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Ishmael_Z said:

1

+1

Fourth rate like Paul Nuttall.

Sixth like Blair in his chosen seat in 2020.

AlastairMeeks said:

I see that pb's Leavers are having a night off from arguing that the decision whether to leave the EU shouldn't be influenced by the people making the argument.

Though it seems the PB Remainers are not having a night off from making sweeping comments.

I'm very relaxed about Blair's interventions.

Casino_Royale said:

I'm very relaxed about Blair's interventions.

I'm delighted about them. I only wish BSE had given him more airtime before June the 23rd.

Now that Tony is back on the scene perhaps some enterprising journalist could ask him how his CAP reforms have gone

Casino_Royale said:

I'm very relaxed about Blair's interventions.

You should remember one lesson of Trump's success: hugely unpopular or divisive people can still win elections. Plenty of ordinary voters will have reactions to Blair that you wouldn't expect.

Alanbrooke said:

Now that Tony is back on the scene perhaps some enterprising journalist could ask him how his CAP reforms have gone

I think there's an R missing from that.

TheScreamingEagles said:

The most interesting aspect of Blair's intervention today was his full frontal attack on Corbyn.

Seems like he agrees with John McDonnell that Corbyn is crap and on his way out.

He was hardly restrained about attacking Corbyn back in 2014 though. Which is not to say Corbyn isn't on the way out, of course.

Casino_Royale said:

I'm very relaxed about Blair's interventions.

You are right to be. He did not say anything at remarkable, merely that those who believe in the Remain case should continue to fight their corner because if what they believe is right it is likely that voters will change their minds about leaving the EU and, if that is the case, a second referendum should be on the table. It's hardly earth-shattering stuff. And, of course, because it was Blair making the argument it is unlikely to gain much traction in and of itself. I really don't get the hysterical reaction from some.

TheScreamingEagles said:

Alanbrooke said:

Now that Tony is back on the scene perhaps some enterprising journalist could ask him how his CAP reforms have gone

I think there's an R missing from that.

the shame

hustled by that old fraud Chirac

Casino_Royale said:

I'm very relaxed about Blair's interventions.

One of the lesser heard lines in Baghdad!

isam said:

The instigator of the Iraq war being used to troll Leavers... "my enemy's enemy" never felt more applicable

RIP Collateral Damage Iraqi's

I have watched IDS today deride Tony Blair and seen comments like yours.

I think the Iraq war was one of the big mistakes in post second world war Britain. HOWEVER, IDS LETS REMEMBER UNDER PRIVY COUNCIL ACCESS CONDITIONS ENDOURSED THE IRAQ WAR. He saw the same information/ intelligence that Blair did and advocated publically and voted in the House of Commons accordingly.

IDS was ousted some time later becoming the first Tory leader ever to not have fought a General Election. For some reason Tony Blair should be ignored whilst people like IDS should be listened too. Both are as bad as each other but Tony Blair can never be described as an extremist whereas IDS has always been clearly right wing.

Another interesting thing is the Tories are proposing a Brexit which is a complete break with government policy since the 1970s. Why is this anymore extreme than the alternative economic policy the Labour party currently advocates? One could argue if Tory Brexit is a virtue of being optimistic about the UKs future then why not optimism in Labour's policy?

I think the Tories are skating on thin ice and people will eventually wake up to the kamikaze ideas that have taken hold in the government. It could well be the case Brexit opens up the way to a very left wing government and everything the Tories oppose.

Casino_Royale said:

Alanbrooke said:

Casino_Royale said:

I'm very relaxed about Blair's interventions.

Id forgotten quite what a twat he is

#neverforget.

My favourite Take That track.

The_Taxman said:

isam said:

The instigator of the Iraq war being used to troll Leavers... "my enemy's enemy" never felt more applicable

RIP Collateral Damage Iraqi's

I have watched IDS today deride Tony Blair and seen comments like yours.

I think the Iraq war was one of the big mistakes in post second world war Britain. HOWEVER, IDS LETS REMEMBER UNDER PRIVY COUNCIL ACCESS CONDITIONS ENDOURSED THE IRAQ WAR. He saw the same information/ intelligence that Blair did and advocated publically and voted in the House of Commons accordingly.

IDS was ousted some time later becoming the first Tory leader ever to not have fought a General Election. For some reason Tony Blair should be ignored whilst people like IDS should be listened too. Both are as bad as each other but Tony Blair can never be described as an extremist whereas IDS has always been clearly right wing.

Another interesting thing is the Tories are proposing a Brexit which is a complete break with government policy since the 1970s. Why is this anymore extreme than the alternative economic policy the Labour party currently advocates? One could argue if Tory Brexit is a virtue of being optimistic about the UKs future then why not optimism in Labour's policy?

I think the Tories are skating on thin ice and people will eventually wake up to the kamikaze ideas that have taken hold in the government. it could well be the case Brexit opens up the way to a very left wing government and everything the Tories oppose.

What do I care what IDS or anyone else says? I was against it all along and didn't know which politician was for or against it at the time

The_Taxman said:

isam said:

The instigator of the Iraq war being used to troll Leavers... "my enemy's enemy" never felt more applicable

RIP Collateral Damage Iraqi's

I have watched IDS today deride Tony Blair and seen comments like yours.

I think the Iraq war was one of the big mistakes in post second world war Britain. HOWEVER, IDS LETS REMEMBER UNDER PRIVY COUNCIL ACCESS CONDITIONS ENDOURSED THE IRAQ WAR. He saw the same information/ intelligence that Blair did and advocated publically and voted in the House of Commons accordingly.

IDS was ousted some time later becoming the first Tory leader ever to not have fought a General Election. For some reason Tony Blair should be ignored whilst people like IDS should be listened too. Both are as bad as each other but Tony Blair can never be described as an extremist whereas IDS has always been clearly right wing.

Another interesting thing is the Tories are proposing a Brexit which is a complete break with government policy since the 1970s. Why is this anymore extreme than the alternative economic policy the Labour party currently advocates? One could argue if Tory Brexit is a virtue of being optimistic about the UKs future then why not optimism in Labour's policy?

I think the Tories are skating on thin ice and people will eventually wake up to the kamikaze ideas that have taken hold in the government. it could well be the case Brexit opens up the way to a very left wing government and everything the Tories oppose.

'Why is this anymore extreme than the alternative economic policy the Labour party currently advocates?'

Because more people voted for Brexit than have ever voted for anything in this country.

If Blair founds a new party and joins forces with the Lib Dems they'd be down to 0 seats at the next election.

https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/832643579113639936

Casino_Royale said:

SouthamObserver said:

Casino_Royale said:

I'm very relaxed about Blair's interventions.

You are right to be. He did not say anything at remarkable, merely that those who believe in the Remain case should continue to fight their corner because if what they believe is right it is likely that voters will change their minds about leaving the EU and, if that is the case, a second referendum should be on the table. It's hardly earth-shattering stuff. And, of course, because it was Blair making the argument it is unlikely to gain much traction in and of itself. I really don't get the hysterical reaction from some.

One thing that hasn't been discussed is why he's doing this, and why he's doing it now after the Commons has already voted for A50 and weeks before it is enacted.

Personally, I think the timing is no accident. Blair knows full well how unpopular he is and how his interventions can hinder, rather than help.

Which leads me to think that this intervention is for his benefit, not ours: he wants to clear his conscience by getting his views on the record before the whole thing kicks off, without taking the risk of it being counterproductive.

He has nothing to lose now.

Did Tony Blair ever try to benefit anyone but himself?

Casino_Royale said:

SouthamObserver said:

Casino_Royale said:

I'm very relaxed about Blair's interventions.

You are right to be. He did not say anything at remarkable, merely that those who believe in the Remain case should continue to fight their corner because if what they believe is right it is likely that voters will change their minds about leaving the EU and, if that is the case, a second referendum should be on the table. It's hardly earth-shattering stuff. And, of course, because it was Blair making the argument it is unlikely to gain much traction in and of itself. I really don't get the hysterical reaction from some.

One thing that hasn't been discussed is why he's doing this, and why he's doing it now after the Commons has already voted for A50 and weeks before it is enacted.

Personally, I think the timing is no accident. Blair knows full well how unpopular he is and how his interventions can hinder, rather than help.

Which leads me to think that this intervention is for his benefit, not ours: he wants to clear his conscience by getting his views on the record before the whole thing kicks off, without taking the risk of it being counterproductive.

He has nothing to lose now.

I agree with this 100%.

This is all about the TB Vanity Project now - I suppose if people hate him for talking tripe about Brexit that might be more conscionable to him than hating him for taking us into an awful and unjustified war.

SouthamObserver said:

williamglenn said:

Casino_Royale said:

I'm very relaxed about Blair's interventions.

You should remember one lesson of Trump's success: hugely unpopular or divisive people can still win elections. Plenty of ordinary voters will have reactions to Blair that you wouldn't expect.

Blair is damaged goods. There is no getting around that. It means any message he delivers can be immediately discredited - as we see from reactions on both the left and right to today's speech. Very few critics have engaged with the arguments Blair made. Iraq is all they need to say.

from what we can see all the arguments Blair has made went tits up

Europe obviously, Constitutional reform was a disaster, his economic policy gave us the biggest bust in our lives, infrastructure decayed, education went backwards and then there was the Dome

He was fortunate in reaping the headlines and then walking off to create the next disaster while his colleagues picked up the pieces.

SouthamObserver said:

williamglenn said:

Casino_Royale said:

I'm very relaxed about Blair's interventions.

You should remember one lesson of Trump's success: hugely unpopular or divisive people can still win elections. Plenty of ordinary voters will have reactions to Blair that you wouldn't expect.

Blair is damaged goods. There is no getting around that. It means any message he delivers can be immediately discredited - as we see from reactions on both the left and right to today's speech. Very few critics have engaged with the arguments Blair made. Iraq is all they need to say.

Well said.

Jason said:

Mortimer said:

The_Taxman said:

isam said:

The instigator of the Iraq war being used to troll Leavers... "my enemy's enemy" never felt more applicable

RIP Collateral Damage Iraqi's

I have watched IDS today deride Tony Blair and seen comments like yours.

I think the Iraq war was one of the big mistakes in post second world war Britain. HOWEVER, IDS LETS REMEMBER UNDER PRIVY COUNCIL ACCESS CONDITIONS ENDOURSED THE IRAQ WAR. He saw the same information/ intelligence that Blair did and advocated publically and voted in the House of Commons accordingly.

IDS was ousted some time later becoming the first Tory leader ever to not have fought a General Election. For some reason Tony Blair should be ignored whilst people like IDS should be listened too. Both are as bad as each other but Tony Blair can never be described as an extremist whereas IDS has always been clearly right wing.

Another interesting thing is the Tories are proposing a Brexit which is a complete break with government policy since the 1970s. Why is this anymore extreme than the alternative economic policy the Labour party currently advocates? One could argue if Tory Brexit is a virtue of being optimistic about the UKs future then why not optimism in Labour's policy?

I think the Tories are skating on thin ice and people will eventually wake up to the kamikaze ideas that have taken hold in the government. it could well be the case Brexit opens up the way to a very left wing government and everything the Tories oppose.

'Why is this anymore extreme than the alternative economic policy the Labour party currently advocates?'

Because more people voted for Brexit than have ever voted for anything in this country.

That's true, but it's the kind of people that voted for Brexit that the liberal Left cannot stomach. I agree with what Paul Joseph Watson said about the Left and democracy. They cannot and will not accept it if it doesn't coincide with their ideology.

This is a silly argument made by people on both sides who have a catch-all definition of 'the Left' or 'the Right' which simply means 'people who disagree with me'.

@Roger (fpt): "He only did what the Tories were egging him on to do and what they would have done were they in office. People are very happy to say Theresa May has no choice but to do whatever Trump or the US administration demands to maintain our special relationship yet when Blair did just that he became a pariah"

There is some truth in what you say in your first two sentences and it is also the case that some of what Blair said today in his speech has merit, even if some people are unlikely to listen to him precisely because he has in their eyes so comprehensively trashed his brand.

But I think that he became a pariah not just because he got involved in Bush's intervention in Iraq but because of the way that he did so - the dishonesty in what he told Parliament and the country, the way that he suborned and bullied those agencies which should have been a break on his wishes e.g. the intelligence agencies and the Government's legal advisor and because he broke the trust which we are entitled to have in a PM when he or she tells us that war is necessary.

It's not just what he did. It's the way that he did it. There was a fundamental dishonesty at the heart of him - for all his political skills - that in the end has trashed his legacy and which has trashed to some extent New Labour's legacy. That and a lack of political courage. There might well have been a case to be made for intervention in Iraq. But he wasn't prepared to make it. So he came up with the WMD garbage. It was wrong; it did damage to the reputation of the intelligence services; the whole war damaged the British Army's reputation; and it damaged our trust in politicians on a matter as important as life and death. Even if you think that politicians are natural liars I think most of us would expect them not to lie on something as important as this.

He was and is a narcissistic weasel. He may be intelligent and he may be right on some aspects of Brexit. But he has proved himself to be untrustworthy. And that colours how people view him. Sometimes - if you have a difficult but necessary argument to make - you also need to find the right person to make it, someone who will be listened to by those you are seeking to persuade. Not those who agree with you already.

williamglenn said:

Casino_Royale said:

I'm very relaxed about Blair's interventions.

You should remember one lesson of Trump's success: hugely unpopular or divisive people can still win elections. Plenty of ordinary voters will have reactions to Blair that you wouldn't expect.

His rating is -60%

Blair is 7 years younger than the US President. Plenty of time left for a second act.

Mortimer said:

The_Taxman said:

isam said:

The instigator of the Iraq war being used to troll Leavers... "my enemy's enemy" never felt more applicable

RIP Collateral Damage Iraqi's

I have watched IDS today deride Tony Blair and seen comments like yours.

I think the Iraq war was one of the big mistakes in post second world war Britain. HOWEVER, IDS LETS REMEMBER UNDER PRIVY COUNCIL ACCESS CONDITIONS ENDOURSED THE IRAQ WAR. He saw the same information/ intelligence that Blair did and advocated publically and voted in the House of Commons accordingly.

IDS was ousted some time later becoming the first Tory leader ever to not have fought a General Election. For some reason Tony Blair should be ignored whilst people like IDS should be listened too. Both are as bad as each other but Tony Blair can never be described as an extremist whereas IDS has always been clearly right wing.

Another interesting thing is the Tories are proposing a Brexit which is a complete break with government policy since the 1970s. Why is this anymore extreme than the alternative economic policy the Labour party currently advocates? One could argue if Tory Brexit is a virtue of being optimistic about the UKs future then why not optimism in Labour's policy?

I think the Tories are skating on thin ice and people will eventually wake up to the kamikaze ideas that have taken hold in the government. it could well be the case Brexit opens up the way to a very left wing government and everything the Tories oppose.

'Why is this anymore extreme than the alternative economic policy the Labour party currently advocates?'

Because more people voted for Brexit than have ever voted for anything in this country.

So that makes it all right then? Some people are going to look very foolish when Brexit takes place. Maybe economic theory and results of hundreds of years of study on how trade affects a countries economic activity is all wrong. Maybe we should be optimistic and it will be alright! Yeah right. Labours economic plan is barking mad but the Tories potentially taking the UK out on WTO terms is sound economic policy (Not that WTO policy was ever explained to the masses in the referendum campaign and I suspect most people would not understand the implications of this).

The only thing that was possibly attractive about Brexit was an end to mass immigration. Yet the immigrants are still going to be given the red carpet, the best thing being the European immigrants of Christian origin will be replaced by people who may not integrate at all and may well have completely different ideas of how society should be governed. Brexit is a Con trick and just like the £350 million a week for the heath service the end of mass immigration will never materialise either.

To rain on the Remainer's parade:

We heard recently Tony Blair pledge to "do whatever it takes to help Ed Miliband win". But what would be help most, visible support or keeping out of the way? For Red Box, YouGov asked the nation: "Thinking about retired politicians playing a role in the current election, do you think getting support from the following politicians would be an asset or a liability for today's politicians?"

The overall greatest asset is considered to be John Major, who scores net zero among the general public, although he is +21 among Conservatives supporters. The second greatest asset, only a whisker behind Major, is Paddy Ashdown on net -1, and net +45 among Liberal Democrats. Bottom of the league is Tony Blair, at net -47, and even among Labour supporters he scores net -22.

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/02/18/blair-election-liability-and-major-asset-say-voter/

Roger said:

Ishmael_Z said:


FPT. "Obviously you are capable of being very relaxed about the murder of six figure numbers of brown people. Many of us are not, and it rather colours our response to anything Blair says about anything"

He only did what the Tories were egging him on to do and what they would have done were they in office. People on here are very happy to say Theresa May has no choice but to do whatever Trump or the US administration demands to maintain our special relationship yet when Blair did just that he became a pariah.

The usual suspects get really virulent about Blair because he played them for the biggest suckers. They spent 2002-03 jeering at assorted lefties, Libdems and Nats for being naive, sandal wearing, yoghurt knitters, and have then had to spend subsequent years accepting they were the credulous numpties. Some modest contrition might be more appropriate than their over compensating bellicosity.

Just listened to Trump on CNN addressing Boeing workers and they cheered and really demonstrated their support for him. Even CNN expressed surprise

Theuniondivvie said:

Roger said:

Ishmael_Z said:


FPT. "Obviously you are capable of being very relaxed about the murder of six figure numbers of brown people. Many of us are not, and it rather colours our response to anything Blair says about anything"

He only did what the Tories were egging him on to do and what they would have done were they in office. People on here are very happy to say Theresa May has no choice but to do whatever Trump or the US administration demands to maintain our special relationship yet when Blair did just that he became a pariah.

The usual suspects get really virulent about Blair because he played them for the biggest suckers. They spent 2002-03 jeering at assorted lefties, Libdems and Nats for being naive, sandal wearing, yoghurt knitters, and have then had to spend subsequent years accepting they were the credulous numpties. Some modest contrition might be more appropriate than their over compensating bellicosity.

A good point well made.

I don't think Blair's past matters at the moment. We are surrounded by conmen liars and chancers to a level politics has never seen before. Certainly not in my lifetime. Trump Johnson Farage Nuttall Gove IDS etc. Anyone who saw the two mating slugs Netanyahu and Trump will know where we're heading.

Blair certainly isn't short of skeletons but for those of us who care about the way things are going any lifeline will do.

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Just listened to Trump on CNN addressing Boeing workers and they cheered and really demonstrated their support for him. Even CNN expressed surprise

The blue collar billionaire. Alone but with the people.

Yorkcity said:

AndyJS said:

Blair is such an impressive speaker. He'd probably still be PM if he hadn't stood down in 2007.

Agreed . I still think he would have beat Cameron in 2020.,,After 9 ,11 I think he felt that as a Labour PM he had to stand with the USA .

Apologies ,2010

Yorkcity said:

AndyJS said:

Blair is such an impressive speaker. He'd probably still be PM if he hadn't stood down in 2007.

Agreed . I still think he would have beat Cameron in 2020.,,After 9 ,11 I think he felt that as a Labour PM he had to stand with the USA .

Should have listened to his Uncle Harold!

Big_G_NorthWales said:

williamglenn said:

Blair is 7 years younger than the US President. Plenty of time left for a second act.

We do not want any more illegal wars thank you

Who are you using to say it was illegal ? Our sovereign parliament voted for military action.

Yorkcity said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

williamglenn said:

Blair is 7 years younger than the US President. Plenty of time left for a second act.

We do not want any more illegal wars thank you

Who are you using to say it was illegal ? Our sovereign parliament voted for military action.

On a lie

ThomasNashe said:

Agree 100% It's Boris, rather than Blair, that makes we want to rise up and switch off the TV. Go Tony, Go!

Special marks, by the way, are awarded to the foreign secretary who, despite being an enthusiastic supporter of the Iraq War, responded to Blair’s speech by suggesting it could and should be ignored because Blair took the UK to war in Iraq.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/02/tony-blair-right-brexit/

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Just listened to Trump on CNN addressing Boeing workers and they cheered and really demonstrated their support for him. Even CNN expressed surprise

He just promised them a big order for the upgraded F18... why the surprise ?
Might not have got the same reception at a Lockheed plant, of course.

Ishmael_Z said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Roger said:

Ishmael_Z said:


FPT. "Obviously you are capable of being very relaxed about the murder of six figure numbers of brown people. Many of us are not, and it rather colours our response to anything Blair says about anything"

He only did what the Tories were egging him on to do and what they would have done were they in office. People on here are very happy to say Theresa May has no choice but to do whatever Trump or the US administration demands to maintain our special relationship yet when Blair did just that he became a pariah.

The usual suspects get really virulent about Blair because he played them for the biggest suckers. They spent 2002-03 jeering at assorted lefties, Libdems and Nats for being naive, sandal wearing, yoghurt knitters, and have then had to spend subsequent years accepting they were the credulous numpties. Some modest contrition might be more appropriate than their over compensating bellicosity.

What? If that means me, I didn't. I was opposed to the war from the get go because it was so patently an act of misdirected spite. And if you think that is impossible nbecause there is nothing in the tory mindset which is in any way opposed to war of any kind, consider this: tories do believe very strongly in due process - in this instance, in letting Blix finish his job and present his findings. And not murdering experts, and not lying to the House of Commons. Of course IDS looked almost as keen to fellate Blair as Blair was to fellate Bush, but with a proper tory with an IQ above double figures in charge things would possibly have turned out differently.

It wasn't about you as it happens.

Yorkcity said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

williamglenn said:

Blair is 7 years younger than the US President. Plenty of time left for a second act.

We do not want any more illegal wars thank you

Who are you using to say it was illegal ? Our sovereign parliament voted for military action.

Really? I thought it was merely a resolution of the House of Commons. A resolution of the House of Commons does not change the law, it is simply an expression of opinion.

Responsibility for going to war remains with the Crown.

What Blair did was to poison the body politic such that we now expect governments to ask for "permission" from the House of Commons to go to war, and therefore to forewarn the enemy and forego any element of surprise.

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Yorkcity said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

williamglenn said:

Blair is 7 years younger than the US President. Plenty of time left for a second act.

We do not want any more illegal wars thank you

Who are you using to say it was illegal ? Our sovereign parliament voted for military action.

On a lie

Why has no subsequent British government made that point and apologised? Surely it is to the UK's shame that they haven't, as well as being contrary to our interests.

Scott_P said:

ThomasNashe said:

Agree 100% It's Boris, rather than Blair, that makes we want to rise up and switch off the TV. Go Tony, Go!

Special marks, by the way, are awarded to the foreign secretary who, despite being an enthusiastic supporter of the Iraq War, responded to Blair’s speech by suggesting it could and should be ignored because Blair took the UK to war in Iraq.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/02/tony-blair-right-brexit/

Johnson wasn't an enthusiastic supporter of Blair's Iraq War. Fake news is contaminating even upper journalism.

Ishmael_Z said:

chestnut said:

More people voted for Cameron in 2010 than Blair in 2001 and 2005.

If Cameron, who remained reasonably credible and popular, could not persuade the UK public last June, then it's hard to imagine that Blair would do better.

I think Blair would have got a more persuasive new deal offer out of the EU than Cameron did.

The history of his negotiations with the EU hardly demonstrates that... and the likelihood of his having offered a referendum is approximately 0%.

And post Iraq, no one believes a word he says anyway.

Yorkcity said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

williamglenn said:

Blair is 7 years younger than the US President. Plenty of time left for a second act.

We do not want any more illegal wars thank you

Who are you using to say it was illegal ? Our sovereign parliament voted for military action.

Sovereign parliaments can still engage in illegal activity.

@glenoglaza1: Interesting that Johnson, Farage, even Caroline Lucas are attacking Blair the man as they have no coherent reply to his argument #Brexit

It's like being on CiF here with all the Blair bile.

His article was excellent but of no use now that we've voted to Leave.

He still believes that he did the right thing in Iraq but sadly history, the grim reality of the death toll, and indeed I think otherwise.