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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » LAB’s loss to the SDP in the Greenwich by-election exactly 30

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    TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362

    IanB2 said:

    chestnut said:

    rcs1000 said:

    London used to be at the bottom of the school league tables and is now towards the top. Of course, this could be due to everywhere else in the country getting massively worse, but relatively at least, London has improved massively in the last 15 years.

    There are lots of arguments about why: is it government policy? Or something else.

    I don't know the answer.

    It's probably the easiest place in Britain, and arguably Europe, to make a living.

    I have numerous friends and family who have made very handsome livings - to the point of owning football clubs - on the back of little to no school qualifications. Many went on to vocational ones, mind.



    Part of the answer is the increasing numbers of Asian kids in London schools.
    What do you mean by that ?
    Their performance stats are substantially better. Take this piece of work:

    http://www2.le.ac.uk/offices/press/think-leicester/education/2016/against-the-odds-ethnic-minority-students-are-excelling-at-school

    The figures from the second bar chart on free schhol meals children by ethnicity is pretty shocking for poor white kids.

    What do put bradford's poor education results down too ? I just find this up grade in results down to a certain race pretty distasteful.
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    IanB2 said:

    chestnut said:

    rcs1000 said:

    London used to be at the bottom of the school league tables and is now towards the top. Of course, this could be due to everywhere else in the country getting massively worse, but relatively at least, London has improved massively in the last 15 years.

    There are lots of arguments about why: is it government policy? Or something else.

    I don't know the answer.

    It's probably the easiest place in Britain, and arguably Europe, to make a living.

    I have numerous friends and family who have made very handsome livings - to the point of owning football clubs - on the back of little to no school qualifications. Many went on to vocational ones, mind.



    Part of the answer is the increasing numbers of Asian kids in London schools.
    What do you mean by that ?
    They are very intelligent and hard working. Family pressure !
  • Options
    Pulpstar said:

    Somebody is a little upset. Corbyn is many things, but UKIP arse licker...really...I mean terrorist sympathiser ok, but UKIP arse licker, I mean that is over the line.
    Will need a few more by-elections and the locals to confirm, but Labour could be in danger of losing their remain flank en masse.

    Richmond Park , Sleaford & North Hykeham, Stoke Central, Copeland

    were all very different seats but they all have an absolutely awful Labour performance in common.

    Witney was OK on the surface - but should the main opposition really be losing vote share in a seat where the former PM was standing down ?! No 3rd party insurgency there either.

    Labour's performances in by-elections have looked markedly worse to me after the referendum. Not just Copeland.
    Now this is what a byelection normally looks like:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tooting_by-election,_2016
  • Options

    nielh said:

    I don't understand these comments that suggest criticism of the English is somehow racist.
    I'm still waiting to get a full answer from SeanT about what special racial characteristics he thinks the English have.
    On the broader question - notwithstanding the leave vote - many people in England simply don't identify postively with an English identity due to its negative connotations (racism, white supremacy, football violence) they would rather identify with a British identity or - in a minority of cases - a European identity. This is probably why it is not used in political literature particularly for the mainstream parties.
    I suppose that the ultimate truth is just that we don't really know what our 'English' identity is.
    Its hard to think of any other country or region of Europe with a similar predicament.

    I seem to recall that the place in England where people most strongly identify as "English" rather than "British" is Canvey Island. The elixir of Englishness can apparently be found on the Essex marshes.

    In fact Essex as a whole identifies unusually strongly as "English" - I suspect this is part of the reason why Carswell is the only UKIP MP, why Havering (which morally still seems to self-identify as part of Essex, whatever the map shows - denizens of Romford or Hornchurch or Upminster still call themselves "Essex" in a way that folk in Ilford or Barking or Leyton have almost entirely ceased to) was the most leave-leaning corner of London.

    I think there really is such a thing as an Essex state of mind - isam on here captures it very clearly (not just in his own opinions, but when he expresses the views of family, friends and people he knows).
    Have you ever watched Jonathan Meades' film on Essex?

    Might interest you... :)

    http://meadesshrine.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/essex.html
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Quite happy to support England in other sports though.

    The rugby team are doing their best to emulate the football team and a bunch of whining children.

    The irony of an England Rugby team complaining about "spoiling tactics" is piquant
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    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    West Midlands Police have decided to not prosecute parents who practice FGM on their daughters.......
    West Midlands PoliceVerified account
    @WMPolice

    @Manda_Ponium Hi Manda - education and safeguarding vulnerable girls is the focus. Prosecuting / jailing parents unlikely to benefit child.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,991
    edited February 2017

    Pulpstar said:

    Somebody is a little upset. Corbyn is many things, but UKIP arse licker...really...I mean terrorist sympathiser ok, but UKIP arse licker, I mean that is over the line.
    Will need a few more by-elections and the locals to confirm, but Labour could be in danger of losing their remain flank en masse.

    Richmond Park , Sleaford & North Hykeham, Stoke Central, Copeland

    were all very different seats but they all have an absolutely awful Labour performance in common.

    Witney was OK on the surface - but should the main opposition really be losing vote share in a seat where the former PM was standing down ?! No 3rd party insurgency there either.

    Labour's performances in by-elections have looked markedly worse to me after the referendum. Not just Copeland.
    Now this is what a byelection normally looks like:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tooting_by-election,_2016
    Yep - the Cameron vs Corbyn by-elections Corbyn wasn't doing too badly in but vs May Labour has been doing dreadfully in. The remain flank of Labour might be evaporating.
    Leigh might provide another useful data point. In normal times Labour will be getting 60%+ in that upcoming BE.
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    TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    surbiton said:

    IanB2 said:

    chestnut said:

    rcs1000 said:

    London used to be at the bottom of the school league tables and is now towards the top. Of course, this could be due to everywhere else in the country getting massively worse, but relatively at least, London has improved massively in the last 15 years.

    There are lots of arguments about why: is it government policy? Or something else.

    I don't know the answer.

    It's probably the easiest place in Britain, and arguably Europe, to make a living.

    I have numerous friends and family who have made very handsome livings - to the point of owning football clubs - on the back of little to no school qualifications. Many went on to vocational ones, mind.



    Part of the answer is the increasing numbers of Asian kids in London schools.
    What do you mean by that ?
    They are very intelligent and hard working. Family pressure !
    Another lefty stereotyping,what do you put bradfords poor results down too ?
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,989
    Scott_P said:

    twitter.com/ftwestminster/status/835991127492800512

    Glad to see we have our priorities in order.
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    nielhnielh Posts: 1,307
    SeanT said:

    nielh said:

    I don't understand these comments that suggest criticism of the English is somehow racist.
    I'm still waiting to get a full answer from SeanT about what special racial characteristics he thinks the English have.
    On the broader question - notwithstanding the leave vote - many people in England simply don't identify postively with an English identity due to its negative connotations (racism, white supremacy, football violence) they would rather identify with a British identity or - in a minority of cases - a European identity. This is probably why it is not used in political literature particularly for the mainstream parties.
    I suppose that the ultimate truth is just that we don't really know what our 'English' identity is.
    Its hard to think of any other country or region of Europe with a similar predicament.

    Come come, you clearly identified our racial characteristics. You think we, the English, are LAZY and SHIT. That's what you said. You said the English, as a people, are LAZY and SHIT.

    SHIT. You think the English are SHIT. That's what you said. Try applying it to any other people and see how it sounds. There. That's what you sound like.
    Sean I think you are intelligent enough to know that 'lazy' and 'shit' are not racial characteristics.

    I think that you could just about accuse me of being an EU nationalist, but you can't call me a racist because England is a nation and not a race. FACT.

    I think you are taking my comments a bit too seriously. What I was saying was that the threat made by May and Hammond - that the UK will adopt a different economic model if they don't get a good deal from the EU - is total bluster. The English will not give up their comparatively high levels of welfare and government spending to become an ultra competitive, low tax, low spending, low regulation economy because it is completely against its existing national characteristics.
    Brexit won't be a priority and we will end up with a hard brexit with a crap deal with lots of loose ends. Thats what I think will happen. Not what I want, or what I believe, but what I think all the evidence points to.

  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    surbiton said:

    IanB2 said:

    chestnut said:

    rcs1000 said:

    London used to be at the bottom of the school league tables and is now towards the top. Of course, this could be due to everywhere else in the country getting massively worse, but relatively at least, London has improved massively in the last 15 years.

    There are lots of arguments about why: is it government policy? Or something else.

    I don't know the answer.

    It's probably the easiest place in Britain, and arguably Europe, to make a living.

    I have numerous friends and family who have made very handsome livings - to the point of owning football clubs - on the back of little to no school qualifications. Many went on to vocational ones, mind.



    Part of the answer is the increasing numbers of Asian kids in London schools.
    What do you mean by that ?
    They are very intelligent and hard working. Family pressure !
    Another lefty stereotyping,what do you put bradfords poor results down too ?
    Pakistanis ?
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    RobD said:

    Glad to see we have our priorities in order.

    Indeed. Also not clear why an EU asset would be returned to the Tory party, but logic is in short supply in the Brexit camp
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    IanB2 said:

    chestnut said:

    rcs1000 said:

    London used to be at the bottom of the school league tables and is now towards the top. Of course, this could be due to everywhere else in the country getting massively worse, but relatively at least, London has improved massively in the last 15 years.

    There are lots of arguments about why: is it government policy? Or something else.

    I don't know the answer.

    It's probably the easiest place in Britain, and arguably Europe, to make a living.

    I have numerous friends and family who have made very handsome livings - to the point of owning football clubs - on the back of little to no school qualifications. Many went on to vocational ones, mind.



    Part of the answer is the increasing numbers of Asian kids in London schools.
    What do you mean by that ?
    Their performance stats are substantially better. Take this piece of work:

    http://www2.le.ac.uk/offices/press/think-leicester/education/2016/against-the-odds-ethnic-minority-students-are-excelling-at-school

    The figures from the second bar chart on free schhol meals children by ethnicity is pretty shocking for poor white kids.

    What do put bradford's poor education results down too ? I just find this up grade in results down to a certain race pretty distasteful.
    If you look at the bar charts in the paper, Pakistani boys on free school meals also perform poorly. Obviously these are ovetall performances with plenty of scope for individual variation.

    What are the reasons? a multitude I suspect, but I think genetic diferences are exagerrated. All groups regress to the mean over time. Mostly I suspect poor upbringing and lack of motivation. There is also a real anti-intellectual streak in British culture. Even a former Education Minister said he had "no need of experts".

  • Options
    TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    IanB2 said:

    chestnut said:

    rcs1000 said:

    London used to be at the bottom of the school league tables and is now towards the top. Of course, this could be due to everywhere else in the country getting massively worse, but relatively at least, London has improved massively in the last 15 years.

    There are lots of arguments about why: is it government policy? Or something else.

    I don't know the answer.

    It's probably the easiest place in Britain, and arguably Europe, to make a living.

    I have numerous friends and family who have made very handsome livings - to the point of owning football clubs - on the back of little to no school qualifications. Many went on to vocational ones, mind.



    Part of the answer is the increasing numbers of Asian kids in London schools.
    What do you mean by that ?
    They are very intelligent and hard working. Family pressure !
    Another lefty stereotyping,what do you put bradfords poor results down too ?
    Pakistanis ?
    You have something to tell me ?
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @ZoraSuleman: Sir Gerald Kaufman, Labour MP for Manchester Gorton and Father of The House of Commons, has died aged 86
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Somebody is a little upset. Corbyn is many things, but UKIP arse licker...really...I mean terrorist sympathiser ok, but UKIP arse licker, I mean that is over the line.
    Will need a few more by-elections and the locals to confirm, but Labour could be in danger of losing their remain flank en masse.

    Richmond Park , Sleaford & North Hykeham, Stoke Central, Copeland

    were all very different seats but they all have an absolutely awful Labour performance in common.

    Witney was OK on the surface - but should the main opposition really be losing vote share in a seat where the former PM was standing down ?! No 3rd party insurgency there either.

    Labour's performances in by-elections have looked markedly worse to me after the referendum. Not just Copeland.
    Now this is what a byelection normally looks like:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tooting_by-election,_2016
    Yep - the Cameron vs Corbyn by-elections Corbyn wasn't doing too badly in but vs May Labour has been doing dreadfully in. The remain flank of Labour might be evaporating.
    Leigh might provide another useful data point. In normal times Labour will be getting 60%+ in that upcoming BE.
    Yes, that is correct. While the Labour voters are overwhelmingly Remainers, the Politburo has decided that we have to woo the disgruntled, fucked-up WWC who have fled to the Tories / UKIP.

    The fact is they fled sometime ago - before the referendum. The Remain / Leave split in the Labour vote is now very similar to that of June last year. If anything, the Brexit part may have increased marginally because some Remainers have moved over to the LD / Greens.
  • Options
    CyanCyan Posts: 1,262
    edited February 2017

    Their performance stats are substantially better. Take this piece of work:

    http://www2.le.ac.uk/offices/press/think-leicester/education/2016/against-the-odds-ethnic-minority-students-are-excelling-at-school

    The figures from the second bar chart on free schhol meals children by ethnicity is pretty shocking for poor white kids.

    This seems like good research, but the results for Asian pupils are not really "against the odds" as Saeeda Shah or a headline writer at Leicester University's press office describes them. Parental support is by far the most important factor in children's educational performance. As for "social mobility", many Chinese immigrants since 1997 have been well-heeled.

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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,991
    RIP Kaufman.

    Gorton by-election though.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,989

    nielh said:

    I don't understand these comments that suggest criticism of the English is somehow racist.
    I'm still waiting to get a full answer from SeanT about what special racial characteristics he thinks the English have.
    On the broader question - notwithstanding the leave vote - many people in England simply don't identify postively with an English identity due to its negative connotations (racism, white supremacy, football violence) they would rather identify with a British identity or - in a minority of cases - a European identity. This is probably why it is not used in political literature particularly for the mainstream parties.
    I suppose that the ultimate truth is just that we don't really know what our 'English' identity is.
    Its hard to think of any other country or region of Europe with a similar predicament.

    I seem to recall that the place in England where people most strongly identify as "English" rather than "British" is Canvey Island. The elixir of Englishness can apparently be found on the Essex marshes.

    In fact Essex as a whole identifies unusually strongly as "English" - I suspect this is part of the reason why Carswell is the only UKIP MP, why Havering (which morally still seems to self-identify as part of Essex, whatever the map shows - denizens of Romford or Hornchurch or Upminster still call themselves "Essex" in a way that folk in Ilford or Barking or Leyton have almost entirely ceased to) was the most leave-leaning corner of London.

    I think there really is such a thing as an Essex state of mind - isam on here captures it very clearly (not just in his own opinions, but when he expresses the views of family, friends and people he knows).
    Do I?! I'm not sure if that's good or bad!

    Certainly true that people in Havering don't see themselves as Londoners. It sounds like showing off!
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    kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 3,963
    nielh said:

    SeanT said:

    nielh said:

    I don't understand these comments that suggest criticism of the English is somehow racist.
    I'm still waiting to get a full answer from SeanT about what special racial characteristics he thinks the English have.
    On the broader question - notwithstanding the leave vote - many people in England simply don't identify postively with an English identity due to its negative connotations (racism, white supremacy, football violence) they would rather identify with a British identity or - in a minority of cases - a European identity. This is probably why it is not used in political literature particularly for the mainstream parties.
    I suppose that the ultimate truth is just that we don't really know what our 'English' identity is.
    Its hard to think of any other country or region of Europe with a similar predicament.

    Come come, you clearly identified our racial characteristics. You think we, the English, are LAZY and SHIT. That's what you said. You said the English, as a people, are LAZY and SHIT.

    SHIT. You think the English are SHIT. That's what you said. Try applying it to any other people and see how it sounds. There. That's what you sound like.
    Sean I think you are intelligent enough to know that 'lazy' and 'shit' are not racial characteristics.

    I think that you could just about accuse me of being an EU nationalist, but you can't call me a racist because England is a nation and not a race. FACT.

    I think you are taking my comments a bit too seriously. What I was saying was that the threat made by May and Hammond - that the UK will adopt a different economic model if they don't get a good deal from the EU - is total bluster. The English will not give up their comparatively high levels of welfare and government spending to become an ultra competitive, low tax, low spending, low regulation economy because it is completely against its existing national characteristics.
    Brexit won't be a priority and we will end up with a hard brexit with a crap deal with lots of loose ends. Thats what I think will happen. Not what I want, or what I believe, but what I think all the evidence points to.

    Islam isn't a race either, but try to criticise it without being called a racist...

    If you're going to call a group of broadly ethnically and geographically homogenous people lazy and shit then it's splitting hairs to claim you're not a racist... even if it doesn't meet the truest definition of the word.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,989
    Pulpstar said:

    RIP Kaufman.

    Gorton by-election though.

    RIP

    Extremely safe seat though. Who's the new Father of the House?
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Cyan said:

    Their performance stats are substantially better. Take this piece of work:

    http://www2.le.ac.uk/offices/press/think-leicester/education/2016/against-the-odds-ethnic-minority-students-are-excelling-at-school

    The figures from the second bar chart on free schhol meals children by ethnicity is pretty shocking for poor white kids.

    This seems like good research, but the results for Asian pupils are not really "against the odds". Parental support is by far the most important factor in children's educational performance. As for "social mobility", many Chinese immigrants since 1997 have been well-heeled.

    Look at the figures for Chinese on free school meals. They beat the national average.

    I think the most significant reason that WWC and Black Carribean boys do so badly is due to lots of broken homes with an absence of positive role models.

  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,138
    Scott_P said:

    @ZoraSuleman: Sir Gerald Kaufman, Labour MP for Manchester Gorton and Father of The House of Commons, has died aged 86

    RIP Sir Gerald after a long political career however the by election should be a comfortable Labour hold with 67% voting Labour at the last general election which should give Corbyn a minor boost after Copeland
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Sorry to hear the news that Gerald Kaufman has died. He'd been a Manchester MP since 1970.
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    IanB2 said:

    chestnut said:

    rcs1000 said:

    London used to be at the bottom of the school league tables and is now towards the top. Of course, this could be due to everywhere else in the country getting massively worse, but relatively at least, London has improved massively in the last 15 years.

    There are lots of arguments about why: is it government policy? Or something else.

    I don't know the answer.

    It's probably the easiest place in Britain, and arguably Europe, to make a living.

    I have numerous friends and family who have made very handsome livings - to the point of owning football clubs - on the back of little to no school qualifications. Many went on to vocational ones, mind.



    Part of the answer is the increasing numbers of Asian kids in London schools.
    What do you mean by that ?
    Their performance stats are substantially better. Take this piece of work:

    http://www2.le.ac.uk/offices/press/think-leicester/education/2016/against-the-odds-ethnic-minority-students-are-excelling-at-school

    The figures from the second bar chart on free schhol meals children by ethnicity is pretty shocking for poor white kids.

    What do put bradford's poor education results down too ? I just find this up grade in results down to a certain race pretty distasteful.
    If you look at the bar charts in the paper, Pakistani boys on free school meals also perform poorly. Obviously these are ovetall performances with plenty of scope for individual variation.

    What are the reasons? a multitude I suspect, but I think genetic diferences are exagerrated. All groups regress to the mean over time. Mostly I suspect poor upbringing and lack of motivation. There is also a real anti-intellectual streak in British culture. Even a former Education Minister said he had "no need of experts".

    The Mosque plays less influence on Bangladeshis than say Pakistanis who are both Muslim. Bangladesh itself is now showing how to progress on social indicators compared to other third world countries.

    Who would have believed that the birth rate in Bangladesh will drop to 2.11 which is what it is today. By 2030, the population will actually fall.

    One of Hans Rosling's great videos.

    https://www.gapminder.org/videos/gapmindervideos/gapcast-5-bangladesh-miracle/
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,131
    RobD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    RIP Kaufman.

    Gorton by-election though.

    RIP

    Extremely safe seat though. Who's the new Father of the House?
    Ken is the leader of the GLC Father of the House.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    HYUFD said:

    RIP Sir Gerald after a long political career however the by election should be a comfortable Labour hold with 67% voting Labour at the last general election which should give Corbyn a minor boost after Copeland

    Should be a comfortable hold, but the campaign could be "if you want to get rid of Corbyn"...
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    rcs1000 said:

    chestnut said:

    rcs1000 said:

    chestnut said:

    murali_s said:

    chestnut said:

    murali_s said:

    chestnut said:

    murali_s said:

    The problem with the WWC is the lack of educational aspiration. It is sadly close to non-existent. Policy makers must really focus on this issue rather than pay lip service to it.

    People from the 'immigrant' working class simply do better. We need to close this gap. I know it's going to require a huge cultural shift but it can be done.

    Some of the most racist bollocks ever written on this site.
    It's true - speak to people in education you dimwit - you can start with TeachFirst.
    How do you think the young afro-caribbean community do?

    You don't have a chip on your shoulder; it's a jacket potato.

    Moron.
    You're the ignorant moron. Have you been to London and the Grammar schools here? Have you spoken with people who work in education - they will tell you that WWC educational aspiration is a HUGE issue.
    God, you're a prize helmet. :smile:

    Try and describe 'the WWC'. Go on, have a go, sonny.

    Then, try and tell me how many WWC there are left in London. Not a lot. They all got fed up with school standards falling due to people who were ESOL.

    If you think churning out kids with GCSE's that go on to do 'Business Studies' so they can get a shiny suit from Mister Byrite is a sign of improvement - you're an idiot. As are many in the eduactaional establishment.

    (Ummm: haven't London school standards gone through the roof in the last 15 years?)
    Compared to what? Their own dumbed down league tables? Teaching to the curriculum?

    If they've been a great success, Robert - why do we 'need' EU immigration? Why is there a shortfall of skills?

    Why can't you find a Sri Lankan or Bangladeshi plumber or electrician?

    London used to be at the bottom of the school league tables and is now towards the top. Of course, this could be due to everywhere else in the country getting massively worse, but relatively at least, London has improved massively in the last 15 years.

    There are lots of arguments about why: is it government policy? Or something else.

    I don't know the answer.
    Some would argue it's because Blair's government poured huge amounts of money into London schools.
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    oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831
    Hopefully the truth about Kaufman might start to emerge now.
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    RobD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    RIP Kaufman.

    Gorton by-election though.

    RIP

    Extremely safe seat though. Who's the new Father of the House?
    Ken Clarke!
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,991
    RobD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    RIP Kaufman.

    Gorton by-election though.

    RIP

    Extremely safe seat though. Who's the new Father of the House?
    It'll provide information though even if its not plainly visible at first.
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    RobD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    RIP Kaufman.

    Gorton by-election though.

    RIP

    Extremely safe seat though. Who's the new Father of the House?
    Ken Clarke!
    ..and I think Skinner (ie the Beast) may be next (as Clarke is due to retire at the next GE)..?
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    Cyan said:

    Their performance stats are substantially better. Take this piece of work:

    http://www2.le.ac.uk/offices/press/think-leicester/education/2016/against-the-odds-ethnic-minority-students-are-excelling-at-school

    The figures from the second bar chart on free schhol meals children by ethnicity is pretty shocking for poor white kids.

    This seems like good research, but the results for Asian pupils are not really "against the odds". Parental support is by far the most important factor in children's educational performance. As for "social mobility", many Chinese immigrants since 1997 have been well-heeled.

    Look at the figures for Chinese on free school meals. They beat the national average.

    I think the most significant reason that WWC and Black Carribean boys do so badly is due to lots of broken homes with an absence of positive role models.

    Sadly, that is correct. Family pressure / discipline does work. The same success was seen in Jewish kids 50 years ago.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:

    @ZoraSuleman: Sir Gerald Kaufman, Labour MP for Manchester Gorton and Father of The House of Commons, has died aged 86

    RIP Sir Gerald after a long political career however the by election should be a comfortable Labour hold with 67% voting Labour at the last general election which should give Corbyn a minor boost after Copeland
    Interesting to see the Greens were in second, and UKIP 4th. Unusual for an urbanseat. Lots of Students? If so then perhaps LD's can challenge (though obviously a massive majority, and byelections caused by mortalitytend to garner a sympathy vote)
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    RobD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    RIP Kaufman.

    Gorton by-election though.

    RIP

    Extremely safe seat though. Who's the new Father of the House?
    When there was an earthquake in Assam, the FT led with the headline: "Earthquake in Assam. Tea shares drop."

    When an MP dies, RIP is followed by "what's his majority ?"
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    Hopefully the truth about Kaufman might start to emerge now.

    What do you mean by that?
  • Options
    CornishBlueCornishBlue Posts: 840
    edited February 2017
    surbiton said:

    IanB2 said:

    chestnut said:

    rcs1000 said:

    London used to be at the bottom of the school league tables and is now towards the top. Of course, this could be due to everywhere else in the country getting massively worse, but relatively at least, London has improved massively in the last 15 years.

    There are lots of arguments about why: is it government policy? Or something else.

    I don't know the answer.

    It's probably the easiest place in Britain, and arguably Europe, to make a living.

    I have numerous friends and family who have made very handsome livings - to the point of owning football clubs - on the back of little to no school qualifications. Many went on to vocational ones, mind.



    Part of the answer is the increasing numbers of Asian kids in London schools.
    What do you mean by that ?
    Their performance stats are substantially better. Take this piece of work.

    The figures from the second bar chart on free schhol meals children by ethnicity is pretty shocking for poor white kids.

    What do put bradford's poor education results down too ? I just find this up grade in results down to a certain race pretty distasteful.
    If you look at the bar charts in the paper, Pakistani boys on free school meals also perform poorly. Obviously these are ovetall performances with plenty of scope for individual variation.

    What are the reasons? a multitude I suspect, but I think genetic diferences are exagerrated. All groups regress to the mean over time. Mostly I suspect poor upbringing and lack of motivation. There is also a real anti-intellectual streak in British culture. Even a former Education Minister said he had "no need of experts".

    The Mosque plays less influence on Bangladeshis than say Pakistanis who are both Muslim. Bangladesh itself is now showing how to progress on social indicators compared to other third world countries.

    Who would have believed that the birth rate in Bangladesh will drop to 2.11 which is what it is today. By 2030, the population will actually fall.

    One of Hans Rosling's great videos.

    https://www.gapminder.org/videos/gapmindervideos/gapcast-5-bangladesh-miracle/
    The Bangladesh population will have to start falling at some point, for very basic reasons namely lack of physical space and, er, food!

    Looking at the long-term population projections, some countries are going to be hell by the end of the century - take a look for example at Nigeria's forecast population and tell me that's going to work out well..
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,989
    surbiton said:

    RobD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    RIP Kaufman.

    Gorton by-election though.

    RIP

    Extremely safe seat though. Who's the new Father of the House?
    When there was an earthquake in Assam, the FT led with the headline: "Earthquake in Assam. Tea shares drop."

    When an MP dies, RIP is followed by "what's his majority ?"
    This is a political betting site, after all.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,138
    edited February 2017
    Scott_P said:

    HYUFD said:

    RIP Sir Gerald after a long political career however the by election should be a comfortable Labour hold with 67% voting Labour at the last general election which should give Corbyn a minor boost after Copeland

    Should be a comfortable hold, but the campaign could be "if you want to get rid of Corbyn"...
    The Greens came second in 2015 in the seat, if anything Manchester Gorton is ideally placed for Corbyn as if he can squeeze the Green vote he could even see a rare pro Labour swing which would settle the nerves amongst Labour supporters after last week's by elections
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited February 2017
    surbiton said:

    Cyan said:

    Their performance stats are substantially better. Take this piece of work:

    http://www2.le.ac.uk/offices/press/think-leicester/education/2016/against-the-odds-ethnic-minority-students-are-excelling-at-school

    The figures from the second bar chart on free schhol meals children by ethnicity is pretty shocking for poor white kids.

    This seems like good research, but the results for Asian pupils are not really "against the odds". Parental support is by far the most important factor in children's educational performance. As for "social mobility", many Chinese immigrants since 1997 have been well-heeled.

    Look at the figures for Chinese on free school meals. They beat the national average.

    I think the most significant reason that WWC and Black Carribean boys do so badly is due to lots of broken homes with an absence of positive role models.

    Sadly, that is correct. Family pressure / discipline does work. The same success was seen in Jewish kids 50 years ago.
    Poor kids at religious schools do better. It instills discipline and values, as well as positive male role models.

    I am not an evangelical, but Calvinist teachings in Scotland laid tbe foundation of the Scottish enlightenment, and Methodism did much the same for the English working class in the 19th century.
  • Options
    Pulpstar said:

    RIP Kaufman.

    Gorton by-election though.

    Expect a strong LD challenge, that's the student area of Manchester.
  • Options
    oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831
    AndyJS said:

    Hopefully the truth about Kaufman might start to emerge now.

    What do you mean by that?
    The rumours have been circulating for years - it doesn't take much finding.
  • Options

    nielh said:

    I don't understand these comments that suggest criticism of the English is somehow racist.
    I'm still waiting to get a full answer from SeanT about what special racial characteristics he thinks the English have.
    On the broader question - notwithstanding the leave vote - many people in England simply don't identify postively with an English identity due to its negative connotations (racism, white supremacy, football violence) they would rather identify with a British identity or - in a minority of cases - a European identity. This is probably why it is not used in political literature particularly for the mainstream parties.
    I suppose that the ultimate truth is just that we don't really know what our 'English' identity is.
    Its hard to think of any other country or region of Europe with a similar predicament.

    I seem to recall that the place in England where people most strongly identify as "English" rather than "British" is Canvey Island. The elixir of Englishness can apparently be found on the Essex marshes.

    In fact Essex as a whole identifies unusually strongly as "English" - I suspect this is part of the reason why Carswell is the only UKIP MP, why Havering (which morally still seems to self-identify as part of Essex, whatever the map shows - denizens of Romford or Hornchurch or Upminster still call themselves "Essex" in a way that folk in Ilford or Barking or Leyton have almost entirely ceased to) was the most leave-leaning corner of London.

    I think there really is such a thing as an Essex state of mind - isam on here captures it very clearly (not just in his own opinions, but when he expresses the views of family, friends and people he knows).
    Have you ever watched Jonathan Meades' film on Essex?

    Might interest you... :)

    http://meadesshrine.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/essex.html
    Cheers. Jonathan Meades' films generally grate on me. Ditto Adam Curtis. Both very talented film-makers but an overload of hypothesis-as-narrative, while my deep-seated internal reaction to seeing a hypothesis framed is "so show me the data". But that isn't really the point of their films, so I guess I'm not the target audience.

    Nice intro though. The Salvation Army "Hadleigh Farm" is still there, though as I understand it it focuses more on people with learning disabilities than trying to reform drunken reprobates through physical labour. There's a nice cafe with a view over the castle and estuary, worth a visit if you ever pass through South Essex. North Essex is rather more picturesque though!
  • Options

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:

    @ZoraSuleman: Sir Gerald Kaufman, Labour MP for Manchester Gorton and Father of The House of Commons, has died aged 86

    RIP Sir Gerald after a long political career however the by election should be a comfortable Labour hold with 67% voting Labour at the last general election which should give Corbyn a minor boost after Copeland
    Interesting to see the Greens were in second, and UKIP 4th. Unusual for an urbanseat. Lots of Students? If so then perhaps LD's can challenge (though obviously a massive majority, and byelections caused by mortalitytend to garner a sympathy vote)
    LDs had 33% in 2010.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,131

    AndyJS said:

    Hopefully the truth about Kaufman might start to emerge now.

    What do you mean by that?
    The rumours have been circulating for years - it doesn't take much finding.
    Are you Tom Watson?

  • Options

    RobD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    RIP Kaufman.

    Gorton by-election though.

    RIP

    Extremely safe seat though. Who's the new Father of the House?
    Ken Clarke!
    Wikipedia already updated :lol:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Father_of_the_House?wprov=sfla1
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,989

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:

    @ZoraSuleman: Sir Gerald Kaufman, Labour MP for Manchester Gorton and Father of The House of Commons, has died aged 86

    RIP Sir Gerald after a long political career however the by election should be a comfortable Labour hold with 67% voting Labour at the last general election which should give Corbyn a minor boost after Copeland
    Interesting to see the Greens were in second, and UKIP 4th. Unusual for an urbanseat. Lots of Students? If so then perhaps LD's can challenge (though obviously a massive majority, and byelections caused by mortalitytend to garner a sympathy vote)
    LDs had 33% in 2010.
    Down to 4.2% in 2015... titters.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:

    @ZoraSuleman: Sir Gerald Kaufman, Labour MP for Manchester Gorton and Father of The House of Commons, has died aged 86

    RIP Sir Gerald after a long political career however the by election should be a comfortable Labour hold with 67% voting Labour at the last general election which should give Corbyn a minor boost after Copeland
    Interesting to see the Greens were in second, and UKIP 4th. Unusual for an urbanseat. Lots of Students? If so then perhaps LD's can challenge (though obviously a massive majority, and byelections caused by mortalitytend to garner a sympathy vote)
    LDs had 33% in 2010.
    Still quite a hill to climb, and students are less put off by Corbynism than most.
  • Options
    oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831

    AndyJS said:

    Hopefully the truth about Kaufman might start to emerge now.

    What do you mean by that?
    The rumours have been circulating for years - it doesn't take much finding.
    Are you Tom Watson?

    Similar build, very different politics...!
  • Options
    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    nielh said:

    I don't understand these comments that suggest criticism of the English is somehow racist.
    I'm still waiting to get a full answer from SeanT about what special racial characteristics he thinks the English have.
    On the broader question - notwithstanding the leave vote - many people in England simply don't identify postively with an English identity due to its negative connotations (racism, white supremacy, football violence) they would rather identify with a British identity or - in a minority of cases - a European identity. This is probably why it is not used in political literature particularly for the mainstream parties.
    I suppose that the ultimate truth is just that we don't really know what our 'English' identity is.
    Its hard to think of any other country or region of Europe with a similar predicament.

    I seem to recall that the place in England where people most strongly identify as "English" rather than "British" is Canvey Island. The elixir of Englishness can apparently be found on the Essex marshes.

    In fact Essex as a whole identifies unusually strongly as "English" - I suspect this is part of the reason why Carswell is the only UKIP MP, why Havering (which morally still seems to self-identify as part of Essex, whatever the map shows - denizens of Romford or Hornchurch or Upminster still call themselves "Essex" in a way that folk in Ilford or Barking or Leyton have almost entirely ceased to) was the most leave-leaning corner of London.

    I think there really is such a thing as an Essex state of mind - isam on here captures it very clearly (not just in his own opinions, but when he expresses the views of family, friends and people he knows).
    Have you ever watched Jonathan Meades' film on Essex?

    Might interest you... :)

    http://meadesshrine.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/essex.html
    Cheers. Jonathan Meades' films generally grate on me. Ditto Adam Curtis. Both very talented film-makers but an overload of hypothesis-as-narrative, while my deep-seated internal reaction to seeing a hypothesis framed is "so show me the data". But that isn't really the point of their films, so I guess I'm not the target audience.

    Nice intro though. The Salvation Army "Hadleigh Farm" is still there, though as I understand it it focuses more on people with learning disabilities than trying to reform drunken reprobates through physical labour. There's a nice cafe with a view over the castle and estuary, worth a visit if you ever pass through South Essex. North Essex is rather more picturesque though!
    North Essex is very picturesque

  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,999
    edited February 2017

    RobD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    RIP Kaufman.

    Gorton by-election though.

    RIP

    Extremely safe seat though. Who's the new Father of the House?
    Ken Clarke!
    ..and I think Skinner (ie the Beast) may be next (as Clarke is due to retire at the next GE)..?
    He has indeed said 50 years will be enough and he'll stand down in 2020. Still holding out hope he'll stand as a liberal, just for the laughs. He'd only be 80!
  • Options

    Pulpstar said:

    RIP Kaufman.

    Gorton by-election though.

    Expect a strong LD challenge, that's the student area of Manchester.
    LDs were putting up a strongish challenge in Gorton until 2015, when they took a nationwide kicking. Will be interesting to see if any of these huge swings in council by-elections can be replicated.

    Lot of social change in some wards over the last 20 years - Longsight and Levenshulme have gentrified slightly, with families priced out of the more traditional MC South Manchester haunts like Chorlton/Didsbury.

    Fallowfield rammed full of students obviously. LDs need to put their back into this if they want to mount a serious comeback.
  • Options

    nielh said:


    Its hard to think of any other country or region of Europe with a similar predicament.

    I seem to recall that the place in England where people most strongly identify as "English" rather than "British" is Canvey Island. The elixir of Englishness can apparently be found on the Essex marshes.

    In fact Essex as a whole identifies unusually strongly as "English" - I suspect this is part of the reason why Carswell is the only UKIP MP, why Havering (which morally still seems to self-identify as part of Essex, whatever the map shows - denizens of Romford or Hornchurch or Upminster still call themselves "Essex" in a way that folk in Ilford or Barking or Leyton have almost entirely ceased to) was the most leave-leaning corner of London.

    I think there really is such a thing as an Essex state of mind - isam on here captures it very clearly (not just in his own opinions, but when he expresses the views of family, friends and people he knows).
    Have you ever watched Jonathan Meades' film on Essex?

    Might interest you... :)

    http://meadesshrine.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/essex.html
    Cheers. Jonathan Meades' films generally grate on me. Ditto Adam Curtis. Both very talented film-makers but an overload of hypothesis-as-narrative, while my deep-seated internal reaction to seeing a hypothesis framed is "so show me the data". But that isn't really the point of their films, so I guess I'm not the target audience.

    Nice intro though. The Salvation Army "Hadleigh Farm" is still there, though as I understand it it focuses more on people with learning disabilities than trying to reform drunken reprobates through physical labour. There's a nice cafe with a view over the castle and estuary, worth a visit if you ever pass through South Essex. North Essex is rather more picturesque though!
    Meades' films are essentially his subjective view of the world, but done in a way that presents his observations and lets you take your own view. They're certainly not the usual documentaries - but then I don't think they're meant to be documentaries as such. I enjoy watching about 4/5ths of his work - some videos I just can't get into though!
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,989
    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    RIP Kaufman.

    Gorton by-election though.

    RIP

    Extremely safe seat though. Who's the new Father of the House?
    Ken Clarke!
    ..and I think Skinner (ie the Beast) may be next (as Clarke is due to retire at the next GE)..?
    He has indeed said 50 years will be enough and he'll stand down in 2020. Still holding out hope he'll stand as a liberal, just for the laughs.
    He could sit as a Liberal in the Lords!
  • Options
    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341

    Look at the figures for Chinese on free school meals. They beat the national average.

    I think the most significant reason that WWC and Black Carribean boys do so badly is due to lots of broken homes with an absence of positive role models.

    Do you have any idea why they list white children separately as boys and girls - yet fail to mention Bangladeshi or Indian boys? A strange omission.

    Free school meals are, of course, linked to prevalence of benefit entitlement.

    The more that one group is on benefits, the closer you would expect their free school meals score to match their overall average. Any group that has closely matched scores, is likely to have a high prevalence of benefit receipt.

    Equally, these results imply that the numbers of white children on free school meals are proportionately small to the overall white grouping and that a minority in this group is a significant 'drag' on the overall score.

  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,131

    Pulpstar said:

    RIP Kaufman.

    Gorton by-election though.

    Expect a strong LD challenge, that's the student area of Manchester.
    LDs were putting up a strongish challenge in Gorton until 2015, when they took a nationwide kicking. Will be interesting to see if any of these huge swings in council by-elections can be replicated.

    Lot of social change in some wards over the last 20 years - Longsight and Levenshulme have gentrified slightly, with families priced out of the more traditional MC South Manchester haunts like Chorlton/Didsbury.

    Fallowfield rammed full of students obviously. LDs need to put their back into this if they want to mount a serious comeback.
    Was the Tory candidate in 2015 related to the Lib Dem candidate in 2010?
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,999
    Scott_P said:
    Sentimental value? Oh for goodness sake, what place has sentiment for a building in all this?

  • Options

    RobD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    RIP Kaufman.

    Gorton by-election though.

    RIP

    Extremely safe seat though. Who's the new Father of the House?
    Ken Clarke!
    Wikipedia already updated :lol:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Father_of_the_House?wprov=sfla1
    Wikipedia probably updated before Clarke knew himself.
  • Options
    TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:

    @ZoraSuleman: Sir Gerald Kaufman, Labour MP for Manchester Gorton and Father of The House of Commons, has died aged 86

    RIP Sir Gerald after a long political career however the by election should be a comfortable Labour hold with 67% voting Labour at the last general election which should give Corbyn a minor boost after Copeland
    Interesting to see the Greens were in second, and UKIP 4th. Unusual for an urbanseat. Lots of Students? If so then perhaps LD's can challenge (though obviously a massive majority, and byelections caused by mortalitytend to garner a sympathy vote)
    LDs had 33% in 2010.
    Still quite a hill to climb, and students are less put off by Corbynism than most.
    Was manchester Gorton a leave or remain area,if remain,I'm sure the lib dems would use that against corbyns backing leave in parliament.

    RIP Mr Kaufman.
  • Options
    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    edited February 2017
    Cyan said:

    Their performance stats are substantially better. Take this piece of work:

    http://www2.le.ac.uk/offices/press/think-leicester/education/2016/against-the-odds-ethnic-minority-students-are-excelling-at-school

    The figures from the second bar chart on free schhol meals children by ethnicity is pretty shocking for poor white kids.

    This seems like good research, but the results for Asian pupils are not really "against the odds" as Saeeda Shah or a headline writer at Leicester University's press office describes them. Parental support is by far the most important factor in children's educational performance. As for "social mobility", many Chinese immigrants since 1997 have been well-heeled.

    My wife works with a lady from Mauritius.

    Both her and her husband are very firm on their lad to study hard.

    Every day after school they make him do 2 hours extra work, even if no homework set.

    They are driven to see him do well - and it's not just them I see that in a number of Asian families.

    On the other hand I see some white parents who just see education as not important for their kids and certainly take no interest
  • Options

    AndyJS said:

    Hopefully the truth about Kaufman might start to emerge now.

    What do you mean by that?
    The rumours have been circulating for years - it doesn't take much finding.
    Are you Tom Watson?

    Ah yes, the Nonce Finder General.
  • Options
    nunununu Posts: 6,024

    Pulpstar said:

    RIP Kaufman.

    Gorton by-election though.

    Expect a strong LD challenge, that's the student area of Manchester.
    Students have moved enmasse to Corbyn.


    The only group who have.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,991
    Floater said:

    nielh said:

    I don't understand these comments that suggest criticism of the English is somehow racist.
    I'm still waiting to get a full answer from SeanT about what special racial characteristics he thinks the English have.
    On the broader question - notwithstanding the leave vote - many people in England simply don't identify postively with an English identity due to its negative connotations (racism, white supremacy, football violence) they would rather identify with a British identity or - in a minority of cases - a European identity. This is probably why it is not used in political literature particularly for the mainstream parties.
    I suppose that the ultimate truth is just that we don't really know what our 'English' identity is.
    Its hard to think of any other country or region of Europe with a similar predicament.

    I seem to recall that the place in England where people most strongly identify as "English" rather than "British" is Canvey Island. The elixir of Englishness can apparently be found on the Essex marshes.

    In fact Essex as a whole identifies unusually strongly as "English" - I suspect this is part of the reason why Carswell is the only UKIP MP, why Havering (which morally still seems to self-identify as part of Essex, whatever the map shows - denizens of Romford or Hornchurch or Upminster still call themselves "Essex" in a way that folk in Ilford or Barking or Leyton have almost entirely ceased to) was the most leave-leaning corner of London.

    I think there really is such a thing as an Essex state of mind - isam on here captures it very clearly (not just in his own opinions, but when he expresses the views of family, friends and people he knows).
    Have you ever watched Jonathan Meades' film on Essex?

    Might interest you... :)

    http://meadesshrine.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/essex.html
    Cheers. Jonathan Meades' films generally grate on me. Ditto Adam Curtis. Both very talented film-makers but an overload of hypothesis-as-narrative, while my deep-seated internal reaction to seeing a hypothesis framed is "so show me the data". But that isn't really the point of their films, so I guess I'm not the target audience.

    Nice intro though. The Salvation Army "Hadleigh Farm" is still there, though as I understand it it focuses more on people with learning disabilities than trying to reform drunken reprobates through physical labour. There's a nice cafe with a view over the castle and estuary, worth a visit if you ever pass through South Essex. North Essex is rather more picturesque though!
    North Essex is very picturesque

    The Hay Wain location is still as was.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    nielh said:


    Its hard to think of any other country or region of Europe with a similar predicament.

    I seem to recall that the place in England where people most strongly identify as "English" rather than "British" is Canvey Island. The elixir of Englishness can apparently be found on the Essex marshes.

    In fact Essex as a whole identifies unusually strongly as "English" - I suspect this is part of the reason why Carswell is the only UKIP MP, why Havering (which morally still seems to self-identify as part of Essex, whatever the map shows - denizens of Romford or Hornchurch or Upminster still call themselves "Essex" in a way that folk in Ilford or Barking or Leyton have almost entirely ceased to) was the most leave-leaning corner of London.

    I think there really is such a thing as an Essex state of mind - isam on here captures it very clearly (not just in his own opinions, but when he expresses the views of family, friends and people he knows).
    Have you ever watched Jonathan Meades' film on Essex?

    Might interest you... :)

    http://meadesshrine.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/essex.html
    Cheers. Jonathan Meades' films generally grate on me. Ditto Adam Curtis. Both very talented film-makers but an overload of hypothesis-as-narrative, while my deep-seated internal reaction to seeing a hypothesis framed is "so show me the data". But that isn't really the point of their films, so I guess I'm not the target audience.

    Nice intro though. The Salvation Army "Hadleigh Farm" is still there, though as I understand it it focuses more on people with learning disabilities than trying to reform drunken reprobates through physical labour. There's a nice cafe with a view over the castle and estuary, worth a visit if you ever pass through South Essex. North Essex is rather more picturesque though!
    Meades' films are essentially his subjective view of the world, but done in a way that presents his observations and lets you take your own view. They're certainly not the usual documentaries - but then I don't think they're meant to be documentaries as such. I enjoy watching about 4/5ths of his work - some videos I just can't get into though!
    One of my favourite Meades films is Remember The Future (first shown in 1997).

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYnGza8W-5w
  • Options
    CyanCyan Posts: 1,262

    Cyan said:

    Their performance stats are substantially better. Take this piece of work:

    http://www2.le.ac.uk/offices/press/think-leicester/education/2016/against-the-odds-ethnic-minority-students-are-excelling-at-school

    The figures from the second bar chart on free schhol meals children by ethnicity is pretty shocking for poor white kids.

    This seems like good research, but the results for Asian pupils are not really "against the odds". Parental support is by far the most important factor in children's educational performance. As for "social mobility", many Chinese immigrants since 1997 have been well-heeled.

    Look at the figures for Chinese on free school meals. They beat the national average.
    Yes OK, that's a fair point. Whilst many immigrants from Hong Kong have been well-heeled, I've met several Chinese students at Cambridge who are highly capable and very ambitious and whose parents are not especially well-off but who have made huge sacrifices, e.g. spending practically all of their savings to get their offspring through university.

    The last three Senior Wranglers (not that I know anything about them in particular) have been Chinese.

  • Options
    oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831

    AndyJS said:

    Hopefully the truth about Kaufman might start to emerge now.

    What do you mean by that?
    The rumours have been circulating for years - it doesn't take much finding.
    Are you Tom Watson?

    Ah yes, the Nonce Finder General.
    Watson doesn't tend to pay much notice to what is/has been going on in his own party.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Ed Balls
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    chestnut said:

    Look at the figures for Chinese on free school meals. They beat the national average.

    I think the most significant reason that WWC and Black Carribean boys do so badly is due to lots of broken homes with an absence of positive role models.

    Do you have any idea why they list white children separately as boys and girls - yet fail to mention Bangladeshi or Indian boys? A strange omission.

    Free school meals are, of course, linked to prevalence of benefit entitlement.

    The more that one group is on benefits, the closer you would expect their free school meals score to match their overall average. Any group that has closely matched scores, is likely to have a high prevalence of benefit receipt.

    Equally, these results imply that the numbers of white children on free school meals are proportionately small to the overall white grouping and that a minority in this group is a significant 'drag' on the overall score.

    No idea, why the data was in the press release that way, probably more in the full paper.

    Goodnight, and nighthawks can enjoy the Oscars. My tips:

    Best Documentary: "13th"
    Best Doc Short:" White Helmet"

    I watched both on Netflix on a football free weekend for me. Both are excellent antidotes to the alt.right nonsense that gets spammed here.

    White Helmet shows the courage and compassion of the Syrian civil defence volunteers in Aleppo, 13th is about Incarcerstion in America, and its racial dimensions*.

    Both are excellent and well filmed works and will match the Hollywood mood. White Helmet is joint favourite, but 13th is a longer shot.

    *One thing that I learned. 97% of US prisoners are imprisoned without a trial, because of plea bargaining. They never got a chance at a trial.

  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Scott_P said:

    Ed Balls

    Not a bad idea.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,989
    edited February 2017
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    surbiton said:

    Scott_P said:

    Ed Balls

    Not a bad idea.
    Might well get the student vote! he has name recognition.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,989



    *One thing that I learned. 97% of US prisoners are imprisoned without a trial, because of plea bargaining. They never got a chance at a trial.

    What was the other option than a plea bargain then?
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    nielhnielh Posts: 1,307
    surbiton said:

    Scott_P said:

    Ed Balls

    Not a bad idea.
    got to get selected by the clp though
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    PongPong Posts: 4,693

    AndyJS said:

    Hopefully the truth about Kaufman might start to emerge now.

    What do you mean by that?
    The rumours have been circulating for years - it doesn't take much finding.
    And what if the rumours you've read on google aren't true?

    Where does that leave you?

    I mean, morally.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,989
    nielh said:

    surbiton said:

    Scott_P said:

    Ed Balls

    Not a bad idea.
    got to get selected by the clp though
    It seems to be the tower hamlets of Manchester
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    isam said:

    nielh said:

    surbiton said:

    Scott_P said:

    Ed Balls

    Not a bad idea.
    got to get selected by the clp though
    It seems to be the tower hamlets of Manchester
    The CLP was suspended a while ago, for some of the things mentioned in that article. Could be shaping up to be a messy one.
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    oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831
    Pong said:

    AndyJS said:

    Hopefully the truth about Kaufman might start to emerge now.

    What do you mean by that?
    The rumours have been circulating for years - it doesn't take much finding.
    And what if the rumours you've read on google aren't true?

    Where does that leave you?

    I mean, morally.
    I haven't read them on google. I have been aware of them for a number of years.
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    Tories came close to winning Gorton in the 1967 by-election, upon the death of Konni Zilliacus. Their candidate was Winston Churchill (not that one - his grandson). Quite a lot of by-elections here really - 1937, William Wedgewood-Benn took it upon the death of Joseph Compton, then 1942 William Oldfield took the seat when Wedgewood-Benn was given a peerage.

    Only around the 10th-safest seat, despite the 67% Labour vote. You need to go to Liverpool Lalton - 81% Labour (and still managed to vote Leave!), to find that.

    TBH they might as well put up the Labour donkey unopposed, seems a bit of a waste of money fighting a by-election.
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    "There is a raging battle between Councillor Rabnawaz Akbar, Councillor Julie Reid and Councillor Luthfur Rahman to replace Sir Gerald,"

    Seems there's a whole string of dodgy Labour politicians called Luthfur Rahman http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/local-news/councillor-punched-and-kicked-man-in-mosque-890911
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    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    isam said:
    Sounds disgusting

    Luthfur Rahman

    That name rings a bell, but this bloke isn't the London one I think?

    Interesting enough in his own right

    http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/local-news/councillor-punched-and-kicked-man-in-mosque-890911

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    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    chestnut said:

    Look at the figures for Chinese on free school meals. They beat the national average.

    I think the most significant reason that WWC and Black Carribean boys do so badly is due to lots of broken homes with an absence of positive role models.

    Do you have any idea why they list white children separately as boys and girls - yet fail to mention Bangladeshi or Indian boys? A strange omission.

    Free school meals are, of course, linked to prevalence of benefit entitlement.

    The more that one group is on benefits, the closer you would expect their free school meals score to match their overall average. Any group that has closely matched scores, is likely to have a high prevalence of benefit receipt.

    Equally, these results imply that the numbers of white children on free school meals are proportionately small to the overall white grouping and that a minority in this group is a significant 'drag' on the overall score.

    No idea, why the data was in the press release that way, probably more in the full paper.

    Goodnight, and nighthawks can enjoy the Oscars. My tips:

    Best Documentary: "13th"
    Best Doc Short:" White Helmet"

    I watched both on Netflix on a football free weekend for me. Both are excellent antidotes to the alt.right nonsense that gets spammed here.

    White Helmet shows the courage and compassion of the Syrian civil defence volunteers in Aleppo, 13th is about Incarcerstion in America, and its racial dimensions*.

    Both are excellent and well filmed works and will match the Hollywood mood. White Helmet is joint favourite, but 13th is a longer shot.

    *One thing that I learned. 97% of US prisoners are imprisoned without a trial, because of plea bargaining. They never got a chance at a trial.

    Plea bargaining? isn't that where you take a lower sentence than could be expected if you went to trial?
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    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    Pulpstar said:

    Floater said:

    nielh said:

    I don't understand these comments that suggest criticism of the English is somehow racist.
    I'm still waiting to get a full answer from SeanT about what special racial characteristics he thinks the English have.
    On the broader question - notwithstanding the leave vote - many people in England simply don't identify postively with an English identity due to its negative connotations (racism, white supreilar predicament.



    In fact Essex as a whole identifies unusually strongly as "English" - I suspect this is part of the reason why Carswell is the only UKIP MP, why Havering (which morally still seems to self-identify as part of Essex, whatever the map shows - denizens of Romford or Hornchurch or Upminster still call themselves "Essex" in a way that folk in Ilford or Barking or Leyton have almost entirely ceased to) was the most leave-leaning corner of London.

    I think there really is such a thing as an Essex state of mind - isam on here captures it very clearly (not just in his own opinions, but when he expresses the views of family, friends and people he knows).
    Have you ever watched Jonathan Meades' film on Essex?

    Might interest you... :)

    http://meadesshrine.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/essex.html
    Cheers. Jonathan Meades' films generally grate on me. Ditto Adam Curtis. Both very talented film-makers but an overload of hypothesis-as-narrative, while my deep-seated internal reaction to seeing a hypothesis framed is "so show me the data". But that isn't really the point of their films, so I guess I'm not the target audience.

    Nice intro though. The Salvation Army "Hadleigh Farm" is still there, though as I understand it it focuses more on people with learning disabilities than trying to reform drunken reprobates through physical labour. There's a nice cafe with a view over the castle and estuary, worth a visit if you ever pass through South Essex. North Essex is rather more picturesque though!
    North Essex is very picturesque

    The Hay Wain location is still as was.
    I also go up to Dedham a fair bit.

    It's nice around there.

    I only found out in last year that my father was first evacuated to that area from Elephant and castle and then when his mum missed him to much she rented a house in Dedham.

    After the war they moved back!

    One of his few regrets.

    He took my mother there about 10 years ago and they were in the pub on the road down to the river when a guy came over.

    He recognized him from the 40's!!!!!!
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    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Manchester Gorton nearly fell to the Tories at the November 1967 by election - albeit on different boundaries. Winston Churchill was the defeated Tory candidate.
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    PaulyPauly Posts: 897
    justin124 said:

    Manchester Gorton nearly fell to the Tories at the November 1967 by election - albeit on different boundaries. Winston Churchill was the defeated Tory candidate.

    For the record, grandson of the former Prime Minister
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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    RobD said:



    *One thing that I learned. 97% of US prisoners are imprisoned without a trial, because of plea bargaining. They never got a chance at a trial.

    What was the other option than a plea bargain then?
    A plea bargain is nothing more than a tariff reduction for an early guilty plea. For the guilty it's broadly the same as it works in the UK but has the advantage of being available earlier in the process and is more flexible.

    Conspiracy theorists, though, read all sorts of motives and evils into the process - mostly built on a diet of dramatised Netflix cop series.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292
    edited February 2017
    GeoffM said:

    RobD said:



    *One thing that I learned. 97% of US prisoners are imprisoned without a trial, because of plea bargaining. They never got a chance at a trial.

    What was the other option than a plea bargain then?
    A plea bargain is nothing more than a tariff reduction for an early guilty plea. For the guilty it's broadly the same as it works in the UK but has the advantage of being available earlier in the process and is more flexible.

    Conspiracy theorists, though, read all sorts of motives and evils into the process - mostly built on a diet of dramatised Netflix cop series.
    The economist did a piece on this a few years ago and claimed that it heavily motivates the police / prosecution to throw every charge under the sun at a suspect* as a way to encourage a plea backed up with the threat that a suspect will be spending months, if not years, awaiting trial in massively overcrowded jails.

    * With the knowledge that most won't stick.
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    Give me strength...

    Oscars: Meryl Streep vents fury at Karl Lagerfeld in dress row
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-39097189
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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    GeoffM said:

    RobD said:



    *One thing that I learned. 97% of US prisoners are imprisoned without a trial, because of plea bargaining. They never got a chance at a trial.

    What was the other option than a plea bargain then?
    A plea bargain is nothing more than a tariff reduction for an early guilty plea. For the guilty it's broadly the same as it works in the UK but has the advantage of being available earlier in the process and is more flexible.

    Conspiracy theorists, though, read all sorts of motives and evils into the process - mostly built on a diet of dramatised Netflix cop series.
    The economist did a piece on this a few years ago and claimed that it heavily motivates the police / prosecution to throw every charge under the sun at a suspect* as a way to encourage a plea backed up with the threat that a suspect will be spending months, if not years, awaiting trial in massively overcrowded jails.

    * With the knowledge that most won't stick.
    You lost me at "The Economist did a piece...". I wouldn't use that thing for bog-roll, personally. But to be fair it didn't matter which publication you cited.

    Unfortunately this topic is catnip for any political point that anyone wants to make, with the bonus of malleable statistics that can be hammered into any shape to provide supporting 'evidence'.

    Pick a side, pick an opinion, pick a bias. Whatever it is you'll be able to find the numbers or analysis to support it on whether plea bargaining is overall a good or a bad thing
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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    Give me strength...

    Oscars: Meryl Streep vents fury at Karl Lagerfeld in dress row
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-39097189

    I've just seen an Oscars photo of some pretty blonde thing with a low cut top and "LET THEM IN" written straight across her norks.

    YES YES YES would be my answer every day of the week. I'd ride that like the proverbial stolen moped.

    Is this some new dating craze? The obvious come-on slutty technique? I'm sure girls never did this when I was young. Or did I just go to the wrong parties?
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    Pong said:

    AndyJS said:

    Hopefully the truth about Kaufman might start to emerge now.

    What do you mean by that?
    The rumours have been circulating for years - it doesn't take much finding.
    And what if the rumours you've read on google aren't true?

    Where does that leave you?

    I mean, morally.
    I haven't read them on google. I have been aware of them for a number of years.
    To be fair that was my initial reaction too - 'now he's beyond the protection of the libel laws...'
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    My father (The late Comedian, Malcolm Hardee) stood in that by-election. Said it was one of the biggest shocks.
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    fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,279
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Somebody is a little upset. Corbyn is many things, but UKIP arse licker...really...I mean terrorist sympathiser ok, but UKIP arse licker, I mean that is over the line.
    Will need a few more by-elections and the locals to confirm, but Labour could be in danger of losing their remain flank en masse.

    Richmond Park , Sleaford & North Hykeham, Stoke Central, Copeland

    were all very different seats but they all have an absolutely awful Labour performance in common.

    Witney was OK on the surface - but should the main opposition really be losing vote share in a seat where the former PM was standing down ?! No 3rd party insurgency there either.

    Labour's performances in by-elections have looked markedly worse to me after the referendum. Not just Copeland.
    Now this is what a byelection normally looks like:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tooting_by-election,_2016
    Yep - the Cameron vs Corbyn by-elections Corbyn wasn't doing too badly in but vs May Labour has been doing dreadfully in. The remain flank of Labour might be evaporating.
    Leigh might provide another useful data point. In normal times Labour will be getting 60%+ in that upcoming BE.
    Agreed. But those Cameron vs Corbyn by-elections were also held in a pre EU Ref/Brexit result era, where as those Corbyn vs May by-elections results prove that the Labour party's election woes are now increasingly wider than just a problem with Corbyn's Leadership.
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    fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,279
    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    Sentimental value? Oh for goodness sake, what place has sentiment for a building in all this?

    Considering the fact that the issue of our membership of EU has been a constant thorn in the side of the Conservative party for decades, you really don't find it ironic who ended up residing in the formerly iconic CCHQ during the dark years of Opposition?
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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    fitalass said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    Sentimental value? Oh for goodness sake, what place has sentiment for a building in all this?

    Considering the fact that the issue of our membership of EU has been a constant thorn in the side of the Conservative party for decades, you really don't find it ironic who ended up residing in the formerly iconic CCHQ during the dark years of Opposition?
    At the time it was announced who the new occupants were I thought it was a deliberate show of power and a conscious and deliberate insult. Time has not wearied that view. There were a hundred hundred other suitable buildings available at the time.

    Taking back control comes in may forms. Occasionally, like this one, they are indeed symbolic and sentimental, but they are not the less for it. I visited CCHQ as was. It will be a pleasure to see it reclaimed from the dark side.
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    GeoffM said:

    fitalass said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    Sentimental value? Oh for goodness sake, what place has sentiment for a building in all this?

    Considering the fact that the issue of our membership of EU has been a constant thorn in the side of the Conservative party for decades, you really don't find it ironic who ended up residing in the formerly iconic CCHQ during the dark years of Opposition?
    At the time it was announced who the new occupants were I thought it was a deliberate show of power and a conscious and deliberate insult. Time has not wearied that view. There were a hundred hundred other suitable buildings available at the time.
    snowflake
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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    GeoffM said:

    fitalass said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    Sentimental value? Oh for goodness sake, what place has sentiment for a building in all this?

    Considering the fact that the issue of our membership of EU has been a constant thorn in the side of the Conservative party for decades, you really don't find it ironic who ended up residing in the formerly iconic CCHQ during the dark years of Opposition?
    At the time it was announced who the new occupants were I thought it was a deliberate show of power and a conscious and deliberate insult. Time has not wearied that view. There were a hundred hundred other suitable buildings available at the time.
    snowflake
    tosser
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,989
    GeoffM said:

    fitalass said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    Sentimental value? Oh for goodness sake, what place has sentiment for a building in all this?

    Considering the fact that the issue of our membership of EU has been a constant thorn in the side of the Conservative party for decades, you really don't find it ironic who ended up residing in the formerly iconic CCHQ during the dark years of Opposition?
    At the time it was announced who the new occupants were I thought it was a deliberate show of power and a conscious and deliberate insult. Time has not wearied that view. There were a hundred hundred other suitable buildings available at the time.

    Taking back control comes in may forms. Occasionally, like this one, they are indeed symbolic and sentimental, but they are not the less for it. I visited CCHQ as was. It will be a pleasure to see it reclaimed from the dark side.
    IIRC they had trouble finding a building that would let them display the EU flag outside!
This discussion has been closed.