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FF43 said:

I was strongly pro the Union in the last IndyRef. If another referendum is held I would expect to vote against independence a second time, but something's broken and it won't be with the same determination. Basically, if I can accept Brexit, I can accept independence for Scotland. It's not entirely logical. In the next referendum Independentists will be as enthusiastic as ever, but this time they will be up against some very ambivalent Unionists.

The Nat independence rhetoric will ring hollow since they're blatant EU lickspittles. They're a joke party.

williamglenn said:

Yorkcity said:

williamglenn said:

If May anticipates a very big constitutional struggle to get A50 invoked, this is exactly the political positioning she would take to head off any threat of UKIP gaining ground.

I agree Farage and Nuttall surely can not ask for more.May is leaving no room for them.

UKIP are now literally pointless. They might as well shut up shop.

No, the job offer requirement May will agree is not the points system UKIP want and she will also likely continue some budget contributions to the EU for access for the car industry and financial services and pharmaceuticals to the single market

Cyclefree said:

Fenster said:

Mortimer said:

Scott_P said:

@Ed_Miliband: Fairly sure 'Let's give billions more to big business in tax cuts' wasn't on the bus...

At least there wasn't some balls about 'time to care'.

I'm not having a dig here. But has the liberal left ever been so weak in the UK?

10/15 years ago Blair and his EU-supporting government absolutely ruled the roost. Europhobes were widely regarded as minority fanatics.

Now the left is reduced to Farron, a few tweets from Ed Miliband and Martin Freeman.

What the bloody hell happened? This was unthinkable just a decade ago.

What happened? Blair gave us the Iraq war and the financial crisis. That's what happened. They destroyed trust in the political classes, in the system that permitted them to happen and now people have revolted.

Brexit is one of the consequences.

It's astonishing how toxic his legacy is.

I fell for the Blair charm. There must be millions like me.

I know it sounds bonkers but every time I see Blair nowadays - still a superb performer and great communicator, without doubt - I can't help thinking of him as the character in Robert Harris's book, The Ghost. As a charlatan, an actor.... a showman who had millions under his spell.

When he was clapped out of parliament 10 years ago I don't think anybody foresaw his paint peeling off in such an ugly, grimy manner.

Cyclefree said:

Fenster said:

Mortimer said:

Scott_P said:

@Ed_Miliband: Fairly sure 'Let's give billions more to big business in tax cuts' wasn't on the bus...

At least there wasn't some balls about 'time to care'.

I'm not having a dig here. But has the liberal left ever been so weak in the UK?

10/15 years ago Blair and his EU-supporting government absolutely ruled the roost. Europhobes were widely regarded as minority fanatics.

Now the left is reduced to Farron, a few tweets from Ed Miliband and Martin Freeman.

What the bloody hell happened? This was unthinkable just a decade ago.

What happened? Blair gave us the Iraq war and the financial crisis. That's what happened. They destroyed trust in the political classes, in the system that permitted them to happen and now people have revolted.

Brexit is one of the consequences.

It was the Iraq war that is the root of it. The GFC was something that happens from time to time.

The Iraq war showed the UK as the wannabe sidekick of America, while our EU neighbours were opposed or aghast at our sycophancy. It kicked off the refugee crisis and gave the spur to terrorism.

It's ironic that the UK Foreign Office, at the behest of the Americans, were the biggest cheerleaders and supporters for EU enlargement to the former Eastern block and now its the mass migration caused by this enlargement that's essentially resulted in us on the brink of completely leaving altogether. Of course Blair and Labour should take a big share of the blame for not following Germany, France, Belgium, Holland, Italy etc and imposing the 7 year transitional controls. But still.........

Black_Rook said:

Cyclefree said:

Fenster said:

Mortimer said:

Scott_P said:

@Ed_Miliband: Fairly sure 'Let's give billions more to big business in tax cuts' wasn't on the bus...

At least there wasn't some balls about 'time to care'.

I'm not having a dig here. But has the liberal left ever been so weak in the UK?

10/15 years ago Blair and his EU-supporting government absolutely ruled the roost. Europhobes were widely regarded as minority fanatics.

Now the left is reduced to Farron, a few tweets from Ed Miliband and Martin Freeman.

What the bloody hell happened? This was unthinkable just a decade ago.

What happened? Blair gave us the Iraq war and the financial crisis. That's what happened. They destroyed trust in the political classes, in the system that permitted them to happen and now people have revolted.

Brexit is one of the consequences.

Well quite. Not all, but a great many, of the problems and controversies that we now face can be traced back to the staggering strategic ineptitude of Tony Blair.

* Love of open borders and refusal to implement transitional immigration controls for the A8 accession states in 2004 - arguably led directly to Brexit.
* Botched asymmetric devolution, delegating huge Governmental authority to Edinburgh whilst leaving Westminster in charge of the purse strings - led to unstoppable rise of SNP grievance machine and near-collapse of the 300-year old British state, and created an opposing English grievance into the bargain.
* Failure to expel Jeremy Corbyn and other extreme Left serial rebels from the party, at a time when he enjoyed massive majorities and could readily have done so - has now resulted in a chaotic Labour Party in flames, and destabilised our entire Parliamentary system of Government by leaving the Conservatives effectively unopposed.
* Iraq War involvement - helped destabilise an entire region of the globe and substantially eroded popular trust in politicians.

And he would also have tried to lead us into the Euro, which would almost certainly have left Britain in a state ten times worse than Ireland post-Lehman Brothers, were it not for the intervention of Gordon Brown.

Good post.

And Ed Balls deserves huge plaudits for the Euro decision. He was Brown's adviser at the time and was strongly against joining. Devising the impossible five point plan.

Cyclefree said:

Fenster said:

Mortimer said:

Scott_P said:

@Ed_Miliband: Fairly sure 'Let's give billions more to big business in tax cuts' wasn't on the bus...

At least there wasn't some balls about 'time to care'.

I'm not having a dig here. But has the liberal left ever been so weak in the UK?

10/15 years ago Blair and his EU-supporting government absolutely ruled the roost. Europhobes were widely regarded as minority fanatics.

Now the left is reduced to Farron, a few tweets from Ed Miliband and Martin Freeman.

What the bloody hell happened? This was unthinkable just a decade ago.

What happened? Blair gave us the Iraq war and the financial crisis. That's what happened. They destroyed trust in the political classes, in the system that permitted them to happen and now people have revolted.

Brexit is one of the consequences.

But isn't Brexit another Iraq War? A project based on false assumptions and then oversold. I guess it's hard to avoid your own prejudice. I was opposed to the Iraq War because I couldn't see how it was going to turn out well. The same applies to Brexit.

FF43 said:

MonikerDiCanio said:

FF43 said:

I was strongly pro the Union in the last IndyRef. If another referendum is held I would expect to vote against independence a second time, but something's broken and it won't be with the same determination. Basically, if I can accept Brexit, I can accept independence for Scotland. It's not entirely logical. In the next referendum Independentists will be as enthusiastic as ever, but this time they will be up against some very ambivalent Unionists.

The Nat independence rhetoric will ring hollow since they're blatant EU lickspittles. They're a joke party.

I have no love for the SNP but they are neither blatant EU lickspittles (as if that would put me off them!) nor a joke party. Arguably they are the best run party in Britain - well organised, masses of volunteers, very clear about goals and very on message.

They're New SLab and about to come a mighty cropper. Awful people.

williamglenn said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

The other aspect to this is Mrs May is crossing Nicola Sturgeon's red line.

So over to you Mrs Sturgeon.

Losing Sindyref 2 during the A50 negotiations would be interesting... Would May try to block it until we're out?

Perhaps the EU would then offer a "transitional arrangement" series of deals for each sector, or chapter of the Acquis communautaire and watch gleefully as TM spends half her time firefighting/blocking them...

Black_Rook said:

Cyclefree said:

Fenster said:

Mortimer said:

Scott_P said:

@Ed_Miliband: Fairly sure 'Let's give billions more to big business in tax cuts' wasn't on the bus...

At least there wasn't some balls about 'time to care'.

I'm not having a dig here. But has the liberal left ever been so weak in the UK?

10/15 years ago Blair and his EU-supporting government absolutely ruled the roost. Europhobes were widely regarded as minority fanatics.

Now the left is reduced to Farron, a few tweets from Ed Miliband and Martin Freeman.

What the bloody hell happened? This was unthinkable just a decade ago.

What happened? Blair gave us the Iraq war and the financial crisis. That's what happened. They destroyed trust in the political classes, in the system that permitted them to happen and now people have revolted.

Brexit is one of the consequences.

Well quite. Not all, but a great many, of the problems and controversies that we now face can be traced back to the staggering strategic ineptitude of Tony Blair.

* Love of open borders and refusal to implement transitional immigration controls for the A8 accession states in 2004 - arguably led directly to Brexit.
* Botched asymmetric devolution, delegating huge Governmental authority to Edinburgh whilst leaving Westminster in charge of the purse strings - led to unstoppable rise of SNP grievance machine and near-collapse of the 300-year old British state, and created an opposing English grievance into the bargain.
* Failure to expel Jeremy Corbyn and other extreme Left serial rebels from the party, at a time when he enjoyed massive majorities and could readily have done so - has now resulted in a chaotic Labour Party in flames, and destabilised our entire Parliamentary system of Government by leaving the Conservatives effectively unopposed.
* Iraq War involvement - helped destabilise an entire region of the globe and substantially eroded popular trust in politicians.

And he would also have tried to lead us into the Euro, which would almost certainly have left Britain in a state ten times worse than Ireland post-Lehman Brothers, were it not for the intervention of Gordon Brown.

Good post,Blairism was the downfall of our membership of the EU.

I thought SeanT said he had left Twitter...

@goddersbloom: The reality is Leavers create wealth, Remainers in the main consume it.
When push comes to shove Remainers are of no value to society. twitter.com/crookedfootbal…

Jonathan said:

Blair, still better than anything that has followed. About 10,000 times better than the Brexit B team we have today.

Blair's legacy the 2008 crash, Iraq and Brexit due to his failure to introduce a transition period for Eastern European migrants in 2004, though I will give him the minimum wage, civil partnerships, the NI peace process and a fairly prosperous few years at the start of his term

FF43 said:

MonikerDiCanio said:

FF43 said:

I was strongly pro the Union in the last IndyRef. If another referendum is held I would expect to vote against independence a second time, but something's broken and it won't be with the same determination. Basically, if I can accept Brexit, I can accept independence for Scotland. It's not entirely logical. In the next referendum Independentists will be as enthusiastic as ever, but this time they will be up against some very ambivalent Unionists.

The Nat independence rhetoric will ring hollow since they're blatant EU lickspittles. They're a joke party.

I have no love for the SNP but they are neither blatant EU lickspittles (as if that would put me off them!) nor a joke party. Arguably they are the best run party in Britain - well organised, masses of volunteers, very clear about goals and very on message.

Apart from the fact that their message, as they have spun it before, during and after the EU referendum, no longer makes any sense.

What it basically amounts to is: 'If the English drag us out of the EU single market against our will, we shall leave the UK single market to get back into the EU one. Even though most of our exports actually go into the UK single market. Allegedly. Because that's just Tory lies really. Innit?'

The first independence referendum had a very lengthy campaign period, and what was said during that time cannot be unsaid. There are sound arguments around sovereignty for leaving the UK, just as there were for the UK leaving the EU, and the Scottish Government will be free to set out an argument for how full sovereignty will be best for Scotland, how sovereign powers can be used, and how their vision for Scotland varies fundamentally from the path on which the UK is headed. But they are not going to be able to get away from all those inconvenient arguments about the currency, the Barnett formula, the public sector deficit and the unpredictable price of oil from indyref1, as well as the new ones - potential tariff barriers with England if Scotland rejoins the EU, and the decommissioning costs of the oilfields - that would inevitably be raised during indyref2.

The SNP high command now has some really difficult decisions to make. Do they think their arguments are strong enough to win indyref2 - and is there even a large enough groundswell of popular opinion for it to be demanded in the first place? If they don't go for it then their bluff will have been called by Theresa May and they will look very foolish, and their movement could fall to infighting as the pro-indy hardliners become disillusioned. If they do go for it and fail to win then Sturgeon has had it, and indyref3 won't be coming around for decades, if at all.

The SNP is strong, but it's not without its Achilles' heel.

@seanjonesqc: Brexit is supposedly the moment the elites understand the power of the left behind. By the time it's done the reverse will be true.

FormerToryOrange said:

Clear logical fallacy.

Logic has no place in the debate. That is rather the point.

Jonathan said:

Blair, still better than anything that has followed. About 10,000 times better than the Brexit B team we have today.

Blair is a money grubbing disgrace. He's a bloody stain on Labour that will never wash off.

Black_Rook said:

Cyclefree said:

Fenster said:

Mortimer said:

Scott_P said:

@Ed_Miliband: Fairly sure 'Let's give billions more to big business in tax cuts' wasn't on the bus...

At least there wasn't some balls about 'time to care'.

I'm not having a dig here. But has the liberal left ever been so weak in the UK?

10/15 years ago Blair and his EU-supporting government absolutely ruled the roost. Europhobes were widely regarded as minority fanatics.

Now the left is reduced to Farron, a few tweets from Ed Miliband and Martin Freeman.

What the bloody hell happened? This was unthinkable just a decade ago.

What happened? Blair gave us the Iraq war and the financial crisis. That's what happened. They destroyed trust in the political classes, in the system that permitted them to happen and now people have revolted.

Brexit is one of the consequences.

Well quite. Not all, but a great many, of the problems and controversies that we now face can be traced back to the staggering strategic ineptitude of Tony Blair.

* Love of open borders and refusal to implement transitional immigration controls for the A8 accession states in 2004 - arguably led directly to Brexit.
* Botched asymmetric devolution, delegating huge Governmental authority to Edinburgh whilst leaving Westminster in charge of the purse strings - led to unstoppable rise of SNP grievance machine and near-collapse of the 300-year old British state, and created an opposing English grievance into the bargain.
* Failure to expel Jeremy Corbyn and other extreme Left serial rebels from the party, at a time when he enjoyed massive majorities and could readily have done so - has now resulted in a chaotic Labour Party in flames, and destabilised our entire Parliamentary system of Government by leaving the Conservatives effectively unopposed.
* Iraq War involvement - helped destabilise an entire region of the globe and substantially eroded popular trust in politicians.

And he would also have tried to lead us into the Euro, which would almost certainly have left Britain in a state ten times worse than Ireland post-Lehman Brothers, were it not for the intervention of Gordon Brown.

But he did abolish the anachronistic licensing laws! (Although the ghost of them still lingers in many pubs, to my annoyance, so at best a partial success.)

Britain should not be “half-in, half-out” of the EU or “hold on to bits of membership as we leave”, the prime minister will say in a speech laying out her negotiating objectives.

She will be less definitive on whether Britain will seek to remain in the bloc’s customs union, which allows goods to move freely without customs checks. Boris Johnson, the foreign secretary, has been among cabinet ministers pressing her to commit to a “clean Brexit”, ruling out any chance of remaining in the customs union. Allies of Philip Hammond, the chancellor, were confident last night that he had won a battle to leave the option on the table.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/may-sets-out-hard-brexit-vision-in-bid-to-calm-markets-ngs5p5w5g

Tykejohnno said:

HYUFD said:

Jonathan said:

Blair, still better than anything that has followed. About 10,000 times better than the Brexit B team we have today.

Blair's legacy the 2008 crash, Iraq and Brexit due to his failure to introduce a transition period for Eastern European migrants in 2004, though I will give him the minimum wage, civil partnerships, the NI peace process and a fairly prosperous few years at the start of his term

I think the open borders for the new EU countries and the lies after of only 13 thousand migrants would come was so damaging,that we went from unhappy remain to what we have today.

Precisely. Ukip as a right-wing populist force has its origins back when its founder was deposed after the '97 election, and it started to feed off hard line Eurosceptic defections from the Tory Party. But the rocket was only really put up it as a result of uncontrolled mass immigration, later augmented by the EU's appalling mishandling of the Eurozone crisis.

Ukip grew too popular for comfort, and this backed Cameron into a corner. Yes, the EU referendum pledge was made for party political reasons. Yes, he expected that a second Coalition would give him an excuse to put it off. And yes, I dare say he thought that he could lead it to victory, and underestimated the extent of scepticism about the EU in the country at large.

But Cameron was also left to clean up a mess that Labour had created, and it was best that the centre-right called that referendum, lest the far-right eventually ended up doing it for them. That's probably also a large part of the reasoning for Theresa May going for the flavour of Brexit that she has chosen.

Ukip always did very well at European elections, but its impact has been quite limited elsewhere and it's still stuck on roughly the same voting intention in the polls as it received in the last General Election, i.e. about 12%. There are a number of parties on the Continent that are an awful lot nastier than Ukip, some of which are also more popular. The Conservatives have the opportunity to try to stop that sort of nonsense here, and they're going for it.

Tykejohnno said:

HYUFD said:

Jonathan said:

Blair, still better than anything that has followed. About 10,000 times better than the Brexit B team we have today.

Blair's legacy the 2008 crash, Iraq and Brexit due to his failure to introduce a transition period for Eastern European migrants in 2004, though I will give him the minimum wage, civil partnerships, the NI peace process and a fairly prosperous few years at the start of his term

I think the open borders for the new EU countries and the lies after of only 13 thousand migrants would come was so damaging,that we went from unhappy remain to what we have today.

Yes, that set the ball rolling towards Brexit

rcs1000 said:

Yorkcity said:

Scott_P said:

Have Nissan been on the phone?

@faisalislam: My understanding: tho out of ECJ jurisdiction, & so Single Market formal membership, Customs Union language in May speech less concrete 1/2

Hope Rolls Royce have not having to pay 671 milion over bribery claims.

That is to the US and the Brazilians, nothing to do with Europe

Really, If I've I understood you correctly, I'd read that again.

williamglenn said:

Could Sturgeon propose a referendum with the question, "Should Scotland remain within the European Union as an independent member state?"

That would be a wheeze and a winnable referendum question. I think the Pot Bellied Pig should hire you as one of her advisors.

williamglenn said:

Could Sturgeon propose a referendum with the question, "Should Scotland remain within the European Union as an independent member state?"

It would be easier to win since there would a get out clause - if Spain vetoes or accession is blocked in some other way then Scotland would stay in the UK. It would just be a mandate to insert herself into the A50 negotiations.

Err, nope. You're only allowed one question in a referendum, and there's no chance of one happening in Scotland during the EU exit negotiations.

The SNP have a mandate to look after health, education and policing in Scotland, maybe that's where their focus should be right now?

foxinsoxuk said:

MTimT said:

No wonder politicians are so despised and disbelieved:

"Chlorine-soaked chickens will be on sale in British supermarkets if the US gets its way in a post-Brexit trade deal, Nick Clegg has warned."

Each time I go to the supermarket here in the US, I just love picking up my chlorine-soaked chickens.

Most US chicken is chlorine treated:

http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2014/09/30/351774240/european-activists-say-they-dont-want-any-u-s-chlorine-chicken

My objection is that such treatment just rinses off the surface bacteria, while deeper bacteria thrive.

More on the poor practice in US slaughterhouses:

http://www.worldincrisis.org/Int-Meat/Int-Meat-05.html

Faecal contamination of ground beef is particularly common there. It is unwise to eat US meat "rare". This is an area where food safety is seen by the USA as a Non-tarrif barrier.