It would seem that the mainstream British euro-sceptic Right is now desperate to squash the Brexit-Trump comparisons.
Donald Trump has no similar agenda. He offers emotion, but not much beyond that. He dislikes trade, and global capitalism in general. His immigration policy has amounted to a bizarre threat to ban Muslims from entering the country and build a wall between the United States and Mexico. At any other time, these policies would have disqualified him from the office — but this year Americans were not looking for solutions. Trumpism was about stopping Hillary Clinton from becoming president and sticking two fingers up to the machine. And beyond that, it is not about very much.
They're wise to do so, but that fact that many in the Leave camp have embraced Trumpism utterly must be a source of considerable embarrassment and concern.
"But he’s also tarred the majority of Mexican immigrants as rapists and of muslims (and only muslims) as potential terrorists."
I know - those radical pentecostal terrorists are absolutely ripping Europe apart.
He said (of ILLEGAL Mexican immigrants)
“When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending the best. They’re not sending you, they’re sending people that have lots of problems and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bring crime. They’re rapists… And some, I assume, are good people.”
I am sure that the women of Cologne could sympathise.
Does he believe that the Mexican government *sends* immigrants, that there's some prices where the government says "ok, you Pedro, you're off to the US, and you, Ricardo, you stay here."?
Clearly nobody is saying that there is a notice board.
But that's not to say that the govt doesn't seek to encourage a social group of collective unemployable Pedros to leave the country and on the other hand give tax incentives, for example, for those working in Ricardo's factories to stay.
That would be those unemployable Pedros who cross the border and get employment in the US would it? 11 million of them who are working in the US and keeping the economy of the Southern States running. After all the US benefits system is renowned for its generosity isn't it?
Personally I suspect the US economy benefits massively from large numbers of single minded and hard working people coming seeking employment and a better life.
The US economy might benefit but do the US people ?
And if you were a US citizen would you really want unlimited Hispanic immigration ?
After all there are no shortage of Hispanic countries from Mexico to Argentina and I doubt there are many Americans who would want the USA to become more like them.
I am not advocating unlimited migration. I am simply pointing out that Geoff's claims that it is the unemployable who are migrating north is clearly garbage. I am also pointing out that whatever you decide to do, 'sending them back' is clearly not going to help the US nor US citizens.
The biggest issue for the average US Joe is not Mexicans coming looking for work but US companies moving that work overseas.
I claimed no such thing! I didn't say anything even remotely close to that!
Edit: I think you are getting me mixed up with another comment somewhere.
She should have thought about that before she stood up against democracy, quite frankly.
I know I shouldn't rise to the bait but that's a thoroughly vile and topically fascistic thing to say. You should be ashamed of yourself. She made an application for Judicial Review. That's it. Your suggestion exercising a citizen's right to go to the Queen's Courts some how justifies death threats is as obscene as it is facile.
It would seem that the mainstream British euro-sceptic Right is now desperate to squash the Brexit-Trump comparisons.
Donald Trump has no similar agenda. He offers emotion, but not much beyond that. He dislikes trade, and global capitalism in general. His immigration policy has amounted to a bizarre threat to ban Muslims from entering the country and build a wall between the United States and Mexico. At any other time, these policies would have disqualified him from the office — but this year Americans were not looking for solutions. Trumpism was about stopping Hillary Clinton from becoming president and sticking two fingers up to the machine. And beyond that, it is not about very much.
They're wise to do so, but that fact that many in the Leave camp have embraced Trumpism utterly must be a source of considerable embarrassment and concern.
'This is where the analogies with Brexit end. Vote Leave, the campaign for Britain to leave the European Union, was led by people who were liberal, globally minded and optimistic.'
Clearly nobody is saying that there is a notice board.
But that's not to say that the govt doesn't seek to encourage a social group of collective unemployable Pedros to leave the country and on the other hand give tax incentives, for example, for those working in Ricardo's factories to stay.
That would be those unemployable Pedros who cross the border and get employment in the US would it? 11 million of them who are working in the US and keeping the economy of the Southern States running. After all the US benefits system is renowned for its generosity isn't it?
Personally I suspect the US economy benefits massively from large numbers of single minded and hard working people coming seeking employment and a better life.
The US economy might benefit but do the US people ?
And if you were a US citizen would you really want unlimited Hispanic immigration ?
After all there are no shortage of Hispanic countries from Mexico to Argentina and I doubt there are many Americans who would want the USA to become more like them.
I am not advocating unlimited migration. I am simply pointing out that Geoff's claims that it is the unemployable who are migrating north is clearly garbage. I am also pointing out that whatever you decide to do, 'sending them back' is clearly not going to help the US nor US citizens.
The biggest issue for the average US Joe is not Mexicans coming looking for work but US companies moving that work overseas.
That's fair - the US's smaller welfare state does make it less attractive for welfare immigrants than NW Europe.
But still migrant workers willing to work harder, for less pay and under fewer restrictions than the local workforce is still detrimental to American workers especially if the gains result in the '1%' becoming increasingly rich.
That though has been political feature of the USA before and was an aspect behind immigration control in the past.
Trump is vulgar and a braggart, but a fascist? Not really. He's more Huey Long than Mussolini.
Quite a few people reckon(ed) that Huey Long was a small f fascist. I understand what you are saying, but the total absence of a Trump Machine makes them very different.
Fascism glorifies violence, against enemies within, and enemies without. A true Fascist leader would have unleashed a wave of beatings, looting, murders, boycotts against his opponents, in the wake of an election victory - while publicly calling for restraint.
Indeed. Faciscm also had a very specific economic structure (corporatism) which Trump doesn't seem inclined towards.
David is muddling up a demagogue (albeit one who makes some of the same appeals that a racist would ) with a Facist.
It's the violence, combined with the open contempt for democracy, and the determination to destroy it, that are core components of fascism. They aren't the only components of fascism, but they are necessary to it.
If Trump had hundreds of thousands of young men killing, beating, terrorising opponents, if he had plans to arrest Democratic politicians, liberal judges, opposition journalists, to shut down trade unions, then he could reasonably be described as a fascist. Maybe he will do these things, but until he does, he's no fascist.
Isn't Berlusconi the closest equivalent to Trump ?
I followed the link in that tweet. There was a small picture of Mrs May - I was delighted to see she was wearing a bright red suit. Always think it a pity when people dress in party colours.
"“We probably have about 7 million votes left to count,” said David Wasserman, an editor at Cook Political Report who is tracking turnout. “A majority of them are on the coasts, in New York, California, and Washington. She should be able to win those votes, probably 2-1.” By mid-December, when the Electoral College officially casts its ballots, Wasserman estimates that Clinton could be ahead by 2 percentage points in the popular vote."
'the identification of enemy groups, within and without, as hostile to the concept of the nation, and the demonization of those groups'
are these enemy groups the same groups identified by his opponent as voting fodder to be manipulated through identity politics? is the former approach a tactically adept reaction to the latter?
If I were one of the clever globalizing libertarian Leavers who see Brexit as just the beginning of a political project I'd be terrified by Trump's victory as well. Cross contamination of populist brands are the least of it. Trump's victory is another sign the world of global free trade deals we're said be joining doesn't exist.
She should have thought about that before she stood up against democracy, quite frankly.
I know I shouldn't rise to the bait but that's a thoroughly vile and topically fascistic thing to say. You should be ashamed of yourself. She made an application for Judicial Review. That's it. Your suggestion exercising a citizen's right to go to the Queen's Courts some how justifies death threats is as obscene as it is facile.
Come off it. She's being a bad loser, trying to find any way she can to block the British people's democratic decision from being implemented.
"“We probably have about 7 million votes left to count,” said David Wasserman, an editor at Cook Political Report who is tracking turnout. “A majority of them are on the coasts, in New York, California, and Washington. She should be able to win those votes, probably 2-1.” By mid-December, when the Electoral College officially casts its ballots, Wasserman estimates that Clinton could be ahead by 2 percentage points in the popular vote."
She should have thought about that before she stood up against democracy, quite frankly.
I know I shouldn't rise to the bait but that's a thoroughly vile and topically fascistic thing to say. You should be ashamed of yourself. She made an application for Judicial Review. That's it. Your suggestion exercising a citizen's right to go to the Queen's Courts some how justifies death threats is as obscene as it is facile.
Come off it. She's being a bad loser, trying to find any way she can to block the British people's democratic decision from being implemented.
It's curious. In normal times, an attempt to equate British euro-scepticism with a movement akin to the one led by Donald Trump would have been met with howls of outrage by the euro-sceptics themselves and denounced as a Guardianista fantasy. Yet now many euro-sceptics seem positively to revel in the comparison. Why is this?
It's curious. In normal times, an attempt to equate British euro-scepticism with a movement akin to the one led by Donald Trump would have been met with howls of outrage by the euro-sceptics themselves and denounced as a Guardianista fantasy. Yet now many euro-sceptics seem positively to revel in the comparison. Why is this?
She should have thought about that before she stood up against democracy, quite frankly.
I know I shouldn't rise to the bait but that's a thoroughly vile and topically fascistic thing to say. You should be ashamed of yourself. She made an application for Judicial Review. That's it. Your suggestion exercising a citizen's right to go to the Queen's Courts some how justifies death threats is as obscene as it is facile.
Come off it. She's being a bad loser, trying to find any way she can to block the British people's democratic decision from being implemented.
Why should anyone take seriously the possibility of Cuomo, Warren or any other Democrat establishment candidate when none of them dared challenge such an obviously dreadful opponent as Hilary Clinton ?
I'd recommend betting on any long shot Democrat outsider - most will get their fortnight of fame and you'll be able to trade out for nice profits.
A fine article, David; and a brave one. There's a reason the Klan is celebrating Trump's victory and it's not to do with solidarity with the left behind of the rust belt.
Something you forgot to mention was his open mockery of the handicapped. That's also a fascist trait.
All that said, I don't think Trump is a fascist. I doubt he has the patience or the intellectual curiosity for that kind of thing. He's a billionaire who wanted to be the President and who was happy to say or do what it took to triumph. My guess is that his primary motivation was to shield himself from court action. He's more Berlusconi than Mussolini.
That seems to show how dependent the Leavers feel they now are on Trump's presidency, which is worrying in itself.
Boris is foolish to not go, especially if he feels different to the others. It is a useful opportunity to forge some contacts.
Once again Britain is in Billy No Mates territory.
Did you read the article? The proper meeting is tomorrow, and he'll be going to that. This is an anti-Trump whinge-o-rama.
All the more reason to go and put a contrary view.
The discussion on Mexican illegals brings to mind that this is not a new phenomenon, this song about deportees was written in 1948, sung here by Johnny Cash and Johnny Rodriguez:
She should have thought about that before she stood up against democracy, quite frankly.
I know I shouldn't rise to the bait but that's a thoroughly vile and topically fascistic thing to say. You should be ashamed of yourself. She made an application for Judicial Review. That's it. Your suggestion exercising a citizen's right to go to the Queen's Courts some how justifies death threats is as obscene as it is facile.
Come off it. She's being a bad loser, trying to find any way she can to block the British people's democratic decision from being implemented.
And bad losers deserve to die.
No. But what did she expect would happen?
Do you seriously think it's reasonable for a private citizen exercising a perfectly legal right to be threatened with death?
My daughter has just referred me to YouTube - Jonathan Pie - President Trump - How and why.
It should be complulsory viewing for everyone on this forum and everyone from the left including the luvvies. It captures exactly why Brexit and Trump won and apart from a bit of juicy language no one could sum up this last few months amazing events better
She should have thought about that before she stood up against democracy, quite frankly.
I know I shouldn't rise to the bait but that's a thoroughly vile and topically fascistic thing to say. You should be ashamed of yourself. She made an application for Judicial Review. That's it. Your suggestion exercising a citizen's right to go to the Queen's Courts some how justifies death threats is as obscene as it is facile.
Come off it. She's being a bad loser, trying to find any way she can to block the British people's democratic decision from being implemented.
That may or may not be true, and her recourse to the courts may or may not have been foolish. That is beside the point. She was entitled to present her case before the law.
At the end of this process, Gina Miller's case will either be rejected, in which case things will carry on as before, or she will win, in which case extra action will need to be taken by Parliament to enable Brexit to go ahead. Even if Parliament will not accept the verdict of the referendum (and it increasingly looks as if most of the Labour MPs and Peers will either vote with the Government or abstain, allowing A50 notification to proceed by comfortable majorities in both Houses) then Parliament will ultimately have to answer for its defiance to the voters. So regardless, due process will be observed.
You don't have to agree with Gina Miller's case, or even to take her professed motives at face value, to acknowledge that this is true.
She should have thought about that before she stood up against democracy, quite frankly.
I know I shouldn't rise to the bait but that's a thoroughly vile and topically fascistic thing to say. You should be ashamed of yourself. She made an application for Judicial Review. That's it. Your suggestion exercising a citizen's right to go to the Queen's Courts some how justifies death threats is as obscene as it is facile.
Come off it. She's being a bad loser, trying to find any way she can to block the British people's democratic decision from being implemented.
And bad losers deserve to die.
No. But what did she expect would happen?
Do you seriously think it's reasonable for a private citizen exercising a perfectly legal right to be threatened with death?
I think it's inevitable that a few dumb tweeters will react like that.
Why should anyone take seriously the possibility of Cuomo, Warren or any other Democrat establishment candidate when none of them dared challenge such an obviously dreadful opponent as Hilary Clinton ?
I'd recommend betting on any long shot Democrat outsider - most will get their fortnight of fame and you'll be able to trade out for nice profits.
She should have thought about that before she stood up against democracy, quite frankly.
I know I shouldn't rise to the bait but that's a thoroughly vile and topically fascistic thing to say. You should be ashamed of yourself. She made an application for Judicial Review. That's it. Your suggestion exercising a citizen's right to go to the Queen's Courts some how justifies death threats is as obscene as it is facile.
Come off it. She's being a bad loser, trying to find any way she can to block the British people's democratic decision from being implemented.
Why should anyone take seriously the possibility of Cuomo, Warren or any other Democrat establishment candidate when none of them dared challenge such an obviously dreadful opponent as Hilary Clinton ?
I'd recommend betting on any long shot Democrat outsider - most will get their fortnight of fame and you'll be able to trade out for nice profits.
I'm grateful to @luckguy1984 for pointing out Tulsi Gabbard to me. I'd never heard of her. A Hindu President would be just what the KKK needs.
Damian Counsell Twitter: Where you can gawp at the car crash aftermath of Polly Toynbee calling a fellow professional "patronising". https://t.co/jWtHtA0xgM
She should have thought about that before she stood up against democracy, quite frankly.
I know I shouldn't rise to the bait but that's a thoroughly vile and topically fascistic thing to say. You should be ashamed of yourself. She made an application for Judicial Review. That's it. Your suggestion exercising a citizen's right to go to the Queen's Courts some how justifies death threats is as obscene as it is facile.
Come off it. She's being a bad loser, trying to find any way she can to block the British people's democratic decision from being implemented.
Patrick Murray I know I just had the worst week of my professional life as a pollster, but I think Facebook is taking this a little too far. https://t.co/Cv822krXmX
A fine article, David; and a brave one. There's a reason the Klan is celebrating Trump's victory and it's not to do with solidarity with the left behind of the rust belt.
Something you forgot to mention was his open mockery of the handicapped. That's also a fascist trait.
All that said, I don't think Trump is a fascist. I doubt he has the patience or the intellectual curiosity for that kind of thing. He's a billionaire who wanted to be the President and who was happy to say or do what it took to triumph. My guess is that his primary motivation was to shield himself from court action. He's more Berlusconi than Mussolini.
I agree that the Donald is not a fascist, though he has borrowed a bit of their rhetoric.
He is more of a narccisst, and I think will happily leave all the backroom staff to do the policy stuff, while he enjoys the limelight. There may well be some moments where he goes off message, and as long as no one dies as a result, I cannot say that I am bothered. Electing such a clown will be putting a few more nails in the coffin of the long Amsrican Century.
That seems to show how dependent the Leavers feel they now are on Trump's presidency, which is worrying in itself.
Boris is foolish to not go, especially if he feels different to the others. It is a useful opportunity to forge some contacts.
Once again Britain is in Billy No Mates territory.
Not really. Just a refusal to participate in idiocy.
There's nothing to debate. Trump won.
Why on earth might Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania for instance want an urgent meeting to discuss the shock election of Putin apologist and NATO critic Donald Trump ?
If I were one of the clever globalizing libertarian Leavers who see Brexit as just the beginning of a political project I'd be terrified by Trump's victory as well. Cross contamination of populist brands are the least of it. Trump's victory is another sign the world of global free trade deals we're said be joining doesn't exist.
Piffle. So sad that this site has come to this. The EU is a closed-trading alleyway and no more.
Thread header is balleaux by- the-way. I hope Herbie-boy is OK!
"But he’s also tarred the majority of Mexican immigrants as rapists and of muslims (and only muslims) as potential terrorists."
I know - those radical pentecostal terrorists are absolutely ripping Europe apart.
He said (of ILLEGAL Mexican immigrants)
“When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending the best. They’re not sending you, they’re sending people that have lots of problems and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bring crime. They’re rapists… And some, I assume, are good people.”
I am sure that the women of Cologne could sympathise.
Does he believe that the Mexican government *sends* immigrants, that there's some prices where the government says "ok, you Pedro, you're off to the US, and you, Ricardo, you stay here."?
Mexico is a lovely country. I once went on a long road trip down the Pacific coast, starting in Tuscon, crossing the border at Nogales. The Sonora desert is beautiful, and the train journey up the Copper Canyon a real treat. At the top of the Canyon we hired some horses and rode for hours through a landscape the equal of the Grand Canyon, yet no more than a dozen of so tourists.
The problems of crime in the border areas is much worse now, but 20 years ago it was quite safe. This problem is not of Mexican making so much as US. The drug trade is driven by US demand, and the traffic of drugs going North and guns coming South is what has made the border areas so dreadful at present.
I got as far south as Puerto Vallarta, and would love to get further South.
It's a stunning country which is ruined by the fact that Mexicans live there.
Much like Spain being ruined by the Spanish really.
There's a typically good article from Sean Trende at RCP. US polls were not far out (about 2% on average) and correctly pointed to a close contest (RCP had the ECV at 272-266 Clinton). The failure lay with analysts who refused to believe that Trump could win.
She should have thought about that before she stood up against democracy, quite frankly.
I know I shouldn't rise to the bait but that's a thoroughly vile and topically fascistic thing to say. You should be ashamed of yourself. She made an application for Judicial Review. That's it. Your suggestion exercising a citizen's right to go to the Queen's Courts some how justifies death threats is as obscene as it is facile.
Come off it. She's being a bad loser, trying to find any way she can to block the British people's democratic decision from being implemented.
That may or may not be true, and her recourse to the courts may or may not have been foolish. That is beside the point. She was entitled to present her case before the law.
At the end of this process, Gina Miller's case will either be rejected, in which case things will carry on as before, or she will win, in which case extra action will need to be taken by Parliament to enable Brexit to go ahead. Even if Parliament will not accept the verdict of the referendum (and it increasingly looks as if most of the Labour MPs and Peers will either vote with the Government or abstain, allowing A50 notification to proceed by comfortable majorities in both Houses) then Parliament will ultimately have to answer for its defiance to the voters. So regardless, due process will be observed.
You don't have to agree with Gina Miller's case, or even to take her professed motives at face value, to acknowledge that this is true.
Too many words that miss the point entirely. The simple fact is that there are two options: either we leave the EU within the next 2-3 years, or the country is going to get very ugly with our democracy under threat from an emboldened Farage and his kind. Anything that allows for the latter must be resisted.
Idiots taking refuge in the phrase "the rule of law", when they mean "a few judges overthrowing democracy" must therefore be ignored. We have to leave or the country suffers. Do we really want the people to think that voting is pointless as they just get ignored? That feeling was strong enough before the referendum. If the referendum result gets overturned there will be chaos.
He's an interesting 'character'. What's odd is that he speaks with a northern British accent, yet the content of his remarks comes exclusively from the lexicon of the underground American far-Right. It's a weird juxtaposition that I found surprisingly unsettling.
That seems to show how dependent the Leavers feel they now are on Trump's presidency, which is worrying in itself.
Boris is foolish to not go, especially if he feels different to the others. It is a useful opportunity to forge some contacts.
Once again Britain is in Billy No Mates territory.
Not really. Just a refusal to participate in idiocy.
There's nothing to debate. Trump won.
Why on earth might Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania for instance want an urgent meeting to discuss the shock election of Putin apologist and NATO critic Donald Trump ?
If they raised their defence spending there wouldn't be any need for this. Trump has said he wants to renegotiate NATO, that means its time for Europe to get their house in order and pay up. $127bn per year is the figure. Europe needs to pay up or be prepared for America to take a backseat defending Europe's border.
There's a typically good article from Sean Trende at RCP. US polls were not far out (about 2% on average) and correctly pointed to a close contest (RCP had the ECV at 272-266 Clinton). The failure lay with analysts who refused to believe that Trump could win.
I thought the state polls were far worse than 2% out?
It's curious. In normal times, an attempt to equate British euro-scepticism with a movement akin to the one led by Donald Trump would have been met with howls of outrage by the euro-sceptics themselves and denounced as a Guardianista fantasy. Yet now many euro-sceptics seem positively to revel in the comparison. Why is this?
They won
Ha!
I'm a leaver and I would have voted Hillary, albeit with gritted teeth. I am worried by a Trump presidency. But I'm also fairly sure that most of the 70 million-odd Trump voters are good people who live in very different circumstances to me and who came to a different conclusion than I would have done, and I'm loath to join in the demonising of half of the American population. I'm also, like Nick P, waiting to see how it turns out before despairing utterly. Don't confuse that position with enthusiasm for President Trump!
A fine article, David; and a brave one. There's a reason the Klan is celebrating Trump's victory and it's not to do with solidarity with the left behind of the rust belt.
Something you forgot to mention was his open mockery of the handicapped. That's also a fascist trait.
All that said, I don't think Trump is a fascist. I doubt he has the patience or the intellectual curiosity for that kind of thing. He's a billionaire who wanted to be the President and who was happy to say or do what it took to triumph. My guess is that his primary motivation was to shield himself from court action. He's more Berlusconi than Mussolini.
I agree that the Donald is not a fascist, though he has borrowed a bit of their rhetoric.
He is more of a narccisst, and I think will happily leave all the backroom staff to do the policy stuff, while he enjoys the limelight. There may well be some moments where he goes off message, and as long as no one dies as a result, I cannot say that I am bothered. Electing such a clown will be putting a few more nails in the coffin of the long Amsrican Century.
I suspect the Tory right's Trump love-in will also prove to be counter-productive. A lot of good, decent Leave voters will baulk at the idea of their votes being used by the likes of Fox, Farage and Johnson to hug the Trump regime tight.
That seems to show how dependent the Leavers feel they now are on Trump's presidency, which is worrying in itself.
Boris is foolish to not go, especially if he feels different to the others. It is a useful opportunity to forge some contacts.
Once again Britain is in Billy No Mates territory.
Not really. Just a refusal to participate in idiocy.
There's nothing to debate. Trump won.
Why on earth might Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania for instance want an urgent meeting to discuss the shock election of Putin apologist and NATO critic Donald Trump ?
Trump is vulgar and a braggart, but a fascist? Not really. He's more Huey Long than Mussolini.
Quite a few people reckon(ed) that Huey Long was a small f fascist. I understand what you are saying, but the total absence of a Trump Machine makes them very different.
Fascism glorifies violence, against enemies within, and enemies without. A true Fascist leader would have unleashed a wave of beatings, looting, murders, boycotts against his opponents, in the wake of an election victory - while publicly calling for restraint.
Indeed. Faciscm also had a very specific economic structure (corporatism) which Trump doesn't seem inclined towards.
David is muddling up a demagogue (albeit one who makes some of the same appeals that a racist would ) with a Facist.
It's the violence, combined with the open contempt for democracy, and the determination to destroy it, that are core components of fascism. They aren't the only components of fascism, but they are necessary to it.
If Trump had hundreds of thousands of young men killing, beating, terrorising opponents, if he had plans to arrest Democratic politicians, liberal judges, opposition journalists, to shut down trade unions, then he could reasonably be described as a fascist. Maybe he will do these things, but until he does, he's no fascist.
Isn't Berlusconi the closest equivalent to Trump ?
That seems to show how dependent the Leavers feel they now are on Trump's presidency, which is worrying in itself.
Boris is foolish to not go, especially if he feels different to the others. It is a useful opportunity to forge some contacts.
Once again Britain is in Billy No Mates territory.
Not really. Just a refusal to participate in idiocy.
There's nothing to debate. Trump won.
Why on earth might Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania for instance want an urgent meeting to discuss the shock election of Putin apologist and NATO critic Donald Trump ?
If they raised their defence spending there wouldn't be any need for this. Trump has said he wants to renegotiate NATO, that means its time for Europe to get their house in order and pay up. $127bn per year is the figure. Europe needs to pay up or be prepared for America to take a backseat defending Europe's border.
Which makes European leaders insistence on insulting Trump even more bizarre.
It's curious. In normal times, an attempt to equate British euro-scepticism with a movement akin to the one led by Donald Trump would have been met with howls of outrage by the euro-sceptics themselves and denounced as a Guardianista fantasy. Yet now many euro-sceptics seem positively to revel in the comparison. Why is this?
They won
Ha!
I'm a leaver and I would have voted Hillary, albeit with gritted teeth. I am worried by a Trump presidency. But I'm also fairly sure that most of the 70 million-odd Trump voters are good people who live in very different circumstances to me and who came to a different conclusion than I would have done, and I'm loath to join in the demonising of half of the American population. I'm also, like Nick P, waiting to see how it turns out before despairing utterly. Don't confuse that position with enthusiasm for President Trump!
Yes, I think people are mistaking an open mind for enthusiasm. Since so many on the liberal left don't know what an open mind looks or feels like it's obviously confusing for them. I didn't want Trump but he's won and the only sensible way to approach it now is to have an open mind and hope to be surprised, but prepare for the opposite by increasing defence spending.
He's an interesting 'character'. What's odd is that he speaks with a northern British accent, yet the content of his remarks comes exclusively from the lexicon of the underground American far-Right. It's a weird juxtaposition that I found surprisingly unsettling.
Thats globalisation for you. We can all swim in the cesspit of Islamism or of the American tinfoil hatters from the comfort of our own sofas.
There's a typically good article from Sean Trende at RCP. US polls were not far out (about 2% on average) and correctly pointed to a close contest (RCP had the ECV at 272-266 Clinton). The failure lay with analysts who refused to believe that Trump could win.
I thought the state polls were far worse than 2% out?
There were some dreadful State polls, and others that were excellent, but they weren't far out overall. The average error was again about 2%.
Trump is vulgar and a braggart, but a fascist? Not really. He's more Huey Long than Mussolini.
Quite a few people reckon(ed) that Huey Long was a small f fascist. I understand what you are saying, but the total absence of a Trump Machine makes them very different.
Fascism glorifies violence, against enemies within, and enemies without. A true Fascist leader would have unleashed a wave of beatings, looting, murders, boycotts against his opponents, in the wake of an election victory - while publicly calling for restraint.
Indeed. Faciscm also had a very specific economic structure (corporatism) which Trump doesn't seem inclined towards.
David is muddling up a demagogue (albeit one who makes some of the same appeals that a racist would ) with a Facist.
It's the violence, combined with the open contempt for democracy, and the determination to destroy it, that are core components of fascism. They aren't the only components of fascism, but they are necessary to it.
If Trump had hundreds of thousands of young men killing, beating, terrorising opponents, if he had plans to arrest Democratic politicians, liberal judges, opposition journalists, to shut down trade unions, then he could reasonably be described as a fascist. Maybe he will do these things, but until he does, he's no fascist.
Isn't Berlusconi the closest equivalent to Trump ?
No. Marine Le Pen.
Even she's a step back from her fascist father, though. Again Trump campaigned as a populist demagogue, as POTUS who knows what he'll be. Let's hope the signs of watering down the pledge on Obamacare and kicking the special prosecutor for Clinton into the long grass are a sign of things to come.
So what are the chances that the EU tells the USA to have another election so that they can get the 'right' answer ?
A big difference between Trump's victory and the Leave win is that Trump did not get most votes.
Pardon - he got 308 votes - a clear majority. He also won the number of States (30 / 51). That seems to be a pretty convincing mandate according to the rules of the UNITED STATES.
She should have thought about that before she stood up against democracy, quite frankly.
I know I shouldn't rise to the bait but that's a thoroughly vile and topically fascistic thing to say. You should be ashamed of yourself. She made an application for Judicial Review. That's it. Your suggestion exercising a citizen's right to go to the Queen's Courts some how justifies death threats is as obscene as it is facile.
Come off it. She's being a bad loser, trying to find any way she can to block the British people's democratic decision from being implemented.
And bad losers deserve to die.
No. But what did she expect would happen?
Do you seriously think it's reasonable for a private citizen exercising a perfectly legal right to be threatened with death?
I think it's inevitable that a few dumb tweeters will react like that.
Thank goodness there's no evidence of people actually getting murdered in connection with the Brexit issue.
Even she's a step back from her fascist father, though. Again Trump campaigned as a populist demagogue, as POTUS who knows what he'll be. Let's hope the signs of watering down the pledge on Obamacare and kicking the special prosecutor for Clinton into the long grass are a sign of things to come.
She's on Marr tomorrow. I guess it makes a change from Farage.
Idiots taking refuge in the phrase "the rule of law", when they mean "a few judges overthrowing democracy" must therefore be ignored.
"The rule of law must be ignored"
A Brexiteer speaks...
In quotation marks? Are you so thick that you don't know what they are used for? All that copying and pasting has eroded your braincells and now your down to just one left it seems.
Trump is vulgar and a braggart, but a fascist? Not really. He's more Huey Long than Mussolini.
Quite a few people reckon(ed) that Huey Long was a small f fascist. I understand what you are saying, but the total absence of a Trump Machine makes them very different.
Fascism glorifies violence, against enemies within, and enemies without. A true Fascist leader would have unleashed a wave of beatings, looting, murders, boycotts against his opponents, in the wake of an election victory - while publicly calling for restraint.
Indeed. Faciscm also had a very specific economic structure (corporatism) which Trump doesn't seem inclined towards.
David is muddling up a demagogue (albeit one who makes some of the same appeals that a racist would ) with a Facist.
It's the violence, combined with the open contempt for democracy, and the determination to destroy it, that are core components of fascism. They aren't the only components of fascism, but they are necessary to it.
If Trump had hundreds of thousands of young men killing, beating, terrorising opponents, if he had plans to arrest Democratic politicians, liberal judges, opposition journalists, to shut down trade unions, then he could reasonably be described as a fascist. Maybe he will do these things, but until he does, he's no fascist.
Isn't Berlusconi the closest equivalent to Trump ?
No. Marine Le Pen.
No it is Berlusconi. Le Pen is a career politician, even a dynastic one. Berlusconi is a rich man of dubious morals who used his business empire for his campaign.
So what are the chances that the EU tells the USA to have another election so that they can get the 'right' answer ?
A big difference between Trump's victory and the Leave win is that Trump did not get most votes.
Certainly but also irrelevant.
If US Presidential elections were won by total national votes then the whole campaigning patterns would be different. Not to forget that Trump was a dreadful candidate as well - the equivalent of Boris or Farage would have been well ahead in the popular vote.
What this year has shown is that the establishment doesn't like to go outside its comfort zone or even think of what's happening outside its comfort zone.
For that matter EdM was another who never wanted to think beyond the boundaries of Dartmouth Park and had an 'absentee landlord' mentality to his own parliamentary constituency.
She should have thought about that before she stood up against democracy, quite frankly.
I know I shouldn't rise to the bait but that's a thoroughly vile and topically fascistic thing to say. You should be ashamed of yourself. She made an application for Judicial Review. That's it. Your suggestion exercising a citizen's right to go to the Queen's Courts some how justifies death threats is as obscene as it is facile.
Come off it. She's being a bad loser, trying to find any way she can to block the British people's democratic decision from being implemented.
And bad losers deserve to die.
:tumbleweed: exposing his inner tyson psycho self. Scmuckie will need more couches and interns to fix these eejits.
Trump is vulgar and a braggart, but a fascist? Not really. He's more Huey Long than Mussolini.
Quite a few people reckon(ed) that Huey Long was a small f fascist. I understand what you are saying, but the total absence of a Trump Machine makes them very different.
Fascism glorifies violence, against enemies within, and enemies without. A true Fascist leader would have unleashed a wave of beatings, looting, murders, boycotts against his opponents, in the wake of an election victory - while publicly calling for restraint.
Indeed. Faciscm also had a very specific economic structure (corporatism) which Trump doesn't seem inclined towards.
David is muddling up a demagogue (albeit one who makes some of the same appeals that a racist would ) with a Facist.
It's the violence, combined with the open contempt for democracy, and the determination to destroy it, that are core components of fascism. They aren't the only components of fascism, but they are necessary to it.
If Trump had hundreds of thousands of young men killing, beating, terrorising opponents, if he had plans to arrest Democratic politicians, liberal judges, opposition journalists, to shut down trade unions, then he could reasonably be described as a fascist. Maybe he will do these things, but until he does, he's no fascist.
Isn't Berlusconi the closest equivalent to Trump ?
No. Marine Le Pen.
No Bsrlisconi. Le Pen is a career politician, even a dynastic one. Berlisconi is a rich man of dubious morals who used his business empire for his campaign.
And sought to use his office to shield him from the courts.
If I could be bothered, I could twist your words out of all recognition too. As it is, I can only think that my comment about "idiots taking refuge in the phrase "the rule of law"" struck home.
Bottom line is, you hate democracy. We get that. But why do you want to see an emboldened Farage? Must the British people be punished for voting the wrong way?
That seems to show how dependent the Leavers feel they now are on Trump's presidency, which is worrying in itself.
Boris is foolish to not go, especially if he feels different to the others. It is a useful opportunity to forge some contacts.
Once again Britain is in Billy No Mates territory.
Not really. Just a refusal to participate in idiocy.
There's nothing to debate. Trump won.
Why on earth might Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania for instance want an urgent meeting to discuss the shock election of Putin apologist and NATO critic Donald Trump ?
If they raised their defence spending there wouldn't be any need for this. Trump has said he wants to renegotiate NATO, that means its time for Europe to get their house in order and pay up. $127bn per year is the figure. Europe needs to pay up or be prepared for America to take a backseat defending Europe's border.
In the east, Bulgaria and Estonia are both flirting with pro-Kremlin governments while Lithuania has elected one opposing free movement (anti-emigration in it's case).
In the south, the Italians have a referendum that Renzi is about to lose, and yet another instalment of the Greek drama is about to ensue.
To the west, the British are walking out and the Americans have come out in sympathy from across the Atlantic.
In the North, the Scandis are adamant they aren't picking up the British contribution.
Is calling for a temporary ban on Muslims entering the USA, or building a wall to stop illegal immigration, any more extreme or 'fascist' than welcoming unlimited Third World immigration, appeasing religious and ethnic minorities to the point of destruction, or accusing people of being 'racists' for even questioning the Left's world view? Jeremy Corbyn and his ilk are every bit the extremists Donald Trump and his ilk are, but at least Trump admits what he is, publically and overtly, and it seems a great many people agreed with him.
There's a typically good article from Sean Trende at RCP. US polls were not far out (about 2% on average) and correctly pointed to a close contest (RCP had the ECV at 272-266 Clinton). The failure lay with analysts who refused to believe that Trump could win.
I thought the state polls were far worse than 2% out?
There were some dreadful State polls, and others that were excellent, but they weren't far out overall. The average error was again about 2%.
Interesting, the error seems to depend on who won the states. For Trump states, they were out by a much higher margin (7.4%)
He's an interesting 'character'. What's odd is that he speaks with a northern British accent, yet the content of his remarks comes exclusively from the lexicon of the underground American far-Right. It's a weird juxtaposition that I found surprisingly unsettling.
Thats globalisation for you. We can all swim in the cesspit of Islamism or of the American tinfoil hatters from the comfort of our own sofas.
Actually, I knew he reminded me of something but couldn't put my finger on it. Now I've got it: those bomb-vested British Muslims fixated on the camera as they make their final broadcast before exploding themselves - the just-kept-in-check fury and the fizzing behind the eyes. Uncomfortable viewing.
"The rule of law is the legal principle that law should govern a nation, as opposed to being governed by arbitrary decisions of individual government officials"
Implementing the result of the referendum, which was held as the result of a law passed by Parliament, is not arbitrary and therefore not contrary to the rule of law.
So what are the chances that the EU tells the USA to have another election so that they can get the 'right' answer ?
A big difference between Trump's victory and the Leave win is that Trump did not get most votes.
Certainly but also irrelevant.
If US Presidential elections were won by total national votes then the whole campaigning patterns would be different. Not to forget that Trump was a dreadful candidate as well - the equivalent of Boris or Farage would have been well ahead in the popular vote.
What this year has shown is that the establishment doesn't like to go outside its comfort zone or even think of what's happening outside its comfort zone.
For that matter EdM was another who never wanted to think beyond the boundaries of Dartmouth Park and had an 'absentee landlord' mentality to his own parliamentary constituency.
Despite significant voter suppression in some states, a million more Americans voted for the liberal left establishment candidate than the billionaire right wing populist. Ed did did not get most votes, neither did Remain. Americans were voting for who they wanted to be their President. The rules - which they seem to accept, by and large - meant that they did not get their choice.
She should have thought about that before she stood up against democracy, quite frankly.
I know I shouldn't rise to the bait but that's a thoroughly vile and topically fascistic thing to say. You should be ashamed of yourself. She made an application for Judicial Review. That's it. Your suggestion exercising a citizen's right to go to the Queen's Courts some how justifies death threats is as obscene as it is facile.
Wonder how long Donald Trump would last now if he went for a stroll on his own in New York. Been rather a lot of death threats against him on Twitter (including by Journalists).
There's a typically good article from Sean Trende at RCP. US polls were not far out (about 2% on average) and correctly pointed to a close contest (RCP had the ECV at 272-266 Clinton). The failure lay with analysts who refused to believe that Trump could win.
It's curious. In normal times, an attempt to equate British euro-scepticism with a movement akin to the one led by Donald Trump would have been met with howls of outrage by the euro-sceptics themselves and denounced as a Guardianista fantasy. Yet now many euro-sceptics seem positively to revel in the comparison. Why is this?
They won
Ha!
I'm a leaver and I would have voted Hillary, albeit with gritted teeth. I am worried by a Trump presidency. But I'm also fairly sure that most of the 70 million-odd Trump voters are good people who live in very different circumstances to me and who came to a different conclusion than I would have done, and I'm loath to join in the demonising of half of the American population. I'm also, like Nick P, waiting to see how it turns out before despairing utterly. Don't confuse that position with enthusiasm for President Trump!
Yes, I think people are mistaking an open mind for enthusiasm. Since so many on the liberal left don't know what an open mind looks or feels like it's obviously confusing for them. I didn't want Trump but he's won and the only sensible way to approach it now is to have an open mind and hope to be surprised, but prepare for the opposite by increasing defence spending.
Ha, ha. The wicked liberal left again. Lazy, lazy, lazy. It seems many on the intolerant right prefer to misrepresent arguments than engage with them. As for defence spending: if Russia invades Estonia and the US stands by there will be nothing the rest of Europe could do, whatever was spent.
So what are the chances that the EU tells the USA to have another election so that they can get the 'right' answer ?
A big difference between Trump's victory and the Leave win is that Trump did not get most votes.
"The Democrats cannot complain either about the inequity of the electoral college and say Clinton won the popular vote. They accepted the system and framed their entire campaign on winning on those terms. Yet in the places she needed to inspire and motivate more voters than Trump she failed. That goes for Florida, North Carolina, Michigan, Ohio and Wisconsin. Trump crushed her and the smug liberals who operated on the basis that his triumph there was unthinkable."
The Electoral College is designed to ensure that smaller states are not ignored, and with good reason. If the campaign were fought entirely on the national vote then the candidates would probably spend virtually all of their time pandering to the concerns of voters in a few large conurbations (link: http://www.businessinsider.com/half-of-the-united-states-lives-in-these-counties-2013-9?IR=T ) If you add up the numbers of voters in the most populous counties in the US, then by the time you get through the first 146 in the list you've already accounted for half of the entire population. There are over 3,000 counties in all.
Without a system like the Electoral College, the risk is that the entire election could end up revolving around the dozen or so largest cities, which would be even more narrow and exclusive than a list of maybe fifteen or so swing states.
She should have thought about that before she stood up against democracy, quite frankly.
I know I shouldn't rise to the bait but that's a thoroughly vile and topically fascistic thing to say. You should be ashamed of yourself. She made an application for Judicial Review. That's it. Your suggestion exercising a citizen's right to go to the Queen's Courts some how justifies death threats is as obscene as it is facile.
Wonder how long Donald Trump would last now if he went for a stroll on his own in New York. Been rather a lot of death threats against him on Twitter (including by Journalists).
Some have stupidly talked about Trump gaining weight and being fat - it's his Kevlar vest under his shirt FFS.
Comments
Donald Trump has no similar agenda. He offers emotion, but not much beyond that. He dislikes trade, and global capitalism in general. His immigration policy has amounted to a bizarre threat to ban Muslims from entering the country and build a wall between the United States and Mexico. At any other time, these policies would have disqualified him from the office — but this year Americans were not looking for solutions. Trumpism was about stopping Hillary Clinton from becoming president and sticking two fingers up to the machine. And beyond that, it is not about very much.
http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/11/why-trumps-victory-isnt-like-brexit/
They're wise to do so, but that fact that many in the Leave camp have embraced Trumpism utterly must be a source of considerable embarrassment and concern.
Edit: I think you are getting me mixed up with another comment somewhere.
Titter.
But still migrant workers willing to work harder, for less pay and under fewer restrictions than the local workforce is still detrimental to American workers especially if the gains result in the '1%' becoming increasingly rich.
That though has been political feature of the USA before and was an aspect behind immigration control in the past.
Once again Britain is in Billy No Mates territory.
We just pretended otherwise.
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/11/clintons-popular-vote-lead-will-grow-and-grow/507455/
are these enemy groups the same groups identified by his opponent as voting fodder to be manipulated through identity politics? is the former approach a tactically adept reaction to the latter?
https://youtu.be/Zlt_fXJC8K0
Rather reminiscent to the incompetent Remain campaign.
Yet we were assured that both Clinton and Remain campaigns were in the charge of 'experts'.
Don't you just hate that?
Why should anyone take seriously the possibility of Cuomo, Warren or any other Democrat establishment candidate when none of them dared challenge such an obviously dreadful opponent as Hilary Clinton ?
I'd recommend betting on any long shot Democrat outsider - most will get their fortnight of fame and you'll be able to trade out for nice profits.
Something you forgot to mention was his open mockery of the handicapped. That's also a fascist trait.
All that said, I don't think Trump is a fascist. I doubt he has the patience or the intellectual curiosity for that kind of thing. He's a billionaire who wanted to be the President and who was happy to say or do what it took to triumph. My guess is that his primary motivation was to shield himself from court action. He's more Berlusconi than Mussolini.
The discussion on Mexican illegals brings to mind that this is not a new phenomenon, this song about deportees was written in 1948, sung here by Johnny Cash and Johnny Rodriguez:
https://youtu.be/d87jEZ1Agpo
It should be complulsory viewing for everyone on this forum and everyone from the left including the luvvies. It captures exactly why Brexit and Trump won and apart from a bit of juicy language no one could sum up this last few months amazing events better
At the end of this process, Gina Miller's case will either be rejected, in which case things will carry on as before, or she will win, in which case extra action will need to be taken by Parliament to enable Brexit to go ahead. Even if Parliament will not accept the verdict of the referendum (and it increasingly looks as if most of the Labour MPs and Peers will either vote with the Government or abstain, allowing A50 notification to proceed by comfortable majorities in both Houses) then Parliament will ultimately have to answer for its defiance to the voters. So regardless, due process will be observed.
You don't have to agree with Gina Miller's case, or even to take her professed motives at face value, to acknowledge that this is true.
Twitter: Where you can gawp at the car crash aftermath of Polly Toynbee calling a fellow professional "patronising". https://t.co/jWtHtA0xgM
I know I just had the worst week of my professional life as a pollster, but I think Facebook is taking this a little too far. https://t.co/Cv822krXmX
He is more of a narccisst, and I think will happily leave all the backroom staff to do the policy stuff, while he enjoys the limelight. There may well be some moments where he goes off message, and as long as no one dies as a result, I cannot say that I am bothered. Electing such a clown will be putting a few more nails in the coffin of the long Amsrican Century.
Thread header is balleaux by- the-way. I hope Herbie-boy is OK!
Idiots taking refuge in the phrase "the rule of law", when they mean "a few judges overthrowing democracy" must therefore be ignored. We have to leave or the country suffers. Do we really want the people to think that voting is pointless as they just get ignored? That feeling was strong enough before the referendum. If the referendum result gets overturned there will be chaos.
"But that's not to say that the govt doesn't seek to encourage a social group of collective unemployable Pedros to leave the country"
I'm a leaver and I would have voted Hillary, albeit with gritted teeth. I am worried by a Trump presidency. But I'm also fairly sure that most of the 70 million-odd Trump voters are good people who live in very different circumstances to me and who came to a different conclusion than I would have done, and I'm loath to join in the demonising of half of the American population. I'm also, like Nick P, waiting to see how it turns out before despairing utterly. Don't confuse that position with enthusiasm for President Trump!
A Brexiteer speaks...
Fuck off, Scott.
Not that I agree with that, but you are misrepresenting what ThreeQuidder actually said.
If US Presidential elections were won by total national votes then the whole campaigning patterns would be different. Not to forget that Trump was a dreadful candidate as well - the equivalent of Boris or Farage would have been well ahead in the popular vote.
What this year has shown is that the establishment doesn't like to go outside its comfort zone or even think of what's happening outside its comfort zone.
For that matter EdM was another who never wanted to think beyond the boundaries of Dartmouth Park and had an 'absentee landlord' mentality to his own parliamentary constituency.
Bottom line is, you hate democracy. We get that. But why do you want to see an emboldened Farage? Must the British people be punished for voting the wrong way?
In the south, the Italians have a referendum that Renzi is about to lose, and yet another instalment of the Greek drama is about to ensue.
To the west, the British are walking out and the Americans have come out in sympathy from across the Atlantic.
In the North, the Scandis are adamant they aren't picking up the British contribution.
The EU has reached Stalingrad.
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-polls-missed-trump-we-asked-pollsters-why/
It's also misleading to put it in quotation marks, since it wasn't actually a quote.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXgUk5gL804
Implementing the result of the referendum, which was held as the result of a law passed by Parliament, is not arbitrary and therefore not contrary to the rule of law.
Trump means Trump.
We'll find out what that means in January.
But that's not rule of law, it's rule by lawyers.
It means it's going to be huuuuggeeeeee
http://reaction.life/clinton-smug-liberals-lost-culture-war/
The Electoral College is designed to ensure that smaller states are not ignored, and with good reason. If the campaign were fought entirely on the national vote then the candidates would probably spend virtually all of their time pandering to the concerns of voters in a few large conurbations (link: http://www.businessinsider.com/half-of-the-united-states-lives-in-these-counties-2013-9?IR=T ) If you add up the numbers of voters in the most populous counties in the US, then by the time you get through the first 146 in the list you've already accounted for half of the entire population. There are over 3,000 counties in all.
Without a system like the Electoral College, the risk is that the entire election could end up revolving around the dozen or so largest cities, which would be even more narrow and exclusive than a list of maybe fifteen or so swing states.