politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The single market versus immigration: what do voters really
politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The single market versus immigration: what do voters really want from Brexit?
As Westminster returns from holiday and the Labour leadership contest draws to a close attention is turning to Theresa May’s debut on the world stage and what ‘Brexit means Brexit’ will actually mean in practice. This week, Lord Ashcroft has produced some polling (conducted in August) that attempts to find out what voters think Brexit should mean.
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Gold medal?0
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Glorious second!0
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It's not very complicated, voters want some immigration controls above access to the single market, though how much control over immigration is debatable.
The debate about Brexit is still revolving around immigration and not free trade.0 -
Really surprised that SNP supporters put more weight on controlling immigration, especially as immigration is nothing like the problem in Scotland that it is in southern England.0
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Could be plausible if the SNP supporters view English people living in Scotland as immigrants.DavidL said:Really surprised that SNP supporters put more weight on controlling immigration, especially as immigration is nothing like the problem in Scotland that it is in southern England.
IIRC the English living in Scotland voting heavily for No in 2014.0 -
It's not surprising if you think that the SNP is comprised by 1/3rd Tory, 1/3rd Labour and 1/3rd Liberal voters.DavidL said:Really surprised that SNP supporters put more weight on controlling immigration, especially as immigration is nothing like the problem in Scotland that it is in southern England.
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Still seems odd. To be honest another 500K people in Scotland would almost certainly boost the economy a lot more than North Sea oil is ever going to again.TheScreamingEagles said:
Could be plausible if the SNP supporters view English people living in Scotland as immigrants.DavidL said:Really surprised that SNP supporters put more weight on controlling immigration, especially as immigration is nothing like the problem in Scotland that it is in southern England.
IIRC the English living in Scotland voting heavily for No in 2014.0 -
The SNP is not a monolithic entity, it has a wide collection of voters ranging from conservatives to the far left, the only thing they have in common is independence.DavidL said:
Still seems odd. To be honest another 500K people in Scotland would almost certainly boost the economy a lot more than North Sea oil is ever going to again.TheScreamingEagles said:
Could be plausible if the SNP supporters view English people living in Scotland as immigrants.DavidL said:Really surprised that SNP supporters put more weight on controlling immigration, especially as immigration is nothing like the problem in Scotland that it is in southern England.
IIRC the English living in Scotland voting heavily for No in 2014.0 -
Obviously May is going to try and control migration as she has said however she has also said she wants a free trade deal so is not trying to pursue either hard or soft Brexit but both. Most other polls have shown over 50% want some single market membership and some controlled migration, only 30% want no free movement and no single market membership at all and 20% free movement as now and full single market membership so this poll does not contradict that.
However as more warnings come of factories moving to the EU, part of the London insurance market following etc getting some single market membership will become ever more important0 -
I think the SNP are now nearly 2/3 ex Labour which is why they lost ground in traditional tory areas at the Scottish elections. They are portraying themselves as a firmly centre left party whilst Salmond was always just a bit more ambiguous about it.Speedy said:
It's not surprising if you think that the SNP is comprised by 1/3rd Tory, 1/3rd Labour and 1/3rd Liberal voters.DavidL said:Really surprised that SNP supporters put more weight on controlling immigration, especially as immigration is nothing like the problem in Scotland that it is in southern England.
Of course, according to this poll Labour supporters are more concerned about immigration too. Presumably they did not do their polling of Labour supporters in London.0 -
Not really, thanks to the devaluation of the pound it's about the same or a bit cheaper to make products in the UK than in the EU.HYUFD said:Obviously May is going to try and control migration as she has said however she has also said she wants a free trade deal so is not trying to pursue either hard or soft Brexit but both. Most other polls have shown over 50% want some single market membership and some controlled migration, only 30% want no free movement and no single market membership at all and 20% free movement as now and full single market membership so this poll does not contradict that.
However as more warnings come of factories moving to the EU, part of the London insurance market etc getting some single market membership will become ever more important0 -
Sharper divide than I would have thought. Medium hard Brexit a more likely result than Medium soft Brexit.0
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45% voted for independence.Speedy said:
The SNP is not a monolithic entity, it has a wide collection of voters ranging from conservatives to the far left, the only thing they have in common is independence.DavidL said:
Still seems odd. To be honest another 500K people in Scotland would almost certainly boost the economy a lot more than North Sea oil is ever going to again.TheScreamingEagles said:
Could be plausible if the SNP supporters view English people living in Scotland as immigrants.DavidL said:Really surprised that SNP supporters put more weight on controlling immigration, especially as immigration is nothing like the problem in Scotland that it is in southern England.
IIRC the English living in Scotland voting heavily for No in 2014.
Six months later 50% voted for the SNP.
I think the key determinant of at least a large minority of SNP voters is that they believe the SNP will try to promote Scotland's interests whereas they believe the other three (maybe four) parties are dominated by Londoners who are as distant from Scotland as the average Martian.
This view may or may not be correct but it is at least a perfectly rational decision. if current polling is to be believed maybe as many as half of SNP voters are not interested in immediate independence, a striking indictment of the failure of Westminster parties north of the border.
Incidentally I shall be absent from PB for at least the next several weeks as term begins, as my workload is going to be too heavy to spend time mucking around online. I don't know when - or indeed, given the pressures I am under, if - I will be back. So thank you now to everyone for all the debates, discussions and arguments, and I wish you all well.0 -
I don't think May will take overmuch notice of Lord Ashcroft's polls. She'll give us a political Brexit, i.e. that which is achievable.kle4 said:Sharper divide than I would have thought. Medium hard Brexit a more likely result than Medium soft Brexit.
As long as we're outside the political structures of the EU, I'll be content.0 -
I very much doubt it as we heard all those same things on the run up to the decision as to whether to join the Euro. The Lloyds one I thought particularly spectacular, given that Lloyds is a market and not a company.HYUFD said:...
However as more warnings come of factories moving to the EU, part of the London insurance market following etc getting some single market membership will become ever more important0 -
Thanks Kieran, good article on presentation of polling questions, always worth remembering when looking at 'headline' figures from someone with skin in the game.0
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London is in a world of it's own.DavidL said:
I think the SNP are now nearly 2/3 ex Labour which is why they lost ground in traditional tory areas at the Scottish elections. They are portraying themselves as a firmly centre left party whilst Salmond was always just a bit more ambiguous about it.Speedy said:
It's not surprising if you think that the SNP is comprised by 1/3rd Tory, 1/3rd Labour and 1/3rd Liberal voters.DavidL said:Really surprised that SNP supporters put more weight on controlling immigration, especially as immigration is nothing like the problem in Scotland that it is in southern England.
Of course, according to this poll Labour supporters are more concerned about immigration too. Presumably they did not do their polling of Labour supporters in London.
I did a check on both yougov polls from the 2015 and the 2016 Labour leaders race, Corbyn's performance in 2016 is reversed, he does the worst in London and Scotland and best in the North and the Midlands, exactly the opposite from 2015.
Pretty much like the CLP nominations.0 -
But that specific price is not necessary. The bigger sovereignty issues may well be, the that one is not.Theuniondivvie said:
Perhaps what continental Europeans went through in the 20th century makes them feel that an unelected Belgian (or Pole or Irishman) making decisions on weedkiller is an entirely acceptable price to pay to prevent it happening again.Paul_Bedfordshire said:
To sum it up in one sentence. We didn't go through what we went through in the 20th century so that an unelected Belgian could tell us what weed killer we could or couldnt put on the marigold beds in our garden.Cyclefree said:
Actually (and blowing my own trumpet here) I said as much here -TOPPING said:
@Gardenwalker has it. The reality will be that Brexit means we will have to face up to ourselves and that it is and has been our own decisions that have been responsible for much of the woes that eg. the poor have suffered.Cyclefree said:
OK that's fine - evidently no political system, or colour of government was going to fix it, not Lab, not Cons so the UK had to do something drastic; like cutting down your apple tree to get the ball back that was stuck in the branches.
It's a shame, though, because it really was not the EU that was responsible for the poverty in the UK, nor for taking our "sovereignty" and forcing us to do very much against our will that we might not have done anyway.
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/06/18/britains-original-sins/ and here - http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/07/12/uniting-the-country/.
I think the EU's political culture did not help and had, in some cases, a baleful influence on British politics. The top down somewhat elitist approach, the contempt for democracy, the endless reiteration of there being no alternative, of the destination being irreversible, the refusal to deal with people's concerns, the elevation of principles and currencies into sacred cows all led to the referendum result. EU politicians have their share of the blame, even if British politicians also do. Fundamentally, I think British democracy has particular roots which being in the EU were not nurtured and were in some cases harmed. Where the EU was good at helping to reinforce democracy in former Warsaw Pact countries, it harmed or was indifferent to British political culture and British democracy, from which it could have learnt much.0 -
People don't understand the single market. It's almost pointless asking them questions about it. Look at the difficulties people have distinguishing 'access' and 'membership'.Sandpit said:Thanks Kieran, good article on presentation of polling questions, always worth remembering when looking at 'headline' figures from someone with skin in the game.
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That was my point. Medium Hard Brexit seems more achievable, not merely because but backed up by these numbers, than Medium Soft Brexit.John_M said:
I don't think May will take overmuch notice of Lord Ashcroft's polls. She'll give us a political Brexit, i.e. that which is achievable.kle4 said:Sharper divide than I would have thought. Medium hard Brexit a more likely result than Medium soft Brexit.
And yes, to anyone wondering, I am aware the distinctions between those two are currently undefined.0 -
Not if you are importing components into the UKSpeedy said:
Not really, thanks to the devaluation of the pound it's about the same or a bit cheaper to make products in the UK than in the EU.HYUFD said:Obviously May is going to try and control migration as she has said however she has also said she wants a free trade deal so is not trying to pursue either hard or soft Brexit but both. Most other polls have shown over 50% want some single market membership and some controlled migration, only 30% want no free movement and no single market membership at all and 20% free movement as now and full single market membership so this poll does not contradict that.
However as more warnings come of factories moving to the EU, part of the London insurance market etc getting some single market membership will become ever more important0 -
It'll be a crying shame if/when we're no longer members of the single market, because I rate The Single European Act as the finest bit of legislation Lady Thatcher passed as Prime Minister0
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Good luck with the new term, Doc and with the new syllabus. I hope you will be able to pop in from time to time to let us know how it is going, even if it is just a quick update on a Saturday evening or Sunday morning.ydoethur said:
45% voted for independence.Speedy said:
The SNP is not a monolithic entity, it has a wide collection of voters ranging from conservatives to the far left, the only thing they have in common is independence.DavidL said:
Still seems odd. To be honest another 500K people in Scotland would almost certainly boost the economy a lot more than North Sea oil is ever going to again.TheScreamingEagles said:
Could be plausible if the SNP supporters view English people living in Scotland as immigrants.DavidL said:Really surprised that SNP supporters put more weight on controlling immigration, especially as immigration is nothing like the problem in Scotland that it is in southern England.
IIRC the English living in Scotland voting heavily for No in 2014.
Six months later 50% voted for the SNP.
I think the key determinant of at least a large minority of SNP voters is that they believe the SNP will try to promote Scotland's interests whereas they believe the other three (maybe four) parties are dominated by Londoners who are as distant from Scotland as the average Martian.
This view may or may not be correct but it is at least a perfectly rational decision. if current polling is to be believed maybe as many as half of SNP voters are not interested in immediate independence, a striking indictment of the failure of Westminster parties north of the border.
Incidentally I shall be absent from PB for at least the next several weeks as term begins, as my workload is going to be too heavy to spend time mucking around online. I don't know when - or indeed, given the pressures I am under, if - I will be back. So thank you now to everyone for all the debates, discussions and arguments, and I wish you all well.
Rest assured your erudite and sagacious contributions will be sorely missed.
Take care of yourself.
Oh, and good luck with the organ.0 -
James seems to think we're leaving the single market and the cutoms union?kle4 said:Sharper divide than I would have thought. Medium hard Brexit a more likely result than Medium soft Brexit.
What has become clear in the last week or so, is that the UK is not going to end up staying in the single market—in either the EU or the EEA. Davis’s appearance today also suggested that the UK would leave the customs union when it left the EU. However, it is also becoming apparent that the UK relationship with the EU on matters such as security means that post-Brexit, the UK and the EU will have more than just a trading relationship.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/09/clues-david-davis-means-brexit/0 -
Part of the Lloyds insurance market is made up of Japanese insurance companies now which partly explains it. The Euro was also a different kettle of fish as even outside it we were still in the same free trading area as the Eurozone and the £ was strongerHurstLlama said:
I very much doubt it as we heard all those same things on the run up to the decision as to whether to join the Euro. The Lloyds one I thought particularly spectacular, given that Lloyds is a market and not a company.HYUFD said:...
However as more warnings come of factories moving to the EU, part of the London insurance market following etc getting some single market membership will become ever more important0 -
Car component tariffs are ~3.5%. All the current tariffs are nullified by the sterling devaluation bar agricultural products (19%). They're not the point. It's all the NTBs which would make it a giant pita for automotive companies.HYUFD said:
Not if you are importing components into the UKSpeedy said:
Not really, thanks to the devaluation of the pound it's about the same or a bit cheaper to make products in the UK than in the EU.HYUFD said:Obviously May is going to try and control migration as she has said however she has also said she wants a free trade deal so is not trying to pursue either hard or soft Brexit but both. Most other polls have shown over 50% want some single market membership and some controlled migration, only 30% want no free movement and no single market membership at all and 20% free movement as now and full single market membership so this poll does not contradict that.
However as more warnings come of factories moving to the EU, part of the London insurance market etc getting some single market membership will become ever more important0 -
Hi, my name's Jim...lets get this party started.0
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Particularly for all those Leave voters in Sunderland and Derby etc who will end up on the dole! Though some Remain voters will not be exactly filled with sorrowTheScreamingEagles said:It'll be a crying shame if/when we're no longer members of the single market, because I rate The Single European Act as the finest bit of legislation Lady Thatcher passed as Prime Minister
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Apparently Brexit has led to a surge in interest in London property, the opposite of what we were led to believe beforehand:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-uk-leaves-the-eu-372602670 -
Everyone needs some downtime. Pop in when you can. You'll be missed.ydoethur said:
45% voted for independence.Speedy said:
The SNP is not a monolithic entity, it has a wide collection of voters ranging from conservatives to the far left, the only thing they have in common is independence.DavidL said:
Still seems odd. To be honest another 500K people in Scotland would almost certainly boost the economy a lot more than North Sea oil is ever going to again.TheScreamingEagles said:
Could be plausible if the SNP supporters view English people living in Scotland as immigrants.DavidL said:Really surprised that SNP supporters put more weight on controlling immigration, especially as immigration is nothing like the problem in Scotland that it is in southern England.
IIRC the English living in Scotland voting heavily for No in 2014.
Six months later 50% voted for the SNP.
I think the key determinant of at least a large minority of SNP voters is that they believe the SNP will try to promote Scotland's interests whereas they believe the other three (maybe four) parties are dominated by Londoners who are as distant from Scotland as the average Martian.
This view may or may not be correct but it is at least a perfectly rational decision. if current polling is to be believed maybe as many as half of SNP voters are not interested in immediate independence, a striking indictment of the failure of Westminster parties north of the border.
Incidentally I shall be absent from PB for at least the next several weeks as term begins, as my workload is going to be too heavy to spend time mucking around online. I don't know when - or indeed, given the pressures I am under, if - I will be back. So thank you now to everyone for all the debates, discussions and arguments, and I wish you all well.0 -
Come back soon!ydoethur said:
45% voted for independence.Speedy said:
The SNP is not a monolithic entity, it has a wide collection of voters ranging from conservatives to the far left, the only thing they have in common is independence.DavidL said:
Still seems odd. To be honest another 500K people in Scotland would almost certainly boost the economy a lot more than North Sea oil is ever going to again.TheScreamingEagles said:
Could be plausible if the SNP supporters view English people living in Scotland as immigrants.DavidL said:Really surprised that SNP supporters put more weight on controlling immigration, especially as immigration is nothing like the problem in Scotland that it is in southern England.
IIRC the English living in Scotland voting heavily for No in 2014.
Six months later 50% voted for the SNP.
I think the key determinant of at least a large minority of SNP voters is that they believe the SNP will try to promote Scotland's interests whereas they believe the other three (maybe four) parties are dominated by Londoners who are as distant from Scotland as the average Martian.
This view may or may not be correct but it is at least a perfectly rational decision. if current polling is to be believed maybe as many as half of SNP voters are not interested in immediate independence, a striking indictment of the failure of Westminster parties north of the border.
Incidentally I shall be absent from PB for at least the next several weeks as term begins, as my workload is going to be too heavy to spend time mucking around online. I don't know when - or indeed, given the pressures I am under, if - I will be back. So thank you now to everyone for all the debates, discussions and arguments, and I wish you all well.0 -
I'd like a Zanussi spin drier please...FrancisUrquhart said:Hi, my name's Jim...lets get this party started.
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Have a good term and pop in if you ever get a chance. I am off to the Canaries for a week tomorrow just as the off peak season begins as the schools go backydoethur said:
45% voted for independence.Speedy said:
The SNP is not a monolithic entity, it has a wide collection of voters ranging from conservatives to the far left, the only thing they have in common is independence.DavidL said:
Still seems odd. To be honest another 500K people in Scotland would almost certainly boost the economy a lot more than North Sea oil is ever going to again.TheScreamingEagles said:
Could be plausible if the SNP supporters view English people living in Scotland as immigrants.DavidL said:Really surprised that SNP supporters put more weight on controlling immigration, especially as immigration is nothing like the problem in Scotland that it is in southern England.
IIRC the English living in Scotland voting heavily for No in 2014.
Six months later 50% voted for the SNP.
I think the key determinant of at least a large minority of SNP voters is that they believe the SNP will try to promote Scotland's interests whereas they believe the other three (maybe four) parties are dominated by Londoners who are as distant from Scotland as the average Martian.
This view may or may not be correct but it is at least a perfectly rational decision. if current polling is to be believed maybe as many as half of SNP voters are not interested in immediate independence, a striking indictment of the failure of Westminster parties north of the border.
Incidentally I shall be absent from PB for at least the next several weeks as term begins, as my workload is going to be too heavy to spend time mucking around online. I don't know when - or indeed, given the pressures I am under, if - I will be back. So thank you now to everyone for all the debates, discussions and arguments, and I wish you all well.0 -
Am I alone in still being worried that someone as pratty as David Davis is destined to play such a major role in this?GIN1138 said:
James seems to think we're leaving the single market and the cutoms union?kle4 said:Sharper divide than I would have thought. Medium hard Brexit a more likely result than Medium soft Brexit.
What has become clear in the last week or so, is that the UK is not going to end up staying in the single market—in either the EU or the EEA. Davis’s appearance today also suggested that the UK would leave the customs union when it left the EU. However, it is also becoming apparent that the UK relationship with the EU on matters such as security means that post-Brexit, the UK and the EU will have more than just a trading relationship.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/09/clues-david-davis-means-brexit/0 -
Mainly foreigners looking for cheap deals to rent out because of the low £AndyJS said:Apparently Brexit has led to a surge in interest in London property, the opposite of what we were led to believe beforehand:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-uk-leaves-the-eu-372602670 -
Nope.DavidL said:
Am I alone in still being worried that someone as pratty as David Davis is destined to play such a major role in this?GIN1138 said:
James seems to think we're leaving the single market and the cutoms union?kle4 said:Sharper divide than I would have thought. Medium hard Brexit a more likely result than Medium soft Brexit.
What has become clear in the last week or so, is that the UK is not going to end up staying in the single market—in either the EU or the EEA. Davis’s appearance today also suggested that the UK would leave the customs union when it left the EU. However, it is also becoming apparent that the UK relationship with the EU on matters such as security means that post-Brexit, the UK and the EU will have more than just a trading relationship.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/09/clues-david-davis-means-brexit/0 -
As Davis stated this afternoon, May is leading the negotiations. His department is there to support her. I appreciate this may not allay your concernsDavidL said:
Am I alone in still being worried that someone as pratty as David Davis is destined to play such a major role in this?GIN1138 said:
James seems to think we're leaving the single market and the cutoms union?kle4 said:Sharper divide than I would have thought. Medium hard Brexit a more likely result than Medium soft Brexit.
What has become clear in the last week or so, is that the UK is not going to end up staying in the single market—in either the EU or the EEA. Davis’s appearance today also suggested that the UK would leave the customs union when it left the EU. However, it is also becoming apparent that the UK relationship with the EU on matters such as security means that post-Brexit, the UK and the EU will have more than just a trading relationship.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/09/clues-david-davis-means-brexit/
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You're not the only one.DavidL said:
Am I alone in still being worried that someone as pratty as David Davis is destined to play such a major role in this?GIN1138 said:
James seems to think we're leaving the single market and the cutoms union?kle4 said:Sharper divide than I would have thought. Medium hard Brexit a more likely result than Medium soft Brexit.
What has become clear in the last week or so, is that the UK is not going to end up staying in the single market—in either the EU or the EEA. Davis’s appearance today also suggested that the UK would leave the customs union when it left the EU. However, it is also becoming apparent that the UK relationship with the EU on matters such as security means that post-Brexit, the UK and the EU will have more than just a trading relationship.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/09/clues-david-davis-means-brexit/
Today's Brexit Questions was David Davis versus Emily Thornberry.
I weep for my country.0 -
I agree with that , and believe that much of the increase in Tory support in Scotland is to be explained by the return of former Tory voters who for the last 25 years had been voting SNP on a tactical Anti-Labour basis. It remains to be seen whether former Labour voters will do likewise when the SNP falters.DavidL said:
I think the SNP are now nearly 2/3 ex Labour which is why they lost ground in traditional tory areas at the Scottish elections. They are portraying themselves as a firmly centre left party whilst Salmond was always just a bit more ambiguous about it.Speedy said:
It's not surprising if you think that the SNP is comprised by 1/3rd Tory, 1/3rd Labour and 1/3rd Liberal voters.DavidL said:Really surprised that SNP supporters put more weight on controlling immigration, especially as immigration is nothing like the problem in Scotland that it is in southern England.
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Which would come back with a vengeance on exporters to the EU from the UK if we leave the single marketJohn_M said:
Car component tariffs are ~3.5%. All the current tariffs are nullified by the sterling devaluation bar agricultural products (19%). They're not the point. It's all the NTBs which would make it a giant pita for automotive companies.HYUFD said:
Not if you are importing components into the UKSpeedy said:
Not really, thanks to the devaluation of the pound it's about the same or a bit cheaper to make products in the UK than in the EU.HYUFD said:Obviously May is going to try and control migration as she has said however she has also said she wants a free trade deal so is not trying to pursue either hard or soft Brexit but both. Most other polls have shown over 50% want some single market membership and some controlled migration, only 30% want no free movement and no single market membership at all and 20% free movement as now and full single market membership so this poll does not contradict that.
However as more warnings come of factories moving to the EU, part of the London insurance market etc getting some single market membership will become ever more important0 -
By all accounts DD did quite well?TheScreamingEagles said:
You're not the only one.DavidL said:
Am I alone in still being worried that someone as pratty as David Davis is destined to play such a major role in this?GIN1138 said:
James seems to think we're leaving the single market and the cutoms union?kle4 said:Sharper divide than I would have thought. Medium hard Brexit a more likely result than Medium soft Brexit.
What has become clear in the last week or so, is that the UK is not going to end up staying in the single market—in either the EU or the EEA. Davis’s appearance today also suggested that the UK would leave the customs union when it left the EU. However, it is also becoming apparent that the UK relationship with the EU on matters such as security means that post-Brexit, the UK and the EU will have more than just a trading relationship.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/09/clues-david-davis-means-brexit/
Today's Brexit Questions was David Davis versus Emily Thornberry.
I weep for my country.0 -
We are going to see a Polish delicatessen on every corner..............Speedy said:It's not very complicated, voters want some immigration controls above access to the single market, though how much control over immigration is debatable.
The debate about Brexit is still revolving around immigration and not free trade.0 -
I agree about history having a marking.Theuniondivvie said:
Perhaps what continental Europeans went through in the 20th century makes them feel that an unelected Belgian (or Pole or Irishman) making decisions on weedkiller is an entirely acceptable price to pay to prevent it happening again.
For some countries it's about economic issues, in some it's social issues like history.
Eastern Europe with the exception of Greece and ex-Yugoslavia it's only about the money, they don't like europe because of memories of it's soviet counterpart, you can see the euroskeptic divide right through the former East German border, but they like the money.
Ex-yugoslavia is in to protect them from the serbs.
Greece is in to protect them from the turks.
Iberia is clearly in only for the money they get.
Germany is in it for economic dominance, as usual.
France is in it for political dominance, as usual.
Belgium for the perks of having the capital.
The Netherlands to re-export german stuff.
The baltics to protect them from the russians.
The scandinavians for a market for their high quality stuff, though they don't produce anymore.
Ireland to protect them from the english.
But no one knows why Italy is in it.0 -
The morning thread may contain, one or two, very subtle* references to Star Wars.
*Subtle by my standards anyway0 -
There appears to be a conscious effort to conflate access and membership of the single market. Just like Europe and the EU.John_M said:
People don't understand the single market. It's almost pointless asking them questions about it. Look at the difficulties people have distinguishing 'access' and 'membership'.Sandpit said:Thanks Kieran, good article on presentation of polling questions, always worth remembering when looking at 'headline' figures from someone with skin in the game.
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Oh good. Not a YUP or childish smiley face in sight. Some people here are at least growing up.
WE can all agree on one thing.....Didn't David David make a right twat of himself today? I think I am going to start Nick Palmers tick tock thing to mark the time when the country fully realises that Brexit was a horrible, terrible mistake. A Utopian wet dream for right wing fantasists for a future that ain't going to happen. The Brexit countdown to moron status is ticking.......0 -
Which Eurosceptic luminaries did you regard as being this side of the prat event horizon?DavidL said:
Am I alone in still being worried that someone as pratty as David Davis is destined to play such a major role in this?GIN1138 said:
James seems to think we're leaving the single market and the cutoms union?kle4 said:Sharper divide than I would have thought. Medium hard Brexit a more likely result than Medium soft Brexit.
What has become clear in the last week or so, is that the UK is not going to end up staying in the single market—in either the EU or the EEA. Davis’s appearance today also suggested that the UK would leave the customs union when it left the EU. However, it is also becoming apparent that the UK relationship with the EU on matters such as security means that post-Brexit, the UK and the EU will have more than just a trading relationship.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/09/clues-david-davis-means-brexit/0 -
Completely off topic. If inflation hits 3%, that's worth about £48.6bn p.a. off the national debt.0
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Dominic Raab.AlastairMeeks said:
Which Eurosceptic luminaries did you regard as being this side of the prat event horizon?DavidL said:
Am I alone in still being worried that someone as pratty as David Davis is destined to play such a major role in this?GIN1138 said:
James seems to think we're leaving the single market and the cutoms union?kle4 said:Sharper divide than I would have thought. Medium hard Brexit a more likely result than Medium soft Brexit.
What has become clear in the last week or so, is that the UK is not going to end up staying in the single market—in either the EU or the EEA. Davis’s appearance today also suggested that the UK would leave the customs union when it left the EU. However, it is also becoming apparent that the UK relationship with the EU on matters such as security means that post-Brexit, the UK and the EU will have more than just a trading relationship.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/09/clues-david-davis-means-brexit/0 -
Not the anti Union legislation? I'm a big fan of that.TheScreamingEagles said:It'll be a crying shame if/when we're no longer members of the single market, because I rate The Single European Act as the finest bit of legislation Lady Thatcher passed as Prime Minister
0 -
Christ, how many jobs does that woman have?TheScreamingEagles said:
You're not the only one.DavidL said:
Am I alone in still being worried that someone as pratty as David Davis is destined to play such a major role in this?GIN1138 said:
James seems to think we're leaving the single market and the cutoms union?kle4 said:Sharper divide than I would have thought. Medium hard Brexit a more likely result than Medium soft Brexit.
What has become clear in the last week or so, is that the UK is not going to end up staying in the single market—in either the EU or the EEA. Davis’s appearance today also suggested that the UK would leave the customs union when it left the EU. However, it is also becoming apparent that the UK relationship with the EU on matters such as security means that post-Brexit, the UK and the EU will have more than just a trading relationship.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/09/clues-david-davis-means-brexit/
Today's Brexit Questions was David Davis versus Emily Thornberry.
I weep for my country.0 -
Second on my list.Mortimer said:
Not the anti Union legislation? I'm a big fan of that.TheScreamingEagles said:It'll be a crying shame if/when we're no longer members of the single market, because I rate The Single European Act as the finest bit of legislation Lady Thatcher passed as Prime Minister
0 -
Indy Ref Turnout: 84.6%ydoethur said:
45% voted for independence.Speedy said:
The SNP is not a monolithic entity, it has a wide collection of voters ranging from conservatives to the far left, the only thing they have in common is independence.DavidL said:
Still seems odd. To be honest another 500K people in Scotland would almost certainly boost the economy a lot more than North Sea oil is ever going to again.TheScreamingEagles said:
Could be plausible if the SNP supporters view English people living in Scotland as immigrants.DavidL said:Really surprised that SNP supporters put more weight on controlling immigration, especially as immigration is nothing like the problem in Scotland that it is in southern England.
IIRC the English living in Scotland voting heavily for No in 2014.
Six months later 50% voted for the SNP.
Scottish General Election Turnout: 71.1%
Holyrood election Turnout: 55.6%
I think there might be some differential turnout going on.0 -
Also OT, slogging through Hansard, Japanese companies have 140k UK employees.0
-
For someone who is still in love with George Osborne what did you expect his emotions about David Davis to be ?GIN1138 said:
By all accounts DD did quite well?TheScreamingEagles said:
You're not the only one.DavidL said:
Am I alone in still being worried that someone as pratty as David Davis is destined to play such a major role in this?GIN1138 said:
James seems to think we're leaving the single market and the cutoms union?kle4 said:Sharper divide than I would have thought. Medium hard Brexit a more likely result than Medium soft Brexit.
What has become clear in the last week or so, is that the UK is not going to end up staying in the single market—in either the EU or the EEA. Davis’s appearance today also suggested that the UK would leave the customs union when it left the EU. However, it is also becoming apparent that the UK relationship with the EU on matters such as security means that post-Brexit, the UK and the EU will have more than just a trading relationship.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/09/clues-david-davis-means-brexit/
Today's Brexit Questions was David Davis versus Emily Thornberry.
I weep for my country.0 -
Let us face it, Mr. M, a great part of the electorate are absolutely clueless about just about everything and especially anything involving numbers (about 40% of adults have less than the numerical ability expected of 14 year olds, which means that any discussion involving percentages goes straight over their heads).John_M said:
People don't understand the single market. It's almost pointless asking them questions about it. Look at the difficulties people have distinguishing 'access' and 'membership'.Sandpit said:Thanks Kieran, good article on presentation of polling questions, always worth remembering when looking at 'headline' figures from someone with skin in the game.
Yet we are all supposed to pretend that universal suffrage is such a spiffing idea.0 -
An excellent article by Keiran Pedley. Two points in particular:
1) what if the public want the unattainable? Should the government still try for it or should they aim for more attainable goals?
2) what if the public change their minds later? The government would presumably prefer to target the public's final choice rather than their first one.0 -
I very much doubt it. Doesn't mean you are correct of course.DavidL said:
Am I alone in still being worried that someone as pratty as David Davis is destined to play such a major role in this?GIN1138 said:
James seems to think we're leaving the single market and the cutoms union?kle4 said:Sharper divide than I would have thought. Medium hard Brexit a more likely result than Medium soft Brexit.
What has become clear in the last week or so, is that the UK is not going to end up staying in the single market—in either the EU or the EEA. Davis’s appearance today also suggested that the UK would leave the customs union when it left the EU. However, it is also becoming apparent that the UK relationship with the EU on matters such as security means that post-Brexit, the UK and the EU will have more than just a trading relationship.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/09/clues-david-davis-means-brexit/0 -
Four I think.DavidL said:
Christ, how many jobs does that woman have?TheScreamingEagles said:
You're not the only one.DavidL said:
Am I alone in still being worried that someone as pratty as David Davis is destined to play such a major role in this?GIN1138 said:
James seems to think we're leaving the single market and the cutoms union?kle4 said:Sharper divide than I would have thought. Medium hard Brexit a more likely result than Medium soft Brexit.
What has become clear in the last week or so, is that the UK is not going to end up staying in the single market—in either the EU or the EEA. Davis’s appearance today also suggested that the UK would leave the customs union when it left the EU. However, it is also becoming apparent that the UK relationship with the EU on matters such as security means that post-Brexit, the UK and the EU will have more than just a trading relationship.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/09/clues-david-davis-means-brexit/
Today's Brexit Questions was David Davis versus Emily Thornberry.
I weep for my country.
Shadow Foreign Secretary, Shadow Brexit Secretary, MP for Islington South, and Shadow Minister for English Flags and White Van Man0 -
@Speedy
'It's not very complicated, voters want some immigration controls above access to the single market, though how much control over immigration is debatable.
The debate about Brexit is still revolving around immigration and not free trade.'
Spot on, good luck to any politicians that choose to ignore it.0 -
She also starred in that tv programme the other night.TheScreamingEagles said:
Four I think.DavidL said:
Christ, how many jobs does that woman have?TheScreamingEagles said:
You're not the only one.DavidL said:
Am I alone in still being worried that someone as pratty as David Davis is destined to play such a major role in this?GIN1138 said:
James seems to think we're leaving the single market and the cutoms union?kle4 said:Sharper divide than I would have thought. Medium hard Brexit a more likely result than Medium soft Brexit.
What has become clear in the last week or so, is that the UK is not going to end up staying in the single market—in either the EU or the EEA. Davis’s appearance today also suggested that the UK would leave the customs union when it left the EU. However, it is also becoming apparent that the UK relationship with the EU on matters such as security means that post-Brexit, the UK and the EU will have more than just a trading relationship.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/09/clues-david-davis-means-brexit/
Today's Brexit Questions was David Davis versus Emily Thornberry.
I weep for my country.
Shadow Foreign Secretary, Shadow Brexit Secretary, MP for Islington South, and Shadow Minister for English Flags and White Van Man0 -
If inflation hits 2% it will be a success for the government.John_M said:Completely off topic. If inflation hits 3%, that's worth about £48.6bn p.a. off the national debt.
And to think 40 years ago an increase in inflation would have been deemed a disaster.
We live in a different world.0 -
Boris and Gove. My only reservation is the really idiotic way they fell out and shot each other in the head. That was weird. I also had a lot of time for Giselle Stuart and some for Daniel Hannan but I think on balance it would be fair to say that I voted Leave despite the Leave campaign, not because of it.AlastairMeeks said:
Which Eurosceptic luminaries did you regard as being this side of the prat event horizon?DavidL said:
Am I alone in still being worried that someone as pratty as David Davis is destined to play such a major role in this?GIN1138 said:
James seems to think we're leaving the single market and the cutoms union?kle4 said:Sharper divide than I would have thought. Medium hard Brexit a more likely result than Medium soft Brexit.
What has become clear in the last week or so, is that the UK is not going to end up staying in the single market—in either the EU or the EEA. Davis’s appearance today also suggested that the UK would leave the customs union when it left the EU. However, it is also becoming apparent that the UK relationship with the EU on matters such as security means that post-Brexit, the UK and the EU will have more than just a trading relationship.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/09/clues-david-davis-means-brexit/0 -
1) Try and if they fail, say we tried, we'll have to go for the attainable optionsAlastairMeeks said:An excellent article by Keiran Pedley. Two points in particular:
1) what if the public want the unattainable? Should the government still try for it or should they aim for more attainable goals?
2) what if the public change their minds later? The government would presumably prefer to target the public's final choice rather than their first one.
0 -
I'm back!
Sorry to bang on about ECHR but @Charles and @Casino_Royale and the others you are wrong!
Read this if you can be bothered then let's talk tomorrow. Or not.
https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-and-human-rights/0 -
Its bad enough he shares my name once. Twice is cruel.tyson said:Oh good. Not a YUP or childish smiley face in sight. Some people here are at least growing up.
WE can all agree on one thing.....Didn't David David make a right twat of himself today? I think I am going to start Nick Palmers tick tock thing to mark the time when the country fully realises that Brexit was a horrible, terrible mistake. A Utopian wet dream for right wing fantasists for a future that ain't going to happen. The Brexit countdown to moron status is ticking.......0 -
Indeed Mr L. as I wrote this week, even the illustrious brains trust of PB, surely some of the UK's finest minds have, on occasion, found it difficult to cudgel some of the concepts intoHurstLlama said:
Let us face it, Mr. M, a great part of the electorate are absolutely clueless about just about everything and especially anything involving numbers (about 40% of adults have less than the numerical ability expected of 14 year olds, which means that any discussion involving percentages goes straight over their heads).John_M said:
People don't understand the single market. It's almost pointless asking them questions about it. Look at the difficulties people have distinguishing 'access' and 'membership'.Sandpit said:Thanks Kieran, good article on presentation of polling questions, always worth remembering when looking at 'headline' figures from someone with skin in the game.
Yet we are all supposed to pretend that universal suffrage is such a spiffing idea.
some semblance of rationality and order.0 -
Evening, Benito.tyson said:Oh good. Not a YUP or childish smiley face in sight. Some people here are at least growing up.
WE can all agree on one thing.....Didn't David David make a right twat of himself today? I think I am going to start Nick Palmers tick tock thing to mark the time when the country fully realises that Brexit was a horrible, terrible mistake. A Utopian wet dream for right wing fantasists for a future that ain't going to happen. The Brexit countdown to moron status is ticking.......0 -
The increase was on a turnout of 55.6%. An increase of the previous election of 5.2 percentage points.justin124 said:
I agree with that , and believe that much of the increase in Tory support in Scotland is to be explained by the return of former Tory voters who for the last 25 years had been voting SNP on a tactical Anti-Labour basis. It remains to be seen whether former Labour voters will do likewise when the SNP falters.DavidL said:
I think the SNP are now nearly 2/3 ex Labour which is why they lost ground in traditional tory areas at the Scottish elections. They are portraying themselves as a firmly centre left party whilst Salmond was always just a bit more ambiguous about it.Speedy said:
It's not surprising if you think that the SNP is comprised by 1/3rd Tory, 1/3rd Labour and 1/3rd Liberal voters.DavidL said:Really surprised that SNP supporters put more weight on controlling immigration, especially as immigration is nothing like the problem in Scotland that it is in southern England.
There is hee-haw evidence of SNP-to-Con switchers. The Conservatives had a brillaint Get Out the Vote effort - they captured almost the entirety of that 5.2% increase in the electorate.
In all these Highland constituencies that people are throwing around as 'evidence' of SNP-to-Con switching they all shared 1 similar property going into the election - Massive SNP majorities. In several cases where the Conservative made big strides in closing the percentage gap the SNP absolute vote actually went up not down.
It was differential turnout not SNP-to-Con switchers.0 -
That risks complete failure, especially with a ticking clock.TheScreamingEagles said:
1) Try and if they fail, say we tried, we'll have to go for the attainable optionsAlastairMeeks said:An excellent article by Keiran Pedley. Two points in particular:
1) what if the public want the unattainable? Should the government still try for it or should they aim for more attainable goals?
2) what if the public change their minds later? The government would presumably prefer to target the public's final choice rather than their first one.0 -
I even have this in handy graph form - the higher the turnout in the constituency the lower the SNP vote share.
https://twitter.com/twitonatrain/status/7299975383722598400 -
"about 40% of adults have less than the numerical ability expected of 14 year olds"HurstLlama said:
Let us face it, Mr. M, a great part of the electorate are absolutely clueless about just about everything and especially anything involving numbers (about 40% of adults have less than the numerical ability expected of 14 year olds, which means that any discussion involving percentages goes straight over their heads).John_M said:
People don't understand the single market. It's almost pointless asking them questions about it. Look at the difficulties people have distinguishing 'access' and 'membership'.Sandpit said:Thanks Kieran, good article on presentation of polling questions, always worth remembering when looking at 'headline' figures from someone with skin in the game.
Yet we are all supposed to pretend that universal suffrage is such a spiffing idea.
So much for the present comprehensive education system.0 -
I see the government has re-announced its 'trade deal' with Australia today. How many times is it now? I'm disappointed with Theresa. This brings back the worst memories of the Blair era: the 'pensioners' minimum income guarantee' being announced every month for six months. Theresa needs to nip this sort of thing in the bud. She needs to be seen as a grown-up politician in serious times. I didn't see DD's performance in the House, but the reaction appears to be that he bombed. But the guy has been out of front-line politics for an age, so I'm prepared to give him some slack.0
-
The more I think about it, David Cameron spectacularly screwed up in not planning for a Leave victory and thinking Brexit negotiations would take place during the French Presidential election and the German elections in 2017.AlastairMeeks said:
That risks complete failure, especially with a ticking clock.TheScreamingEagles said:
1) Try and if they fail, say we tried, we'll have to go for the attainable optionsAlastairMeeks said:An excellent article by Keiran Pedley. Two points in particular:
1) what if the public want the unattainable? Should the government still try for it or should they aim for more attainable goals?
2) what if the public change their minds later? The government would presumably prefer to target the public's final choice rather than their first one.0 -
He was not even the future once.Stark_Dawning said:I see the government has re-announced its 'trade deal' with Australia today. How many times is it now? I'm disappointed with Theresa. This brings back the worst memories of the Blair era: the 'pensioners' minimum income guarantee' being announced every month for six months. Theresa needs to nip this sort of thing in the bud. She needs to be seen as a grown-up politician in serious times. I didn't see DD's performance in the House, but the reaction appears to be that he bombed. But the guy has been out of front-line politics for an age, so I'm prepared to give him some slack.
0 -
I've just looked at my point score on the vanilla thing (I didn't realise you get points...who gives them and for what?).....my score is-2. It seems a travesty- for indicating that Brexit people are ridiculous and for taking a stand against YUP's and silly smiley faces, I deserve some points. At least 23, maybe one or two, maybe more, by my reckoning.0
-
Another demonstration that you're a deeply unpleasant individual.tyson said:Oh good. Not a YUP or childish smiley face in sight. Some people here are at least growing up.
WE can all agree on one thing.....Didn't David David make a right twat of himself today? I think I am going to start Nick Palmers tick tock thing to mark the time when the country fully realises that Brexit was a horrible, terrible mistake. A Utopian wet dream for right wing fantasists for a future that ain't going to happen. The Brexit countdown to moron status is ticking.......0 -
Not so good for the deficit, though. At least in the short term.Speedy said:
If inflation hits 2% it will be a success for the government.John_M said:Completely off topic. If inflation hits 3%, that's worth about £48.6bn p.a. off the national debt.
And to think 40 years ago an increase in inflation would have been deemed a disaster.
We live in a different world.0 -
I thought Italy joined in the hope of having some sort of stable government. After all their own politicians had been unable to get a government that lasted much more than a year and wasn't rife with corruption. Being governed from Brussels might have seemed the better option. Why they joined the Euro though is a complete mystery.Speedy said:
I agree about history having a marking.Theuniondivvie said:
Perhaps what continental Europeans went through in the 20th century makes them feel that an unelected Belgian (or Pole or Irishman) making decisions on weedkiller is an entirely acceptable price to pay to prevent it happening again.
For some countries it's about economic issues, in some it's social issues like history.
Eastern Europe with the exception of Greece and ex-Yugoslavia it's only about the money, they don't like europe because of memories of it's soviet counterpart, you can see the euroskeptic divide right through the former East German border, but they like the money.
Ex-yugoslavia is in to protect them from the serbs.
Greece is in to protect them from the turks.
Iberia is clearly in only for the money they get.
Germany is in it for economic dominance, as usual.
France is in it for political dominance, as usual.
Belgium for the perks of having the capital.
The Netherlands to re-export german stuff.
The baltics to protect them from the russians.
The scandinavians for a market for their high quality stuff, though they don't produce anymore.
Ireland to protect them from the english.
But no one knows why Italy is in it.0 -
Italy is in out of the hope that Brussels is less corrupt and more competent than Rome (edit/ which I guess means that they are in to protect them from themselves, nicely completing your list with a flourish)Speedy said:
I agree about history having a marking.Theuniondivvie said:
Perhaps what continental Europeans went through in the 20th century makes them feel that an unelected Belgian (or Pole or Irishman) making decisions on weedkiller is an entirely acceptable price to pay to prevent it happening again.
For some countries it's about economic issues, in some it's social issues like history.
Eastern Europe with the exception of Greece and ex-Yugoslavia it's only about the money, they don't like europe because of memories of it's soviet counterpart, you can see the euroskeptic divide right through the former East German border, but they like the money.
Ex-yugoslavia is in to protect them from the serbs.
Greece is in to protect them from the turks.
Iberia is clearly in only for the money they get.
Germany is in it for economic dominance, as usual.
France is in it for political dominance, as usual.
Belgium for the perks of having the capital.
The Netherlands to re-export german stuff.
The baltics to protect them from the russians.
The scandinavians for a market for their high quality stuff, though they don't produce anymore.
Ireland to protect them from the english.
But no one knows why Italy is in it.0 -
Good questions. For the first, government's regularly claim to try for aims that it turns out were unattainable, so I imagine they have to at least look like they try for the unattainable. For the second, surely that's the problem government's always have with the public, particularly when the cost of what we want turns out to be more than we are willing to pay, so they need to go for what they think best, knowing that chances are no one will be totally happy anyway in the end.AlastairMeeks said:An excellent article by Keiran Pedley. Two points in particular:
1) what if the public want the unattainable? Should the government still try for it or should they aim for more attainable goals?
2) what if the public change their minds later? The government would presumably prefer to target the public's final choice rather than their first one.0 -
Worrying about the deficit? That is so 2010-2015, grandad.IanB2 said:
Not so good for the deficit, though. At least in the short term.Speedy said:
If inflation hits 2% it will be a success for the government.John_M said:Completely off topic. If inflation hits 3%, that's worth about £48.6bn p.a. off the national debt.
And to think 40 years ago an increase in inflation would have been deemed a disaster.
We live in a different world.0 -
Well I don't think I can publish my weekly update of my average daily tracking poll because as it's Labour Day in the US, some pollsters have not published their weekend figures.
But what it appears from the incomplete results is that Trump has plateaued since August 26th.0 -
But what is complete failure Alastair? If our trade relationships with the EU on day 1 post Brexit are basically WTO rules in the absence of any agreement would that be complete failure? And if so what would the consequences be?AlastairMeeks said:
That risks complete failure, especially with a ticking clock.TheScreamingEagles said:
1) Try and if they fail, say we tried, we'll have to go for the attainable optionsAlastairMeeks said:An excellent article by Keiran Pedley. Two points in particular:
1) what if the public want the unattainable? Should the government still try for it or should they aim for more attainable goals?
2) what if the public change their minds later? The government would presumably prefer to target the public's final choice rather than their first one.
I am slowly coming around to the idea that it might be easier to negotiate with the EU once we have left rather than before. I think that they have a somewhat distorted view of their own importance to us and that it will be very difficult to negotiate with them until we show we really don't care that much. Certainly, I think our government has to go into the talks with this as a possibility that they can live with and to plan accordingly. If they don't we won't get anywhere.0 -
Since you don't need great vision and depth of understanding in order to be a candidate, or even be elected, it would be a funny world if the criteria for being allowed to make a choice were the more stringent?John_M said:
Indeed Mr L. as I wrote this week, even the illustrious brains trust of PB, surely some of the UK's finest minds have, on occasion, found it difficult to cudgel some of the concepts intoHurstLlama said:
Let us face it, Mr. M, a great part of the electorate are absolutely clueless about just about everything and especially anything involving numbers (about 40% of adults have less than the numerical ability expected of 14 year olds, which means that any discussion involving percentages goes straight over their heads).John_M said:
People don't understand the single market. It's almost pointless asking them questions about it. Look at the difficulties people have distinguishing 'access' and 'membership'.Sandpit said:Thanks Kieran, good article on presentation of polling questions, always worth remembering when looking at 'headline' figures from someone with skin in the game.
Yet we are all supposed to pretend that universal suffrage is such a spiffing idea.
some semblance of rationality and order.0 -
To think that we'll see TM's hand before the Europeans see it, when the two sides shake hands, is absurd. Think about it. As much as TM will want to push the right electoral buttons she knows that someone will put their shit into the fan that she's standing in front of straight after the handshake. Naturally the BBC will misrepresent it.TheScreamingEagles said:
1) Try and if they fail, say we tried, we'll have to go for the attainable optionsAlastairMeeks said:An excellent article by Keiran Pedley. Two points in particular:
1) what if the public want the unattainable? Should the government still try for it or should they aim for more attainable goals?
2) what if the public change their minds later? The government would presumably prefer to target the public's final choice rather than their first one.
The polls don't have a chance in hell of judging public approval or otherwise of negotiation trade offs between immigration controls and single market access, which is THE issue.0 -
Such a slur. He is not 'standing proudly' he is standing benevolently, like a kindly grandfather, with the half hearted clap and awkward smile of someone attending a children's godawful play.TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
A bit of fiscal drag would help the Chancellor quite a lot. It is more difficult to use those sort of sleights of hand when there is no inflation to talk of.IanB2 said:
Not so good for the deficit, though. At least in the short term.Speedy said:
If inflation hits 2% it will be a success for the government.John_M said:Completely off topic. If inflation hits 3%, that's worth about £48.6bn p.a. off the national debt.
And to think 40 years ago an increase in inflation would have been deemed a disaster.
We live in a different world.0 -
OK so you have gone full Japanese. I wonder how the story ends?kle4 said:
Worrying about the deficit? That is so 2010-2015, grandad.IanB2 said:
Not so good for the deficit, though. At least in the short term.Speedy said:
If inflation hits 2% it will be a success for the government.John_M said:Completely off topic. If inflation hits 3%, that's worth about £48.6bn p.a. off the national debt.
And to think 40 years ago an increase in inflation would have been deemed a disaster.
We live in a different world.0 -
Now about that report on Antisemitism....I presume Hug a Hitler Ken will be off the naughty step soon too.TheScreamingEagles said:
The slogan is kinda of ironic....Straight talking honest politics.0 -
It was a joke - I do care about the deficit, I just don't think there is any public or political will left to seriously reduce it, because it is too hard.IanB2 said:
OK so you have gone full Japanese. I wonder how the story ends?kle4 said:
Worrying about the deficit? That is so 2010-2015, grandad.IanB2 said:
Not so good for the deficit, though. At least in the short term.Speedy said:
If inflation hits 2% it will be a success for the government.John_M said:Completely off topic. If inflation hits 3%, that's worth about £48.6bn p.a. off the national debt.
And to think 40 years ago an increase in inflation would have been deemed a disaster.
We live in a different world.0 -
Kinda of an oxymoron, since Brussels these days is definitely making things worse for Italy not better.IanB2 said:
Italy is in out of the hope that Brussels is less corrupt and more competent than Rome (edit/ which I guess means that they are in to protect them from themselves, nicely completing your list with a flourish)Speedy said:
I agree about history having a marking.Theuniondivvie said:
Perhaps what continental Europeans went through in the 20th century makes them feel that an unelected Belgian (or Pole or Irishman) making decisions on weedkiller is an entirely acceptable price to pay to prevent it happening again.
For some countries it's about economic issues, in some it's social issues like history.
Eastern Europe with the exception of Greece and ex-Yugoslavia it's only about the money, they don't like europe because of memories of it's soviet counterpart, you can see the euroskeptic divide right through the former East German border, but they like the money.
Ex-yugoslavia is in to protect them from the serbs.
Greece is in to protect them from the turks.
Iberia is clearly in only for the money they get.
Germany is in it for economic dominance, as usual.
France is in it for political dominance, as usual.
Belgium for the perks of having the capital.
The Netherlands to re-export german stuff.
The baltics to protect them from the russians.
The scandinavians for a market for their high quality stuff, though they don't produce anymore.
Ireland to protect them from the english.
But no one knows why Italy is in it.0 -
Maybe you could try being a little nicer to your fellow PB'ers?tyson said:I've just looked at my point score on the vanilla thing (I didn't realise you get points...who gives them and for what?).....my score is-2. It seems a travesty- for indicating that Brexit people are ridiculous and for taking a stand against YUP's and silly smiley faces, I deserve some points. At least 23, maybe one or two, maybe more, by my reckoning.
0 -
It's actually just missing some punctuation.FrancisUrquhart said:
Now about that report on Antisemitism....I presume Hug a Hitler Ken will be off the naughty step soon too.TheScreamingEagles said:
The slogan is kinda of ironic....Straight talking honest politics.
Straight. Talking. Honest? Politics!
All true.0 -
No Daily Mail, Sun or Mirror front pages yet. Do I smell some more scandal?0
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You get points for being nice? So why I am I stuck in the paltry 20s? Have I wasted courtesy on this band of filth mongers and smut peddlers?GIN1138 said:
Maybe you could try being a little nicer to your fellow PB'ers?tyson said:I've just looked at my point score on the vanilla thing (I didn't realise you get points...who gives them and for what?).....my score is-2. It seems a travesty- for indicating that Brexit people are ridiculous and for taking a stand against YUP's and silly smiley faces, I deserve some points. At least 23, maybe one or two, maybe more, by my reckoning.
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