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  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    MTimT said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Y0kel said:

    Y0kel said:

    Y0kel said:

    Is it just me or does Corbyn need less advisors and maybe more needing a care worker to help the guy when he gets confused?

    Off topic, I know some suggest I'm a bit wacko when I claim that the Russians have Trump in their pocket with info about him both regarding his links to Russian money and his leisure activities.

    This evening CNN are reporting that there is credible info that the Russians have compromising financial and personal info on Donald.

    Question is, who is leaking this stuff?


    "leaking" or "making it up". How does CNN determine credibility? Did Hilary miss a trick? I've heard it said she does occasionally
    This shit isn't made up, I was posting about it before the election even happened. In fact the two things I suggested were financial links to dodgy money and Trump's leisure pursuits. Intelligence on Trumps links to Russia goes back a fair while, like years. Thats what is coming out now.
    It doesn't ring true for the simple reason that the Russians had no expectation that Trump would become President. Yes, you might expect their intelligence services to have a file on a prominent American businessman and celebrity, but even after he ran and won the nomination their expectation was that Hillary would win.
    A file and compromising material are very different.

    But the vulnerability of a presidential candidate and an actual president are also very different. Remember when Reagan and then Blair were called Teflon because no scandal ever stuck to them? It turns out it wasn't anything special about them, it's just that you can get away with pretty much anything these days. If the KGB have footage of Trump getting jiggy with a goat, so what? It might have damaged his campaign (though the pussy grabbing banter didn't) but why should it worry him in office?
    Quite. To be blackmailed, you need to be blackmailable. Which implies a capacity for shame and humiliation. So far, not characteristics in much evidence vis-a-vis the President-elect.
    Not looking forward to the press conference.

    "Yeah I like golden showers, so what" :-)

    (Incidentally when I first read it I replaced "golden" with Spanish" - - thought to myself, Trump will just boast :-)

    Don't look that one up on work computers people ;-)

    That Chinese saying about living in interesting times, well........ they are interesting if nothing else.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Floater said:

    Chris_A said:

    Essexit said:

    Chris_A said:

    SeanT said:

    Question for PB Remainers: aren't you even SLIGHTLY excited by the possibilities of Brexit? The reviving of Westminster politics? The new and unexpected potentialities?

    I get that convinced EU-federalists like williamglenn see Brexit as an evil, from which nothing good can come, which only destroys his European identity, but the more moderate Remainers must, surely, occasionally, thrill to the idea of freedom, or at least see the good in repatriating all these powers to our Mother of Parliaments?

    No?

    Absolutely not. I have gained no freedoms and will lose many.

    The biggest freedom I have lost is that of not having to worry about our future peace.
    Blimey. Do you actually believe that forcing divergent countries into a union was really going to preserve peace, or that Britain's departure will somehow cause WW3?
    We will have to wait and see. The peace has been kept for the last 70 years by the EU.
    oh, this ones a keeper.

    How do you think the EU did in the Ukraine?

    Rather better than Trump's buddy Putin did there!
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    Scott_P said:
    Even water sports?

    I will get my coat...........
  • RobD said:

    Chris_A said:

    RobD said:

    Chris_A said:

    RobD said:

    Chris_A said:


    We haven't regained independence. We still pool sovereignty by being members of organisations like UN, NATO etc. You Brexiteers are obsessed by some imaginary sovereignty which you reckon we had and lost and have now regained. As I said below it is complete and utter bollocks.

    We will have regained some sovereignty once we leave, surely?
    Some but we will still be bound by every other international treaty we have entered.

    Take energy policy. We couldn't dig out and burn the hundreds of years of coal reserves we have under our feet because we are bound by our obligations to the Kyoto Treaty,

    You join a club, union, anything for mutual benefit fully realising that you will have both rights and obligations. If you don't your utterly stupid, but that probably sums up a large number of Leavers.
    Who is arguing we don't have rights and obligations? Once we leave the EU, some sovereignty will be returned to Westminster.
    Then you agree - we will lose rights by leaving.

    As to the comment that it will take a generation to resolve, I will never be reconciled to the numpties led like sheep into the voting booths to vote Leave.
    Who argued we won't lose rights - of course we will. The right to freedom of movement (if we leave single market), right to have MEPs, right to have the EU flag on our driver's license.. etc etc
    I have the Union Jack on my driving licence which has just renewed as I shall be 73 next month
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053

    MikeK said:

    I don't quite believe it. I'm being allowed to post again.

    With great power comes great responsibility...
    Yeh well, It's come too late in the day to be useful, I'm off to bed in a mo.
    Still, theres always tomorrow. :D
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    nielh said:

    @SeanT

    This debate is basically a waste of time, we don't know what Brexit will be like because it is tied up with too much uncertainty about everything else that is happening in the world at the moment. It may be good and it may be bad, its probably best to be open minded about it. But a brexit that is "good" for us and bad for the EU is not good in my opinion becuase our fate is tied up with the continent of Europe as it always has been.

    From a purely selfish personal perspective I would have preferred the continuity remain position because it did provide for things like the ability to retire in Europe, the possibility of transferring things like healthcare, national insurance and benefits and the right to live freely in Europe without the hindrance of visas and petty daily bureaucracy. For someone on a modest wage with an EU spouse this is all pretty important stuff, more important even than abstract questions about sovereignty particuarly when 95% of the people I have ever met in my life have little or nothing to say about politics, nation or identity.

    I don't think that your enlightened democracy will arrive but I live in genuine hope. For what its worth I think we will get bounced in to ill advised trade deals that end up ceding far more soveriegnty that we ceded to the EU and we will get bogged down in distractions like scottish independence for many years to come and we won't make much progress at all but as ever i'm happy to be corrected by events.

    In general I struggle really to see what makes us here in the UK special and in many respects I think that other northern European countries are way ahead of us on many issues. They build better housing with proper playspace, bins and cycle stores, have better infrastructure, have fewer people in their jails etc. Then again I do also feel like this is my home and I feel an emotional attachment to it, and I don't want a life in exile even if it would be extremely easy for me to go down that road.

    The Brexit problem has been over our heads for four decades, I agree it has been conclusively resolved with the referendum result so now that has to be implemented. Maybe we will be ultimately humbled as a nation by the reality of Brexit, but before that can happen it needs to be put in to effect.

    Switzerland, Norway and Iceland are all outside the EU, much smaller than the UK and doing very nicely thankyou, in fact they are more prosperous than the EU average
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,787
    Floater said:


    Not looking forward to the press conference.

    "Yeah I like golden showers, so what" :-)

    Do you think Farage's tour just included the golden lift?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,545
    MTimT said:

    RobD said:

    Chris_A said:


    We haven't regained independence. We still pool sovereignty by being members of organisations like UN, NATO etc. You Brexiteers are obsessed by some imaginary sovereignty which you reckon we had and lost and have now regained. As I said below it is complete and utter bollocks.

    We will have regained some sovereignty once we leave, surely?
    Rob D, See my answer to Chris A. He is mostly talking through his arse. The amount of sovereignty ceded to the UN proper is minuscule. The amount we cede through treaties is also tiny in comparison to that ceded to the EU, and in any case can be reclaimed at any time through fairly straightforward processes to terminate treaty obligations.
    nevertheless the principle iI'd the same even if the degree is different and you may also come different conclusions on the value of the trade off. You pool sovereignty with constraints on your actions because you believe it benefits you and because it allows you to influence the wider community
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    RobD said:

    Chris_A said:

    RobD said:

    Chris_A said:


    We haven't regained independence. We still pool sovereignty by being members of organisations like UN, NATO etc. You Brexiteers are obsessed by some imaginary sovereignty which you reckon we had and lost and have now regained. As I said below it is complete and utter bollocks.

    We will have regained some sovereignty once we leave, surely?
    Some but we will still be bound by every other international treaty we have entered.

    Take energy policy. We couldn't dig out and burn the hundreds of years of coal reserves we have under our feet because we are bound by our obligations to the Kyoto Treaty,

    You join a club, union, anything for mutual benefit fully realising that you will have both rights and obligations. If you don't your utterly stupid, but that probably sums up a large number of Leavers.
    Who is arguing we don't have rights and obligations? Once we leave the EU, some sovereignty will be returned to Westminster.
    "your" instead of "you're" speaks to stupidity more than anything else in this thread
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Things to remember: don't stay in the Ritz Carlton, Moscow.

    What don't you want hot Russian prozzies on tap to perform golden showers? I think SeanT might form the opposite opinion. Wouldnt't be surprised to hear he was currently seeing what the room rate is.
    Yeah, we aren't exactly in Lib Dem sexual perversion territory here... :D
    Trump did deliver a Cleveland Steamer though...
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    Floater said:

    Chris_A said:

    Essexit said:

    Chris_A said:

    SeanT said:

    Question for PB Remainers: aren't you even SLIGHTLY excited by the possibilities of Brexit? The reviving of Westminster politics? The new and unexpected potentialities?

    I get that convinced EU-federalists like williamglenn see Brexit as an evil, from which nothing good can come, which only destroys his European identity, but the more moderate Remainers must, surely, occasionally, thrill to the idea of freedom, or at least see the good in repatriating all these powers to our Mother of Parliaments?

    No?

    Absolutely not. I have gained no freedoms and will lose many.

    The biggest freedom I have lost is that of not having to worry about our future peace.
    Blimey. Do you actually believe that forcing divergent countries into a union was really going to preserve peace, or that Britain's departure will somehow cause WW3?
    We will have to wait and see. The peace has been kept for the last 70 years by the EU.
    oh, this ones a keeper.

    How do you think the EU did in the Ukraine?

    Rather better than Trump's buddy Putin did there!
    You do know that EU "policy" ( I will have to use the term lightly) actually inflamed the situation, right?

  • RobD said:

    Chris_A said:

    RobD said:

    Chris_A said:

    RobD said:

    Chris_A said:


    We haven't regained independence. We still pool sovereignty by being members of organisations like UN, NATO etc. You Brexiteers are obsessed by some imaginary sovereignty which you reckon we had and lost and have now regained. As I said below it is complete and utter bollocks.

    We will have regained some sovereignty once we leave, surely?
    Some but we will still be bound by every other international treaty we have entered.

    Take energy policy. We couldn't dig out and burn the hundreds of years of coal reserves we have under our feet because we are bound by our obligations to the Kyoto Treaty,

    You join a club, union, anything for mutual benefit fully realising that you will have both rights and obligations. If you don't your utterly stupid, but that probably sums up a large number of Leavers.
    Who is arguing we don't have rights and obligations? Once we leave the EU, some sovereignty will be returned to Westminster.
    Then you agree - we will lose rights by leaving.

    As to the comment that it will take a generation to resolve, I will never be reconciled to the numpties led like sheep into the voting booths to vote Leave.
    Who argued we won't lose rights - of course we will. The right to freedom of movement (if we leave single market), right to have MEPs, right to have the EU flag on our driver's license.. etc etc
    I have the Union Jack on my driving licence which has just renewed as I shall be 73 next month
    And I have the Welsh Dragon on my number plates
  • EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,956
    Chris_A said:

    Essexit said:

    Chris_A said:

    SeanT said:

    Question for PB Remainers: aren't you even SLIGHTLY excited by the possibilities of Brexit? The reviving of Westminster politics? The new and unexpected potentialities?

    I get that convinced EU-federalists like williamglenn see Brexit as an evil, from which nothing good can come, which only destroys his European identity, but the more moderate Remainers must, surely, occasionally, thrill to the idea of freedom, or at least see the good in repatriating all these powers to our Mother of Parliaments?

    No?

    Absolutely not. I have gained no freedoms and will lose many.

    The biggest freedom I have lost is that of not having to worry about our future peace.
    Blimey. Do you actually believe that forcing divergent countries into a union was really going to preserve peace, or that Britain's departure will somehow cause WW3?
    We will have to wait and see. The peace has been kept for the last 70 years by the EU.
    No, correlation =/= causation. You accuse Leavers of being stupid sheep elsewhere in this thread, then make the simplest logical fallacy going.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    Chris_A said:

    Floater said:

    Chris_A said:

    Essexit said:

    Chris_A said:

    SeanT said:

    Question for PB Remainers: aren't you even SLIGHTLY excited by the possibilities of Brexit? The reviving of Westminster politics? The new and unexpected potentialities?

    I get that convinced EU-federalists like williamglenn see Brexit as an evil, from which nothing good can come, which only destroys his European identity, but the more moderate Remainers must, surely, occasionally, thrill to the idea of freedom, or at least see the good in repatriating all these powers to our Mother of Parliaments?

    No?

    Absolutely not. I have gained no freedoms and will lose many.

    The biggest freedom I have lost is that of not having to worry about our future peace.
    Blimey. Do you actually believe that forcing divergent countries into a union was really going to preserve peace, or that Britain's departure will somehow cause WW3?
    We will have to wait and see. The peace has been kept for the last 70 years by the EU.
    oh, this ones a keeper.

    How do you think the EU did in the Ukraine?

    Have I missed something, is Ukraine a member of the EU? You do realise that it's been an independent country for a good 25 years now hence the superfluous "the". Do try and keep up.
    Ok, lets try to help you out here.

    The EU had a policy towards Ukraine even though they are not part of the EU.

    Do try and keep up
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    Dura_Ace said:

    SeanT said:

    Question for PB Remainers: aren't you even SLIGHTLY excited by the possibilities of Brexit? The reviving of Westminster politics? The new and unexpected potentialities?

    I get that convinced EU-federalists like williamglenn see Brexit as an evil, from which nothing good can come, which only destroys his European identity, but the more moderate Remainers must, surely, occasionally, thrill to the idea of freedom, or at least see the good in repatriating all these powers to our Mother of Parliaments?

    No?

    No, it's an intellectually bankrupt retreat to reactionary values. I hope and pray it's a complete disaster that results in economic ruin and the disintegration of the UK.
    Blimey.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited January 2017
    There is one line in those documents that if proven will do for Trump far worse than banging prozzies stuff*. Says Trump team paid for anti-Clinton hackers in Eastern Europe.

    * I honestly doubt that stuff will have any impact, because during the campaign we already had stories of the sex parties that Trump used to be involved with, with the models, the drugs, etc.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    Ishmael_Z said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    Anorak said:

    Scott_P said:
    It's good for manufacturing; natural correction; nothing to see here; there are no tanks in Baghdad.
    The £ is near historic lows against the dollar (and thus other currencies), but it is not especially weak against the euro.

    But what do you expect, anyway? The UK has decided on a radical departure in its politics, a huge rupture in its trading and business situation, we're like a family that's decided to gut the house, and completely redo the place, down to the wiring and plumbing. You can anticipate some discomfort, for several years. Dust. Noise. Rubble. Workmen whistling in an annoying way.

    But in the end we will have a lovely new home.
    I think the £ will take a battering over the period from March 2017 to Nov 17 because we will ask for maximum single market access and immigration controls, and Barnier, Verhofstadt and Tusk/Juncker will tell us to go and do something that's physically impossible to ourselves.

    May won't compromise. And neither will they. So the markets will gradually wake up to the fact May actually means it, and so do the EU, assume an ultra-hard Brexit and so the pound will steadily slide. It will aided along the way by as many apocalyptic announcements from the EU of the consequences as possible.

    THIS IS DELIBERATE. The EU wants maximum market pressure on Sterling. It will be like a real-time Remain campaign run by the EU, but, they hope, with real fear this time.

    The hope is that by a no-holds bar, no compromising position, and immense market pressure on the currency, it will scare the Brits off leaving and/or lead to impossible political pressure on May.

    I think they are wrong, but it's not impossible they are right.
    I think most Brits don't really care that much about the currency except if they work in the City or go abroad regularly or buy a lot of foreign goods so I doubt it will make much difference, ...
    Bloody hell. That would have been an excellent point when Wilson made his "pound in your pocket" speech. Do you think the peasantry all still flock to Blackpool during wakes week for their hols? And that their iphones and cars and plasma tvs are hand-crafted in the Midlands?
    Apart from maybe a week or 2 in Spain the average Brit does not venture abroad the entire year and many will do staycations for a time if they get more control over immigration, it is perfectly easy to buy most of your food and drink from British sources and how often do people buy a new TV, phone or car, not even once a year!
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,231
    Floater said:

    Floater said:

    Chris_A said:

    Essexit said:

    Chris_A said:

    SeanT said:

    Question for PB Remainers: aren't you even SLIGHTLY excited by the possibilities of Brexit? The reviving of Westminster politics? The new and unexpected potentialities?

    I get that convinced EU-federalists like williamglenn see Brexit as an evil, from which nothing good can come, which only destroys his European identity, but the more moderate Remainers must, surely, occasionally, thrill to the idea of freedom, or at least see the good in repatriating all these powers to our Mother of Parliaments?

    No?

    Absolutely not. I have gained no freedoms and will lose many.

    The biggest freedom I have lost is that of not having to worry about our future peace.
    Blimey. Do you actually believe that forcing divergent countries into a union was really going to preserve peace, or that Britain's departure will somehow cause WW3?
    We will have to wait and see. The peace has been kept for the last 70 years by the EU.
    oh, this ones a keeper.

    How do you think the EU did in the Ukraine?

    Rather better than Trump's buddy Putin did there!
    You do know that EU "policy" ( I will have to use the term lightly) actually inflamed the situation, right?

    I was particularly impressed by the way the EU just made the poor innocent Russians shoot down an airliner. Oooh, that naughty EU.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Floater said:

    Floater said:

    Chris_A said:

    Essexit said:

    Chris_A said:

    SeanT said:

    Question for PB Remainers: aren't you even SLIGHTLY excited by the possibilities of Brexit? The reviving of Westminster politics? The new and unexpected potentialities?

    I get that convinced EU-federalists like williamglenn see Brexit as an evil, from which nothing good can come, which only destroys his European identity, but the more moderate Remainers must, surely, occasionally, thrill to the idea of freedom, or at least see the good in repatriating all these powers to our Mother of Parliaments?

    No?

    Absolutely not. I have gained no freedoms and will lose many.

    The biggest freedom I have lost is that of not having to worry about our future peace.
    Blimey. Do you actually believe that forcing divergent countries into a union was really going to preserve peace, or that Britain's departure will somehow cause WW3?
    We will have to wait and see. The peace has been kept for the last 70 years by the EU.
    oh, this ones a keeper.

    How do you think the EU did in the Ukraine?

    Rather better than Trump's buddy Putin did there!
    You do know that EU "policy" ( I will have to use the term lightly) actually inflamed the situation, right?

    You do know that Putin invaded a sovereign country, annexed land and shot a plane load of neutral civilians out of the sky? Rather trumps anything the EU did!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    Anorak said:

    Scott_P said:
    It's good for manufacturing; natural correction; nothing to see here; there are no tanks in Baghdad.
    The £ is near historic lows against the dollar (and thus other currencies), but it is not especially weak against the euro.

    But what do you expect, anyway? The UK has decided on a radical departure in its politics, a huge rupture in its trading and business situation, we're like a family that's decided to gut the house, and completely redo the place, down to the wiring and plumbing. You can anticipate some discomfort, for several years. Dust. Noise. Rubble. Workmen whistling in an annoying way.

    But in the end we will have a lovely new home.
    I think the £ will take a battering over the period from March 2017 to Nov 17 because we will ask for maximum single market access and immigration controls, and Barnier, Verhofstadt and Tusk/Juncker will tell us to go and do something that's physically impossible to ourselves.

    May won't compromise. And neither will they. So the markets will gradually wake up to the fact May actually means it, and so dthe consequences as possible.

    THIS IS DELIBERATE. The EU wants maximum market pressure on Sterling. It will be like a real-time Remain campaign run by the EU, but, they hope, with real fear this time.

    The hope is that by a no-holds bar, no compromising position, and immense market pressure on the currency, it will scare the Brits off leaving and/or lead to impossible political pressure on May.

    I think they are wrong, but it's not impossible they are right.
    I think most Brits don't really care that much about the currency except if they work in the City or go abroad regularly or buy a lot of foreign goods so I doubt it will make much difference, it would actually be good news for exporters, they care more about controlling immigration. If Brexit led to mass unemployment that might change things a bit but a fall in the currency won't
    So my friends .
    Most of them voted Remain anyway
    They all did. But I have to listen to it daily.
    Well they will just have to get used to being on the losing side for once
    "People who work in the City, live in London or work in media and consulting in town", be assured, won't be on the losing side from Brexit.
    They will if their job moves to Paris or Frankfurt, they have to cut down their 3 holidays a year, expensive French wine and BMW and Mercedes
  • Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307
    1. Be aware that the sensational is a good way of spreading more substantive information below it.

    2. One way to destroy is to ruin an individuals credibility and any sense of respect for them.

  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,231

    Floater said:


    Not looking forward to the press conference.

    "Yeah I like golden showers, so what" :-)

    Do you think Farage's tour just included the golden lift?
    Ew.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    RobD said:

    Chris_A said:

    RobD said:

    Chris_A said:

    RobD said:

    Chris_A said:


    We haven't regained independence. We still pool sovereignty by being members of organisations like UN, NATO etc. You Brexiteers are obsessed by some imaginary sovereignty which you reckon we had and lost and have now regained. As I said below it is complete and utter bollocks.

    We will have regained some sovereignty once we leave, surely?
    Some but we will still be bound by every other international treaty we have entered.

    Take energy policy. We couldn't dig out and burn the hundreds of years of coal reserves we have under our feet because we are bound by our obligations to the Kyoto Treaty,

    You join a club, union, anything for mutual benefit fully realising that you will have both rights and obligations. If you don't your utterly stupid, but that probably sums up a large number of Leavers.
    Who is arguing we don't have rights and obligations? Once we leave the EU, some sovereignty will be returned to Westminster.
    Then you agree - we will lose rights by leaving.

    As to the comment that it will take a generation to resolve, I will never be reconciled to the numpties led like sheep into the voting booths to vote Leave.
    Who argued we won't lose rights - of course we will. The right to freedom of movement (if we leave single market), right to have MEPs, right to have the EU flag on our driver's license.. etc etc
    I have the Union Jack on my driving licence which has just renewed as I shall be 73 next month
    And I have the Welsh Dragon on my number plates
    Charlotte Church?
  • Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307

    There is one line in those documents that if proven will do for Trump far worse than banging prozzies stuff*. Says Trump team paid for anti-Clinton hackers in Eastern Europe.

    * I honestly doubt that stuff will have any impact, because during the campaign we already had stories of the sex parties that Trump used to be involved with, with the models, the drugs, etc.

    Note below the earlier suggestion of Trump team meetings with Russian Intelligence cut outs and not for cocktails.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    Essexit said:

    Chris_A said:

    Essexit said:

    Chris_A said:

    SeanT said:

    Question for PB Remainers: aren't you even SLIGHTLY excited by the possibilities of Brexit? The reviving of Westminster politics? The new and unexpected potentialities?

    I get that convinced EU-federalists like williamglenn see Brexit as an evil, from which nothing good can come, which only destroys his European identity, but the more moderate Remainers must, surely, occasionally, thrill to the idea of freedom, or at least see the good in repatriating all these powers to our Mother of Parliaments?

    No?

    Absolutely not. I have gained no freedoms and will lose many.

    The biggest freedom I have lost is that of not having to worry about our future peace.
    Blimey. Do you actually believe that forcing divergent countries into a union was really going to preserve peace, or that Britain's departure will somehow cause WW3?
    We will have to wait and see. The peace has been kept for the last 70 years by the EU.
    No, correlation =/= causation. You accuse Leavers of being stupid sheep elsewhere in this thread, then make the simplest logical fallacy going.
    you're over his head
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,231

    ‪Trump's going to have to come up with a hell of a tweet to distract from this. Also Trump is a poundshop Mark Oaten. ‬

    https://twitter.com/roadto326/status/818963690636644352

    So let me get this right

    * Trump rented a hotel room where he got prostitutes to piss on him.
    * The Russians knew about this and attempted to skew the US election to get him elected.
    * They may actually have succeeded.

    Ohhhh shiiiit... :(
  • JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,082
    There was never any suggestion that it was the Russians that 'shot the airliner out of the sky' (the official, though widely disputed claim is that it was Ukranian separatist rebels that shot down the plane). christ the standard of discussion on here these days really is poor.
  • Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307
    If you couldnt be arsed reading through the weird and wonderful regarding Trump's leisure activities, what you probably should look for is anything to do with Prague, a very major locale for Russian Intelligence.

    Western intelligence services know this.
  • nielhnielh Posts: 1,307
    SeanT said:

    nielh said:

    @SeanT

    This debate is basically a waste of time,

    It's not zero sum. A Brexit can be good for the UK and ALSO good for the EU, or its constituent nations. God knows the EU needs reform (as everyone admits), if Brexit can't trigger this reform (and I confess I doubt it) then what will? Nothing, and it is therefore doomed to decline and eventual dissolution. And we are better off out, anyhow.

    Possibly. But the reform that is needed is probably more integration and we were always a brake on that.
    Many people i've met in Western Europe are true believers in the EU. They don't have a problem with the bizarre system of law making. They don't have a problem with complying with the directives. Their idea of success is to be prominent in the EU. Their countries were never 'great' in the first place. They worry more about external threats and to that end take the view that countries are stronger together and are internationalist in their outlook.
    I think we've got it wrong in that in the last six months we have just stuck two fingers up at the EU in a totally juvenile way without being mindful that - because of the way article 50 is drafted - they hold all the cards over our departure.
    The home office are writing letters to EU citizens of 20 years plus with UK kids telling them - inaccurately - that they have no right to stay in the UK and must make arrangements to leave. This is being reported in the media across Europe. And our home secretary is not intervening, not saying anything. As usual the silence says lots.
    Its not a good start because it plays in to the narrative on the part of the EU that the UK is a destructive force that must be neutered and humbled.
    When looking at events like this, its hard not to be sympathetic to the EU position.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,787
    There is so much in this report that doesn't ring true. They're even trying to suggest Trump was working as a spy for the Russians.

    image
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    Dura_Ace said:

    SeanT said:

    Question for PB Remainers: aren't you even SLIGHTLY excited by the possibilities of Brexit? The reviving of Westminster politics? The new and unexpected potentialities?

    I get that convinced EU-federalists like williamglenn see Brexit as an evil, from which nothing good can come, which only destroys his European identity, but the more moderate Remainers must, surely, occasionally, thrill to the idea of freedom, or at least see the good in repatriating all these powers to our Mother of Parliaments?

    No?

    No, it's an intellectually bankrupt retreat to reactionary values. I hope and pray it's a complete disaster that results in economic ruin and the disintegration of the UK.
    Perhaps you should move to somewhere you might feel more at home, Brussels for instance
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,231
    JWisemann said:

    There was never any suggestion that it was the Russians that 'shot the airliner out of the sky' (the official, though widely disputed claim is that it was Ukranian separatist rebels that shot down the plane). christ the standard of discussion on here these days really is poor.

    Perhaps you might like to share your superior level of discussion with this page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,231

    ...They're even trying to suggest Trump was working as a spy for the Russians.

    image

    So he's a millionaire who spies for the Russians and likes being pissed on by prostitutes.

    Thinks

    No, I got nothing.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    FF43 said:

    MTimT said:

    RobD said:

    Chris_A said:


    We haven't regained independence. We still pool sovereignty by being members of organisations like UN, NATO etc. You Brexiteers are obsessed by some imaginary sovereignty which you reckon we had and lost and have now regained. As I said below it is complete and utter bollocks.

    We will have regained some sovereignty once we leave, surely?
    Rob D, See my answer to Chris A. He is mostly talking through his arse. The amount of sovereignty ceded to the UN proper is minuscule. The amount we cede through treaties is also tiny in comparison to that ceded to the EU, and in any case can be reclaimed at any time through fairly straightforward processes to terminate treaty obligations.
    nevertheless the principle iI'd the same even if the degree is different and you may also come different conclusions on the value of the trade off. You pool sovereignty with constraints on your actions because you believe it benefits you and because it allows you to influence the wider community
    Not arguing the basic premise.

    But there is a qualitative difference of being a la carte or all-or-nothing. And in addition there is a vast difference of scale. On that point, I tend to subscribe to Stalin's idea that quantity has a quality all of its own.
  • Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307
    Just as a final note in advance of a Trump Tantrum.

    This release has a strangely non-US agency stamp.

    The next ones may not.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    nielh said:


    When looking at events like this, its hard not to be sympathetic to the EU position.

    I think you have to very consciously concentrate you view down to a narrow focus on a few of the worst aspects of the UK, and keep it there at the exclusion of the vast bulk of it, which is generally pretty good, in order to sustain this viewpoint.

    I don't know why anyone would want to expend such effort to find ways to dislike their own country.
  • BBC and Sky seem uncharacteristically slow to pick up on CNN story about Trump.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    BBC and Sky seem uncharacteristically slow to pick up on CNN story about Trump.

    Perhaps they've had the source material long enough to have had a look into it ... It used to be called journalism.
  • Good timing...

    Fox News Secretly Settled Bill O’Reilly Sexual Harassment Case: Reports
    He allegedly pursued a sexual relationship with a fellow anchor in 2011.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/fox-news-bill-oreilly-sexual-harassment_us_58751982e4b02b5f858b59f9
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Y0kel said:

    1. Be aware that the sensational is a good way of spreading more substantive information below it.

    2. One way to destroy is to ruin an individuals credibility and any sense of respect for them.

    Serious question, Y0kel. Given that Trump can be so shameless about grabbing women, mocking the disabled, slandering Mexicans and so on, and that this has all be played out in front of the US public, do you think these revelations, even if true, will impact either him or the 'respect' with which he is held?

    As I see it, even those who voted for him view him as crass, infantile and shameless. And it is that last category that in large part got him elected.

    Cameron was not too adversely affected by stories of pigs because both provenance and relevance were questionable. The same holds pretty true here too, unless there is unimpeachable, impeachment-enabling evidence that Trump has been an agent for FSB.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    MTimT said:

    BBC and Sky seem uncharacteristically slow to pick up on CNN story about Trump.

    Perhaps they've had the source material long enough to have had a look into it ... It used to be called journalism.
    I think they're waiting for @Plato to call it.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    MTimT said:

    BBC and Sky seem uncharacteristically slow to pick up on CNN story about Trump.

    Perhaps they've had the source material long enough to have had a look into it ... It used to be called journalism.
    I think they're waiting for @Plato to call it.
    :)
  • RobD said:

    Chris_A said:

    RobD said:

    Chris_A said:

    RobD said:

    Chris_A said:


    We haven't regained independence. We still pool sovereignty by being members of organisations like UN, NATO etc. You Brexiteers are obsessed by some imaginary sovereignty which you reckon we had and lost and have now regained. As I said below it is complete and utter bollocks.

    We will have regained some sovereignty once we leave, surely?
    Some but we will still be bound by every other international treaty we have entered.

    Take energy policy. We couldn't dig out and burn the hundreds of years of coal reserves we have under our feet because we are bound by our obligations to the Kyoto Treaty,

    You join a club, union, anything for mutual benefit fully realising that you will have both rights and obligations. If you don't your utterly stupid, but that probably sums up a large number of Leavers.
    Who is arguing we don't have rights and obligations? Once we leave the EU, some sovereignty will be returned to Westminster.
    Then you agree - we will lose rights by leaving.

    As to the comment that it will take a generation to resolve, I will never be reconciled to the numpties led like sheep into the voting booths to vote Leave.
    Who argued we won't lose rights - of course we will. The right to freedom of movement (if we leave single market), right to have MEPs, right to have the EU flag on our driver's license.. etc etc
    I have the Union Jack on my driving licence which has just renewed as I shall be 73 next month
    And I have the Welsh Dragon on my number plates
    Charlotte Church?
    Since I have had Welsh number plates from long before she was born - no but it is a good comment
  • nielhnielh Posts: 1,307
    MTimT said:

    nielh said:


    When looking at events like this, its hard not to be sympathetic to the EU position.

    I think you have to very consciously concentrate you view down to a narrow focus on a few of the worst aspects of the UK, and keep it there at the exclusion of the vast bulk of it, which is generally pretty good, in order to sustain this viewpoint.

    I don't know why anyone would want to expend such effort to find ways to dislike their own country.

    Re read the comments, thats not what I am saying at all.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    MTimT said:

    Y0kel said:

    1. Be aware that the sensational is a good way of spreading more substantive information below it.

    2. One way to destroy is to ruin an individuals credibility and any sense of respect for them.

    Serious question, Y0kel. Given that Trump can be so shameless about grabbing women, mocking the disabled, slandering Mexicans and so on, and that this has all be played out in front of the US public, do you think these revelations, even if true, will impact either him or the 'respect' with which he is held?

    As I see it, even those who voted for him view him as crass, infantile and shameless. And it is that last category that in large part got him elected.

    Cameron was not too adversely affected by stories of pigs because both provenance and relevance were questionable. The same holds pretty true here too, unless there is unimpeachable, impeachment-enabling evidence that Trump has been an agent for FSB.
    Golden showers is neither here nor there (even if the particular anecdote cited speaks to a deeply disturbed psychology).

    Colluding with the Russians to hack your opponents campaign, along with evidence of financial ties to Russian intelligence must actually be impeachable.

    Whatever they think down in West Virginia.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    MTimT said:

    Y0kel said:

    1. Be aware that the sensational is a good way of spreading more substantive information below it.

    2. One way to destroy is to ruin an individuals credibility and any sense of respect for them.

    Serious question, Y0kel. Given that Trump can be so shameless about grabbing women, mocking the disabled, slandering Mexicans and so on, and that this has all be played out in front of the US public, do you think these revelations, even if true, will impact either him or the 'respect' with which he is held?

    As I see it, even those who voted for him view him as crass, infantile and shameless. And it is that last category that in large part got him elected.

    Cameron was not too adversely affected by stories of pigs because both provenance and relevance were questionable. The same holds pretty true here too, unless there is unimpeachable, impeachment-enabling evidence that Trump has been an agent for FSB.
    Golden showers is neither here nor there (even if the particular anecdote cited speaks to a deeply disturbed psychology).

    Colluding with the Russians to hack your opponents campaign, along with evidence of financial ties to Russian intelligence must actually be impeachable.

    Whatever they think down in West Virginia.
    Thanks. I have not read beyond the first page, so missed that. But the question remains about the authenticity of the claims. If they are true, then I agree, it is impeachable.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    MTimT said:

    MTimT said:

    Y0kel said:

    1. Be aware that the sensational is a good way of spreading more substantive information below it.

    2. One way to destroy is to ruin an individuals credibility and any sense of respect for them.

    Serious question, Y0kel. Given that Trump can be so shameless about grabbing women, mocking the disabled, slandering Mexicans and so on, and that this has all be played out in front of the US public, do you think these revelations, even if true, will impact either him or the 'respect' with which he is held?

    As I see it, even those who voted for him view him as crass, infantile and shameless. And it is that last category that in large part got him elected.

    Cameron was not too adversely affected by stories of pigs because both provenance and relevance were questionable. The same holds pretty true here too, unless there is unimpeachable, impeachment-enabling evidence that Trump has been an agent for FSB.
    Golden showers is neither here nor there (even if the particular anecdote cited speaks to a deeply disturbed psychology).

    Colluding with the Russians to hack your opponents campaign, along with evidence of financial ties to Russian intelligence must actually be impeachable.

    Whatever they think down in West Virginia.
    Thanks. I have not read beyond the first page, so missed that. But the question remains about the authenticity of the claims. If they are true, then I agree, it is impeachable.
    The problem is how on earth to verify?
    But maybe that's what a trial is for. Finances at least must be traceable.
  • Twitter is calling this watersportsgate....piss poor hashtag if you ask me.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,787
    MTimT said:

    MTimT said:

    Y0kel said:

    1. Be aware that the sensational is a good way of spreading more substantive information below it.

    2. One way to destroy is to ruin an individuals credibility and any sense of respect for them.

    Serious question, Y0kel. Given that Trump can be so shameless about grabbing women, mocking the disabled, slandering Mexicans and so on, and that this has all be played out in front of the US public, do you think these revelations, even if true, will impact either him or the 'respect' with which he is held?

    As I see it, even those who voted for him view him as crass, infantile and shameless. And it is that last category that in large part got him elected.

    Cameron was not too adversely affected by stories of pigs because both provenance and relevance were questionable. The same holds pretty true here too, unless there is unimpeachable, impeachment-enabling evidence that Trump has been an agent for FSB.
    Golden showers is neither here nor there (even if the particular anecdote cited speaks to a deeply disturbed psychology).

    Colluding with the Russians to hack your opponents campaign, along with evidence of financial ties to Russian intelligence must actually be impeachable.

    Whatever they think down in West Virginia.
    Thanks. I have not read beyond the first page, so missed that. But the question remains about the authenticity of the claims. If they are true, then I agree, it is impeachable.
    And if they're a fabrication by people connected with British intelligence? Pretty explosive either way...
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,231
    MTimT said:

    Y0kel said:

    1. Be aware that the sensational is a good way of spreading more substantive information below it.

    2. One way to destroy is to ruin an individuals credibility and any sense of respect for them.

    Serious question, Y0kel. Given that Trump can be so shameless about grabbing women, mocking the disabled, slandering Mexicans and so on, and that this has all be played out in front of the US public, do you think these revelations, even if true, will impact either him or the 'respect' with which he is held?

    As I see it, even those who voted for him view him as crass, infantile and shameless. And it is that last category that in large part got him elected.

    Cameron was not too adversely affected by stories of pigs because both provenance and relevance were questionable. The same holds pretty true here too, unless there is unimpeachable, impeachment-enabling evidence that Trump has been an agent for FSB.
    I'm not Y0kel, but I'll give it a go. Insults that reinforce the image you have of a person don't have an effect, yes? Cameron got away with the pigfucking because it was a drinking game played by upper-class public-school twats and as we already knew he was an upper-class public-school twat it didn't really have an effect. Similarly we already know Trump is a crass boor who can't keep his hands off the staff, so you'd think this also wouldn't have an effect. But being pissed on by prostitutes isn't normal weird, it's a bit pervy. Well, it's a lot pervy, to be honest. I don'y know what effect it has on the Americans but it makes me go ew.

    And this "spying for the Russians" thing is beginning to weigh. What if he actually is compromised?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,231

    Twitter is calling this watersportsgate....piss poor hashtag if you ask me.

    I laughed so hard a little bit of wee came out.

    Which was apt... :(
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    Waterspouts I personally can turn a blind eye too.

    But the story is that he deliberately hired the room Barack and Michelle used at the Ritz Carlton Moscow and got a bunch of pissing prostitutes to defile it.

    That's basically mentally ill.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    MTimT said:

    MTimT said:

    Y0kel said:

    1. Be aware that the sensational is a good way of spreading more substantive information below it.

    2. One way to destroy is to ruin an individuals credibility and any sense of respect for them.

    Serious question, Y0kel. Given that Trump can be so shameless about grabbing women, mocking the disabled, slandering Mexicans and so on, and that this has all be played out in front of the US public, do you think these revelations, even if true, will impact either him or the 'respect' with which he is held?

    As I see it, even those who voted for him view him as crass, infantile and shameless. And it is that last category that in large part got him elected.

    Cameron was not too adversely affected by stories of pigs because both provenance and relevance were questionable. The same holds pretty true here too, unless there is unimpeachable, impeachment-enabling evidence that Trump has been an agent for FSB.
    Golden showers is neither here nor there (even if the particular anecdote cited speaks to a deeply disturbed psychology).

    Colluding with the Russians to hack your opponents campaign, along with evidence of financial ties to Russian intelligence must actually be impeachable.

    Whatever they think down in West Virginia.
    Thanks. I have not read beyond the first page, so missed that. But the question remains about the authenticity of the claims. If they are true, then I agree, it is impeachable.
    The problem is how on earth to verify?
    But maybe that's what a trial is for. Finances at least must be traceable.
    Maybe that's the real FSB game. That there is nothing provable, just explosive rumors that will divide the US internally and drive a wedge between it and its ally, causing all involved to get involved in a witch hunt that detracts resources and attention away from other areas, Putin's Russia in particular.

    I am not a Trump fan at all. I will not defend him. But this whole affair and its timing reeks to high heaven. Deception intelligence is all about knowing which buttons to push. In this pushes the right buttons both the hook an ambitious British intelligence officer, and to create a furore in the US. All rather neat and convenient to my devious mind.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,958
    Dura_Ace said:

    SeanT said:

    Question for PB Remainers: aren't you even SLIGHTLY excited by the possibilities of Brexit? The reviving of Westminster politics? The new and unexpected potentialities?

    I get that convinced EU-federalists like williamglenn see Brexit as an evil, from which nothing good can come, which only destroys his European identity, but the more moderate Remainers must, surely, occasionally, thrill to the idea of freedom, or at least see the good in repatriating all these powers to our Mother of Parliaments?

    No?

    No, it's an intellectually bankrupt retreat to reactionary values. I hope and pray it's a complete disaster that results in economic ruin and the disintegration of the UK.

    Which God do you pray to for this outcome? He must be one vindictive bastard....
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,620
    SeanT said:

    nielh said:

    @SeanT

    This debate is basically a waste of time, we don't know what Brexit will be like because it is tied up with too much uncertainty about everything else that is happening in the world at the moment. It may be good and it may be bad, its probably best to be open minded about it. But a brexit that is "good" for us and bad for the EU is not good in my opinion becuase our fate is tied up with the continent of Europe as it always has been.

    Fro

    I don't think that your enlightened democracy will arrive but I live in genuine hope. For what its worth I think we will get bounced in to ill advised trade deals that end up ceding far more soveriegnty that we ceded to the EU and we will get bogged down in distractions like scottish independence for many years to come and we won't make much progress at all but as ever i'm happy to be corrected by events.

    In general I struggle really to see what makes us here in the UK special and in many respects I think that other northern European countries are way ahead of us on many issues. They build better housing with proper playspace, bins and cycle stores, have better infrastructure, have fewer people in their jails etc. Then again I do also feel like this is my home and I feel an emotional attachment to it, and I don't want a life in exile even if it would be extremely easy for me to go down that road.

    The Brexit problem has been over our heads for four decades, I agree it has been conclusively resolved with the referendum result so now that has to be implemented. Maybe we will be ultimately humbled as a nation by the reality of Brexit, but before that can happen it needs to be put in to effect.

    It's not zero sum. A Brexit can be good for the UK and ALSO good for the EU, or its constituent nations. God knows the EU needs reform (as everyone admits), if Brexit can't trigger this reform (and I confess I doubt it) then what will? Nothing, and it is therefore doomed to decline and eventual dissolution. And we are better off out, anyhow.

    But otherwise: thanks. An honest answer. I do realise my perspective (affluent, metropolitan) is warped and unusual which is why I sincerely want to know what my fellow Britons, including the 48% who voted Remain, really think.

    I don't believe you Remainers, in the main, are MONSTERS. I do believe some of you are going a bit mad.

    The Euronationalists *have* to believe that Brexit will fail. This is because one of the defining characteristics of hard core nationalism is a determined inability to see the point of view of the other side.

    Expecting them to do otherwise is similar to expecting a Scottish Nationalist to state that Scotland needs Englands help.
  • MTimT said:

    MTimT said:

    MTimT said:

    Y0kel said:

    1. Be aware that the sensational is a good way of spreading more substantive information below it.

    2. One way to destroy is to ruin an individuals credibility and any sense of respect for them.

    Serious question, Y0kel. Given that Trump can be so shameless about grabbing women, mocking the disabled, slandering Mexicans and so on, and that this has all be played out in front of the US public, do you think these revelations, even if true, will impact either him or the 'respect' with which he is held?

    As I see it, even those who voted for him view him as crass, infantile and shameless. And it is that last category that in large part got him elected.

    Cameron was not too adversely affected by stories of pigs because both provenance and relevance were questionable. The same holds pretty true here too, unless there is unimpeachable, impeachment-enabling evidence that Trump has been an agent for FSB.
    Golden showers is neither here nor there (even if the particular anecdote cited speaks to a deeply disturbed psychology).

    Colluding with the Russians to hack your opponents campaign, along with evidence of financial ties to Russian intelligence must actually be impeachable.

    Whatever they think down in West Virginia.
    Thanks. I have not read beyond the first page, so missed that. But the question remains about the authenticity of the claims. If they are true, then I agree, it is impeachable.
    The problem is how on earth to verify?
    But maybe that's what a trial is for. Finances at least must be traceable.
    Maybe that's the real FSB game. That there is nothing provable, just explosive rumors that will divide the US internally and drive a wedge between it and its ally, causing all involved to get involved in a witch hunt that detracts resources and attention away from other areas, Putin's Russia in particular.

    I am not a Trump fan at all. I will not defend him. But this whole affair and its timing reeks to high heaven. Deception intelligence is all about knowing which buttons to push. In this pushes the right buttons both the hook an ambitious British intelligence officer, and to create a furore in the US. All rather neat and convenient to my devious mind.
    One thing that is rather weird...the claims are the Russians offered him bribes in the form of property deals etc and he wasn't interested. The Donald not interested in a real estate deal, most unusual, especially given the claims like using his status of POTUS elect to pressure the Argies on an existing deal.
  • Waterspouts I personally can turn a blind eye too.

    But the story is that he deliberately hired the room Barack and Michelle used at the Ritz Carlton Moscow and got a bunch of pissing prostitutes to defile it.

    That's basically mentally ill.

    Did you not watch the debates? Lots of very odd behaviour on display over those 5hrs.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812

    Waterspouts I personally can turn a blind eye too.

    But the story is that he deliberately hired the room Barack and Michelle used at the Ritz Carlton Moscow and got a bunch of pissing prostitutes to defile it.

    That's basically mentally ill.

    Did you not watch the debates? Lots of very odd behaviour on display over those 5hrs.
    Completely coincidentally I am in NYC (waiting for red eye back to Heathrow) and met the man who has done Trump's PR for many years, up until last year I think.

    Fascinating. He predicted that once Prez, Trump would destroy the RNC in revenge for cold shouldering him during the campaign.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,231

    Dura_Ace said:

    SeanT said:

    Question for PB Remainers: aren't you even SLIGHTLY excited by the possibilities of Brexit? The reviving of Westminster politics? The new and unexpected potentialities?

    I get that convinced EU-federalists like williamglenn see Brexit as an evil, from which nothing good can come, which only destroys his European identity, but the more moderate Remainers must, surely, occasionally, thrill to the idea of freedom, or at least see the good in repatriating all these powers to our Mother of Parliaments?

    No?

    No, it's an intellectually bankrupt retreat to reactionary values. I hope and pray it's a complete disaster that results in economic ruin and the disintegration of the UK.

    Which God do you pray to for this outcome? He must be one vindictive bastard....
    Have you ever read the Old Testament?
  • Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307
    MTimT said:

    Y0kel said:

    1. Be aware that the sensational is a good way of spreading more substantive information below it.

    2. One way to destroy is to ruin an individuals credibility and any sense of respect for them.

    Serious question, Y0kel. Given that Trump can be so shameless about grabbing women, mocking the disabled, slandering Mexicans and so on, and that this has all be played out in front of the US public, do you think these revelations, even if true, will impact either him or the 'respect' with which he is held?

    As I see it, even those who voted for him view him as crass, infantile and shameless. And it is that last category that in large part got him elected.

    Cameron was not too adversely affected by stories of pigs because both provenance and relevance were questionable. The same holds pretty true here too, unless there is unimpeachable, impeachment-enabling evidence that Trump has been an agent for FSB.
    I did caution below on some of detail in this document but certainly it does perhaps verify previous suggestions I've made that the Russians had something on Trump's leisure activities.

    At this point will it matter what the public think? What does his party think, there is the question. Yes, everyone thinks they know that Trump is a complete case but that is just the headline. The aim is to suggest that Trump is compromised as President in his duty to do right by his country by the fact that he has to a) do what a foreign country suggests because they have him by the nads and/or b) has actively worked with a foreign country (and more besides) to get to this position.

    Its the contacts between his surrogates and Russian intelligence in the heat of the presidential campaign that might prove interesting. If this document was leaked by the spooks and that detail is incorrect it could kill off the effort, short term, to reveal that Trump has perhaps a bigger motivation in his job than being President for the United States and that motivation is keeping a foreign country sweet.

    If that info on meetings with Russian intelligence is accurate and verifying detail comes out then Trump has a problem. Craft would suggest that as part of a rolling effort to cripple Trump, that you throw out a substantive suggestion that you can back up but don't show all your cards. Force either a denial, bullshit or lies from your target, then release out verifying information for your case.

    There is more, some of which I've been outlining for a while on here but couldn't detail too much beyond. Given your background you might be familiar with the idea that some foreign intelligence services have very strong links with criminal underworlds and there is a strong level of co-operation and co-existence between them.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,787
    edited January 2017
    "Michael Cohen Verified account
    @MichaelCohen212

    I have never been to Prague in my life. #fakenews"
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,787
    Y0kel said:

    If this document was leaked by the spooks and that detail is incorrect it could kill off the effort, short term, to reveal that Trump has perhaps a bigger motivation in his job than being President for the United States and that motivation is keeping a foreign country sweet.

    It seems like a transparent attempt to warn him off cooling relations with Russia out of feat of appearing to be compromised.
  • Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307
    Just want to point out that the FBI's counter intelligence guys did get authorisation to investigate some of Trumps team in relation to their links with 3rd party intelligence services.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,574
    All this might, of course, account for Trump's strange hair colour and skin tone ?

    In light of the military buildup in Europe it's rather more serious than that, though:
    https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/01/trump-nato-europe-russia/512648/
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,881
    Explosive story to start the day!
    Impressed that motherjones reporter chose not to release these allegations in October as they were unsubstantiated. http://www.snopes.com/u-s-trump-intelligence-russia/

    I wonder if a parallel can be drawn with the Reagan Carter hostage affair. No doubt that the Iranians used the hostages to influence the election and hurt Carter. But did they collude with Reagan? Never got the evidence to prove it.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,771
    Re Trump. What a total non story. I doubt there's a single PB poster that hasn't paid a hooker for a golden shower at one point or another.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    rcs1000 said:

    Re Trump. What a total non story. I doubt there's a single PB poster that hasn't paid a hooker for a golden shower at one point or another.

    I'd imagine you are enjoying a GoldenGateShower at the moment...
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Y0kel said:

    I did caution below on some of detail in this document but certainly it does perhaps verify previous suggestions I've made that the Russians had something on Trump's leisure activities.

    At this point will it matter what the public think? What does his party think, there is the question. Yes, everyone thinks they know that Trump is a complete case but that is just the headline. The aim is to suggest that Trump is compromised as President in his duty to do right by his country by the fact that he has to a) do what a foreign country suggests because they have him by the nads and/or b) has actively worked with a foreign country (and more besides) to get to this position.

    Its the contacts between his surrogates and Russian intelligence in the heat of the presidential campaign that might prove interesting. If this document was leaked by the spooks and that detail is incorrect it could kill off the effort, short term, to reveal that Trump has perhaps a bigger motivation in his job than being President for the United States and that motivation is keeping a foreign country sweet.

    If that info on meetings with Russian intelligence is accurate and verifying detail comes out then Trump has a problem. Craft would suggest that as part of a rolling effort to cripple Trump, that you throw out a substantive suggestion that you can back up but don't show all your cards. Force either a denial, bullshit or lies from your target, then release out verifying information for your case.

    There is more, some of which I've been outlining for a while on here but couldn't detail too much beyond. Given your background you might be familiar with the idea that some foreign intelligence services have very strong links with criminal underworlds and there is a strong level of co-operation and co-existence between them.

    Y0kel Thanks for the serious response. I have great respect for the intelligence services, but also a well-developed understanding of the limits of confidence in intelligence and of the power of well-crafted deception operations. Hence my somewhat skeptical initial response to stories that all too perfectly play out to Russian advantage.

    But you are right, there are all sorts of linkages in that murky world, and if the contacts between the Trump campaign and FSB or its surrogates turn out to be true, then this, in Joe Biden's immortal words, is a Big F*cking Deal.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    rcs1000 said:

    Re Trump. What a total non story. I doubt there's a single PB poster that hasn't paid a hooker for a golden shower at one point or another.

    LOL.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,136
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    I'd actually be happy with edmundintokyo, if he's willing to take up the role. He's a Remainer but he's quite distanced, what with being in Tokyo and all.

    I'd be happy with edmundintokyo too.
    Cool. Let's hope he agrees. Otherwise I see the wager as up and running.
    In principle I'm happy to adjudicate something but I missed most of the discussion about the thing I'd be adjudicating, so can someone summarize it, then I'll confirm I can adjudicate it whether it happened or not, then you guys can confirm to each other when and how much you're betting on whether it happened or not.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    The US is about to get a sadistic, mentally ill President. He needs help !

    BTW, I am not entirely sure about the authenticity of the entire story. But some elements are true. There has to be , otherwise, it would not have any legs.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    edited January 2017
    surbiton said:

    The US is about to get a sadistic, mentally ill President. He needs help !

    BTW, I am not entirely sure about the authenticity of the entire story. But some elements are true. There has to be , otherwise, it would not have any legs.

    It has legs because it suits the narrative some want to make. Would be a fitting end if it turned out to be fake given the recent focus on fake news, but proving that would be quite difficult. There are already some relatively basic errors that have been noted in the report, and some facts that could be easily checked, such as the supposed meeting in Prague.

    FWIW the notorious hacker 4chan is claiming responsibility for feeding this to Rick Wilson. That would be truly hilarious, although I am skeptical!
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,771
    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Re Trump. What a total non story. I doubt there's a single PB poster that hasn't paid a hooker for a golden shower at one point or another.

    I'd imagine you are enjoying a GoldenGateShower at the moment...
    I came all this way without a coat. Feeling rather foolish.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    I just heard on radio that Obama has left office with approval ratings of 55%. Trump is entering with ratings of somewhere between late 30's early 40's (presumably depending on the poll)
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,771
    Roger said:

    I just heard on radio that Obama has left office with approval ratings of 55%. Trump is entering with ratings of somewhere between late 30's early 40's (presumably depending on the poll)

    Donald Trump got very lucky. Hillary Clinton was a dreadful, dreadful candidate. Against a centrist Democrat he would have been spanked. (As it was, he lost the popular vote by 2%.)
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    I've just looked up 'Golden Shower'.

    The urban dictionary said the meaning is pretty fluid...
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    rcs1000 said:

    Roger said:

    I just heard on radio that Obama has left office with approval ratings of 55%. Trump is entering with ratings of somewhere between late 30's early 40's (presumably depending on the poll)

    Donald Trump got very lucky. Hillary Clinton was a dreadful, dreadful candidate. Against a centrist Democrat he would have been spanked. (As it was, he lost the popular vote by 2%.)
    Did you say "spanked" ? He might even have liked it.
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    Penthouse Verified account
    @Penthouse

    ATTENTION:
    We are offering up to $1-million for exclusive rights to the FSB tapes of Donald Trump's #goldenshowers

    https://twitter.com/Penthouse/status/819012191793745920
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    Tweets from penthouse on PB? What has the world come to...
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    It's got legs because it's believable. There's a nice irony that his supporters chanting 'Drain The Swamp' and 'Lock Her Up' relied on the same principle
  • William_HWilliam_H Posts: 346

    Penthouse Verified account
    @Penthouse

    ATTENTION:
    We are offering up to $1-million for exclusive rights to the FSB tapes of Donald Trump's #goldenshowers

    https://twitter.com/Penthouse/status/819012191793745920

    If the tapes were real they'd be worth way more than that, surely
This discussion has been closed.