politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Analysing the best Prime Minister polling
Comments
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Twitter is the voicebox of the young and the naive.John_M said:
Sloppy language from me. I assure you, politics does not make me mope around like some surly teenager. I was hoping to distinguish myself from the more jingoistic leavers who appear to assume that Johnny Foreigner will be cowed by plucky John Bull.Theuniondivvie said:
Cheer up.John_M said:
my decision to switch from unhappy Remainer to unhappy Leaver.HYUFD said:
Yes, it was Cameron's very poor renegotiation which led to the Leave voteMarqueeMark said:
We saw a year ago what the alternative approach to dealing with the EU achieved, when Cameron was told to grasp his ankles and assume the position. May's approach has at least learnt from that.HYUFD said:
Nope, she is simply recognising the British people voted Leave to regain sovereignty and control of their borders and while she wants the best trading relationship possible with the EU that is non negotiableJonathan said:Theresa May " I want a hard Brexit " = " I am shit at negotiating and we'll get nothing"
I think Brexit will be shit. I just think a future in the EU would be shittier. It doesn't exactly get the pulse racing. I fully appreciate that I might be wrong. Certainty is for the young, the naive and (apparently) Twitter.
And it's a fad. The Betamax of social interaction.0 -
Agreed. Hammond has a golden opportunity to make a massive simplification of our insanely complex tax system.rcs1000 said:
You need to equalise capital gains tax and income tax then, otherwise people will create businesses, accumulate profits, and then liquidate/sell them to convert income to capital gains.Patrick said:Irrespective of Brexit we should be targetting 0% Corporation Tax anyway. Abolish it. Tax the flows of cash to shareholders or debt holders instead. Much more direct. Easier to calculate. Almost impossible to avoid or evade. No allowances or loopholes for clever accountants to play with.
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Glad you had a great trip, and congratulations again on the engagement.MaxPB said:Back to Heathrow to be met by drizzle.
All in all Fiji is unbelievable. An absolute must see. We stayed at the Sheraton in Denaru, paradise.
To anyone planning a honeymoon, anniversary or just a getaway I'd highly recommend Fiji. It's not the cheapest place to go, the 7 nights worked out to £2.3k plus £2.5k for flights with Cathay Pacific in club class. But I'd vowed to spend my Trump winnings on enjoying myself and spending time with my, now, fiance. No regrets.
Thanks for everyone's warm wishes from a few days ago as well.
I now have a month in between now and when I start, we're thinking of going to the Philippines, but not sure if it's safe.
AIUI from friends here, Philippines is quite safe if you're not a drug dealer or staying in a shanty town. @AlsoIndigo will probably know more as he's based there.
Feel free to drop by the sandpit if you're heading that way, weather is good at this time of year and there's plenty of beer around.0 -
All true to an extent - but I rather think you are mistaken on which groups the Right dislikes.SouthamObserver said:
No, prole hatred has been with us since the year dot and has manifested itself in a variety of ways over the centuries, from slavery through to feudalism, horrific working conditions, non access to education and social security, and so on. The idea that the right are happy with working class people going on strike for better working conditions and pay is laughable, as is the idea is interested in ensuring all proles have access to decent housing, transport facilities and affordable heating. The right is only interested in the proles when it wants to win an election or a referendum, and then its modus operandi is to identify one set of proles to paint as hate figures in order to encourage another set to vote in a certain way. The right sees proles as welfare junkies and the enemy within, and holds then in total contempt. And now the right wants to cut the public services that the proles rely on and reduce their job security.Malmesbury said:
Prole hatred bubbled to the surface when it became clear that the Left became progressive. Since in the game of Progressive Trumps, Foreigners beat Locals, the result was inevitable.Alanbrooke said:
The bastards and find people with some commitment to their own country.Gardenwalker said:
Yes. "technology".Dromedary said:malcolmg said:
Equally funny is he spouts it from ItalyCornishBlue said:
Wow. revolt.tyson said:The part of our workforce that is educated, literate and motivated. i.e. European migrants will be precluded or just hacked off from coming here, and our productivity and capital investment is shit. Tax cuts will just make our rich elites wealthier.
To use John M's lovely metaphor.......we'll be left with the square root of fuck all.....
Many well-heeled.
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Add in the fact that by loving all things foreign (and hating all things local), you can pretend to be educated, sophisticated etc.....
I wonder if Tyson has ever asked a working class Italian his/her opinion of the Roma...
See how easy that was?
...We are discussing the progressive hatred (who seem to have written off everyone below C1) for the proles. Who want to fire them and replace them with imported replacements. It is a cultural hatred - which is always seen as sharper and more savage by those on the pointed end. Hence the reaction to it by the deplorables.
Mind you, Orwell was talking about a variant of this, so it has been around for a while.0 -
If not hatred, patronising and sneering contempt. If any twisting was done, it was done by Ed Miliband, who pretty much sacked her.OldKingCole said:
I don’t think Thornberry’s tweet demonstrated ‘hate”. It’s been twisted by the same sort of people who regarded Michael Foots smart “British Warm” as a "donkey jacket”.Ishmael_Z said:
The paradigm case of prole hatred in recent years is the Emily Thornberry tweet of St George's flags in Rochester. What is her political affiliation?SouthamObserver said:
No, prole hatred has been with us since the year dot and has manifested itself in a variety of ways over the centuries, snip for space on and reduce their job security.Malmesbury said:Alanbrooke said:
The bastards and find people with some commitment to their own country.Gardenwalker said:
Yes. "technology".Dromedary said:malcolmg said:
Equally funny is he spouts it from ItalyCornishBlue said:
Wow. revolt.tyson said:The part of our workforce that is educated, literate and motivated. i.e. European migrants will be precluded or just hacked off from coming here, and our productivity and capital investment is shit. Tax cuts will just make our rich elites wealthier.
To use John M's lovely metaphor.......we'll be left with the square root of fuck all.....
Many well-heeled.
It is further encouraged by the fact that hating groups has been outlawed in ProgressiveLand - without removing the mindset of hating "out groups". Since it is impossible to be racist against white people, it follows that hating groups of them is OK. So it is an outlet for those who need to express their hatred, but feel socially constrained not to burn crosses on the lawns of their black neighbours.
Add in the fact that by loving all things foreign (and hating all things local), you can pretend to be educated, sophisticated etc.....
I wonder if Tyson has ever asked a working class Italian his/her opinion of the Roma...
See how easy that was?0 -
http://www.economicshelp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/uk-real-spending-per-capita.pngHYUFD said:
Not really until 2004, from 1997-2001 Blair and Brown spent less than Major and Clarke hadSouthamObserver said:
Spending on the NHS was increased significantly.HYUFD said:
Spending in the first Blair government was lower than under the Major government and significantly lower than it is even now, I did not notice the NHS collapsing thenSouthamObserver said:
Err, no it wasn't. Public services were not cut by the last Labour government, which also took us into the social chapter.Alanbrooke said:
err that was Gordonomics for 13 years and you voted for more as Mandy said to get filthy richSouthamObserver said:
Yep,else entirely, but it is coming.OllyT said:
Seriously, that is your "vision" for a sustainable economic model for post-Brexit Britain? God help us.MarqueeMark said:
Every time they buy a 50 million quid crash pad - they pay stamp duty.OllyT said:
Good luck with that - how many of the cuer all along.MarqueeMark said:
But UK.Gardenwalker said:
As Hammond says, we will need to regain competitiveness. The only way to do that is to reduce taxation. In turn this implies further cuts in government spending.Gallowgate said:
Why must our welfare system change if we have 'hard' Brexit?Gardenwalker said:It's a fair and clear appraisal from Hammond.
He continues to impress, or perhaps is flattered by comparison with his cabinet colleagues.
If we do indeed have a hard Brexit, with the economic dislocation Hammond implies, what is going to give? The country did not vote Brexit in order to dismantle the social welfare system, but logic says it must follow.
See also, Trump's emerging economic policy.
Want tax rates for the first 10 years.
Do all the stuff where we'll no longer need to go to Brussels to ask for permission.
Every time they buy another McLaren or Ferrari supercar - they pay VAT.
A few more nurses get paid for every time they take their latest lady off to the shops.
why the sudden change of mind ?
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I regard that as the best period in my life in the NHS, with the internal market out of favour and before Milburn, Ried and Hewitt started trashing it.HYUFD said:
Not really until 2004, from 1997-2001 Blair and Brown spent less than Major and Clarke hadSouthamObserver said:
Spending on the NHS was increased significantly.HYUFD said:
Spending in the first Blair government was lower than under the Major government and significantly lower than it is even now, I did not notice the NHS collapsing thenSouthamObserver said:
Err, no it wasn't. Public services were not cut by the last Labour government, which also took us into the social chapter.Alanbrooke said:
err that was Gordonomics for 13 years and you voted for more as Mandy said to get filthy richSouthamObserver said:
Yep,else entirely, but it is coming.OllyT said:
Seriously, that is your "vision" for a sustainable economic model for post-Brexit Britain? God help us.MarqueeMark said:
Every time they buy a 50 million quid crash pad - they pay stamp duty.OllyT said:
Good luck with that - how many of the cuer all along.MarqueeMark said:
But we don't have to reduce taxation. We can increase the number of .Gardenwalker said:
As Hammond says, we will need to regain competitiveness. The only way to do that is to reduce taxation. In turn this implies further cuts in government spending.Gallowgate said:
Why must our welfare system change if we have 'hard' Brexit?Gardenwalker said:It's a fair and clear appraisal from Hammond.
He continues to impress, or perhaps is flattered by comparison with his cabinet colleagues.
If we do indeed have a hard Brexit, with the economic dislocation Hammond implies, what is going to give? The country did not vote Brexit in order to dismantle the social welfare system, but logic says it must follow.
See also, Trump's emerging economic policy.
Every time they buy another McLaren or Ferrari supercar - they pay VAT.
A few more nurses get paid for every time they take their latest lady off to the shops.
why the sudden change of mind ?
While there was more money later, the targets, re-introduction of the purchaser provider split and the deprofessionalisation of the workforce made life less good.0 -
Switzerland is in the EMA, no?williamglenn said:
Staying in the EMA without being in the EEA would require very significant change in the legal structure on their side. There's no reason for them to offer it, no matter how much we want to pay.rcs1000 said:
We don't disagree. There are some on here - like Luckyguy - who have explicitly called for us to have no relationship with the EU going forward.CornishBlue said:
We should aim to have BOTH a deal with the EU and a deal with our Anglosphere allies. They will be different in content and nature, but should not be mutually exclusive. EU membership means that we cannot do such deals with the Anglosphere, China, Japan, etc.rcs1000 said:
That's very much my view too. Like it or not, it is a massive market that is physically very close to us. We want our success to be a beacon to others who don't believe in the ultimate creation of the United States of Europe, but at the same time, they aren't our enemies. They are people who largely share our values, and with whom our histories are tied over thousands of years.John_M said:I urge everyone to read Hammond's remarks in Die Welt. I think he summarises the views of many moderate Leavers and Remainers very well. Personally, I've always wanted the closest possible relationship with the EU sans the element of political integration.
I think the idea that there is an easy Anglosphere trading bloc that we can create, so we can simply forget and ignore the Europeans, is bonkers. Yes, we will get FTAs with Australia, Canada* and NZ. We might even join NAFTA (although that comes with some serious sovereignty issues of its own, and the Trump plans to tax the *profits* on anyone importing to the US, irrespective of Free Trade Agreements, dramatically limits its attractiveness). But distance and timezones matter, and the truth is that there are plenty of EU schemes - such as Open Skies - that we will probably want to be involved in going forward.
Before the referendum, I said we should Leave, but not in anger. The EU just isn't for us. Based on my experience, going into negotiations and saying "we love you, this structure just isn't for us" is far more likely to be productive than willy waving.
* The largest of those, of course, already has an FTA with the EU, and a deal with New Zealand is currently being negotiated. So, our gains are likely to be modest from these compared to being in the EU.
My view is that we'll have a series of FTAs with the EU, like Switzerland, and we'll pay to be members of various EU organised bodies (like the European Medicines Agency, Open Skies, the ESA, Erasmus, etc.). In other words, we'll be half way between Canada and Switzerland in terms of access, and cost.0 -
European regions by GDP per capita:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_regions_by_GDP
English Midlands and North
£19,100 Lincolnshire to £28,800 Cheshire
Bulgaria
£6,500 to £8,700
Croatia
£14,200 to £14,500
Czech Republic (excluding Prague)
£15,400 to £17,500
Estonia
£15,500
Hungary (excluding Budapest)
£9,700 to £15,900
Latvia
£13,100
Lithuania
£14,900
Macedonia
£8,700
Poland (excluding Warsaw)
£10,300 to £17,200
Romania (excluding Bucharest)
£8,800 to £12,900
Slovakia (excluding Bratislava)
£12,100 to £16,700
So every region in Eastern Europe outside the capital cities had a lower GDP per capita than Lincolnshire.
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CLAPSMarqueeMark said:
If it is either 50,000 Commercially Important People taking up residence in the UK each year, or a random selection of 300,00 chancers happy to strap themselves to the underside of vehicles to evade our immigration laws - in the best scenario, to become waiters, in the worst, coming here to kill and maim in the name of their religion - then I know which side the British people are going to go for every time. Which doesn't make it a right wing Tory vision.SouthamObserver said:Yep, this is the right wing Tory vision. Oligarchs pushing up the price of property and taking advantage of a low regulation UK in which public services are cut to the bare minimum and job security is next to non-existent. To be fair, this has been pretty obvious from the get-go and people voted for it. Whether they will be happy with the reality is something else entirely, but it is coming.
It makes it what the voters want from their politicians.
But then, they wanted a Referendum on the EU. Which those enlightened liberal souls in Labour and the LibDems fought to prevent for 18 years. And right up to the last election.
Which they each badly lost.0 -
Mr. HYUFD, but does Macron want an endorsement from Ed Miliband's less popular French cousin?0
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I see the Brexiteers are still channelling AA Gill this morning...MarqueeMark said:....whilst being advised by the genetically incapable.
Unleash the British bulldogs on the EUro-nads.....
Really, that’s their best offer? That’s the plan? To swagger into Brussels with Union Jack pants on and say: “ ’Ello luv, you’re looking nice today. Would you like some?”
When the rest of us ask how that’s really going to work, leavers reply, with Terry-Thomas smirks, that “they’re going to still really fancy us, honest, they’re gagging for us. Possibly not Merkel, but the bosses of Mercedes and those French vintners and cheesemakers, they can’t get enough of old John Bull. Of course they’re going to want to go on making the free market with two backs after we’ve got the decree nisi. Makes sense, doesn’t it?”0 -
Congrats, Mr. Max.0
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Probably not but looks like he is going to get oneMorris_Dancer said:Mr. HYUFD, but does Macron want an endorsement from Ed Miliband's less popular French cousin?
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Don't be ridiculous. Hard Brexit was always going to be the outcome. it's just the timing of the story that might have been affected by the NHS row.Jonathan said:
So May would sell her country out to avoid a bad press on the NHS?david_herdson said:Re Hard Brexit.
1. This outcome was always inevitable, as I noted on another channel:
https://www.totalpolitics.com/articles/opinion/david-herdson-hard-brexit-only-option-theresa-may
2. Who's talking about the NHS now? Dead cats and all that.0 -
I agree with your comments but think we have got off to a bad start particularly with idiots like boris johnson and liam fox alienating moderate european opinion. The approach may and hammond now signalling is much better and consistent with what many eurosceptic remainers like myself think.rcs1000 said:
That's very much my view too. Like it or not, it is a massive market that is physically very close to us. We want our success to be a beacon to others who don't believe in the ultimate creation of the United States of Europe, but at the same time, they aren't our enemies. They are people who largely share our values, and with whom our histories are tied over thousands of years.John_M said:I urge everyone to read Hammond's remarks in Die Welt. I think he summarises the views of many moderate Leavers and Remainers very well. Personally, I've always wanted the closest possible relationship with the EU sans the element of political integration.
I think the idea that there is an easy Anglosphere trading bloc that we can create, so we can simply forget and ignore the Europeans, is bonkers. Yes, we will get FTAs with Australia, Canada* and NZ. We might even join NAFTA (although that comes with some serious sovereignty issues of its own, and the Trump plans to tax the *profits* on anyone importing to the US, irrespective of Free Trade Agreements, dramatically limits its attractiveness). But distance and timezones matter, and the truth is that there are plenty of EU schemes - such as Open Skies - that we will probably want to be involved in going forward.
Before the referendum, I said we should Leave, but not in anger. The EU just isn't for us. Based on my experience, going into negotiations and saying "we love you, this structure just isn't for us" is far more likely to be productive than willy waving.
* The largest of those, of course, already has an FTA with the EU, and a deal with New Zealand is currently being negotiated. So, our gains are likely to be modest from these compared to being in the EU.
I also think may is correct that we should move on from leave and remain, and particularly that leavers should be more magnaminous in victory. It is a victory beyond their wildest dreams and the government is implementing the decision. Chill the fuck out.
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It's amazing how close some of those countries are to Lincolnshire already.another_richard said:European regions by GDP per capita:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_regions_by_GDP
English Midlands and North
£19,100 Lincolnshire to £28,800 Cheshire
Bulgaria
£6,500 to £8,700
Croatia
£14,200 to £14,500
Czech Republic (excluding Prague)
£15,400 to £17,500
Estonia
£15,500
Hungary (excluding Budapest)
£9,700 to £15,900
Latvia
£13,100
Lithuania
£14,900
Macedonia
£8,700
Poland (excluding Warsaw)
£10,300 to £17,200
Romania (excluding Bucharest)
£8,800 to £12,900
Slovakia (excluding Bratislava)
£12,100 to £16,700
So every region in Eastern Europe outside the capital cities had a lower GDP per capita than Lincolnshire.0 -
http://election2015.ifs.org.uk/uploads/images/election_graphs/nhs_fig1.jpgSouthamObserver said:
Spending on the NHS was increased significantly.HYUFD said:
Spending in the first Blair government was lower than under the Major government and significantly lower than it is even now, I did not notice the NHS collapsing thenSouthamObserver said:
Err, no it wasn't. Public services were not cut by the last Labour government, which also took us into the social chapter.Alanbrooke said:
err that was Gordonomics for 13 years and you voted for more as Mandy said to get filthy richSouthamObserver said:
Yep,else entirely, but it is coming.OllyT said:
Every time they buy a 50 million quid crash pad - they pay stamp duty.MarqueeMark said:
Good luck with that - how many of the cuer all along.OllyT said:
:MarqueeMark said:
Seriously, that is your "vision" for a sustainable economic model for post-Brexit Britain? God help us.Gardenwalker said:
As Hammond says, we will need to regain competitiveness. The only way to do that is to reduce taxation. In turn this implies further cuts in government spending.ake their latest lady off to the shops.Gallowgate said:
Why must our welfare system change if we have 'hard' Brexit?Gardenwalker said:It's a fair and clear appraisal from Hammond.
He continues to impress, or perhaps is flattered by comparison with his cabinet colleagues.
If we do indeed have a hard Brexit, with the economic dislocation Hammond implies, what is going to give? The country did not vote Brexit in order to dismantle the social welfare system, but logic says it must follow.
See also, Trump's emerging economic policy.
Do all the stuff where we'll no longer need to go to Brussels to ask for permission.
Every time they buy another McLaren or Ferrari supercar - they pay VAT.
A few more nurses get paid for every time they t
why the sudden change of mind ?
The truth is that spending on the NHS has increased, under every government. The only pauses in the upward climb have been related to various recessions, where the advance just stopped for a bit.0 -
That sounds entirely sensible. Whether or not sense prevails is, of course, a moot point.John_M said:I urge everyone to read Hammond's remarks in Die Welt. I think he summarises the views of many moderate Leavers and Remainers very well. Personally, I've always wanted the closest possible relationship with the EU sans the element of political integration.
From a broader perspective, Hammond is acting sensibly by declaring at the outset that Britain is prepared to walk away from a poor deal. If David Cameron hadn't been so transparently committed to staying in the EU come what may, then his useless renegotiation might've achieved something substantial - and we might well not be having any of these deliberations.0 -
Interesting that some of those who criticised Cameron for his "PR" approach to Government are cheering Tezza for Government by press release.
She has briefed a speech which isn't due till Tuesday, and briefed a "market correction" in advance.
How big a correction will it be before she changes the speech?0 -
No.rcs1000 said:
Switzerland is in the EMA, no?0 -
Yes, so the really significant rise in NHS spending rose after 2004, from 1997 to 2001 it rose at the same rate as Major and Clarke were spending. When the Tories left office in 1997 public spending was 38% of gdp, by 2000 that had fallen to 35%SouthamObserver said:
http://www.economicshelp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/uk-real-spending-per-capita.pngHYUFD said:
Not really until 2004, from 1997-2001 Blair and Brown spent less than Major and Clarke hadSouthamObserver said:
Spending on the NHS was increased significantly.HYUFD said:
Spending in the first Blair government was lower than collapsing thenSouthamObserver said:
Err, no it wasn't. Public services were not cut by the last Labour government, which also took us into the social chapter.Alanbrooke said:
err that was Gordonomics for 13 years and you voted for more as Mandy said to get filthy richSouthamObserver said:
Yep,else entirely, but it is coming.OllyT said:
Seriously, that is your "vision" for a sustainable economic model for post-Brexit Britain? God help us.MarqueeMark said:
Every time they buy a 50 million quid crash pad - they pay stamp duty.OllyT said:
Good luck with that - how many of the cuer all along.MarqueeMark said:
But UK.Gardenwalker said:
As Hammond says, we will need topolicy.Gallowgate said:
Why must our welfare system change if we have 'hard' Brexit?Gardenwalker said:It's a fair and clear appraisal from Hammond.
He continues to impress, or perhaps is flattered by comparison with his cabinet colleagues.
If we do indeed have a hard Brexit, with the economic dislocation Hammond implies, what is going to give? The country did not vote Brexit in order to dismantle the social welfare system, but logic says it must follow.
Want tax rates for the first 10 years.
Do all the stuff where we'll no longer need to go to Brussels to ask for permission.
Every time they buy another McLaren or Ferrari supercar - they pay VAT.
A few more nurses get paid for every time they take their latest lady off to the shops.
why the sudden change of mind ?
http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/spending_chart_1990_2000UKp_16c1li011mcn_F0t_UK_Public_Spending_As_Percent_Of_GDP0 -
Not much needed in terms of depreciation to put the Baltics, and Hapsburg Austian empire above Lincs. If we look at the worst bits of Lincs (such as Gainsborough or Skegness) then the A8 look attractive.rcs1000 said:
It's amazing how close some of those countries are to Lincolnshire already.another_richard said:European regions by GDP per capita:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_regions_by_GDP
English Midlands and North
£19,100 Lincolnshire to £28,800 Cheshire
Bulgaria
£6,500 to £8,700
Croatia
£14,200 to £14,500
Czech Republic (excluding Prague)
£15,400 to £17,500
Estonia
£15,500
Hungary (excluding Budapest)
£9,700 to £15,900
Latvia
£13,100
Lithuania
£14,900
Macedonia
£8,700
Poland (excluding Warsaw)
£10,300 to £17,200
Romania (excluding Bucharest)
£8,800 to £12,900
Slovakia (excluding Bratislava)
£12,100 to £16,700
So every region in Eastern Europe outside the capital cities had a lower GDP per capita than Lincolnshire.0 -
"This fake news getting out of hand now. Just been reported that England scored 350 for 7 in first ODI. Unbelievable. "
John: #bbccricket0 -
Yes, but as I said the last Labour government did not cut public spending and did spend more on the NHS.HYUFD said:
Yes, so the really significant rise in NHS spending rose after 2004, from 1997 to 2001 it rose at the same rate as Major and Clarke were spending. When the Tories left office in 1997 public spending was 38% of gdp, by 2000 that had fallen to 35%SouthamObserver said:
http://www.economicshelp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/uk-real-spending-per-capita.pngHYUFD said:
Not really until 2004, from 1997-2001 Blair and Brown spent less than Major and Clarke hadSouthamObserver said:
Spending on the NHS was increased significantly.HYUFD said:
Spending in the first Blair government was lower than collapsing thenSouthamObserver said:
Err, no it wasn't. Public services were not cut by the last Labour government, which also took us into the social chapter.Alanbrooke said:
err that was Gordonomics for 13 years and you voted for more as Mandy said to get filthy richSouthamObserver said:
Yep,else entirely, but it is coming.OllyT said:
Seriously, that is your "vision" for a sustainable economic model for post-Brexit Britain? God help us.MarqueeMark said:
Every time they buy a 50 million quid crash pad - they pay stamp duty.OllyT said:
Good luck with that - how many of the cuer all along.MarqueeMark said:
But UK.Gardenwalker said:
As Hammond says, we will need topolicy.Gallowgate said:
Why must our welfare system change if we have 'hard' Brexit?Gardenwalker said:It's a fair and clear appraisal from Hammond.
He continues to impress, or perhaps is flattered by comparison with his cabinet colleagues.
If we do indeed have a hard Brexit, with the economic dislocation Hammond implies, what is going to give? The country did not vote Brexit in order to dismantle the social welfare system, but logic says it must follow.
Want tax rates for the first 10 years.
Do all the stuff where we'll no longer need to go to Brussels to ask for permission.
Every time they buy another McLaren or Ferrari supercar - they pay VAT.
A few more nurses get paid for every time they take their latest lady off to the shops.
why the sudden change of mind ?
http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/spending_chart_1990_2000UKp_16c1li011mcn_F0t_UK_Public_Spending_As_Percent_Of_GDP
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Yes, Ken Clarke famously said that even he wouldn't have kept to his spending plans from 1997-2001. Labour then launched a misdirected rush to make up for lost time.HYUFD said:
Yes, so the really significant rise in NHS spending rose after 2004, from 1997 to 2001 it rose at the same rate as Major and Clarke were spending. When the Tories left office in 1997 public spending was 38% of gdp, by 2000 that had fallen to 35%SouthamObserver said:
http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/spending_chart_1990_2000UKp_16c1li011mcn_F0t_UK_Public_Spending_As_Percent_Of_GDP0 -
williamglenn said:
No.rcs1000 said:
Switzerland is in the EMA, no?
EMA protects public and animal health in 28 EU Member States, as well as the countries of the European Economic Area, by ensuring that all medicines available on the EU market are safe, effective and of high quality.
http://www.ema.europa.eu/ema/index.jsp?curl=pages/about_us/document_listing/document_listing_000426.jsp&mid=
Not just the EU.
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Also, those are 2013 numbers, Sterling has depreciated substantially, and many of those countries have seen good growth in the last three years. So, bits of the A8 may have overtaken Lincolnshire already.foxinsoxuk said:
Not much needed in terms of depreciation to put the Baltics, and Hapsburg Austian empire above Lincs. If we look at the worst bits of Lincs (such as Gainsborough or Skegness) then the A8 look attractive.rcs1000 said:
It's amazing how close some of those countries are to Lincolnshire already.another_richard said:European regions by GDP per capita:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_regions_by_GDP
English Midlands and North
£19,100 Lincolnshire to £28,800 Cheshire
Bulgaria
£6,500 to £8,700
Croatia
£14,200 to £14,500
Czech Republic (excluding Prague)
£15,400 to £17,500
Estonia
£15,500
Hungary (excluding Budapest)
£9,700 to £15,900
Latvia
£13,100
Lithuania
£14,900
Macedonia
£8,700
Poland (excluding Warsaw)
£10,300 to £17,200
Romania (excluding Bucharest)
£8,800 to £12,900
Slovakia (excluding Bratislava)
£12,100 to £16,700
So every region in Eastern Europe outside the capital cities had a lower GDP per capita than Lincolnshire.0 -
Switzerland just caved on immigration to the EU, so that ship has sadly sailed.MaxPB said:
Would the EMA be worth anything without Switzerland or the UK? Tbh with both nations not in the EEA a more aggressive stance might be warranted, if the Swiss were on board.rcs1000 said:Switzerland is in the EMA, no?
0 -
If you looked at West Virginia or parts of East Germany, or Sicily you would likely see a similar result if you compare one of the poorest parts of a western nationrcs1000 said:
It's amazing how close some of those countries are to Lincolnshire already.another_richard said:European regions by GDP per capita:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_regions_by_GDP
English Midlands and North
£19,100 Lincolnshire to £28,800 Cheshire
Bulgaria
£6,500 to £8,700
Croatia
£14,200 to £14,500
Czech Republic (excluding Prague)
£15,400 to £17,500
Estonia
£15,500
Hungary (excluding Budapest)
£9,700 to £15,900
Latvia
£13,100
Lithuania
£14,900
Macedonia
£8,700
Poland (excluding Warsaw)
£10,300 to £17,200
Romania (excluding Bucharest)
£8,800 to £12,900
Slovakia (excluding Bratislava)
£12,100 to £16,700
So every region in Eastern Europe outside the capital cities had a lower GDP per capita than Lincolnshire.0 -
Agree; I was lucky to retire in 2003.foxinsoxuk said:
I regard that as the best period in my life in the NHS, with the internal market out of favour and before Milburn, Ried and Hewitt started trashing it.HYUFD said:
Not really until 2004, from 1997-2001 Blair and Brown spent less than Major and Clarke hadSouthamObserver said:
Spending on the NHS was increased significantly.HYUFD said:
Spending in the first Blair government was lower than under the Major government and significantly lower than it is even now, I did not notice the NHS collapsing thenSouthamObserver said:
Err, no it wasn't. Public services were not cut by the last Labour government, which also took us into the social chapter.Alanbrooke said:
err that was Gordonomics for 13 years and you voted for more as Mandy said to get filthy richSouthamObserver said:
Yep,else entirely, but it is coming.OllyT said:
Seriously, that is your "vision" for a sustainable economic model for post-Brexit Britain? God help us.MarqueeMark said:
Every time they buy a 50 million quid crash pad - they pay stamp duty.OllyT said:
Good luck with that - how many of the cuer all along.MarqueeMark said:
But we don't have to reduce taxation. We can increase the number of .Gardenwalker said:
As Hammond says, we will need to regain competitiveness. The only way to do that is to reduce taxation. In turn this implies further cuts in government spending.Gallowgate said:
Why must our welfare system change if we have 'hard' Brexit?Gardenwalker said:It's a fair and clear appraisal from Hammond.
He continues to impress, or perhaps is flattered by comparison with his cabinet colleagues.
If we do indeed have a hard Brexit, with the economic dislocation Hammond implies, what is going to give? The country did not vote Brexit in order to dismantle the social welfare system, but logic says it must follow.
See also, Trump's emerging economic policy.
Every time they buy another McLaren or Ferrari supercar - they pay VAT.
A few more nurses get paid for every time they take their latest lady off to the shops.
why the sudden change of mind ?
While there was more money later, the targets, re-introduction of the purchaser provider split and the deprofessionalisation of the workforce made life less good.0 -
We are leaving the Single Market/EEA. Get with it!MarkHopkins said:williamglenn said:
No.rcs1000 said:
Switzerland is in the EMA, no?
EMA protects public and animal health in 28 EU Member States, as well as the countries of the European Economic Area, by ensuring that all medicines available on the EU market are safe, effective and of high quality.
http://www.ema.europa.eu/ema/index.jsp?curl=pages/about_us/document_listing/document_listing_000426.jsp&mid=
Not just the EU.
Switzerland is outside the EEA and while Swissmedic has deals with the EMA, they are not part of the system.
http://www.ema.europa.eu/ema/index.jsp?curl=pages/partners_and_networks/document_listing/document_listing_000262.jsp0 -
nielh said:
I agree with your comments but think we have got off to a bad start particularly with idiots like boris johnson and liam fox alienating moderate european opinion. The approach may and hammond now signalling is much better and consistent with what many eurosceptic remainers like myself think.rcs1000 said:
That's very much my view too. Like it or not, it is a massive market that is physically very close to us. We want our success to be a beacon to others who don't believe in the ultimate creation of the United States of Europe, but at the same time, they aren't our enemies. They are people who largely share our values, and with whom our histories are tied over thousands of years.John_M said:I urge everyone to read Hammond's remarks in Die Welt. I think he summarises the views of many moderate Leavers and Remainers very well. Personally, I've always wanted the closest possible relationship with the EU sans the element of political integration.
I think the idea that there is an easy Anglosphere trading bloc that we can create, so we can simply forget and ignore the Europeans, is bonkers. Yes, we will get FTAs with Australia, Canada* and NZ. We might even join NAFTA (although that comes with some serious sovereignty issues of its own, and the Trump plans to tax the *profits* on anyone importing to the US, irrespective of Free Trade Agreements, dramatically limits its attractiveness). But distance and timezones matter, and the truth is that there are plenty of EU schemes - such as Open Skies - that we will probably want to be involved in going forward.
Before the referendum, I said we should Leave, but not in anger. The EU just isn't for us. Based on my experience, going into negotiations and saying "we love you, this structure just isn't for us" is far more likely to be productive than willy waving.
* The largest of those, of course, already has an FTA with the EU, and a deal with New Zealand is currently being negotiated. So, our gains are likely to be modest from these compared to being in the EU.
I also think may is correct that we should move on from leave and remain, and particularly that leavers should be more magnaminous in victory. It is a victory beyond their wildest dreams and the government is implementing the decision. Chill the fuck out.
Peace through strength.
0 -
Indeed it is.CornishBlue said:
Taking into account work-life balance, affordability of housing (to rent or to buy), reliability etc of commuting, etc etc... I'd say life for many north of Watford Gap is better than life for many south of it.another_richard said:
So everywhere from Northamptonshire to Northumberland has 'a very poor standard of living with East Europe the best comparator'.Gardenwalker said:
Certainly.another_richard said:
But it shows that the wealth of a 'country' can vary significantly depending upon when it is independent.Gardenwalker said:
But it wasn't so it didn't, and if it were, it wouldn't.another_richard said:
If the North East was a country it would have had a significant part of the UK's North Sea Oil.Gardenwalker said:
Milford is the economic father of Brexit and I seem to recall he basically advocates closing down north of the Watford Gap.Scott_P said:
Also curious that the Brexiteers now cheering the "Singapore" option have been strangely quiet on the fact that it would be a City of London only scheme.OllyT said:Good luck with that - how many of the current oligarchs and global companies pay any significant tax in the UK now. So if we are not going to reduce taxation how are we going to get the Amazons, Googles and Starbucks of this world to pay a fair share of tax. One hint of increasing their tax contributions and most will be off and how ever low your corporation tax someone will beat it. This is a race to that bottom that will have the global corporations rubbing their hands and the poor WWC saps in Sunderland and Hartlepool wondering where it all went wrong and realise they were just lobby fodder all along.
A trade war to boost the city will not help the Nissan workers.
It makes sense from an ultra-free market perspective. We are literally subsidising non productivity.
If the North East was a country, it would have a lower standard of living than the Czech Republic.
Likewise an independent North East would probably have been a very wealthy country in the 19th century.
But my main point is that North of the Watford Gap (with the exception of parts of Scotland), the U.K. has a very poor standard of living with East Europe the best comparator.
And that one strand of Brexit thinking is to basically just shut up shop there.
Have you ever been north of the Watford Gap ?
And perhaps you might like to explain why if the Midlands and North are such an economic wasteland that so many economic migrants from Eastern Europe have moved there.0 -
Not entirely, it managed to get a rule that local Swiss workers could be given priority for jobsrcs1000 said:
Switzerland just caved on immigration to the EU, so that ship has sadly sailed.MaxPB said:
Would the EMA be worth anything without Switzerland or the UK? Tbh with both nations not in the EEA a more aggressive stance might be warranted, if the Swiss were on board.rcs1000 said:Switzerland is in the EMA, no?
0 -
Because of the wealth created in the SE.another_richard said:
Indeed it is.CornishBlue said:
Taking into account work-life balance, affordability of housing (to rent or to buy), reliability etc of commuting, etc etc... I'd say life for many north of Watford Gap is better than life for many south of it.another_richard said:
So comparator'.Gardenwalker said:
Certainly.another_richard said:
But it shows that the wealth of a 'country' can vary significantly depending upon when it is independent.Gardenwalker said:
But it wasn't so it didn't, and if it were, it wouldn't.another_richard said:
If the North East was a country it would have had a significant part of the UK's North Sea Oil.Gardenwalker said:
Milford is the economic father of Brexit and I seem to recall he basically advocates closing down north of the Watford Gap.Scott_P said:
Also curious that the Brexiteers now cheering the "Singapore" option have been strangely quiet on the fact that it would be a City of London only scheme.OllyT said:Good luck with that - how many of the current oligarchs and global companies pay any significant tax in the UK now. So if we are not going to reduce taxation how are we going to get the Amazons, Googles and Starbucks of this world to pay a fair share of tax. One hint of increasing their tax contributions and most will be off and how ever low your corporation tax someone will beat it. This is a race to that bottom that will have the global corporations rubbing their hands and the poor WWC saps in Sunderland and Hartlepool wondering where it all went wrong and realise they were just lobby fodder all along.
A trade war to boost the city will not help the Nissan workers.
It makes sense from an ultra-free market perspective. We are literally subsidising non productivity.
If the North East was a country, it would have a lower standard of living than the Czech Republic.
Likewise an independent North East would probably have been a very wealthy country in the 19th century.
But comparator.
And that one strand of Brexit thinking is to basically just shut up shop there.
Have you ever been north of the Watford Gap ?
And perhaps you might like to explain why if the Midlands and North are such an economic wasteland that so many economic migrants from Eastern Europe have moved there.
0 -
Switzerland is not officially a member of the EMA (see: http://www.ema.europa.eu/ema/index.jsp?curl=pages/partners_and_networks/document_listing/document_listing_000262.jsp&mid=WC0b01ac058009b148), but does have very close links.MarkHopkins said:williamglenn said:
No.rcs1000 said:
Switzerland is in the EMA, no?
EMA protects public and animal health in 28 EU Member States, as well as the countries of the European Economic Area, by ensuring that all medicines available on the EU market are safe, effective and of high quality.
http://www.ema.europa.eu/ema/index.jsp?curl=pages/about_us/document_listing/document_listing_000426.jsp&mid=
Not just the EU.0 -
From 1997 to 2001 it did effectively cut public spending in percentage of gdp termsSouthamObserver said:
Yes, but as I said the last Labour government did not cut public spending and did spend more on the NHS.HYUFD said:
Yes, so the reallySouthamObserver said:
http://www.economicshelp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/uk-real-spending-per-capita.pngHYUFD said:
Not really until 2004, from 1997-2001 Blair and Brown spent less than Major and Clarke hadSouthamObserver said:
Spending on the NHS was increased significantly.HYUFD said:
Spending in the first Blair government was lower than collapsing thenSouthamObserver said:
Err, no it wasn't. Public services were not cut by the last Labour government, which also took us into the social chapter.Alanbrooke said:
err that was Gordonomics for 13 years and you voted for more as Mandy said to get filthy richSouthamObserver said:
Yep,else entirely, but it is coming.OllyT said:
Seriously, that is your "vision" for a sustainable economic model for post-Brexit Britain? God help us.MarqueeMark said:
Every time they buy a 50 million quid crash pad - they pay stamp duty.OllyT said:
Good luck with that - how many of the cuer all along.MarqueeMark said:
But UK.Gardenwalker said:
As Hammond says, we will need topolicy.Gallowgate said:
Why must our welfare system change if we have 'hard' Brexit?Gardenwalker said:It's a fair and clear appraisal from Hammond.
He continues to impress, or perhaps is flattered by comparison with his cabinet colleagues.
If we do indeed have a hard Brexit, with the economic dislocation Hammond implies, what is going to give? The country did not vote Brexit in order to dismantle the social welfare system, but logic says it must follow.
Want tax rates for the first 10 years.
Do all the stuff where we'll no longer need to go to Brussels to ask for permission.
Every time they buy another McLaren or Ferrari supercar - they pay VAT.
A few more nurses get paid for every time they take their latest lady off to the shops.
why the sudden change of mind ?0 -
And so is life west of Exeter.another_richard said:
Indeed it is.CornishBlue said:
Taking into account work-life balance, affordability of housing (to rent or to buy), reliability etc of commuting, etc etc... I'd say life for many north of Watford Gap is better than life for many south of it.another_richard said:
So everywhere from Northamptonshire to Northumberland has 'a very poor standard of living with East Europe the best comparator'.Gardenwalker said:
Certainly.another_richard said:
But it shows that the wealth of a 'country' can vary significantly depending upon when it is independent.Gardenwalker said:
But it wasn't so it didn't, and if it were, it wouldn't.another_richard said:
If the North East was a country it would have had a significant part of the UK's North Sea Oil.Gardenwalker said:
Milford is the economic father of Brexit and I seem to recall he closing down north of the Watford Gap.Scott_P said:
Also curious that the Brexiteers now cheering the "Singapore" option have been strangely quiet on the fact that it would be a City of London only scheme.OllyT said:Good luck with that - how many of the current oligarchs and global companies pay any significant tax in the UK now. So if we are not going to reduce taxation how are we going to get the Amazons, Googles and Starbucks of this world to pay a fair share of tax. One hint of increasing their tax contributions and most will be off and how ever low your corporation tax someone will beat it. This is a race to that bottom that will have the global corporations rubbing their hands and the poor WWC saps in Sunderland and Hartlepool wondering where it all went wrong and realise they were just lobby fodder all along.
A trade war to boost the city will not help the Nissan workers.
It makes sense from an ultra-free market perspective. We are literally subsidising non productivity.
If the North East was a country, it would have a lower standard of living than the Czech Republic.
Likewise an independent North East would probably have been a very wealthy country in the 19th century.
But my main point is that North of the Watford Gap (with the exception of parts of Scotland), the U.K. has a very poor standard of living with East Europe the best comparator.
And that one strand of Brexit thinking is to basically just shut up shop there.
Have you ever been north of the Watford Gap ?
And perhaps you might like to explain why if the Midlands and North are such an economic wasteland that so many economic migrants from Eastern Europe have moved there.0 -
Swiss job centres are allowed to put Swiss citizens forward for jobs first. I think that's just a fig leaf, don't you?HYUFD said:
Not entirely, it managed to get a rule that local Swiss workers could be given priority for jobsrcs1000 said:
Switzerland just caved on immigration to the EU, so that ship has sadly sailed.MaxPB said:
Would the EMA be worth anything without Switzerland or the UK? Tbh with both nations not in the EEA a more aggressive stance might be warranted, if the Swiss were on board.rcs1000 said:Switzerland is in the EMA, no?
Ultimately, any EU citizen can go to Switzerland, without a job, and get one.
0 -
Incidentally, for those wondering I am working on putting together the print edition of Kingdom Asunder, but it's surprisingly much more work than the two e-book editions. Trying to resolve stupid marginal (literally) errors and so on. And CreateSpace only accepting full covers as PDFs is irksome (may have resolved that, unsure). Tried going through Lulu initially, but a paperback would've cost £18, so giving CreateSpace a look.-1
-
But specifically to the EMA/pharma industry, the UK and Switzerland have the lion's share of European industry, maybe enough to dictate terms to the EU. Might be worth looking into.rcs1000 said:
Switzerland just caved on immigration to the EU, so that ship has sadly sailed.MaxPB said:
Would the EMA be worth anything without Switzerland or the UK? Tbh with both nations not in the EEA a more aggressive stance might be warranted, if the Swiss were on board.rcs1000 said:Switzerland is in the EMA, no?
0 -
Though migration is not driven by GDP so much as opportunity, median income by PPP probably would be a better indicator.rcs1000 said:
It's amazing how close some of those countries are to Lincolnshire already.another_richard said:European regions by GDP per capita:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_regions_by_GDP
English Midlands and North
£19,100 Lincolnshire to £28,800 Cheshire
Bulgaria
£6,500 to £8,700
Croatia
£14,200 to £14,500
Czech Republic (excluding Prague)
£15,400 to £17,500
Estonia
£15,500
Hungary (excluding Budapest)
£9,700 to £15,900
Latvia
£13,100
Lithuania
£14,900
Macedonia
£8,700
Poland (excluding Warsaw)
£10,300 to £17,200
Romania (excluding Bucharest)
£8,800 to £12,900
Slovakia (excluding Bratislava)
£12,100 to £16,700
So every region in Eastern Europe outside the capital cities had a lower GDP per capita than Lincolnshire.
So we do get Romanian unskilled migration but also graduate migration.
In terms of prole-hate the dominant narrative is hatred of prole migrants, even kippers seem keen on middle class migrants.0 -
If it's so good why have the Baltic states had a demographic collapse in the last 20 years ?foxinsoxuk said:
Not much needed in terms of depreciation to put the Baltics, and Hapsburg Austian empire above Lincs. If we look at the worst bits of Lincs (such as Gainsborough or Skegness) then the A8 look attractive.rcs1000 said:
It's amazing how close some of those countries are to Lincolnshire already.another_richard said:European regions by GDP per capita:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_regions_by_GDP
English Midlands and North
£19,100 Lincolnshire to £28,800 Cheshire
Bulgaria
£6,500 to £8,700
Croatia
£14,200 to £14,500
Czech Republic (excluding Prague)
£15,400 to £17,500
Estonia
£15,500
Hungary (excluding Budapest)
£9,700 to £15,900
Latvia
£13,100
Lithuania
£14,900
Macedonia
£8,700
Poland (excluding Warsaw)
£10,300 to £17,200
Romania (excluding Bucharest)
£8,800 to £12,900
Slovakia (excluding Bratislava)
£12,100 to £16,700
So every region in Eastern Europe outside the capital cities had a lower GDP per capita than Lincolnshire.
Lithuania for example has lost about a quarter of it's people
In Northern Ireland Lithuanian is the third most spoken language after english and polish, and thats in the grimmest part of the UK. People actually emigrate to Lurgan and Dungannon.0 -
"The Agency is responsible for the scientific evaluation, supervision and safety monitoring of medicines developed by pharmaceutical companies for use in the EU."MaxPB said:
Would the EMA be worth anything without Switzerland or the UK? Tbh with both nations not in the EEA a more aggressive stance might be warranted, if the Swiss were on board.rcs1000 said:Switzerland is in the EMA, no?
So the answer is yes. It's basically the European FDA.
0 -
Yes, economically the first Blair government was the most rightwing of any postwar UK government apart from the final Thatcher administrationwilliamglenn said:
Yes, Ken Clarke famously said that even he wouldn't have kept to his spending plans from 1997-2001. Labour then launched a misdirected rush to make up for lost time.HYUFD said:
Yes, so the really significant rise in NHS spending rose after 2004, from 1997 to 2001 it rose at the same rate as Major and Clarke were spending. When the Tories left office in 1997 public spending was 38% of gdp, by 2000 that had fallen to 35%SouthamObserver said:
http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/spending_chart_1990_2000UKp_16c1li011mcn_F0t_UK_Public_Spending_As_Percent_Of_GDP0 -
Lol - you ok hun?SouthamObserver said:
No, prole hatred has been with us since the year dot and has manifested itself in a variety of ways over the centuries, from slavery through to feudalism, horrific working conditions, non access to education and social security, and so on. The idea that the right are happy with working class people going on strike for better working conditions and pay is laughable, as is the idea is interested in ensuring all proles have access to decent housing, transport facilities and affordable heating. The right is only interested in the proles when it wants to win an election or a referendum, and then its modus operandi is to identify one set of proles to paint as hate figures in order to encourage another set to vote in a certain way. The right sees proles as welfare junkies and the enemy within, and holds then in total contempt. And now the right wants to cut the public services that the proles rely on and reduce their job security.Malmesbury said:
Prole hatred bubbled to the surface when it became clear that the Left became progressive. Since in the game of Progressive Trumps, Foreigners beat Locals, the result was inevitable.Alanbrooke said:
The bastards and find people with some commitment to their own country.Gardenwalker said:
Yes. "technology".Dromedary said:malcolmg said:
Equally funny is he spouts it from ItalyCornishBlue said:
Wow. revolt.tyson said:The part of our workforce that is educated, literate and motivated. i.e. European migrants will be precluded or just hacked off from coming here, and our productivity and capital investment is shit. Tax cuts will just make our rich elites wealthier.
To use John M's lovely metaphor.......we'll be left with the square root of fuck all.....
Many well-heeled.
It is further encouraged by the fact that hating groups has been outlawed in ProgressiveLand - without removing the mindset of hating "out groups". Since it is impossible to be racist against white people, it follows that hating groups of them is OK. So it is an outlet for those who need to express their hatred, but feel socially constrained not to burn crosses on the lawns of their black neighbours.
Add in the fact that by loving all things foreign (and hating all things local), you can pretend to be educated, sophisticated etc.....
I wonder if Tyson has ever asked a working class Italian his/her opinion of the Roma...
See how easy that was?0 -
The EU has the market.MaxPB said:
But specifically to the EMA/pharma industry, the UK and Switzerland have the lion's share of European industry, maybe enough to dictate terms to the EU. Might be worth looking into.rcs1000 said:
Switzerland just caved on immigration to the EU, so that ship has sadly sailed.MaxPB said:
Would the EMA be worth anything without Switzerland or the UK? Tbh with both nations not in the EEA a more aggressive stance might be warranted, if the Swiss were on board.rcs1000 said:Switzerland is in the EMA, no?
0 -
More than Irish? Whence come those figures?Alanbrooke said:
If it's so good why have the Baltic states had a demographic collapse in the last 20 years ?foxinsoxuk said:
Not much needed in terms of depreciation to put the Baltics, and Hapsburg Austian empire above Lincs. If we look at the worst bits of Lincs (such as Gainsborough or Skegness) then the A8 look attractive.rcs1000 said:
It's amazing how close some of those countries are to Lincolnshire already.another_richard said:European regions by GDP per capita:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_regions_by_GDP
English Midlands and North
£19,100 Lincolnshire to £28,800 Cheshire
Bulgaria
£6,500 to £8,700
Croatia
£14,200 to £14,500
Czech Republic (excluding Prague)
£15,400 to £17,500
Estonia
£15,500
Hungary (excluding Budapest)
£9,700 to £15,900
Latvia
£13,100
Lithuania
£14,900
Macedonia
£8,700
Poland (excluding Warsaw)
£10,300 to £17,200
Romania (excluding Bucharest)
£8,800 to £12,900
Slovakia (excluding Bratislava)
£12,100 to £16,700
So every region in Eastern Europe outside the capital cities had a lower GDP per capita than Lincolnshire.
Lithuania for example has lost about a quarter of it's people
In Northern Ireland Lithuanian is the third most spoken language after english and polish, and thats in the grimmest part of the UK. People actually emigrate to Lurgan and Dungannon.0 -
Lincolnshire is not an affluent area and there are some relatively affluent parts of Eastern Europe.rcs1000 said:
It's amazing how close some of those countries are to Lincolnshire already.another_richard said:European regions by GDP per capita:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_regions_by_GDP
English Midlands and North
£19,100 Lincolnshire to £28,800 Cheshire
Bulgaria
£6,500 to £8,700
Croatia
£14,200 to £14,500
Czech Republic (excluding Prague)
£15,400 to £17,500
Estonia
£15,500
Hungary (excluding Budapest)
£9,700 to £15,900
Latvia
£13,100
Lithuania
£14,900
Macedonia
£8,700
Poland (excluding Warsaw)
£10,300 to £17,200
Romania (excluding Bucharest)
£8,800 to £12,900
Slovakia (excluding Bratislava)
£12,100 to £16,700
So every region in Eastern Europe outside the capital cities had a lower GDP per capita than Lincolnshire.
That does help to explain why an poor area with high Eastern European immigration as Lincolnshire is voted so strongly Leave.0 -
I suspect mostly to median income and opportunity, as I posted below. Brexit may well help export the jobs that the Lituanians are currently doing here. Easier in sectors like farming than social care.Alanbrooke said:
If it's so good why have the Baltic states had a demographic collapse in the last 20 years ?foxinsoxuk said:
Not much needed in terms of depreciation to put the Baltics, and Hapsburg Austian empire above Lincs. If we look at the worst bits of Lincs (such as Gainsborough or Skegness) then the A8 look attractive.rcs1000 said:
It's amazing how close some of those countries are to Lincolnshire already.another_richard said:European regions by GDP per capita:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_regions_by_GDP
English Midlands and North
£19,100 Lincolnshire to £28,800 Cheshire
Bulgaria
£6,500 to £8,700
Croatia
£14,200 to £14,500
Czech Republic (excluding Prague)
£15,400 to £17,500
Estonia
£15,500
Hungary (excluding Budapest)
£9,700 to £15,900
Latvia
£13,100
Lithuania
£14,900
Macedonia
£8,700
Poland (excluding Warsaw)
£10,300 to £17,200
Romania (excluding Bucharest)
£8,800 to £12,900
Slovakia (excluding Bratislava)
£12,100 to £16,700
So every region in Eastern Europe outside the capital cities had a lower GDP per capita than Lincolnshire.
Lithuania for example has lost about a quarter of it's people
In Northern Ireland Lithuanian is the third most spoken language after english and polish, and thats in the grimmest part of the UK. People actually emigrate to Lurgan and Dungannon.0 -
SouthamObserver said:
"The Agency is responsible for the scientific evaluation, supervision and safety monitoring of medicines developed by pharmaceutical companies for use in the EU."MaxPB said:
Would the EMA be worth anything without Switzerland or the UK? Tbh with both nations not in the EEA a more aggressive stance might be warranted, if the Swiss were on board.rcs1000 said:Switzerland is in the EMA, no?
So the answer is yes. It's basically the European FDA.
It could remain the European FDA, and just include EU, UK, and CH.
0 -
rcs1000 said:
Also, those are 2013 numbers, Sterling has depreciated substantially, and many of those countries have seen good growth in the last three years. So, bits of the A8 may have overtaken Lincolnshire already.foxinsoxuk said:
Not much needed in terms of depreciation to put the Baltics, and Hapsburg Austian empire above Lincs. If we look at the worst bits of Lincs (such as Gainsborough or Skegness) then the A8 look attractive.rcs1000 said:
It's amazing how close some of those countries are to Lincolnshire already.another_richard said:European regions by GDP per capita:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_regions_by_GDP
English Midlands and North
£19,100 Lincolnshire to £28,800 Cheshire
Bulgaria
£6,500 to £8,700
Croatia
£14,200 to £14,500
Czech Republic (excluding Prague)
£15,400 to £17,500
Estonia
£15,500
Hungary (excluding Budapest)
£9,700 to £15,900
Latvia
£13,100
Lithuania
£14,900
Macedonia
£8,700
Poland (excluding Warsaw)
£10,300 to £17,200
Romania (excluding Bucharest)
£8,800 to £12,900
Slovakia (excluding Bratislava)
£12,100 to £16,700
So every region in Eastern Europe outside the capital cities had a lower GDP per capita than Lincolnshire.
An independent Wales would be the 5th. poorest country in the EU.
Estonia has managed to set up online government; their broadband must be a lot better than mine.0 -
It was the social attitudes that saved it. Pity Blair didn’t take the PR option while he was about it.HYUFD said:
Yes, economically the first Blair government was the most rightwing of any postwar UK government apart from the final Thatcher administrationwilliamglenn said:
Yes, Ken Clarke famously said that even he wouldn't have kept to his spending plans from 1997-2001. Labour then launched a misdirected rush to make up for lost time.HYUFD said:
Yes, so the really significant rise in NHS spending rose after 2004, from 1997 to 2001 it rose at the same rate as Major and Clarke were spending. When the Tories left office in 1997 public spending was 38% of gdp, by 2000 that had fallen to 35%SouthamObserver said:
http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/spending_chart_1990_2000UKp_16c1li011mcn_F0t_UK_Public_Spending_As_Percent_Of_GDP0 -
It's a significant share, but even on the most flattering measure of R&D spend, France and Germany invest more than the UK and Switzerland - http://www.efpia.eu/uploads/Modules/Documents/the-pharmaceutical-industry-in-figures-2016.pdfMaxPB said:
But specifically to the EMA/pharma industry, the UK and Switzerland have the lion's share of European industry, maybe enough to dictate terms to the EU. Might be worth looking into.rcs1000 said:
Switzerland just caved on immigration to the EU, so that ship has sadly sailed.MaxPB said:
Would the EMA be worth anything without Switzerland or the UK? Tbh with both nations not in the EEA a more aggressive stance might be warranted, if the Swiss were on board.rcs1000 said:Switzerland is in the EMA, no?
0 -
Yep, I am absolutely fine - cheers. Like you, I am totally shielded from the public spending cuts and reductions in job security that are coming the UK's way over the coming years as the right instigates its race tot he bottom.felix said:
Lol - you ok hun?SouthamObserver said:
No, rely on and reduce their job security.Malmesbury said:
Prole hatred bubbled to the surface when it became clear that the Left became progressive. Since in the game of Progressive Trumps, Foreigners beat Locals, the result was inevitable.Alanbrooke said:
The bastards and find people with some commitment to their own country.Gardenwalker said:
Yes. "technology".Dromedary said:malcolmg said:
Equally funny is he spouts it from ItalyCornishBlue said:
Wow. revolt.tyson said:The part of our workforce that is educated, literate and motivated. i.e. European migrants will be precluded or just hacked off from coming here, and our productivity and capital investment is shit. Tax cuts will just make our rich elites wealthier.
To use John M's lovely metaphor.......we'll be left with the square root of fuck all.....
Many well-heeled.
It is further encouraged by the fact that hating groups has been outlawed in ProgressiveLand - without removing the mindset of hating "out groups". Since it is impossible to be racist against white people, it follows that hating groups of them is OK. So it is an outlet for those who need to express their hatred, but feel socially constrained not to burn crosses on the lawns of their black neighbours.
Add in the fact that by loving all things foreign (and hating all things local), you can pretend to be educated, sophisticated etc.....
I wonder if Tyson has ever asked a working class Italian his/her opinion of the Roma...
See how easy that was?
0 -
Why would they still want to come if as you think things are going to be so bad here?SouthamObserver said:
Yep, that is clearly the choice :-DMarqueeMark said:
If it is either 50,000 Commercially Important People taking up residence in the UK each year, or a random selection of 300,00 chancers happy to strap themselves to the underside of vehicles to evade our immigration laws - in the best scenario, to become waiters, in the worst, coming here to kill and maim in the name of their religion - then I know which side the British people are going to go for every time. Which doesn't make it a right wing Tory vision.SouthamObserver said:Yep, this is the right wing Tory vision. Oligarchs pushing up the price of property and taking advantage of a low regulation UK in which public services are cut to the bare minimum and job security is next to non-existent. To be fair, this has been pretty obvious from the get-go and people voted for it. Whether they will be happy with the reality is something else entirely, but it is coming.
It makes it what the voters want from their politicians.
But then, they wanted a Referendum on the EU. Which those enlightened liberal souls in Labour and the LibDems fought to prevent for 18 years. And right up to the last election.
Which they each badly lost.
I can certainly see how us pulling out of the EU is going to stop people strapping themselves to the underside of vehicles to evade our immigration laws.0 -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Northern_Ireland#cite_note-22OldKingCole said:
More than Irish? Whence come those figures?Alanbrooke said:If it's so good why have the Baltic states had a demographic collapse in the last 20 years ?
Lithuania for example has lost about a quarter of it's people
In Northern Ireland Lithuanian is the third most spoken language after english and polish, and thats in the grimmest part of the UK. People actually emigrate to Lurgan and Dungannon.
Although even Polish is only 1%, so presumably the numbers are very small.0 -
If its regulatory set-up was changed to allow non-EU member states to be a part of it and if we agreed to allowing European law to take precedence over UK law.MarkHopkins said:SouthamObserver said:
"The Agency is responsible for the scientific evaluation, supervision and safety monitoring of medicines developed by pharmaceutical companies for use in the EU."MaxPB said:
Would the EMA be worth anything without Switzerland or the UK? Tbh with both nations not in the EEA a more aggressive stance might be warranted, if the Swiss were on board.rcs1000 said:Switzerland is in the EMA, no?
So the answer is yes. It's basically the European FDA.
It could remain the European FDA, and just include EU, UK, and CH.
0 -
In the era of fluid gender, race and sexuality it is strange that many people who promote such ideas pigeon hole anyone who holds a view they disagree with as 'the right'0
-
@Alanbrooke
The Baltics are increasingly attractive to inward investment, and the fact that so many people speak English because they have spent time in the UK is a big part of that.
Genius Sports (the new name for Betgenius) has its largest non-UK office in Talinn.
I would expect lots of Estonians to return home in the next few years because the opportunities are great, and the cost of living low.0 -
They will not be bad compared to where they are coming from. EU migrants, of course, do not need to strap themselves to the underside of cars to come here.felix said:
Why would they still want to come if as you think things are going to be so bad here?SouthamObserver said:
Yep, that is clearly the choice :-DMarqueeMark said:
If it is either 50,000 Commercially Important People taking up residence in the UK each year, or a random selection of 300,00 chancers happy to strap themselves to the underside of vehicles to evade our immigration laws - in the best scenario, to become waiters, in the worst, coming here to kill and maim in the name of their religion - then I know which side the British people are going to go for every time. Which doesn't make it a right wing Tory vision.SouthamObserver said:Yep, this is the right wing Tory vision. Oligarchs pushing up the price of property and taking advantage of a low regulation UK in which public services are cut to the bare minimum and job security is next to non-existent. To be fair, this has been pretty obvious from the get-go and people voted for it. Whether they will be happy with the reality is something else entirely, but it is coming.
It makes it what the voters want from their politicians.
But then, they wanted a Referendum on the EU. Which those enlightened liberal souls in Labour and the LibDems fought to prevent for 18 years. And right up to the last election.
Which they each badly lost.
I can certainly see how us pulling out of the EU is going to stop people strapping themselves to the underside of vehicles to evade our immigration laws.
0 -
How long can the US keep the Slobodan Milosovic rule that the candidate receiving the second highest number of votes can win the election ?felix said:
This is part of the liberal left holy grail which Trump stumbled I suspect unwittingly against. While mos ordinary folk have moved swiftly on metropolitan remains bereft and grief stricken, unable to see the irony in a party called the DEMOCRATS sic! denying the legitimacy of their own democratic process. Time will heal the wounds ... probablyCharles said:
The reporting of the Rep. John Lewis tweets has been extraordinary.Blue_rog said:O/T and apologies for going off piste so soon
Just watched a piece on BBC about Trump. Don't know if the Beeb could have found a more partisan 'expert'. He could have been the spokesman for HRC!
I've not followed the detail, but if Lewis really said that he doesn't regard Trump as the "legitimate President" that's an outrageous and inflammatory thing for a leading politician to say.
Trump's criticism is that "he should spend more time fixing his crime ridden district" - standard political knockabout, not some kind of savage attack
BTW, it cannot happen in any other election in the US or in most other democratic country.
Please do not come back with some historical bullshit. This is 2017.
Even with the EC system, Maine and Nebraska has split their "votes". Why can't the rest of the US ?0 -
So the argument for pathetic euro-faggotry here is that you've been up the hill you're climbing before. There's a repeated pattern where the same people, including you, are telling us that if only Britain stood up for itself, it would get some kind of amazing deal that people who follow European politics say isn't available. Then whenever the leaders actually do what they want and the amazing deal doesn't materialize, they say it's because they were betrayed by its euro-faggot leaders.SeanT said:
We had this before the Flounce Bounce, where they said if Cameron would just be prepared to walk away he would get what he wanted, and he did, and they went on and did what they were going to do anyway. We had it over Juncker, where lots of people on this site were sure that if only Cameron were to Stand Strong, the Germans and the Finns and I can't remember who else would agree, they'd ignore the results of the elections and he'd get blocked. We had it over Cameron's "renegotiation", where the same people insisted Cameron would get something meaningful.
These are all the anti-EU people's strategies, and they never, ever work the way they say they will. And every time it fails, they do what they did on Iraq: Blame the failure on the unlucky person trying to execute the strategy, not the actual strategy.0 -
If we enter into any treaty with anyone, we typically accept international arbitration that has supremacy over UK domestic law. It's all a matter of degree.SouthamObserver said:
If its regulatory set-up was changed to allow non-EU member states to be a part of it and if we agreed to allowing European law to take precedence over UK law.MarkHopkins said:SouthamObserver said:
"The Agency is responsible for the scientific evaluation, supervision and safety monitoring of medicines developed by pharmaceutical companies for use in the EU."MaxPB said:
Would the EMA be worth anything without Switzerland or the UK? Tbh with both nations not in the EEA a more aggressive stance might be warranted, if the Swiss were on board.rcs1000 said:Switzerland is in the EMA, no?
So the answer is yes. It's basically the European FDA.
It could remain the European FDA, and just include EU, UK, and CH.0 -
The last Northern Ireland Census.OldKingCole said:
More than Irish? Whence come those figures?Alanbrooke said:
If it's so good why have the Baltic states had a demographic collapse in the last 20 years ?foxinsoxuk said:
Not much needed in terms of depreciation to put the Baltics, and Hapsburg Austian empire above Lincs. If we look at the worst bits of Lincs (such as Gainsborough or Skegness) then the A8 look attractive.rcs1000 said:
It's amazing how close some of those countries are to Lincolnshire already.another_richard said:European regions by GDP per capita:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_regions_by_GDP
English Midlands and North
£19,100 Lincolnshire to £28,800 Cheshire
Bulgaria
£6,500 to £8,700
Croatia
£14,200 to £14,500
Czech Republic (excluding Prague)
£15,400 to £17,500
Estonia
£15,500
Hungary (excluding Budapest)
£9,700 to £15,900
Latvia
£13,100
Lithuania
£14,900
Macedonia
£8,700
Poland (excluding Warsaw)
£10,300 to £17,200
Romania (excluding Bucharest)
£8,800 to £12,900
Slovakia (excluding Bratislava)
£12,100 to £16,700
So every region in Eastern Europe outside the capital cities had a lower GDP per capita than Lincolnshire.
Lithuania for example has lost about a quarter of it's people
In Northern Ireland Lithuanian is the third most spoken language after english and polish, and thats in the grimmest part of the UK. People actually emigrate to Lurgan and Dungannon.
It upset SF that Irish was only the fourth most spoken language.
http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9mSs2z1aHtYDIAAGS1LBQx.;_ylu=X3oDMTByMnE1MzMwBGNvbG8DaXIyBHBvcwMzBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzcg--/RV=2/RE=1484511606/RO=10/RU=http://www.nisra.gov.uk/Census/key_report_2011.pdf/RK=0/RS=KRcaADK3O5n9uLNkqfNJAcz4LS4-0 -
It's very unfashionable to say so at the moment, but when the UK opened its doors in 2004, one of the explicit reasons given was that it would foster long term links between the UK and the A8 countries that would give us an advantage over the rest of Western Europe.rcs1000 said:@Alanbrooke
The Baltics are increasingly attractive to inward investment, and the fact that so many people speak English because they have spent time in the UK is a big part of that.0 -
Mr. Glenn, Blair wanted to rub the right's face in diversity, which has worked as well as his plans to kill Scottish nationalism stone dead.
Anyway, must be off. The dog won't walk herself (except that time she ran off, obviously).0 -
Sturgeon worse that Thatcher.
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sturgeon-is-worse-than-thatcher-7glr90wt5
That will go down well with the SNP's troops.0 -
Let's start with those liberal bulwarks, California and New York, splitting their vote.....surbiton said:
How long can the US keep the Slobodan Milosovic rule that the candidate receiving the second highest number of votes can win the election ?felix said:
This is part of the liberal left holy grail which Trump stumbled I suspect unwittingly against. While mos ordinary folk have moved swiftly on metropolitan remains bereft and grief stricken, unable to see the irony in a party called the DEMOCRATS sic! denying the legitimacy of their own democratic process. Time will heal the wounds ... probablyCharles said:
The reporting of the Rep. John Lewis tweets has been extraordinary.Blue_rog said:O/T and apologies for going off piste so soon
Just watched a piece on BBC about Trump. Don't know if the Beeb could have found a more partisan 'expert'. He could have been the spokesman for HRC!
I've not followed the detail, but if Lewis really said that he doesn't regard Trump as the "legitimate President" that's an outrageous and inflammatory thing for a leading politician to say.
Trump's criticism is that "he should spend more time fixing his crime ridden district" - standard political knockabout, not some kind of savage attack
BTW, it cannot happen in any other election in the US or in most other democratic country.
Please do not come back with some historical bullshit. This is 2017.
Even with the EC system, Maine and Nebraska has split their "votes". Why can't the rest of the US ?0 -
That's not the same as accepting European law takes precedence over EU law. It's like a contract which states that in case of dispute a certain country's law will apply, rather than one which mandates binding arbitration. It's still perfectly doable, of course, but it needs political will on both sides.rcs1000 said:
If we enter into any treaty with anyone, we typically accept international arbitration that has supremacy over UK domestic law. It's all a matter of degree.SouthamObserver said:
If its regulatory set-up was changed to allow non-EU member states to be a part of it and if we agreed to allowing European law to take precedence over UK law.MarkHopkins said:SouthamObserver said:
"The Agency is responsible for the scientific evaluation, supervision and safety monitoring of medicines developed by pharmaceutical companies for use in the EU."MaxPB said:
Would the EMA be worth anything without Switzerland or the UK? Tbh with both nations not in the EEA a more aggressive stance might be warranted, if the Swiss were on board.rcs1000 said:Switzerland is in the EMA, no?
So the answer is yes. It's basically the European FDA.
It could remain the European FDA, and just include EU, UK, and CH.
0 -
She is not going to change her speech. Leadership is about making decisions and getting on with it no matter the opposition.Scott_P said:Interesting that some of those who criticised Cameron for his "PR" approach to Government are cheering Tezza for Government by press release.
She has briefed a speech which isn't due till Tuesday, and briefed a "market correction" in advance.
How big a correction will it be before she changes the speech?
So where are all those who accused her of being a ditherer and muddle thinker - that narrative has changed overnight0 -
The 'rubbing the right's face in diversity' moment wasn't 2004 but much earlier. Look at the graph:Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Glenn, Blair wanted to rub the right's face in diversity, which has worked as well as his plans to kill Scottish nationalism stone dead.
0 -
Starting with Margaret Thatcher, Britain always supported the accession of the East European countries because it would dilute the Franco-German axis. To some extent, it did.williamglenn said:
It's very unfashionable to say so at the moment, but when the UK opened its doors in 2004, one of the explicit reasons given was that it would foster long term links between the UK and the A8 countries that would give us an advantage over the rest of Western Europe.rcs1000 said:@Alanbrooke
The Baltics are increasingly attractive to inward investment, and the fact that so many people speak English because they have spent time in the UK is a big part of that.
The Tories could have got closer ties with CDU dominated German government. But they were never European at heart.0 -
The right believes in less regulation and low public spending. That's the way I use the term anyway.isam said:In the era of fluid gender, race and sexuality it is strange that many people who promote such ideas pigeon hole anyone who holds a view they disagree with as 'the right'
0 -
You can't close off options ahead of a negotiation.Big_G_NorthWales said:
She is not going to change her speech. Leadership is about making decisions and getting on with it no matter the opposition.Scott_P said:Interesting that some of those who criticised Cameron for his "PR" approach to Government are cheering Tezza for Government by press release.
She has briefed a speech which isn't due till Tuesday, and briefed a "market correction" in advance.
How big a correction will it be before she changes the speech?
So where are all those who accused her of being a ditherer and muddle thinker - that narrative has changed overnight
So May will still leave wiggle room for any outcome.0 -
hmmmrcs1000 said:@Alanbrooke
The Baltics are increasingly attractive to inward investment, and the fact that so many people speak English because they have spent time in the UK is a big part of that.
Genius Sports (the new name for Betgenius) has its largest non-UK office in Talinn.
I would expect lots of Estonians to return home in the next few years because the opportunities are great, and the cost of living low.
maybe rcs, but would you want to pile a bag of cash into three countries currently being mooted as bad Vlad's next land grab ? I doubt it's all plain sailing.
As for Estonian homecomers, well Ive never really noticed a huge number of Irish returning once theyve left and weve been at it longer than the Estonians. While I would happily go back, my english wife sees it very differently. I suspect emigrant Balts will have similar pressures.0 -
I bet that by the end of May's premiership public spending will still be higher than in Blair's first term and while no socialist she still does not believe in unfettered capitalism eitherSouthamObserver said:
The right believes in less regulation and low public spending. That's the way I use the term anyway.isam said:In the era of fluid gender, race and sexuality it is strange that many people who promote such ideas pigeon hole anyone who holds a view they disagree with as 'the right'
0 -
So what went wrong ?williamglenn said:
It's very unfashionable to say so at the moment, but when the UK opened its doors in 2004, one of the explicit reasons given was that it would foster long term links between the UK and the A8 countries that would give us an advantage over the rest of Western Europe.rcs1000 said:@Alanbrooke
The Baltics are increasingly attractive to inward investment, and the fact that so many people speak English because they have spent time in the UK is a big part of that.0 -
Each State is responsible for its own election, and the States choose the President. To change it into a straight vote count would require a constitutional amendment which is never going to happen. More states could act like Maine and Nebraska if they wished, but unless the largest states (CA, TX, FL, NY) do it it will make almost no difference to the outcome of the election.surbiton said:
How long can the US keep the Slobodan Milosovic rule that the candidate receiving the second highest number of votes can win the election ?felix said:
This is part of the liberal left holy grail which Trump stumbled I suspect unwittingly against. While mos ordinary folk have moved swiftly on metropolitan remains bereft and grief stricken, unable to see the irony in a party called the DEMOCRATS sic! denying the legitimacy of their own democratic process. Time will heal the wounds ... probablyCharles said:
The reporting of the Rep. John Lewis tweets has been extraordinary.Blue_rog said:O/T and apologies for going off piste so soon
Just watched a piece on BBC about Trump. Don't know if the Beeb could have found a more partisan 'expert'. He could have been the spokesman for HRC!
I've not followed the detail, but if Lewis really said that he doesn't regard Trump as the "legitimate President" that's an outrageous and inflammatory thing for a leading politician to say.
Trump's criticism is that "he should spend more time fixing his crime ridden district" - standard political knockabout, not some kind of savage attack
BTW, it cannot happen in any other election in the US or in most other democratic country.
Please do not come back with some historical bullshit. This is 2017.
Even with the EC system, Maine and Nebraska has split their "votes". Why can't the rest of the US ?
There is a plan to get states to sign up to agree the change if enough sign up, but it's not getting anywhere, mainly because politics is highly partisan and it would mean the 'winners' in each state voting to give more represeation to the 'losers'.
https://www.democracynow.org/2016/11/8/beyond_the_electoral_college_a_state0 -
Has anyone told the EU?David_Evershed said:
You can't close off options ahead of a negotiation.Big_G_NorthWales said:
She is not going to change her speech. Leadership is about making decisions and getting on with it no matter the opposition.Scott_P said:Interesting that some of those who criticised Cameron for his "PR" approach to Government are cheering Tezza for Government by press release.
She has briefed a speech which isn't due till Tuesday, and briefed a "market correction" in advance.
How big a correction will it be before she changes the speech?
So where are all those who accused her of being a ditherer and muddle thinker - that narrative has changed overnight
0 -
Although civil partnerships did not come in until 2004OldKingCole said:
It was the social attitudes that saved it. Pity Blair didn’t take the PR option while he was about it.HYUFD said:
Yes, economically the first Blair government was the most rightwing of any postwar UK government apart from the final Thatcher administrationwilliamglenn said:
Yes, Ken Clarke famously said that even he wouldn't have kept to his spending plans from 1997-2001. Labour then launched a misdirected rush to make up for lost time.HYUFD said:
Yes, so the really significant rise in NHS spending rose after 2004, from 1997 to 2001 it rose at the same rate as Major and Clarke were spending. When the Tories left office in 1997 public spending was 38% of gdp, by 2000 that had fallen to 35%SouthamObserver said:
http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/spending_chart_1990_2000UKp_16c1li011mcn_F0t_UK_Public_Spending_As_Percent_Of_GDP0 -
You mean every country in Eastern Europe outside the capital cities had a lower GDP per capita than Lincolnshire. You have not given us regional breakdowns within the countries. There are places in Romania and Bulgaria where it is barely above £5000.Alanbrooke said:
If it's so good why have the Baltic states had a demographic collapse in the last 20 years ?foxinsoxuk said:
Not much needed in terms of depreciation to put the Baltics, and Hapsburg Austian empire above Lincs. If we look at the worst bits of Lincs (such as Gainsborough or Skegness) then the A8 look attractive.rcs1000 said:
It's amazing how close some of those countries are to Lincolnshire already.another_richard said:European regions by GDP per capita:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_regions_by_GDP
English Midlands and North
£19,100 Lincolnshire to £28,800 Cheshire
Bulgaria
£6,500 to £8,700
Croatia
£14,200 to £14,500
Czech Republic (excluding Prague)
£15,400 to £17,500
Estonia
£15,500
Hungary (excluding Budapest)
£9,700 to £15,900
Latvia
£13,100
Lithuania
£14,900
Macedonia
£8,700
Poland (excluding Warsaw)
£10,300 to £17,200
Romania (excluding Bucharest)
£8,800 to £12,900
Slovakia (excluding Bratislava)
£12,100 to £16,700
So every region in Eastern Europe outside the capital cities had a lower GDP per capita than Lincolnshire.
Lithuania for example has lost about a quarter of it's people
In Northern Ireland Lithuanian is the third most spoken language after english and polish, and thats in the grimmest part of the UK. People actually emigrate to Lurgan and Dungannon.0 -
Perhaps.rcs1000 said:@Alanbrooke
The Baltics are increasingly attractive to inward investment, and the fact that so many people speak English because they have spent time in the UK is a big part of that.
Genius Sports (the new name for Betgenius) has its largest non-UK office in Talinn.
I would expect lots of Estonians to return home in the next few years because the opportunities are great, and the cost of living low.
But its also possible that very many more migrate westwards if Putin gets upset with Estonia.0 -
It is still a preference for Swiss job applicants, the job offer requirement May will push for will not be a million miles awayrcs1000 said:
Swiss job centres are allowed to put Swiss citizens forward for jobs first. I think that's just a fig leaf, don't you?HYUFD said:
Not entirely, it managed to get a rule that local Swiss workers could be given priority for jobsrcs1000 said:
Switzerland just caved on immigration to the EU, so that ship has sadly sailed.MaxPB said:
Would the EMA be worth anything without Switzerland or the UK? Tbh with both nations not in the EEA a more aggressive stance might be warranted, if the Swiss were on board.rcs1000 said:Switzerland is in the EMA, no?
Ultimately, any EU citizen can go to Switzerland, without a job, and get one.0 -
So she should dither a bit more...David_Evershed said:You can't close off options ahead of a negotiation.
So May will still leave wiggle room for any outcome.
Ok, got it.0 -
Thank you for reinforcing my point from down the thread. Good to have you on board Surby.surbiton said:
You mean every country in Eastern Europe outside the capital cities had a lower GDP per capita than Lincolnshire. You have not given us regional breakdowns within the countries. There are places in Romania and Bulgaria where it is barely above £5000.Alanbrooke said:
If it's so good why have the Baltic states had a demographic collapse in the last 20 years ?foxinsoxuk said:
Not much needed in terms of depreciation to put the Baltics, and Hapsburg Austian empire above Lincs. If we look at the worst bits of Lincs (such as Gainsborough or Skegness) then the A8 look attractive.rcs1000 said:
It's amazing how close some of those countries are to Lincolnshire already.another_richard said:European regions by GDP per capita:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_regions_by_GDP
English Midlands and North
£19,100 Lincolnshire to £28,800 Cheshire
Bulgaria
£6,500 to £8,700
Croatia
£14,200 to £14,500
Czech Republic (excluding Prague)
£15,400 to £17,500
Estonia
£15,500
Hungary (excluding Budapest)
£9,700 to £15,900
Latvia
£13,100
Lithuania
£14,900
Macedonia
£8,700
Poland (excluding Warsaw)
£10,300 to £17,200
Romania (excluding Bucharest)
£8,800 to £12,900
Slovakia (excluding Bratislava)
£12,100 to £16,700
So every region in Eastern Europe outside the capital cities had a lower GDP per capita than Lincolnshire.
Lithuania for example has lost about a quarter of it's people
In Northern Ireland Lithuanian is the third most spoken language after english and polish, and thats in the grimmest part of the UK. People actually emigrate to Lurgan and Dungannon.
0 -
Valid question...
@PCollinsTimes: Conservative opponents of the EU always used to say they hankered for the days it was just a Common Market. Why don't they want that now?0 -
I can see the Democrats not playing the ball anymore because their good days are coming within 8 years. Arizona nad then Texas flipping would take care of PA, MI and WI. Though whether all 3 would vote right wing all the time, I am not sure.Sandpit said:
Each State is responsible for its own election, and the States choose the President. To change it into a straight vote count would require a constitutional amendment which is never going to happen. More states could act like Maine and Nebraska if they wished, but unless the largest states (CA, TX, FL, NY) do it it will make almost no difference to the outcome of the election.surbiton said:
How long can the US keep the Slobodan Milosovic rule that the candidate receiving the second highest number of votes can win the election ?felix said:
This is part of the liberal left holy grail which Trump stumbled I suspect unwittingly against. While mos ordinary folk have moved swiftly on metropolitan remains bereft and grief stricken, unable to see the irony in a party called the DEMOCRATS sic! denying the legitimacy of their own democratic process. Time will heal the wounds ... probablyCharles said:
The reporting of the Rep. John Lewis tweets has been extraordinary.Blue_rog said:O/T and apologies for going off piste so soon
Just watched a piece on BBC about Trump. Don't know if the Beeb could have found a more partisan 'expert'. He could have been the spokesman for HRC!
I've not followed the detail, but if Lewis really said that he doesn't regard Trump as the "legitimate President" that's an outrageous and inflammatory thing for a leading politician to say.
Trump's criticism is that "he should spend more time fixing his crime ridden district" - standard political knockabout, not some kind of savage attack
BTW, it cannot happen in any other election in the US or in most other democratic country.
Please do not come back with some historical bullshit. This is 2017.
Even with the EC system, Maine and Nebraska has split their "votes". Why can't the rest of the US ?
There is a plan to get states to sign up to agree the change if enough sign up, but it's not getting anywhere, mainly because politics is highly partisan and it would mean the 'winners' in each state voting to give more represeation to the 'losers'.
https://www.democracynow.org/2016/11/8/beyond_the_electoral_college_a_state0 -
I've come to the conclusion that can never be done. Osborne's simplification of VAT on heated takeaway food nearly brought down the government.Patrick said:
Agreed. Hammond has a golden opportunity to make a massive simplification of our insanely complex tax system.rcs1000 said:
You need to equalise capital gains tax and income tax then, otherwise people will create businesses, accumulate profits, and then liquidate/sell them to convert income to capital gains.Patrick said:Irrespective of Brexit we should be targetting 0% Corporation Tax anyway. Abolish it. Tax the flows of cash to shareholders or debt holders instead. Much more direct. Easier to calculate. Almost impossible to avoid or evade. No allowances or loopholes for clever accountants to play with.
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Good question. Single Market and FoM. I will go for it.Scott_P said:Valid question...
@PCollinsTimes: Conservative opponents of the EU always used to say they hankered for the days it was just a Common Market. Why don't they want that now?
Maybe, they were lying. Actually, they did not like the bloody foreigners.0 -
Because it's no longer on the table?Scott_P said:Valid question...
@PCollinsTimes: Conservative opponents of the EU always used to say they hankered for the days it was just a Common Market. Why don't they want that now?
'Common Country' has replaced 'Common Market'0 -
It allowed Farage and elements of Leave to create bogeymen.Alanbrooke said:
So what went wrong ?williamglenn said:
It's very unfashionable to say so at the moment, but when the UK opened its doors in 2004, one of the explicit reasons given was that it would foster long term links between the UK and the A8 countries that would give us an advantage over the rest of Western Europe.rcs1000 said:@Alanbrooke
The Baltics are increasingly attractive to inward investment, and the fact that so many people speak English because they have spent time in the UK is a big part of that.0 -
If it's risen, it's hard to know what it's spent on given the scorched earth policy on local authority libraries, youth centres, NHS dentistry, building public and social housing for rent.HYUFD said:
I bet that by the end of May's premiership public spending will still be higher than in Blair's first term and while no socialist she still does not believe in unfettered capitalism eitherSouthamObserver said:
The right believes in less regulation and low public spending. That's the way I use the term anyway.isam said:In the era of fluid gender, race and sexuality it is strange that many people who promote such ideas pigeon hole anyone who holds a view they disagree with as 'the right'
But I suppose PFI payments and HMRC lease payments to Mapeley count as public spending. So you could eventually bankrupt UK PLC by outsourcing all building projects, prison operation and job centres to companies based in overseas tax havens, while real services delivered to the public decline.0 -
IIUC Estonian administration is largely online; If the Russians invaded Estonia I imagine most governments would continue recognizing the Estonian government in exile as the legitimate government of Estonia. So if you've registered your company in a virtual office there you could carry on paying your corporate taxes to a virtual country, and if you ended up in a legal dispute you could take advantage of their virtual courts.Alanbrooke said:
maybe rcs, but would you want to pile a bag of cash into three countries currently being mooted as bad Vlad's next land grab ? I doubt it's all plain sailing.
Since Russia would have taken responsibility for all the actual Estonia-dwelling humans, I'd imagine Virtual Estonia could make its taxes even lower and their regulations even more business-friendly.0 -
I employ Engineers. In the last 5 years, I have had difficulty even receiving British White CV's.HYUFD said:
It is still a preference for Swiss job applicants, the job offer requirement May will push for will not be a million miles awayrcs1000 said:
Swiss job centres are allowed to put Swiss citizens forward for jobs first. I think that's just a fig leaf, don't you?HYUFD said:
Not entirely, it managed to get a rule that local Swiss workers could be given priority for jobsrcs1000 said:
Switzerland just caved on immigration to the EU, so that ship has sadly sailed.MaxPB said:
Would the EMA be worth anything without Switzerland or the UK? Tbh with both nations not in the EEA a more aggressive stance might be warranted, if the Swiss were on board.rcs1000 said:Switzerland is in the EMA, no?
Ultimately, any EU citizen can go to Switzerland, without a job, and get one.
The last two I employed: one was an Australian [ British citizen who had lived in Oz since childhood ] and another UK born Pakistani. Before that two British citizens but both from India.
Most cannot even pass the very simple test we ask them to take. For example, what's Ohm's Law ? They actually have "qualifications".
The other problem I have is that the amount of work they are prepared to is terrible. If they have a customer visit at 2pm, that's the last one for the day.0
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