politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Labour’s massive challenge: Support for Corbyn as “best PM”
Comments
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foxinsoxuk said:
Fox jr and fellow students are becoming much more open to the LDs, in part because the fees generation has moved on, and fees are the new normal, but also they feel they have had their revenge in 2015. There is a lot of youth support for the LDs unreserved pro-Remain position and anti-Iraq war too.john_zims said:@PClipp
'I think local government elections are more significant. They reflect the capacity of parties to campaign strongly in a particular area.'
That used to work for the Lib Dems but after the tuition fee lies it will be a very long time before they are ever trusted again at national level.
It will not be a quick return to parliament, but may not be as far off as it seemed a year ago. Brexit and the seppuko of the Labour Party are having an effect.
Lib Dem revival is not shown by the polls. Lib Dems stuck at 8%.
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If we make the Commonwealth sucessful enough we can all leave the UN and save a fortune and make the Commonwealth games more important than the Olympics.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Alternate history timeline - European nations joining the Commonwealth:Paul_Bedfordshire said:
Thank God we voted Brexit. And still they don't get it.MaxPB said:
Those changes haven't been made, slap them with single market violations if they are.rcs1000 said:
Don't some of the plans - such as preventing foreigners from owning media outlets in Poland - fall foul of their treaty obligations?
What has happened is the Polish government were elected with a majority and decided that the last government had acted without honour by appointing three judges to their constitutional court as they left office. The new government hace blocked their ascent and nominated their own judges who are rather more Eurosceptic. The EU has decided this is the hill it wants to die on.
I hope the Poles rebuke them for so arrogantly pretending to have such powers.
Maybe what we need to do is set up a Commonwealth single market and invite countries like Poland, Denmark etc. to leave the EU and join the Commonwealth.
1973 Ireland, Denmark, Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg, France, Italy, West Germany,
1981 Greece
1986 Spain, Portugal
1990 East Germany and Berlin
1995 Austria, Finland, Sweden
2004 Malta, Cyprus, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Slovenia
2007 Bulgaria, Romania
2013 Croatia
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Missed this from May earlier:
"“I’m looking at this with an open mind,” Mrs May said. “I think we should be developing the model that suits the United Kingdom and the European Union. Not adopting, necessarily, a model that is on the shelf already.”0 -
I think Cyprus joined the Commonwealth in 1961 shortly after independence in 1960. Malta likewise in 1964.TheWhiteRabbit said:
East Germany didn't really join the EU, it joined West Germany. So it wouldn't really have joined the Commonwealth :PSunil_Prasannan said:
Alternate history timeline - European nations joining the Commonwealth:Paul_Bedfordshire said:
Thank God we voted Brexit. And still they don't get it.MaxPB said:
Those changes haven't been made, slap them with single market violations if they are.rcs1000 said:
Don't some of the plans - such as preventing foreigners from owning media outlets in Poland - fall foul of their treaty obligations?
What has happened is the Polish government were elected with a majority and decided that the last government had acted without honour by appointing three judges to their constitutional court as they left office. The new government hace blocked their ascent and nominated their own judges who are rather more Eurosceptic. The EU has decided this is the hill it wants to die on.
I hope the Poles rebuke them for so arrogantly pretending to have such powers.
Maybe what we need to do is set up a Commonwealth single market and invite countries like Poland, Denmark etc. to leave the EU and join the Commonwealth.
1973 Ireland, Denmark, Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg, France, Italy, West Germany,
1981 Greece
1986 Spain, Portugal
1990 East Germany and Berlin
1995 Austria, Finland, Sweden
2004 Malta, Cyprus, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Slovenia
2007 Bulgaria, Romania
2013 Croatia0 -
I'm sure.williamglenn said:
Near a migration centre.MaxPB said:
Hans Schmidt clearly forgot to turn the gas off.John_M said:Explosion in Germany:
https://twitter.com/BR_Franken/status/758308623575416832
Expect a different narrative for this one...
In semi-related news the Polish media have been investigating the machete killing and come up with more interesting facts than the useless German media.
1. She wasn't pregnant, she already had children.
2. The man didn't work there but hung around there with a group of other migrants.
3. He killed her after she rejected his advances.0 -
Mr. Glenn, the explosion is clearly the work of David.0
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Check Twitter's #boycottbyron and be amazed...0
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I should of thought that was a statement of bleedin' obviousJohn_M said:Missed this from May earlier:
"“I’m looking at this with an open mind,” Mrs May said. “I think we should be developing the model that suits the United Kingdom and the European Union. Not adopting, necessarily, a model that is on the shelf already.”0 -
Apparently France seriously wanted to join the UK in 1956.MTimT said:
I think Cyprus joined the Commonwealth in 1961 shortly after independence in 1960. Malta likewise in 1964.TheWhiteRabbit said:
East Germany didn't really join the EU, it joined West Germany. So it wouldn't really have joined the Commonwealth :PSunil_Prasannan said:
Alternate history timeline - European nations joining the Commonwealth:Paul_Bedfordshire said:
Thank God we voted Brexit. And still they don't get it.MaxPB said:
Those changes haven't been made, slap them with single market violations if they are.rcs1000 said:
Don't some of the plans - such as preventing foreigners from owning media outlets in Poland - fall foul of their treaty obligations?
What has happened is the Polish government were elected with a majority and decided that the last government had acted without honour by appointing three judges to their constitutional court as they left office. The new government hace blocked their ascent and nominated their own judges who are rather more Eurosceptic. The EU has decided this is the hill it wants to die on.
I hope the Poles rebuke them for so arrogantly pretending to have such powers.
Maybe what we need to do is set up a Commonwealth single market and invite countries like Poland, Denmark etc. to leave the EU and join the Commonwealth.
1973 Ireland, Denmark, Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg, France, Italy, West Germany,
1981 Greece
1986 Spain, Portugal
1990 East Germany and Berlin
1995 Austria, Finland, Sweden
2004 Malta, Cyprus, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Slovenia
2007 Bulgaria, Romania
2013 Croatia
Apparently also Algeria are applying to join the Commonwealth and France are fuming about it0 -
Things will not change till either or both Labour and Tory become real Scottish parties rather than london regional sockpuppetsPhilip_Thompson said:
Nobody is disputing that. But then no sensible Tories hubristically believe they have an inevitable right to rule for the foreseeable decades even if the opposition were to.get a sensible leader. SNP supporters do seem to believe that.Pulpstar said:
Maybe that's because it is alot harder to get a majority under the Holyrood rules ! They're still more popular in Scotland than the Conservatives are UK wide anyway.Philip_Thompson said:
Compare like for like results. The voting system hasn't changed, only the results changed.Pulpstar said:
Still the most popular party in any individual country of the UK, just really the voting system flatters the Conservatives in Westminster compared to the SNP in Holyrood.Philip_Thompson said:
The unkind might suggest they had a marginal comeuppance only 2 months ago with the loss of their majority ...kle4 said:
So the SNP are due a comeuppance in 7-10 years? We can hope I guess.MonikerDiCanio said:
The SNP's current complacency reminds many of SLab's a decade ago. So smug and so stupid.grabcocque said:
It seems to be pretty much unarguable now that the Tories are the party on the march in Scotland, and are best placed to hoover up the SNP when their arrogance and incompetence finally smashes them on the rocks.malcolmg said:
Tory fanboys wetting their pants on a subsampleTheScreamingEagles said:
Not quite half the SNP score, but next year's Scottish council elections are going to be fun.CarlottaVance said:Scottish Tory Surge Klaxon
Westminster voting intention (Scotland n=154)
Con: 23
Lab: 11
LibD: 3
UKIP: 6
SNP: 53
I know its a subsample, but have the Tories ever been more than double Labour (and more than half the SNP(!)) before?
Still can't get over those Scottish YouGov leader ratings from yesterday
Tories went from no majority to a majority under the same voting system.
SNP went from a majority to no majority under the same voting system.
I would caution any side against hubris.0 -
Um, yes, you are completely correct - I was just testing youMTimT said:
I think Cyprus joined the Commonwealth in 1961 shortly after independence in 1960. Malta likewise in 1964.TheWhiteRabbit said:
East Germany didn't really join the EU, it joined West Germany. So it wouldn't really have joined the Commonwealth :PSunil_Prasannan said:
Alternate history timeline - European nations joining the Commonwealth:Paul_Bedfordshire said:
Thank God we voted Brexit. And still they don't get it.MaxPB said:
Those changes haven't been made, slap them with single market violations if they are.rcs1000 said:
Don't some of the plans - such as preventing foreigners from owning media outlets in Poland - fall foul of their treaty obligations?
What has happened is the Polish government were elected with a majority and decided that the last government had acted without honour by appointing three judges to their constitutional court as they left office. The new government hace blocked their ascent and nominated their own judges who are rather more Eurosceptic. The EU has decided this is the hill it wants to die on.
I hope the Poles rebuke them for so arrogantly pretending to have such powers.
Maybe what we need to do is set up a Commonwealth single market and invite countries like Poland, Denmark etc. to leave the EU and join the Commonwealth.
1973 Ireland, Denmark, Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg, France, Italy, West Germany,
1981 Greece
1986 Spain, Portugal
1990 East Germany and Berlin
1995 Austria, Finland, Sweden
2004 Malta, Cyprus, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Slovenia
2007 Bulgaria, Romania
2013 Croatia
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I think they imply it goes beyond a single point of failure, but is a systematic attempt by the government to pervert the legal institutions in Poland.Cyclefree said:
If it is saying that then that is a process failure which could, I imagine, be cured e.g. by removing the judges lawfully and appointing the replacements lawfully. Even here there is a process by which judges can be removed - even if it is very very rarely used.williamglenn said:
More importantly, isn't it saying that the previous judges have been unlawfully removed?Cyclefree said:
I am not a Polish lawyer. With that caveat:-
- all the first bullet point is saying that the new judges must be lawfully selected. That's a process issue.
It's as if Trump got elected and then tried to remove the Supreme Court judges he didn't like and replace them with his picks.
If following EU rules is important then this principle must be applied to all EU states equally and not just to those states with governments which the EU Commission doesn't approve of. Unfortunately, as we have seen, some EU states find it very easy indeed to ignore EU rules without so much as a peep from the Commission.
EU law is not equal for all - and this is - or ought to be - a fundamental value.
As such it's a judgment whether all of it put together constitutes a "systemic threat to the rule of law" The Commission presumably believes the Polish threat to be much greater than any previous case.
The Commission do set out a long list of things they object to here
If I were a Pole I would be worried about this. The EU claims to be an institution that promotes the rule of law and it is a fundamental requirement for membership. So I think it can legitimately be concerned about major lapses amongst member states. At this point it's a case to be answered.0 -
Tell that to all the Brexiters on here who want the EEA option yesterday.HurstLlama said:
I should of thought that was a statement of bleedin' obviousJohn_M said:Missed this from May earlier:
"“I’m looking at this with an open mind,” Mrs May said. “I think we should be developing the model that suits the United Kingdom and the European Union. Not adopting, necessarily, a model that is on the shelf already.”0 -
Amazing. I might start eating there again!TheWhiteRabbit said:Check Twitter's #boycottbyron and be amazed...
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Back to a real Scottish Labour party. The clowns will be ousted at some point and a real Scottish Labour party formed.grabcocque said:
When the SNP's popularity does start to wane -- and it can only defy political gravity for so long -- where do you think SNP votes will go?malcolmg said:
LOL, how delusional can you get and that from a handful of people.grabcocque said:
It seems to be pretty much unarguable now that the Tories are the party on the march in Scotland, and are best placed to hoover up the SNP when their arrogance and incompetence finally smashes them on the rocks.malcolmg said:
Tory fanboys wetting their pants on a subsampleTheScreamingEagles said:
Not quite half the SNP score, but next year's Scottish council elections are going to be fun.CarlottaVance said:Scottish Tory Surge Klaxon
Westminster voting intention (Scotland n=154)
Con: 23
Lab: 11
LibD: 3
UKIP: 6
SNP: 53
I know its a subsample, but have the Tories ever been more than double Labour (and more than half the SNP(!)) before?
Still can't get over those Scottish YouGov leader ratings from yesterday0 -
The trouble with fighting Corbyn on policies is that (a) it's a category error: as Glen O'Hara points out, this election is about identity; and (b) you end up with:
https://twitter.com/youngvulgarian/status/7583130232704532480 -
Because the EU is fundamentally a political project none of us should be surprised that it uses the powers it accrues to pursue political ends.Cyclefree said:
If it is saying that then that is a process failure which could, I imagine, be cured e.g. by removing the judges lawfully and appointing the replacements lawfully. Even here there is a process by which judges can be removed - even if it is very very rarely used.williamglenn said:
More importantly, isn't it saying that the previous judges have been unlawfully removed?Cyclefree said:
I am not a Polish lawyer. With that caveat:-
- all the first bullet point is saying that the new judges must be lawfully selected. That's a process issue.
It's as if Trump got elected and then tried to remove the Supreme Court judges he didn't like and replace them with his picks.
If following EU rules is important then this principle must be applied to all EU states equally and not just to those states with governments which the EU Commission doesn't approve of. Unfortunately, as we have seen, some EU states find it very easy indeed to ignore EU rules without so much as a peep from the Commission.
EU law is not equal for all - and this is - or ought to be - a fundamental value.0 -
Jezza beats her hands down he is looking all the way back to the '70s.Paul_Bedfordshire said:
I used to think Hattie was rather good looking a decade or two back....kle4 said:
Some things we're better off not knowing.Casino_Royale said:
I am at a loss to explain the sudden outpouring of sexual desire for Theresa May by pb'ers today.Cyclefree said:
So the lovely Mrs May is a FLOTTILTS or WILS for short......foxinsoxuk said:
Yes, that is much more like it!Cyclefree said:
Are five letter Anglo-Saxon words permitted? As in Swive Off?foxinsoxuk said:A plea for civility.
I note a deplorable rise in the use of four letter anglo-saxon words on this and previous threads, well before the lagershed. Can we please revert to the more inventive words of abuse and response that PB is esteemed for?
Glad we've got that sorted then.
Serious bit: these terrorist incidents are getting beyond a joke right now.0 -
He does realise that's worse right?Tissue_Price said:The trouble with fighting Corbyn on policies is that (a) it's a category error: as Glen O'Hara points out, this election is about identity; and (b) you end up with:
https://twitter.com/youngvulgarian/status/758313023270453248
Under a zero hours contract, an employee is (at least notionally) free to decline any offer of work. If they had a one hour contract, then their employer could use that one hour to guarantee that the worker were compelled to waste their own time.0 -
Rwanda and Mozambique are two non-former-British Colonies wot joined. Rwanda was German, then Belgian, and Mozambique was Portuguese.Paul_Bedfordshire said:
Apparently France seriously wanted to join the UK in 1956.MTimT said:
I think Cyprus joined the Commonwealth in 1961 shortly after independence in 1960. Malta likewise in 1964.TheWhiteRabbit said:
East Germany didn't really join the EU, it joined West Germany. So it wouldn't really have joined the Commonwealth :PSunil_Prasannan said:
Alternate history timeline - European nations joining the Commonwealth:Paul_Bedfordshire said:
Thank God we voted Brexit. And still they don't get it.MaxPB said:
Those changes haven't been made, slap them with single market violations if they are.rcs1000 said:
Don't some of the plans - such as preventing foreigners from owning media outlets in Poland - fall foul of their treaty obligations?
What has happened is the Polish government were elected with a majority and decided that the last government had acted without honour by appointing three judges to their constitutional court as they left office. The new government hace blocked their ascent and nominated their own judges who are rather more Eurosceptic. The EU has decided this is the hill it wants to die on.
I hope the Poles rebuke them for so arrogantly pretending to have such powers.
Maybe what we need to do is set up a Commonwealth single market and invite countries like Poland, Denmark etc. to leave the EU and join the Commonwealth.
1973 Ireland, Denmark, Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg, France, Italy, West Germany,
1981 Greece
1986 Spain, Portugal
1990 East Germany and Berlin
1995 Austria, Finland, Sweden
2004 Malta, Cyprus, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Slovenia
2007 Bulgaria, Romania
2013 Croatia
Apparently also Algeria are applying to join the Commonwealth and France are fuming about it
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Liam Fox is pushing for the UK to be outside an EU customs union whilst number 10 wants to keep options open.
The non EU Turkey is in the EU customs union which gives it some advantages about access and paperwork in the EU.
However, those inside the custom union have to apply EU tariffs to imports from those countries outside the customs union.
Liam Fox wants to be outside the EU customs union and free to negotiate UK terms with non EU countries.
The US says it needs to know which it is before it can start trade talks with the UK.
See https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/economy/business-regulation/news/77695/no-10-forced-clarify-liam-fox-comments-post-brexit0 -
And if the Polish people who just elected the government to make these changes think they have gone too far they are free to elect a different government to reverse said changes. Democracy in action. You europhiles disgust me.FF43 said:
I think they imply it goes beyond a single point of failure, but is a systematic attempt by the government to pervert the legal institutions in Poland.Cyclefree said:
If it is saying that then that is a process failure which could, I imagine, be cured e.g. by removing the judges lawfully and appointing the replacements lawfully. Even here there is a process by which judges can be removed - even if it is very very rarely used.williamglenn said:
More importantly, isn't it saying that the previous judges have been unlawfully removed?Cyclefree said:
I am not a Polish lawyer. With that caveat:-
- all the first bullet point is saying that the new judges must be lawfully selected. That's a process issue.
It's as if Trump got elected and then tried to remove the Supreme Court judges he didn't like and replace them with his picks.
If following EU rules is important then this principle must be applied to all EU states equally and not just to those states with governments which the EU Commission doesn't approve of. Unfortunately, as we have seen, some EU states find it very easy indeed to ignore EU rules without so much as a peep from the Commission.
EU law is not equal for all - and this is - or ought to be - a fundamental value.
As such it's a judgment whether all of it put together constitutes a "systemic threat to the rule of law" The Commission presumably believes the Polish threat to be much greater than any previous case.
The Commission do set out a long list of things they object to here
If I were a Pole I would be worried about this. The EU claims to be an institution that promotes the rule of law and it is a fundamental requirement for membership. So I think it can legitimately be concerned about major lapses amongst member states. At this point it's a case to be answered.0 -
It is wrong that it is so hard in the US to convict police officers of misconduct, but cases against at least 4 of the officers in the Freddie Gray incident should never have reached indictment, let alone trial. A classic case of prosecuting for political purposes. Sad, it undermines both the police and the rule of law.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-369044090 -
Mr. Evershed, the EU setting tariffs does not appear to be Brexitus Maximus.0
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Clearly you don't believe in democracy but in elected dictatorship.MaxPB said:And if the Polish people who just elected the government to make these changes think they have gone too far they are free to elect a different government to reverse said changes. Democracy in action. You europhiles disgust me.
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I love the way the pic of Osborne eating one of their burgers comes out every time there is a story about them.MaxPB said:
Amazing. I might start eating there again!TheWhiteRabbit said:Check Twitter's #boycottbyron and be amazed...
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My daughter has worked two zero hours contracts, both of which suited her very well. Exclusive zero hours contracts are terrible, but I believe they've already been banned.TheWhiteRabbit said:
He does realise that's worse right?Tissue_Price said:The trouble with fighting Corbyn on policies is that (a) it's a category error: as Glen O'Hara points out, this election is about identity; and (b) you end up with:
https://twitter.com/youngvulgarian/status/758313023270453248
Under a zero hours contract, an employee is (at least notionally) free to decline any offer of work. If they had a one hour contract, then their employer could use that one hour to guarantee that the worker were compelled to waste their own time.0 -
Also today:MTimT said:It is wrong that it is so hard in the US to convict police officers of misconduct, but cases against at least 4 of the officers in the Freddie Gray incident should never have reached indictment, let alone trial. A classic case of prosecuting for political purposes. Sad, it undermines both the police and the rule of law.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36904409
Danny Shaw @DannyShawBBC · 21m21 minutes ago
BREAKING: Misconduct case against 3 policemen accused of racially abusing black firefighter has collapsed 5 years after original incident.
Danny Shaw @DannyShawBBC · 21m21 minutes ago
BBC News has been told that "no evidence" was offered against the 3 policemen after serious problems emerged with the IPCC investigation0 -
For those wanting some light terrorist relief:
https://twitter.com/GodfreyElfwick/status/715164558986518528
Edited extra bit: worth seeing the comment to which he's replying. In Latin, the chap's name would be Betwettius Hangwringius Guardianistar.0 -
Yes, not much in the way of meaningful negotiation on any trade deals can be done until it becomes clear what the UK-EU relationship is going to be. In the meantime, we can start building relationships and exploring issues, but that's about it.David_Evershed said:...
Liam Fox wants to be outside the EU customs union and free to negotiate UK terms with non EU countries.
The US says it needs to know which it is before it can start trade talks with the UK. ...0 -
Isn't the SNP the Real Scottish Labour Party?malcolmg said:
Back to a real Scottish Labour party. The clowns will be ousted at some point and a real Scottish Labour party formed.grabcocque said:
When the SNP's popularity does start to wane -- and it can only defy political gravity for so long -- where do you think SNP votes will go?malcolmg said:
LOL, how delusional can you get and that from a handful of people.grabcocque said:
It seems to be pretty much unarguable now that the Tories are the party on the march in Scotland, and are best placed to hoover up the SNP when their arrogance and incompetence finally smashes them on the rocks.malcolmg said:
Tory fanboys wetting their pants on a subsampleTheScreamingEagles said:
Not quite half the SNP score, but next year's Scottish council elections are going to be fun.CarlottaVance said:Scottish Tory Surge Klaxon
Westminster voting intention (Scotland n=154)
Con: 23
Lab: 11
LibD: 3
UKIP: 6
SNP: 53
I know its a subsample, but have the Tories ever been more than double Labour (and more than half the SNP(!)) before?
Still can't get over those Scottish YouGov leader ratings from yesterday0 -
Ed's suggestion of a right to a permanent contract of some sort was a more interesting line to consider, although not without its problems.John_M said:
My daughter has worked two zero hours contracts, both of which suited her very well. Exclusive zero hours contracts are terrible, but I believe they've already been banned.TheWhiteRabbit said:
He does realise that's worse right?Tissue_Price said:The trouble with fighting Corbyn on policies is that (a) it's a category error: as Glen O'Hara points out, this election is about identity; and (b) you end up with:
https://twitter.com/youngvulgarian/status/758313023270453248
Under a zero hours contract, an employee is (at least notionally) free to decline any offer of work. If they had a one hour contract, then their employer could use that one hour to guarantee that the worker were compelled to waste their own time.
0 -
"Labour leadership hopeful Owen Smith says he would introduce a wealth tax on the richest 1% in society to fund the NHS and tackle inequality in Britain. Mr Smith - who is challenging leader Jeremy Corbyn - said the "equality-busting" move would raise £3bn a year."
I assume he means "inequality-busting"...!0 -
Oh dear, desperate confusion here. There is no way the UK will staying the customs union, whatever version of Brexit is chosen. The customs union is one of the most objectionable parts of the EU - all Brexiteers agree on that.David_Evershed said:Liam Fox is pushing for the UK to be outside an EU customs union whilst number 10 wants to keep options open.
The non EU Turkey is in the EU customs union which gives it some advantages about access and paperwork in the EU.
However, those inside the custom union have to apply EU tariffs to imports from those countries outside the customs union.
Liam Fox wants to be outside the EU customs union and free to negotiate UK terms with non EU countries.
The US says it needs to know which it is before it can start trade talks with the UK.
See https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/economy/business-regulation/news/77695/no-10-forced-clarify-liam-fox-comments-post-brexit0 -
"Yes, hypothetically speaking we'd be happy to offer a trade deal whereby you concede on all the points that are important to us, and in return we'll take good care of your friend Adam."Richard_Nabavi said:
Yes, not much in the way of meaningful negotiation on any trade deals can be done until it becomes clear what the UK-EU relationship is going to be. In the meantime, we can start building relationships and exploring issues, but that's about it.David_Evershed said:...
Liam Fox wants to be outside the EU customs union and free to negotiate UK terms with non EU countries.
The US says it needs to know which it is before it can start trade talks with the UK. ...0 -
There would be no point in leaving if we stayed in the customs union tbh.runnymede said:
Oh dear, desperate confusion here. There is no way the UK will staying the customs union, whatever version of Brexit is chosen. The customs union is one of the most objectionable parts of the EU - all Brexiteers agree on that.David_Evershed said:Liam Fox is pushing for the UK to be outside an EU customs union whilst number 10 wants to keep options open.
The non EU Turkey is in the EU customs union which gives it some advantages about access and paperwork in the EU.
However, those inside the custom union have to apply EU tariffs to imports from those countries outside the customs union.
Liam Fox wants to be outside the EU customs union and free to negotiate UK terms with non EU countries.
The US says it needs to know which it is before it can start trade talks with the UK.
See https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/economy/business-regulation/news/77695/no-10-forced-clarify-liam-fox-comments-post-brexit0 -
SkyNews
A ban on Russian track & field athletes from #Rio2016 will not be overturned, IAAF president Sebastian Coe has ruled https://t.co/QnHFKuXKTE0 -
Fox is right on this one. Without the right to drop tariffs, we lose most of the economic advantages of leaving while still bearing most of the disadvantages.David_Evershed said:Liam Fox is pushing for the UK to be outside an EU customs union whilst number 10 wants to keep options open.
The non EU Turkey is in the EU customs union which gives it some advantages about access and paperwork in the EU.
However, those inside the custom union have to apply EU tariffs to imports from those countries outside the customs union.
Liam Fox wants to be outside the EU customs union and free to negotiate UK terms with non EU countries.
The US says it needs to know which it is before it can start trade talks with the UK.
See https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/economy/business-regulation/news/77695/no-10-forced-clarify-liam-fox-comments-post-brexit0 -
There is not a hope that a wealth tax would raise that amount. So it is a sense-busting claimTheWhiteRabbit said:"Labour leadership hopeful Owen Smith says he would introduce a wealth tax on the richest 1% in society to fund the NHS and tackle inequality in Britain. Mr Smith - who is challenging leader Jeremy Corbyn - said the "equality-busting" move would raise £3bn a year."
I assume he means "inequality-busting"...!
Plus £3billion would make precious little difference to the scale of the problems in the NHS
So it is just classic lefty virtue signalling.0 -
Possibly - but it would also presumably mean that Mr Fox's job would disappear? So he isn't perhaps the best person to give an impartial view!runnymede said:
Oh dear, desperate confusion here. There is no way the UK will staying the customs union, whatever version of Brexit is chosen. The customs union is one of the most objectionable parts of the EU - all Brexiteers agree on that.David_Evershed said:Liam Fox is pushing for the UK to be outside an EU customs union whilst number 10 wants to keep options open.
The non EU Turkey is in the EU customs union which gives it some advantages about access and paperwork in the EU.
However, those inside the custom union have to apply EU tariffs to imports from those countries outside the customs union.
Liam Fox wants to be outside the EU customs union and free to negotiate UK terms with non EU countries.
The US says it needs to know which it is before it can start trade talks with the UK.
See https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/economy/business-regulation/news/77695/no-10-forced-clarify-liam-fox-comments-post-brexit0 -
I know, Mr. Glenn. I have been greatly saddened by the number of people on this site (from both sides of the original debate) who chuck around "EEA/EFTA" or "EFTA/EEA" without seemingly having any idea of what either of those two bodies are about, what their rules are or actually anything about either.williamglenn said:
Tell that to all the Brexiters on here who want the EEA option yesterday.HurstLlama said:
I should of thought that was a statement of bleedin' obviousJohn_M said:Missed this from May earlier:
"“I’m looking at this with an open mind,” Mrs May said. “I think we should be developing the model that suits the United Kingdom and the European Union. Not adopting, necessarily, a model that is on the shelf already.”
To my mind there are two cardinal points.
1. A deal designed for three very small economies (EEA) will obviously not be suitable for the UK. Even Switzerland wouldn't go for it.
2. The UK has to be prepared to walk away from the table and revert to WTO rules. In any negotiation if you are not prepared to walk away then you are not negotiating you are begging. (Personally, I would be happy to go WTO as our default position).0 -
Keep your disgust to yourself.MaxPB said:
And if the Polish people who just elected the government to make these changes think they have gone too far they are free to elect a different government to reverse said changes. Democracy in action. You europhiles disgust me.FF43 said:
I think they imply it goes beyond a single point of failure, but is a systematic attempt by the government to pervert the legal institutions in Poland.Cyclefree said:
If it is saying that then that is a process failure which could, I imagine, be cured e.g. by removing the judges lawfully and appointing the replacements lawfully. Even here there is a process by which judges can be removed - even if it is very very rarely used.williamglenn said:
More importantly, isn't it saying that the previous judges have been unlawfully removed?Cyclefree said:
I am not a Polish lawyer. With that caveat:-
- all the first bullet point is saying that the new judges must be lawfully selected. That's a process issue.
It's as if Trump got elected and then tried to remove the Supreme Court judges he didn't like and replace them with his picks.
If following EU rules is important then this principle must be applied to all EU states equally and not just to those states with governments which the EU Commission doesn't approve of. Unfortunately, as we have seen, some EU states find it very easy indeed to ignore EU rules without so much as a peep from the Commission.
EU law is not equal for all - and this is - or ought to be - a fundamental value.
As such it's a judgment whether all of it put together constitutes a "systemic threat to the rule of law" The Commission presumably believes the Polish threat to be much greater than any previous case.
The Commission do set out a long list of things they object to here
If I were a Pole I would be worried about this. The EU claims to be an institution that promotes the rule of law and it is a fundamental requirement for membership. So I think it can legitimately be concerned about major lapses amongst member states. At this point it's a case to be answered.
Ultimately Poles and anyone else can do whatever they like. I doubt, actually, they gave their government a mandate to act unconstitutionally and to undermine their own system of justice but that's up to them at the end of the day. But if you are a member of any institution you sign up to the rules. If you don't follow them you are sanctioned or expelled.0 -
Just re-read your post and ponder how silly it is.IanB2 said:
Possibly - but it would also presumably mean that Mr Fox's job would disappear? So he isn't perhaps the best person to give an impartial view!runnymede said:
Oh dear, desperate confusion here. There is no way the UK will staying the customs union, whatever version of Brexit is chosen. The customs union is one of the most objectionable parts of the EU - all Brexiteers agree on that.David_Evershed said:Liam Fox is pushing for the UK to be outside an EU customs union whilst number 10 wants to keep options open.
The non EU Turkey is in the EU customs union which gives it some advantages about access and paperwork in the EU.
However, those inside the custom union have to apply EU tariffs to imports from those countries outside the customs union.
Liam Fox wants to be outside the EU customs union and free to negotiate UK terms with non EU countries.
The US says it needs to know which it is before it can start trade talks with the UK.
See https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/economy/business-regulation/news/77695/no-10-forced-clarify-liam-fox-comments-post-brexit0 -
-
True, most of the London Labour mob are now SNPDavid_Evershed said:
Isn't the SNP the Real Scottish Labour Party?malcolmg said:
Back to a real Scottish Labour party. The clowns will be ousted at some point and a real Scottish Labour party formed.grabcocque said:
When the SNP's popularity does start to wane -- and it can only defy political gravity for so long -- where do you think SNP votes will go?malcolmg said:
LOL, how delusional can you get and that from a handful of people.grabcocque said:
It seems to be pretty much unarguable now that the Tories are the party on the march in Scotland, and are best placed to hoover up the SNP when their arrogance and incompetence finally smashes them on the rocks.malcolmg said:
Tory fanboys wetting their pants on a subsampleTheScreamingEagles said:
Not quite half the SNP score, but next year's Scottish council elections are going to be fun.CarlottaVance said:Scottish Tory Surge Klaxon
Westminster voting intention (Scotland n=154)
Con: 23
Lab: 11
LibD: 3
UKIP: 6
SNP: 53
I know its a subsample, but have the Tories ever been more than double Labour (and more than half the SNP(!)) before?
Still can't get over those Scottish YouGov leader ratings from yesterday0 -
Quite a brave decision by Seb to be fair.PlatoSaid said:SkyNews
A ban on Russian track & field athletes from #Rio2016 will not be overturned, IAAF president Sebastian Coe has ruled https://t.co/QnHFKuXKTE
Hope he checks his tea...0 -
Are there any Irish implications to leaving it?runnymede said:
Oh dear, desperate confusion here. There is no way the UK will staying the customs union, whatever version of Brexit is chosen. The customs union is one of the most objectionable parts of the EU - all Brexiteers agree on that.David_Evershed said:Liam Fox is pushing for the UK to be outside an EU customs union whilst number 10 wants to keep options open.
The non EU Turkey is in the EU customs union which gives it some advantages about access and paperwork in the EU.
However, those inside the custom union have to apply EU tariffs to imports from those countries outside the customs union.
Liam Fox wants to be outside the EU customs union and free to negotiate UK terms with non EU countries.
The US says it needs to know which it is before it can start trade talks with the UK.
See https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/economy/business-regulation/news/77695/no-10-forced-clarify-liam-fox-comments-post-brexit
Cant think why else staying in it would even be suggested0 -
Are there any Muslim countries that are
a - prosperous and successful
b - relatively non corrupt0 -
I love the article: "one of the capital's fastest growing airports".PlatoSaid said:
Given there are (at a most) five airports that can claim to serve the capital, that's a wonderfully absurd boast.0 -
If you add relatively to a then Indonesia?Blue_rog said:Are there any Muslim countries that are
a - prosperous and successful
b - relatively non corrupt0 -
Suitcase explosion in Germany. No reported causalities.
Edit - suitcase apparently packed with aerosol cans.
All these security alerts in germany & France, my school boy level foreign languages are improving at a rapid rate.0 -
Rwanda is an interesting case, which also had very close links to France. However the French connection became tainted during the genocide and the new government set about breaking its historic links with France; joining the Commonwealth was a part of that strategy. They also set about changing the European language in use from French to English (the local language not being spoken anywhere much outside the country). I was there in 2010 when they dramatically changed the language of all teaching in primary schools to English, over the whole country, at the beginning of one term!Sunil_Prasannan said:
Rwanda and Mozambique are two non-former-British Colonies wot joined. Rwanda was German, then Belgian, and Mozambique was Portuguese.Paul_Bedfordshire said:
Apparently France seriously wanted to join the UK in 1956.MTimT said:
I think Cyprus joined the Commonwealth in 1961 shortly after independence in 1960. Malta likewise in 1964.TheWhiteRabbit said:
East Germany didn't really join the EU, it joined West Germany. So it wouldn't really have joined the Commonwealth :PSunil_Prasannan said:
Alternate history timeline - European nations joining the Commonwealth:Paul_Bedfordshire said:
Thank God we voted Brexit. And still they don't get it.MaxPB said:
Those changes haven't been made, slap them with single market violations if they are.rcs1000 said:
Don't some of the plans - such as preventing foreigners from owning media outlets in Poland - fall foul of their treaty obligations?
What has happened is the Polish government were elected with a majority and decided that the last government had acted without honour by appointing three judges to their constitutional court as they left office. The new government hace blocked their ascent and nominated their own judges who are rather more Eurosceptic. The EU has decided this is the hill it wants to die on.
I hope the Poles rebuke them for so arrogantly pretending to have such powers.
Maybe what we need to do is set up a Commonwealth single market and invite countries like Poland, Denmark etc. to leave the EU and join the Commonwealth.
1973 Ireland, Denmark, Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg, France, Italy, West Germany,
1981 Greece
1986 Spain, Portugal
1990 East Germany and Berlin
1995 Austria, Finland, Sweden
2004 Malta, Cyprus, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Slovenia
2007 Bulgaria, Romania
2013 Croatia
Apparently also Algeria are applying to join the Commonwealth and France are fuming about it0 -
It's probably just an ordinary exploding suitcase.FrancisUrquhart said:Suitcase explosion in Germany. No reported causalities.
0 -
Arch prat Piers Morgan has joined the Putin love in:
Piers Morgan @piersmorgan
I'd feel very comfortable with a U.S. president who regularly dines with Putin.
shina balogun @Govshina
@piersmorgan God is on Hillary's side. Mr Trrump is a devil who wants to dine with a dictator like Putin0 -
Depends which compromise you want to make. It might be a way of minimising the economic disruption without having to concede freedom of movement, so from that point of view it could be quite attractive politically.MaxPB said:There would be no point in leaving if we stayed in the customs union tbh.
Not great for services, of course, but you can't have everything.0 -
But the point is, the unelected commission have unilaterally decided that Poland are breaking the rules. Who are they to make the decision? As ever, democracy falls by the wayside at the altar of the EU for you europhiles. Thankfully there aren't many of you. Most of the sensible remain types can see the more clearly than ever what the EU is. I think I'll hold all of you in the same contempt that the EU holds for democracy.FF43 said:
Keep your disgust to yourself.
Ultimately Poles and anyone else can do whatever they like. I doubt, actually, they gave their government a mandate to act unconstitutionally and to undermine their own system of justice but that's up to them at the end of the day. But if you are a member of any institution you sign up to the rules. If you don't follow them you are sanctioned or expelled.0 -
I like that quote apparently from an unidentified senior FCO official who told a Financial Times journalist to imagine that Piers Morgan had just been appointed editor of the FT, in answer to a question about their reaction to Boris.Casino_Royale said:Arch prat Piers Morgan has joined the Putin love in:
Piers Morgan @piersmorgan
I'd feel very comfortable with a U.S. president who regularly dines with Putin.
shina balogun @Govshina
@piersmorgan God is on Hillary's side. Mr Trrump is a devil who wants to dine with a dictator like Putin0 -
Actually the Commission are saying the Court has ruled against the Polish government and unless Poland respects the Courts decision then the EU could apply sanctions.MaxPB said:
But the point is, the unelected commission have unilaterally decided that Poland are breaking the rules. Who are they to make the decision? As ever, democracy falls by the wayside at the altar of the EU for you europhiles. Thankfully there aren't many of you. Most of the sensible remain types can see the more clearly than ever what the EU is. I think I'll hold all of you in the same contempt that the EU holds for democracy.FF43 said:
Keep your disgust to yourself.
Ultimately Poles and anyone else can do whatever they like. I doubt, actually, they gave their government a mandate to act unconstitutionally and to undermine their own system of justice but that's up to them at the end of the day. But if you are a member of any institution you sign up to the rules. If you don't follow them you are sanctioned or expelled.0 -
I suspect the customs union, such as Turkey has, is a straw man on the part of Liam Fox. AFAILK no-one serious was suggesting it and it wouldn't be part of an EEA arrangement. So Mr Fox can present it as a totem to be knocked down to show how Macho Brexit he is. Then he can settle on whatever fudge has been agreed by the government.runnymede said:
Oh dear, desperate confusion here. There is no way the UK will staying the customs union, whatever version of Brexit is chosen. The customs union is one of the most objectionable parts of the EU - all Brexiteers agree on that.David_Evershed said:Liam Fox is pushing for the UK to be outside an EU customs union whilst number 10 wants to keep options open.
The non EU Turkey is in the EU customs union which gives it some advantages about access and paperwork in the EU.
However, those inside the custom union have to apply EU tariffs to imports from those countries outside the customs union.
Liam Fox wants to be outside the EU customs union and free to negotiate UK terms with non EU countries.
The US says it needs to know which it is before it can start trade talks with the UK.
See https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/economy/business-regulation/news/77695/no-10-forced-clarify-liam-fox-comments-post-brexit
Alternatively Mr Fox genuinely doesn't know the difference, despite being the man in charge. This too is possible.0 -
Agree completely on both points, especially 2.HurstLlama said:
I know, Mr. Glenn. I have been greatly saddened by the number of people on this site (from both sides of the original debate) who chuck around "EEA/EFTA" or "EFTA/EEA" without seemingly having any idea of what either of those two bodies are about, what their rules are or actually anything about either.williamglenn said:
Tell that to all the Brexiters on here who want the EEA option yesterday.HurstLlama said:
I should of thought that was a statement of bleedin' obviousJohn_M said:Missed this from May earlier:
"“I’m looking at this with an open mind,” Mrs May said. “I think we should be developing the model that suits the United Kingdom and the European Union. Not adopting, necessarily, a model that is on the shelf already.”
To my mind there are two cardinal points.
1. A deal designed for three very small economies (EEA) will obviously not be suitable for the UK. Even Switzerland wouldn't go for it.
2. The UK has to be prepared to walk away from the table and revert to WTO rules. In any negotiation if you are not prepared to walk away then you are not negotiating you are begging. (Personally, I would be happy to go WTO as our default position).
Indeed, I think our negotiating stance should be to ask for our absolute maximum, then gauge the EU reaction.
If it is reasonable, then continue negotiating. If, however, it is clear that there is any element of punishing the UK or giving the Eu will only give us something less than Canada got, we should simply walk then and there, leave the EU with immediate effect falling back on WTO rules, and only come back to the negotiating table once reality has sunk in with the EU to negotiate from a tabula rasa something that would make sense to both parties if we'd never been a member.0 -
Morris_Dancer said:
For those wanting some light terrorist relief:
ttps://twitter.com/GodfreyElfwick/status/715164558986518528
Edited extra bit: worth seeing the comment to which he's replying. In Latin, the chap's name would be Betwettius Hangwringius Guardianistar. 0 -
No. It's a real melange of religions. If it's anything it's Buddhist. Micro-states don't count, they can be used to prove anything. For example, Luxembourg is an example of a multi-cultural success story with 44.5% immigrants.Blue_rog said:0 -
I'm 99 % zero hours contracts existed under different names the entirety of my working life.John_M said:
My daughter has worked two zero hours contracts, both of which suited her very well. Exclusive zero hours contracts are terrible, but I believe they've already been banned.TheWhiteRabbit said:
He does realise that's worse right?Tissue_Price said:The trouble with fighting Corbyn on policies is that (a) it's a category error: as Glen O'Hara points out, this election is about identity; and (b) you end up with:
https://twitter.com/youngvulgarian/status/758313023270453248
Under a zero hours contract, an employee is (at least notionally) free to decline any offer of work. If they had a one hour contract, then their employer could use that one hour to guarantee that the worker were compelled to waste their own time.
For a small percentage of the population, they work perfectly well. Even with the numbers being stated, they come to a single figure percentage. And, as said, the more egregious sub-clauses should be monitored.
When Labour decided to run on that and the bedroom tax, you knew they had *nothing* in the locker. Nothing.0 -
My knowledge of German is non-existent. I can get by happily with French on Twitter, but these IS terrorists are being most inconsiderate!FrancisUrquhart said:Suitcase explosion in Germany. No reported causalities.
Edit - suitcase apparently packed with aerosol cans.
All these security alerts in germany & France, my school boy level foreign languages are improving at a rapid rate.0 -
-
-
The procedure is set out in the Treaty of Union that Poland is a signatory of. It can't object to the EU following its own procedures in applying the membership rules that Poland has agreed to.MaxPB said:
But the point is, the unelected commission have unilaterally decided that Poland are breaking the rules. Who are they to make the decision? As ever, democracy falls by the wayside at the altar of the EU for you europhiles. Thankfully there aren't many of you. Most of the sensible remain types can see the more clearly than ever what the EU is. I think I'll hold all of you in the same contempt that the EU holds for democracy.FF43 said:
Keep your disgust to yourself.
Ultimately Poles and anyone else can do whatever they like. I doubt, actually, they gave their government a mandate to act unconstitutionally and to undermine their own system of justice but that's up to them at the end of the day. But if you are a member of any institution you sign up to the rules. If you don't follow them you are sanctioned or expelled.
0 -
They are forecast to join the developed world based on economic factors in the near term. However, while Muslims are a majority at 60%, it has very sizable Indian and Chinese populations.Blue_rog said:0 -
GDP/capita of around 10,000 USD, so not too shabby.Blue_rog said:
I'm not sure how non-corrupt the country is though, in particular with regard to 1MDB!0 -
-
Yes, but the issue is only for goods and people at the land border between NI/EIRE. You could have customs checks for imports for the UK - and all exports - at all ports and airports in both and you can do quite a lot with countries of origin and destination checking at EIRE/UK posts and checking things weren't being illegitimately reexported. Or you treat NI as a special exclave - which it is in many ways already, plenty of UK companies offer deals 'not valid in NI' - and give different powers to the Stormont assembly. You can do benefit and employment checks quite easily in NI and immigration raid and spot checks. You could filter EU and UK passports differently with travel between the island of Ireland and the U.K. Mainland too etc.Paul_Bedfordshire said:
Are there any Irish implications to leaving it?runnymede said:
Oh dear, desperate confusion here. There is no way the UK will staying the customs union, whatever version of Brexit is chosen. The customs union is one of the most objectionable parts of the EU - all Brexiteers agree on that.David_Evershed said:Liam Fox is pushing for the UK to be outside an EU customs union whilst number 10 wants to keep options open.
The non EU Turkey is in the EU customs union which gives it some advantages about access and paperwork in the EU.
However, those inside the custom union have to apply EU tariffs to imports from those countries outside the customs union.
Liam Fox wants to be outside the EU customs union and free to negotiate UK terms with non EU countries.
The US says it needs to know which it is before it can start trade talks with the UK.
See https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/economy/business-regulation/news/77695/no-10-forced-clarify-liam-fox-comments-post-brexit
Cant think why else staying in it would even be suggested
I struggle to see how it'd affect capital and services - they already both have different currencies - and it's hard to smuggle an insurance policy.
Solutions can be found to these things.0 -
It's all going so well
Chris Mason BBC
Owen Smith accused of 'shameless exploitation' of Orgreave by ex miner John Dunn: https://t.co/YesEgxR6Lw0 -
It must be good fun writing BBC headlines.
Latest French atrocity ... "Two young Algerians shot dead leaving Church."
0 -
Well it's certainly true the media don't appear to understand the difference between the EEA and the customs union.FF43 said:
I suspect the customs union, such as Turkey has, is a straw man on the part of Liam Fox. AFAILK no-one serious was suggesting it and it wouldn't be part of an EEA arrangement. So Mr Fox can present it as a totem to be knocked down to show how Macho Brexit he is. Then he can settle on whatever fudge has been agreed by the government.runnymede said:
Oh dear, desperate confusion here. There is no way the UK will staying the customs union, whatever version of Brexit is chosen. The customs union is one of the most objectionable parts of the EU - all Brexiteers agree on that.David_Evershed said:Liam Fox is pushing for the UK to be outside an EU customs union whilst number 10 wants to keep options open.
The non EU Turkey is in the EU customs union which gives it some advantages about access and paperwork in the EU.
However, those inside the custom union have to apply EU tariffs to imports from those countries outside the customs union.
Liam Fox wants to be outside the EU customs union and free to negotiate UK terms with non EU countries.
The US says it needs to know which it is before it can start trade talks with the UK.
See https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/economy/business-regulation/news/77695/no-10-forced-clarify-liam-fox-comments-post-brexit
Alternatively Mr Fox genuinely doesn't know the difference, despite being the man in charge. This too is possible.
We've been debating this issue for many weeks now and the levels of ignorance remain absolutely staggering.
0 -
"McDonalds to create 5,000 new jobs because of Brexit"
http://www.itv.com/news/2016-07-27/mcdonalds-to-create-5-000-new-jobs-because-of-brexit/
"London City Airport expansion will create 1,600 airport jobs and potentially add £1.5 billion to the UK economy by 2025."
But blah blah blah Brexit end of the world etc etc etc0 -
PPP per/capita they're Poland/Hungary. That kind of ballpark.Blue_rog said:0 -
Guido
It's like Blairites sat round a table and said "We need someone new, someone untainted by government... What about a Welsh Alan Partridge?"0 -
Mr. Runnymede, the ignorance may be enormous, but staggering?
The media still don't know the difference between deficit and debt.0 -
Among the many things I've learned during EUref is that journalists are, for practical purposes, innumerate. Andrew Neil is one honourable exception.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Runnymede, the ignorance may be enormous, but staggering?
The media still don't know the difference between deficit and debt.0 -
Yes, that's correct. Most of them are just airheads.John_M said:
Among the many things I've learned during EUref is that journalists are, for practical purposes, innumerate. Andrew Neil is one honourable exception.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Runnymede, the ignorance may be enormous, but staggering?
The media still don't know the difference between deficit and debt.0 -
Yes, Fox is probably pencilling in his 'victories' now, fearful that he will be condemned as May's stooge and a sell-out when he inevitably fails to deliver all the expected red meat. My guess is that what Fox eventually manages to winkle from the EU will make Dave's 'deal' look like the sacking of Carthage in comparison.FF43 said:
I suspect the customs union, such as Turkey has, is a straw man on the part of Liam Fox. AFAILK no-one serious was suggesting it and it wouldn't be part of an EEA arrangement. So Mr Fox can present it as a totem to be knocked down to show how Macho Brexit he is. Then he can settle on whatever fudge has been agreed by the government.runnymede said:
Oh dear, desperate confusion here. There is no way the UK will staying the customs union, whatever version of Brexit is chosen. The customs union is one of the most objectionable parts of the EU - all Brexiteers agree on that.David_Evershed said:Liam Fox is pushing for the UK to be outside an EU customs union whilst number 10 wants to keep options open.
The non EU Turkey is in the EU customs union which gives it some advantages about access and paperwork in the EU.
However, those inside the custom union have to apply EU tariffs to imports from those countries outside the customs union.
Liam Fox wants to be outside the EU customs union and free to negotiate UK terms with non EU countries.
The US says it needs to know which it is before it can start trade talks with the UK.
See https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/economy/business-regulation/news/77695/no-10-forced-clarify-liam-fox-comments-post-brexit
Alternatively Mr Fox genuinely doesn't know the difference, despite being the man in charge. This too is possible.0 -
.@realDonaldTrump: "Russia, if you're listening, I hope you're able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing."0 -
The media, aside from a handful of very smart journalists (and it really is a handful), know very little.runnymede said:
Well it's certainly true the media don't appear to understand the difference between the EEA and the customs union.FF43 said:
I suspect the customs union, such as Turkey has, is a straw man on the part of Liam Fox. AFAILK no-one serious was suggesting it and it wouldn't be part of an EEA arrangement. So Mr Fox can present it as a totem to be knocked down to show how Macho Brexit he is. Then he can settle on whatever fudge has been agreed by the government.runnymede said:
Oh dear, desperate confusion here. There is no way the UK will staying the customs union, whatever version of Brexit is chosen. The customs union is one of the most objectionable parts of the EU - all Brexiteers agree on that.David_Evershed said:Liam Fox is pushing for the UK to be outside an EU customs union whilst number 10 wants to keep options open.
The non EU Turkey is in the EU customs union which gives it some advantages about access and paperwork in the EU.
However, those inside the custom union have to apply EU tariffs to imports from those countries outside the customs union.
Liam Fox wants to be outside the EU customs union and free to negotiate UK terms with non EU countries.
The US says it needs to know which it is before it can start trade talks with the UK.
See https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/economy/business-regulation/news/77695/no-10-forced-clarify-liam-fox-comments-post-brexit
Alternatively Mr Fox genuinely doesn't know the difference, despite being the man in charge. This too is possible.
We've been debating this issue for many weeks now and the levels of ignorance remain absolutely staggering.
That's why I come here.0 -
If you are right, May's Government will fall.Stark_Dawning said:
Yes, Fox is probably pencilling in his 'victories' now, fearful that he will be condemned as May's stooge and a sell-out when he inevitably fails to deliver all the expected red meat. My guess is that what Fox eventually manages to winkle from the EU will make Dave's 'deal' look like the sacking of Carthage in comparison.FF43 said:
I suspect the customs union, such as Turkey has, is a straw man on the part of Liam Fox. AFAILK no-one serious was suggesting it and it wouldn't be part of an EEA arrangement. So Mr Fox can present it as a totem to be knocked down to show how Macho Brexit he is. Then he can settle on whatever fudge has been agreed by the government.runnymede said:
Oh dear, desperate confusion here. There is no way the UK will staying the customs union, whatever version of Brexit is chosen. The customs union is one of the most objectionable parts of the EU - all Brexiteers agree on that.David_Evershed said:Liam Fox is pushing for the UK to be outside an EU customs union whilst number 10 wants to keep options open.
The non EU Turkey is in the EU customs union which gives it some advantages about access and paperwork in the EU.
However, those inside the custom union have to apply EU tariffs to imports from those countries outside the customs union.
Liam Fox wants to be outside the EU customs union and free to negotiate UK terms with non EU countries.
The US says it needs to know which it is before it can start trade talks with the UK.
See https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/economy/business-regulation/news/77695/no-10-forced-clarify-liam-fox-comments-post-brexit
Alternatively Mr Fox genuinely doesn't know the difference, despite being the man in charge. This too is possible.0 -
Most journalists are both innumerate, illogical and lazy about background research in my experience. But Andrew Neil always does his background research well.John_M said:
Among the many things I've learned during EUref is that journalists are, for practical purposes, innumerate. Andrew Neil is one honourable exception.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Runnymede, the ignorance may be enormous, but staggering?
The media still don't know the difference between deficit and debt.0 -
''But blah blah blah Brexit end of the world etc etc etc ''
Guido cites Deutsche Boerse decision to press ahead with LSE merger.
A deal the FT declared emphatically was 'dead' after Brexit.
A shame about the FT and the economist. Once great publications. Now?0 -
But Lib Dems doing well in local government byelections. It shows the local organisation is starting to improve. Opinion polls will follow, never fear.David_Evershed said:
Lib Dem revival is not shown by the polls. Lib Dems stuck at 8%.foxinsoxuk said:Fox jr and fellow students are becoming much more open to the LDs, in part because the fees generation has moved on, and fees are the new normal, but also they feel they have had their revenge in 2015. There is a lot of youth support for the LDs unreserved pro-Remain position and anti-Iraq war too.
It will not be a quick return to parliament, but may not be as far off as it seemed a year ago. Brexit and the seppuko of the Labour Party are having an effect.0 -
Whilst I don't wish to give the parliamentary Labour party any advice, I think they should try something else other than to forcibly unseat Corbyn. At the moment they are playing the Conservative's game, badly.0
