politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Corbyn and his party’s biggest challenge is making headway amo

nielh said:

If its of interest to anyone
Talking to a friend in the labour party today. Hearing lots of reports of longstanding members who have finally had it with Corbyn and cancelling their direct debit/tearing up their membership cards.
£60 per year too high a price to pay to stay in the party to support a leader they dont agree with. One guy is starting a part time masters and downgrading his membership to student membership which is only £1 per month.
These are all middle class public sector professionals.
People seem to be resigned to the death of the labour party.

Assuming that is representative of long-standing members in general (and it sounds plausible enough), it might of course mean that it's becoming even harder for the sane wing of Labour to get rid of Corbyn.

SeanT said:

You [Topping] have no imagination. You know the price of everything and the moral value of fuck all.

The moral value of Brexit is identical to the moral value of the great European Union dream, i.e zilch.

Anorak said:

williamglenn said:

SeanT said:

williamglenn said:

SeanT said:

I guess it must do, by law. But when is that? What's the process? Does a PM go to Brussels to sign a document, as with Lisbon? I'm not expecting you to know, just curious.

This bet focuses the mind on the practicalities, which is good.

I believe the document gets approved by QMV in the Council and needs 'consent' from the Parliament (presumably a majority vote). It doesn't require ratification like a treaty. To actually extend the negotiation period requires unanimity in the Council. There will be political pressure on the EU side to get it out of the way before the next European elections so it doesn't negatively impact them.

Are we agreed on this definition?

But what is our precise definition? When Strasbourg votes, or Westminster? Or what?

I'm not trying to be awkward, just removing grey areas which could cause grief. I know we have downscaled our bet, but a thousand quid is still a thousand quid, not to be sniffed at. It's the cost of a decent lunch for two at Kaspar's in the Savoy.

I think David Herdson nails it here. It would be the earlier of the date in the agreement, or 2 years after Article 50 if there's no agreement or extension.

http://politicalbetting.vanillaforums.com/discussion/comment/1394765/#Comment_1394765

Basically you win if there's an amicable divorce, or if there's a car crash with no deal, and I win if negotiations go into 2020, or Brexit is abandoned, or a long-term transition that involves staying in the EU past the end of 2019.

Why not agree on an arbitrator/judge from the site who's decision will be final in the event of a dispute.

No shortage of lawyers here. Or of generally fair-minded people, for that matter.

Does @PeterthePunter no longer adjudicate?

Good evening again, everyone.

foxinsoxuk said:

SeanT said:

Question for PB Remainers: aren't you even SLIGHTLY excited by the possibilities of Brexit? The reviving of Westminster politics? The new and unexpected potentialities?

I get that convinced EU-federalists like williamglenn see Brexit as an evil, from which nothing good can come, which only destroys his European identity, but the more moderate Remainers must, surely, occasionally, thrill to the idea of freedom, or at least see the good in repatriating all these powers to our Mother of Parliaments?

No?

No, for the fairly straightforward reason that I have never felt my freedom restricted by being part of the EU, indeed being a member gave me freedoms and rights (such as freedom of movement) that I very likely will shortly lose.

During my adult lifetime I have only be governed by a Westminster government that I voted for in 1997-2003; though I did part support the coalition. I am not at all enthused about being ruled by the excreable Theresa May and her half witted henchmen for the forseable future.

Brexit will be crap and diminish our country internationally, as well as a place to live.

I'm sad that you should be resorting to soothsaying when you have divine guidance to hand, or have I got that wrong?

Y0kel said:

ReggieCide said:

Y0kel said:

Is it just me or does Corbyn need less advisors and maybe more needing a care worker to help the guy when he gets confused?

Off topic, I know some suggest I'm a bit wacko when I claim that the Russians have Trump in their pocket with info about him both regarding his links to Russian money and his leisure activities.

This evening CNN are reporting that there is credible info that the Russians have compromising financial and personal info on Donald.

Question is, who is leaking this stuff?

"leaking" or "making it up". How does CNN determine credibility? Did Hilary miss a trick? I've heard it said she does occasionally

This shit isn't made up, I was posting about it before the election even happened. In fact the two things I suggested were financial links to dodgy money and Trump's leisure pursuits. Intelligence on Trumps links to Russia goes back a fair while, like years. Thats what is coming out now.

It doesn't ring true for the simple reason that the Russians had no expectation that Trump would become President. Yes, you might expect their intelligence services to have a file on a prominent American businessman and celebrity, but even after he ran and won the nomination their expectation was that Hillary would win.

SeanT said:

foxinsoxuk said:

SeanT said:

Question for PB Remainers: aren't you even SLIGHTLY excited by the possibilities of Brexit? The reviving of Westminster politics? The new and unexpected potentialities?

I get that convinced EU-federalists like williamglenn see Brexit as an evil, from which nothing good can come, which only destroys his European identity, but the more moderate Remainers must, surely, occasionally, thrill to the idea of freedom, or at least see the good in repatriating all these powers to our Mother of Parliaments?

No?

No, for the fairly straightforward reason that I have never felt my freedom restricted by being part of the EU, indeed being a member gave me freedoms and rights (such as freedom of movement) that I very likely will shortly lose.

During my adult lifetime I have only be governed by a Westminster government that I voted for in 1997-2003; though I did part support the coalition. I am not at all enthused about being ruled by the excreable Theresa May and her half witted henchmen for the forseable future.

Brexit will be crap and diminish our country internationally, as well as a place to live.

During my life I have seen my precious British democracy slowly and surely eroded, and my identity corroded, until my nation state was on the verge of conking out as an independent entity - and this is no exaggeration, as we now see how difficult it is to withdraw from the EU - despite so many assurances (from your side) that it was just a "trading bloc", and the EU Constitution was just a "tidying up exercise". This same EU Constitution which now provides us with Article 50.

I despise your europhile beliefs, despise your damnable arrogance, and I am glad you are being deprived of these freedoms you love. You guys won through lies for fifty years. Now we're winning. HAH.

Bollocks

SeanT said:

All we need now is a mutually acceptable adjudicator - a Peter the Punter figure (where is he?!) - and we are good to go.

You can email him

williamglenn said:

Y0kel said:

ReggieCide said:

Y0kel said:

Is it just me or does Corbyn need less advisors and maybe more needing a care worker to help the guy when he gets confused?

Off topic, I know some suggest I'm a bit wacko when I claim that the Russians have Trump in their pocket with info about him both regarding his links to Russian money and his leisure activities.

This evening CNN are reporting that there is credible info that the Russians have compromising financial and personal info on Donald.

Question is, who is leaking this stuff?

"leaking" or "making it up". How does CNN determine credibility? Did Hilary miss a trick? I've heard it said she does occasionally

This shit isn't made up, I was posting about it before the election even happened. In fact the two things I suggested were financial links to dodgy money and Trump's leisure pursuits. Intelligence on Trumps links to Russia goes back a fair while, like years. Thats what is coming out now.

It doesn't ring true for the simple reason that the Russians had no expectation that Trump would become President. Yes, you might expect their intelligence services to have a file on a prominent American businessman and celebrity, but even after he ran and won the nomination their expectation was that Hillary would win.

A file and compromising material are very different.

Chris_A said:

SeanT said:

Question for PB Remainers: aren't you even SLIGHTLY excited by the possibilities of Brexit? The reviving of Westminster politics? The new and unexpected potentialities?

I get that convinced EU-federalists like williamglenn see Brexit as an evil, from which nothing good can come, which only destroys his European identity, but the more moderate Remainers must, surely, occasionally, thrill to the idea of freedom, or at least see the good in repatriating all these powers to our Mother of Parliaments?

No?

Absolutely not. I have gained no freedoms and will lose many.

The biggest freedom I have lost is that of not having to worry about our future peace.

I can't think of any freedom that I will lose, due to Brexit.

chestnut said:

The more vociferous the complaints about Brexit, the more likely it is that the complainant is losing big time.

In a few years Brexit Britain will be like SeanT, lying in a pool of vomit in piss soaked trousers drunkenly boasting how great it is.

SeanT said:

foxinsoxuk said:

SeanT said:

Chris_A said:

SeanT said:

foxinsoxuk said:

SeanT said:

Question for PB Remainers: aren't you even SLIGHTLY excited by the possibilities of Brexit? The reviving of Westminster politics? The new and unexpected potentialities?

I get that convinced EU-federalists like williamglenn see Brexit as an evil, from which nothing good can come, which only destroys his European identity, but the more moderate Remainers must, surely, occasionally, thrill to the idea of freedom, or at least see the good in repatriating all these powers to our Mother of Parliaments?

No?

No, for the fairly straightforward reason that I have never felt my freedom restricted by being part of the EU, indeed being a member gave me freedoms and rights (such as freedom of movement) that I very likely will shortly lose.

During my adult lifetime I have only be governed by a Westminster government that I voted for in 1997-2003; though I did part support the coalition. I am not at all enthused about being ruled by the excreable Theresa May and her half witted henchmen for the forseable future.

Brexit will be crap and diminish our country internationally, as well as a place to live.

During my life I have seen my precious British democracy slowly and surely eroded, and my identity corroded, until my nation state was on the verge of conking out as an independent entity - and this is no exaggeration, as we now see how difficult it is to withdraw from the EU - despite so many assurances (from your side) that it was just a "trading bloc", and the EU Constitution was just a "tidying up exercise". This same EU Constitution which now provides us with Article 50.

I despise your europhile beliefs, despise your damnable arrogance, and I am glad you are being deprived of these freedoms you love. You guys won through lies for fifty years. Now we're winning. HAH.

Bollocks

We're still winning. HAH. You LOST. Your side LOST. For the first time in five decades. YOU LOST LOST LOST

CHORTLE

Nope. Both sides lost, This is not some playground in which to enjoy schadenfreude, this is a very divided country, that may well fracture further.

I do find it hard to grasp your mindset. Whereas I can grasp the mindset of a Corbynite, or a Green, or a hardline feminist, even if I find their beliefs absurd or silly or even dangerous.

I do not understand an intelligent person who cannot see ANY potential upside to Brexit. Bizarre.

Your brain is damaged. It is deficient. A cognitive deficit is at work.

What will I gain? A Union Jack wrapped turd.

williamglenn said:

Y0kel said:

ReggieCide said:

Y0kel said:

Is it just me or does Corbyn need less advisors and maybe more needing a care worker to help the guy when he gets confused?

Off topic, I know some suggest I'm a bit wacko when I claim that the Russians have Trump in their pocket with info about him both regarding his links to Russian money and his leisure activities.

This evening CNN are reporting that there is credible info that the Russians have compromising financial and personal info on Donald.

Question is, who is leaking this stuff?

"leaking" or "making it up". How does CNN determine credibility? Did Hilary miss a trick? I've heard it said she does occasionally

This shit isn't made up, I was posting about it before the election even happened. In fact the two things I suggested were financial links to dodgy money and Trump's leisure pursuits. Intelligence on Trumps links to Russia goes back a fair while, like years. Thats what is coming out now.

It doesn't ring true for the simple reason that the Russians had no expectation that Trump would become President. Yes, you might expect their intelligence services to have a file on a prominent American businessman and celebrity, but even after he ran and won the nomination their expectation was that Hillary would win.

William, read the CNN piece, authored in part by Carl Bernstein no less. You have your head in the sand.

As for leaking, the outgoing administration, Republican anti-Russia types (McCain) and the spooks themselves all have an incentive to leak.

Question is what can be done about it?

Gardenwalker said:

williamglenn said:

Y0kel said:

ReggieCide said:

Y0kel said:

Is it just me or does Corbyn need less advisors and maybe more needing a care worker to help the guy when he gets confused?

Off topic, I know some suggest I'm a bit wacko when I claim that the Russians have Trump in their pocket with info about him both regarding his links to Russian money and his leisure activities.

This evening CNN are reporting that there is credible info that the Russians have compromising financial and personal info on Donald.

Question is, who is leaking this stuff?

"leaking" or "making it up". How does CNN determine credibility? Did Hilary miss a trick? I've heard it said she does occasionally

This shit isn't made up, I was posting about it before the election even happened. In fact the two things I suggested were financial links to dodgy money and Trump's leisure pursuits. Intelligence on Trumps links to Russia goes back a fair while, like years. Thats what is coming out now.

It doesn't ring true for the simple reason that the Russians had no expectation that Trump would become President. Yes, you might expect their intelligence services to have a file on a prominent American businessman and celebrity, but even after he ran and won the nomination their expectation was that Hillary would win.

William, read the CNN piece, authored in part by Carl Bernstein no less. You have your head in the sand.

As for leaking, the outgoing administration, Republican anti-Russia types (McCain) and the spooks themselves all have an incentive to leak.

Question is what can be done about it?

Can you post a link to the piece plse?

https://twitter.com/bbcsport/status/818955593411100672

FrancisUrquhart

The US intelligence agencies didn't think much of Clinton either and they did leak out in previous months about the email server story. Clinton committed a gross breach of security and tried to brush it off as not important.

It was, however, one agency, the FBI that made that move regarding the Clinton investigation at that time, more particularly its director. The others stayed out at that point because they didnt see it as particularly good timing or practice.

Strictly, the FBI is not an intelligence agency. Its political intelligence wing is counter intelligence. There is also no suggestion that they sent that out, rather it was the policing side of the FBI that did it and they are a very distinct outfit from the CI side of the house. The CI side of the house knew about Trump and his links to interesting people and resources, for a long time but much of the intelligence on exactly what the details of Russian intelligence position vis a vis Donald was collected by the other agencies and that isn't just shared in totality with the FBI, though they certainly know more about it now.

Bear in mind too that Comey's move caused a fairly large shitstorm within the FBI.

Finally, within US intelligence, including at the top, there are plenty of Republicans. This is not a political allegiance issue which some suggested of the Director of the FBI and his infamous letter regarding the Clinton investigation. I'm not wholly certain thats the top and bottom of his move but it still hangs out there.

Trump's situation has precisely nothing to do with party politics. Nada. Clinton doesn't have links to Russian intelligence either.

Ishmael_Z said:

Y0kel said:

williamglenn said:

Y0kel said:

ReggieCide said:

Y0kel said:

Is it just me or does Corbyn need less advisors and maybe more needing a care worker to help the guy when he gets confused?

Off topic, I know some suggest I'm a bit wacko when I claim that the Russians have Trump in their pocket with info about him both regarding his links to Russian money and his leisure activities.

This evening CNN are reporting that there is credible info that the Russians have compromising financial and personal info on Donald.

Question is, who is leaking this stuff?

"leaking" or "making it up". How does CNN determine credibility? Did Hilary miss a trick? I've heard it said she does occasionally

This shit isn't made up, I was posting about it before the election even happened. In fact the two things I suggested were financial links to dodgy money and Trump's leisure pursuits. Intelligence on Trumps links to Russia goes back a fair while, like years. Thats what is coming out now.

It doesn't ring true for the simple reason that the Russians had no expectation that Trump would become President. Yes, you might expect their intelligence services to have a file on a prominent American businessman and celebrity, but even after he ran and won the nomination their expectation was that Hillary would win.

A file and compromising material are very different.

But the vulnerability of a presidential candidate and an actual president are also very different. Remember when Reagan and then Blair were called Teflon because no scandal ever stuck to them? It turns out it wasn't anything special about them, it's just that you can get away with pretty much anything these days. If the KGB have footage of Trump getting jiggy with a goat, so what? It might have damaged his campaign (though the pussy grabbing banter didn't) but why should it worry him in office?

Quite. To be blackmailed, you need to be blackmailable. Which implies a capacity for shame and humiliation. So far, not characteristics in much evidence vis-a-vis the President-elect.

SeanT said:

Sean_F said:

SeanT said:

foxinsoxuk said:

SeanT said:

Chris_A said:

SeanT said:

foxinsoxuk said:

SeanT said:

Question for PB Remainers: aren't you even SLIGHTLY excited by the possibilities of Brexit? The reviving of Westminster politics? The new and unexpected potentialities?

I get

No?

No, for th
Brexit will be crap and diminish our country internationally, as well as a place to live.

Duringle beliefs, despise your damnable arrogance, and I am glad you are being deprived of these freedoms you love. You guys won through lies for fifty years. Now we're winning. HAH.

Bollocks

We're still winning. HAH. You LOST. Your side LOST. For the first time in five decades. YOU LOST LOST LOST

CHORTLE

Nope. Both sides lost, This is not some playground in which to enjoy schadenfreude, this is a very divided country, that may well fracture further.

I do find it hard to grasp your mindset. Whereas I can grasp the mindset of a Corbynite, or a Green, or a hardline feminist, even if I find their beliefs absurd or silly or even dangerous.

I do not understand an intelligent person who cannot see ANY potential upside to Brexit. Bizarre.

Your brain is damaged. It is deficient. A cognitive deficit is at work.

It's just about competing world outlooks. One side favours tradition, sovereignty, and democracy. The other favours internationalism, integration, and free migration.

No, I think they really are stupid in a special way, people like foxinsox.

Take me as a counter example. I CAN see the potential benefits of the EU, in theory. I can be persuaded of internationalism, the greater good, free movement, and integration. The trouble was, in practise, the EU was a bit of a nightmare, from the euro to free movement of migrants to economic stagnancy (outside Germany) it really hasn't worked. I don't even believe it kept the peace. NATO kept the peace. And democratically the EU was disgusting.

But on the other side? No. THEY can't see ANY upside to Brexit, to regaining independence, they can't see how bringing power closer to the people again could be good.

Europhiles like foxinsox or Topping are a kind of educated moron. A matriculated fuckwit. I will enjoy their anguish over the coming months and years.

We haven't regained independence. We still pool sovereignty by being members of organisations like UN, NATO etc. You Brexiteers are obsessed by some imaginary sovereignty which you reckon we had and lost and have now regained. As I said below it is complete and utter bollocks.

Various Brits seem to be intimately involved in the Trump allegations covered by CNN. Apparently the original source was a former MI6 agent, and then information was passed by a former British ambassador to Russia to John McCain.

SeanT said:

Question for PB Remainers: aren't you even SLIGHTLY excited by the possibilities of Brexit? The reviving of Westminster politics? The new and unexpected potentialities?

I get that convinced EU-federalists like williamglenn see Brexit as an evil, from which nothing good can come, which only destroys his European identity, but the more moderate Remainers must, surely, occasionally, thrill to the idea of freedom, or at least see the good in repatriating all these powers to our Mother of Parliaments?

No?

There are some things I am looking forward to: removal of the cookie law, greater legalisation of and acceptance of genetically-modified organisms, a repudiation of the Green thesis that demand must be actively managed and energy production deliberately reduced. But to be honest, that's not a lot. Repatriating powers is not enough if we're too poor to afford options.

https://twitter.com/carlgardner/status/818963254588436484

I hadn't realised until recently that Germany also receives a rebate of its EU contribution, and other counties too...

williamglenn said:

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/carlgardner/status/818963254588436484

"Perverted sexual acts which have been arranged/monitored by the FSB"

Given Casablancas connection, paedophila?

williamglenn said:

Y0kel said:

williamglenn said:

Y0kel said:

ReggieCide said:

Y0kel said:

Is it just me or does Corbyn need less advisors and maybe more needing a care worker to help the guy when he gets confused?

Off topic, I know some suggest I'm a bit wacko when I claim that the Russians have Trump in their pocket with info about him both regarding his links to Russian money and his leisure activities.

This evening CNN are reporting that there is credible info that the Russians have compromising financial and personal info on Donald.

Question is, who is leaking this stuff?

"leaking" or "making it up". How does CNN determine credibility? Did Hilary miss a trick? I've heard it said she does occasionally

This shit isn't made up, I was posting about it before the election even happened. In fact the two things I suggested were financial links to dodgy money and Trump's leisure pursuits. Intelligence on Trumps links to Russia goes back a fair while, like years. Thats what is coming out now.

It doesn't ring true for the simple reason that the Russians had no expectation that Trump would become President. Yes, you might expect their intelligence services to have a file on a prominent American businessman and celebrity, but even after he ran and won the nomination their expectation was that Hillary would win.

A file and compromising material are very different.

Yes but my point is why would they make Trump aware of that during the campaign? (The idea that they pressured him to run in the first place is absurd.)

In addition we've heard it all before about compromising material on Trump. To the extent that it existed, he dealt with it and bounced back.

Actually no we hadn't. No major organ had it or ran with it because US intelligence didn't ship it out. They are now.

Said it ages ago, he is in over his head when it comes to the Russians.

There are leaked documents coming out now. I'm not a huge fan of this kind of stuff because I can only tell how legit it is on the basis of what I'm aware of already.

Might make interesting reading though.

Chris_A said:

SeanT said:

No, I think they really are stupid in a special way, people like foxinsox.

Take me as a counter example. I CAN see the potential benefits of the EU, in theory. I can be persuaded of internationalism, the greater good, free movement, and integration. The trouble was, in practise, the EU was a bit of a nightmare, from the euro to free movement of migrants to economic stagnancy (outside Germany) it really hasn't worked. I don't even believe it kept the peace. NATO kept the peace. And democratically the EU was disgusting.

But on the other side? No. THEY can't see ANY upside to Brexit, to regaining independence, they can't see how bringing power closer to the people again could be good.

Europhiles like foxinsox or Topping are a kind of educated moron. A matriculated fuckwit. I will enjoy their anguish over the coming months and years.

We haven't regained independence. We still pool sovereignty by being members of organisations like UN, NATO etc. You Brexiteers are obsessed by some imaginary sovereignty which you reckon we had and lost and have now regained. As I said below it is complete and utter bollocks.

C'mon, Chris A, that's stretching it a bit. What sovereignty have we ceded to NATO?

Sure, there is a smidgen of pooled sovereignty in the UN system. But only a smidgen, as shown by how frequently Member States totally ignore its rulings. As for treaties, we sign up to them on an a la carte basis and can leave them, usually on a dime, if they no longer serve our interest. And even if we don't leave in accordance with their terms, there is in essence no comeback.

In contrast, the EU has a direct and very binding impact on the areas of its competence and sovereignty is ceded in a very real sense, and, as we are finding out, deciding no longer to be bound by terms imposed from Brussels is not as simple as the British people or its Parliament making the decision to do so.

Chris_A said:

Essexit said:

Chris_A said:

SeanT said:

Question for PB Remainers: aren't you even SLIGHTLY excited by the possibilities of Brexit? The reviving of Westminster politics? The new and unexpected potentialities?

I get that convinced EU-federalists like williamglenn see Brexit as an evil, from which nothing good can come, which only destroys his European identity, but the more moderate Remainers must, surely, occasionally, thrill to the idea of freedom, or at least see the good in repatriating all these powers to our Mother of Parliaments?

No?

Absolutely not. I have gained no freedoms and will lose many.

The biggest freedom I have lost is that of not having to worry about our future peace.

Blimey. Do you actually believe that forcing divergent countries into a union was really going to preserve peace, or that Britain's departure will somehow cause WW3?

We will have to wait and see. The peace has been kept for the last 70 years by the EU.

Nuclear weapons have kept the peace for 70 years. Do you seriously believe that France and Germany would have gone to war with each other again without the EU. The potential for world conflict was the world not Alsace-Lorraine.

PAW said:

I hadn't realised until recently that Germany also receives a rebate of its EU contribution, and other counties too...

I thought the UK was the only country with a rebate, and a cursory google search wasn't too helpful.

Essexit said:

...or that Britain's departure will somehow cause WW3?

Well, you now have an unparalleled opportunity to find out...

Sean_F said:

SeanT said:

Sean_F said:

SeanT said:

foxinsoxuk said:

SeanT said:

Chris_A said:

SeanT said:

foxinsoxuk said:

SeanT said:

Question for PB Remainers: aren't you even SLIGHTLY excited by the possibilities of Brexit? The reviving of Westminster politics? The new and unexpected potentialities?

I get

No?

No, for th
Brexit will be crap and diminish our country internationally, as well as a place to live.

Duringle beliefs, despise your damnable arrogance, and I am glad you are being deprived of these freedoms you love. You guys won through lies for fifty years. Now we're winning. HAH.

Bollocks

We're still winning. HAH. You LOST. Your side LOST. For the first time in five decades. YOU LOST LOST LOST

CHORTLE

Nope. Both sides lost, This is not some playground in which to enjoy schadenfreude, this is a very divided country, that may well fracture further.

I do find it hard to grasp your mindset. Whereas I can grasp the mindset of a Corbynite, or a Green, or a hardline feminist, even if I find their beliefs absurd or silly or even dangerous.

I do not understand an intelligent person who cannot see ANY potential upside to Brexit. Bizarre.

Your brain is damaged. It is deficient. A cognitive deficit is at work.

It's just about competing world outlooks. One side favours tradition, sovereignty, and democracy. The other favours internationalism, integration, and free migration.

No, I think they really are stupid in a special way, people like foxinsox.

Take me as a counter example. I CAN see the potential benefits of the EU, in theory. I can be persuaded of internationalism, the greater good, free movement, and integration. The trouble was, in practise, the EU was a bit of a nightmare, from the euro to free movement of migrants to economic stagnancy (outside Germany) it really hasn't worked. I don't even believe it kept the peace. NATO kept the peace. And democratically the EU was disgusting.

But on the other side? No. THEY can't see ANY upside to Brexit, to regaining independence, they can't see how bringing power closer to the people again could be good.

Europhiles like foxinsox or Topping are a kind of educated moron. A matriculated fuckwit. I will enjoy their anguish over the coming months and years.

It's not a case of being stupid. They just see no merit in the things which you and I value.

There is some truth to that, but you see nomerit in the things that I value.

It is why the referendum has been so divisive and why the rifts will take a generation to heal.

SeanT said:

Sean_F said:

SeanT said:

Sean_F said:

SeanT said:

foxinsoxuk said:

SeanT said:

Chris_A said:

SeanT said:

foxinsoxuk said:

SeanT said:

Question for PB Remainers: aren't you even SLIGHTLY excited by the possibilities of Brexit? The reviving of Westminster politics? The new and unexpected potentialities?

I get

No?

No, for th
Brexit will be crap and diminish our country internationally, as well as a place to live.

Duringle beliefs, despise your damnable arrogance, and I am glad you are being deprived of these freedoms you love. You guys won through lies for fifty years. Now we're winning. HAH.

Bollocks

We're still winning. HAH. You LOST. Your side LOST. For the first time in five decades. YOU LOST LOST LOST

CHORTLE

Nope. Both sides lost, This is not some playground in which to enjoy schadenfreude, this is a very divided country, that may well fracture further.

I do finnitive deficit is at work.

It's just about competing world outlooks. One side favours tradition, sovereignty, and democracy. The other favours internationalism, integration, and free migration.

No, I think they really are stupid in a special way, people like foxinsox.

Take mehe coming months and years.

It's not a case of being stupid. They just see no merit in the things which you and I value.

Including: democracy. It is now obvious these cunts like foxinsox never really believed in it.

Despicable. I can't forget the Guardian commenter who called ALL Leave voters "knuckle dragging monsters", just this morning. Another one called them "Northern thickos" and "Neanderthals".

17 million people trusting in democracy, and trudging to the polling booth to do their democratic duty, and set their country on the right path (as they see it) - these fellow Britons are "monsters", simply for disagreeing? MONSTERS??

It's a species of evil. Hardcore Remainers are actually evil. They need punishing. They need the suffering that is coming their way.

Matthew Parris, in his interview with Matt Ridley, characterised it as a fight between good and evil, with evil winning.

That is unhinged.

@SeanT

This debate is basically a waste of time, we don't know what Brexit will be like because it is tied up with too much uncertainty about everything else that is happening in the world at the moment. It may be good and it may be bad, its probably best to be open minded about it. But a brexit that is "good" for us and bad for the EU is not good in my opinion becuase our fate is tied up with the continent of Europe as it always has been.

From a purely selfish personal perspective I would have preferred the continuity remain position because it did provide for things like the ability to retire in Europe, the possibility of transferring things like healthcare, national insurance and benefits and the right to live freely in Europe without the hindrance of visas and petty daily bureaucracy. For someone on a modest wage with an EU spouse this is all pretty important stuff, more important even than abstract questions about sovereignty particuarly when 95% of the people I have ever met in my life have little or nothing to say about politics, nation or identity.

I don't think that your enlightened democracy will arrive but I live in genuine hope. For what its worth I think we will get bounced in to ill advised trade deals that end up ceding far more soveriegnty that we ceded to the EU and we will get bogged down in distractions like scottish independence for many years to come and we won't make much progress at all but as ever i'm happy to be corrected by events.

In general I struggle really to see what makes us here in the UK special and in many respects I think that other northern European countries are way ahead of us on many issues. They build better housing with proper playspace, bins and cycle stores, have better infrastructure, have fewer people in their jails etc. Then again I do also feel like this is my home and I feel an emotional attachment to it, and I don't want a life in exile even if it would be extremely easy for me to go down that road.

The Brexit problem has been over our heads for four decades, I agree it has been conclusively resolved with the referendum result so now that has to be implemented. Maybe we will be ultimately humbled as a nation by the reality of Brexit, but before that can happen it needs to be put in to effect.

williamglenn said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Not a good start....

The report misspells the name of one company, “Alpha Group,” throughout. It is Alfa Group. The report says the settlement of Barvikha, outside Moscow, is “reserved for the residences of the top leadership and their close associates.” It is not reserved for anyone, and is also populated by the very wealthy.

And this is supposed to be from one of our spooks...they have clearly lowered the bar to entry these days!

I can't imagine any of this will endear the UK to Trump...

Can't wait until the PM is asked her opinion of golden showers.

Wait -- are we still at the front of the queue?

Chris_A said:

RobD said:

Chris_A said:

We haven't regained independence. We still pool sovereignty by being members of organisations like UN, NATO etc. You Brexiteers are obsessed by some imaginary sovereignty which you reckon we had and lost and have now regained. As I said below it is complete and utter bollocks.

We will have regained some sovereignty once we leave, surely?

Some but we will still be bound by every other international treaty we have entered.

Take energy policy. We couldn't dig out and burn the hundreds of years of coal reserves we have under our feet because we are bound by our obligations to the Kyoto Treaty,

You join a club, union, anything for mutual benefit fully realising that you will have both rights and obligations. If you don't your utterly stupid, but that probably sums up a large number of Leavers.

Who is arguing we don't have rights and obligations? Once we leave the EU, some sovereignty will be returned to Westminster.

Y0kel said:

Gardenwalker said:

ReggieCide said:

Gardenwalker said:

williamglenn said:

Y0kel said:

ReggieCide said:

Y0kel said:

Is it just me or does Corbyn need less advisors and maybe more needing a care worker to help the guy when he gets confused?

Off topic, I know some suggest I'm a bit wacko when I claim that the Russians have Trump in their pocket with info about him both regarding his links to Russian money and his leisure activities.

This evening CNN are reporting that there is credible info that the Russians have compromising financial and personal info on Donald.

Question is, who is leaking this stuff?

"leaking" or "making it up". How does CNN determine credibility? Did Hilary miss a trick? I've heard it said she does occasionally

This shit isn't made up, I was posting about it before the election even happened. In fact the two things I suggested were financial links to dodgy money and Trump's leisure pursuits. Intelligence on Trumps links to Russia goes back a fair while, like years. Thats what is coming out now.

It doesn't ring true for the simple reason that the Russians had no expectation that Trump would become President. Yes, you might expect their intelligence services to have a file on a prominent American businessman and celebrity, but even after he ran and won the nomination their expectation was that Hillary would win.

William, read the CNN piece, authored in part by Carl Bernstein no less. You have your head in the sand.

As for leaking, the outgoing administration, Republican anti-Russia types (McCain) and the spooks themselves all have an incentive to leak.

Question is what can be done about it?

Can you post a link to the piece plse?

Struggling on a mobile en route to JFK.
But just go to CNN.com, top story.

Edit: interesting statement from Russian embassy to UK about forthcoming "witch hunt" including speculation that UK may relitigate Europe ref, citing Russian interference in last.

https://t.co/FIvBFndigu?ssr=true

Our wee friends down at the donut may play a very interesting cameo shortly.

Indeed. We seem to be right in the thick of this.

Christ only knows what Johnson conveyed to Trump's people yesterday.

https://twitter.com/cjterry/status/818966658396160000

Dura_Ace said:

SeanT said:

Question for PB Remainers: aren't you even SLIGHTLY excited by the possibilities of Brexit? The reviving of Westminster politics? The new and unexpected potentialities?

I get that convinced EU-federalists like williamglenn see Brexit as an evil, from which nothing good can come, which only destroys his European identity, but the more moderate Remainers must, surely, occasionally, thrill to the idea of freedom, or at least see the good in repatriating all these powers to our Mother of Parliaments?

No?

No, it's an intellectually bankrupt retreat to reactionary values. I hope and pray it's a complete disaster that results in economic ruin and the disintegration of the UK.

LOL - precious, much?

Caution notice on that leaked document doing the rounds.

Haven't read it yet and probably won't in a hurry. The reported highlights aren't anything new in knowledge terms (leisure activities) but be careful with the absolute detail.

RobD said:

Chris_A said:

RobD said:

Chris_A said:

We haven't regained independence. We still pool sovereignty by being members of organisations like UN, NATO etc. You Brexiteers are obsessed by some imaginary sovereignty which you reckon we had and lost and have now regained. As I said below it is complete and utter bollocks.

We will have regained some sovereignty once we leave, surely?

Some but we will still be bound by every other international treaty we have entered.

Take energy policy. We couldn't dig out and burn the hundreds of years of coal reserves we have under our feet because we are bound by our obligations to the Kyoto Treaty,

You join a club, union, anything for mutual benefit fully realising that you will have both rights and obligations. If you don't your utterly stupid, but that probably sums up a large number of Leavers.

Who is arguing we don't have rights and obligations? Once we leave the EU, some sovereignty will be returned to Westminster.

Then you agree - we will lose rights by leaving.

As to the comment that it will take a generation to resolve, I will never be reconciled to the numpties led like sheep into the voting booths to vote Leave.

Chris_A said:

RobD said:

Chris_A said:

RobD said:

Chris_A said:

We haven't regained independence. We still pool sovereignty by being members of organisations like UN, NATO etc. You Brexiteers are obsessed by some imaginary sovereignty which you reckon we had and lost and have now regained. As I said below it is complete and utter bollocks.

We will have regained some sovereignty once we leave, surely?

Some but we will still be bound by every other international treaty we have entered.

Take energy policy. We couldn't dig out and burn the hundreds of years of coal reserves we have under our feet because we are bound by our obligations to the Kyoto Treaty,

You join a club, union, anything for mutual benefit fully realising that you will have both rights and obligations. If you don't your utterly stupid, but that probably sums up a large number of Leavers.

Who is arguing we don't have rights and obligations? Once we leave the EU, some sovereignty will be returned to Westminster.

Then you agree - we will lose rights by leaving.

As to the comment that it will take a generation to resolve, I will never be reconciled to the numpties led like sheep into the voting booths to vote Leave.

Who argued we won't lose rights - of course we will. The right to freedom of movement (if we leave single market), right to have MEPs, right to have the EU flag on our driver's license.. etc etc

Chris_A said:

RobD said:

Chris_A said:

RobD said:

Chris_A said:

We haven't regained independence. We still pool sovereignty by being members of organisations like UN, NATO etc. You Brexiteers are obsessed by some imaginary sovereignty which you reckon we had and lost and have now regained. As I said below it is complete and utter bollocks.

We will have regained some sovereignty once we leave, surely?

Some but we will still be bound by every other international treaty we have entered.

Take energy policy. We couldn't dig out and burn the hundreds of years of coal reserves we have under our feet because we are bound by our obligations to the Kyoto Treaty,

You join a club, union, anything for mutual benefit fully realising that you will have both rights and obligations. If you don't your utterly stupid, but that probably sums up a large number of Leavers.

Who is arguing we don't have rights and obligations? Once we leave the EU, some sovereignty will be returned to Westminster.

Then you agree - we will lose rights by leaving.

As to the comment that it will take a generation to resolve, I will never be reconciled to the numpties led like sheep into the voting booths to vote Leave.

Who cares whether you're ever reconciled?

Gardenwalker said:

Y0kel said:

Gardenwalker said:

ReggieCide said:

Gardenwalker said:

williamglenn said:

Y0kel said:

ReggieCide said:

Y0kel said:

Is it just me or does Corbyn need less advisors and maybe more needing a care worker to help the guy when he gets confused?

Off topic, I know some suggest I'm a bit wacko when I claim that the Russians have Trump in their pocket with info about him both regarding his links to Russian money and his leisure activities.

This evening CNN are reporting that there is credible info that the Russians have compromising financial and personal info on Donald.

Question is, who is leaking this stuff?

"leaking" or "making it up". How does CNN determine credibility? Did Hilary miss a trick? I've heard it said she does occasionally

This shit isn't made up, I was posting about it before the election even happened. In fact the two things I suggested were financial links to dodgy money and Trump's leisure pursuits. Intelligence on Trumps links to Russia goes back a fair while, like years. Thats what is coming out now.

It doesn't ring true for the simple reason that the Russians had no expectation that Trump would become President. Yes, you might expect their intelligence services to have a file on a prominent American businessman and celebrity, but even after he ran and won the nomination their expectation was that Hillary would win.

William, read the CNN piece, authored in part by Carl Bernstein no less. You have your head in the sand.

As for leaking, the outgoing administration, Republican anti-Russia types (McCain) and the spooks themselves all have an incentive to leak.

Question is what can be done about it?

Can you post a link to the piece plse?

Struggling on a mobile en route to JFK.
But just go to CNN.com, top story.

Edit: interesting statement from Russian embassy to UK about forthcoming "witch hunt" including speculation that UK may relitigate Europe ref, citing Russian interference in last.

https://t.co/FIvBFndigu?ssr=true

Our wee friends down at the donut may play a very interesting cameo shortly.

Indeed. We seem to be right in the thick of this.

Christ only knows what Johnson conveyed to Trump's people yesterday.

Nothing they probably haven't been told already but Boris will of course have been given potted summaries of the take from GCHQ.

Things to remember: don't stay in the Ritz Carlton, Moscow.

Dura_Ace said:

SeanT said:

Question for PB Remainers: aren't you even SLIGHTLY excited by the possibilities of Brexit? The reviving of Westminster politics? The new and unexpected potentialities?

I get that convinced EU-federalists like williamglenn see Brexit as an evil, from which nothing good can come, which only destroys his European identity, but the more moderate Remainers must, surely, occasionally, thrill to the idea of freedom, or at least see the good in repatriating all these powers to our Mother of Parliaments?

No?

No, it's an intellectually bankrupt retreat to reactionary values. I hope and pray it's a complete disaster that results in economic ruin and the disintegration of the UK.

Just mad,completely mad.

Chris_A said:

SeanT said:

Sean_F said:

SeanT said:

foxinsoxuk said:

SeanT said:

Chris_A said:

SeanT said:

foxinsoxuk said:

SeanT said:

Question for PB Remainers: aren't you even SLIGHTLY excited by the possibilities of Brexit? The reviving of Westminster politics? The new and unexpected potentialities?

I get

No?

No, for th
Brexit will be crap and diminish our country internationally, as well as a place to live.

Duringle beliefs, despise your damnable arrogance, and I am glad you are being deprived of these freedoms you love. You guys won through lies for fifty years. Now we're winning. HAH.

Bollocks

We're still winning. HAH. You LOST. Your side LOST. For the first time in five decades. YOU LOST LOST LOST

CHORTLE

Your brain is damaged. It is deficient. A cognitive deficit is at work.

It's just about competing world outlooks. One side favours tradition, sovereignty, and democracy. The other favours internationalism, integration, and free migration.

No, I think they really are stupid in a special way, people like foxinsox.

Take me as a counter example. I CAN see the potential benefits of the EU, in theory. I can be persuaded of internationalism, the greater good, free movement, and integration. The trouble was, in practise, the EU was a bit of a nightmare, from the euro to free movement of migrants to economic stagnancy (outside Germany) it really hasn't worked. I don't even believe it kept the peace. NATO kept the peace. And democratically the EU was disgusting.

But on the other side? No. THEY can't see ANY upside to Brexit, to regaining independence, they can't see how bringing power closer to the people again could be good.

Europhiles like foxinsox or Topping are a kind of educated moron. A matriculated fuckwit. I will enjoy their anguish over the coming months and years.

We haven't regained independence. We still pool sovereignty by being members of organisations like UN, NATO etc. You Brexiteers are obsessed by some imaginary sovereignty which you reckon we had and lost and have now regained. As I said below it is complete and utter bollocks.

Actually Chris, it's posts like this that are utter bollox.

The crazy thing about the referendum is that the people who lost it still think they have some kind of casting vote that gives permission to those who won it to get on with it

Chris_A said:

Essexit said:

Chris_A said:

SeanT said:

Question for PB Remainers: aren't you even SLIGHTLY excited by the possibilities of Brexit? The reviving of Westminster politics? The new and unexpected potentialities?

I get that convinced EU-federalists like williamglenn see Brexit as an evil, from which nothing good can come, which only destroys his European identity, but the more moderate Remainers must, surely, occasionally, thrill to the idea of freedom, or at least see the good in repatriating all these powers to our Mother of Parliaments?

No?

Absolutely not. I have gained no freedoms and will lose many.

The biggest freedom I have lost is that of not having to worry about our future peace.

Blimey. Do you actually believe that forcing divergent countries into a union was really going to preserve peace, or that Britain's departure will somehow cause WW3?

We will have to wait and see. The peace has been kept for the last 70 years by the EU.

oh, this ones a keeper.

How do you think the EU did in the Ukraine?

nielh said:

@SeanT

This debate is basically a waste of time, we don't know what Brexit will be like because it is tied up with too much uncertainty about everything else that is happening in the world at the moment. It may be good and it may be bad, its probably best to be open minded about it. But a brexit that is "good" for us and bad for the EU is not good in my opinion becuase our fate is tied up with the continent of Europe as it always has been.

From a purely selfish personal perspective I would have preferred the continuity remain position because it did provide for things like the ability to retire in Europe, the possibility of transferring things like healthcare, national insurance and benefits and the right to live freely in Europe without the hindrance of visas and petty daily bureaucracy. For someone on a modest wage with an EU spouse this is all pretty important stuff, more important even than abstract questions about sovereignty particuarly when 95% of the people I have ever met in my life have little or nothing to say about politics, nation or identity.

I don't think that your enlightened democracy will arrive but I live in genuine hope. For what its worth I think we will get bounced in to ill advised trade deals that end up ceding far more soveriegnty that we ceded to the EU and we will get bogged down in distractions like scottish independence for many years to come and we won't make much progress at all but as ever i'm happy to be corrected by events.

In general I struggle really to see what makes us here in the UK special and in many respects I think that other northern European countries are way ahead of us on many issues. They build better housing with proper playspace, bins and cycle stores, have better infrastructure, have fewer people in their jails etc. Then again I do also feel like this is my home and I feel an emotional attachment to it, and I don't want a life in exile even if it would be extremely easy for me to go down that road.

The Brexit problem has been over our heads for four decades, I agree it has been conclusively resolved with the referendum result so now that has to be implemented. Maybe we will be ultimately humbled as a nation by the reality of Brexit, but before that can happen it needs to be put in to effect.

A rather more articulate and nuanced version of what I was saying.

Our relationship with the continent will never be conclusively resolved, it has been a feature of our islands politics for all recorded history.

Floater said:

Chris_A said:

Essexit said:

Chris_A said:

SeanT said:

Question for PB Remainers: aren't you even SLIGHTLY excited by the possibilities of Brexit? The reviving of Westminster politics? The new and unexpected potentialities?

I get that convinced EU-federalists like williamglenn see Brexit as an evil, from which nothing good can come, which only destroys his European identity, but the more moderate Remainers must, surely, occasionally, thrill to the idea of freedom, or at least see the good in repatriating all these powers to our Mother of Parliaments?

No?

Absolutely not. I have gained no freedoms and will lose many.

The biggest freedom I have lost is that of not having to worry about our future peace.

Blimey. Do you actually believe that forcing divergent countries into a union was really going to preserve peace, or that Britain's departure will somehow cause WW3?

We will have to wait and see. The peace has been kept for the last 70 years by the EU.

oh, this ones a keeper.

How do you think the EU did in the Ukraine?

Have I missed something, is Ukraine a member of the EU? You do realise that it's been an independent country for a good 25 years now hence the superfluous "the". Do try and keep up.