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SeanT said:

Jobabob said:

SeanT said:

Jobabob said:

@Richard_Tyndall

Davis has some qualities to commend him, but his idiotic support for a failed and wrong death penalty undermines all of them I am afraid.

Looking back, Davis would have made a far superior PM to Cameron. Dave was a vastly overrated mediocrity (as we now see). Davis is a bit flighty and vain, but he is also canny and plausible and has a backstory which would have given him a 50 seat majority.

"Let sunshine win the day"

FFS. Sod off, Cameron, you epicene poseur

Wrong, Sean. He would have been spanked by Gordon in the autumn of 2007, losing by 50 odd seats. Cameron is, was, and will forever be, a massively underestimated Tory leader. He shares with Sir John Major that unfortunate chalice.

How can you call a leader "massively underestimated" when, going by his own opinions, he walked us into a referendum of his own choosing which led, from his perspective, to the most calamitous geopolitical mistake the British have made, since Suez? If not World War 1?

Cameron is, was and always will be a total dickhead. A lazy fool. An arrogant, complacent mediocrity. He nearly lost the bloody Union with Scotland, as well. His negotiation with Europe was disastrously bad, and then he tried to sell it to us in the most insulting way, pretending it was great. A total total imbecile. "I want to be prime minister because.. I think I'd be quite good at it." Help. No more old Etonian halfwits please.

Dave will be known in history solely for the referendum defeat (and judged badly for it, in purely political terms), just as Blair is now known solely for the error of Iraq.

The one good thing he did, from my point of view, is actually grant the vote. But I doubt that solaces him, nor his biographers. Nor historians.

Jobabob said:

SeanT said:

Jobabob said:

SeanT said:

Jobabob said:

@Richard_Tyndall

Davis has some qualities to commend him, but his idiotic support for a failed and wrong death penalty undermines all of them I am afraid.

Looking back, Davis would have made a far superior PM to Cameron. Dave was a vastly overrated mediocrity (as we now see). Davis is a bit flighty and vain, but he is also canny and plausible and has a backstory which would have given him a 50 seat majority.

"Let sunshine win the day"

FFS. Sod off, Cameron, you epicene poseur

Wrong, Sean. He would have been spanked by Gordon in the autumn of 2007, losing by 50 odd seats. Cameron is, was, and will forever be, a massively underestimated Tory leader. He shares with Sir John Major that unfortunate chalice.

How can you call a leader "massively underestimated" when, going by his own opinions, he walked us into a referendum of his own choosing which led, from his perspective, to the most calamitous geopolitical mistake the British have made, since Suez? If not World War 1?

Cameron is, was and always will be a total dickhead. A lazy fool. An arrogant, complacent mediocrity. He nearly lost the bloody Union with Scotland, as well. His negotiation with Europe was disastrously bad, and then he tried to sell it to us in the most insulting way, pretending it was great. A total total imbecile. "I want to be prime minister because.. I think I'd be quite good at it." Help. No more old Etonian halfwits please.

Dave will be known in history solely for the referendum defeat (and judged badly for it, in purely political terms), just as Blair is now known solely for the error of Iraq.

The one good thing he did, from my point of view, is actually grant the vote. But I doubt that solaces him, nor his biographers. Nor historians.

I agree that he made a cataclysmic error. But, that said, he managed to command the electorally important centre ground successfully for six years, becoming leader of a party that was, when he came to lead it, utterly toxic. Right wingers forget their history far too easily.

RobD said:

Jobabob said:

SeanT said:

Jobabob said:

SeanT said:

Jobabob said:

@Richard_Tyndall

Davis has some qualities to commend him, but his idiotic support for a failed and wrong death penalty undermines all of them I am afraid.

Looking back, Davis would have made a far superior PM to Cameron. Dave was a vastly overrated mediocrity (as we now see). Davis is a bit flighty and vain, but he is also canny and plausible and has a backstory which would have given him a 50 seat majority.

"Let sunshine win the day"

FFS. Sod off, Cameron, you epicene poseur

Wrong, Sean. He would have been spanked by Gordon in the autumn of 2007, losing by 50 odd seats. Cameron is, was, and will forever be, a massively underestimated Tory leader. He shares with Sir John Major that unfortunate chalice.

How can you call a leader "massively underestimated" when, going by his own opinions, he walked us into a referendum of his own choosing which led, from his perspective, to the most calamitous geopolitical mistake the British have made, since Suez? If not World War 1?

Cameron is, was and always will be a total dickhead. A lazy fool. An arrogant, complacent mediocrity. He nearly lost the bloody Union with Scotland, as well. His negotiation with Europe was disastrously bad, and then he tried to sell it to us in the most insulting way, pretending it was great. A total total imbecile. "I want to be prime minister because.. I think I'd be quite good at it." Help. No more old Etonian halfwits please.

Dave will be known in history solely for the referendum defeat (and judged badly for it, in purely political terms), just as Blair is now known solely for the error of Iraq.

The one good thing he did, from my point of view, is actually grant the vote. But I doubt that solaces him, nor his biographers. Nor historians.

I agree that he made a cataclysmic error. But, that said, he managed to command the electorally important centre ground successfully for six years, becoming leader of a party that was, when he came to lead it, utterly toxic. Right wingers forget their history far too easily.

So do left wingers, what with the election of Corbyn

surbiton said:

chestnut said:

surbiton said:

TGOHF said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

TGOHF said:

re Labour's new customs union policy - does that mean they don't want new free trade deals with the rest of the world ?

It means that they, probably rightly, consider that the minor disadvantage of not being able to negotiate our own trade deals is outweighed by the humongous advantage of not wrecking our car industry.

Under what circumstances would the EU invoke tariffs on our car industry that wouldn't result in the mutual destruction of a multitude of their industries ?

Be realistic..

I think those here who thinks that invoking tariffs on our car imports will kill the German car industry is being a bit silly.

I drive a BMW. What else could I buy ? A Mercedes, an Audi...... Certainly not a Qashqai, if that is still produced here.

On the other hand, a Qashqai exported to Europe with a 10% duty added may not be such a good buy over there. There is plenty of competition.

The German car industry still exported large numbers to the UK, when our exchange rate was £1= € 1.06 and when it was € 1.42. They will survive, believe me. I am not sure about ours.

The evidence is already there of falling sales projections among German companies in this country due to the fluctuation of currency.

https://www.ft.com/content/a65b8912-b88f-11e6-961e-a1acd97f622d

"Matthias Wissmann, the VDA’s head, said the main factor was “general uncertainty” following the Brexit vote, as well sterling depreciation. “When cars are 10-15 per cent more expensive, that doesn’t exactly put people in the mood to buy,” he said."

Tariffs would most likely exacerbate that.

This is worth watching.

https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/video/bad-brexit-germany-auto-industry-083100977.html

Cars are already more than 20% more expensive than when the pound was at 1.42, exactly a year ago. BMW is still there.

At the end of the day, the main competition German cars of a certain type have in the UK are from other German cars !

Stark_Dawning said:

Dave's great misfortune was to be PM just at the precise moment the forces of isolation and resentment were beginning to stir around the world. You need dark charlatans like Farage and Trump to thrive in such a of swamp of cynicism and unrest. Dave's brand of honest, well-meaning liberal Toryism was easy prey. The man was just too gentle and good.

surbiton said:

chestnut said:

surbiton said:

TGOHF said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

TGOHF said:

re Labour's new customs union policy - does that mean they don't want new free trade deals with the rest of the world ?

It means that they, probably rightly, consider that the minor disadvantage of not being able to negotiate our own trade deals is outweighed by the humongous advantage of not wrecking our car industry.

Under what circumstances would the EU invoke tariffs on our car industry that wouldn't result in the mutual destruction of a multitude of their industries ?

Be realistic..

I think those here who thinks that invoking tariffs on our car imports will kill the German car industry is being a bit silly.

I drive a BMW. What else could I buy ? A Mercedes, an Audi...... Certainly not a Qashqai, if that is still produced here.

On the other hand, a Qashqai exported to Europe with a 10% duty added may not be such a good buy over there. There is plenty of competition.

The German car industry still exported large numbers to the UK, when our exchange rate was £1= € 1.06 and when it was € 1.42. They will survive, believe me. I am not sure about ours.

The evidence is already there of falling sales projections among German companies in this country due to the fluctuation of currency.

https://www.ft.com/content/a65b8912-b88f-11e6-961e-a1acd97f622d

"Matthias Wissmann, the VDA’s head, said the main factor was “general uncertainty” following the Brexit vote, as well sterling depreciation. “When cars are 10-15 per cent more expensive, that doesn’t exactly put people in the mood to buy,” he said."

Tariffs would most likely exacerbate that.

This is worth watching.

https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/video/bad-brexit-germany-auto-industry-083100977.html

Cars are already more than 20% more expensive than when the pound was at 1.42, exactly a year ago. BMW is still there.

At the end of the day, the main competition German cars of a certain type have in the UK are from other German cars !