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  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited October 2013
    Wow - if anything says teaching is failing collectively - surely its this?

    "There are twice as many tutors as there are school teachers in England after an explosion in demand from parents for one to one help to support their children’s schooling. Booming demand for private tutors reflects a global trend rather than dissatisfaction with state schools, according to the head of a new trade body.

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/education/article3889395.ece
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    tim said:

    TGOHF said:

    TOPPING said:


    As long as Mark Carney is comfortable with it so am I.

    870K we're paying this man!
    You should have sent in your CV Sunil - pays 40% tax on that mind you so the treasury gets most of it back.


    You're claiming he fiddles his tax now, or is that just the hourly mistake?
    Are you claiming he gets no zero level tax allowance, no 20% rate allowance and no 40% allowance plus no tax free pension allowance ?

    He might pay 45% on the last £ but his average will be less.

    Have you ever seen a P60 ?



  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    'Help to Buy' looks like a popular policy.

    No wonder tim's so agitated.

    He's not been so cross since right to buy - he's on the side of slum landlords..

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    Cheers, TOPPING. Point taken that, on housing, 'I wouldn't have started from here'. But I'm not sure I share your confidence in Mark Carney. This is just based on my memory of a few headlines, but isn't Canada in the middle of - or coming down from - a definite housing boom?

    (Cross-posted with tim)

    Canada seems to have put in place mortgage regulation that will make a housing bubble less likely.

    "The maximum amortization period was dropped from 30 to 25 years, the maximim refinancing amount was reduced from 85 to 80%, the gross debt service ratio was brought to 39% and total debt service ratio to 44%, and the availability of government-backed mortgage insurance is restricted to homes with a value of $1 million or less."

    http://www.torontosun.com/2012/06/21/feds-to-tighten-mortgage-rules

    But yes, and no.

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/top-business-stories/does-canada-have-a-housing-bubble/article14158818/
    yes which makes sense (the policy tools). Since appointment and his (IMO) ill-advised rates/unemployment strategy, Carney has focused on non-monetary policy tools which would be used to address the emergence of any bubble-like tendencies.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Those pesky state owned banks bowing to the CoTE !

    Sky News Newsdesk ‏@SkyNewsBreak 14m
    Sky sources: HSBC set to join Government's #HelpToBuy mortgage guarantee scheme
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,263
    edited October 2013

    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    Burnham on 5 live says hes carrying on with his legal action.

    I just heard Andy Burnham on 5 Live as well. He was full of righteous indignation at what he called the Tories' (or Hunt's specifically, I can't remember) undermining of the NHS but IIRC didn't say a word about maintaining / raising patient care standards. It was all about defending the NHS as an institution.
    Of course the NHS is the poor little David and the patients are Goliath or something.

    Burnham is in the producers pocket on health.
    NHS = producers, patients = predators.
    Welcome aboard pb to SouthCoastKevin.

    Alan's post is actually quite illuminating. Labour voters mostly don't see a producer-provider divide in the NHS - their perception is of friendly staff trying to help them with the Government making life difficult. The more ideological Conservatives see it more like a business transaction, for which a clear producer-provider distinction is very important. Most Labour voters will think that Andy B defending the NHS institution is effectively the same as defending the interests of patients, a view that Alan seems to find baffling.

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    tim said:

    TGOHF said:

    tim said:

    TGOHF said:

    TOPPING said:


    As long as Mark Carney is comfortable with it so am I.

    870K we're paying this man!
    You should have sent in your CV Sunil - pays 40% tax on that mind you so the treasury gets most of it back.


    You're claiming he fiddles his tax now, or is that just the hourly mistake?
    Are you claiming he gets no zero level tax allowance, no 20% rate allowance and no 40% allowance plus no tax free pension allowance ?

    He might pay 45% on the last £ but his average will be less.

    Have you ever seen a P60 ?



    Not 40% though is it, work it out instead of digging yet another hole

    Want to bet it is closer to 40% than 45% ?



  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548
    TGOHF said:

    tim said:

    TGOHF said:

    tim said:

    TGOHF said:

    TOPPING said:


    As long as Mark Carney is comfortable with it so am I.

    870K we're paying this man!
    You should have sent in your CV Sunil - pays 40% tax on that mind you so the treasury gets most of it back.


    You're claiming he fiddles his tax now, or is that just the hourly mistake?
    Are you claiming he gets no zero level tax allowance, no 20% rate allowance and no 40% allowance plus no tax free pension allowance ?

    He might pay 45% on the last £ but his average will be less.

    Have you ever seen a P60 ?



    Not 40% though is it, work it out instead of digging yet another hole

    Want to bet it is closer to 40% than 45% ?



    I wouldn't, 43.4%
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    TGOHF said:

    tim said:

    TGOHF said:

    tim said:

    TGOHF said:

    TOPPING said:


    As long as Mark Carney is comfortable with it so am I.

    870K we're paying this man!
    You should have sent in your CV Sunil - pays 40% tax on that mind you so the treasury gets most of it back.


    You're claiming he fiddles his tax now, or is that just the hourly mistake?
    Are you claiming he gets no zero level tax allowance, no 20% rate allowance and no 40% allowance plus no tax free pension allowance ?

    He might pay 45% on the last £ but his average will be less.

    Have you ever seen a P60 ?



    Not 40% though is it, work it out instead of digging yet another hole

    Want to bet it is closer to 40% than 45% ?



    I wouldn't, 43.4%
    I assume he fills up his £50k pension allowance.

  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    OT This made me laugh - C4's SexBox set in other countries

    "France

    Three couples conduct an orgy in a box, watched by a man in a goatee and a woman who smokes unfiltered cigarettes. The sex is entirely unerotic, but then that's not the point of the show. Indeed, when you think about it, there's not much point to life. Goatee and the smoking woman discuss what Foucault would've made of all this and conclude that it might not be happening at all. The screen is filled with the word "fin".

    Russia

    Vladimir Putin makes love to three women in a box.

    North Korea

    Kim Jong-un makes love to three hundred women in a box. The winner gets to live.

    Sweden

    An incredibly beautiful couple makes love in a forest. There is no analysis and no competitive element because, frankly, this is considered perfectly normal TV in Scandinavia. In fact, it's probably shown at two in the afternoon just after the cartoons." >> http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/timstanley/100240293/sex-box-was-english-sex-at-its-least-sexy-heres-how-other-kinkier-countries-would-do-it/
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    TGOHF said:

    tim said:

    TGOHF said:

    tim said:

    TGOHF said:

    TOPPING said:


    As long as Mark Carney is comfortable with it so am I.

    870K we're paying this man!
    You should have sent in your CV Sunil - pays 40% tax on that mind you so the treasury gets most of it back.


    You're claiming he fiddles his tax now, or is that just the hourly mistake?
    Are you claiming he gets no zero level tax allowance, no 20% rate allowance and no 40% allowance plus no tax free pension allowance ?

    He might pay 45% on the last £ but his average will be less.

    Have you ever seen a P60 ?



    Not 40% though is it, work it out instead of digging yet another hole

    Want to bet it is closer to 40% than 45% ?



    I wouldn't, 43.4%
    My fag packet says he pays around £340k in tax..

  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,279


    Plato said:
    BBC Political Weather Girl Emily Matliss interviews Tory sockpuppet on newsnight.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,279
    edited October 2013
    "Do you smoke after sex?"

    "Dunno, I've never looked..."
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited October 2013
    I don't know if this is true but its very specific

    Marcher Lord @MarcherLord1
    368 out of Royal Mail's 150,000 staff have rejected offer of free shares in the privatised company #Solidarity #Comrades

    Trippy Pip @TrippyPip
    @MarcherLord1 @PlatoSays My husband works for the RM, they all got sent a form you could complete if you didn't want the shares. Weird.

    RT @BBCNormanS: 99 per cent of Royal Mail staff accept free shares after being "opted in" to share offer by ministers
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559

    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    Burnham on 5 live says hes carrying on with his legal action.

    I just heard Andy Burnham on 5 Live as well. He was full of righteous indignation at what he called the Tories' (or Hunt's specifically, I can't remember) undermining of the NHS but IIRC didn't say a word about maintaining / raising patient care standards. It was all about defending the NHS as an institution.
    Of course the NHS is the poor little David and the patients are Goliath or something.

    Burnham is in the producers pocket on health.
    NHS = producers, patients = predators.
    Welcome aboard pb to SouthCoastKevin.

    Alan's post is actually quite illuminating. Labour voters mostly don't see a producer-provider divide in the NHS - their perception is of friendly staff trying to help them with the Government making life difficult. The more ideological Conservatives see it more like a business transaction, for which a clear producer-provider distinction is very important. Most Labour voters will think that Andy B defending the NHS institution is effectively the same as defending the interests of patients, a view that Alan seems to find baffling.

    Why should I find it baffling Nick ? I simply find it an archaic view of healthcare which stops the UK having a more flexible service. Labour wades in too readily to defend the institution rather than the patient. But then having what it perceives as a political edge on healthcare it's hardly likely Labour will give up that advantage. Ed's so called wish to take on vested interests so far doesn't extend to the monoliths on his own side.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    OT Is it better or worse now?

    TV 30 Years Ago @tv30yearsago
    ITV 5.05 Krankies Klub 5.35 Knight Rider 6.30 Game For A Laugh 7.30 Punchlines 8.00 Hart To Hart 9.00 News 9.15 Film: The First Deadly Sin

    TV 30 Years Ago @tv30yearsago
    BBC1 5.10 Dukes/Hazzard 6 News 6.15 Late B'fast Show 7 Blankety Blank 7.35 Juliet Bravo 8.25 Three Of A Kind 8.55 News 9.10 Remington Steele
  • Canada seems to have put in place mortgage regulation that will make a housing bubble less likely.

    "The maximum amortization period was dropped from 30 to 25 years, the maximim refinancing amount was reduced from 85 to 80%, the gross debt service ratio was brought to 39% and total debt service ratio to 44%, and the availability of government-backed mortgage insurance is restricted to homes with a value of $1 million or less."

    Hmm, those seem sensible restrictions to me although I'm uneasy about government intervention in the free market, full stop. ISTM a better approach is to ensure the lenders really do bear the risk of lending recklessly; i.e. the government doesn't stop them lending 125% LTV with a 40 year pay-off period but also doesn't bail them out when it all goes base over apex. (Not saying the banks shouldn't have been bailed out a few years ago; perhaps that was truly necessary - too big to fail and all that... .)

    Alan's post is actually quite illuminating. Labour voters mostly don't see a producer-provider divide in the NHS - their perception is of friendly staff trying to help them with the Government making life difficult. The more ideological Conservatives see it more like a business transaction, for which a clear producer-provider distinction is very important. Most Labour voters will think that Andy B defending the NHS institution is effectively the same as defending the interests of patients, a view that Alan seems to find baffling.

    Yeah, maybe you're right, Nick, about how most Labour voters will be perceiving Andy Burnham's line of argument. I wonder if that will remain the case, though, in the face of the NHS failings under Labour continuing to remain high in the news agendas. On that point, nice one Andy Burnham for keeping the NHS failings in the public eye...
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    TGOHF said:

    'Help to Buy' looks like a popular policy.

    No wonder tim's so agitated.

    He's not been so cross since right to buy - he's on the side of slum landlords..

    Do slum landlords hate the sight of their assets appreciating at >10% a year? I had no idea.

  • Education, Education, Education

    Young adults in England have scored among the lowest results in the industrialised world in international literacy and numeracy tests.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-24433320
  • TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:


    As long as Mark Carney is comfortable with it so am I.

    870K we're paying this man!
    Oh Sunil has your drift leftwards included the adoption of the politics of envy?
    Well, TOPPING, Comrade Mark doesn't need to worry about any savings, hence his contentment to keep interest rates so ridiculously low!
  • dr_spyn said:

    "Do you smoke after sex?"

    "Dunno, I've never looked..."

    Groovy, baby! :)
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Ben Stanley @BDStanley
    As N.Baker's constituent I'm more worried about his grasp of liberalism than his penchant for conspiracy theories. pic.twitter.com/GjOwFrYnHt
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559

    Education, Education, Education

    Young adults in England have scored among the lowest results in the industrialised world in international literacy and numeracy tests.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-24433320

    Are we meant to be shocked by that ? England hasn't given a toss about it's education system for 50 years. Much better to play ideology games than worry about the output.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    dr_spyn said:

    "Do you smoke after sex?"

    "Dunno, I've never looked..."

    Groovy, baby! :)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36m2jLl0Me4
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,005
    On the NHS - it's true that Labour defend it as a institution and perhaps some people feel they are not thinking about the patients. A more charitable suggestion would be that they are defending it against those who want to undermine it so as to sell parts of it off for private profit.
  • Really do not understand Andy Burnham's thinking. A obscure tweet nobody read potentially being escalated Into a high profile forum giving the tories endless scope to focus on labour failings in the nhs, justified or otherwise. Completely focuses the debate retrospectively. Mud will inevitably stick to him and labour regardless. Bonkers.

  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559

    On the NHS - it's true that Labour defend it as a institution and perhaps some people feel they are not thinking about the patients. A more charitable suggestion would be that they are defending it against those who want to undermine it so as to sell parts of it off for private profit.

    Really, how ?

    How does defending failures like Mid Staffs or hiding bad patient care strengthen the NHS ? The reverse is true, cover ups make alternatives more attractive and radical change more likely.
  • On the NHS - it's true that Labour defend it as a institution and perhaps some people feel they are not thinking about the patients. A more charitable suggestion would be that they are defending it against those who want to undermine it so as to sell parts of it off for private profit.

    But that's the point. Why should anyone defend the NHS as an institution? What matters is that we get the best possible care for the money available. Labour should make the case that (a) the government is indeed seeking to sell off parts of the NHS in order to benefit their mates in industry, and (b) that this will result in less effective and less efficient provision of care.

    Likewise, the government should make the case that their reforms will make health provision in the UK more effective and more efficient.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    RT @IpsosMORI: .@GaryGibbonBlog using our data for @Channel4News #reshuffle report bcove.me/6hsr8j8p #ukpolitics pic.twitter.com/8WA6M1AVNc
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,005
    Has anyone tried to explain the Browne/Baker thing. Did Clegg think Browne was building himself up as a leadership rival? Had he gone rogue for the Tories? Does Clegg think this will make it easier for him to work with Ed Miliband?

  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Quite.

    The whole Andy Burnham kept his job as Shadow perplexed me and its just carried on - I assume he has the negatives.

    Really do not understand Andy Burnham's thinking. A obscure tweet nobody read potentially being escalated Into a high profile forum giving the tories endless scope to focus on labour failings in the nhs, justified or otherwise. Completely focuses the debate retrospectively. Mud will inevitably stick to him and labour regardless. Bonkers.

  • john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @FrankBooth

    'A more charitable suggestion would be that they are defending it against those who want to undermine it so as to sell parts of it off for private profit.'

    As in Labour's sale of NHS logistics to DHL?
  • john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @Tim

    No.
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    RE: Education Standards

    "What is really striking is that England/Northern Ireland is anomalous in that our 55 to 65-year-olds are fractionally more skilled in literacy and numeracy than 16 to 24-year-olds.

    Here is the OECD's chilling reflection: "England is the only country where the oldest age group has higher proficiency in both literacy and numeracy than the youngest group, after other factors, such as gender, socio-economic backgrounds and type of occupations are taken into account."

    Or to put it another way, those who moan that education standards have declined in Britain are correct, according to the OECD.

    This would help to explain why, since the crash and great recession of 2008, unemployment in Britain has risen much more among younger than older people."

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-24442248

    So why not return to the education standards of the 1950s-1960?
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    That explains the private tutor figures then

    "Research by the respected Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) found that 16- to 24-year-olds lag close to the bottom of global league tables in literacy and numeracy.

    According to figures, England is ranked 22nd out of 24 western countries in terms of literacy and 21st for numeracy – being outperformed by nations such as Estonia, Poland and Slovakia. In a damning conclusion, it was also revealed that levels of basic skills had effectively worsened over the last 40 years, with recent school leavers registering lower scores in tests than their parents’ or grandparents’ generation.

    England was the only country in the developed world in which adults aged 55-to-65 performed better in literacy and numeracy than those aged 16-to-24. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/secondaryeducation/10362749/Young-worse-at-maths-and-English-than-grandparents-and-behind-almost-every-other-nation.html
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    The rumour is the Browne wasn't tough enough on civil libs vs May - I find that a bit odd to replace him with Norman who has zip credibility.

    Has anyone tried to explain the Browne/Baker thing. Did Clegg think Browne was building himself up as a leadership rival? Had he gone rogue for the Tories? Does Clegg think this will make it easier for him to work with Ed Miliband?

  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559
    tim said:

    Robin Brant ‏@robindbrant
    EDL update: bbc understands 12 other senior members of the EDL have also left the group after discussions with the CT think tank quiliam.

    Stunning work

    Sort of puts the EDL trolling in to context. Shame they can't do the same for UAF.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,263



    Why should I find it baffling Nick ? I simply find it an archaic view of healthcare which stops the UK having a more flexible service. Labour wades in too readily to defend the institution rather than the patient. But then having what it perceives as a political edge on healthcare it's hardly likely Labour will give up that advantage. Ed's so called wish to take on vested interests so far doesn't extend to the monoliths on his own side.

    OK, you don't find it baffling, you find it archaic. It remains an important philosophical difference. In areas of crucial importance to them (health, education, policing), Labour people tend to trust a single government provider more as a source for stability and reassurance, Conservatives tend to look for competition as a source of innovation and value for money. The free market concept has won an outright victory in public opinion for consumer goods - I don't know anyone who would like to see (say) a single British Rice Krispies state manufacturer - but has not yet won the argument in the general public for key personal provision.

    I'm not putting a case here that either side is right (there are obvious example of both philosophies failing at times and I quite liked Blair's dabbling with private input though I think he overdid it), but it's useful to keep the difference of attitude in mind as it explains a good deal of polling, and is therefore ultimately quite central to political betting. I don't think the Conservatives can gain a lead on health (or education, perhaps) unless they explicitly reject an increasingly free market approach OR they openly campaign for it and persuade the public to change their minds.
  • tim said:

    "Norman Baker is a green-ink crank – Theresa May will be furious with Cameron and Clegg for appointing him

    The Home Secretary is a dominant force in the Cabinet. Ministers speak with awe and fear of the way she runs her department. she is not to be trifled with. By landing her with Mr Baker, and not troubling to tell her, Mr Cameron and Mr Clegg will have made her angry. And you don't want that."

    I'm sure the formidable Ms May will have little trouble dealing with Mr Baker.

    More to the point is the risk Nick Clegg is taking on this appointment.
  • john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @Tim

    'Right so you believe the state should subsidise mortgages and pump up prices even in a housing bubble.'

    London & the South East is NOT the UK,surely not hard to get your head around that?
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,005
    Financier said:

    RE: Education Standards

    "What is really striking is that England/Northern Ireland is anomalous in that our 55 to 65-year-olds are fractionally more skilled in literacy and numeracy than 16 to 24-year-olds.

    Here is the OECD's chilling reflection: "England is the only country where the oldest age group has higher proficiency in both literacy and numeracy than the youngest group, after other factors, such as gender, socio-economic backgrounds and type of occupations are taken into account."

    Or to put it another way, those who moan that education standards have declined in Britain are correct, according to the OECD.

    This would help to explain why, since the crash and great recession of 2008, unemployment in Britain has risen much more among younger than older people."

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-24442248

    So why not return to the education standards of the 1950s-1960?

    It's not just about schools though is it? It's about the wider culture. The fact that you immediately state it's all about educational standards just shows you believe what you want to. What about adult education? Or do you assume the only skills people have are ones they acquired during school years?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559

    Financier said:

    RE: Education Standards

    "What is really striking is that England/Northern Ireland is anomalous in that our 55 to 65-year-olds are fractionally more skilled in literacy and numeracy than 16 to 24-year-olds.

    Here is the OECD's chilling reflection: "England is the only country where the oldest age group has higher proficiency in both literacy and numeracy than the youngest group, after other factors, such as gender, socio-economic backgrounds and type of occupations are taken into account."

    Or to put it another way, those who moan that education standards have declined in Britain are correct, according to the OECD.

    This would help to explain why, since the crash and great recession of 2008, unemployment in Britain has risen much more among younger than older people."

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-24442248

    So why not return to the education standards of the 1950s-1960?

    It's not just about schools though is it? It's about the wider culture. The fact that you immediately state it's all about educational standards just shows you believe what you want to. What about adult education? Or do you assume the only skills people have are ones they acquired during school years?
    Hmm wonder if more of those 1950 and 1960 folk went to grammar schools ? ;-)
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Tim reminds me of the Harry Enfield character in the diamond check pullover....

    You didn;t want to do it like that, you wanted to do it like this...

    ''You didn';t want to have growth driven by the private sector, you wanted to have growth driven by the public sector''

    Now I don't believe you wanted to do that, did you?
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    I'm a bit lost here - its not a *celebration of war* - its a commemoration of the bravery and self sacrifice of those who volunteered to protect our country. That is what is being *celebrated*

    Paxo is a plonker.

    "Newsnight presenter Jeremy Paxman has criticised the prime minister for comments he made about how Britain will mark the centenary of World War I. David Cameron said he wanted to see a "commemoration that, like the Diamond Jubilee celebrations, says something about who we are as a people".

    Paxman told the Radio Times that centenary events should "have almost nothing in common" with the Jubilee. He spoke of concerns the centenary could become a "celebration of war".

    Mr Cameron's comments were made in a speech at the Imperial War Museum in London in October last year. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24440923
  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    edited October 2013
    tim said:

    Cameron must've known, he's supposed to be PM.

    Of course, but in a coalition each party leader gets to choose his own ministerial appointments. You don't think Cameron would have chosen Chris Huhne to be a cabinet minister, do you?
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    "Research by the respected Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) found that 16- to 24-year-olds lag close to the bottom of global league tables in literacy and numeracy.

    Educashun, educashun, educashun.

    Despite huge amounts of extra cash, labour completely failed a whole generation.

    They call it siding with the producer.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Virgin Money @VirginMoney
    We're pleased to announce that Virgin Money will be supporting the Government's Help to Buy scheme from 2014 #HelpToBuy ^AS
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Paxo is a plonker.

    Imagine the furore if the government chose to ignore the centenary.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Plato said:

    David Cameron said he wanted to see a "commemoration that, like the Diamond Jubilee celebrations, says something about who we are as a people".

    Paxman told the Radio Times that centenary events should "have almost nothing in common" with the Jubilee. He spoke of concerns the centenary could become a "celebration of war".

    Paxman is absolutely spot on here. The memorial should be about the specifics of WW1. It has absolutely nothing to do with the Jubilee or something as woolly as "who we are as a people".





  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    taffys said:

    "Research by the respected Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) found that 16- to 24-year-olds lag close to the bottom of global league tables in literacy and numeracy.

    Educashun, educashun, educashun.

    Despite huge amounts of extra cash, labour completely failed a whole generation.

    They call it siding with the producer.

    Quite - and they constantly strike and work to rule claiming they're martyrs. Well they need to recalibrate their self-perceptions in that case.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    edited October 2013
    tim said:

    john_zims said:

    @Tim

    'Right so you believe the state should subsidise mortgages and pump up prices even in a housing bubble.'

    London & the South East is NOT the UK,surely not hard to get your head around that?

    But you want Help To Buy applied to regions already in a bubble, madness.

    The only madness is in people who failed to complain during the balloon (far bigger than a bubble) between 1997 and 2008, and yet now bemoan a slight bubble in a few limited areas, and want to deprive the wider country of growth in difficult market conditions.

    I was the first person on here to post my doubts about the policy within a few minutes of it being announced. I'm still slightly dubious, and believe care is needed. But you are not so much over-egging the pudding as making a thousand-egg omelette.

    (Edited to make more sense. Hopefully)
  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    edited October 2013

    Hmm wonder if more of those 1950 and 1960 folk went to grammar schools ? ;-)

    Very few, but that is the key point. Anthony Crosland's absolutely disastrous, ideologically-driven, hate-filled decision to force the introduction of 'comprehensive' education succeeded not only in destroying the grammar schools, which were generally superb and very important for promoting social mobility, but even managed to produce schools which were actually worse for the vast majority of pupils than the secondary moderns.

    Mind you, this is not surprising. It was always about ideology.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Ed Miliband’s decision to keep Blairite Jim Murphy in the shadow cabinet (demoted to shadowing DfID) looks suspiciously like the act of a leader who didn’t feel strong enough to contemplate Mr Murphy on the backbenches.
    What word could we use to describe someone "not strong enough" to do something?

    Still, Ed has removed all doubt that he pines for the glory days of Michael Foot...
    Ed Miliband is said to rue the decision to continue with continuous at-sea deterrence (CASD) and four Trident submarines, and there’s bound to be suspicion that the removal of Jim Murphy from defence is part of a plan to move the party to a different place on this
    - See more at: http://blogs.channel4.com/gary-gibbon-on-politics/milibands-labour-reshuffle-purge-blairites/26698#sthash.sdPdd6ij.dpuf

    Get your CND badges ready to pin that donkey jacket!
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Hmm wonder if more of those 1950 and 1960 folk went to grammar schools ? ;-)

    Very few, but that is the key point. Anthony Crosland's absolutely disastrous, ideologically-driven, hate-filled decision to force the introduction of 'comprehensive' education succeeded not only in destroying the grammar schools, which were generally superb and very important for promoting social mobility, but even managed to produce schools which were actually worse for the vast majority of pupils than the secondary moderns.

    Mind you, this is not surprising. It was always about ideology.
    Richard says "Grammar Schools for everyone!"
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited October 2013
    tim said:

    felix said:

    tim said:

    john_zims said:

    @Tim

    'Simon Nixon ‏@Simon_Nixon 27m
    UK house prices rising fastest for decade and market "gaining momentum" says RICS survey. In other news, help-to-buy 2 starts today..

    Such a deeply unpopular policy with thousands of young people.


    Here's the polling, see if you can understand it, it's a little complex

    http://yougov.co.uk/news/2013/10/07/help-buy-stokes-fears-over-new-housing-bubble/
    One interesting commentary below the figures;

    "The average house price currently stands at £170,733, despite the recent rally it is still down significantly from its boom-time peak of £199,612 in August 2007."
    You think the govt should regard crisis prices as a target don't you, with interest rates at record lows and real pay falling.
    Bizarre.
    You want to condemn an entire generation to rentinghomes from unscrupulous speculators, never able to save enough for a deposit and always at the risk of being turfed out with 6 months notice.

    Bizarre
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    tim said:

    felix said:

    tim said:

    felix said:

    tim said:

    john_zims said:

    @Tim

    'Simon Nixon ‏@Simon_Nixon 27m
    UK house prices rising fastest for decade and market "gaining momentum" says RICS survey. In other news, help-to-buy 2 starts today..

    Such a deeply unpopular policy with thousands of young people.


    Here's the polling, see if you can understand it, it's a little complex

    http://yougov.co.uk/news/2013/10/07/help-buy-stokes-fears-over-new-housing-bubble/
    One interesting commentary below the figures;

    "The average house price currently stands at £170,733, despite the recent rally it is still down significantly from its boom-time peak of £199,612 in August 2007."
    You think the govt should regard crisis prices as a target don't you, with interest rates at record lows and real pay falling.
    Bizarre.
    No - you think putting words in people's mouths is political debating - really bizarre. Oh you forgot about why a marginals poll from August is so much more relevant than today's YouGov.

    House prices in the UK are 25% higher than in the US.
    Wages are 25% lower.

    And yet you seem to be supporting a policy that will deliberately pump them up
    The US is more than 25% bigger than the UK with a lot lower population density.

    But you are in favour of increasingly the population density further
  • Jonathan said:


    Richard says "Grammar Schools for everyone!"

    I say 'Good schools for everyone', which you might have thought was a fairly uncontroversial objective. The tragedy was that Labour in the Sixties set about deliberately destroying the best schools in the state sector.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    tim said:

    tim said:

    john_zims said:

    @Tim

    'Right so you believe the state should subsidise mortgages and pump up prices even in a housing bubble.'

    London & the South East is NOT the UK,surely not hard to get your head around that?

    But you want Help To Buy applied to regions already in a bubble, madness.

    The only madness is in people who failed to complain during the balloon (far bigger than a bubble) between 1997 and 2008, and yet now bemoan such in a few limited areas, and want to deprive the wider country of it.

    I was the first person on here to post my doubts about the policy within a few minutes of it being announced. I'm still slightly dubious, and believe care is needed. But you are not so much over-egging the pudding as making a thousand-egg omelette.
    Over egging?

    Jim Pickard ‏@PickardJE
    Help to Buy could pose threat to Britain's financial stability - Treasury select committee. FT splash today http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/699ede44-2f70-11e3-8b7e-00144feab7de.html?siteedition=uk

    Grow up
    Note the 'could pose'. As I have said passim, I have some doubts over the policy. But your doom-n-gloom Private Frazer routine is becoming increasingly funny and desperate.

    And I am grown up, thanks. Is that what passes for debate in your mind?
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,005

    Financier said:

    RE: Education Standards

    "What is really striking is that England/Northern Ireland is anomalous in that our 55 to 65-year-olds are fractionally more skilled in literacy and numeracy than 16 to 24-year-olds.

    Here is the OECD's chilling reflection: "England is the only country where the oldest age group has higher proficiency in both literacy and numeracy than the youngest group, after other factors, such as gender, socio-economic backgrounds and type of occupations are taken into account."

    Or to put it another way, those who moan that education standards have declined in Britain are correct, according to the OECD.

    This would help to explain why, since the crash and great recession of 2008, unemployment in Britain has risen much more among younger than older people."

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-24442248

    So why not return to the education standards of the 1950s-1960?

    It's not just about schools though is it? It's about the wider culture. The fact that you immediately state it's all about educational standards just shows you believe what you want to. What about adult education? Or do you assume the only skills people have are ones they acquired during school years?
    Hmm wonder if more of those 1950 and 1960 folk went to grammar schools ? ;-)
    Looking at the report it appears that England comes off similarly to Northern Ireland which still has Grammar Schools. That would suggest it probably isn't the issue. I'd be careful for now. It's one study and we've only seen the reporting of it one paper that is known for its traditionalist views. That said it doesn't look great.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    tim said:

    tim said:

    john_zims said:

    @Tim

    'Right so you believe the state should subsidise mortgages and pump up prices even in a housing bubble.'

    London & the South East is NOT the UK,surely not hard to get your head around that?

    But you want Help To Buy applied to regions already in a bubble, madness.

    The only madness is in people who failed to complain during the balloon (far bigger than a bubble) between 1997 and 2008, and yet now bemoan such in a few limited areas, and want to deprive the wider country of it.

    I was the first person on here to post my doubts about the policy within a few minutes of it being announced. I'm still slightly dubious, and believe care is needed. But you are not so much over-egging the pudding as making a thousand-egg omelette.
    Over egging?

    Jim Pickard ‏@PickardJE
    Help to Buy could pose threat to Britain's financial stability - Treasury select committee. FT splash today http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/699ede44-2f70-11e3-8b7e-00144feab7de.html?siteedition=uk

    Grow up
    Tim

    Could Definition

    could (kʊd; unstressed kəd)

    v.
    1. a pt. of can 1.
    auxiliary verb.
    2. (used to express possibility): That could never be true.
    3. (used to express conditional possibility or ability): You could do it if you tried.
    4. (used in making polite requests): Could you open the door for me, please?
    5. (used in asking for permission): Could I borrow your pen?
    6. (used in offering suggestions or advice): You could ask for more information.
    [Middle English coude, Old English cūthe; modern -l- (from would1, should) first attested 1520–30]
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Quite.

    Victoria Freeman @make_trouble
    Would Owen Jones & others upset at Quilliam re Robinson have kept Gerry Adams & Martin McGuiness out of the Irish peace process?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559


    @NickPalmer


    Tbh Nick I think you're making a lot of assumptions about my politics in that. My basic politics is ANYONE but Labour since they Fk everything up horrendously. My basic politics are to the right but probably closer to CDU\CSU where I can see the state enabling some things than US GOP. However where the state enables it has to be a competent, self critical servant in the old prussian style. I see no benefit in replacing state monopolies with private ones. What I would say is lefties confuse the security of payment with the provision of service. I would on health care prefer to combine the security of obligatory national health insurance with a selection of providers. Ultimately I think that will lead to better patient care.

    So while I quite understand the mentality of those seeking a national provider ( like all people I have a spectrum of opinion in my family ) it's just I don't accept the option on offer is currently the best. My views are more pragmatist than ideological.

  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Jonathan said:


    Richard says "Grammar Schools for everyone!"

    I say 'Good schools for everyone', which you might have thought was a fairly uncontroversial objective. The tragedy was that Labour in the Sixties set about deliberately destroying the best schools in the state sector.
    Were Grammar schools the "best schools", or did they just have an easier job?
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    edited October 2013
    ''We know how to improve schools, look at London.''

    Or we could take the example of Wales, where labour rules.

    Oh wait......
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    tim said:

    @JohnO.

    After your posts yesterday what do you make of this?

    Katharine S-J ‏@KatharineSJ 12m
    Cameron demotes housing from ministerial to parly-under secretary responsibility whilst Lab upgrades to cabinet. Reflection of priorities?

    Having a large cabinet is a bad idea as it inhibits effective decision-making and increasing the pressure for decisions to be made outside of the traditional structure
  • TGOHF said:

    Wrong sort of pay rises..

    David Smith ‏@dsmitheconomics 10m

    Is pay starting to turn? Recruitment & Employment Confederation says permanent salary inflation highest since Feb 08: http://www.rec.uk.com/press/news/2413

    I'm not surprised at this. Bearing in mind that many companies in the private sector have had a pay freeze for the past few years it makes sense that there has to be at least some pay rise when things look like they are picking up. Certainly I have heard some noises about getting a rise in Jan.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Charles, I agree that a smaller cabinet is generally better, and would add that government generally should be smaller.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559

    Hmm wonder if more of those 1950 and 1960 folk went to grammar schools ? ;-)

    Very few, but that is the key point. Anthony Crosland's absolutely disastrous, ideologically-driven, hate-filled decision to force the introduction of 'comprehensive' education succeeded not only in destroying the grammar schools, which were generally superb and very important for promoting social mobility, but even managed to produce schools which were actually worse for the vast majority of pupils than the secondary moderns.

    Mind you, this is not surprising. It was always about ideology.
    Really Richard, I think you'll find there was quite a difference. In NI circa 30% of pupils each year went to selective schools, in my local area Warks the ratio is about 2%.. Original grammar schools were much more accessible in England than they are today with a % higher intake of pupils across the spectrum hence better social mobility.

    However as you rightly point out the posh ideologues in Labour couldn't have ordinary people succeeding, so they screwed them and told them it was for their own good.

  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Oh dear - union prankster draws eyebrows on colleague's guide dog...

    RT @chrisdeerin: Oh well *played*, Wigan Observer pic.twitter.com/c1VPA1OAj1
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    tim said:

    I knew Maajid Nawaz was good, but this is a jaw dropper

    Quilliam is proud to announce that Tommy Robinson and Kevin Carroll, the leaders of the anti-Islamist group, the English Defence League (EDL), have decided to leave the group. Having set up the EDL, infamous for its street protests, in 2009, they wish to exit this group, because they feel they can no longer keep extremist elements at bay.
    Tommy Robinson said:

    “I have been considering this move for a long time because I recognise that, though street demonstrations have brought us to this point, they are no longer productive. I acknowledge the dangers of far-right extremism and the ongoing need to counter Islamist ideology not with violence but with better, democratic ideas.”

    Quilliam has been working with Tommy to achieve this transition, which represents a huge success for community relations in the United Kingdom. We have previously identified the symbiotic relationship between far-right extremism and Islamism and think that this event can dismantle the underpinnings of one phenomenon while removing the need for the other phenomenon.

    We hope to help Tommy invest his energy and commitment in countering extremism of all kinds, supporting the efforts to bring along his former followers and encouraging his critique of Islamism as well as his concern with far-right extremism. We call all of Tommy’s former colleagues in the EDL to follow in his footsteps and also call on Islamist extremist leaders to follow this example and leave their respective groups. Tommy and Kevin believe the voice they have created can be channelled in a positive direction. Quilliam stands ready to facilitate such moves across the spectrum.


    http://www.quilliamfoundation.org/press-releases/quilliam-facilitates-tommy-robinson-leaving-the-english-defence-league/

    Well the Quillam foundation is not wrong. Both islamism and far-right extremism are two peas from the same rotten pod.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Sky: Muslim school in Derby threatened with closure by DES. Rumours of non-Muslim women teachers being forced to wear a veil and girl pupils made to sit at back of the class...
  • tim said:

    The increase in inequality since the 70's is the main driver.

    Precisely.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    On the NHS - it's true that Labour defend it as a institution and perhaps some people feel they are not thinking about the patients. A more charitable suggestion would be that they are defending it against those who want to undermine it so as to sell parts of it off for private profit.

    There was an interesting article in the Spectator this week.

    No idea if it is accurate or not, but it sounds plausible.

    Argument was that part of the reason for poor patient care is nurse fatigue. However this is driven by the 12 hours shift system - which nurses actually prefer because it allows them to complete a "week's work" in 3 days. Proposition is that patients would be better off with a maximum 8 hour shift system.

    http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9040861/power-shift/
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    edited October 2013
    ''The increase in inequality since the 70's is the main driver.''

    LOL Even on the Guardian thread on this nobody has stooped to claiming this.

    In fact there's nothing but silence from the left, where once there was an ocean of pontification.

    The tories really should hammer home labour's total failure on education. It should be hung around ed's neck like an albatross.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited October 2013
    Charles said:

    On the NHS - it's true that Labour defend it as a institution and perhaps some people feel they are not thinking about the patients. A more charitable suggestion would be that they are defending it against those who want to undermine it so as to sell parts of it off for private profit.

    There was an interesting article in the Spectator this week.

    No idea if it is accurate or not, but it sounds plausible.

    Argument was that part of the reason for poor patient care is nurse fatigue. However this is driven by the 12 hours shift system - which nurses actually prefer because it allows them to complete a "week's work" in 3 days. Proposition is that patients would be better off with a maximum 8 hour shift system.

    http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9040861/power-shift/
    The police are the same - many prefer 12hrs shifts for the same reason despite being dead on their feet for the last few hours. Anyone who's done 12hrs 3 days running in a physically active job knows its pretty draining.

    How junior doctors were allowed to practice even under worse terms is a scandal - they're dealing with life and death and we expect lorry drivers to be better monitored.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    edited October 2013
    ''Proposition is that patients would be better off with a maximum 8 hour shift system.''

    Surely what the nurses want is far more important than what the patients want.

    That's the labour way.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    What is the problem with inequality ?

    As long as the poor have a minimum level of income.

    Life ain't fair.
  • Charles said:

    tim said:

    @JohnO.

    After your posts yesterday what do you make of this?

    Katharine S-J ‏@KatharineSJ 12m
    Cameron demotes housing from ministerial to parly-under secretary responsibility whilst Lab upgrades to cabinet. Reflection of priorities?

    Having a large cabinet is a bad idea as it inhibits effective decision-making and increasing the pressure for decisions to be made outside of the traditional structure
    On this topic, one thing I don't understand is why there are still separate departments for Scotland, Wales and NI when all 3 countries have devolution. Why not merge into a Department for Devolved Nations and then some other areas could be bumped up to cabinet level.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    tim said:

    john_zims said:

    @Tim

    'Right so you believe the state should subsidise mortgages and pump up prices even in a housing bubble.'

    London & the South East is NOT the UK,surely not hard to get your head around that?

    But you want Help To Buy applied to regions already in a bubble, madness.

    Please supply proof that we are in a bubble.

    Stating prices are increasing in certain regions does not equate to being in a bubble
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    edited October 2013
    ''A society addicted to low pay/high rents/benefit dependency as we have been since 1979 will never solve that''

    Are you really peddling the notion that a parent's arrangements with regard to housing (ie whether they rent, buy, have social housing etc) dramatically affects the educational performance of their child?
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Just for EdM fans. http://www.itv.com/news/update/2013-10-08/miliband-white-trousers-among-many-fashion-faux-pas/

    "The Labour leader Ed Miliband has revealed he "had many fashion faux pas in the 80s", admitting "I think it may have been white trousers and not a nice v-neck."

    Earlier in the year, Mr Miliband told Now magazine he wasn't "massively interested in clothes" and that his wardrobe contained "big jumpers and nasty corduroys."

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yA4eiim-nOo&feature=player_embedded
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    tim said:

    tim said:

    The increase in inequality since the 70's is the main driver.

    Precisely.
    Thats why housing is key, the links between the end of social housebuilding,which drove falling inequality pre and post war, until the 70's has to be reversed.

    You can go on about grammar schools all you want, NI shows it doesn't make much difference, what makes a difference is reducing inequality before those children get to school.

    A society addicted to low pay/high rents/benefit dependency as we have been since 1979 will never solve that




    The left in a nutshell.

    Poor parents aren't able to provide properly for or bring up their children so the State must step in.

    tim what makes you say that if you are poor you are likely to be a bad parent?
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    TGOHF said:

    What is the problem with inequality ?

    As long as the poor have a minimum level of income.

    Life ain't fair.

    Inequality is a function of diversity?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    tim said:

    Charles said:

    tim said:

    felix said:

    tim said:

    felix said:

    tim said:

    john_zims said:

    @Tim

    'Simon Nixon ‏@Simon_Nixon 27m
    UK house prices rising fastest for decade and market "gaining momentum" says RICS survey. In other news, help-to-buy 2 starts today..

    Such a deeply unpopular policy with thousands of young people.


    Here's the polling, see if you can understand it, it's a little complex

    http://yougov.co.uk/news/2013/10/07/help-buy-stokes-fears-over-new-housing-bubble/
    One interesting commentary below the figures;

    "The average house price currently stands at £170,733, despite the recent rally it is still down significantly from its boom-time peak of £199,612 in August 2007."
    You think the govt should regard crisis prices as a target don't you, with interest rates at record lows and real pay falling.
    Bizarre.
    No - you think putting words in people's mouths is political debating - really bizarre. Oh you forgot about why a marginals poll from August is so much more relevant than today's YouGov.

    House prices in the UK are 25% higher than in the US.
    Wages are 25% lower.

    And yet you seem to be supporting a policy that will deliberately pump them up
    The US is more than 25% bigger than the UK with a lot lower population density.

    But you are in favour of increasingly the population density further
    You think housing bubbles and population density are linked?
    Go and look at Canadian and Australian bubbles.


    No, I don't.

    But you were comparing absolute prices.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    tim said:

    taffys said:

    ''A society addicted to low pay/high rents/benefit dependency as we have been since 1979 will never solve that''

    Are you really peddling the notion that a parent's arrangements with regard to housing (ie whether they rent, buy, have social housing etc) dramatically affects the educational performance of their child?


    I've never in my life heard anyone deny a link between housing and education, you're the first person
    Ever been to Africa or India?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    tim said:

    Charles said:

    tim said:

    @JohnO.

    After your posts yesterday what do you make of this?

    Katharine S-J ‏@KatharineSJ 12m
    Cameron demotes housing from ministerial to parly-under secretary responsibility whilst Lab upgrades to cabinet. Reflection of priorities?

    Having a large cabinet is a bad idea as it inhibits effective decision-making and increasing the pressure for decisions to be made outside of the traditional structure

    Housing was not in the cabinet, what are you talking about?
    Ed Miliband adding it to the shadow cabinet. Assuming he intends to keep it in the cabinet if he wins in 2015 then that is one more seat at an already over-crowded table
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559
    edited October 2013
    tim said:

    Jonathan said:


    Richard says "Grammar Schools for everyone!"

    I say 'Good schools for everyone', which you might have thought was a fairly uncontroversial objective. The tragedy was that Labour in the Sixties set about deliberately destroying the best schools in the state sector.
    The grammar school system still exists in Northern Ireland, why isn't it racing ahead?

    Let's see Sinn Fein have had the education post for almost 10 years and have abolished grammar schools, deciding in the process to dumb the catholic population down to the level of their marching infatuated neighbours. The Catholic grammar schools having 8 out of 10 of the top schools can now be as dumb as the rest, it's only "fair". Likewise comparing 16 yr olds to the older population is a bit more difficult when a considerable portion of their output leave NI. I reckon about half my school year ( me included ) have emigrated.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,349

    I was amused by the reaction to the literacy/numeracy report. Assuming 21st and 22nd out of 24 is not good, what are the reasons for this?

    (1) British kids are thicker on average
    (2) Teaching methods are worse.
    (3) Motivation of kids/teachers are worse

    I don't think it's (1), but we don't want to talk about (2) or )3). So we'll call it inequality. That makes sense, those Polish and Estonian kids are all posh fops.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    edited October 2013
    ''Poor parents aren't able to provide properly for or bring up their children so the State must step in.''

    Surely 'the poor' of today are much better off than the poor of the fifties and sixties. I don;t remember seeing too many flat screen TVs and 4x4s in the kitchen sink drama of the period.

    It is apparently all relative, however.

    Tim appears to be arguing because well off children weren't so well off relative to the poor children then as they are now, the poor attained better educational standards.

    Or in other words, Kevin and colin are downing pencils because they noticed that tarquin who goes to the posh school is RAF.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. CD13, don't forget the nobility of the Japanese and Chinese. And those aristocratic Jews.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    tim said:

    @JohnO.

    After your posts yesterday what do you make of this?

    Katharine S-J ‏@KatharineSJ 12m
    Cameron demotes housing from ministerial to parly-under secretary responsibility whilst Lab upgrades to cabinet. Reflection of priorities?

    Having a large cabinet is a bad idea as it inhibits effective decision-making and increasing the pressure for decisions to be made outside of the traditional structure
    On this topic, one thing I don't understand is why there are still separate departments for Scotland, Wales and NI when all 3 countries have devolution. Why not merge into a Department for Devolved Nations and then some other areas could be bumped up to cabinet level.
    Because of the concern that people in the devolved regions would use it as an excuse to claim "the Tories don't care about Scotland/Wales/NI".

    Cabinet positions are about internal and external politics, not efficient government. But the consequence is that decisions are made in 'kitchen cabinets' where they are not properly accountable, inadequately recorded, & often unelected individuals have too much say
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    tim said:

    Charles said:

    tim said:

    Charles said:

    tim said:

    felix said:

    tim said:

    felix said:

    tim said:

    john_zims said:

    @Tim

    'Simon Nixon ‏@Simon_Nixon 27m
    UK house prices rising fastest for decade and market "gaining momentum" says RICS survey. In other news, help-to-buy 2 starts today..

    Such a deeply unpopular policy with thousands of young people.


    Here's the polling, see if you can understand it, it's a little complex

    http://yougov.co.uk/news/2013/10/07/help-buy-stokes-fears-over-new-housing-bubble/
    One interesting commentary below the figures;

    "The average house price currently stands at £170,733, despite the recent rally it is still down significantly from its boom-time peak of £199,612 in August 2007."
    You think the govt should regard crisis prices as a target don't you, with interest rates at record lows and real pay falling.
    Bizarre.
    No - you think putting words in people's mouths is political debating - really bizarre. Oh you forgot about why a marginals poll from August is so much more relevant than today's YouGov.

    House prices in the UK are 25% higher than in the US.
    Wages are 25% lower.

    And yet you seem to be supporting a policy that will deliberately pump them up
    The US is more than 25% bigger than the UK with a lot lower population density.

    But you are in favour of increasingly the population density further
    You think housing bubbles and population density are linked?
    Go and look at Canadian and Australian bubbles.


    No, I don't.

    But you were comparing absolute prices.

    Care to get the data for Canada and Australia then?
    You think absolute prices in those two are held down because they are big countries with low population densities?
    Beginners stuff Charles, you should know better.
    I'm just making the point that your claim that house prices in the UK and US are in anyway comparable is a load of garbage.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    Paxman versus PM, round one.

    Ding-ding!

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24440923
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    tim said:

    TOPPING said:

    tim said:

    tim said:

    The increase in inequality since the 70's is the main driver.

    Precisely.
    Thats why housing is key, the links between the end of social housebuilding,which drove falling inequality pre and post war, until the 70's has to be reversed.

    You can go on about grammar schools all you want, NI shows it doesn't make much difference, what makes a difference is reducing inequality before those children get to school.

    A society addicted to low pay/high rents/benefit dependency as we have been since 1979 will never solve that




    The left in a nutshell.

    Poor parents aren't able to provide properly for or bring up their children so the State must step in.

    tim what makes you say that if you are poor you are likely to be a bad parent?
    Who said that, but no one can deny what is in the OECD report.
    Or are you denying also what Tory PM's such as Baldwin, Churchill and Macmillan believed regarding housing?

    Ghettoisation within a limited supply of social housing is a major driver of low ambition.

    (we know spending money on coaching games the 11 plus system too, which is why Tory councils are trying to stop it)
    If you mean families are disadvantaged by being forced to stay in accommodation that is too small because single occupiers in social housing receive a spare room subsidy then I agree with you.

    Housing is a factor, of course it is (although I think "ghettoisation" is a bit dramatic) but your contention that "what makes a difference is reducing inequality before those children get to school" implies that those who are less equal = poorer produce less able children.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,349

    This education row is funny for the responses. Perhaps we should send all our kids to Poland to be educated? Then they could come back without pushing up the immigration figures so much.

    Motivation is important, especially from the parents. They can pass it on to their kids - if they want to. I grew up with some kids whose parents thought it was all a waste of time.

    Inequality? So the poor kids don't work at it cos somebody else has more money?
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    I've never in my life heard anyone deny a link between housing and education, you're the first person

    You're not claiming a link between education and housing. You are claiming a very strong link between education and inequality. There's a big distinction there.

    You (and the report, its true) are claiming that educational outcomes in England are determined largely how much richer than poor colin wealthy tarquin is.

    If tarquin's parents are a great deal richer than colin's than colin turns into an illiterate.

    If tarquin's parents are only slightly richer than colin's colin turns into a genius.

    This is true even if the colin of today is much better off, in absolute terms, than the colin of the 1950s.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,349
    Taffys,

    I think you just beat me to it.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    taffys said:



    Or in other words, Kevin and colin are downing pencils because they noticed that tarquin who goes to the posh school is RAF.

    Tarquin? I think you meant to type 'Tristram'.

  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Well its a view. I think it's weird myself

    Ian Dunt @IanDunt
    @PlatoSays It's good he [EdM] had no idea what X-Factor was. Voters aren't looking for that.
  • CD13 said:


    I was amused by the reaction to the literacy/numeracy report. Assuming 21st and 22nd out of 24 is not good, what are the reasons for this?

    (1) British kids are thicker on average
    (2) Teaching methods are worse.
    (3) Motivation of kids/teachers are worse

    I don't think it's (1), but we don't want to talk about (2) or )3). So we'll call it inequality. That makes sense, those Polish and Estonian kids are all posh fops.

    I would add:

    4) Motivation of parents is worse e.g. Tiger Mums in Asia.
    5) A good education is not seen as critical by poor families as there is the benefits system to fall back on. Parents in poor countries are more likely to stress the importance of education as a route out of poverty.
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