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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » It’s not neo-fascism, it’s the classic variety

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  • Alistair said:

    Clucking heck, I know it's only rugby league but Scotland drew with New Zealand.Stunned

    Sadly, only England and Australia take Rugby League remotely seriously.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    I take this seriously because it's David, but one of my "good things about Trump winning" (I never did get round to writing out the full list) is that Trump is going to get a whole lot more scrutiny than Clinton would have, and so is paradoxically less likely to cause major damage.

    The Lame stream media were bloody awful at bring in the tank for Clinton. CNN had a Trump staffer as one of their analysts. Who's now quit CNN and will probably get a job in the Trump administration.

    Can you imagine how mental some on here would be going if the party affiliation was reversed?
  • MikeK said:

    Good Afternoon all.

    Well, well, well! David Herdson proclaims Donald Trump a Fascist. And all the liberal and lefty PBers jump as one to agree with him.

    Lets pull this apart a bit. Now I haven't the writing ability of Herdson to refute the main thesis of his arguments, but refute them I will, and I will refute them by numbers.

    Trump has done the following:
    1. Called some women names. Except for some women, Haven't we all.
    2. Called Muslims names. Except for some muslims, Haven't we all.
    3. Called Mexicans names. Well Mexicans are not our near neigbours, but France is, and Except for some Frenchmen, Haven't we all.
    4. Called for the end of abortion on demand. Well Except for some women, Haven't we all.
    5. Called for the end illegal and massive immigration. Except for some Liberals and Lefties, Haven't we all.
    6. Called for the re-establishment of industry in the country. Almost without exception, Haven't we all.

    I could go on, but you get my drift.

    So Trump the Fascist will go to the White House in January, sans Storm Troopers, sans a Fascist Party, sans organised thugs on the streets, and sans support from the military.

    In the meantime there are thugs and hooligans on the streets from the so called Democratic Party and extreme lefties calling for the dismembering of the recent elections and the possible assasination of Trump before inauguration day.

    Who are the real Fascists here?

    Orwell ; " It will be seen that, as used, the word 'Fascism' is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else."

    There's nothing new about this hysterical nonsense.
    The point of the 'boy who cried wolf' fable is that, in the end, the wolf really does arrive.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    I have just read David's article. It really is quite superb!
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383

    MikeK said:

    Good Afternoon all.

    Well, well, well! David Herdson proclaims Donald Trump a Fascist. And all the liberal and lefty PBers jump as one to agree with him.

    Lets pull this apart a bit. Now I haven't the writing ability of Herdson to refute the main thesis of his arguments, but refute them I will, and I will refute them by numbers.

    Trump has done the following:
    1. Called some women names. Except for some women, Haven't we all.
    2. Called Muslims names. Except for some muslims, Haven't we all.
    3. Called Mexicans names. Well Mexicans are not our near neigbours, but France is, and Except for some Frenchmen, Haven't we all.
    4. Called for the end of abortion on demand. Well Except for some women, Haven't we all.
    5. Called for the end illegal and massive immigration. Except for some Liberals and Lefties, Haven't we all.
    6. Called for the re-establishment of industry in the country. Almost without exception, Haven't we all.

    I could go on, but you get my drift.

    So Trump the Fascist will go to the White House in January, sans Storm Troopers, sans a Fascist Party, sans organised thugs on the streets, and sans support from the military.

    In the meantime there are thugs and hooligans on the streets from the so called Democratic Party and extreme lefties calling for the dismembering of the recent elections and the possible assasination of Trump before inauguration day.

    Who are the real Fascists here?

    Orwell ; " It will be seen that, as used, the word 'Fascism' is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else."

    There's nothing new about this hysterical nonsense.
    Excellent.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    HYUFD said:

    I've written a thread header on the French primary race, but since I don't know when, an update:

    75% of the French oppose Trump.

    The effect of the second primary debate (and/or Trump - the fieldwork was Wednesday onwards) was to move votes from Juppé to Fillon, i.e. one centre-right to another (Juppé 36%, Sarkozy 26%, Fillon 20%). Most of these votes come home to Juppé in the second round (now 57 v 43 among all voters).

    I can't see an updated overall 2017 presidential election poll but I can't see any justification on these figures for believe Le Pen will add anything more than a point or two to her 30-32%.



    Most Americans saw Trump unfavourably, and voted for him anyway. There's a difference between opposing Trump the candidate (a narcissistic mysognist/racist etc) and opposing his policy proposals / what he wants to achieve.

    What's the fundamental difference between French people and Brits/Americans that they won't vote for an anti-globalist/populist candidate/referendum?

    The electoral system has held against the FN so far, but MLP knows that her route to power is to convince ordinary socialist party voters that they are better off backing her in round 2 than Juppé - accordingly her campaign will focus strongly on protectionism/frexit, and less on anti-Muslim policies

    Yes, in round 2 Juppe would win a landslide in Paris, just as Clinton won New York and California by a landslide and Remain won London comfortably. However Le Pen will focus her campaign against Juppe on industrial areas in the north, especially around the Pas de Calais, working class socialist areas, rural, traditionalist parts of the south and the Cote d'Azur which is Sarkozy country
    And Lille. Les Ch'tis.
  • Mr. Dawning, Garak* differed. He thought the point was that a man should never tell the same lie twice.

    *Deep Space Nine character.
  • kjohnw said:

    MaxPB said:

    Hmm, a little bit over the top, David. Authoritarian, maybe. Fascist probably not. For someone who doesn't usually fall into the liberal groupthink problem, you seem to have walked directly into the trap this time.

    by David Herdsons definition he would class brexiters and those 17 million who voted leave as fascists then too- a belief in the nation state, secure borders, standing up for the forgotten working classes, not wanting to be controlled by foreign powers, the right of a nation to be self determining, controlling immigration to protect jobs and infrastructure. thats not fascism, thats governing for the people, not allowing the globalists and ruling elites and big multinationals to rule over us.
    No, I wouldn't. Some were, obviously, but then out of 17 million some will be all sorts.

    The Brexit vote was fundamentally different in at least two ways. Firstly, there was no leader to the movement. Fascism needs leaders to focus round because they reject democracy and they reject socialist mass-ownership models (and they applaud strength). Brexit was a triumph of democracy, not a reaction against it.

    And secondly, and even more importantly, while there might well have been some dodgy campaigning regarding Turkey, there wasn't the demonisation of 'the other' that is essential to fascism (and all extreme movements).
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    MikeK said:

    Good Afternoon all.

    Well, well, well! David Herdson proclaims Donald Trump a Fascist. And all the liberal and lefty PBers jump as one to agree with him.

    Lets pull this apart a bit. Now I haven't the writing ability of Herdson to refute the main thesis of his arguments, but refute them I will, and I will refute them by numbers.

    Trump has done the following:
    1. Called some women names. Except for some women, Haven't we all.
    2. Called Muslims names. Except for some muslims, Haven't we all.
    3. Called Mexicans names. Well Mexicans are not our near neigbours, but France is, and Except for some Frenchmen, Haven't we all.
    4. Called for the end of abortion on demand. Well Except for some women, Haven't we all.
    5. Called for the end illegal and massive immigration. Except for some Liberals and Lefties, Haven't we all.
    6. Called for the re-establishment of industry in the country. Almost without exception, Haven't we all.

    I could go on, but you get my drift.

    So Trump the Fascist will go to the White House in January, sans Storm Troopers, sans a Fascist Party, sans organised thugs on the streets, and sans support from the military.

    In the meantime there are thugs and hooligans on the streets from the so called Democratic Party and extreme lefties calling for the dismembering of the recent elections and the possible assasination of Trump before inauguration day.

    Who are the real Fascists here?

    Orwell ; " It will be seen that, as used, the word 'Fascism' is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else."

    There's nothing new about this hysterical nonsense.
    The point of the 'boy who cried wolf' fable is that, in the end, the wolf really does arrive.
    No, that is not the point. We've had this discussion already. The point of the fable is that there are consequences for lying. Read the damn thing and the Moral at the end of the story.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Just for the lolz

    Monmouth Poll
    BREAKING: National likely voters

    HRC 50
    DJT 44
    GJ 4
    JS 1

    - 4% changed mind past 10 days b/c of recent news

    https://t.co/AY2M87xhsc
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Alistair said:

    I take this seriously because it's David, but one of my "good things about Trump winning" (I never did get round to writing out the full list) is that Trump is going to get a whole lot more scrutiny than Clinton would have, and so is paradoxically less likely to cause major damage.

    The Lame stream media were bloody awful at bring in the tank for Clinton. CNN had a Trump staffer as one of their analysts. Who's now quit CNN and will probably get a job in the Trump administration.

    Can you imagine how mental some on here would be going if the party affiliation was reversed?
    When she was at CNN she fed the Clinton team some of the questions that were asked in the debates so I doubt the new administration will be giving Brazile a job!
  • NormNorm Posts: 1,251
    One of Trump's first utterances when the enormity of the becoming the president had dawned on him was "it's complicated". Not the utterance of a confident fascistic dictator but someone who achieved this feat accidentally - I don't think he really expected to win any more than the rest of use whether in the USA or elsewhere. Yes of course he resorted to tactics from the good fascist handbook but more I'd suggest out of opportunism than any real affinity with that creed. Bear in mind the mind was allegedly a Democrat supporter not that long ago.
  • nunununu Posts: 6,024
    edited November 2016
    MTimT said:

    MikeK said:

    Good Afternoon all.

    Well, well, well! David Herdson proclaims Donald Trump a Fascist. And all the liberal and lefty PBers jump as one to agree with him.

    Lets pull this apart a bit. Now I haven't the writing ability of Herdson to refute the main thesis of his arguments, but refute them I will, and I will refute them by numbers.

    Trump has done the following:
    1. Called some women names. Except for some women, Haven't we all.
    2. Called Muslims names. Except for some muslims, Haven't we all.
    3. Called Mexicans names. Well Mexicans are not our near neigbours, but France is, and Except for some Frenchmen, Haven't we all.
    4. Called for the end of abortion on demand. Well Except for some women, Haven't we all.
    5. Called for the end illegal and massive immigration. Except for some Liberals and Lefties, Haven't we all.
    6. Called for the re-establishment of industry in the country. Almost without exception, Haven't we all.

    I could go on, but you get my drift.

    So Trump the Fascist will go to the White House in January, sans Storm Troopers, sans a Fascist Party, sans organised thugs on the streets, and sans support from the military.

    In the meantime there are thugs and hooligans on the streets from the so called Democratic Party and extreme lefties calling for the dismembering of the recent elections and the possible assasination of Trump before inauguration day.

    Who are the real Fascists here?

    Orwell ; " It will be seen that, as used, the word 'Fascism' is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else."

    There's nothing new about this hysterical nonsense.
    The point of the 'boy who cried wolf' fable is that, in the end, the wolf really does arrive.
    No, that is not the point. We've had this discussion already. The point of the fable is that there are consequences for lying. Read the damn thing and the Moral at the end of the story.
    The Democrats basically called Romney and McCain Hitler so when an actual racist came along nobody listened to them.
  • The trouble is, as Kevin Passmore (prof and author of books on Fascism) writes in the Guardain:

    "Yet whatever the similarities, we should think twice before interpreting the present as a re-enactment of the past.

    For one thing, fascism is notoriously hard to define. Decades of research have not enabled academics to agree on a definition."

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/07/donald-trump-nigel-farage-fascists-intolerance

    Note that the Guardian published this article - not all their contributors are jumping on the lazy idea that this is just a rerun of 1930s German all over again.

    Other contributors to this debate:

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/11/absurd-call-trump-fascist/

    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/interrogation/2016/02/is_donald_trump_a_fascist_an_expert_on_fascism_weighs_in.html


    I deliberately avoided using party references that begin with a capital N or names that being with a capital H. The most extreme forms of any phenomenon are rarely useful comparisons for identifying less virulent cases.
  • MTimT said:

    MikeK said:

    Good Afternoon all.

    Well, well, well! David Herdson proclaims Donald Trump a Fascist. And all the liberal and lefty PBers jump as one to agree with him.

    Lets pull this apart a bit. Now I haven't the writing ability of Herdson to refute the main thesis of his arguments, but refute them I will, and I will refute them by numbers.

    Trump has done the following:
    1. Called some women names. Except for some women, Haven't we all.
    2. Called Muslims names. Except for some muslims, Haven't we all.
    3. Called Mexicans names. Well Mexicans are not our near neigbours, but France is, and Except for some Frenchmen, Haven't we all.
    4. Called for the end of abortion on demand. Well Except for some women, Haven't we all.
    5. Called for the end illegal and massive immigration. Except for some Liberals and Lefties, Haven't we all.
    6. Called for the re-establishment of industry in the country. Almost without exception, Haven't we all.

    I could go on, but you get my drift.

    So Trump the Fascist will go to the White House in January, sans Storm Troopers, sans a Fascist Party, sans organised thugs on the streets, and sans support from the military.

    In the meantime there are thugs and hooligans on the streets from the so called Democratic Party and extreme lefties calling for the dismembering of the recent elections and the possible assasination of Trump before inauguration day.

    Who are the real Fascists here?

    Orwell ; " It will be seen that, as used, the word 'Fascism' is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else."

    There's nothing new about this hysterical nonsense.
    The point of the 'boy who cried wolf' fable is that, in the end, the wolf really does arrive.
    No, that is not the point. We've had this discussion already. The point of the fable is that there are consequences for lying. Read the damn thing and the Moral at the end of the story.
    You'd get no argument from me there - liberals who chucked 'fascist' about like confetti committed a crime against the function of language.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited November 2016
    MTimT said:

    HYUFD said:

    I've written a thread header on the French primary race, but since I don't know when, an update:

    75% of the French oppose Trump.

    The effect of the second primary debate (and/or Trump - the fieldwork was Wednesday onwards) was to move votes from Juppé to Fillon, i.e. one centre-right to another (Juppé 36%, Sarkozy 26%, Fillon 20%). Most of these votes come home to Juppé in the second round (now 57 v 43 among all voters).

    I can't see an updated overall 2017 presidential election poll but I can't see any justification on these figures for believe Le Pen will add anything more than a point or two to her 30-32%.



    Most Americans saw Trump unfavourably, and voted for him anyway. There's a difference between opposing Trump the candidate (a narcissistic mysognist/racist etc) and opposing his policy proposals / what he wants to achieve.

    What's the fundamental difference between French people and Brits/Americans that they won't vote for an anti-globalist/populist candidate/referendum?

    The electoral system has held against the FN so far, but MLP knows that her route to power is to convince ordinary socialist party voters that they are better off backing her in round 2 than Juppé - accordingly her campaign will focus strongly on protectionism/frexit, and less on anti-Muslim policies

    Yes, in round 2 Juppe would win a landslide in Paris, just as Clinton won New York and California by a landslide and Remain won London comfortably. However Le Pen will focus her campaign against Juppe on industrial areas in the north, especially around the Pas de Calais, working class socialist areas, rural, traditionalist parts of the south and the Cote d'Azur which is Sarkozy country
    And Lille. Les Ch'tis.
    Yes, the industrial, boring, grey bit in the very north of France you drive through after getting off the ferry or Eurostar before going somewhere more interesting is ideal Le Pen country (especially given the Calais refugee camps were just down the road)
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,620

    MaxPB said:

    Hmm, a little bit over the top, David. Authoritarian, maybe. Fascist probably not. For someone who doesn't usually fall into the liberal groupthink problem, you seem to have walked directly into the trap this time.

    And your evidence for that is?

    I'm not looking at this through the liberal group think. That was why I opened by dismissing the description as insult.

    What we shouldn't do is rule out of hand descriptions simply because they're beyond the normal discourse. The fact is that Trump is beyond normal politics.

    Admittedly, as Malmesbury has said, he doesn't have a paramilitary organisation and isn't explicitly aiming to overturn democracy. But then the former doesn't change what he is; it just makes him less effective in implementing it. And his unwillingness to commit himself to accept the result suggests at least an inclination to ignore democracy, due process and the rule of law - and that wasn't his only such comment: 'jail Hillary' was of the same nature.

    Did he mean it? In a sense it doesn't matter. His willingness to play to that gallery defines what he sees as acceptable limits.
    I would also point out that his rhetoric is, if anything, to reduce foreign adventures/military "operations".

    An interesting point, that is long forgotten, is that before 9/11 Bush and Rumsfeld were working on a plan to reposition the US military. In modern warfare, the big issue is logistics. Tanks, artillery etc are heavy. So either it takes weeks to get things in position, or you end up with projects like the Boeing Pelican to build an insanely large plane.... Or the comedy of the UK FRES program - attempting MBT protection on an air transportable vehicle.

    What Rumsfeld (and advisors) realised was this - that it would be vastly cheaper to position multiple armoured divisions of equipment around the world on existing bases. But in shrink wrap storage. The officers and men would be in the US, near their home - training on a different set of equipment. When required, it would be easy to fly the troops to their equipment.

    In fact a version of this already happens - when units go to training areas, they rarely take their heavy equipment. They use a set a the site.

    So the Bush/Rumsfeld plan was to pre-position equipment at bases around the world, bring the troops home (saving billions). It would also pull spending from abroad to home, removing the need for base closures in the US (very popular). Less American armies in other people's countries (Yay!). It would have massively easy the "stretch" on the US military, which was a problem at the time....

    Then 9/11 happened.

    As a final point - the plan was that the bases in Saudi Arabia would have been among the first to move to the division-in-the-original-wrapping-mode.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''The Democrats basically called Romney and McCain Hitler so when an actual racist came along nobody listened to them.''

    Quite.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,263
    MikeK said:



    Trump has done the following:
    1. Called some women names. Except for some women, Haven't we all.
    2. Called Muslims names. Except for some muslims, Haven't we all.
    3. Called Mexicans names. Well Mexicans are not our near neigbours, but France is, and Except for some Frenchmen, Haven't we all.
    4. Called for the end of abortion on demand. Well Except for some women, Haven't we all.
    5. Called for the end illegal and massive immigration. Except for some Liberals and Lefties, Haven't we all.
    6. Called for the re-establishment of industry in the country. Almost without exception, Haven't we all.

    1,2,3,5: no. You're doing what lots of us do - assuming that everyone is like the people you know. I wouldn't dream of talking about women or Muslims or the French in the terms that he did, and I in turn don't know anyone who does. Most generalisations are wrong...

    Incidentally, the current Reith lecturer is really interesting, agree with him or not, on Western civilisation:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/nov/09/western-civilisation-appiah-reith-lecture?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=Long+reads+base&utm_term=199378&subid=6274295&CMP=ema-1133
  • Mr. Dawning (and others), that's the inflation of outrage, it overuses serious terms and dilutes their very seriousness. Language is of critical importance and one of the driving forces behind the SJW/snowflake/leftwing and fascist/nationalist/rightwing factions (being broadbrush about it) because people use the exact same terms to mean wildly different things, and then assume the other side are horrendous.

    For example, human rights contraventions apply to the (literal) concentration camps in North Korea and evicting squatter gypsies from Dale Farm [think that was the name] after a decade of judicial faffing about.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    edited November 2016
    Earlier this week CNN.com listed 24 different theories that pundits have provided for why Trump won... This tells you that someone just dropped a cognitive dissonance cluster bomb on the public. Heads exploded. Cognitive dissonance set in. Weird theories came out. This is the cleanest and clearest example of cognitive dissonance you will ever see...

    This brings me to the anti-Trump protests. The protesters look as though they are protesting Trump, but they are not. They are locked in an imaginary world and battling their own hallucinations of the future. Here’s the setup that triggered them.

    1. They believe they are smart and well-informed.

    2. Their good judgement told them Trump is OBVIOUSLY the next Hitler, or something similarly bad.

    3. Half of the voters of the United States – including a lot of smart people – voted Trump into office anyway...

    In a rational world it would be obvious that Trump supporters include lots of brilliant and well-informed people. That fact – as obvious as it would seem – is invisible to the folks who can’t even imagine a world in which their powers of perception could be so wrong. To reconcile their world, they have to imagine all Trump supporters as defective in some moral or cognitive way, or both...

    That’s why the protestors live in a movie in which they are fighting against a monster called Trump and you live in a movie where you got the president you wanted for the changes you prefer. Same planet, different realities.

    http://blog.dilbert.com/post/153080448451/the-cognitive-dissonance-cluster-bomb
  • PlatoSaid said:

    I'm clearly living in a parallel universe. Fascist?

    Nope. It's silly OTTness worthy of the cry bullies demanding the overturn of a democratic election.

    I'm sorry. The strength of your evidence-based response forces me to recoil in shame.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,046

    MikeK said:

    Good Afternoon all.

    Well, well, well! David Herdson proclaims Donald Trump a Fascist. And all the liberal and lefty PBers jump as one to agree with him.

    Lets pull this apart a bit. Now I haven't the writing ability of Herdson to refute the main thesis of his arguments, but refute them I will, and I will refute them by numbers.

    Trump has done the following:
    1. Called some women names. Except for some women, Haven't we all.
    2. Called Muslims names. Except for some muslims, Haven't we all.
    3. Called Mexicans names. Well Mexicans are not our near neigbours, but France is, and Except for some Frenchmen, Haven't we all.
    4. Called for the end of abortion on demand. Well Except for some women, Haven't we all.
    5. Called for the end illegal and massive immigration. Except for some Liberals and Lefties, Haven't we all.
    6. Called for the re-establishment of industry in the country. Almost without exception, Haven't we all.

    I could go on, but you get my drift.

    So Trump the Fascist will go to the White House in January, sans Storm Troopers, sans a Fascist Party, sans organised thugs on the streets, and sans support from the military.

    In the meantime there are thugs and hooligans on the streets from the so called Democratic Party and extreme lefties calling for the dismembering of the recent elections and the possible assasination of Trump before inauguration day.

    Who are the real Fascists here?

    Orwell ; " It will be seen that, as used, the word 'Fascism' is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else."

    There's nothing new about this hysterical nonsense.
    The point of the 'boy who cried wolf' fable is that, in the end, the wolf really does arrive.
    Precisely. When real fascists arrive, using the term will hold little power.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    MaxPB said:

    Hmm, a little bit over the top, David. Authoritarian, maybe. Fascist probably not. For someone who doesn't usually fall into the liberal groupthink problem, you seem to have walked directly into the trap this time.

    And your evidence for that is?

    I'm not looking at this through the liberal group think. That was why I opened by dismissing the description as insult.

    What we shouldn't do is rule out of hand descriptions simply because they're beyond the normal discourse. The fact is that Trump is beyond normal politics.

    Admittedly, as Malmesbury has said, he doesn't have a paramilitary organisation and isn't explicitly aiming to overturn democracy. But then the former doesn't change what he is; it just makes him less effective in implementing it. And his unwillingness to commit himself to accept the result suggests at least an inclination to ignore democracy, due process and the rule of law - and that wasn't his only such comment: 'jail Hillary' was of the same nature.

    Did he mean it? In a sense it doesn't matter. His willingness to play to that gallery defines what he sees as acceptable limits.
    Yes but look at his one interview since taking the victory. The special prosecutor for Hillary had been kicked into the long grass, repealing Obamacare has been watered down to keep the most important parts of it.

    If he's a fascist then I don't think he's a very good one.

    Also, we look at normal politics from our decidedly mundane point of view, in southern or eastern Europe, Trump would just be like any other politician. In the UK he disgusts our sensibilities, but he is not that different from Abe, Modi, Orban or even Beata Szydło who are all right wing populists who come well short of fascism. Trump is naturally slightly further to the right because the centre of politics is further to the right.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,263
    Powerful, well-argued article by David, and an excellent read. I'm agnostic about how Trump will turn out - I see him as unscrupulous and willing to say literally anything to get votes, but not necessarily going to be a bad President: I don't think we know.

    But I do agree that that very willingness to say anything has evoked fascist sentiment and made it more mainstream. I don't necessarily think that's why he did it, but it's objectively had that effect, and that's appalling In itself.
  • The trouble is, as Kevin Passmore (prof and author of books on Fascism) writes in the Guardain:

    "Yet whatever the similarities, we should think twice before interpreting the present as a re-enactment of the past.

    For one thing, fascism is notoriously hard to define. Decades of research have not enabled academics to agree on a definition."

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/07/donald-trump-nigel-farage-fascists-intolerance

    Note that the Guardian published this article - not all their contributors are jumping on the lazy idea that this is just a rerun of 1930s German all over again.

    Other contributors to this debate:

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/11/absurd-call-trump-fascist/

    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/interrogation/2016/02/is_donald_trump_a_fascist_an_expert_on_fascism_weighs_in.html


    I deliberately avoided using party references that begin with a capital N or names that being with a capital H. The most extreme forms of any phenomenon are rarely useful comparisons for identifying less virulent cases.
    Very good point. I suspect what's upsetting the Trump supporters is that they're equating 'Fascism' with 'Hitlerism'. Adherence to the latter is evil, end of story. Albeit with enormous difficulty, Fascism can at least be framed as something lacking moral dubiousness. That's what we should be discussing - instead of quibbling over labels - but the Trump supporters seem reluctant to engage.
  • nunununu Posts: 6,024

    Dave Wasserman – Verified account ‏@Redistrict

    Bernie Sanders got 18,183 (6%) write-in votes in Vermont...but it's kind of interesting who else got write-in votes: https://vtelectionresults.sec.state.vt.us/Index.html#/federal
  • I take this seriously because it's David, but one of my "good things about Trump winning" (I never did get round to writing out the full list) is that Trump is going to get a whole lot more scrutiny than Clinton would have, and so is paradoxically less likely to cause major damage.

    There would be a certain irony if Trump turned out to be completely ineffective in being able to pull any of the levers of government to ant effect after the campaign he's just run. But just because Moseley's BUF was a bad joke, it doesn't mean they didn't mean it.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,979
    GeoffM said:

    Alistair said:

    I take this seriously because it's David, but one of my "good things about Trump winning" (I never did get round to writing out the full list) is that Trump is going to get a whole lot more scrutiny than Clinton would have, and so is paradoxically less likely to cause major damage.

    The Lame stream media were bloody awful at bring in the tank for Clinton. CNN had a Trump staffer as one of their analysts. Who's now quit CNN and will probably get a job in the Trump administration.

    Can you imagine how mental some on here would be going if the party affiliation was reversed?
    When she was at CNN she fed the Clinton team some of the questions that were asked in the debates so I doubt the new administration will be giving Brazile a job!
    I suspect that was to help Hillary win against Sanders which was very helpful for Trump. He chose his opponent.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,279
    Some French MPs with too much time on their hands?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37954629
  • weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    PlatoSaid said:

    Just for the lolz

    Monmouth Poll
    BREAKING: National likely voters

    HRC 50
    DJT 44
    GJ 4
    JS 1

    - 4% changed mind past 10 days b/c of recent news

    https://t.co/AY2M87xhsc

    No - that is just the 4% inbuilt Hillary Clinton Poling Bias.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    edited November 2016
    I really do like Haidt - been a fan for years. He seems pertinent to this thread - he covers a lot of ground in this discussion re the culture wars.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKfwde2cOEk
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Western voters are now aware what a great power mass immigration is, and how the person who controls it can control countries and continents.

    Electorates want that power for themselves. Trump talked a lot about immigration and promised to enforce existing rules on it. So he won.

    Every US leader in future will have to have an explicit and tested manifesto on immigration. Or be out of power. Same in Britain. France. Germany eventually.

    Mass immigration is the nuclear weapon of the 21st century and voters want to know in detail what their prospective leaders will do with it.

    That's not fascism, its common sense.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,046
    We live in such sadly declined times - we can't even do proper fascists.
  • A wonderfully written piece, though I disagree. Donald Trump is utterly unfit for the office of president but so far he looks more like Silvio Berlusconi than Benito Mussolini.

    It is wryly amusing how determinedly some Leavers ignore the return lessons from the US election, the most obvious of which is that the manner of victory can make the victory itself pyrrhic.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    edited November 2016
    F1: mostly done the pre-race piece but just trying to work out whether a short odds bet makes sense.

    Edited extra bit: pre-qualifying*, even.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,748
    edited November 2016
    It's interesting that two prevalent views of Trump are that it's too early too tell what sort of POTUS he'll be, and that he definitely isn't a fascist. Thanks goodness it's not the same people holding these two views.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,979
    edited November 2016
    nunu said:


    Dave Wasserman – Verified account ‏@Redistrict

    Bernie Sanders got 18,183 (6%) write-in votes in Vermont...but it's kind of interesting who else got write-in votes: https://vtelectionresults.sec.state.vt.us/Index.html#/federal

    Yes. I see Edward Snowden, Benedict Cumberbatch, Bruce Springsteen and Spanky Payne each got a write-in vote for President.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053

    MikeK said:



    Trump has done the following:
    1. Called some women names. Except for some women, Haven't we all.
    2. Called Muslims names. Except for some muslims, Haven't we all.
    3. Called Mexicans names. Well Mexicans are not our near neigbours, but France is, and Except for some Frenchmen, Haven't we all.
    4. Called for the end of abortion on demand. Well Except for some women, Haven't we all.
    5. Called for the end illegal and massive immigration. Except for some Liberals and Lefties, Haven't we all.
    6. Called for the re-establishment of industry in the country. Almost without exception, Haven't we all.

    1,2,3,5: no. You're doing what lots of us do - assuming that everyone is like the people you know. I wouldn't dream of talking about women or Muslims or the French in the terms that he did, and I in turn don't know anyone who does. Most generalisations are wrong...

    Incidentally, the current Reith lecturer is really interesting, agree with him or not, on Western civilisation:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/nov/09/western-civilisation-appiah-reith-lecture?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=Long+reads+base&utm_term=199378&subid=6274295&CMP=ema-1133
    A class III Halo is on the way to you, Nick. Why class III? Because I refuse to believe that you've never called a Frenchman a Frog!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    kjohnw said:

    MaxPB said:

    Hmm, a little bit over the top, David. Authoritarian, maybe. Fascist probably not. For someone who doesn't usually fall into the liberal groupthink problem, you seem to have walked directly into the trap this time.

    by David Herdsons definition he would class brexiters and those 17 million who voted leave as fascists then too- a belief in the nation state, secure borders, standing up for the forgotten working classes, not wanting to be controlled by foreign powers, the right of a nation to be self determining, controlling immigration to protect jobs and infrastructure. thats not fascism, thats governing for the people, not allowing the globalists and ruling elites and big multinationals to rule over us.
    No, I wouldn't. Some were, obviously, but then out of 17 million some will be all sorts.

    The Brexit vote was fundamentally different in at least two ways. Firstly, there was no leader to the movement. Fascism needs leaders to focus round because they reject democracy and they reject socialist mass-ownership models (and they applaud strength). Brexit was a triumph of democracy, not a reaction against it.

    And secondly, and even more importantly, while there might well have been some dodgy campaigning regarding Turkey, there wasn't the demonisation of 'the other' that is essential to fascism (and all extreme movements).
    Boris and Farage were clearly the leaders of the Leave campaign and it was immigration, particularly from Eastern Europe and potentially from Muslim Turkey which was the fuel which fired the Leave victory
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,787

    It is wryly amusing how determinedly some Leavers ignore the return lessons from the US election, the most obvious of which is that the manner of victory can make the victory itself pyrrhic.

    I think you're reaching with that point. Trump will become President in January; his victory was real and power is his to use as he sees fit.

    This is in contrast to Leave where it was an idea that won, not a candidate, a party, or even a faction. Ideas can't change tack when faced with the realities of the world.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 11,183

    MaxPB said:
    I think that's the funniest story for weeks.
    Yes, that was headlining the Daily Mail too. Whatever will they do when their beloved EU is no longer around?
    I've actually experienced something similar - it wasn't free parking, it was redeeming a voucher in Sainsbury's, and it couldn't be done because they aren't allowed to promote formula.

    This isn't supermarkets being bloody-minded. Vouchers, car park tickets etc are redeemed automatically by the till software, which, I can say from experience, is a not insignificant cost for the supermarkets in terms of programming time for the makers of till software. It's not hard to do, but it will take several days of someone quite expensive to programme in the functionality that certain items don't trigger these exceptions. They wouldn't do it if they weren't compelled to do so. They do so because they are forced to do so by law.

    Now, it happens to be EU law, and it's quite possible that had the EU not put this law in place then our own lawmakers would have done so. But this isn't being the eurosceptic press blaming unlikely things on Europe, it is genuinely the case that this relatively minor inconvenience to people shopping for formula and not much else, and rather major inconvenience to the retailers, is caused by EU law.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383

    We live in such sadly declined times - we can't even do proper fascists.

    Just look at the OTT nature of PB at times. Endless accusations of waycism, x-phobe, fascist or whatever as terms of abuse to shut down alternative arguments.

    This is a sophisticated audience and it's still used dozens of times a day.

    It's totally lost any potency for me. And the SJW in the USA have just lost big time - whilst at the peak of their powers. They're done. Average people, with normal mainstream views have had a skinful and said No More.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,771
    weejonnie said:

    "But he’s also tarred the majority of Mexican immigrants as rapists and of muslims (and only muslims) as potential terrorists."

    I know - those radical pentecostal terrorists are absolutely ripping Europe apart.

    He said (of ILLEGAL Mexican immigrants)

    “When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending the best. They’re not sending you, they’re sending people that have lots of problems and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bring crime. They’re rapists… And some, I assume, are good people.”

    I am sure that the women of Cologne could sympathise.

    Does he believe that the Mexican government *sends* immigrants, that there's some prices where the government says "ok, you Pedro, you're off to the US, and you, Ricardo, you stay here."?
  • Miss Plato, some of that is a hangover from the referendum campaign.
  • Cookie said:


    I've actually experienced something similar - it wasn't free parking, it was redeeming a voucher in Sainsbury's, and it couldn't be done because they aren't allowed to promote formula.

    This isn't supermarkets being bloody-minded. Vouchers, car park tickets etc are redeemed automatically by the till software, which, I can say from experience, is a not insignificant cost for the supermarkets in terms of programming time for the makers of till software. It's not hard to do, but it will take several days of someone quite expensive to programme in the functionality that certain items don't trigger these exceptions. They wouldn't do it if they weren't compelled to do so. They do so because they are forced to do so by law.

    Now, it happens to be EU law, and it's quite possible that had the EU not put this law in place then our own lawmakers would have done so. But this isn't being the eurosceptic press blaming unlikely things on Europe, it is genuinely the case that this relatively minor inconvenience to people shopping for formula and not much else, and rather major inconvenience to the retailers, is caused by EU law.

    What I like about this particular story is the multi-way clash between a bunch of absurdities:

    - The right-on nonsense about formula milk
    - The fact that it's EU right-on nonsense
    - The painting of Tesco as villains for obeying this nonsensical law
    - The fact that anyone is so short of things to complain about that it's a national story that someone didn't get free parking.
  • Cookie said:

    MaxPB said:
    I think that's the funniest story for weeks.
    Yes, that was headlining the Daily Mail too. Whatever will they do when their beloved EU is no longer around?
    I've actually experienced something similar - it wasn't free parking, it was redeeming a voucher in Sainsbury's, and it couldn't be done because they aren't allowed to promote formula.

    This isn't supermarkets being bloody-minded. Vouchers, car park tickets etc are redeemed automatically by the till software, which, I can say from experience, is a not insignificant cost for the supermarkets in terms of programming time for the makers of till software. It's not hard to do, but it will take several days of someone quite expensive to programme in the functionality that certain items don't trigger these exceptions. They wouldn't do it if they weren't compelled to do so. They do so because they are forced to do so by law.

    Now, it happens to be EU law, and it's quite possible that had the EU not put this law in place then our own lawmakers would have done so. But this isn't being the eurosceptic press blaming unlikely things on Europe, it is genuinely the case that this relatively minor inconvenience to people shopping for formula and not much else, and rather major inconvenience to the retailers, is caused by EU law.
    They charge your for supermarket parking down south? Jeezo.
  • F1: I decided against the tip in the end, after some contemplation:
    http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.co.uk/2016/11/brazil-pre-qualifying-2016.html

    Qualifying starts at 4pm. The pre-race piece will be up tomorrow morning.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    Julie Miller:
    "Nicola Sturgeon has just announced that although Scotland have been defeated 3-0 at Wembley in tonight's football, this result is not going to be accepted by the Scottish people because "we didn't want to lose and it's not the result we wanted"..... she demands the game be replayed until she gets the result she wants....." :)
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,787
    rcs1000 said:

    weejonnie said:

    "But he’s also tarred the majority of Mexican immigrants as rapists and of muslims (and only muslims) as potential terrorists."

    I know - those radical pentecostal terrorists are absolutely ripping Europe apart.

    He said (of ILLEGAL Mexican immigrants)

    “When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending the best. They’re not sending you, they’re sending people that have lots of problems and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bring crime. They’re rapists… And some, I assume, are good people.”

    I am sure that the women of Cologne could sympathise.

    Does he believe that the Mexican government *sends* immigrants, that there's some prices where the government says "ok, you Pedro, you're off to the US, and you, Ricardo, you stay here."?
    Clearly he doesn't.

    People make their own decisions on where to move. That's why all the Hollywood refugees from Trumpland are threatening to go to Canada, not the much closer Mexico.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,046
    edited November 2016

    Cookie said:

    MaxPB said:
    I think that's the funniest story for weeks.
    Yes, that was headlining the Daily Mail too. Whatever will they do when their beloved EU is no longer around?
    I've actually experienced something similar - it wasn't free parking, it was redeeming a voucher in Sainsbury's, and it couldn't be done because they aren't allowed to promote formula.

    This isn't supermarkets being bloody-minded. Vouchers, car park tickets etc are redeemed automatically by the till software, which, I can say from experience, is a not insignificant cost for the supermarkets in terms of programming time for the makers of till software. It's not hard to do, but it will take several days of someone quite expensive to programme in the functionality that certain items don't trigger these exceptions. They wouldn't do it if they weren't compelled to do so. They do so because they are forced to do so by law.

    Now, it happens to be EU law, and it's quite possible that had the EU not put this law in place then our own lawmakers would have done so. But this isn't being the eurosceptic press blaming unlikely things on Europe, it is genuinely the case that this relatively minor inconvenience to people shopping for formula and not much else, and rather major inconvenience to the retailers, is caused by EU law.
    They charge your for supermarket parking down south? Jeezo.
    You have to shop.
  • Cookie said:


    I've actually experienced something similar - it wasn't free parking, it was redeeming a voucher in Sainsbury's, and it couldn't be done because they aren't allowed to promote formula.

    This isn't supermarkets being bloody-minded. Vouchers, car park tickets etc are redeemed automatically by the till software, which, I can say from experience, is a not insignificant cost for the supermarkets in terms of programming time for the makers of till software. It's not hard to do, but it will take several days of someone quite expensive to programme in the functionality that certain items don't trigger these exceptions. They wouldn't do it if they weren't compelled to do so. They do so because they are forced to do so by law.

    Now, it happens to be EU law, and it's quite possible that had the EU not put this law in place then our own lawmakers would have done so. But this isn't being the eurosceptic press blaming unlikely things on Europe, it is genuinely the case that this relatively minor inconvenience to people shopping for formula and not much else, and rather major inconvenience to the retailers, is caused by EU law.

    What I like about this particular story is the multi-way clash between a bunch of absurdities:

    - The right-on nonsense about formula milk
    - The fact that it's EU right-on nonsense
    - The painting of Tesco as villains for obeying this nonsensical law
    - The fact that anyone is so short of things to complain about that it's a national story that someone didn't get free parking.
    Today a dog being taken for a walk on the beach is a news story:

    http://dlvr.it/MfFJfT
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    Cookie said:


    I've actually experienced something similar - it wasn't free parking, it was redeeming a voucher in Sainsbury's, and it couldn't be done because they aren't allowed to promote formula.

    This isn't supermarkets being bloody-minded. Vouchers, car park tickets etc are redeemed automatically by the till software, which, I can say from experience, is a not insignificant cost for the supermarkets in terms of programming time for the makers of till software. It's not hard to do, but it will take several days of someone quite expensive to programme in the functionality that certain items don't trigger these exceptions. They wouldn't do it if they weren't compelled to do so. They do so because they are forced to do so by law.

    Now, it happens to be EU law, and it's quite possible that had the EU not put this law in place then our own lawmakers would have done so. But this isn't being the eurosceptic press blaming unlikely things on Europe, it is genuinely the case that this relatively minor inconvenience to people shopping for formula and not much else, and rather major inconvenience to the retailers, is caused by EU law.

    What I like about this particular story is the multi-way clash between a bunch of absurdities:

    - The right-on nonsense about formula milk
    - The fact that it's EU right-on nonsense
    - The painting of Tesco as villains for obeying this nonsensical law
    - The fact that anyone is so short of things to complain about that it's a national story that someone didn't get free parking.
    Today a dog being taken for a walk on the beach is a news story:

    http://dlvr.it/MfFJfT
    It's as if there is nothing else going on in the world!
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    edited November 2016

    rcs1000 said:

    weejonnie said:

    "But he’s also tarred the majority of Mexican immigrants as rapists and of muslims (and only muslims) as potential terrorists."

    I know - those radical pentecostal terrorists are absolutely ripping Europe apart.

    He said (of ILLEGAL Mexican immigrants)

    “When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending the best. They’re not sending you, they’re sending people that have lots of problems and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bring crime. They’re rapists… And some, I assume, are good people.”

    I am sure that the women of Cologne could sympathise.

    Does he believe that the Mexican government *sends* immigrants, that there's some prices where the government says "ok, you Pedro, you're off to the US, and you, Ricardo, you stay here."?
    Clearly he doesn't.

    People make their own decisions on where to move. That's why all the Hollywood refugees from Trumpland are threatening to go to Canada, not the much closer Mexico.
    Quite. Luvvies wanting to snuggle up in liberal largely White Christian crime free Canada says it all.
  • The trouble is, as Kevin Passmore (prof and author of books on Fascism) writes in the Guardain:

    "Yet whatever the similarities, we should think twice before interpreting the present as a re-enactment of the past.

    For one thing, fascism is notoriously hard to define. Decades of research have not enabled academics to agree on a definition."

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/07/donald-trump-nigel-farage-fascists-intolerance

    Note that the Guardian published this article - not all their contributors are jumping on the lazy idea that this is just a rerun of 1930s German all over again.

    Other contributors to this debate:

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/11/absurd-call-trump-fascist/

    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/interrogation/2016/02/is_donald_trump_a_fascist_an_expert_on_fascism_weighs_in.html


    I deliberately avoided using party references that begin with a capital N or names that being with a capital H. The most extreme forms of any phenomenon are rarely useful comparisons for identifying less virulent cases.
    Very good point. I suspect what's upsetting the Trump supporters is that they're equating 'Fascism' with 'Hitlerism'. Adherence to the latter is evil, end of story. Albeit with enormous difficulty, Fascism can at least be framed as something lacking moral dubiousness. That's what we should be discussing - instead of quibbling over labels - but the Trump supporters seem reluctant to engage.
    Given that they have spent the last six months being dismissed by the left as racist, sex is the and deplorable, what on earth makes you think they might engage?
  • CookieCookie Posts: 11,183

    Cookie said:

    MaxPB said:
    I think that's the funniest story for weeks.
    Yes, that was headlining the Daily Mail too. Whatever will they do when their beloved EU is no longer around?
    I've actually experienced something similar - it wasn't free parking, it was redeeming a voucher in Sainsbury's, and it couldn't be done because they aren't allowed to promote formula.

    This isn't supermarkets being bloody-minded. Vouchers, car park tickets etc are redeemed automatically by the till software, which, I can say from experience, is a not insignificant cost for the supermarkets in terms of programming time for the makers of till software. It's not hard to do, but it will take several days of someone quite expensive to programme in the functionality that certain items don't trigger these exceptions. They wouldn't do it if they weren't compelled to do so. They do so because they are forced to do so by law.

    Now, it happens to be EU law, and it's quite possible that had the EU not put this law in place then our own lawmakers would have done so. But this isn't being the eurosceptic press blaming unlikely things on Europe, it is genuinely the case that this relatively minor inconvenience to people shopping for formula and not much else, and rather major inconvenience to the retailers, is caused by EU law.
    They charge your for supermarket parking down south? Jeezo.
    "Down South"? I'm from Manchester. Fights have been started over less!

    *gets off high horse"

    Actually, it's fairly common - tends to be where the supermarket car park would otherwise be used by commuters to park and ride, or in busy tourist towns where parking is at a premium and they need to keep the spaces for supermarket users. It's not a big deal, and you get your pound back if you spend £5 shopping there.

    As Richard Nabavi says, it's a clash of absurdities. It's a relatively minor inconvenience and not one I'd ever thought to complain about. But my point is that it is a relatively minor inconvenience which, genuinely, stems from the EU; it isn't a figment of the imagination of the Eurosceptic press.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    rcs1000 said:

    weejonnie said:

    "But he’s also tarred the majority of Mexican immigrants as rapists and of muslims (and only muslims) as potential terrorists."

    I know - those radical pentecostal terrorists are absolutely ripping Europe apart.

    He said (of ILLEGAL Mexican immigrants)

    “When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending the best. They’re not sending you, they’re sending people that have lots of problems and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bring crime. They’re rapists… And some, I assume, are good people.”

    I am sure that the women of Cologne could sympathise.

    Does he believe that the Mexican government *sends* immigrants, that there's some prices where the government says "ok, you Pedro, you're off to the US, and you, Ricardo, you stay here."?
    Clearly nobody is saying that there is a notice board.

    But that's not to say that the govt doesn't seek to encourage a social group of collective unemployable Pedros to leave the country and on the other hand give tax incentives, for example, for those working in Ricardo's factories to stay.
  • Barnesian said:

    nunu said:


    Dave Wasserman – Verified account ‏@Redistrict

    Bernie Sanders got 18,183 (6%) write-in votes in Vermont...but it's kind of interesting who else got write-in votes: https://vtelectionresults.sec.state.vt.us/Index.html#/federal

    Yes. I see Edward Snowden, Benedict Cumberbatch, Bruce Springsteen and Spanky Payne each got a write-in vote for President.
    So did Ralph Wiggum :lol:
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    A great article and the guardian would love it. For me the problem is that it uses the label [not true I think] which for so many is sufficient to close down all further discussion - in exactly the same way people use sexism/racism, etc - once the label is there you don't get a hearing. This is the very approach which has produced Trump and Brexit et al. Trump is no fascist and neither are his supporters - they want a decent living and a hearing. This kind of response shuts that all down although it is clearly not the author's intention.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    nunu said:


    Dave Wasserman – Verified account ‏@Redistrict

    Bernie Sanders got 18,183 (6%) write-in votes in Vermont...but it's kind of interesting who else got write-in votes: https://vtelectionresults.sec.state.vt.us/Index.html#/federal

    Hell, I'd vote for Vermin Supreme!
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,787
    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    MaxPB said:
    I think that's the funniest story for weeks.
    Yes, that was headlining the Daily Mail too. Whatever will they do when their beloved EU is no longer around?
    I've actually experienced something similar - it wasn't free parking, it was redeeming a voucher in Sainsbury's, and it couldn't be done because they aren't allowed to promote formula.

    This isn't supermarkets being bloody-minded. Vouchers, car park tickets etc are redeemed automatically by the till software, which, I can say from experience, is a not insignificant cost for the supermarkets in terms of programming time for the makers of till software. It's not hard to do, but it will take several days of someone quite expensive to programme in the functionality that certain items don't trigger these exceptions. They wouldn't do it if they weren't compelled to do so. They do so because they are forced to do so by law.

    Now, it happens to be EU law, and it's quite possible that had the EU not put this law in place then our own lawmakers would have done so. But this isn't being the eurosceptic press blaming unlikely things on Europe, it is genuinely the case that this relatively minor inconvenience to people shopping for formula and not much else, and rather major inconvenience to the retailers, is caused by EU law.
    They charge your for supermarket parking down south? Jeezo.
    "Down South"? I'm from Manchester. Fights have been started over less!

    *gets off high horse"

    Actually, it's fairly common - tends to be where the supermarket car park would otherwise be used by commuters to park and ride, or in busy tourist towns where parking is at a premium and they need to keep the spaces for supermarket users. It's not a big deal, and you get your pound back if you spend £5 shopping there.

    As Richard Nabavi says, it's a clash of absurdities. It's a relatively minor inconvenience and not one I'd ever thought to complain about. But my point is that it is a relatively minor inconvenience which, genuinely, stems from the EU; it isn't a figment of the imagination of the Eurosceptic press.
    It's a wrong-headed interpretation of the directive. If they refunded the parking charge only for buying specific items that might count as promotion but as it stands this just sounds like they have an over-zealous compliance officer who is causing them to waste money implementing a restriction they don't need.
  • weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    MaxPB said:

    Cookie said:


    I've actually experienced something similar - it wasn't free parking, it was redeeming a voucher in Sainsbury's, and it couldn't be done because they aren't allowed to promote formula.

    This isn't supermarkets being bloody-minded. Vouchers, car park tickets etc are redeemed automatically by the till software, which, I can say from experience, is a not insignificant cost for the supermarkets in terms of programming time for the makers of till software. It's not hard to do, but it will take several days of someone quite expensive to programme in the functionality that certain items don't trigger these exceptions. They wouldn't do it if they weren't compelled to do so. They do so because they are forced to do so by law.

    Now, it happens to be EU law, and it's quite possible that had the EU not put this law in place then our own lawmakers would have done so. But this isn't being the eurosceptic press blaming unlikely things on Europe, it is genuinely the case that this relatively minor inconvenience to people shopping for formula and not much else, and rather major inconvenience to the retailers, is caused by EU law.

    What I like about this particular story is the multi-way clash between a bunch of absurdities:

    - The right-on nonsense about formula milk
    - The fact that it's EU right-on nonsense
    - The painting of Tesco as villains for obeying this nonsensical law
    - The fact that anyone is so short of things to complain about that it's a national story that someone didn't get free parking.
    Today a dog being taken for a walk on the beach is a news story:

    http://dlvr.it/MfFJfT
    It's as if there is nothing else going on in the world!
    There is - but it's a nice (but sad) story all the same - and we need nice stories since most of what gets published in newspapers tend to be tragic. (Tram casualties etc).
  • JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,790
    Write-in votes in Vermont (including 1 each for Ronald Reagan and Dolly Parton):

    https://vtelectionresults.sec.state.vt.us/Index.html#/federal

    Why are several of the names listed more than once?
  • She should have thought about that before she stood up against democracy, quite frankly.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,787
    JohnLoony said:

    Why are several of the names listed more than once?

    Clearly a form of rigging to suppress Mitt Romney's vote.
  • She should have thought about that before she stood up against democracy, quite frankly.
    'She was asking for it'
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    She should have thought about that before she stood up against democracy, quite frankly.

    ...for the rule of law.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Scoyland-Aus game is good
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited November 2016
    rcs1000 said:

    weejonnie said:

    "But he’s also tarred the majority of Mexican immigrants as rapists and of muslims (and only muslims) as potential terrorists."

    I know - those radical pentecostal terrorists are absolutely ripping Europe apart.

    He said (of ILLEGAL Mexican immigrants)

    “When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending the best. They’re not sending you, they’re sending people that have lots of problems and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bring crime. They’re rapists… And some, I assume, are good people.”

    I am sure that the women of Cologne could sympathise.

    Does he believe that the Mexican government *sends* immigrants, that there's some prices where the government says "ok, you Pedro, you're off to the US, and you, Ricardo, you stay here."?
    Mexico is a lovely country. I once went on a long road trip down the Pacific coast, starting in Tuscon, crossing the border at Nogales. The Sonora desert is beautiful, and the train journey up the Copper Canyon a real treat. At the top of the Canyon we hired some horses and rode for hours through a landscape the equal of the Grand Canyon, yet no more than a dozen of so tourists.

    The problems of crime in the border areas is much worse now, but 20 years ago it was quite safe. This problem is not of Mexican making so much as US. The drug trade is driven by US demand, and the traffic of drugs going North and guns coming South is what has made the border areas so dreadful at present.

    I got as far south as Puerto Vallarta, and would love to get further South.
  • Old Frumey sure has got the needle for Don.

    https://twitter.com/davidfrum/status/797455563743444992
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Actual rucking.
  • She should have thought about that before she stood up against democracy, quite frankly.
    'She was asking for it'
    If she succeeds in keeping us in the EU against the wishes of the people, a few dumb tweeters are going to be the last of the country's worries.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @AnthonyDuffy: Amused that Huw Jones has scored more points against Australia in 27mins than all of Wales managed last week in 80!
    #SCOvAUS
    #Scotland
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,787

    If she succeeds in keeping us in the EU against the wishes of the people, a few dumb tweeters are going to be the last of the country's worries.

    And if she succeeds in changing the will of the people I presume you'll be in favour of abiding by it?
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    JohnLoony said:

    Write-in votes in Vermont (including 1 each for Ronald Reagan and Dolly Parton):

    https://vtelectionresults.sec.state.vt.us/Index.html#/federal

    Why are several of the names listed more than once?

    The write in votes for Donald Trump show a certain lack of understanding of how the ballot works!
  • GeoffM said:

    rcs1000 said:

    weejonnie said:

    "But he’s also tarred the majority of Mexican immigrants as rapists and of muslims (and only muslims) as potential terrorists."

    I know - those radical pentecostal terrorists are absolutely ripping Europe apart.

    He said (of ILLEGAL Mexican immigrants)

    “When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending the best. They’re not sending you, they’re sending people that have lots of problems and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bring crime. They’re rapists… And some, I assume, are good people.”

    I am sure that the women of Cologne could sympathise.

    Does he believe that the Mexican government *sends* immigrants, that there's some prices where the government says "ok, you Pedro, you're off to the US, and you, Ricardo, you stay here."?
    Clearly nobody is saying that there is a notice board.

    But that's not to say that the govt doesn't seek to encourage a social group of collective unemployable Pedros to leave the country and on the other hand give tax incentives, for example, for those working in Ricardo's factories to stay.
    That would be those unemployable Pedros who cross the border and get employment in the US would it? 11 million of them who are working in the US and keeping the economy of the Southern States running. After all the US benefits system is renowned for its generosity isn't it?

    Personally I suspect the US economy benefits massively from large numbers of single minded and hard working people coming seeking employment and a better life.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    rcs1000 said:

    weejonnie said:

    "But he’s also tarred the majority of Mexican immigrants as rapists and of muslims (and only muslims) as potential terrorists."

    I know - those radical pentecostal terrorists are absolutely ripping Europe apart.

    He said (of ILLEGAL Mexican immigrants)

    “When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending the best. They’re not sending you, they’re sending people that have lots of problems and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bring crime. They’re rapists… And some, I assume, are good people.”

    I am sure that the women of Cologne could sympathise.

    Does he believe that the Mexican government *sends* immigrants, that there's some prices where the government says "ok, you Pedro, you're off to the US, and you, Ricardo, you stay here."?
    Mexico is a lovely country. I once went on a long road trip down the Pacific coast, starting in Tuscon, crossing the border at Nogales. The Sonora desert is beautiful, and the train journey up the Copper Canyon a real treat. At the top of the Canyon we hired some horses and rode for hours through a landscape the equal of the Grand Canyon, yet no more than a dozen of so tourists.

    The problems of crime in the border areas is much worse now, but 20 years ago it was quite safe. This problem is not of Mexican making so much as US. The drug trade is driven by US demand, and the traffic of drugs going North and guns coming South is what has made the border areas so dreadful at present.

    I got as far south as Puerto Vallarta, and would love to get further South.
    It's a stunning country which is ruined by the fact that Mexicans live there.

    Much like Spain being ruined by the Spanish really.
  • If she succeeds in keeping us in the EU against the wishes of the people, a few dumb tweeters are going to be the last of the country's worries.

    And if she succeeds in changing the will of the people I presume you'll be in favour of abiding by it?
    How's that going to happen?

    But yes, if the British people had voted to stay in I would have accepted it and advocated taking it to its logical conclusion.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,787

    JohnLoony said:

    Write-in votes in Vermont (including 1 each for Ronald Reagan and Dolly Parton):

    https://vtelectionresults.sec.state.vt.us/Index.html#/federal

    Why are several of the names listed more than once?

    The write in votes for Donald Trump show a certain lack of understanding of how the ballot works!
    Surely they should be allocated to Trump? I assume if a recount were needed they would be?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited November 2016
    Well, that's a nice surprise - just looked at my Paddy Power account and they had settled 'Gender of winner: female' early as a winner! Real gents!
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    GeoffM said:

    rcs1000 said:

    weejonnie said:

    "But he’s also tarred the majority of Mexican immigrants as rapists and of muslims (and only muslims) as potential terrorists."

    I know - those radical pentecostal terrorists are absolutely ripping Europe apart.

    He said (of ILLEGAL Mexican immigrants)

    “When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending the best. They’re not sending you, they’re sending people that have lots of problems and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bring crime. They’re rapists… And some, I assume, are good people.”

    I am sure that the women of Cologne could sympathise.

    Does he believe that the Mexican government *sends* immigrants, that there's some prices where the government says "ok, you Pedro, you're off to the US, and you, Ricardo, you stay here."?
    Clearly nobody is saying that there is a notice board.

    But that's not to say that the govt doesn't seek to encourage a social group of collective unemployable Pedros to leave the country and on the other hand give tax incentives, for example, for those working in Ricardo's factories to stay.
    That would be those unemployable Pedros who cross the border and get employment in the US would it? 11 million of them who are working in the US and keeping the economy of the Southern States running. After all the US benefits system is renowned for its generosity isn't it?

    Personally I suspect the US economy benefits massively from large numbers of single minded and hard working people coming seeking employment and a better life.
    No, it wouldn't be the same Pedros. I referenced a govt incentivising a certain troublesome sector of society to leave. You're talking about motivated people who move somewhere else and look for work. We're talking about different groups here.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited November 2016
    What a great game of rugby going on at twickers.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,574
    This anecdote is perhaps pertinent to the manner of his campaign:
    http://uk.businessinsider.com/donald-trumps-ex-wife-once-said-he-kept-a-book-of-hitlers-speeches-by-his-bed-2015-8

    I can't entirely disagree with David's article, but it remains to be seen how he will actually govern.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,771

    GeoffM said:

    rcs1000 said:

    weejonnie said:

    "But he’s also tarred the majority of Mexican immigrants as rapists and of muslims (and only muslims) as potential terrorists."

    I know - those radical pentecostal terrorists are absolutely ripping Europe apart.

    He said (of ILLEGAL Mexican immigrants)

    “When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending the best. They’re not sending you, they’re sending people that have lots of problems and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bring crime. They’re rapists… And some, I assume, are good people.”

    I am sure that the women of Cologne could sympathise.

    Does he believe that the Mexican government *sends* immigrants, that there's some prices where the government says "ok, you Pedro, you're off to the US, and you, Ricardo, you stay here."?
    Clearly nobody is saying that there is a notice board.

    But that's not to say that the govt doesn't seek to encourage a social group of collective unemployable Pedros to leave the country and on the other hand give tax incentives, for example, for those working in Ricardo's factories to stay.
    That would be those unemployable Pedros who cross the border and get employment in the US would it? 11 million of them who are working in the US and keeping the economy of the Southern States running. After all the US benefits system is renowned for its generosity isn't it?

    Personally I suspect the US economy benefits massively from large numbers of single minded and hard working people coming seeking employment and a better life.
    GeoffM lives a parallel world where the best measure of a person's worth is their nationality.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    If she succeeds in keeping us in the EU

    You mean "if the Government and their legal team are so inept they are unable to enact Brexit"

    And yet another example of the Brexiteers desperate to shed blame for their own failures.
  • Did the EU decide this particular Tesco rationed it's ' Free ' parking by minimum spend as opposed to Free 2hr slots for all like our local one ? Do Formula Milk purchasers too poor to afford a car, or who commute by Bus, Foot, Cycle or Train get a discount in lieu of Free Parking ? Should the EU insist all Tescos selling Formula Milk have car parks because many don't ? Would it have been alright if she didn't get Free Parking because the Tesco was out of stock of Formula Milk so she bought nothing ?

    I think we should be told.
  • GeoffM said:

    GeoffM said:

    rcs1000 said:

    weejonnie said:

    "But he’s also tarred the majority of Mexican immigrants as rapists and of muslims (and only muslims) as potential terrorists."

    I know - those radical pentecostal terrorists are absolutely ripping Europe apart.

    He said (of ILLEGAL Mexican immigrants)

    “When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending the best. They’re not sending you, they’re sending people that have lots of problems and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bring crime. They’re rapists… And some, I assume, are good people.”

    I am sure that the women of Cologne could sympathise.

    Does he believe that the Mexican government *sends* immigrants, that there's some prices where the government says "ok, you Pedro, you're off to the US, and you, Ricardo, you stay here."?
    Clearly nobody is saying that there is a notice board.

    But that's not to say that the govt doesn't seek to encourage a social group of collective unemployable Pedros to leave the country and on the other hand give tax incentives, for example, for those working in Ricardo's factories to stay.
    That would be those unemployable Pedros who cross the border and get employment in the US would it? 11 million of them who are working in the US and keeping the economy of the Southern States running. After all the US benefits system is renowned for its generosity isn't it?

    Personally I suspect the US economy benefits massively from large numbers of single minded and hard working people coming seeking employment and a better life.
    No, it wouldn't be the same Pedros. I referenced a govt incentivising a certain troublesome sector of society to leave. You're talking about motivated people who move somewhere else and look for work. We're talking about different groups here.
    No I am using the Trump campaign's own figures. They are the ones who said there were 11 million illegal Mexican immigrants in the US. They are also the ones who said there were 160,000 or so with criminal convictions. By my reckoning that is something like 1.5%. That leaves 98.5% who are there looking to work and make a better life. Get rid of them and the economy of the Southern States collapses.
  • GeoffM said:

    rcs1000 said:

    weejonnie said:

    "But he’s also tarred the majority of Mexican immigrants as rapists and of muslims (and only muslims) as potential terrorists."

    I know - those radical pentecostal terrorists are absolutely ripping Europe apart.

    He said (of ILLEGAL Mexican immigrants)

    “When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending the best. They’re not sending you, they’re sending people that have lots of problems and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bring crime. They’re rapists… And some, I assume, are good people.”

    I am sure that the women of Cologne could sympathise.

    Does he believe that the Mexican government *sends* immigrants, that there's some prices where the government says "ok, you Pedro, you're off to the US, and you, Ricardo, you stay here."?
    Clearly nobody is saying that there is a notice board.

    But that's not to say that the govt doesn't seek to encourage a social group of collective unemployable Pedros to leave the country and on the other hand give tax incentives, for example, for those working in Ricardo's factories to stay.
    That would be those unemployable Pedros who cross the border and get employment in the US would it? 11 million of them who are working in the US and keeping the economy of the Southern States running. After all the US benefits system is renowned for its generosity isn't it?

    Personally I suspect the US economy benefits massively from large numbers of single minded and hard working people coming seeking employment and a better life.
    The US economy might benefit but do the US people ?

    And if you were a US citizen would you really want unlimited Hispanic immigration ?

    After all there are no shortage of Hispanic countries from Mexico to Argentina and I doubt there are many Americans who would want the USA to become more like them.
  • Well, that's a nice surprise - just looked at my Paddy Power account and they had settled 'Gender of winner: female' early as a winner! Real gents!

    On the other hand, they are making a humongous fuss over my wanting to withdraw tuppence ha'penny from the account.
  • GeoffM said:

    rcs1000 said:

    weejonnie said:

    "But he’s also tarred the majority of Mexican immigrants as rapists and of muslims (and only muslims) as potential terrorists."

    I know - those radical pentecostal terrorists are absolutely ripping Europe apart.

    He said (of ILLEGAL Mexican immigrants)

    “When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending the best. They’re not sending you, they’re sending people that have lots of problems and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bring crime. They’re rapists… And some, I assume, are good people.”

    I am sure that the women of Cologne could sympathise.

    Does he believe that the Mexican government *sends* immigrants, that there's some prices where the government says "ok, you Pedro, you're off to the US, and you, Ricardo, you stay here."?
    Clearly nobody is saying that there is a notice board.

    But that's not to say that the govt doesn't seek to encourage a social group of collective unemployable Pedros to leave the country and on the other hand give tax incentives, for example, for those working in Ricardo's factories to stay.
    That would be those unemployable Pedros who cross the border and get employment in the US would it? 11 million of them who are working in the US and keeping the economy of the Southern States running. After all the US benefits system is renowned for its generosity isn't it?

    Personally I suspect the US economy benefits massively from large numbers of single minded and hard working people coming seeking employment and a better life.
    The US economy might benefit but do the US people ?

    And if you were a US citizen would you really want unlimited Hispanic immigration ?

    After all there are no shortage of Hispanic countries from Mexico to Argentina and I doubt there are many Americans who would want the USA to become more like them.
    I am not advocating unlimited migration. I am simply pointing out that Geoff's claims that it is the unemployable who are migrating north is clearly garbage. I am also pointing out that whatever you decide to do, 'sending them back' is clearly not going to help the US nor US citizens.

    The biggest issue for the average US Joe is not Mexicans coming looking for work but US companies moving that work overseas.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    GeoffM said:

    rcs1000 said:

    weejonnie said:

    "But he’s also tarred the majority of Mexican immigrants as rapists and of muslims (and only muslims) as potential terrorists."

    I know - those radical pentecostal terrorists are absolutely ripping Europe apart.

    He said (of ILLEGAL Mexican immigrants)

    “When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending the best. They’re not sending you, they’re sending people that have lots of problems and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bring crime. They’re rapists… And some, I assume, are good people.”

    I am sure that the women of Cologne could sympathise.

    Does he believe that the Mexican government *sends* immigrants, that there's some prices where the government says "ok, you Pedro, you're off to the US, and you, Ricardo, you stay here."?
    Mexico is a lovely country. I once went on a long road trip down the Pacific coast, starting in Tuscon, crossing the border at Nogales. The Sonora desert is beautiful, and the train journey up the Copper Canyon a real treat. At the top of the Canyon we hired some horses and rode for hours through a landscape the equal of the Grand Canyon, yet no more than a dozen of so tourists.

    The problems of crime in the border areas is much worse now, but 20 years ago it was quite safe. This problem is not of Mexican making so much as US. The drug trade is driven by US demand, and the traffic of drugs going North and guns coming South is what has made the border areas so dreadful at present.

    I got as far south as Puerto Vallarta, and would love to get further South.
    It's a stunning country which is ruined by the fact that Mexicans live there.

    Much like Spain being ruined by the Spanish really.
    I would disagree, Mexicans are like people anywhere else, a mixed bunch. We were in a car with US plates and drew some interest when locals found tbat we were not the usual gringos.

    I found the people mostly charming, and proud of their culture and land. I think Mexico is to a degree cursed by being the only place where the Third World has a long direct land border with the First World. The border distorts a great deal in both directions.

    Americans too are very ambivalent about their Hispanic countryfolk. Similtaneously seeing them as a cultural threat to Anglophone America, but also having a great deal of common heritage.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,765
    Charles said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Trump is vulgar and a braggart, but a fascist? Not really. He's more Huey Long than Mussolini.

    Quite a few people reckon(ed) that Huey Long was a small f fascist. I understand what you are saying, but the total absence of a Trump Machine makes them very different.
    Fascism glorifies violence, against enemies within, and enemies without. A true Fascist leader would have unleashed a wave of beatings, looting, murders, boycotts against his opponents, in the wake of an election victory - while publicly calling for restraint.
    Indeed. Faciscm also had a very specific economic structure (corporatism) which Trump doesn't seem inclined towards.

    David is muddling up a demagogue (albeit one who makes some of the same appeals that a racist would ) with a Facist.
    It's the violence, combined with the open contempt for democracy, and the determination to destroy it, that are core components of fascism. They aren't the only components of fascism, but they are necessary to it.

    If Trump had hundreds of thousands of young men killing, beating, terrorising opponents, if he had plans to arrest Democratic politicians, liberal judges, opposition journalists, to shut down trade unions, then he could reasonably be described as a fascist. Maybe he will do these things, but until he does, he's no fascist.
  • Has anyone checked up on our old friend tim.

    I wonder how he's taking this weeks events.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Scott_P said:

    twitter.com/independent/status/797455928312397824

    "Whinge-o-rama" is a fantastic description!
  • BromptonautBromptonaut Posts: 1,113
    MikeK said:

    MikeK said:



    Trump has done the following:
    1. Called some women names. Except for some women, Haven't we all.
    2. Called Muslims names. Except for some muslims, Haven't we all.
    3. Called Mexicans names. Well Mexicans are not our near neigbours, but France is, and Except for some Frenchmen, Haven't we all.
    4. Called for the end of abortion on demand. Well Except for some women, Haven't we all.
    5. Called for the end illegal and massive immigration. Except for some Liberals and Lefties, Haven't we all.
    6. Called for the re-establishment of industry in the country. Almost without exception, Haven't we all.

    1,2,3,5: no. You're doing what lots of us do - assuming that everyone is like the people you know. I wouldn't dream of talking about women or Muslims or the French in the terms that he did, and I in turn don't know anyone who does. Most generalisations are wrong...

    Incidentally, the current Reith lecturer is really interesting, agree with him or not, on Western civilisation:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/nov/09/western-civilisation-appiah-reith-lecture?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=Long+reads+base&utm_term=199378&subid=6274295&CMP=ema-1133
    A class III Halo is on the way to you, Nick. Why class III? Because I refuse to believe that you've never called a Frenchman a Frog!
    Racists always want to think everyone else is a racist too. It makes them less lonely in their woeful state of moral decrepitude.
This discussion has been closed.