SeanT about what special racial characteristics he thinks the English have.
On the broader question - notwithstanding the leave vote - many people in England simply don't identify postively with an English identity due to its negative connotations (racism, white supremacy, football violence) they would rather identify with a British identity or - in a minority of cases - a European identity. This is probably why it is not used in political literature particularly for the mainstream parties.
I suppose that the ultimate truth is just that we don't really know what our 'English' identity is.
Its hard to think of any other country or region of Europe with a similar predicament.
Would they be concentrated in London and on the political left ?0 -
I seem to recall that the place in England where people most strongly identify as "English" rather than "British" is Canvey Island. The elixir of Englishness can apparently be found on the Essex marshes.nielh said:I don't understand these comments that suggest criticism of the English is somehow racist.
I'm still waiting to get a full answer from SeanT about what special racial characteristics he thinks the English have.
On the broader question - notwithstanding the leave vote - many people in England simply don't identify postively with an English identity due to its negative connotations (racism, white supremacy, football violence) they would rather identify with a British identity or - in a minority of cases - a European identity. This is probably why it is not used in political literature particularly for the mainstream parties.
I suppose that the ultimate truth is just that we don't really know what our 'English' identity is.
Its hard to think of any other country or region of Europe with a similar predicament.
In fact Essex as a whole identifies unusually strongly as "English" - I suspect this is part of the reason why Carswell is the only UKIP MP, why Havering (which morally still seems to self-identify as part of Essex, whatever the map shows - denizens of Romford or Hornchurch or Upminster still call themselves "Essex" in a way that folk in Ilford or Barking or Leyton have almost entirely ceased to) was the most leave-leaning corner of London.
I think there really is such a thing as an Essex state of mind - isam on here captures it very clearly (not just in his own opinions, but when he expresses the views of family, friends and people he knows).0 -
Will need a few more by-elections and the locals to confirm, but Labour could be in danger of losing their remain flank en masse.FrancisUrquhart said:
Somebody is a little upset. Corbyn is many things, but UKIP arse licker...really...I mean terrorist sympathiser ok, but UKIP arse licker, I mean that is over the line.Theuniondivvie said:No more Slabbers left.
https://twitter.com/IrvineWelsh/status/835854029192331264
Richmond Park , Sleaford & North Hykeham, Stoke Central, Copeland
were all very different seats but they all have an absolutely awful Labour performance in common.
Witney was OK on the surface - but should the main opposition really be losing vote share in a seat where the former PM was standing down ?! No 3rd party insurgency there either.
Labour's performances in by-elections have looked markedly worse to me after the referendum. Not just Copeland.0 -
What do you mean by that ?IanB2 said:
Part of the answer is the increasing numbers of Asian kids in London schools.chestnut said:
It's probably the easiest place in Britain, and arguably Europe, to make a living.rcs1000 said:London used to be at the bottom of the school league tables and is now towards the top. Of course, this could be due to everywhere else in the country getting massively worse, but relatively at least, London has improved massively in the last 15 years.
There are lots of arguments about why: is it government policy? Or something else.
I don't know the answer.
I have numerous friends and family who have made very handsome livings - to the point of owning football clubs - on the back of little to no school qualifications. Many went on to vocational ones, mind.0 -
A few hundred quid goes on Clive Lewis in the last few hours @7s
Maybe related: http://www.itv.com/news/2017-02-26/clive-lewis-denies-registering-secret-websites-in-preparation-for-labour-leadership-bid/
As ever I consider anything at 7/1 or shorter too short as it reliant on Corbyn going soon, that candidate standing, and that candidate winning.
0 -
Yes and some of them are regular posters on here.another_richard said:And who has these negative connotations about an English identity ?
Would they be concentrated in London and on the political left ?0 -
' The general churn of expensive London life means the stupider (of all races) tend to give up and move out 'SeanT said:
He's right, and I speak as a London parent. London state schools are now some of the best in Europe.chestnut said:
Compared to what? Their own dumbed down league tables? Teaching to the curriculum?rcs1000 said:
(Ummm: haven't London school standards gone through the roof in the last 15 years?)chestnut said:
God, you're a prize helmet.murali_s said:
You're the ignorant moron. Have you been to London and the Grammar schools here? Have you spoken with people who work in education - they will tell you that WWC educational aspiration is a HUGE issue.
Try and describe 'the WWC'. Go on, have a go, sonny.
Then, try and tell me how many WWC there are left in London. Not a lot. They all got fed up with school standards falling due to people who were ESOL.
If you think churning out kids with GCSE's that go on to do 'Business Studies' so they can get a shiny suit from Mister Byrite is a sign of improvement - you're an idiot. As are many in the eduactaional establishment.
If they've been a great success, Robert - why do we 'need' EU immigration? Why is there a shortfall of skills?
Why can't you find a Sri Lankan or Bangladeshi plumber or electrician?
There are multiple explanations, equally valid. For a start, money was pumped in, from Free Schools to Academies. The best teachers are attracted to London, despite the costs. Immigrant kids are very competitive (Tiger Mums etc) which means locals have to up their game. Tutoring is widespread: London kids work harder. The general churn of expensive London life means the stupider (of all races) tend to give up and move out. So the kids are brighter.
Plus London museums, culture, etc etc
It's a real thing and it's not easily copied, unfortunately. But we must try.
Its actually sensible for most people in London to move out as they'll get a much higher quality of life elsewhere.
So London increasingly becomes a city of the rich and the poor or the highly intelligent and the utterly stupid.
How that affects education I don't know.
0 -
Their performance stats are substantially better. Take this piece of work:Tykejohnno said:
What do you mean by that ?IanB2 said:
Part of the answer is the increasing numbers of Asian kids in London schools.chestnut said:
It's probably the easiest place in Britain, and arguably Europe, to make a living.rcs1000 said:London used to be at the bottom of the school league tables and is now towards the top. Of course, this could be due to everywhere else in the country getting massively worse, but relatively at least, London has improved massively in the last 15 years.
There are lots of arguments about why: is it government policy? Or something else.
I don't know the answer.
I have numerous friends and family who have made very handsome livings - to the point of owning football clubs - on the back of little to no school qualifications. Many went on to vocational ones, mind.
http://www2.le.ac.uk/offices/press/think-leicester/education/2016/against-the-odds-ethnic-minority-students-are-excelling-at-school
The figures from the second bar chart on free schhol meals children by ethnicity is pretty shocking for poor white kids.
0 -
Probably. Maybe Essex, Kent, Norfolk too. Certainly when you see flags of St George flying from houses one does tend to assume they're being flown by boneheaded white racists, which in most cases is probably accurate. But most people who feel English or strongly English don't do things like that.another_richard said:
And who has these negative connotations about an English identity ?nielh said:I don't understand these comments that suggest criticism of the English is somehow racist.
I'm still waiting to get a full answer from SeanT about what special racial characteristics he thinks the English have.
On the broader question - notwithstanding the leave vote - many people in England simply don't identify postively with an English identity due to its negative connotations (racism, white supremacy, football violence) they would rather identify with a British identity or - in a minority of cases - a European identity. This is probably why it is not used in political literature particularly for the mainstream parties.
I suppose that the ultimate truth is just that we don't really know what our 'English' identity is.
Its hard to think of any other country or region of Europe with a similar predicament.
Would they be concentrated in London and on the political left ?
I'm on the left, from the London area, not from any ethnic minority, and I feel and think of myself as English and British but slightly more English. Typically in Scotland most indigenous people consider themselves both Scottish and British, but more than "slightly" more Scottish.
What I don't feel is "UK". That's an annoying term when used for the country Britain. It's like calling France "the Fifth Republic" or Spain "the Kingdom of Spain".0 -
Bangladeshi girls outperforming Indian girls and everyone else bar the Chinese. Three MPs already.foxinsoxuk said:
Their performance stats are substantially better. Take this piece of work:Tykejohnno said:
What do you mean by that ?IanB2 said:
Part of the answer is the increasing numbers of Asian kids in London schools.chestnut said:
It's probably the easiest place in Britain, and arguably Europe, to make a living.rcs1000 said:London used to be at the bottom of the school league tables and is now towards the top. Of course, this could be due to everywhere else in the country getting massively worse, but relatively at least, London has improved massively in the last 15 years.
There are lots of arguments about why: is it government policy? Or something else.
I don't know the answer.
I have numerous friends and family who have made very handsome livings - to the point of owning football clubs - on the back of little to no school qualifications. Many went on to vocational ones, mind.
http://www2.le.ac.uk/offices/press/think-leicester/education/2016/against-the-odds-ethnic-minority-students-are-excelling-at-school
The figures from the second bar chart on free schhol meals children by ethnicity is pretty shocking for poor white kids.0 -
The underground spread of better skills - or more shameless audacity - at figure-fiddling?rcs1000 said:
London used to be at the bottom of the school league tables and is now towards the top. Of course, this could be due to everywhere else in the country getting massively worse, but relatively at least, London has improved massively in the last 15 years.chestnut said:
Compared to what? Their own dumbed down league tables? Teaching to the curriculum?rcs1000 said:
(Ummm: haven't London school standards gone through the roof in the last 15 years?)chestnut said:
God, you're a prize helmet.murali_s said:
You're the ignorant moron. Have you been to London and the Grammar schools here? Have you spoken with people who work in education - they will tell you that WWC educational aspiration is a HUGE issue.chestnut said:
How do you think the young afro-caribbean community do?murali_s said:
It's true - speak to people in education you dimwit - you can start with TeachFirst.chestnut said:
Some of the most racist bollocks ever written on this site.murali_s said:The problem with the WWC is the lack of educational aspiration. It is sadly close to non-existent. Policy makers must really focus on this issue rather than pay lip service to it.
People from the 'immigrant' working class simply do better. We need to close this gap. I know it's going to require a huge cultural shift but it can be done.
You don't have a chip on your shoulder; it's a jacket potato.
Moron.
Try and describe 'the WWC'. Go on, have a go, sonny.
Then, try and tell me how many WWC there are left in London. Not a lot. They all got fed up with school standards falling due to people who were ESOL.
If you think churning out kids with GCSE's that go on to do 'Business Studies' so they can get a shiny suit from Mister Byrite is a sign of improvement - you're an idiot. As are many in the eduactaional establishment.
If they've been a great success, Robert - why do we 'need' EU immigration? Why is there a shortfall of skills?
Why can't you find a Sri Lankan or Bangladeshi plumber or electrician?
There are lots of arguments about why: is it government policy? Or something else.
I don't know the answer.0 -
Not sure being an MP is any indication of "outperforming"surbiton said:
Bangladeshi girls outperforming Indian girls and everyone else bar the Chinese. Three MPs already.foxinsoxuk said:
Their performance stats are substantially better. Take this piece of work:Tykejohnno said:
What do you mean by that ?IanB2 said:
Part of the answer is the increasing numbers of Asian kids in London schools.chestnut said:
It's probably the easiest place in Britain, and arguably Europe, to make a living.rcs1000 said:London used to be at the bottom of the school league tables and is now towards the top. Of course, this could be due to everywhere else in the country getting massively worse, but relatively at least, London has improved massively in the last 15 years.
There are lots of arguments about why: is it government policy? Or something else.
I don't know the answer.
I have numerous friends and family who have made very handsome livings - to the point of owning football clubs - on the back of little to no school qualifications. Many went on to vocational ones, mind.
http://www2.le.ac.uk/offices/press/think-leicester/education/2016/against-the-odds-ethnic-minority-students-are-excelling-at-school
The figures from the second bar chart on free schhol meals children by ethnicity is pretty shocking for poor white kids.
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The country does require a proper Opposition which could function as a credible alternative Government, but surely Labour cannot now be that party. It has not come to terms with the 2008 economic collapse and probably it never will. It is weighed down by its links to organised labour and the public services.
The Conservatives will lose support once the economic and political isolation of Brexit becomes apparent. A new mainstream party of government is needed, and the only possibility for this is the Liberal Democrats. Tribal loyalty may hold back some Conservatives and Labour supporters from joining them at the moment, but they are now the only potential alternative to Conservative government. Labour has had the chance to change but it would prefer to disengage from government, just as Brexiteers want to disengage from Europe.0 -
What utter garbage ! Who would want to live in the sticks ? For a start, there is no noise.another_richard said:
' The general churn of expensive London life means the stupider (of all races) tend to give up and move out 'SeanT said:
He's right, and I speak as a London parent. London state schools are now some of the best in Europe.chestnut said:
Compared to what? Their own dumbed down league tables? Teaching to the curriculum?rcs1000 said:
(Ummm: haven't London school standards gone through the roof in the last 15 years?)chestnut said:
God, you're a prize helmet.murali_s said:
You're the ignorant moron. Have you been to London and the Grammar schools here? Have you spoken with people who work in education - they will tell you that WWC educational aspiration is a HUGE issue.
Try and describe 'the WWC'. Go on, have a go, sonny.
Then, try and tell me how many WWC there are left in London. Not a lot. They all got fed up with school standards falling due to people who were ESOL.
If you think churning out kids with GCSE's that go on to do 'Business Studies' so they can get a shiny suit from Mister Byrite is a sign of improvement - you're an idiot. As are many in the eduactaional establishment.
If they've been a great success, Robert - why do we 'need' EU immigration? Why is there a shortfall of skills?
Why can't you find a Sri Lankan or Bangladeshi plumber or electrician?
There are multiple explanations, equally valid. For a start, money was pumped in, from Free Schools to Academies. The best teachers are attracted to London, despite the costs. Immigrant kids are very competitive (Tiger Mums etc) which means locals have to up their game. Tutoring is widespread: London kids work harder. The general churn of expensive London life means the stupider (of all races) tend to give up and move out. So the kids are brighter.
Plus London museums, culture, etc etc
It's a real thing and it's not easily copied, unfortunately. But we must try.
Its actually sensible for most people in London to move out as they'll get a much higher quality of life elsewhere.
So London increasingly becomes a city of the rich and the poor or the highly intelligent and the utterly stupid.
How that affects education I don't know.0 -
Starmer the Stormer !TheWhiteRabbit said:A few hundred quid goes on Clive Lewis in the last few hours @7s
Maybe related: http://www.itv.com/news/2017-02-26/clive-lewis-denies-registering-secret-websites-in-preparation-for-labour-leadership-bid/
As ever I consider anything at 7/1 or shorter too short as it reliant on Corbyn going soon, that candidate standing, and that candidate winning.0 -
I don't particularly support England in the football, but it is not because of the fans. I am a football fan myself. The reason is that the England team is composed of a bunch of poncey divers who I spend many a happy hour abusing the rest of the year. Wayne Rooney is a fat granny shagger, Raheem Sterling a bit too tired to run, Harry Kane is a mouth breather etc. It is just impossible for me to abuse them one week and then when they don another shirt cheer them. Their consistent failure to perform doesn't change my mind either!Cyan said:
Probably. Maybe Essex, Kent, Norfolk too. Certainly when you see flags of St George flying from houses one does tend to assume they're being flown by boneheaded white racists, which in most cases is probably accurate. But most people who feel English or strongly English don't do things like that.another_richard said:
And who has these negative connotations about an English identity ?nielh said:I don't understand these comments that suggest criticism of the English is somehow racist.
I'm still waiting to get a full answer from SeanT about what special racial characteristics he thinks the English have.
On the broader question - notwithstanding the leave vote - many people in England simply don't identify postively with an English identity due to its negative connotations (racism, white supremacy, football violence) they would rather identify with a British identity or - in a minority of cases - a European identity. This is probably why it is not used in political literature particularly for the mainstream parties.
I suppose that the ultimate truth is just that we don't really know what our 'English' identity is.
Its hard to think of any other country or region of Europe with a similar predicament.
Would they be concentrated in London and on the political left ?
I'm on the left, from the London area, not from any ethnic minority, and I feel and think of myself as English and British but slightly more English. Typically in Scotland most indigenous people consider themselves both Scottish and British, but more than "slightly" more Scottish.
What I don't feel is "UK". That's an annoying term when used for the country Britain. It's like calling France "the Fifth Republic" or Spain "the Kingdom of Spain".
Quite happy to support England in other sports though.0
