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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » WH2016 – updated polling and betting

SystemSystem Posts: 11,697
edited July 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » WH2016 – updated polling and betting

My WH2016 National polling table. I'll be doing key state surveys soon. pic.twitter.com/re3wHD9yA0

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  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 25,009
    edited July 2016
    first (sadly). I was hoping to be trumped..
  • Options
    DaemonBarberDaemonBarber Posts: 1,626
    good afternoon all
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    Carolus_RexCarolus_Rex Posts: 1,414
    eek said:

    first (sadly). I was hoping to be trumped..

    Donald your breath.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,291
    Possible sighting of "the men" who tried to abduct the serviceman the other week.
  • Options
    weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    Trump still seems the best bet. Probability of winning very similar to Brexit on Betfair for months.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,195
    Do the LA Times/USC really have Trump on 7%? Or should it be 47%?
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,676
    tlg86 said:

    Do the LA Times/USC really have Trump on 7%? Or should it be 47%?

    The missing 40% are Sanders write-in voters.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,610
    tlg86 said:

    Do the LA Times/USC really have Trump on 7%? Or should it be 47%?

    Maybe the question was "in an election would you vote for our queen and saviour Hillary or the racist and bankrupt failure Donald Trump?"
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    David Burge
    Man, this 25-year effort to humanize Hillary is the most expensive public works project since the Hoover Dam.
  • Options
    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    tlg86 said:

    Do the LA Times/USC really have Trump on 7%? Or should it be 47%?

    If Clinton is 40% then Trump could be 60%.
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    I can't for a moment give any credence to what the political lobby hacks or commentators say about Trump.

    They've been beyond wrong at every turn. Most come from the liberal left which doesn't help either. I suspect this election has a Brexit surprise in store.

    I could feel CNN smiling during their Hillary speech analysis. The enormous sneering at Trump is very misplaced given who he's demolished along way.
  • Options
    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,724
    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    Do the LA Times/USC really have Trump on 7%? Or should it be 47%?

    Maybe the question was "in an election would you vote for our queen and saviour Hillary or the racist and bankrupt failure Donald Trump?"
    ... and maybe it wasn't.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,479
    PlatoSaid said:

    I can't for a moment give any credence to what the political lobby hacks or commentators say about Trump.

    They've been beyond wrong at every turn. Most come from the liberal left which doesn't help either. I suspect this election has a Brexit surprise in store.

    I could feel CNN smiling during their Hillary speech analysis. The enormous sneering at Trump is very misplaced given who he's demolished along way.

    Precisely so.

    And this should be factored into anyone's betting analysis.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,479
    weejonnie said:

    Trump still seems the best bet. Probability of winning very similar to Brexit on Betfair for months.

    In which case the best prices on Trump may come in the final few hours before the polls close.
  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    PlatoSaid said:

    I can't for a moment give any credence to what the political lobby hacks or commentators say about Trump.

    They've been beyond wrong at every turn. Most come from the liberal left which doesn't help either. I suspect this election has a Brexit surprise in store.

    I could feel CNN smiling during their Hillary speech analysis. The enormous sneering at Trump is very misplaced given who he's demolished along way.

    They think he is bonkers, and they are right. the very idea of Trump as President is unimaginable
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    edited July 2016
    This is an interesting read

    http://praxis.ink/2016/07/does-political-advertising-actually-work-not-really

    "Contrary to the consultants’ claims, however, empirical research conducted by political scientists shows that such advertising campaigns are not nearly as effective as many donors have been led to believe—especially in presidential campaigns.

    This year is a unique one in political history in that it will mark the first time ever that many high-dollar GOP donors have decided to opt out of a presidential election. If they had bothered to look at the political science scholarship about campaign advertising, they’d have made this decision long ago.

    There are five reasons why:..."

    Is this why the hundreds of millions aren't hurting Trump too?
  • Options
    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,388

    tlg86 said:

    Do the LA Times/USC really have Trump on 7%? Or should it be 47%?

    If Clinton is 40% then Trump could be 60%.
    No, it's 47%. See the -7 lead.
  • Options
    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133

    PlatoSaid said:

    I can't for a moment give any credence to what the political lobby hacks or commentators say about Trump.

    They've been beyond wrong at every turn. Most come from the liberal left which doesn't help either. I suspect this election has a Brexit surprise in store.

    I could feel CNN smiling during their Hillary speech analysis. The enormous sneering at Trump is very misplaced given who he's demolished along way.

    They think he is bonkers, and they are right. the very idea of Trump as President is unimaginable
    Once upon a time, not so long ago, the very idea of a Leave vote was unimaginable.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,479

    PlatoSaid said:

    I can't for a moment give any credence to what the political lobby hacks or commentators say about Trump.

    They've been beyond wrong at every turn. Most come from the liberal left which doesn't help either. I suspect this election has a Brexit surprise in store.

    I could feel CNN smiling during their Hillary speech analysis. The enormous sneering at Trump is very misplaced given who he's demolished along way.

    Precisely so.

    And this should be factored into anyone's betting analysis.
    I should also add that the US news that will filter into the UK mainstream will *tend* to have an internationalist bias and angle, which will also favour Hillary and the Democrats. Particularly given Trumps policy.

    What I'd be looking for is a real sense of how Trump is going down in the battleground states on the ground, where his Alpha America-first message may gain more traction, and from those who don't have a particular pipe to play.
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    The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    People keep on comparing Leave to Trump but the demographics always favoured Leave. I'm not so sure we can say the same in regard to Trump.
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,151
    Scott_P said:
    People viewing Hillary Clinton's speech are likely to be a pro-Hillary-Clinton sample.
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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Scott_P said:
    One of those meaningless polls that prove nothing. BTW good afternoon.
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited July 2016

    Scott_P said:
    People viewing Hillary Clinton's speech are likely to be a pro-Hillary-Clinton sample.
    Numbers broadly similar to polling on Trump speech but better across the board (IIRC it was 67% viewed positively for Trump).

    Importantly viewing figures 15% higher for DNC than RNC.
  • Options
    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Whoever is elected president, the USA will be heading in a different direction; possibly the biggest change since December 7th 1941.
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    PlatoSaid said:

    The enormous sneering at Trump is very misplaced given who he's demolished along way.

    The completely-unelectable Ted Cruz and the deeply-unpopular-in-his-home-state Marco Rubio?

    Such a field of challengers.
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    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133

    People keep on comparing Leave to Trump but the demographics always favoured Leave. I'm not so sure we can say the same in regard to Trump.

    Is that really true? I remember plenty of people saying Remain would win because ABC1 voters were Remain and they vote more than C2DE voters.
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    weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820

    People keep on comparing Leave to Trump but the demographics always favoured Leave. I'm not so sure we can say the same in regard to Trump.

    The demographics are those who don't normally vote in POTUS elections but who now decide to do so.
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    @CharlotteAlter

    Bernie delegate told me "microaggressions" kept them from disrupting historic speech. Many in tears after "being marginalized" #DemsInPhilly

    -----
    Generation Snowflake get their first experience of US party politics.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,479

    PlatoSaid said:

    I can't for a moment give any credence to what the political lobby hacks or commentators say about Trump.

    They've been beyond wrong at every turn. Most come from the liberal left which doesn't help either. I suspect this election has a Brexit surprise in store.

    I could feel CNN smiling during their Hillary speech analysis. The enormous sneering at Trump is very misplaced given who he's demolished along way.

    They think he is bonkers, and they are right. the very idea of Trump as President is unimaginable
    So you agree with them, and you would be horrified at a Trump victory.

    That's irrelevant. What is relevant is determining through sober fact based analysis whether he's going to win or not and whether the current odds are value or not.
  • Options
    The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830

    People keep on comparing Leave to Trump but the demographics always favoured Leave. I'm not so sure we can say the same in regard to Trump.

    Is that really true? I remember plenty of people saying Remain would win because ABC1 voters were Remain and they vote more than C2DE voters.
    I don't recall that. In any case, I doubt that ABC1s outnumber C2DEs in this country. Whereas those who are 65+ are one of the biggest demographics in this country and were always going to vote Leave. Remain were relying on younger voters to turn out as well, and my demographic group are notoriously unreliable when it comes to that.
  • Options
    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,151
    Alistair said:

    Scott_P said:
    People viewing Hillary Clinton's speech are likely to be a pro-Hillary-Clinton sample.
    Numbers broadly similar to polling on Trump speech but better across the board (IIRC it was 67% viewed positively for Trump).

    Importantly viewing figures 15% higher for DNC than RNC.
    Trump speeches are different, it's like watching Formula 1 races waiting for the cars to crash.
  • Options
    The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    weejonnie said:

    People keep on comparing Leave to Trump but the demographics always favoured Leave. I'm not so sure we can say the same in regard to Trump.

    The demographics are those who don't normally vote in POTUS elections but who now decide to do so.
    So Trump relying on an unreliable group of voters then for victory....
  • Options
    oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831
    edited July 2016
    Scott_P said:
    and who cares what Debra Messing has to say about it? She hasn't registered on many radars since the end of Will and Grace. And certainly has no track record of being a reputable political commentator...
  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    PlatoSaid said:

    I can't for a moment give any credence to what the political lobby hacks or commentators say about Trump.

    They've been beyond wrong at every turn. Most come from the liberal left which doesn't help either. I suspect this election has a Brexit surprise in store.

    I could feel CNN smiling during their Hillary speech analysis. The enormous sneering at Trump is very misplaced given who he's demolished along way.

    They think he is bonkers, and they are right. the very idea of Trump as President is unimaginable
    So you agree with them, and you would be horrified at a Trump victory.

    That's irrelevant. What is relevant is determining through sober fact based analysis whether he's going to win or not and whether the current odds are value or not.
    I think that a sober analysis of Trump's manifesto means that Americans are all bonkers if Trump gets the White House and it would be very dangerous for the World too. Neither candidate is attractive, HRC is the least worst option.
  • Options
    runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536

    People keep on comparing Leave to Trump but the demographics always favoured Leave. I'm not so sure we can say the same in regard to Trump.

    Is that really true? I remember plenty of people saying Remain would win because ABC1 voters were Remain and they vote more than C2DE voters.
    'plenty of people' talked all kinds of cr*p though.
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,151

    weejonnie said:

    People keep on comparing Leave to Trump but the demographics always favoured Leave. I'm not so sure we can say the same in regard to Trump.

    The demographics are those who don't normally vote in POTUS elections but who now decide to do so.
    So Trump relying on an unreliable group of voters then for victory....
    Generally not a promising strategy but it worked pretty well for Leave.
  • Options
    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    IMHO Hinkley Point Nuclear Power Plant will now never be built: it's time has passed.

    True Britain will need huge amounts of electrical power in the near future, but Cameron's government didn't have the balls to make a decision back in 2010 and now the old time NPP's have had their day.

    You can say what you like about the French but they built their NPP's at a good price and when every expert said that building them was a terrible idea. So much for experts!
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    nunununu Posts: 6,024

    PlatoSaid said:

    I can't for a moment give any credence to what the political lobby hacks or commentators say about Trump.

    They've been beyond wrong at every turn. Most come from the liberal left which doesn't help either. I suspect this election has a Brexit surprise in store.

    I could feel CNN smiling during their Hillary speech analysis. The enormous sneering at Trump is very misplaced given who he's demolished along way.

    Precisely so.

    And this should be factored into anyone's betting analysis.
    I should also add that the US news that will filter into the UK mainstream will *tend* to have an internationalist bias and angle, which will also favour Hillary and the Democrats. Particularly given Trumps policy.

    What I'd be looking for is a real sense of how Trump is going down in the battleground states on the ground, where his Alpha America-first message may gain more traction, and from those who don't have a particular pipe to play.
    Given America's low turnouts during general elections, there must be a huge potential for non voters to turn out more than ever.


    BTW the BBC has given up reporting real business news and instead as gone full on Project talk down the economy because Brexit.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,610

    weejonnie said:

    People keep on comparing Leave to Trump but the demographics always favoured Leave. I'm not so sure we can say the same in regard to Trump.

    The demographics are those who don't normally vote in POTUS elections but who now decide to do so.
    So Trump relying on an unreliable group of voters then for victory....
    The same demographic that won it for Leave. Hence the similarity.
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    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    runnymede said:

    People keep on comparing Leave to Trump but the demographics always favoured Leave. I'm not so sure we can say the same in regard to Trump.

    Is that really true? I remember plenty of people saying Remain would win because ABC1 voters were Remain and they vote more than C2DE voters.
    'plenty of people' talked all kinds of cr*p though.
    Yeah, that was kind of my point...
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    glwglw Posts: 9,549
    MikeK said:

    One of those meaningless polls that prove nothing. BTW good afternoon.

    It proves that Debra Messing, and actors generally, should stick to acting.
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    glwglw Posts: 9,549
    Alistair said:

    Numbers broadly similar to polling on Trump speech but better across the board (IIRC it was 67% viewed positively for Trump).

    Trump probably attracts a lot more rubberneckers than Clinton. :)
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,947

    People keep on comparing Leave to Trump but the demographics always favoured Leave. I'm not so sure we can say the same in regard to Trump.

    Is that really true? I remember plenty of people saying Remain would win because ABC1 voters were Remain and they vote more than C2DE voters.
    I don't recall that. In any case, I doubt that ABC1s outnumber C2DEs in this country. Whereas those who are 65+ are one of the biggest demographics in this country and were always going to vote Leave. Remain were relying on younger voters to turn out as well, and my demographic group are notoriously unreliable when it comes to that.
    It was a battle between whether the older poor turnout would overcome the older rich turnout.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,479

    PlatoSaid said:

    I can't for a moment give any credence to what the political lobby hacks or commentators say about Trump.

    They've been beyond wrong at every turn. Most come from the liberal left which doesn't help either. I suspect this election has a Brexit surprise in store.

    I could feel CNN smiling during their Hillary speech analysis. The enormous sneering at Trump is very misplaced given who he's demolished along way.

    They think he is bonkers, and they are right. the very idea of Trump as President is unimaginable
    So you agree with them, and you would be horrified at a Trump victory.

    That's irrelevant. What is relevant is determining through sober fact based analysis whether he's going to win or not and whether the current odds are value or not.
    I think that a sober analysis of Trump's manifesto means that Americans are all bonkers if Trump gets the White House and it would be very dangerous for the World too. Neither candidate is attractive, HRC is the least worst option.
    Once again, you are repeating your opinion as a non US citizen of who you'd prefer to win and why.

    Totally irrelevant. But it does show why he's still betting value.
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    glwglw Posts: 9,549

    Trump speeches are different, it's like watching Formula 1 races waiting for the cars to crash.

    *shakes fist* Beaten to it, but yeah Trump is box office.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    edited July 2016

    People keep on comparing Leave to Trump but the demographics always favoured Leave. I'm not so sure we can say the same in regard to Trump.

    Is that really true? I remember plenty of people saying Remain would win because ABC1 voters were Remain and they vote more than C2DE voters.
    I don't recall that. In any case, I doubt that ABC1s outnumber C2DEs in this country. Whereas those who are 65+ are one of the biggest demographics in this country and were always going to vote Leave. Remain were relying on younger voters to turn out as well, and my demographic group are notoriously unreliable when it comes to that.
    You didn't read the PB threads that said so? Many times? Or the pollsters that kept down-weighting the DNVers because they couldn't believe they'd turn out? And the massive assault by Remain calling everyone who wasn't One Of Them names?

    And all the money and time spent on youngsters to turn out? The extending of the registration window by HMG in the hope to get more of them?

    I think there's selective amnesia here post-result. Hillary2016 is making many of the same mistakes.
  • Options
    glwglw Posts: 9,549
    edited July 2016
    nunu said:

    BTW the BBC has given up reporting real business news and instead as gone full on Project talk down the economy because Brexit.

    To be fair this morning the business reporter on 5 Live was pointing out that the Lloyd's news from the day before was not due to Brexit, which was how it was spun on Thursday, but due to a strategic review driven by the need to change how the bank operates now that many customers can no longer be arsed to visit a branch in person.

  • Options
    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    is there an equvilant of the sun newspaper in America who are more in tune with "provincial" america as opposed to the liberal L.A and New yourk based media? We need to see how they are covering the race.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,947
    PlatoSaid said:

    People keep on comparing Leave to Trump but the demographics always favoured Leave. I'm not so sure we can say the same in regard to Trump.

    Is that really true? I remember plenty of people saying Remain would win because ABC1 voters were Remain and they vote more than C2DE voters.
    I don't recall that. In any case, I doubt that ABC1s outnumber C2DEs in this country. Whereas those who are 65+ are one of the biggest demographics in this country and were always going to vote Leave. Remain were relying on younger voters to turn out as well, and my demographic group are notoriously unreliable when it comes to that.
    You didn't read the PB threads that said so? Many times? Or the pollsters that kept down-weighting the DNVers because they couldn't believe they'd turn out? And the massive assault by Remain calling everyone who wasn't One Of Them names?

    And all the money and time spent on youngsters to turn out? The extending of the registration window by HMG in the hope to get more of them?
    .
    That's why there was good value - TheApocalyse is right, I think, that the demographics favoured Leave, but as you say a lot of people and organisations didn't believe that.
  • Options
    saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245
    glw said:

    nunu said:

    BTW the BBC has given up reporting real business news and instead as gone full on Project talk down the economy because Brexit.

    To be fair this morning the business reporter on 5 Live was pointing out that the Lloyd's news from the day before was not due to Brexit, which was how it was spun on Thursday, but due to a strategic review driven by the need to change how the bank operates now that many customers can no longer be arsed to visit a branch in person.

    Id happily go to branch, apart from the fact that they will blow you out and recommend you call their call centre or go online.
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    rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 2,038
    MikeK said:

    IMHO Hinkley Point Nuclear Power Plant will now never be built: it's time has passed.

    True Britain will need huge amounts of electrical power in the near future, but Cameron's government didn't have the balls to make a decision back in 2010 and now the old time NPP's have had their day.

    You can say what you like about the French but they built their NPP's at a good price and when every expert said that building them was a terrible idea. So much for experts!

    Gas and wind cost less than the available nuclear technologies. Post-2030, the unwanted windpower (any more than 20 GW can overload the national grid on a sunny summer Sunday morning) will probably need to be converted into methane = storable. Search 'power to gas'; there's more development in Germany than here.

    We probably won't need 'huge amounts' of electricity. Domestic electricity consumption has been falling, due to EU legislation, and this could continue. (Germany expects its consumption to drop 25% by 2050.)

    The UK's done everything possible to block this EU legislation. Now we're probably out, ironically, the legislation will be more easily passed. If the UK stays in the Single Market the new appliances sold here will probably almost all meet the EU's efficiency standards, over which the Daily Express et al will have no say at all. (Ha ha.)
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,479
    kle4 said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    People keep on comparing Leave to Trump but the demographics always favoured Leave. I'm not so sure we can say the same in regard to Trump.

    Is that really true? I remember plenty of people saying Remain would win because ABC1 voters were Remain and they vote more than C2DE voters.
    I don't recall that. In any case, I doubt that ABC1s outnumber C2DEs in this country. Whereas those who are 65+ are one of the biggest demographics in this country and were always going to vote Leave. Remain were relying on younger voters to turn out as well, and my demographic group are notoriously unreliable when it comes to that.
    You didn't read the PB threads that said so? Many times? Or the pollsters that kept down-weighting the DNVers because they couldn't believe they'd turn out? And the massive assault by Remain calling everyone who wasn't One Of Them names?

    And all the money and time spent on youngsters to turn out? The extending of the registration window by HMG in the hope to get more of them?
    .
    That's why there was good value - TheApocalyse is right, I think, that the demographics favoured Leave, but as you say a lot of people and organisations didn't believe that.
    Well, two things happened:

    (1) The young ABs didn't turn out as hoped but the oldies did (which the more sober of us expected)
    (2) The poorer working classes did (and far fewer predicted that) and the trends in this were disguised by a general nebulous debate about ABC1s beat C2DEs
  • Options
    ThrakThrak Posts: 494
    edited July 2016
    nunu said:

    is there an equvilant of the sun newspaper in America who are more in tune with "provincial" america as opposed to the liberal L.A and New yourk based media? We need to see how they are covering the race.

    New York Post is Murdoch's equivalent publication. Does he have others in other states?

    EDIT: just googled it, no he doesn't.
  • Options
    runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    PlatoSaid said:

    People keep on comparing Leave to Trump but the demographics always favoured Leave. I'm not so sure we can say the same in regard to Trump.

    Is that really true? I remember plenty of people saying Remain would win because ABC1 voters were Remain and they vote more than C2DE voters.
    I don't recall that. In any case, I doubt that ABC1s outnumber C2DEs in this country. Whereas those who are 65+ are one of the biggest demographics in this country and were always going to vote Leave. Remain were relying on younger voters to turn out as well, and my demographic group are notoriously unreliable when it comes to that.
    You didn't read the PB threads that said so? Many times? Or the pollsters that kept down-weighting the DNVers because they couldn't believe they'd turn out? And the massive assault by Remain calling everyone who wasn't One Of Them names?

    And all the money and time spent on youngsters to turn out? The extending of the registration window by HMG in the hope to get more of them?

    I think there's selective amnesia here post-result. Hillary2016 is making many of the same mistakes.
    Wasn't there a final poll by one 'pollster' which showed a massive Remain win based on a variety of 'interesting' adjustments, too? Does that pollster have any future in political polling, do we think?

  • Options
    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503

    People keep on comparing Leave to Trump but the demographics always favoured Leave. I'm not so sure we can say the same in regard to Trump.

    Is that really true? I remember plenty of people saying Remain would win because ABC1 voters were Remain and they vote more than C2DE voters.
    I don't think Remain were ever nailed on, but Yougov's poll from 12 months out showed;

    image
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    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,388

    kle4 said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    People keep on comparing Leave to Trump but the demographics always favoured Leave. I'm not so sure we can say the same in regard to Trump.

    Is that really true? I remember plenty of people saying Remain would win because ABC1 voters were Remain and they vote more than C2DE voters.
    I don't recall that. In any case, I doubt that ABC1s outnumber C2DEs in this country. Whereas those who are 65+ are one of the biggest demographics in this country and were always going to vote Leave. Remain were relying on younger voters to turn out as well, and my demographic group are notoriously unreliable when it comes to that.
    You didn't read the PB threads that said so? Many times? Or the pollsters that kept down-weighting the DNVers because they couldn't believe they'd turn out? And the massive assault by Remain calling everyone who wasn't One Of Them names?

    And all the money and time spent on youngsters to turn out? The extending of the registration window by HMG in the hope to get more of them?
    .
    That's why there was good value - TheApocalyse is right, I think, that the demographics favoured Leave, but as you say a lot of people and organisations didn't believe that.
    Well, two things happened:

    (1) The young ABs didn't turn out as hoped but the oldies did (which the more sober of us expected)
    (2) The poorer working classes did (and far fewer predicted that) and the trends in this were disguised by a general nebulous debate about ABC1s beat C2DEs
    Some big question marks remain about how high youth turnout actually was.
  • Options
    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    glw said:

    nunu said:

    BTW the BBC has given up reporting real business news and instead as gone full on Project talk down the economy because Brexit.

    To be fair this morning the business reporter on 5 Live was pointing out that the Lloyd's news from the day before was not due to Brexit, which was how it was spun on Thursday, but due to a strategic review driven by the need to change how the bank operates now that many customers can no longer be arsed to visit a branch in person.

    The prime purpose of a bank branch is to locally recruit new personal and business customers and sell loans and deposits to existing customers.

    A branch is normally the cheapest way to acquire new business, cheaper than using the internet which costs about £300 to recruit each new current account customer.

    Recruiting customers via newspapers or the internet tends only to work in areas where that bank has a branch.

    A secondary purpose of a bank is for people to pay in cash and draw out cash although the later can be done via ATMs for smaller amounts.

    So it is in a bank's interest to have a big network of branches. But banks only need the same coverage as competitors to maintain market share. So if the biggest bank reduces its network, others are tempted to do the same.
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    PlatoSaid said:

    This is an interesting read

    http://praxis.ink/2016/07/does-political-advertising-actually-work-not-really

    "Contrary to the consultants’ claims, however, empirical research conducted by political scientists shows that such advertising campaigns are not nearly as effective as many donors have been led to believe—especially in presidential campaigns.

    This year is a unique one in political history in that it will mark the first time ever that many high-dollar GOP donors have decided to opt out of a presidential election. If they had bothered to look at the political science scholarship about campaign advertising, they’d have made this decision long ago.

    There are five reasons why:..."

    Is this why the hundreds of millions aren't hurting Trump too?

    One interesting finding is that negative advertising hurts its own campaign -- as has been said on here more than once with examples like Bitter Together in Sindyref and Project Fear in Brexit.
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    DromedaryDromedary Posts: 1,194
    edited July 2016
    nunu said:

    is there an equvilant of the sun newspaper in America who are more in tune with "provincial" america as opposed to the liberal L.A and New yourk based media? We need to see how they are covering the race.

    Lest we forget: the Sun's front page headline on the day before the EURef said that the queen wanted Brexit.

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/jun/22/the-sun-queen-brexit-front-page
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    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    glw said:

    nunu said:

    BTW the BBC has given up reporting real business news and instead as gone full on Project talk down the economy because Brexit.

    To be fair this morning the business reporter on 5 Live was pointing out that the Lloyd's news from the day before was not due to Brexit, which was how it was spun on Thursday, but due to a strategic review driven by the need to change how the bank operates now that many customers can no longer be arsed to visit a branch in person.

    It's not 'can't be arsed' its 'have absolutely no need to'. I haven't visited my local branch in five years.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383

    kle4 said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    People keep on comparing Leave to Trump but the demographics always favoured Leave. I'm not so sure we can say the same in regard to Trump.

    Is that really true? I remember plenty of people saying Remain would win because ABC1 voters were Remain and they vote more than C2DE voters.
    I don't recall that. In any case, I doubt that ABC1s outnumber C2DEs in this country. Whereas those who are 65+ are one of the biggest demographics in this country and were always going to vote Leave. Remain were relying on younger voters to turn out as well, and my demographic group are notoriously unreliable when it comes to that.
    You didn't read the PB threads that said so? Many times? Or the pollsters that kept down-weighting the DNVers because they couldn't believe they'd turn out? And the massive assault by Remain calling everyone who wasn't One Of Them names?

    And all the money and time spent on youngsters to turn out? The extending of the registration window by HMG in the hope to get more of them?
    .
    That's why there was good value - TheApocalyse is right, I think, that the demographics favoured Leave, but as you say a lot of people and organisations didn't believe that.
    Well, two things happened:

    (1) The young ABs didn't turn out as hoped but the oldies did (which the more sober of us expected)
    (2) The poorer working classes did (and far fewer predicted that) and the trends in this were disguised by a general nebulous debate about ABC1s beat C2DEs
    Some big question marks remain about how high youth turnout actually was.
    Why? It didn't. We don't question other groups, sounds like wishful excuse making to me.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,116
    Trump's great strength is his ability to simultaneously deflect incoming fire with an arsenal of guerilla tactics while also framing the substantive debate in ways which favour him.

    In future there will be a whole branch of scholarship on how he did it.
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    glwglw Posts: 9,549

    A secondary purpose of a bank is for people to pay in cash and draw out cash although the later can be done via ATMs for smaller amounts.

    So it is in a bank's interest to have a big network of branches. But banks only need the same coverage as competitors to maintain market share. So if the biggest bank reduces its network, others are tempted to do the same.

    When I go into a branch of my bank, which is rarely, the thing that strikes me is how empty they generally are. When I was younger any bank would invariably be busy, and a trip involved a longish wait in a queue. Now I find there are few customers in a branch and usually only a counter or two open. I can't even remember the last time I visited a branch of my building society, it could quite easily be over a decade ago.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,997
    Good afternoon, everyone.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,479
    edited July 2016
    Remain should have won btw. Lots of contributory factors ensured they didn't:

    - Lib Dem wipe-out and Conservative Majority
    - Purdah being built into 2015 Referendum Act
    - Discrediting (Blair, Mandelson & Clegg) or tragic death of big hitters (Charles Kennedy)
    - Election of equivocating Corbyn
    - Merkel being both overestimated and underwhelming
    - Crouching tiger, hidden Juncker
    - Cameron's poor negotiating strategy
    - Nothing to offer on immigration
    - Cameron/Cooper OTT Project Terror
    - Osborne's fiscal prattery
    - Terrible optics for Cameron on forming an alliance on the Left
    - BSE not getting it on "experts"
    - Obama hitting Leave in the solar plexus
    - Scoring Boris and Gove as the headline Leavers, not Farage
    - A innovative and ruthless Leave strategy 'take back control'

    A book should be written about it and, indeed, several will.
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    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    edited July 2016
    John_M said:

    glw said:

    nunu said:

    BTW the BBC has given up reporting real business news and instead as gone full on Project talk down the economy because Brexit.

    To be fair this morning the business reporter on 5 Live was pointing out that the Lloyd's news from the day before was not due to Brexit, which was how it was spun on Thursday, but due to a strategic review driven by the need to change how the bank operates now that many customers can no longer be arsed to visit a branch in person.

    It's not 'can't be arsed' its 'have absolutely no need to'. I haven't visited my local branch in five years.
    To open a new account you are generally required to appear in person to avoid money laundering and fraud. As church treasurer I visit the bank regularly to pay in cash and cheques and sometimes to draw out cash floats for fetes etc.

    A bank branch provides reassurance that if things go wrong there is someone locally you can go and seek help from. Arguing with a remote bank HQ over the telephone can result in being cut off!
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    FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 3,900
    edited July 2016

    MikeK said:

    IMHO Hinkley Point Nuclear Power Plant will now never be built: it's time has passed.

    True Britain will need huge amounts of electrical power in the near future, but Cameron's government didn't have the balls to make a decision back in 2010 and now the old time NPP's have had their day.

    You can say what you like about the French but they built their NPP's at a good price and when every expert said that building them was a terrible idea. So much for experts!

    Gas and wind cost less than the available nuclear technologies. Post-2030, the unwanted windpower (any more than 20 GW can overload the national grid on a sunny summer Sunday morning) will probably need to be converted into methane = storable. Search 'power to gas'; there's more development in Germany than here.

    We probably won't need 'huge amounts' of electricity. Domestic electricity consumption has been falling, due to EU legislation, and this could continue. (Germany expects its consumption to drop 25% by 2050.)

    The UK's done everything possible to block this EU legislation. Now we're probably out, ironically, the legislation will be more easily passed. If the UK stays in the Single Market the new appliances sold here will probably almost all meet the EU's efficiency standards, over which the Daily Express et al will have no say at all. (Ha ha.)
    Yes, that sounds about right, though I'd expect nuclear generation to continue to provide some baseload power for a while yet. The future will be gas-backed renewables, with the proportion of power generated by renewables to rise as demand management and/or storage is improved. Coal is, or soon will be, dead. Fusion power remains an outside bet.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,479

    kle4 said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    People keep on comparing Leave to Trump but the demographics always favoured Leave. I'm not so sure we can say the same in regard to Trump.

    Is that really true? I remember plenty of people saying Remain would win because ABC1 voters were Remain and they vote more than C2DE voters.
    I don't recall that. In any case, I doubt that ABC1s outnumber C2DEs in this country. Whereas those who are 65+ are one of the biggest demographics in this country and were always going to vote Leave. Remain were relying on younger voters to turn out as well, and my demographic group are notoriously unreliable when it comes to that.
    You didn't read the PB threads that said so? Many times? Or the pollsters that kept down-weighting the DNVers because they couldn't believe they'd turn out? And the massive assault by Remain calling everyone who wasn't One Of Them names?

    And all the money and time spent on youngsters to turn out? The extending of the registration window by HMG in the hope to get more of them?
    .
    That's why there was good value - TheApocalyse is right, I think, that the demographics favoured Leave, but as you say a lot of people and organisations didn't believe that.
    Well, two things happened:

    (1) The young ABs didn't turn out as hoped but the oldies did (which the more sober of us expected)
    (2) The poorer working classes did (and far fewer predicted that) and the trends in this were disguised by a general nebulous debate about ABC1s beat C2DEs
    Some big question marks remain about how high youth turnout actually was.
    Low. Voting is uncool and something old and boring people do. And my vote won't count anyway.. And I don't care that much anyway except on social media.

    Etc.
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    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    glw said:

    A secondary purpose of a bank is for people to pay in cash and draw out cash although the later can be done via ATMs for smaller amounts.

    So it is in a bank's interest to have a big network of branches. But banks only need the same coverage as competitors to maintain market share. So if the biggest bank reduces its network, others are tempted to do the same.

    When I go into a branch of my bank, which is rarely, the thing that strikes me is how empty they generally are. When I was younger any bank would invariably be busy, and a trip involved a longish wait in a queue. Now I find there are few customers in a branch and usually only a counter or two open. I can't even remember the last time I visited a branch of my building society, it could quite easily be over a decade ago.
    You may find that your building society is no longer a building society but a bank.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    edited July 2016

    Trump's great strength is his ability to simultaneously deflect incoming fire with an arsenal of guerilla tactics while also framing the substantive debate in ways which favour him.

    In future there will be a whole branch of scholarship on how he did it.

    If I had to summarise Trump's talents - it'd be:

    - knowing how to belittle his opponents with a true-enough name call. Crooked Hillary, Little Rubio, Ly'in Ted. There was a kernal of truth in them all that works. Defining your opponent before they do is PR 101.

    - saying the unsayable. We saw Farage do that very many times and dragging the agenda onto his ground. Look at today's Daily News frontpage - Team Hillary paper saying she'd make *America Greater*. Fail.

    - being totally available to the media and making the narrative. Say something outrageous enough to get the airtime/drown out your rivals then pivot onto something a bit less OTT once you've killed them off

    - Talk strong and upbeat. Be Mr America Will Be Great Again. Don't pretend to be what you aren't. Arrive in your 1% jet plane and say it's a good thing - don't be ashamed for a second. Parade your model wife and children. You can be me or a teeny bit of it. It's his whole Apprentice persona as political agenda.

    The Washington Establishment look wooden, entitled and elitist without justification in comparison.
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    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    Dromedary said:

    nunu said:

    is there an equvilant of the sun newspaper in America who are more in tune with "provincial" america as opposed to the liberal L.A and New yourk based media? We need to see how they are covering the race.

    Lest we forget: the Sun's front page headline on the day before the EURef said that the queen wanted Brexit.

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/jun/22/the-sun-queen-brexit-front-page
    What resonated wasn't that the Queen supposedly wanted Brexit it was the " three good reasons to stay" most swing voters can't answer that.
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,125

    Scott_P said:
    People viewing Hillary Clinton's speech are likely to be a pro-Hillary-Clinton sample.
    They did the same poll for Trump after his speech and the 71 for Clinton was just 58 for Trump.
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    weejonnie said:

    People keep on comparing Leave to Trump but the demographics always favoured Leave. I'm not so sure we can say the same in regard to Trump.

    The demographics are those who don't normally vote in POTUS elections but who now decide to do so.
    But isnt that part of the whole polling problem??

    Brexit / Corbyn/ Trump/ Sanders picked up significant support from those who dont normally vote because no-one was answering the questions they want answered.

    We hear a lot on here from the likes of Big JohnOwls and others who are fed up with Labour not representing the WWC. I think Sanders probably tapped into that feeling a lot in the Primaries.

    Trump will get out people who dont normally vote.( he has done better in the primaries than expected)
    Corbyn will get out people who dont normally vote (his by-election results have been better than expected)

    The question is will they alienate more than they attract?


    The Labour party members were cross with the Blairite narrative and wanted change=Corbyn
    The UK was cross with the EU=Brexit
    Greece=Syrizia
    Italy=Pepe Grillo
    France=LePenn
    Etc

    The US is crazy cross and wants change.

    Love or Loath him-nobody expects Trump to be the continuity candidate.

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    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    I read somewhere that a post referendum poll showed support for Brexit has increased since the referendum.

    Anyone seen the source?
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    PlatoSaid said:

    I can't for a moment give any credence to what the political lobby hacks or commentators say about Trump.

    They've been beyond wrong at every turn. Most come from the liberal left which doesn't help either. I suspect this election has a Brexit surprise in store.

    I could feel CNN smiling during their Hillary speech analysis. The enormous sneering at Trump is very misplaced given who he's demolished along way.

    They think he is bonkers, and they are right. the very idea of Trump as President is unimaginable
    So you agree with them, and you would be horrified at a Trump victory.

    That's irrelevant. What is relevant is determining through sober fact based analysis whether he's going to win or not and whether the current odds are value or not.
    I think that a sober analysis of Trump's manifesto means that Americans are all bonkers if Trump gets the White House and it would be very dangerous for the World too. Neither candidate is attractive, HRC is the least worst option.
    Agreed

    But I dont think people are in the mood for "the least worst option"

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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383

    Remain should have won btw. Lots of contributory factors ensured they didn't:

    - Crouching tiger, hidden Juncker


    A book should be written about it and, indeed, several will.

    :lol:
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    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503

    John_M said:

    glw said:

    nunu said:

    BTW the BBC has given up reporting real business news and instead as gone full on Project talk down the economy because Brexit.

    To be fair this morning the business reporter on 5 Live was pointing out that the Lloyd's news from the day before was not due to Brexit, which was how it was spun on Thursday, but due to a strategic review driven by the need to change how the bank operates now that many customers can no longer be arsed to visit a branch in person.

    It's not 'can't be arsed' its 'have absolutely no need to'. I haven't visited my local branch in five years.
    To open a new account you are generally required to appear in person to avoid money laundering and fraud. As church treasurer I visit the bank regularly to pay in cash and cheques and sometimes to draw out cash floats for fetes etc.

    A bank branch provides reassurance that if things go wrong there is someone locally you can go and seek help from. Arguing with a remote bank HQ over the telephone can result in being cut off!
    Oh, I wasn't extrapolating from the specific (me) to the general. I always like to trot out the stat that 21% of English folk don't use the Internet at all. That's a respectable political party right there :).
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,997
    Mr. Nunu, there was a piece for the Sunday Politics from a Remain campaigner who said that, early on, they wanted a list of five good things about the EU. And they couldn't think of any.
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    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    John_M said:

    John_M said:

    glw said:

    nunu said:

    BTW the BBC has given up reporting real business news and instead as gone full on Project talk down the economy because Brexit.

    To be fair this morning the business reporter on 5 Live was pointing out that the Lloyd's news from the day before was not due to Brexit, which was how it was spun on Thursday, but due to a strategic review driven by the need to change how the bank operates now that many customers can no longer be arsed to visit a branch in person.

    It's not 'can't be arsed' its 'have absolutely no need to'. I haven't visited my local branch in five years.
    To open a new account you are generally required to appear in person to avoid money laundering and fraud. As church treasurer I visit the bank regularly to pay in cash and cheques and sometimes to draw out cash floats for fetes etc.

    A bank branch provides reassurance that if things go wrong there is someone locally you can go and seek help from. Arguing with a remote bank HQ over the telephone can result in being cut off!
    Oh, I wasn't extrapolating from the specific (me) to the general. I always like to trot out the stat that 21% of English folk don't use the Internet at all. That's a respectable political party right there :).
    Another statistic is that people change their wives more frequently than they change their bank.
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    ThrakThrak Posts: 494

    Trump's great strength is his ability to simultaneously deflect incoming fire with an arsenal of guerilla tactics while also framing the substantive debate in ways which favour him.

    In future there will be a whole branch of scholarship on how he did it.

    It's a Medicine Show'; the history of American culture places him within that line (and one of the last great ones was also a politician, though a southern Democrat, Dudley LeBlanc. What he does isn't new, it's the oldest trick in the book. I find medicine shows, the old freak shows, travelling preachers and stuff fascinating.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicine_show
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    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    Trump's great strength is his ability to simultaneously deflect incoming fire with an arsenal of guerilla tactics while also framing the substantive debate in ways which favour him.

    In future there will be a whole branch of scholarship on how he did it.

    I think he is basing himself on two existing branches of scholarship - Boyd's OODA loop (from military strategy) and Cialdini's Psychology of Persuasion (from marketing). Pretty much everything he does can be seen as the result of synthesizing these two methodologies.
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    The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    How are unreliable voters the demographic which won it for Leave exactly? It was older voters (a reliable demographic in terms of voting) that won it for leave after all. Surely money spent on getting young people to turn out proves my point. That Remain were relying on unreliable demographics to vote for them which is why they pulled out the stops to get young people to the polls. Young ABC1s are still young voters at the end of the day who are part of a demographic that traditionally don't turn up at the polls.
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    madmacsmadmacs Posts: 75
    Always bet with my head, hence on leave although I voted remain. Think Trump has a better chance than the odds show. However I cannot bring myself to put a penny on him, as he seems more likely to do something stupid which could affect me and my family. I would hate to win money and end up worried for the next four years (at least).
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    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133

    How are unreliable voters the demographic which won it for Leave exactly? It was older voters (a reliable demographic in terms of voting) that won it for leave after all. Surely money spent on getting young people to turn out proves my point. That Remain were relying on unreliable demographics to vote for them which is why they pulled out the stops to get young people to the polls. Young ABC1s are still young voters at the end of the day who are part of a demographic that traditionally don't turn up at the polls.

    I think the point is that it's the middle aged 40-something and 50-something WWC who had given up voting in elections ("because they're all the same") who turned out decisively for Leave.
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    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    edited July 2016

    How are unreliable voters the demographic which won it for Leave exactly? It was older voters (a reliable demographic in terms of voting) that won it for leave after all. Surely money spent on getting young people to turn out proves my point. That Remain were relying on unreliable demographics to vote for them which is why they pulled out the stops to get young people to the polls. Young ABC1s are still young voters at the end of the day who are part of a demographic that traditionally don't turn up at the polls.

    The best analysis I've seen thus far. Full of facts and figures.

    http://www.britishfuture.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Disbanding-the-tribes-report.July-2016.pdf

    The TLDR: Remain did as well as it could do to pull in 'soft' Remainers. Leave won as it expanded the electorate - people voting for the first time or for the first time in decades.
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    The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830

    How are unreliable voters the demographic which won it for Leave exactly? It was older voters (a reliable demographic in terms of voting) that won it for leave after all. Surely money spent on getting young people to turn out proves my point. That Remain were relying on unreliable demographics to vote for them which is why they pulled out the stops to get young people to the polls. Young ABC1s are still young voters at the end of the day who are part of a demographic that traditionally don't turn up at the polls.

    I think the point is that it's the middle aged 40-something and 50-something WWC who had given up voting in elections ("because they're all the same") who turned out decisively for Leave.
    IIRC polls had always showed that age demographic as trending towards Leave as well.
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    Carolus_RexCarolus_Rex Posts: 1,414

    How are unreliable voters the demographic which won it for Leave exactly? It was older voters (a reliable demographic in terms of voting) that won it for leave after all. Surely money spent on getting young people to turn out proves my point. That Remain were relying on unreliable demographics to vote for them which is why they pulled out the stops to get young people to the polls. Young ABC1s are still young voters at the end of the day who are part of a demographic that traditionally don't turn up at the polls.

    I wonder when it became traditional for young voters not to vote. Anecdotal I know but I was at school when I first voted in 1983 and I made a point of voting and so did just about everyone I knew. It still felt like a privilege or a sort of rite of passage. I don't think there was any expectation then that younger people were any less likely to vote. So what happened?
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    MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651
    Thrak said:

    Trump's great strength is his ability to simultaneously deflect incoming fire with an arsenal of guerilla tactics while also framing the substantive debate in ways which favour him.

    In future there will be a whole branch of scholarship on how he did it.

    It's a Medicine Show'; the history of American culture places him within that line (and one of the last great ones was also a politician, though a southern Democrat, Dudley LeBlanc. What he does isn't new, it's the oldest trick in the book. I find medicine shows, the old freak shows, travelling preachers and stuff fascinating.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicine_show
    This, and Tim T's comment about Boyd's OODA loop and Cialdini's psychology of persuasion, are top posts.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383

    Mr. Nunu, there was a piece for the Sunday Politics from a Remain campaigner who said that, early on, they wanted a list of five good things about the EU. And they couldn't think of any.

    Without intending to be unkind to anyone I'm about to cite - these were the impressions they left me with.

    @foxinsoxuk - my NHS paperwork will be harder if we Brexit.

    @SouthamObserver - my sales conferences will be a bit more difficult to organise if we Brexit, but I manage fine outside the EU

    @TOPPING - my City investments may be adversely effected and I'm really well off BTW

    @Richard_Nabavi - I'm far too clever for all this and agree with Topping

    @felix - I'm an expat living in Spain and you should do what suits me personally - and you're all stupid if you don't

    @edmundintokyo - I've lived in Tokyo for a very long time, and talk a lot about ideal theoretical models re immigration and liberal politics. I have no idea what living in the UK is like bar a flying visit home.

    I didn't see many convincing reasons to Remain in the EU in their posts.
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    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503

    How are unreliable voters the demographic which won it for Leave exactly? It was older voters (a reliable demographic in terms of voting) that won it for leave after all. Surely money spent on getting young people to turn out proves my point. That Remain were relying on unreliable demographics to vote for them which is why they pulled out the stops to get young people to the polls. Young ABC1s are still young voters at the end of the day who are part of a demographic that traditionally don't turn up at the polls.

    I wonder when it became traditional for young voters not to vote. Anecdotal I know but I was at school when I first voted in 1983 and I made a point of voting and so did just about everyone I knew. It still felt like a privilege or a sort of rite of passage. I don't think there was any expectation then that younger people were any less likely to vote. So what happened?
    The political parties became like multiple cheeks of the same arse and the UK became incredibly affluent.
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    nunununu Posts: 6,024

    Mr. Nunu, there was a piece for the Sunday Politics from a Remain campaigner who said that, early on, they wanted a list of five good things about the EU. And they couldn't think of any.

    Yeah I saw that "the room went silent".
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,947

    How are unreliable voters the demographic which won it for Leave exactly? It was older voters (a reliable demographic in terms of voting) that won it for leave after all.

    It was not just the usual older voters - it was older non-voters who also turned out (and did so for Leave) which won it, together with the even more unreliable youth vote a you've identified.

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    The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830

    How are unreliable voters the demographic which won it for Leave exactly? It was older voters (a reliable demographic in terms of voting) that won it for leave after all. Surely money spent on getting young people to turn out proves my point. That Remain were relying on unreliable demographics to vote for them which is why they pulled out the stops to get young people to the polls. Young ABC1s are still young voters at the end of the day who are part of a demographic that traditionally don't turn up at the polls.

    I wonder when it became traditional for young voters not to vote. Anecdotal I know but I was at school when I first voted in 1983 and I made a point of voting and so did just about everyone I knew. It still felt like a privilege or a sort of rite of passage. I don't think there was any expectation then that younger people were any less likely to vote. So what happened?
    Tbh I think my generation just don't see the relevance of politics in their lives right now. They don't see how political decisions will impact their lives. Politics is also something which seems fairly dull and boring to them and all politicians 'sound the same.'
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    weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    saddened said:

    glw said:

    nunu said:

    BTW the BBC has given up reporting real business news and instead as gone full on Project talk down the economy because Brexit.

    To be fair this morning the business reporter on 5 Live was pointing out that the Lloyd's news from the day before was not due to Brexit, which was how it was spun on Thursday, but due to a strategic review driven by the need to change how the bank operates now that many customers can no longer be arsed to visit a branch in person.

    Id happily go to branch, apart from the fact that they will blow you out and recommend you call their call centre or go online.
    Or try and sell you stuff you don't actually need. What amazes me is that people profess to hate the banks and then go in their millions to insurance companies owned by the said banks.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383

    How are unreliable voters the demographic which won it for Leave exactly? It was older voters (a reliable demographic in terms of voting) that won it for leave after all. Surely money spent on getting young people to turn out proves my point. That Remain were relying on unreliable demographics to vote for them which is why they pulled out the stops to get young people to the polls. Young ABC1s are still young voters at the end of the day who are part of a demographic that traditionally don't turn up at the polls.

    ARGH.

    It was the disenfranchised 2.4m that changed the vote. These people were DNVers and hadn't for 20yrs in many cases. No Party spoke for them - and this was their opportunity to kick the Estabishment up the arse.

    People in LabourLand whose MP wanted Remain gave them a massive black eye. Same in ToryLand to a much lesser degree. Everyone's vote counted and they said so with gusto.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,052
    MikeK said:

    IMHO Hinkley Point Nuclear Power Plant will now never be built: it's time has passed.

    True Britain will need huge amounts of electrical power in the near future, but Cameron's government didn't have the balls to make a decision back in 2010 and now the old time NPP's have had their day.

    You can say what you like about the French but they built their NPP's at a good price and when every expert said that building them was a terrible idea. So much for experts!

    That's not true.

    Almost every country went on expensive nuclear building programmes post the oil shock at the beginning of the 1970s, backed up by every expert around. The difference between France and everywhere else was:

    1. France standardised on a single reactor design (we, on the other hand, had about eight totally different designs)
    2. France built enough nuclear capacity to not just cover baseload but most of peak

    The idea that has been cost free is - of course - absolute rubbish. The returns on the French power plants have been no better than anyone else's - the difference is that the gap between cost of funding and revenues was hidden in the French government's books rather than being obvious to all.
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    Carolus_RexCarolus_Rex Posts: 1,414

    How are unreliable voters the demographic which won it for Leave exactly? It was older voters (a reliable demographic in terms of voting) that won it for leave after all. Surely money spent on getting young people to turn out proves my point. That Remain were relying on unreliable demographics to vote for them which is why they pulled out the stops to get young people to the polls. Young ABC1s are still young voters at the end of the day who are part of a demographic that traditionally don't turn up at the polls.

    I wonder when it became traditional for young voters not to vote. Anecdotal I know but I was at school when I first voted in 1983 and I made a point of voting and so did just about everyone I knew. It still felt like a privilege or a sort of rite of passage. I don't think there was any expectation then that younger people were any less likely to vote. So what happened?
    Tbh I think my generation just don't see the relevance of politics in their lives right now. They don't see how political decisions will impact their lives. Politics is also something which seems fairly dull and boring to them and all politicians 'sound the same.'
    Fair enough but a lot of that was true in my day too. Admittedly Margaret Thatcher didn't sound the same as Michael Foot, but otherwise I still wonder what's so very different.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    edited July 2016
    John_M said:

    How are unreliable voters the demographic which won it for Leave exactly? It was older voters (a reliable demographic in terms of voting) that won it for leave after all. Surely money spent on getting young people to turn out proves my point. That Remain were relying on unreliable demographics to vote for them which is why they pulled out the stops to get young people to the polls. Young ABC1s are still young voters at the end of the day who are part of a demographic that traditionally don't turn up at the polls.

    I wonder when it became traditional for young voters not to vote. Anecdotal I know but I was at school when I first voted in 1983 and I made a point of voting and so did just about everyone I knew. It still felt like a privilege or a sort of rite of passage. I don't think there was any expectation then that younger people were any less likely to vote. So what happened?
    The political parties became like multiple cheeks of the same arse and the UK became incredibly affluent.
    I do wonder if it takes that political disconnect to create the polarisation we see today. Students and others blithering about transgender micro-politics and safe spaces vs gritty day-to-day life in Rochdale.

    It's Berkeley vs Harlan County, Kentucky. I thought Harlan was a made-up place in Justified. It isn't.

    "And more recent history hasn't been too far removed from some Justified plot lines, local fans pointed out.

    In the early 1980s, for instance, then-Sheriff Paul L. Browning Jr. was convicted of plotting to kill political enemies.

    When Browning tried to regain the office in 2002, a deputy who was taking payoffs from a drug dealer provided a gun and a $1,000 payment to have Browning murdered.

    The deputy, Roger D. Hall — son of a longtime county magistrate — apparently was afraid that if Browning won, he would fire Hall, cutting off his access to drug bribes. Hall pleaded guilty and is serving 30 years in prison."


    Read more here: http://www.kentucky.com/entertainment/tv/article44150238.html#storylink=cpy
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    The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    And yet despite many polls weighing down the DNVs towards the end of the campaign (with the exception of the last week) polls continued to show Leave in the lead.

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