politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » David Herdson on tonight’s big European election
politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » David Herdson on tonight’s big European election
Hello and welcome once again to this European extravaganza; this celebration of all that is best and brightest about this continent; this joyous coming together of nations near and far. Oh all right, who am I kidding?
Comments
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Eurovision!0
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Labour’s performance in last week’s council elections suggests Jeremy Corbyn’s party is struggling to attract the working-class voters who traditionally formed the core of its support, according to a detailed analysis of the results.
“Labour’s performance in 2016 was squarely in line with what one might expect a year into a parliament where the opposition is not going to win the general election,” Baston said.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/14/labour-struggling-attract-working-class-voters-analysis-fabian-society0 -
Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro declared a 60-day state of emergency on Friday due to what he called plots from within the OPEC country and from the US to topple his leftist government.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/14/venezuela-president-declares-60-day-state-of-emergency-blaming-us-for-instability
Corbynism in action...0 -
My tips so far.
Back Belarus, loser already
Back France
Lay Le Royaume-Uni.
Hertsmere Pubgoer's tip of someone to get nil point is also excellent.0 -
So to Stockholm we all turn our eyes
UK vict'ry would be a surprise
Joe and Jake soon will say
(when you stand there and pay)
"Here's your change, here's your Big Mac and fries"0 -
Can I suggest this for when you need to update your avatar? Like your current incarnation, he created an apposite phrase in the English language.TheScreamingEagles said:My tips so far.
Back Belarus, loser already
Back France
Lay Le Royaume-Uni.
Hertsmere Pubgoer's tip of someone to get nil point is also excellent.
When you "pull a Benedict Arnold", you sell out your side and join the stronger side of a situation out of fear, not honor.
http://tinyurl.com/juyrdds0 -
At last, you and your ruby slippers are back on terra firm.... Huzzah!TheScreamingEagles said:Eurovision!
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yeah, ridiculous, cause the USA has never interfered in south american politics, nor sought to overthrow democratically elected govtsFrancisUrquhart said:Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro declared a 60-day state of emergency on Friday due to what he called plots from within the OPEC country and from the US to topple his leftist government.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/14/venezuela-president-declares-60-day-state-of-emergency-blaming-us-for-instability
Corbynism in action...0 -
I'll consider it.Charles said:
Can I suggest this for when you need to update your avatar? Like your current incarnation, he created an apposite phrase in the English language.TheScreamingEagles said:My tips so far.
Back Belarus, loser already
Back France
Lay Le Royaume-Uni.
Hertsmere Pubgoer's tip of someone to get nil point is also excellent.
When you "pull a Benedict Arnold", you sell out your side and join the stronger side of a situation out of fear, not honor.
http://tinyurl.com/juyrdds
Benedict Arnold was a top top bloke. Like me he put the interests of The United Kingdom ahead of the interests of a bunch of narrow little nationalists.
I'm honoured to be spoken in the same breath as Benedict Arnold.0 -
Are you talking about David Cameron's EU deal or Eurovision?DavidHerdson said:Who can forget that after so many hopes were stored up last time, coming back home with a very measly return. I thought it was quite good actually but then what do I know?
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All the songs sound the same to me these days. It's one of the ways that I know I am getting older.0
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Kohli and AB De Villiers are going absolutely bananas in the IPL.0
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Benny from Total Recall?TheScreamingEagles said:
I'll consider it.Charles said:
Can I suggest this for when you need to update your avatar? Like your current incarnation, he created an apposite phrase in the English language.TheScreamingEagles said:My tips so far.
Back Belarus, loser already
Back France
Lay Le Royaume-Uni.
Hertsmere Pubgoer's tip of someone to get nil point is also excellent.
When you "pull a Benedict Arnold", you sell out your side and join the stronger side of a situation out of fear, not honor.
http://tinyurl.com/juyrdds
Benedict Arnold was a top top bloke. Like me he put the interests of The United Kingdom ahead of the interests of a bunch of narrow little nationalists.
I'm honoured to be spoken in the same breath as Benedict Arnold.0 -
There is a swing towards Russia.0
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Your best work yet! Saatchis would HATE that being played back to them......Sunil_Prasannan said:0 -
In 1956 there was only 7 counties in the competition, in fairness you should consider normalising our rankingSunil_Prasannan said:ttps://twitter.com/Sunil_P2/status/728009849754271744
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Interesting question. Could the Saatchis sue for the use of their idea/image even though it has been changed?MarqueeMark said:
Your best work yet! Saatchis would HATE that being played back to them......Sunil_Prasannan said:0 -
Great article and loved the final paragraph - its better than it was... I usually nodded off totally plonked by then.0
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Heard the British entry this morning and it is actually quite catchy, certainly compared to recent offerings, I doubt it will win but it might do better than expected0
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On the thread header - why does Papua New Guinea need 43 flags?0
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Ken Loach on the EU 'The EU, as it stands, is a neo-liberal project. How do we fight it best, within or without? On balance I think we fight it better within and we make alliances with other European left movements. But it is a dangerous, dangerous moment.'0
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To remind people in the UK of Boris Johnson's past racism towards Papau New Guinea, a subliminal message by the Pro-EU/Remain EBU that Leavers are racistsMarqueeMark said:On the thread header - why does Papua New Guinea need 43 flags?
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UK has won Eurovision only ONCE since the Single European Act of 1986!Indigo said:
In 1956 there was only 7 counties in the competition, in fairness you should consider normalising our rankingSunil_Prasannan said:ttps://twitter.com/Sunil_P2/status/728009849754271744
BRITAIN'S BETTER OFF OUTSIDE EUROPE!0 -
Win Eurovision?
Bring back the juries of the Great and Good (the Luvvies), Select a gay group to play a gay song, dress camply, and have a transgender singer in a wheelchair as lead singer.
Yes, you'll lose the Eastern European vote but they only vote for each other anyway. The virtue-signallers will fall over themselves to vote for it, no matter how bad the song.
And yes, I'm still bitter over the Polish milkmaid's defeat.
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Presumably it would come under the parody safe harbour?Richard_Tyndall said:
Interesting question. Could the Saatchis sue for the use of their idea/image even though it has been changed?MarqueeMark said:
Your best work yet! Saatchis would HATE that being played back to them......Sunil_Prasannan said:0 -
Ken Loach? Seriously, the luvvies vote?HYUFD said:Ken Loach on the EU 'The EU, as it stands, is a neo-liberal project. How do we fight it best, within or without? On balance I think we fight it better within and we make alliances with other European left movements. But it is a dangerous, dangerous moment.'
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More like Benny from CrossroadsSunil_Prasannan said:
Benny from Total Recall?TheScreamingEagles said:
I'll consider it.Charles said:
Can I suggest this for when you need to update your avatar? Like your current incarnation, he created an apposite phrase in the English language.TheScreamingEagles said:My tips so far.
Back Belarus, loser already
Back France
Lay Le Royaume-Uni.
Hertsmere Pubgoer's tip of someone to get nil point is also excellent.
When you "pull a Benedict Arnold", you sell out your side and join the stronger side of a situation out of fear, not honor.
http://tinyurl.com/juyrdds
Benedict Arnold was a top top bloke. Like me he put the interests of The United Kingdom ahead of the interests of a bunch of narrow little nationalists.
I'm honoured to be spoken in the same breath as Benedict Arnold.0 -
REMAINERs are racist for only giving non-white India only £279 million p.a., but white-majority EU nations £8.5 BILLION (NET!) p.a.TheScreamingEagles said:
To remind people in the UK of Boris Johnson's past racism towards Papau New Guinea, a subliminal message by the Pro-EU/Remain EBU that Leavers are racistsMarqueeMark said:On the thread header - why does Papua New Guinea need 43 flags?
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CD13 said:
Win Eurovision?
Bring back the juries of the Great and Good (the Luvvies), Select a gay group to play a gay song, dress camply, and have a transgender singer in a wheelchair as lead singer.
Yes, you'll lose the Eastern European vote but they only vote for each other anyway. The virtue-signallers will fall over themselves to vote for it, no matter how bad the song.
And yes, I'm still bitter over the Polish milkmaid's defeat.
I miss Katie Boyle...0 -
Who's Benny in Total Recall? Brainfart here.Hertsmere_Pubgoer said:
More like Benny from CrossroadsSunil_Prasannan said:
Benny from Total Recall?TheScreamingEagles said:
I'll consider it.Charles said:
Can I suggest this for when you need to update your avatar? Like your current incarnation, he created an apposite phrase in the English language.TheScreamingEagles said:My tips so far.
Back Belarus, loser already
Back France
Lay Le Royaume-Uni.
Hertsmere Pubgoer's tip of someone to get nil point is also excellent.
When you "pull a Benedict Arnold", you sell out your side and join the stronger side of a situation out of fear, not honor.
http://tinyurl.com/juyrdds
Benedict Arnold was a top top bloke. Like me he put the interests of The United Kingdom ahead of the interests of a bunch of narrow little nationalists.
I'm honoured to be spoken in the same breath as Benedict Arnold.0 -
More like Benny HillHertsmere_Pubgoer said:
More like Benny from CrossroadsSunil_Prasannan said:
Benny from Total Recall?TheScreamingEagles said:
I'll consider it.Charles said:
Can I suggest this for when you need to update your avatar? Like your current incarnation, he created an apposite phrase in the English language.TheScreamingEagles said:My tips so far.
Back Belarus, loser already
Back France
Lay Le Royaume-Uni.
Hertsmere Pubgoer's tip of someone to get nil point is also excellent.
When you "pull a Benedict Arnold", you sell out your side and join the stronger side of a situation out of fear, not honor.
http://tinyurl.com/juyrdds
Benedict Arnold was a top top bloke. Like me he put the interests of The United Kingdom ahead of the interests of a bunch of narrow little nationalists.
I'm honoured to be spoken in the same breath as Benedict Arnold.0 -
Ah- but I was referring to the Benny character in Total Recall, a Mutant who initially helps out Arnie, but turns traitor near the end.Hertsmere_Pubgoer said:
More like Benny from CrossroadsSunil_Prasannan said:
Benny from Total Recall?TheScreamingEagles said:
I'll consider it.Charles said:
Can I suggest this for when you need to update your avatar? Like your current incarnation, he created an apposite phrase in the English language.TheScreamingEagles said:My tips so far.
Back Belarus, loser already
Back France
Lay Le Royaume-Uni.
Hertsmere Pubgoer's tip of someone to get nil point is also excellent.
When you "pull a Benedict Arnold", you sell out your side and join the stronger side of a situation out of fear, not honor.
http://tinyurl.com/juyrdds
Benedict Arnold was a top top bloke. Like me he put the interests of The United Kingdom ahead of the interests of a bunch of narrow little nationalists.
I'm honoured to be spoken in the same breath as Benedict Arnold.0 -
Domenico Scala: Fifa's independent audit committee president resigns
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/36293324
Time to just shut down the shit show that is FIFA and start again.0 -
Shows I think that the hard Left will narrowly vote Remain but reluctantly, ironically probably like the country as a wholePlato_Says said:
Ken Loach? Seriously, the luvvies vote?HYUFD said:Ken Loach on the EU 'The EU, as it stands, is a neo-liberal project. How do we fight it best, within or without? On balance I think we fight it better within and we make alliances with other European left movements. But it is a dangerous, dangerous moment.'
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"Baby, you make me wish I had THREE hands!"Plato_Says said:
Who's Benny in Total Recall? Brainfart here.Hertsmere_Pubgoer said:
More like Benny from CrossroadsSunil_Prasannan said:
Benny from Total Recall?TheScreamingEagles said:
I'll consider it.Charles said:
Can I suggest this for when you need to update your avatar? Like your current incarnation, he created an apposite phrase in the English language.TheScreamingEagles said:My tips so far.
Back Belarus, loser already
Back France
Lay Le Royaume-Uni.
Hertsmere Pubgoer's tip of someone to get nil point is also excellent.
When you "pull a Benedict Arnold", you sell out your side and join the stronger side of a situation out of fear, not honor.
http://tinyurl.com/juyrdds
Benedict Arnold was a top top bloke. Like me he put the interests of The United Kingdom ahead of the interests of a bunch of narrow little nationalists.
I'm honoured to be spoken in the same breath as Benedict Arnold.
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Ah yes!Sunil_Prasannan said:
"Baby, you make me wish I had THREE hands!"Plato_Says said:
Who's Benny in Total Recall? Brainfart here.Hertsmere_Pubgoer said:
More like Benny from CrossroadsSunil_Prasannan said:
Benny from Total Recall?TheScreamingEagles said:
I'll consider it.Charles said:
Can I suggest this for when you need to update your avatar? Like your current incarnation, he created an apposite phrase in the English language.TheScreamingEagles said:My tips so far.
Back Belarus, loser already
Back France
Lay Le Royaume-Uni.
Hertsmere Pubgoer's tip of someone to get nil point is also excellent.
When you "pull a Benedict Arnold", you sell out your side and join the stronger side of a situation out of fear, not honor.
http://tinyurl.com/juyrdds
Benedict Arnold was a top top bloke. Like me he put the interests of The United Kingdom ahead of the interests of a bunch of narrow little nationalists.
I'm honoured to be spoken in the same breath as Benedict Arnold.0 -
I hope you emulate his failure and legacy.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'll consider it.Charles said:
Can I suggest this for when you need to update your avatar? Like your current incarnation, he created an apposite phrase in the English language.TheScreamingEagles said:My tips so far.
Back Belarus, loser already
Back France
Lay Le Royaume-Uni.
Hertsmere Pubgoer's tip of someone to get nil point is also excellent.
When you "pull a Benedict Arnold", you sell out your side and join the stronger side of a situation out of fear, not honor.
http://tinyurl.com/juyrdds
Benedict Arnold was a top top bloke. Like me he put the interests of The United Kingdom ahead of the interests of a bunch of narrow little nationalists.
I'm honoured to be spoken in the same breath as Benedict Arnold.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36289037
From the first picture, looks like Remain are going to be pushing the BS gravity modelled bollock numbers to the max. Very helpful of the BBC to make sure we notice. If it had been Farage, they would have just draw a Hitler moustache instead.0 -
Because we have had so much success changing the EU from inside, even when we threatened to leave and take our £11bn a year with us they basically told us to piss off. Anyone who thinks the EU can be reformed from the inside is letting hope trump experience.HYUFD said:Ken Loach on the EU 'The EU, as it stands, is a neo-liberal project. How do we fight it best, within or without? On balance I think we fight it better within and we make alliances with other European left movements. But it is a dangerous, dangerous moment.'
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Don't forget the great Tampon Tax reform.....oh wait even that is subject to more consultation...Indigo said:
Because we have had so much success changing the EU from inside, even when we threatened to leave and take our £11bn a year with us they basically told us to piss off. Anyone who thinks the EU can be reformed from the inside is letting hope trump experience.HYUFD said:Ken Loach on the EU 'The EU, as it stands, is a neo-liberal project. How do we fight it best, within or without? On balance I think we fight it better within and we make alliances with other European left movements. But it is a dangerous, dangerous moment.'
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I think the Remainers have a blind spot in regards to Immigration and the Economy.
Most people care most about the economy *as it impacts them*. That is why the 1989-1992 recession is seen as far worse than the 2008 one for many.
Immigration is a secondary issue until it reaches extreme levels. Once it reaches extreme levels (ie enough to distort the wages for a trade or enough to drive rent up/make social housing diffucult to obtain) then immigration IS "the economy" because it is the biggest factor affecting the economy for affected people.
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Christ on a bike, the fact that Remainers have the front to even suggest the Tampon Tax as a great victory shows the paucity of our ambition.FrancisUrquhart said:
Don't forget the great Tampon Tax reform.....oh wait even that is subject to more consultation...Indigo said:
Because we have had so much success changing the EU from inside, even when we threatened to leave and take our £11bn a year with us they basically told us to piss off. Anyone who thinks the EU can be reformed from the inside is letting hope trump experience.HYUFD said:Ken Loach on the EU 'The EU, as it stands, is a neo-liberal project. How do we fight it best, within or without? On balance I think we fight it better within and we make alliances with other European left movements. But it is a dangerous, dangerous moment.'
We fought a civil war on the basis that tax should not be raised except by those we elect to govern us, and yet that we are supposed to see that possibility of slightly more leeway, over a small area of one of our many taxes as some sort of great victory is shocking in its small mindedness and lack of vision.
"We should lift our eyes to more distant skies, and reclaim that birthright that we once took for granted"0 -
Didn’t we fight (and in the case of half my ancestors win) a civil war over the fact that the King only ruled with the consent of Parliament, not by Divine Right?Indigo said:
Christ on a bike, the fact that Remainers have the front to even suggest the Tampon Tax as a great victory shows the paucity of our ambition.FrancisUrquhart said:
Don't forget the great Tampon Tax reform.....oh wait even that is subject to more consultation...Indigo said:
Because we have had so much success changing the EU from inside, even when we threatened to leave and take our £11bn a year with us they basically told us to piss off. Anyone who thinks the EU can be reformed from the inside is letting hope trump experience.HYUFD said:Ken Loach on the EU 'The EU, as it stands, is a neo-liberal project. How do we fight it best, within or without? On balance I think we fight it better within and we make alliances with other European left movements. But it is a dangerous, dangerous moment.'
We fought a civil war on the basis that tax should not be raised except by those we elect to govern us, and yet that we are supposed to see that possibility of slightly more leeway, over a small area of one of our many taxes as some sort of great victory is shocking in its small mindedness and lack of vision.
"We should lift our eyes to more distant skies, and reclaim that birthright that we once took for granted"0 -
Thanks DH!
FPT:
edmundintokyo said:
>>show previous quotes
Britain isn't great at infrastructure but it's not remotely as bad as you make out. There are all kinds of infrastructure projects in the UK sit on hold for decades because there isn't enough money to build them, then once there's enough demand (and enough taxpayers to fund it) it gets built. Crossrail and its predecessors were discussed forever. There was never enough money to build it until the high-immigration 2000s. It is actually happening, and it is actually going to open.<<
So, to precis, we have to have high immigration otherwise we would never build the things we need to build because of high immigration?
Well, it is a view. Not a very persuasive one, but it is definitely a view.0 -
FPT thank you Roger for an excellent piece, he and I have called each other names but his views through an ad agency's eyes are interesting and informative.
Moving on, I'm now convinced that in the event of Remain the Conservative Party is finished. Read the attitude of the Tory Remainers on here, on June 24th they'll be even more smug, as if their sneering insults were justified. They might win the referendum but their life long love, the Conservative Party, won't forgive that easily.0 -
Evidently Bjorn from Abba is backing the UK song - he is also keen for the UK to remain. Expect a better UK vote than in recent years.0
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Yes, people on here judge the economy by govt figures, but most judge it by personal circumstances. Millions have been negatively affected by immigration.Paul_Bedfordshire said:I think the Remainers have a blind spot in regards to Immigration and the Economy.
Most people care most about the economy *as it impacts them*. That is why the 1989-1992 recession is seen as far worse than the 2008 one for many.
Immigration is a secondary issue until it reaches extreme levels. Once it reaches extreme levels (ie enough to distort the wages for a trade or enough to drive rent up/make social housing diffucult to obtain) then immigration IS "the economy" because it is the biggest factor affecting the economy for affected people.0 -
I'd equate *austerity* with *immigration* via targeted messaging - public services at breaking point, overcrowded schools, NHS maternity wards groaning, potholes - the whole nine yards. We simply don't have the money to sustain this - its hurting us now...Paul_Bedfordshire said:I think the Remainers have a blind spot in regards to Immigration and the Economy.
Most people care most about the economy *as it impacts them*. That is why the 1989-1992 recession is seen as far worse than the 2008 one for many.
Immigration is a secondary issue until it reaches extreme levels. Once it reaches extreme levels (ie enough to distort the wages for a trade or enough to drive rent up/make social housing diffucult to obtain) then immigration IS "the economy" because it is the biggest factor affecting the economy for affected people.0 -
Because the king wanted to raise a tax to pay for his war in Scotland, and parliament led by John Pym said that they would only pay in exchange for being granted certain liberties, and the king told them to get stuffed and dissolved parliament.OldKingCole said:
Didn’t we fight (and in the case of half my ancestors win) a civil war over the fact that the King only ruled with the consent of Parliament, not by Divine Right?Indigo said:
Christ on a bike, the fact that Remainers have the front to even suggest the Tampon Tax as a great victory shows the paucity of our ambition.FrancisUrquhart said:
Don't forget the great Tampon Tax reform.....oh wait even that is subject to more consultation...Indigo said:
Because we have had so much success changing the EU from inside, even when we threatened to leave and take our £11bn a year with us they basically told us to piss off. Anyone who thinks the EU can be reformed from the inside is letting hope trump experience.HYUFD said:Ken Loach on the EU 'The EU, as it stands, is a neo-liberal project. How do we fight it best, within or without? On balance I think we fight it better within and we make alliances with other European left movements. But it is a dangerous, dangerous moment.'
We fought a civil war on the basis that tax should not be raised except by those we elect to govern us, and yet that we are supposed to see that possibility of slightly more leeway, over a small area of one of our many taxes as some sort of great victory is shocking in its small mindedness and lack of vision.
"We should lift our eyes to more distant skies, and reclaim that birthright that we once took for granted"0 -
It doesn't matter which model you use if your assumptions are that the UK is pulling out of the EU and doesn't want free trade deals with anyone any time soon. They also assume that we love all the existing regulations. Whitehall may do but I don't.FrancisUrquhart said:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36289037
From the first picture, looks like Remain are going to be pushing the BS gravity modelled bollock numbers to the max. Very helpful of the BBC to make sure we notice. If it had been Farage, they would have just draw a Hitler moustache instead.
The assumption are wrong, but the result would be the same whether you used a good model or a bad one.
I wrote an article on this sort of group think here
http://aconservatives.blogspot.com/2016/05/imf-independently-predict-disaster-if.html0 -
Interesting that you think so few lefties read these comments that you feel OK about saying that.blackburn63 said:FPT thank you Roger for an excellent piece, he and I have called each other names but his views through an ad agency's eyes are interesting and informative.
Moving on, I'm now convinced that in the event of Remain the Conservative Party is finished. Read the attitude of the Tory Remainers on here, on June 24th they'll be even more smug, as if their sneering insults were justified. They might win the referendum but their life long love, the Conservative Party, won't forgive that easily.
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TBH Mr I, I suspect we’re in danger of splitting hairs.Indigo said:
Because the king wanted to raise a tax to pay for his war in Scotland, and parliament led by John Pym said that they would only pay in exchange for being granted certain liberties, and the king told them to get stuffed and dissolved parliament.OldKingCole said:
Didn’t we fight (and in the case of half my ancestors win) a civil war over the fact that the King only ruled with the consent of Parliament, not by Divine Right?Indigo said:
Christ on a bike, the fact that Remainers have the front to even suggest the Tampon Tax as a great victory shows the paucity of our ambition.FrancisUrquhart said:
Don't forget the great Tampon Tax reform.....oh wait even that is subject to more consultation...Indigo said:
Because we have had so much success changing the EU from inside, even when we threatened to leave and take our £11bn a year with us they basically told us to piss off. Anyone who thinks the EU can be reformed from the inside is letting hope trump experience.HYUFD said:Ken Loach on the EU 'The EU, as it stands, is a neo-liberal project. How do we fight it best, within or without? On balance I think we fight it better within and we make alliances with other European left movements. But it is a dangerous, dangerous moment.'
We fought a civil war on the basis that tax should not be raised except by those we elect to govern us, and yet that we are supposed to see that possibility of slightly more leeway, over a small area of one of our many taxes as some sort of great victory is shocking in its small mindedness and lack of vision.
"We should lift our eyes to more distant skies, and reclaim that birthright that we once took for granted"0 -
I do hope some journalist looks into how many hours the BBC has been talking about itself this week - it is so yawningly dull!0
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Interesting that you are so obsessed with everyone hating lefties that you didn't notice his point was purely about relations within the conservative party as other posters here (Southam, NP etc to be sure) have frequently posted on matters about internal Labour Party relations. Your persecution complex is getting very wearisome.Innocent_Abroad said:
Interesting that you think so few lefties read these comments that you feel OK about saying that.blackburn63 said:FPT thank you Roger for an excellent piece, he and I have called each other names but his views through an ad agency's eyes are interesting and informative.
Moving on, I'm now convinced that in the event of Remain the Conservative Party is finished. Read the attitude of the Tory Remainers on here, on June 24th they'll be even more smug, as if their sneering insults were justified. They might win the referendum but their life long love, the Conservative Party, won't forgive that easily.0 -
You may well be rightOldKingCole said:
TBH Mr I, I suspect we’re in danger of splitting hairs.Indigo said:
Because the king wanted to raise a tax to pay for his war in Scotland, and parliament led by John Pym said that they would only pay in exchange for being granted certain liberties, and the king told them to get stuffed and dissolved parliament.OldKingCole said:
Didn’t we fight (and in the case of half my ancestors win) a civil war over the fact that the King only ruled with the consent of Parliament, not by Divine Right?Indigo said:
Christ on a bike, the fact that Remainers have the front to even suggest the Tampon Tax as a great victory shows the paucity of our ambition.FrancisUrquhart said:
Don't forget the great Tampon Tax reform.....oh wait even that is subject to more consultation...Indigo said:
Because we have had so much success changing the EU from inside, even when we threatened to leave and take our £11bn a year with us they basically told us to piss off. Anyone who thinks the EU can be reformed from the inside is letting hope trump experience.HYUFD said:Ken Loach on the EU 'The EU, as it stands, is a neo-liberal project. How do we fight it best, within or without? On balance I think we fight it better within and we make alliances with other European left movements. But it is a dangerous, dangerous moment.'
We fought a civil war on the basis that tax should not be raised except by those we elect to govern us, and yet that we are supposed to see that possibility of slightly more leeway, over a small area of one of our many taxes as some sort of great victory is shocking in its small mindedness and lack of vision.
"We should lift our eyes to more distant skies, and reclaim that birthright that we once took for granted" 0 -
The Eurovision can only be good for Remain. It has a kind of cheesy wholesomeness that is utterly unintimidating, even endearing. Leave's Project Fear - poor little Britain being humiliated and crushed beneath the jackboot of an EU elite - seems just plain silly when viewed against the Eurovision's quaint rivalry. Leave won't win if Europe seems harmless and fun.0
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Thanks for telling me what I thinkInnocent_Abroad said:
Interesting that you think so few lefties read these comments that you feel OK about saying that.blackburn63 said:FPT thank you Roger for an excellent piece, he and I have called each other names but his views through an ad agency's eyes are interesting and informative.
Moving on, I'm now convinced that in the event of Remain the Conservative Party is finished. Read the attitude of the Tory Remainers on here, on June 24th they'll be even more smug, as if their sneering insults were justified. They might win the referendum but their life long love, the Conservative Party, won't forgive that easily.0 -
The raison d’être of the Conservative Party is surely to see that like minded people (our sort) get elected.As opposed to most political parties, which have a definite philosophical basis. It’s one of the reason, perhaps the main reason, why it hasn’t split in any meaningful way since the 1840’s or thereabouts.Innocent_Abroad said:
Interesting that you think so few lefties read these comments that you feel OK about saying that.blackburn63 said:FPT thank you Roger for an excellent piece, he and I have called each other names but his views through an ad agency's eyes are interesting and informative.
Moving on, I'm now convinced that in the event of Remain the Conservative Party is finished. Read the attitude of the Tory Remainers on here, on June 24th they'll be even more smug, as if their sneering insults were justified. They might win the referendum but their life long love, the Conservative Party, won't forgive that easily.
So I suspect that after a while there’ll be a somewhat general grudging forgive and forget, although some serious personal animosities will continue.0 -
Interesting that you write one thing and think another. But hardly surprising to anyone who has read more than a couple of your comments.blackburn63 said:
Thanks for telling me what I thinkInnocent_Abroad said:
Interesting that you think so few lefties read these comments that you feel OK about saying that.blackburn63 said:FPT thank you Roger for an excellent piece, he and I have called each other names but his views through an ad agency's eyes are interesting and informative.
Moving on, I'm now convinced that in the event of Remain the Conservative Party is finished. Read the attitude of the Tory Remainers on here, on June 24th they'll be even more smug, as if their sneering insults were justified. They might win the referendum but their life long love, the Conservative Party, won't forgive that easily.
0 -
Norm said:
Evidently Bjorn from Abba is backing the UK song - he is also keen for the UK to remain. Expect a better UK vote than in recent years.
Hardly surprising. The wealthier are the more you are within the same circle as similar people in other European countries and the more foreign your own countries hoipolloi are.
I suspect the nordic countries and Germany are also worried that UK leaving will tip the balance of power more towards spendthrift and corruopt countries in southern and eastern Europe.
Once a narrow leave vote hits them squarely between the eyes I suspect they will be rather more willing to engage in sensible negotiations.0 -
I have to say Martin Shulz is bonkers
http://www.euronews.com/2016/05/12/martin-schulz-the-european-union-is-in-a-dismal-state/
Seriously Germany is too small?
Eurozone needs to move to one government?
Hasn't anyone noticed the history of Europe and the middle east and all the grand projects to build un natural countries?0 -
Australia performing strongly will render comparisons between Eurovision and the referendum self-evidently nonsense...Stark_Dawning said:The Eurovision can only be good for Remain. It has a kind of cheesy wholesomeness that is utterly unintimidating, even endearing. Leave's Project Fear - poor little Britain being humiliated and crushed beneath the jackboot of an EU elite - seems just plain silly when viewed against the Eurovision's quaint rivalry. Leave won't win if Europe seems harmless and fun.
0 -
Australia once wanted to join the European Common Market. Preliminary talks were even entered into. Strange but true.ThreeQuidder said:
Australia performing strongly will render comparisons between Eurovision and the referendum self-evidently nonsense...Stark_Dawning said:The Eurovision can only be good for Remain. It has a kind of cheesy wholesomeness that is utterly unintimidating, even endearing. Leave's Project Fear - poor little Britain being humiliated and crushed beneath the jackboot of an EU elite - seems just plain silly when viewed against the Eurovision's quaint rivalry. Leave won't win if Europe seems harmless and fun.
0 -
He has an interesting new usage for 're-nationalise' though.BenedictWhite said:I have to say Martin Shulz is bonkers
http://www.euronews.com/2016/05/12/martin-schulz-the-european-union-is-in-a-dismal-state/
Seriously Germany is too small?0 -
Quite.williamglenn said:
He has an interesting new usage for 're-nationalise' though.BenedictWhite said:I have to say Martin Shulz is bonkers
http://www.euronews.com/2016/05/12/martin-schulz-the-european-union-is-in-a-dismal-state/
Seriously Germany is too small?
The really odd thing is that "they" are marching on regardless.
Yugoslavia anyone? Syria? Iraq? All countries with borders set by elites. Doesn't end well.0 -
You are quite obviously a loon, I have no idea how many "lefties" read this, nor do you. I write a post about the Conservative Party and for reasons unknown you talk about something entirely unconnected.Innocent_Abroad said:
Interesting that you write one thing and think another. But hardly surprising to anyone who has read more than a couple of your comments.blackburn63 said:
Thanks for telling me what I thinkInnocent_Abroad said:
Interesting that you think so few lefties read these comments that you feel OK about saying that.blackburn63 said:FPT thank you Roger for an excellent piece, he and I have called each other names but his views through an ad agency's eyes are interesting and informative.
Moving on, I'm now convinced that in the event of Remain the Conservative Party is finished. Read the attitude of the Tory Remainers on here, on June 24th they'll be even more smug, as if their sneering insults were justified. They might win the referendum but their life long love, the Conservative Party, won't forgive that easily.
You google me, respond almost constantly to my posts and spout irrelevant drivel. I will state now that I won't bother replying at any stage to your inane, paranoid ramblings. Its obvious our paths have crossed previously but do me a favour and fuck off. You're just a pest.0 -
In polls, isn't it the case that people see immigration as the biggest issue facing the country, but not as the biggest issue facing them personally?Paul_Bedfordshire said:I think the Remainers have a blind spot in regards to Immigration and the Economy.
Most people care most about the economy *as it impacts them*. That is why the 1989-1992 recession is seen as far worse than the 2008 one for many.
Immigration is a secondary issue until it reaches extreme levels. Once it reaches extreme levels (ie enough to distort the wages for a trade or enough to drive rent up/make social housing diffucult to obtain) then immigration IS "the economy" because it is the biggest factor affecting the economy for affected people.
All Leavers who back the government's economic and fiscal plans are backing policies predicated on high levels of immigration.
0 -
I think you hope more than suspectOldKingCole said:
The raison d’être of the Conservative Party is surely to see that like minded people (our sort) get elected.As opposed to most political parties, which have a definite philosophical basis. It’s one of the reason, perhaps the main reason, why it hasn’t split in any meaningful way since the 1840’s or thereabouts.Innocent_Abroad said:
Interesting that you think so few lefties read these comments that you feel OK about saying that.blackburn63 said:FPT thank you Roger for an excellent piece, he and I have called each other names but his views through an ad agency's eyes are interesting and informative.
Moving on, I'm now convinced that in the event of Remain the Conservative Party is finished. Read the attitude of the Tory Remainers on here, on June 24th they'll be even more smug, as if their sneering insults were justified. They might win the referendum but their life long love, the Conservative Party, won't forgive that easily.
So I suspect that after a while there’ll be a somewhat general grudging forgive and forget, although some serious personal animosities will continue.0 -
Good old Martin Schulz, he has lots of interesting usages, you could be as nice a pie, work with disabled children for nothing all week, donate to a selection a charities, help old ladies across the road, even read The Guardian, but if don't believe in a federal European future you are an "extremist", and there I was thinking it related to the sort of people who believe in mass murder, and blowing things up, shows how wrong you can be.williamglenn said:
He has an interesting new usage for 're-nationalise' though.BenedictWhite said:I have to say Martin Shulz is bonkers
http://www.euronews.com/2016/05/12/martin-schulz-the-european-union-is-in-a-dismal-state/
Seriously Germany is too small?0 -
People may be overthinking the consequences of how the Eurovision Song Contest pans out.0
-
He clearly has no confidence in the EU elite it is a pan European left he wants to rallyIndigo said:
Because we have had so much success changing the EU from inside, even when we threatened to leave and take our £11bn a year with us they basically told us to piss off. Anyone who thinks the EU can be reformed from the inside is letting hope trump experience.HYUFD said:Ken Loach on the EU 'The EU, as it stands, is a neo-liberal project. How do we fight it best, within or without? On balance I think we fight it better within and we make alliances with other European left movements. But it is a dangerous, dangerous moment.'
0 -
The open question is whether today's Conservative Party can be considered group of like minded people. Cameron's divisive approach of moving toward the centre and saying rude things about his right wing in a largely futile attempt to pick up Guardianistas is certainly giving the impression of testing to destruction the meaning of the term "broad church"OldKingCole said:
The raison d’être of the Conservative Party is surely to see that like minded people (our sort) get elected.As opposed to most political parties, which have a definite philosophical basis. It’s one of the reason, perhaps the main reason, why it hasn’t split in any meaningful way since the 1840’s or thereabouts.Innocent_Abroad said:
Interesting that you think so few lefties read these comments that you feel OK about saying that.blackburn63 said:FPT thank you Roger for an excellent piece, he and I have called each other names but his views through an ad agency's eyes are interesting and informative.
Moving on, I'm now convinced that in the event of Remain the Conservative Party is finished. Read the attitude of the Tory Remainers on here, on June 24th they'll be even more smug, as if their sneering insults were justified. They might win the referendum but their life long love, the Conservative Party, won't forgive that easily.
So I suspect that after a while there’ll be a somewhat general grudging forgive and forget, although some serious personal animosities will continue.0 -
If our paths have crossed, I have no idea when.blackburn63 said:
You are quite obviously a loon, I have no idea how many "lefties" read this, nor do you. I write a post about the Conservative Party and for reasons unknown you talk about something entirely unconnected.Innocent_Abroad said:
Interesting that you write one thing and think another. But hardly surprising to anyone who has read more than a couple of your comments.blackburn63 said:
Thanks for telling me what I thinkInnocent_Abroad said:
Interesting that you think so few lefties read these comments that you feel OK about saying that.blackburn63 said:FPT thank you Roger for an excellent piece, he and I have called each other names but his views through an ad agency's eyes are interesting and informative.
Moving on, I'm now convinced that in the event of Remain the Conservative Party is finished. Read the attitude of the Tory Remainers on here, on June 24th they'll be even more smug, as if their sneering insults were justified. They might win the referendum but their life long love, the Conservative Party, won't forgive that easily.
You google me, respond almost constantly to my posts and spout irrelevant drivel. I will state now that I won't bother replying at any stage to your inane, paranoid ramblings. Its obvious our paths have crossed previously but do me a favour and fuck off. You're just a pest.
Why do you deserve a favour from me?
0 -
I particularly like the 'Source:HM Treasury' in the background for the figure, with the First Lord of the Treasury in the foreground.FrancisUrquhart said:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36289037
From the first picture, looks like Remain are going to be pushing the BS gravity modelled bollock numbers to the max. Very helpful of the BBC to make sure we notice. If it had been Farage, they would have just draw a Hitler moustache instead.
Surely there must be some taboo in quoting yourself as an authority to back up what you say.0 -
There aren't that many Guardianistas in the world, but there are a lot of voters in the political centre. Far more than there are on the right.Indigo said:
The open question is whether today's Conservative Party can be considered group of like minded people. Cameron's divisive approach of moving toward the centre and saying rude things about his right wing in a largely futile attempt to pick up Guardianistas is certainly giving the impression of testing to destruction the meaning of the term "broad church"OldKingCole said:
The raison d’être of the Conservative Party is surely to see that like minded people (our sort) get elected.As opposed to most political parties, which have a definite philosophical basis. It’s one of the reason, perhaps the main reason, why it hasn’t split in any meaningful way since the 1840’s or thereabouts.Innocent_Abroad said:
Interesting that you think so few lefties read these comments that you feel OK about saying that.blackburn63 said:FPT thank you Roger for an excellent piece, he and I have called each other names but his views through an ad agency's eyes are interesting and informative.
Moving on, I'm now convinced that in the event of Remain the Conservative Party is finished. Read the attitude of the Tory Remainers on here, on June 24th they'll be even more smug, as if their sneering insults were justified. They might win the referendum but their life long love, the Conservative Party, won't forgive that easily.
So I suspect that after a while there’ll be a somewhat general grudging forgive and forget, although some serious personal animosities will continue.
0 -
Most of whom are having an identity crisis of their own (see Syriza). The broader EU left movement still has to come up with an answer to the basis question of what it is for when there is very limited amounts of other peoples money to spend on good deeds, and it is next to impossible to raise taxes to any significant degree without either driving your rich overseas or losing the next election (possibly both)HYUFD said:
He clearly has no confidence in the EU elite it is a pan European left he wants to rallyIndigo said:
Because we have had so much success changing the EU from inside, even when we threatened to leave and take our £11bn a year with us they basically told us to piss off. Anyone who thinks the EU can be reformed from the inside is letting hope trump experience.HYUFD said:Ken Loach on the EU 'The EU, as it stands, is a neo-liberal project. How do we fight it best, within or without? On balance I think we fight it better within and we make alliances with other European left movements. But it is a dangerous, dangerous moment.'
0 -
There are two key points here:Indigo said:
The open question is whether today's Conservative Party can be considered group of like minded people. Cameron's divisive approach of moving toward the centre and saying rude things about his right wing in a largely futile attempt to pick up Guardianistas is certainly giving the impression of testing to destruction the meaning of the term "broad church"OldKingCole said:
The raison d’être of the Conservative Party is surely to see that like minded people (our sort) get elected.As opposed to most political parties, which have a definite philosophical basis. It’s one of the reason, perhaps the main reason, why it hasn’t split in any meaningful way since the 1840’s or thereabouts.Innocent_Abroad said:
Interesting that you think so few lefties read these comments that you feel OK about saying that.blackburn63 said:FPT thank you Roger for an excellent piece, he and I have called each other names but his views through an ad agency's eyes are interesting and informative.
Moving on, I'm now convinced that in the event of Remain the Conservative Party is finished. Read the attitude of the Tory Remainers on here, on June 24th they'll be even more smug, as if their sneering insults were justified. They might win the referendum but their life long love, the Conservative Party, won't forgive that easily.
So I suspect that after a while there’ll be a somewhat general grudging forgive and forget, although some serious personal animosities will continue.
(a) Cameron's leaving before the next election, and
(b) Labour are led by Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell.
Given (b), once (a) happens they'll pick a leader that they can all live with.0 -
Martin Schulz: “First of all, I owe you a compliment because I have rarely heard a non-German speaker pronounce Koch so well. Because it’s difficult....."BenedictWhite said:I have to say Martin Shulz is bonkers
http://www.euronews.com/2016/05/12/martin-schulz-the-european-union-is-in-a-dismal-state/
Seriously Germany is too small?
Eurozone needs to move to one government?
Hasn't anyone noticed the history of Europe and the middle east and all the grand projects to build un natural countries?0 -
None of the rest of us care, so both of you please shut up.Innocent_Abroad said:
If our paths have crossed, I have no idea when.blackburn63 said:
You are quite obviously a loon, I have no idea how many "lefties" read this, nor do you. I write a post about the Conservative Party and for reasons unknown you talk about something entirely unconnected.Innocent_Abroad said:
Interesting that you write one thing and think another. But hardly surprising to anyone who has read more than a couple of your comments.blackburn63 said:
Thanks for telling me what I thinkInnocent_Abroad said:
Interesting that you think so few lefties read these comments that you feel OK about saying that.blackburn63 said:FPT thank you Roger for an excellent piece, he and I have called each other names but his views through an ad agency's eyes are interesting and informative.
Moving on, I'm now convinced that in the event of Remain the Conservative Party is finished. Read the attitude of the Tory Remainers on here, on June 24th they'll be even more smug, as if their sneering insults were justified. They might win the referendum but their life long love, the Conservative Party, won't forgive that easily.
You google me, respond almost constantly to my posts and spout irrelevant drivel. I will state now that I won't bother replying at any stage to your inane, paranoid ramblings. Its obvious our paths have crossed previously but do me a favour and fuck off. You're just a pest.
Why do you deserve a favour from me?0 -
This canard comes up all the time. You can win in the centre but only if you can hang on to your wing as well. Cameron has pushed into the centre about as far as possible, and scraped a majority by the skin of his teeth against an incompetent buffoon like Ed Miliband, because he lost 15% of his right wing to UKIP. Blair moved to the centre and won, until the left wing got pissed off over Iraq (and him being a Tory, allegedly) then he lost as well. If sitting in the centre worked the Lib Dems would be the permanent party of government.SouthamObserver said:
There aren't that many Guardianistas in the world, but there are a lot of voters in the political centre. Far more than there are on the right.Indigo said:
The open question is whether today's Conservative Party can be considered group of like minded people. Cameron's divisive approach of moving toward the centre and saying rude things about his right wing in a largely futile attempt to pick up Guardianistas is certainly giving the impression of testing to destruction the meaning of the term "broad church"OldKingCole said:
The raison d’être of the Conservative Party is surely to see that like minded people (our sort) get elected.As opposed to most political parties, which have a definite philosophical basis. It’s one of the reason, perhaps the main reason, why it hasn’t split in any meaningful way since the 1840’s or thereabouts.Innocent_Abroad said:
Interesting that you think so few lefties read these comments that you feel OK about saying that.blackburn63 said:FPT thank you Roger for an excellent piece, he and I have called each other names but his views through an ad agency's eyes are interesting and informative.
Moving on, I'm now convinced that in the event of Remain the Conservative Party is finished. Read the attitude of the Tory Remainers on here, on June 24th they'll be even more smug, as if their sneering insults were justified. They might win the referendum but their life long love, the Conservative Party, won't forgive that easily.
So I suspect that after a while there’ll be a somewhat general grudging forgive and forget, although some serious personal animosities will continue.
(Also as soon as Labour come to their senses you have to fight for every vote in the centre, and still only get a third of them, the votes on the right are more or less there for the taking)0 -
Stark_Dawning said:
The Eurovision can only be good for Remain. It has a kind of cheesy wholesomeness that is utterly unintimidating, even endearing. Leave's Project Fear - poor little Britain being humiliated and crushed beneath the jackboot of an EU elite - seems just plain silly when viewed against the Eurovision's quaint rivalry. Leave won't win if Europe seems harmless and fun.
I think you may be right, SO.SouthamObserver said:People may be overthinking the consequences of how the Eurovision Song Contest pans out.
0 -
I hope so, but I fear it's going to be Osbrown, then they are fcked. They need someone the public can live with, and someone that is going to get at least some of the pissed off kipper inclined back on board, a sneering remainer like Ossie isnt it.ThreeQuidder said:
There are two key points here:Indigo said:
The open question is whether today's Conservative Party can be considered group of like minded people. Cameron's divisive approach of moving toward the centre and saying rude things about his right wing in a largely futile attempt to pick up Guardianistas is certainly giving the impression of testing to destruction the meaning of the term "broad church"OldKingCole said:
The raison d’être of the Conservative Party is surely to see that like minded people (our sort) get elected.As opposed to most political parties, which have a definite philosophical basis. It’s one of the reason, perhaps the main reason, why it hasn’t split in any meaningful way since the 1840’s or thereabouts.Innocent_Abroad said:
Interesting that you think so few lefties read these comments that you feel OK about saying that.blackburn63 said:FPT thank you Roger for an excellent piece, he and I have called each other names but his views through an ad agency's eyes are interesting and informative.
Moving on, I'm now convinced that in the event of Remain the Conservative Party is finished. Read the attitude of the Tory Remainers on here, on June 24th they'll be even more smug, as if their sneering insults were justified. They might win the referendum but their life long love, the Conservative Party, won't forgive that easily.
So I suspect that after a while there’ll be a somewhat general grudging forgive and forget, although some serious personal animosities will continue.
(a) Cameron's leaving before the next election, and
(b) Labour are led by Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell.
Given (b), once (a) happens they'll pick a leader that they can all live with.0 -
You're absolutely correct. If Remain triumphs the Tory party will see which way the wind is blowing and will re-establish itself as an essentially pro-European entity. Of course, it has never won an election on anything other than a pro-European prospectus, so it will actually feel more comfortable in itself. It was only when Maggie started losing the plot that Europhobia gained any traction, but I suspect history will record this as something of a blip.OldKingCole said:
The raison d’être of the Conservative Party is surely to see that like minded people (our sort) get elected.As opposed to most political parties, which have a definite philosophical basis. It’s one of the reason, perhaps the main reason, why it hasn’t split in any meaningful way since the 1840’s or thereabouts.Innocent_Abroad said:
Interesting that you think so few lefties read these comments that you feel OK about saying that.blackburn63 said:FPT thank you Roger for an excellent piece, he and I have called each other names but his views through an ad agency's eyes are interesting and informative.
Moving on, I'm now convinced that in the event of Remain the Conservative Party is finished. Read the attitude of the Tory Remainers on here, on June 24th they'll be even more smug, as if their sneering insults were justified. They might win the referendum but their life long love, the Conservative Party, won't forgive that easily.
So I suspect that after a while there’ll be a somewhat general grudging forgive and forget, although some serious personal animosities will continue.0 -
I find this interesting and confusing. A newspaper editor suggested to me in early 2014 that Ukip should concentrate on working class areas: they were anti immigration, pro Grammar schools, pro capital punishment and a strong judiciary, all things associated with "the right". My point is that left and right don't exist anymore, and if they don't surely the centre can't either.SouthamObserver said:
There aren't that many Guardianistas in the world, but there are a lot of voters in the political centre. Far more than there are on the right.Indigo said:
The open question is whether today's Conservative Party can be considered group of like minded people. Cameron's divisive approach of moving toward the centre and saying rude things about his right wing in a largely futile attempt to pick up Guardianistas is certainly giving the impression of testing to destruction the meaning of the term "broad church"OldKingCole said:
The raison d’être of the Conservative Party is surely to see that like minded people (our sort) get elected.As opposed to most political parties, which have a definite philosophical basis. It’s one of the reason, perhaps the main reason, why it hasn’t split in any meaningful way since the 1840’s or thereabouts.Innocent_Abroad said:
Interesting that you think so few lefties read these comments that you feel OK about saying that.blackburn63 said:FPT thank you Roger for an excellent piece, he and I have called each other names but his views through an ad agency's eyes are interesting and informative.
Moving on, I'm now convinced that in the event of Remain the Conservative Party is finished. Read the attitude of the Tory Remainers on here, on June 24th they'll be even more smug, as if their sneering insults were justified. They might win the referendum but their life long love, the Conservative Party, won't forgive that easily.
So I suspect that after a while there’ll be a somewhat general grudging forgive and forget, although some serious personal animosities will continue.0 -
I don’t have hopes about the Conservative Party; I have fears! Of what it’s done and in it’s self-destructive mode may do!blackburn63 said:
I think you hope more than suspectOldKingCole said:
The raison d’être of the Conservative Party is surely to see that like minded people (our sort) get elected.As opposed to most political parties, which have a definite philosophical basis. It’s one of the reason, perhaps the main reason, why it hasn’t split in any meaningful way since the 1840’s or thereabouts.Innocent_Abroad said:
Interesting that you think so few lefties read these comments that you feel OK about saying that.blackburn63 said:FPT thank you Roger for an excellent piece, he and I have called each other names but his views through an ad agency's eyes are interesting and informative.
Moving on, I'm now convinced that in the event of Remain the Conservative Party is finished. Read the attitude of the Tory Remainers on here, on June 24th they'll be even more smug, as if their sneering insults were justified. They might win the referendum but their life long love, the Conservative Party, won't forgive that easily.
So I suspect that after a while there’ll be a somewhat general grudging forgive and forget, although some serious personal animosities will continue.
If Cameron has in fact “done a Peel” and split the party, then it behoves those of us who vote Left or Centre Left (if those terms are still meaningful) to coalesce round something or someone who can provide a rational liberal alternative. Quite frankly I don’t think Cameron can, nor do I think he should even try. He’s damaged goods. I don’t think Corbyn can do it either; don’t think he thinks things through enough. Sadly, I can’t see anyone else, though.
I’d like to think it was Farron, but I don’t see it there, either.0 -
In my vast experience, grammar schools were only the obsession of the lower middle classes. As far as the working class was concerned, their existence was a rallying call to the Left.blackburn63 said:
I find this interesting and confusing. A newspaper editor suggested to me in early 2014 that Ukip should concentrate on working class areas: they were anti immigration, pro Grammar schools, pro capital punishment and a strong judiciary, all things associated with "the right". My point is that left and right don't exist anymore, and if they don't surely the centre can't either.SouthamObserver said:
There aren't that many Guardianistas in the world, but there are a lot of voters in the political centre. Far more than there are on the right.Indigo said:
The open question is whether today's Conservative Party can be considered group of like minded people. Cameron's divisive approach of moving toward the centre and saying rude things about his right wing in a largely futile attempt to pick up Guardianistas is certainly giving the impression of testing to destruction the meaning of the term "broad church"OldKingCole said:
The raison d’être of the Conservative Party is surely to see that like minded people (our sort) get elected.As opposed to most political parties, which have a definite philosophical basis. It’s one of the reason, perhaps the main reason, why it hasn’t split in any meaningful way since the 1840’s or thereabouts.Innocent_Abroad said:
Interesting that you think so few lefties read these comments that you feel OK about saying that.blackburn63 said:FPT thank you Roger for an excellent piece, he and I have called each other names but his views through an ad agency's eyes are interesting and informative.
Moving on, I'm now convinced that in the event of Remain the Conservative Party is finished. Read the attitude of the Tory Remainers on here, on June 24th they'll be even more smug, as if their sneering insults were justified. They might win the referendum but their life long love, the Conservative Party, won't forgive that easily.
So I suspect that after a while there’ll be a somewhat general grudging forgive and forget, although some serious personal animosities will continue.0 -
What a very honest post, I wouldn't put words in your mouth but the arrogance displayed by Cameron supporters in the past year has been ghastly, they'll need to eat an awful lot of humble pie irrespective of the EU result.OldKingCole said:
I don’t have hopes about the Conservative Party; I have fears! Of what it’s done and in it’s self-destructive mode may do!blackburn63 said:
I think you hope more than suspectOldKingCole said:
The raison d’être of the Conservative Party is surely to see that like minded people (our sort) get elected.As opposed to most political parties, which have a definite philosophical basis. It’s one of the reason, perhaps the main reason, why it hasn’t split in any meaningful way since the 1840’s or thereabouts.Innocent_Abroad said:
Interesting that you think so few lefties read these comments that you feel OK about saying that.blackburn63 said:FPT thank you Roger for an excellent piece, he and I have called each other names but his views through an ad agency's eyes are interesting and informative.
Moving on, I'm now convinced that in the event of Remain the Conservative Party is finished. Read the attitude of the Tory Remainers on here, on June 24th they'll be even more smug, as if their sneering insults were justified. They might win the referendum but their life long love, the Conservative Party, won't forgive that easily.
So I suspect that after a while there’ll be a somewhat general grudging forgive and forget, although some serious personal animosities will continue.
If Cameron has in fact “done a Peel” and split the party, then it behoves those of us who vote Left or Centre Left (if those terms are still meaningful) to coalesce round something or someone who can provide a rational liberal alternative. Quite frankly I don’t think Cameron can, nor do I think he should even try. He’s damaged goods. I don’t think Corbyn can do it either; don’t think he thinks things through enough. Sadly, I can’t see anyone else, though.
We need a strong and united Conservative Party and a strong and united Labour party got good governance, we have neither ergo we have poor governance. This lot are dreadful, no better than the coalition or Brown previously.0 -
The centre is defined by being against people who are just a little bit too passionate about changing things in any direction.blackburn63 said:I find this interesting and confusing. A newspaper editor suggested to me in early 2014 that Ukip should concentrate on working class areas: they were anti immigration, pro Grammar schools, pro capital punishment and a strong judiciary, all things associated with "the right". My point is that left and right don't exist anymore, and if they don't surely the centre can't either.
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Just on a point of order, Blair didn't lose. He quit while he was ahead. I suspect he'd have won in 2010 too, if he'd stayed on - there wasn't much in it.Indigo said:
This canard comes up all the time. You can win in the centre but only if you can hang on to your wing as well. Cameron has pushed into the centre about as far as possible, and scraped a majority by the skin of his teeth against an incompetent buffoon like Ed Miliband, because he lost 15% of his right wing to UKIP. Blair moved to the centre and won, until the left wing got pissed off over Iraq (and him being a Tory, allegedly) then he lost as well. If sitting in the centre worked the Lib Dems would be the permanent party of government.
(Also as soon as Labour come to their senses you have to fight for every vote in the centre, and still only get a third of them, the votes on the right are more or less there for the taking)
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Nobody is obsessed with Grammar schoolsStark_Dawning said:
In my vast experience, grammar schools were only the obsession of the lower middle classes. As far as the working class was concerned, their existence was a rallying call to the Left.blackburn63 said:
I find this interesting and confusing. A newspaper editor suggested to me in early 2014 that Ukip should concentrate on working class areas: they were anti immigration, pro Grammar schools, pro capital punishment and a strong judiciary, all things associated with "the right". My point is that left and right don't exist anymore, and if they don't surely the centre can't either.SouthamObserver said:
There aren't that many Guardianistas in the world, but there are a lot of voters in the political centre. Far more than there are on the right.Indigo said:
The open question is whether today's Conservative Party can be considered group of like minded people. Cameron's divisive approach of moving toward the centre and saying rude things about his right wing in a largely futile attempt to pick up Guardianistas is certainly giving the impression of testing to destruction the meaning of the term "broad church"OldKingCole said:
The raison d’être of the Conservative Party is surely to see that like minded people (our sort) get elected.As opposed to most political parties, which have a definite philosophical basis. It’s one of the reason, perhaps the main reason, why it hasn’t split in any meaningful way since the 1840’s or thereabouts.Innocent_Abroad said:
Interesting that you think so few lefties read these comments that you feel OK about saying that.blackburn63 said:FPT thank you Roger for an excellent piece, he and I have called each other names but his views through an ad agency's eyes are interesting and informative.
Moving on, I'm now convinced that in the event of Remain the Conservative Party is finished. Read the attitude of the Tory Remainers on here, on June 24th they'll be even more smug, as if their sneering insults were justified. They might win the referendum but their life long love, the Conservative Party, won't forgive that easily.
So I suspect that after a while there’ll be a somewhat general grudging forgive and forget, although some serious personal animosities will continue.0 -
LOL. Methinks you are living in La La land.Stark_Dawning said:
You're absolutely correct. If Remain triumphs the Tory party will see which way the wind is blowing and will re-establish itself as an essentially pro-European entity. Of course, it has never won an election on anything other than a pro-European prospectus, so it will actually feel more comfortable in itself. It was only when Maggie started losing the plot that Europhobia gained any traction, but I suspect history will record this as something of a blip.OldKingCole said:
The raison d’être of the Conservative Party is surely to see that like minded people (our sort) get elected.As opposed to most political parties, which have a definite philosophical basis. It’s one of the reason, perhaps the main reason, why it hasn’t split in any meaningful way since the 1840’s or thereabouts.Innocent_Abroad said:
Interesting that you think so few lefties read these comments that you feel OK about saying that.blackburn63 said:FPT thank you Roger for an excellent piece, he and I have called each other names but his views through an ad agency's eyes are interesting and informative.
Moving on, I'm now convinced that in the event of Remain the Conservative Party is finished. Read the attitude of the Tory Remainers on here, on June 24th they'll be even more smug, as if their sneering insults were justified. They might win the referendum but their life long love, the Conservative Party, won't forgive that easily.
So I suspect that after a while there’ll be a somewhat general grudging forgive and forget, although some serious personal animosities will continue.0 -
UKIP now get most of their support from the working class, it is the most blue collar party as the LDs are the most middle class party, the Tories and Labour take from both, the divide there is now more public or private sector than classblackburn63 said:
I find this interesting and confusing. A newspaper editor suggested to me in early 2014 that Ukip should concentrate on working class areas: they were anti immigration, pro Grammar schools, pro capital punishment and a strong judiciary, all things associated with "the right". My point is that left and right don't exist anymore, and if they don't surely the centre can't either.SouthamObserver said:
There aren't that many Guardianistas in the world, but there are a lot of voters in the political centre. Far more than there are on the right.Indigo said:
The open question is whether today's Conservative Party can be considered group of like minded people. Cameron's divisive approach of moving toward the centre and saying rude things about his right wing in a largely futile attempt to pick up Guardianistas is certainly giving the impression of testing to destruction the meaning of the term "broad church"OldKingCole said:
The raison d’être of the Conservative Party is surely to see that like minded people (our sort) get elected.As opposed to most political parties, which have a definite philosophical basis. It’s one of the reason, perhaps the main reason, why it hasn’t split in any meaningful way since the 1840’s or thereabouts.Innocent_Abroad said:
Interesting that you think so few lefties read these comments that you feel OK about saying that.blackburn63 said:FPT thank you Roger for an excellent piece, he and I have called each other names but his views through an ad agency's eyes are interesting and informative.
Moving on, I'm now convinced that in the event of Remain the Conservative Party is finished. Read the attitude of the Tory Remainers on here, on June 24th they'll be even more smug, as if their sneering insults were justified. They might win the referendum but their life long love, the Conservative Party, won't forgive that easily.
So I suspect that after a while there’ll be a somewhat general grudging forgive and forget, although some serious personal animosities will continue.0 -
Yes, that was the editor's point at a time most associated UKIP with old men in blazers.HYUFD said:
UKIP now get most of their support from the working class, it is the most blue collar party as the LDs are the most middle class party, the Tories and Labour take from both, the divide there is now more public or private sector than classblackburn63 said:
I find this interesting and confusing. A newspaper editor suggested to me in early 2014 that Ukip should concentrate on working class areas: they were anti immigration, pro Grammar schools, pro capital punishment and a strong judiciary, all things associated with "the right". My point is that left and right don't exist anymore, and if they don't surely the centre can't either.SouthamObserver said:
There aren't that many Guardianistas in the world, but there are a lot of voters in the political centre. Far more than there are on the right.Indigo said:
The open question is whether today's Conservative Party can be considered group of like minded people. Cameron's divisive approach of moving toward the centre and saying rude things about his right wing in a largely futile attempt to pick up Guardianistas is certainly giving the impression of testing to destruction the meaning of the term "broad church"OldKingCole said:
The raison d’être of the Conservative Party is surely to see that like minded people (our sort) get elected.As opposed to most political parties, which have a definite philosophical basis. It’s one of the reason, perhaps the main reason, why it hasn’t split in any meaningful way since the 1840’s or thereabouts.Innocent_Abroad said:
Interesting that you think so few lefties read these comments that you feel OK about saying that.blackburn63 said:FPT thank you Roger for an excellent piece, he and I have called each other names but his views through an ad agency's eyes are interesting and informative.
Moving on, I'm now convinced that in the event of Remain the Conservative Party is finished. Read the attitude of the Tory Remainers on here, on June 24th they'll be even more smug, as if their sneering insults were justified. They might win the referendum but their life long love, the Conservative Party, won't forgive that easily.
So I suspect that after a while there’ll be a somewhat general grudging forgive and forget, although some serious personal animosities will continue.0 -
He made a critical error - which you are in danger of repeating.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'll consider it.Charles said:
Can I suggest this for when you need to update your avatar? Like your current incarnation, he created an apposite phrase in the English language.TheScreamingEagles said:My tips so far.
Back Belarus, loser already
Back France
Lay Le Royaume-Uni.
Hertsmere Pubgoer's tip of someone to get nil point is also excellent.
When you "pull a Benedict Arnold", you sell out your side and join the stronger side of a situation out of fear, not honor.
http://tinyurl.com/juyrdds
Benedict Arnold was a top top bloke. Like me he put the interests of The United Kingdom ahead of the interests of a bunch of narrow little nationalists.
I'm honoured to be spoken in the same breath as Benedict Arnold.
You are fine if you choose the winning side for the wrong reasons, or the losing side for the right reasons.
Arnold - like you might have done - chose the losing side for the wrong reasons0 -
Indeed though it might get some middle-class Tory Leavers if it is a narrow Remainblackburn63 said:
Yes, that was the editor's point at a time most associated UKIP with old men in blazers.HYUFD said:
UKIP now get most of their support from the working class, it is the most blue collar party as the LDs are the most middle class party, the Tories and Labour take from both, the divide there is now more public or private sector than classblackburn63 said:
I find this interesting and confusing. A newspaper editor suggested to me in early 2014 that Ukip should concentrate on working class areas: they were anti immigration, pro Grammar schools, pro capital punishment and a strong judiciary, all things associated with "the right". My point is that left and right don't exist anymore, and if they don't surely the centre can't either.SouthamObserver said:
There aren't that many Guardianistas in the world, but there are a lot of voters in the political centre. Far more than there are on the right.Indigo said:
The open question is whether today's Conservative Party can be considered group of like minded people. Cameron's divisive approach of moving toward the centre and saying rude things about his right wing in a largely futile attempt to pick up Guardianistas is certainly giving the impression of testing to destruction the meaning of the term "broad church"OldKingCole said:
The raison d’être of the Conservative Party is surely to see that like minded people (our sort) get elected.As opposed to most political parties, which have a definite philosophical basis. It’s one of the reason, perhaps the main reason, why it hasn’t split in any meaningful way since the 1840’s or thereabouts.Innocent_Abroad said:
Interesting that you think so few lefties read these comments that you feel OK about saying that.blackburn63 said:FPT thank you Roger for an excellent piece, he and I have called each other names but his views through an ad agency's eyes are interesting and informative.
Moving on, I'm now convinced that in the event of Remain the Conservative Party is finished. Read the attitude of the Tory Remainers on here, on June 24th they'll be even more smug, as if their sneering insults were justified. They might win the referendum but their life long love, the Conservative Party, won't forgive that easily.
So I suspect that after a while there’ll be a somewhat general grudging forgive and forget, although some serious personal animosities will continue.0 -
Incidentally Mervyn King doesn't share Carney's apocalyptic views0
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Are you sure you don't mean Beni from The Mummy?Sunil_Prasannan said:
Ah- but I was referring to the Benny character in Total Recall, a Mutant who initially helps out Arnie, but turns traitor near the end.Hertsmere_Pubgoer said:
More like Benny from CrossroadsSunil_Prasannan said:
Benny from Total Recall?TheScreamingEagles said:
I'll consider it.Charles said:
Can I suggest this for when you need to update your avatar? Like your current incarnation, he created an apposite phrase in the English language.TheScreamingEagles said:My tips so far.
Back Belarus, loser already
Back France
Lay Le Royaume-Uni.
Hertsmere Pubgoer's tip of someone to get nil point is also excellent.
When you "pull a Benedict Arnold", you sell out your side and join the stronger side of a situation out of fear, not honor.
http://tinyurl.com/juyrdds
Benedict Arnold was a top top bloke. Like me he put the interests of The United Kingdom ahead of the interests of a bunch of narrow little nationalists.
I'm honoured to be spoken in the same breath as Benedict Arnold.
[Benedict Arnold has a lot to answer for!]0
