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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Syria: Whose Mandate?

SystemSystem Posts: 11,707
edited September 2013 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Syria: Whose Mandate?

Much of the debate surrounding potential military action in Syria has focussed on two aspects: what effect would such action have, and would it be lawful as things stand. In a sense, the two are linked in an unusual way. The normal reasons for intervening militarily are for one government to force a change of policy upon another, or to impose a settlement on an area.

Read the full story here


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    FluffyThoughtsFluffyThoughts Posts: 2,420
    edited September 2013
    Not Nigeria's...? :P

    Serious point: Feck this "imperialism" bull-crap. We should intervene because:

    a) We are drunken Engerlisch thugs who know what is right! [Gottit, or are you looking for a fight? Kant!]
    b) We are still the second world super-power (according to some obscure Chinese Defence Institute). [Google it!]
    c) It is the right thing to do!
    d) Ed is crap....

    We defeated slavery and - hopefully - will end FGM and sex-biased late abortions soon. Now who wants an argument...?
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,920
    edited September 2013
    I can't see there being any action on Syria, personally.

    Assad has carte blanche to gas his people and the brutal Putin looks like he is calling the shots of world affairs while America and Europe are in complete disarray.

    A sad outcome all round.

    But in better news the Aussie's are tearing up the progressive consensus - We'll watch these developments with great interest, I'm sure...
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    RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Lowest ALP vote since 1906...

    Others seem to be doing well. PUP in particular.

    Fracturing of Australian politics?
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,151
    Post-G20 Obama press conference on Syria:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbbBS3w6YSY#t=306
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,087
    Good article. Thanks, David.

    I wonder how much Hollande's keenness to get involved has been encouraged by the French intervention in Mali earlier in the year, which went rather swimmingly well and led to a peace treaty in June, and a possible return to democracy?

    Syria is very different to Mali, but it must have had some effect on his thinking.
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,920
    edited September 2013
    Can you imagine the reaction of Polly and The Guardian if someone like Tony Abbott won a majority here?

    They became hysterical at the prospect of Cameron becoming PM and Boris the Mayor of London - Imagine the meltdown we'd see if we had a REAL right-wing Conservative leader getting anywhere near power.

    Would be entertaining, LOL!
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,020
    Capricornica on a knife-edge:

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/federal-election-2013/guide/capr/
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    GIN1138 said:

    I can't see there being any action on Syria, personally.

    Assad has carte blanche to gas his people and the brutal Putin looks like he is calling the shots of world affairs while America and Europe are in complete disarray.

    Ed must be so proud.

    Blair got Iraq. He got Syria.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,058
    edited September 2013
    Nations always have and will decide what is their own business and come up with some justification that acts as a mandate, self appointment to the role of interfering in other nations is the normal way of things. I see no benefit to getting involved at this point (if we were going to it should have been much earlier when maybe it might have had a better chance of achieving a positive practical or moral outcome) but the self appointment thing is nothing unusual or even worrisome. If the UN backs something (or rather, the five permanent members back something) it might still be against the wishes of most of the planet's nations, so does that make it alright? It's arbitrary. Is intervening to remove a regime inherently worse than intervening in the form of propping up a regime that might or might not otherwise fall? Did the UN say its ok to side with a regime on one side of a civil war, and thus having considerable influence and responsibility for what is going on, but intervening for rebels in a more direct fashion is automatically illegal? If illegal, is it any worse than intervening and supporting the government?

    As I say, I don't see how getting involved in this conflict at this point will help them, us or the world, but I don't really think arguments about mandate or imperial ambitions or anything are helpful or even that relevant. Nations decide for themselves what is their business (and I would say that the affairs of the world are everyone's business, be you USA or Kiribati or St Kitts and Nevis), and act if they have the will to do so, and will then come up with a reason why their acting is ok, and if people agree they say it is legal (be it duty to protect or whatever) and if they don't agree they will always say it is illegal. You can bet your money if the UN did approve regime change somewhere those most in opposition (not least the people being removed) would say that alone does not make it legal. So I don't see the point in arguing legality or who has a mandate all that much as no-one will ever agree on it, and it is only ever down to who is willing to act, not what is right. It's just about whether the outcome can justify the cost. Extremely hard to predict or judge, and often made incorrectly no doubt, but arguments about mandates and international law are just smokescreens for the same old thousands of years game of international relations and the motivations and justifications therein, so what's the point? Apparently we and our opponents just don't like to be blunt in how we couch our intentions and reasons, and are always looking to sway world opinion with specious reasonings.
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,920
    Scott_P said:

    GIN1138 said:

    I can't see there being any action on Syria, personally.

    Assad has carte blanche to gas his people and the brutal Putin looks like he is calling the shots of world affairs while America and Europe are in complete disarray.

    Ed must be so proud.

    I wonder what Ed will say when Assad launches the next Sarin attack? He must know he'll get all the blame, not just from the government but from the Americans and the French....

    Talk about a patsy!
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,171
    edited September 2013
    GIN1138 Had David Davis won in 2010 his government would basically have been the same as Abbott's, anti-gay marriage, anti immigration, sceptical of climate change, pro tax cuts and spending cuts. But for one poor speech at the 2005 Tory conference we could have had an Abbott as PM!
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,171
    RodCrosby - Australia has AV and no Green Party in 1906, ALP doing better than forecast, 53-47 and almost 60 seats is no massacre, and Rudd has held his seat
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    anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    HYUFD said:

    GIN1138 Had David Davis won in 2010 his government would basically have been the same as Abbott's, anti-gay marriage, anti immigration, sceptical of climate change, pro tax cuts and spending cuts. But for one poor speech at the 2005 Tory conference we could have had an Abbott as PM!

    ..and the Australian Liberals might have been stuck with Cameroons:

    "Go back four years: hard as it may be to believe today, it was the Liberal party that was in a state of disarray after the unsatisfactory leadership periods of Brendan Nelson and Malcolm Turnbull. Spooked by the seemingly never-ending popularity of Mr Rudd, the Coalition MPs and senators tore themselves apart attempting to create distance from the Howard era; embracing an unconvincing and erroneous centre-left positioning that John Stone wittily labelled in these pages as ‘Ruddbullism’. Unimpressed by this pandering to the inner-city elites, voters fled and the LNP dropped dangerously low in the polls."

    http://www.spectator.co.uk/australia/australia-leading-article/9001331/tonys-time/
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,920
    HYUFD said:

    GIN1138 Had David Davis won in 2010 his government would basically have been the same as Abbott's, anti-gay marriage, anti immigration, sceptical of climate change, pro tax cuts and spending cuts. But for one poor speech at the 2005 Tory conference we could have had an Abbott as PM!

    So near, but so far...

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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,171
    Of course, Australia's Cameron, Malcolm Turnbull, was ousted as Liberal leader by Abbott, if Abbott's poll rating dips he could oust him back (Turnbull more popular at the polls and speaking on ABC now)
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-09-07/election-day-live/4942328
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    GIN1138 said:


    I wonder what Ed will say when Assad launches the next Sarin attack?

    He will demand the action that he voted against to the cheers of his backbench lemmings.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,171
    AnotherDave Indeed, see below
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    FluffyThoughtsFluffyThoughts Posts: 2,420
    edited September 2013
    Game-over in Oz. Now they need to fund those dozen super-plus SSKs that they keep talking about....

    EtA: ALP [Political party; not Seth's cousin.] == Australia's Test Cricket Team. :)
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,745
    So the lesson from Down Under: The next Conservative leader needs to look good in budgie smugglers!
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,020
    Former Speaker Peter Slipper is polling 1.5% in his own constituency as an independent:

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/federal-election-2013/guide/fish/
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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    edited September 2013
    Syria.. its popcorn time.. Shit will happen..look at the combatants.. get your body count clicker out and settle back,bye kids..
    Nice one Ed..
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    WTF?

    Police chiefs in England and Wales paid £660,952 for licences so staff could listen to music in offices in the past year, a Freedom of Information request has revealed.

    The highest expenditure came from the Metropolitan Police which paid £246,297.

    Four forces paid nothing, while 17 spent more than £10,000.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-23984386

    The Performing Right Society (PRS) collects the fees and pays royalties to artists.

    The statistics were obtained by Robert Foulds, the clerk of Bramley Parish Council in Rotherham, South Yorkshire.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,171
    SandyRentool Not really, Abbott has not done as well as some had forecast and Malcolm Turnbull (basically the Aussie Cameron) would have won the landslide Abbott does not seem to have done tonight
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    maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,391
    HYUFD said:

    SandyRentool Not really, Abbott has not done as well as some had forecast and Malcolm Turnbull (basically the Aussie Cameron) would have won the landslide Abbott does not seem to have done tonight

    Yep, Coalition on course to win 89 - 57. The story here is definitely a poor performance from Abbot.

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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited September 2013
    I really must buy myself a copy for Christmas http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/content/beancounters-hack-bid-expose-scribe-word-secrets

    "Here are a few of Axegrinder’s favourites from the first category:

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    FluffyThoughtsFluffyThoughts Posts: 2,420
    It's really ironic:

    In Oz the "Liberal" Party is a Millsian Tory party that follows the philosophy of Adam Smith.

    In the UK the "Liberal" Party is a clone of social-interventionism that is more akin to the name-sake Russian thugocracy of old men coming to terms with their rebellious sons. Spicks-and-spams....

    :young-turks:
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,171
    oreton 1.4% swing to ALP, ALP forecast to hold. Lilley 1.2% swing, ALP hold. Griffith 4.5% swing, Kevin Rudd holds. Forde swing 1.7% LNP retain. Petrie swing 2.6% swing, too lose to call, LNP ahead. Capricornia 3.9%, too close to call, LNP ahead. Fairfax swing 8.8% to Palmer's party, Palmer likely to win (could also get a Senate seat)
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    I think Tom Watson and Eddie Izzard must get behind Labour GE2015.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,087
    Possibly topical for this thread: the Egyptian army has started a big assault on militants in the Sinai.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-24001833

    It would be interesting to know who the Egyptian army define as 'militants'.

    The whole region's going to hell in a handcart. I'm now near the stage of thinking that there'll be a regional conflagration.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,171
    Maarsh Even tighter than that, ABC projection ALP 59 LNP 87 Greens 1 3 Others

    Abbott won, so not really a poor performance, but certainly not great either. He was a brilliant opposition leader, PM a different story, and the focus and pressure now moves from Rudd to him
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    maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,391
    HYUFD said:

    Maarsh Even tighter than that, ABC projection ALP 59 LNP 87 Greens 1 3 Others

    No, it doesn't.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/federal-election-2013/results/
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Ben Page, Ipsos MORI @benatipsosmori
    We may be a "small island" but London is about 20 times more popular than Moscow - including among Russians Mr Putin bit.ly/15DVypV
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,171
    edited September 2013
    FluffyThoughts With the Coalition's austerity Clegg's Liberals more economically liberal, but it varies, just as UK's Liberals centre/centre-left, Australia's Liberals centre-right, Canada's Liberal Party centre-left, Germany's Liberal Party centre-right, Japan's Liberals centre-right, Sweden, France and Italy centrist Liberal parties. In US a 'liberal' is centre-left
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    MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    HYUFD said:

    oreton 1.4% swing to ALP, ALP forecast to hold. Lilley 1.2% swing, ALP hold. Griffith 4.5% swing, Kevin Rudd holds. Forde swing 1.7% LNP retain. Petrie swing 2.6% swing, too lose to call, LNP ahead. Capricornia 3.9%, too close to call, LNP ahead. Fairfax swing 8.8% to Palmer's party, Palmer likely to win (could also get a Senate seat)

    So far the Senate has 3 Palmer United candidates elected , 3 Greens , 1 Sex Party , 1 Help End Marijuana Prohibition Party , 1 One Nation Party and 1 Liberal Democratic Party with 2 states to come
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    RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    HYUFD said:

    RodCrosby - Australia has AV and no Green Party in 1906, ALP doing better than forecast, 53-47 and almost 60 seats is no massacre, and Rudd has held his seat

    I am right. It looks like the Effective Number of Parties (1st preferences) will exceed 4.0 for the first time ever.

    AV (and the 2PP) of course reinforces the appearance of two-party dominance, but in reality this election demonstrates the two-party system has never been weaker...
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,020
    10 votes separate the candidates in Petrie with 74.5% counted:

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/federal-election-2013/guide/petr/
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    anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    CCHQ seem to be trying to sabotage the Conservative Renewal Conference.

    "I understand from unofficial sources that while No10 is briefing that the en masse pull-out is due to the high-profile involvement of Windsor MP Adam Afriyie, the real reason for the sudden boycott is that the conference is open to non-party members. That is to say, CCHQ/No10 are concerned that the Conservative Renewal conference is nothing but an opportunity for Ukip entryism, for it is the presence of Ukip members which is the apparent cause of anxiety."

    http://conservativehome.blogs.com/platform/2013/09/adrian-hilton-why-number-10-is-wrong-to-pull-ministers-from-the-windsor-tory-renewal-conference.html
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,171
    RodCrosby Agree, both the Greens and Palmer (in Queensland) picking up around 10% and a seat each
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,171
    Palmer looking like he could be a combination of Australia's Farage/Jimmy Goldsmith.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,171
    Here comes Kevin. Rudd conceding now!
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-09-07/election-day-live/4942328
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    maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,391
    Rudd doing his best Gordon forced smile impression; I thought he was having a stroke at one point.
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    maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,391
    Am I looking at the wrong results? ABC have them losing 2 in Queensland.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,020
    I'm waiting until at least 70% of the vote is counted before filling in the Australian election target list:

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At91c3wX1Wu5dERmb2NsbmpUNmlyOHplOTNOTE9iZVE#gid=0
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    maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,391
    Now 90-56 on ABC. HYUFD, please let me know when you think the win is sufficiently adequate for Abbott to feel like maybe this is good.
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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Ashcroft thinks Assad did it...
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    AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,869
    Excellent article, David - many thanks.

    Intervention on the grounds of our own view of what is unacceptable needs careful thinking through.

    Our own society has many features which other societies find unacceptable. Are we prepared to hear the same arguments used back at us in justification of military action against us, or would we consider that unjustifiable interference?
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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    AnneJP.. When was the last time we gassed 1400 people with circa 400 being infants..if we had then they should certainly be giving us the once over..
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    GarethofthevaleGarethofthevale Posts: 503
    What a weird concession speech by Rudd. Normally you are supposed to show a bit of humility and promise to listen to the message of the voters. While Rudd's speech seems to be "aren't we all wonderful" with a tiny bit about losing. I wish he'd get to the point!
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    maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,391
    91-55.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Matthew Lesh @matthewlesh
    When you see Labor achieve it’s lowest vote in history at 33%, you have to think the light on the hill has turned to a match stick - Robb
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    FluffyThoughtsFluffyThoughts Posts: 2,420
    edited September 2013
    Coalition now predicted to win 91*: So Abbot did bad HYUFD...?

    * ABC news.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,171
    edited September 2013
    Maarsh - Anything close to 60 is a better than expected result for the ALP without question.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,171
    Garethvale - Rudd not contesting leadership, says his aim to maintain ALP as a fighting force which he has done. Conceded graciously to Abbott at the beginning
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    maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,391
    HYUFD - I am talking about projections too. I'm just surprised you kept quoting an old projection and didn't update the thread when it moved away from the direction you are ramping.
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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    Plato said:

    I think Tom Watson and Eddie Izzard must get behind Labour GE2015.

    Not a good idea - They'll only argue as to whose turn it is to wear the dress...!
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    GarethofthevaleGarethofthevale Posts: 503
    HYUFD said:

    Garethvale - Rudd not contesting leadership, says his aim to maintain ALP as a fighting force which he has done. Conceded graciously to Abbott at the beginning

    Yes he finally got there in the end after about 10 minutes waffle!

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    RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Looks like ALP hold their 3rd and 6th most marginal seats but lose their 52nd (22nd safest) seat of Lyons in Tasmania...
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,171
    FluffyThoughts Howard got 94 seats in 1996 Keating 49. So clearly Rudd done better than that, and 53-47 is what Howard got in '07
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    maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,391
    Awful consession speech - the insularity of it would only have made sense if he was going to try and fight on. Now he's taking a backward sense it just seems downright bizarre.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,020
    26 Australian seats have so far counted more than 70% and have at least a 5% margin of victory. The rest are projections.
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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    S.st C..Are they the same dress size..?
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    FluffyThoughtsFluffyThoughts Posts: 2,420
    edited September 2013
    HYUFD said:

    FluffyThoughts Howard got 94 seats in 1996 Keating 49. So clearly Rudd done better than that, and 53-47 is what Howard got in '07

    Seriously fatuous. Are you suggesting that "Ed is crap" Militwunt will have failed if he does not match the Anti-Christ's election victory of 1997?

    That is then, this is now: When facts change then so should opinions. You are better then your post posits....

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    maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,391
    Andy_JS said:

    26 Australian seats have so far counted more than 70% and have at least a 5% margin of victory. The rest are projections.

    70% in with a 5% margin is also a projection - you're merely using a different benchmark before sticking your neck out.

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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,020
    Rudd saying that Labor haven't lost any seats in Queensland but they could still lose Petrie and Capricornia.
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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    For OZ watchers .. what do we now have in power in OZ .
    What will be the major fundamental changes ?.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,171
    Maarsh As AndyJS states projections alter, but the point is Rudd did better than Keating in 1996 and far better than the massacre Gillard would have got based on polls earlier in the year. A clear Abbott win, but not as overwhelming as it could have been and the Coalition came back to force a hung parliament in 2010 with a similar defeat in 2007 and in 1998 the ALP won the 2PP after a worse defeat in 1996
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    maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,391
    HYUFD - I don't see anyone claiming this is the most crushing victory in electoral history.

    When you're done constructing straw men to try and downplay a very big win, I'd love to hear why you keep quoting out of date projects and never mention it when the projection moves away from Rudd, which it has been doing consistently.
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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    After the wild excitement of the OZ elections.. Ashcroft has stated that she is convinced Assad killed his own folk by gassing them.. Ashcroft is of course speaking for the EU..Is this a game changer.?.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,171
    Julia Gillard A tough night for Labor. But a spirited fight by Kevin, Albo, George + the whole team. My thoughts are with you all. JG
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,171
    Abbott now about to speak
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,171
    marsh well some were projecting it would be that last week.
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    SMukeshSMukesh Posts: 1,650
    richardDodd said:

    AnneJP.. When was the last time we gassed 1400 people with circa 400 being infants..if we had then they should certainly be giving us the once over..

    Iraq was essentially peaceful at the time of invasion albeit a dictatorship.

    To date,there are a million dead with the death tally being added onto every week.

    And the UK and US went in as global policemen without U.N security council authorisation on the pretext of Weapons of Mass Destruction and the result is a million dead.And there were no WMD either.

    So it makes perfect sense for us to rush headlong into the next conflict with no idea of the consequences.


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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    HYUFD said:

    Julia Gillard A tough night for Labor. But a spirited fight by Kevin, Albo, George + the whole team. My thoughts are with you all. JG

    What, no mention of Tom Watson's superb job with the ALP campaign?

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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,171
    we won't know the final total for a while, and projections will move up and down
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Now let's see how the f*ck it up !
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Any odds on Obama winning the House ?
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Herald Sun @theheraldsun
    ABBOTT: "The Australian Labor Party's vote is at the lowest level in more than 100 years." nwspl.us/oEzsM #ausvotes
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,171
    SimonStClare He might get a footnote in a footnote if he is lucky
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,020
    ABC are predicting Labor will lose Capricornia and Petrie, both in Queensland.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    *orders popcorn*

    Dan Hodges @DPJHodges
    Hearing Unite might be preparing similar funding announcement to GMB.
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Why do ALP do relatively well in Vic ?
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Adam Smith @knkhtims
    55,000 Aussies voted for the Sex Party, 466 voted for the Wikileaks party abc.net.au/news/federal-e…
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,171
    Surbiton it is more urban around Melbourne etc and Gillard's hometurf, Howard came from NSW
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,171
    Surbiton very unlikely particularly if the House votes against the war
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,020
    Interesting that only about a third of the seats have counted as much as 70% of the vote.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,171
    So in the end a comfortable Abbott win, but not the massacre some had forecast earlier. Now Abbott needs to show he can not only oppose strongly, but also govern!
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,171
    FluffyThoughts You can only measure leaders in what they are presented with, Rudd took over the ALP facing massacre and the greatest defeat in its history and has given them a base to fight on. Ed Miliband has rebuilt Labour's base I would agree, but he took over with the LDs in coalition with the Tories and now faces a united left and a split right, so clearly if he does not win in 2015 that will be a disappointment
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    AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,869
    edited September 2013
    richardDodd said:

    AnneJP.. When was the last time we gassed 1400 people with circa 400 being infants..if we had then they should certainly be giving us the once over..

    Some societies might take the view that unborn infants count. Just because our society doesn't think they do (except in certain circumstances) doesn't mean to say everyone on the planet finds our views acceptable.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    ‘For a start who carries around 100-year-old relics in a plastic bag, it just seemed a bit crazy.

    ‘But then the customer began to tell me his story, about how he came to own them. He had all the supporting documents, so it began to seem less insane and appeared genuine.

    ‘It was a massive gamble, handing over the £15,000, but now I know the collection is worth a lot more. I had one offer for £1.2million, but I don’t want to sell them just yet. I want people to get a chance to see them first.’

    The customer, a civil servant and avid collector, from Wirral, Merseyside, became obsessed with the story of the Titanic as a young boy after he inherited a piece of wooden stairwell from a first class cabin on the liner.

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2414823/Pawnbroker-handed-relics-Titanic-worth-1-2million-carrier-bag-recovered-seabed-early-1990s.html#ixzz2eD4KCNw4
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Plato said:

    *orders popcorn*

    Dan Hodges @DPJHodges
    Hearing Unite might be preparing similar funding announcement to GMB.

    @DPJHodges
    Understand some pretty frantic discussions going on to try to prevent McCluskey pulling the trigger. May require Ed to eat humble pie.

    Falkirk, a non-story, a clear win for Ed. Swift. Decisive. Len's Bitch.
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    FluffyThoughtsFluffyThoughts Posts: 2,420
    Quick question 'bout Oz:

    Last time (when the Welshwitch - no, not Ms Ruddock, t'other one - won) did not the election take weeks to settle? Is it fair to say that, this year, the result is pretty fair-dinkum...?
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @RowennaDavis
    Does anyone know who wrote Cameron's small island speech yesterday? His tone is changing.

    @nicholaswatt
    @RowennaDavis Edward Elgar
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,020
    edited September 2013
    There could be a by-election in Kevin Rudd's seat quite soon if he decides to leave politics. Did he say anything about that in his speech?
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Why are the PB Kinnocks not posting the latest tweets of their new hero, Dan Hodges?

    @DPJHodges
    Hear those footsteps? That's cold, hard political reality catching up with Ed Miliband and the Labour party...
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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited September 2013
    FluffyThoughts said:

    Quick question 'bout Oz:

    Last time (when the Welshwitch - no, not Ms Ruddock, t'other one - won) did not the election take weeks to settle? Is it fair to say that, this year, the result is pretty fair-dinkum...?

    IIRC, the reasoning behind the delay last time was due to ‘postal votes’ and the closeness of the race - Oz’s based abroad all voted on the same day, and then waited for the ballot papers to arrive from the far flung corners of the Empire, via snail-mail…!

    Today's result was a clear win, but there may be a long wait for the final count to finish.
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,464
    richardDodd said:

    AnneJP.. When was the last time we gassed 1400 people with circa 400 being infants..if we had then they should certainly be giving us the once over..

    RD, A lot of people died in our invasion of Iraq.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @patrickwintour
    A day after European partners Germany has signed G20 statement linking Assad to use of chemical weapons. French not impressed with her delay
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,464
    I bet KRudd now regrets having unseated Gillard back in June!
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    FluffyThoughtsFluffyThoughts Posts: 2,420
    WANTED: [Thread Writer.]
    Given that the current Coalition has around 45% of the electorate - as assessed by various opinion-polls - and observing the fact that Mr Abbot has a land-slide victory [within the penal-colony] the House proposes:
    This House moves that the Orange-Bookers should resign the LD-whip and form a new, English Liberal-Conservative Party in order to win the 2015 election.
    Division:

    Ayes to the right, re-tyred-eds to the left. Clear the chamber...
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    IOSIOS Posts: 1,450
    When is Mike back?

    Sadly this site is just an eco chamber of the same few Tory posters. Hopefully on his return he will sort it out.
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