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So its a full scale invasion and regime change you're after, then TSE.TheScreamingEagles said:
Possibly.Sunil_Prasannan said:
But wouldn't that risk killing more innocent people than were killed by the WMD??TheScreamingEagles said:
People that use WMD on civilians deserve to bombed back to the stone age.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Why are you in favour?TheScreamingEagles said:Am I the only PBer in favour of military action in Syria?
Case in point:
Halabja, 1988 - 5000 civilian deaths
Invasion of Iraq, 2003 - far more than 5000 civilian deaths.
I don't think Cameron and Obama will be as poor as Blair and Bush when it comes to planning for the post war phase.
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It must be pretty miserable being a world leader at times like this.
Neither Cameron or Obama want to strike Syria. There is nothing militarily to be gained from it and it is unlikely to make the life of any Syrian civilian any better. The only upside is the winning of the diplomatic arm-wrestle against an increasingly wayward Putin.
But the alternative of doing nothing is really awful too.
What if Cameron and Obama turn their backs on it and tell the horrible truth, that in terms of the lesser of two evils, they'd prefer Assad in charge than to create a situation worse than that in Iraq. And then, through their lack of interest, Assad goes on to gas thousands or tens of thousands, or even a hundred thousand civilians.
How awful would that be?
It's a cruel, awful situation for everyone. I wouldn't want to be making the decisions on it.0 -
Just regime changeTwistedFireStopper said:
So its a full scale invasion and regime change you're after, then TSE.TheScreamingEagles said:
Possibly.Sunil_Prasannan said:
But wouldn't that risk killing more innocent people than were killed by the WMD??TheScreamingEagles said:
People that use WMD on civilians deserve to bombed back to the stone age.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Why are you in favour?TheScreamingEagles said:Am I the only PBer in favour of military action in Syria?
Case in point:
Halabja, 1988 - 5000 civilian deaths
Invasion of Iraq, 2003 - far more than 5000 civilian deaths.
I don't think Cameron and Obama will be as poor as Blair and Bush when it comes to planning for the post war phase.0 -
Well said. Tweeted that.Sunil_Prasannan said:
But wouldn't that risk killing more innocent people than were killed by the WMD??TheScreamingEagles said:
People that use WMD on civilians deserve to bombed back to the stone age.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Why are you in favour?TheScreamingEagles said:Am I the only PBer in favour of military action in Syria?
Case in point:
Halabja, 1988 - 5000 civilian deaths
Invasion of Iraq, 2003 - far more than 5000 civilian deaths.0 -
Oh I agree with Mary Riddell
Forget predistribution and living standards. If Labour does not stand forcefully for the children denied all dreams and gassed as they slept, then it stands for nothing.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/10268370/Labour-must-fight-this-war-not-the-last-one.html0 -
The primary goal of military action is to assert and demonstrate the will of the international powers to take interventionary action if and when the Chemical Weapons Convention is breached.TwistedFireStopper said:
What is the goal of military action, though? Is it just aimed at stopping any more chemical attacks? Is it regime change? Where will it stop, and how far should we go?Sunil_Prasannan said:
Why are you in favour?TheScreamingEagles said:Am I the only PBer in favour of military action in Syria?
It avoids the US "red line" bluff being called and sets precedents for intervention in the event of other nations producing, storing or using prohibited chemical weapons, or, more widely, breaching obligations under other treaties dealing with weapons of mass destruction. In particular, it has relevance for the alleged nuclear weapons programmes of North Korea and Iran.
A secondary goal is to demonstrate the will of the "western powers" to act independently of the UNSC when Russia and China use their veto powers 'unreasonably'. The tactics though may be force Russia and China into co-operation within the UNSC rather than allow the US and its allies to bypass the UN.
I doubt whether there are any firm military objectives. The demonstration of the power, will and capability to intervene is all that is needed. From the military perspective, this will be more about limiting the scope of the intervention to avoid additional civilian casualties and the perception that the western powers are seeking to take sides in the Syrian Civil War.
The best outcome of the current discussions would be for Russia to secure agreement by the Assad regime to enter immediately into negotiations for a political settlement and for the Russians and Chinese to agree to work with the US, UK and France within the UNSC to resolve the chemical weapons issue.
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But can that be done in Syria without a full scale invasion? I think Syria might be a tougher nut to crackTheScreamingEagles said:
Just regime changeTwistedFireStopper said:
So its a full scale invasion and regime change you're after, then TSE.TheScreamingEagles said:
Possibly.Sunil_Prasannan said:
But wouldn't that risk killing more innocent people than were killed by the WMD??TheScreamingEagles said:
People that use WMD on civilians deserve to bombed back to the stone age.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Why are you in favour?TheScreamingEagles said:Am I the only PBer in favour of military action in Syria?
Case in point:
Halabja, 1988 - 5000 civilian deaths
Invasion of Iraq, 2003 - far more than 5000 civilian deaths.
I don't think Cameron and Obama will be as poor as Blair and Bush when it comes to planning for the post war phase.
than Libya.0 -
Say this debate was about intervening in Rwanda in 1994 (not that there was such a debate), and we had stayed out on the basis of your instinct, and then what happened in Rwanda, happened, how good would you feel about it? There are times when you just have to say feck it, enough is enough.welshowl said:
Whilst the gassing is of course dreadful, whoever did it, I simply struggle with why we need to get involved. Syria I just don't see as being part of our strategic interests and it's clearly not a friend and ally. My instinct says stay well clear.TheScreamingEagles said:Am I the only PBer in favour of military action in Syria?
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Don't know, hope so.TwistedFireStopper said:
But can that be done in Syria without a full scale invasion? I think Syria might be a tougher nut to crackTheScreamingEagles said:
Just regime changeTwistedFireStopper said:
So its a full scale invasion and regime change you're after, then TSE.TheScreamingEagles said:
Possibly.Sunil_Prasannan said:
But wouldn't that risk killing more innocent people than were killed by the WMD??TheScreamingEagles said:
People that use WMD on civilians deserve to bombed back to the stone age.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Why are you in favour?TheScreamingEagles said:Am I the only PBer in favour of military action in Syria?
Case in point:
Halabja, 1988 - 5000 civilian deaths
Invasion of Iraq, 2003 - far more than 5000 civilian deaths.
I don't think Cameron and Obama will be as poor as Blair and Bush when it comes to planning for the post war phase.
than Libya.0 -
Somewhat problematic to use that as a case in point since it was done with U.S. blessing.Sunil_Prasannan said:
But wouldn't that risk killing more innocent people than were killed by the WMD??TheScreamingEagles said:
People that use WMD on civilians deserve to bombed back to the stone age.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Why are you in favour?TheScreamingEagles said:Am I the only PBer in favour of military action in Syria?
Case in point:
Halabja, 1988 - 5000 civilian deaths
Invasion of Iraq, 2003 - far more than 5000 civilian deaths.RadicalMedia_ @UnToldCarlisle 6h
Where did Saddam get those Weapons?
Declassified #CIA documents reveal that 25years ago US gave Saddam Hussein blessing to use toxins against Iranians http://bit.ly/17gssSaRumsfeld 'helped Iraq get chemical weapons'
Yes, it's those loveable NeoCon scamps again.
US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld helped Saddam Hussein build up his arsenal of deadly chemical and biological weapons, it was revealed last night.
As an envoy from President Reagan 19 years ago, he had a secret meeting with the Iraqi dictator and arranged enormous military assistance for his war with Iran.
The CIA had already warned that Iraq was using chemical weapons almost daily. But Mr Rumsfeld, at the time a successful executive in the pharmaceutical industry, still made it possible for Saddam to buy supplies from American firms.
They included viruses such as anthrax and bubonic plague, according to the Washington Post.
The extraordinary details have come to light because thousands of State Department documents dealing with the 1980-88 Iran-Iraq war have just been declassified and released under the Freedom of Information Act.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-153210/Rumsfeld-helped-Iraq-chemical-weapons.html
But at least lessons were learned etc.ACT UMD @ACT_UMD 3h
U.S. record on chemical weapons | Birth defect rate in Fallujah, Iraq higher than Hiroshima or Nagasaki after WWII http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/20/iraq-war-anniversary-birth-defects-cancer_n_2917701.html …0 -
Thanks, as you know I, hardly go on Twitter these days, I spend far too much time on herePlato said:Well said. Tweeted that.
Sunil_Prasannan said:
But wouldn't that risk killing more innocent people than were killed by the WMD??TheScreamingEagles said:
People that use WMD on civilians deserve to bombed back to the stone age.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Why are you in favour?TheScreamingEagles said:Am I the only PBer in favour of military action in Syria?
Case in point:
Halabja, 1988 - 5000 civilian deaths
Invasion of Iraq, 2003 - far more than 5000 civilian deaths.
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Useless fact: my grandmother, mother, father and me are all the same height.
How many people can say that, I wonder?0 -
I'm hoping for a lottery win, pay off my mortgage,credit cards and buy the Mrs an Evoque.TheScreamingEagles said:
Don't know, hope so.TwistedFireStopper said:
But can that be done in Syria without a full scale invasion? I think Syria might be a tougher nut to crackTheScreamingEagles said:
Just regime changeTwistedFireStopper said:
So its a full scale invasion and regime change you're after, then TSE.TheScreamingEagles said:
Possibly.Sunil_Prasannan said:
But wouldn't that risk killing more innocent people than were killed by the WMD??TheScreamingEagles said:
People that use WMD on civilians deserve to bombed back to the stone age.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Why are you in favour?TheScreamingEagles said:Am I the only PBer in favour of military action in Syria?
Case in point:
Halabja, 1988 - 5000 civilian deaths
Invasion of Iraq, 2003 - far more than 5000 civilian deaths.
I don't think Cameron and Obama will be as poor as Blair and Bush when it comes to planning for the post war phase.
than Libya.
As an aside, my wife is having second thoughts about Depeche Mode in November, having heard their latest album, she calls them Depressed Mode!0 -
Well I'd feel bad as anyone would, but we can't fight everyone's fight can we? If Assad were ( as an example) gassing Denmarrk as a friend and neighbour I'd say bomb him into the Stone Age but he's not. Nor do we have any real interest in Syria. It's a shame, it's a crap situation but we cannot police the whole world righting its wrongs otherwise we'd be weighing in all over the place and its not practical let alone right that we do.Ishmael_X said:
Say this debate was about intervening in Rwanda in 1994 (not that there was such a debate), and we had stayed out on the basis of your instinct, and then what happened in Rwanda, happened, how good would you feel about it? There are times when you just have to say feck it, enough is enough.welshowl said:
Whilst the gassing is of course dreadful, whoever did it, I simply struggle with why we need to get involved. Syria I just don't see as being part of our strategic interests and it's clearly not a friend and ally. My instinct says stay well clear.TheScreamingEagles said:Am I the only PBer in favour of military action in Syria?
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Depeche Mode live are amazingTwistedFireStopper said:
I'm hoping for a lottery win, pay off my mortgage,credit cards and buy the Mrs an Evoque.TheScreamingEagles said:
Don't know, hope so.TwistedFireStopper said:
But can that be done in Syria without a full scale invasion? I think Syria might be a tougher nut to crackTheScreamingEagles said:
Just regime changeTwistedFireStopper said:
So its a full scale invasion and regime change you're after, then TSE.TheScreamingEagles said:
Possibly.Sunil_Prasannan said:
But wouldn't that risk killing more innocent people than were killed by the WMD??TheScreamingEagles said:
People that use WMD on civilians deserve to bombed back to the stone age.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Why are you in favour?TheScreamingEagles said:Am I the only PBer in favour of military action in Syria?
Case in point:
Halabja, 1988 - 5000 civilian deaths
Invasion of Iraq, 2003 - far more than 5000 civilian deaths.
I don't think Cameron and Obama will be as poor as Blair and Bush when it comes to planning for the post war phase.
than Libya.
As an aside, my wife is having second thoughts about Depeche Mode in November, having heard their latest album, she calls them Depressed Mode!0 -
Oh I love Twitter - much wittier than PB now. Several laughs a minute. A UFO nut just bitched about me tweaking her tweet as *ungrammatical* = talk about missing the point.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Thanks, as you know I, hardly go on Twitter these days, I spend far too much time on herePlato said:Well said. Tweeted that.
Sunil_Prasannan said:
But wouldn't that risk killing more innocent people than were killed by the WMD??TheScreamingEagles said:
People that use WMD on civilians deserve to bombed back to the stone age.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Why are you in favour?TheScreamingEagles said:Am I the only PBer in favour of military action in Syria?
Case in point:
Halabja, 1988 - 5000 civilian deaths
Invasion of Iraq, 2003 - far more than 5000 civilian deaths.0 -
I know, having seen them times. She, on the other hand is a bit of a head banger. I've bought the tickets and paid for the hotel, so she's going, like it or not!TheScreamingEagles said:
Depeche Mode live are amazingTwistedFireStopper said:
I'm hoping for a lottery win, pay off my mortgage,credit cards and buy the Mrs an Evoque.TheScreamingEagles said:
Don't know, hope so.TwistedFireStopper said:
But can that be done in Syria without a full scale invasion? I think Syria might be a tougher nut to crackTheScreamingEagles said:
Just regime changeTwistedFireStopper said:
So its a full scale invasion and regime change you're after, then TSE.TheScreamingEagles said:
Possibly.Sunil_Prasannan said:
But wouldn't that risk killing more innocent people than were killed by the WMD??TheScreamingEagles said:
People that use WMD on civilians deserve to bombed back to the stone age.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Why are you in favour?TheScreamingEagles said:Am I the only PBer in favour of military action in Syria?
Case in point:
Halabja, 1988 - 5000 civilian deaths
Invasion of Iraq, 2003 - far more than 5000 civilian deaths.
I don't think Cameron and Obama will be as poor as Blair and Bush when it comes to planning for the post war phase.
than Libya.
As an aside, my wife is having second thoughts about Depeche Mode in November, having heard their latest album, she calls them Depressed Mode!
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Nonsense: "Should be Higher" is so uplifting! "Soothe My Soul" is classic pervy DMTwistedFireStopper said:
I'm hoping for a lottery win, pay off my mortgage,credit cards and buy the Mrs an Evoque.TheScreamingEagles said:
Don't know, hope so.TwistedFireStopper said:
But can that be done in Syria without a full scale invasion? I think Syria might be a tougher nut to crackTheScreamingEagles said:
Just regime changeTwistedFireStopper said:
So its a full scale invasion and regime change you're after, then TSE.TheScreamingEagles said:
Possibly.Sunil_Prasannan said:
But wouldn't that risk killing more innocent people than were killed by the WMD??TheScreamingEagles said:
People that use WMD on civilians deserve to bombed back to the stone age.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Why are you in favour?TheScreamingEagles said:Am I the only PBer in favour of military action in Syria?
Case in point:
Halabja, 1988 - 5000 civilian deaths
Invasion of Iraq, 2003 - far more than 5000 civilian deaths.
I don't think Cameron and Obama will be as poor as Blair and Bush when it comes to planning for the post war phase.
than Libya.
As an aside, my wife is having second thoughts about Depeche Mode in November, having heard their latest album, she calls them Depressed Mode! 0 -
Seeing as it's a war-zone with shelling i'd expect the civilians cram into basements for shelter and sleep. You could create a DIY fake chemical attack simply by backing up a lorry and using the exhaust fumes. Anyone check the bodies for carbon monoxide poisoning?0
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More likely dribbling and swivel-eyes. ;^ )Theuniondivvie said:
Does it involve saliva?tim said:
I think you know by now that on PB any mention of Doreen Lawrence elicits an immediate Pavlovian reaction.0 -
I remember recommending the hotel to youTwistedFireStopper said:
I know, having seen them times. She, on the other hand is a bit of a head banger. I've bought the tickets and paid for the hotel, so she's going, like it or not!TheScreamingEagles said:
Depeche Mode live are amazingTwistedFireStopper said:
I'm hoping for a lottery win, pay off my mortgage,credit cards and buy the Mrs an Evoque.TheScreamingEagles said:
Don't know, hope so.TwistedFireStopper said:
But can that be done in Syria without a full scale invasion? I think Syria might be a tougher nut to crackTheScreamingEagles said:
Just regime changeTwistedFireStopper said:
So its a full scale invasion and regime change you're after, then TSE.TheScreamingEagles said:
Possibly.Sunil_Prasannan said:
But wouldn't that risk killing more innocent people than were killed by the WMD??TheScreamingEagles said:
People that use WMD on civilians deserve to bombed back to the stone age.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Why are you in favour?TheScreamingEagles said:Am I the only PBer in favour of military action in Syria?
Case in point:
Halabja, 1988 - 5000 civilian deaths
Invasion of Iraq, 2003 - far more than 5000 civilian deaths.
I don't think Cameron and Obama will be as poor as Blair and Bush when it comes to planning for the post war phase.
than Libya.
As an aside, my wife is having second thoughts about Depeche Mode in November, having heard their latest album, she calls them Depressed Mode!0 -
One of the things about Libya is it's a lot of little tribes but all pretty much from the same ethnic group and religion. The conflict in Libya was mainly about different coalitions of tribes fighting over access to the oil money. Syria is also made up of lots of little tribes but they coalesce around their respective ethno-sectarian group so it's a lot more life or death for the losers.Next said:.
It didn't in Libya.TwistedFireStopper said:
I think we can all differentiate. I'd suggest that sane people are scared that the former might beget the latter.FluffyThoughts said:People seem be having difficulty differetiating between an air-policing action (planned for Syria, as in Libya) and an armoured-division deployment and subsequent failed occupation (c.f. Iraq). Needless to say one is unsurprised....
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I haven't seen the PB Hodges quoting their hero recently, has the one eyed wonder fell under a bus, or has he found another subject to bore people to death?0
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I took this picture at the O2 in 2009:TheScreamingEagles said:
Depeche Mode live are amazingTwistedFireStopper said:
I'm hoping for a lottery win, pay off my mortgage,credit cards and buy the Mrs an Evoque.TheScreamingEagles said:
Don't know, hope so.TwistedFireStopper said:
But can that be done in Syria without a full scale invasion? I think Syria might be a tougher nut to crackTheScreamingEagles said:
Just regime changeTwistedFireStopper said:
So its a full scale invasion and regime change you're after, then TSE.TheScreamingEagles said:
Possibly.Sunil_Prasannan said:
But wouldn't that risk killing more innocent people than were killed by the WMD??TheScreamingEagles said:
People that use WMD on civilians deserve to bombed back to the stone age.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Why are you in favour?TheScreamingEagles said:Am I the only PBer in favour of military action in Syria?
Case in point:
Halabja, 1988 - 5000 civilian deaths
Invasion of Iraq, 2003 - far more than 5000 civilian deaths.
I don't think Cameron and Obama will be as poor as Blair and Bush when it comes to planning for the post war phase.
than Libya.
As an aside, my wife is having second thoughts about Depeche Mode in November, having heard their latest album, she calls them Depressed Mode!
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Depeche_Mode_O2_15_12_09_wide.jpg
Unfortunately, this year I booked late and was stuck at the far side of the auditorium and my pix were rubbish!
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Good evening, everyone.
It'll be interesting to see how the debate in Parliament goes.0 -
I favour intervention in Syria. I feel we've reached the point you can look them int he eye and tell them why risking British lives (although at this stage, I would favour missiles) is necessary, or the risk of Syrian civilian casualties.0
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If the rebels had chemical weapons, wouldn't they be more likely to use them against the regime? After all, it wouldn't be long before some delusional conspiracy theorist would claim the regime had done it to themselves.MrJones said:Seeing as it's a war-zone with shelling i'd expect the civilians cram into basements for shelter and sleep. You could create a DIY fake chemical attack simply by backing up a lorry and using the exhaust fumes. Anyone check the bodies for carbon monoxide poisoning?
Occam's razor - the simplest explanation is usually the right one.0 -
@Avery
Well put Avery.
Scary though it is, this has become a cock-waving contest between the super-powers. America has made its move and is daring Russia to blink. And I think Russia probably will blink. Assad is their only solid ally in the Middle East and the Russians know America has the power to remove him very quickly, destabilising the country but robbing Russia of their ally in the process. A demonstration of willingness to act is probably a calculated move by the Americans for Russia to speak some sense to Assad, or else.0 -
Very good front page from the Indy
Nick Sutton @suttonnick 2m
Wednesday's Independent front page - "The heir to Blair" #tomorrowspaperstoday #bbcpapers #Syria pic.twitter.com/Xmg4BIALMs0 -
So what happens if we launch a few cruise missiles and Assad still wins?
Wont that make the West look even more impotent?
So isn't it likely that once the first cruise missile is launched we're heading down the regime change path.
At least Iraq had oil and was a threat to other oil producing countries so there was some realpolitik reason for regime change there.
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Classy, very classyRedRag1 said:I haven't seen the PB Hodges quoting their hero recently, has the one eyed wonder fell under a bus, or has he found another subject to bore people to death?
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What had Halabja to do with the 2003 Iraq invasion?Sunil_Prasannan said:
Case in point:
Halabja, 1988 - 5000 civilian deaths
Invasion of Iraq, 2003 - far more than 5000 civilian deaths.
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Liverpool 2 - Notts County 2
With 6 mins to go0 -
So we intervened in Afghanistan to remove Al Qaeda from there.
Now we're going to intervene in Syria on the same side as Al Qaeda.
How soon before we're intervening in Syria to remove the Al Qaeda bases which were established because of our intervention?
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Cheers!Slackbladder said:
Classy, very classyRedRag1 said:I haven't seen the PB Hodges quoting their hero recently, has the one eyed wonder fell under a bus, or has he found another subject to bore people to death?
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I wouldn't. I'd use them to try and get half a dozen US aircraft carriers on my side.No_Offence_Alan said:
If the rebels had chemical weapons, wouldn't they be more likely to use them against the regime? After all, it wouldn't be long before some delusional conspiracy theorist would claim the regime had done it to themselves.MrJones said:Seeing as it's a war-zone with shelling i'd expect the civilians cram into basements for shelter and sleep. You could create a DIY fake chemical attack simply by backing up a lorry and using the exhaust fumes. Anyone check the bodies for carbon monoxide poisoning?
Occam's razor - the simplest explanation is usually the right one.
As you say the simplest explanations are the most likely0 -
I never thought that I'd say this but well done to Nigel Farage for his stance against a Syrian intervention.0
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0
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Gordon Brown hasn't fallen under a bus has he? I know he has been anonymous and essentially being paid while AWOL, but under a bus!RedRag1 said:I haven't seen the PB Hodges quoting their hero recently, has the one eyed wonder fell under a bus, or has he found another subject to bore people to death?
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It's at times like this, with such decisions to be made, that I'm glad that I'm not PM. The pressure would overwhelm me.0
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**** Ready to post faux outrage at one eye mention ****saddened said:
Gordon Brown hasn't fallen under a bus has he? I know he has been anonymous and essentially being paid while AWOL, but under a bus!RedRag1 said:I haven't seen the PB Hodges quoting their hero recently, has the one eyed wonder fell under a bus, or has he found another subject to bore people to death?
Classy, very classy!
PS I actually laughed at that.0 -
One-eyed chaps do seem to get painted as villains. Gordon Brown, Antigonus Monopthalmus, Hannibal, the Governor in The Walking Dead...
Oh, except Nelson. That's an enormous exception.0 -
I'm not sure the French would agree.Morris_Dancer said:One-eyed chaps do seem to get painted as villains. Gordon Brown, Antigonus Monopthalmus, Hannibal, the Governor in The Walking Dead...
Oh, except Nelson. That's an enormous exception.0 -
Teddy Roosevelt was one eyedMorris_Dancer said:One-eyed chaps do seem to get painted as villains. Gordon Brown, Antigonus Monopthalmus, Hannibal, the Governor in The Walking Dead...
Oh, except Nelson. That's an enormous exception.0 -
And Polyphemus (Cyclops in the Odyssey) was a villain.0
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TSE - As a long time lurker, if memory serves me right, you are an LFC fan. Mr Toure looks buggered there.0
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The Cylons in the original series of Battlestar Galactica we're also one eyedMorris_Dancer said:And Polyphemus (Cyclops in the Odyssey) was a villain.
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He is, in 2 and a bit matches he's become a Liverpool LegendRedRag1 said:TSE - As a long time lurker, if memory serves me right, you are an LFC fan. Mr Toure looks buggered there.
I might have to give up my ticket for Sunday, we're going to get spanked.
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Davros also has one functioning eye.0
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I started writing a thread on Syria at 6.30 pm, and I still haven't finished it.
#PB is taking over my life0 -
So were the non-human looking Cylons in the reimagineered series.TheScreamingEagles said:
The Cylons in the original series of Battlestar Galactica we're also one eyedMorris_Dancer said:And Polyphemus (Cyclops in the Odyssey) was a villain.
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Who is 2007 said this?
He stated unequivocally that he will move to impeach President Bush if he bombs Iran without first gaining congressional approval.
Answer Joe Biden
http://www.seacoastonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071129/NEWS/711290180 -
If it goes to penalties, there is only one result.....it's the Liverpool way.TheScreamingEagles said:
He is, in 2 and a bit matches he's become a Liverpool LegendRedRag1 said:TSE - As a long time lurker, if memory serves me right, you are an LFC fan. Mr Toure looks buggered there.
I might have to give up my ticket for Sunday, we're going to get spanked.
That doesn't matter though......Sturridge has just scored.0 -
In our history, we've won 20 out of 22 penalty shoot outs.RedRag1 said:
If it goes to penalties, there is only one result.....it's the Liverpool way.TheScreamingEagles said:
He is, in 2 and a bit matches he's become a Liverpool LegendRedRag1 said:TSE - As a long time lurker, if memory serves me right, you are an LFC fan. Mr Toure looks buggered there.
I might have to give up my ticket for Sunday, we're going to get spanked.
That doesn't matter though......Sturridge has just scored.0 -
Cameron's bacon cheeks all over the screen on the news....urgh!
Get some make up on.0 -
Not seen either Battlestar Galactica series. I think I have a very fuzzy memory of the first series, but that was probably a repeat, and it's immensely vague.0
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I'm amazed it's not more.TheScreamingEagles said:
In our history, we've won 20 out of 22 penalty shoot outs.RedRag1 said:
If it goes to penalties, there is only one result.....it's the Liverpool way.TheScreamingEagles said:
He is, in 2 and a bit matches he's become a Liverpool LegendRedRag1 said:TSE - As a long time lurker, if memory serves me right, you are an LFC fan. Mr Toure looks buggered there.
I might have to give up my ticket for Sunday, we're going to get spanked.
That doesn't matter though......Sturridge has just scored.0 -
On BBC4 now, Peter and Dan Snow's 20th Century Battlefields — The Yom Kippur War:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b007sfdd0 -
TSEofPB @TSEofPB now
My fellow Whovians, look to the right of this picture
pic.twitter.com/qvQWhWBTrO0 -
It would be a different matter if it was Bradford and a penalty shoot out ;-)TheScreamingEagles said:
In our history, we've won 20 out of 22 penalty shoot outs.RedRag1 said:
If it goes to penalties, there is only one result.....it's the Liverpool way.TheScreamingEagles said:
He is, in 2 and a bit matches he's become a Liverpool LegendRedRag1 said:TSE - As a long time lurker, if memory serves me right, you are an LFC fan. Mr Toure looks buggered there.
I might have to give up my ticket for Sunday, we're going to get spanked.
That doesn't matter though......Sturridge has just scored.
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Leela in Futurama has one eye, but she's a good guy girl.RedRag1 said:Davros also has one functioning eye.
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Is Farage saying we should wait for confirmation of who was responsible, or is he against intervention even if it can be shown that Assad's forces were reponsible?0
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WMD was the casus belli for 2003.Theuniondivvie said:
What had Halabja to do with the 2003 Iraq invasion?Sunil_Prasannan said:
Case in point:
Halabja, 1988 - 5000 civilian deaths
Invasion of Iraq, 2003 - far more than 5000 civilian deaths.0 -
It finishes the full circle.another_richard said:So we intervened in Afghanistan to remove Al Qaeda from there.
Now we're going to intervene in Syria on the same side as Al Qaeda.
How soon before we're intervening in Syria to remove the Al Qaeda bases which were established because of our intervention?
We [ the CIA actually ] helped the Mujahiddin go to Afghanistan in the first place. It included a young idealist by the name of Osama Bin Laden. Of course, the Ruskies were the enemy then.0 -
Nigel Farage has warned Britain cannot go to war with Syria "on a whim," stating "horrible though it is, there is nothing the British military can do to make things better."Andy_JS said:Is Farage saying we should wait for confirmation of who was responsible, or is he against intervention even if it can be shown that Assad's forces were reponsible?
In a sensational interview on the state-run TV channel Russia Today, the UK Independence Party leader slammed calls for intervention over the escalating crisis, and warned Britain's "keenness" for involvement "could lead to something far bigger."
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/08/27/nigel-farage-syria-war_n_3824175.html?utm_hp_ref=uk
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I remember those players with double barrel names in the 80's and 90's who kept scoringTheScreamingEagles said:
In our history, we've won 20 out of 22 penalty shoot outs.RedRag1 said:
If it goes to penalties, there is only one result.....it's the Liverpool way.TheScreamingEagles said:
He is, in 2 and a bit matches he's become a Liverpool LegendRedRag1 said:TSE - As a long time lurker, if memory serves me right, you are an LFC fan. Mr Toure looks buggered there.
I might have to give up my ticket for Sunday, we're going to get spanked.
That doesn't matter though......Sturridge has just scored.
Molby (pen) and Nichol (pen)
Molby scored 42 pens for Liverpool....amazing.0 -
The Mackem Messi scores an awesome goal0
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Sun poll
50% opposed to missiles
74% opposed to troops0 -
Bah, that means I need to update the morning thread once again.RodCrosby said:Sun poll
50% opposed to missiles
74% opposed to troops
Do you have a link?0 -
Mr. Rag, you would be wise not to judge a man by his appearance. Alexander had a twisted neck, Caesar pioneered the combover, and Hannibal (as mentioned below) only had the one eye.
On a related note: Alexander the Great's eyes were different colours.0 -
Tom Newton Dunn @tnewtondunn 7m
EXCL: Brits are against missile strikes on Syria by a big majority of 2 to 1 (50% v 25%); YouGov/Sun poll. 1st since new crisis.
and
Tom Newton Dunn @tnewtondunn 44s
...and majority of voters for all parties also oppose Syria missile strikes; Tories 45-33%, Labour 54-26%, Lib Dems 47-27%, UKIP 68-22%.0 -
'.and majority of voters for all parties also oppose Syria missile strikes; Tories 45-33%, Labour 54-26%, Lib Dems 47-27%, UKIP 68-22%.' tom newtondunnTheScreamingEagles said:
Bah, that means I need to update the morning thread once again.RodCrosby said:Sun poll
50% opposed to missiles
74% opposed to troops
Do you have a link?
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ThanksCarola said:
'.and majority of voters for all parties also oppose Syria missile strikes; Tories 45-33%, Labour 54-26%, Lib Dems 47-27%, UKIP 68-22%.' tom newtondunnTheScreamingEagles said:
Bah, that means I need to update the morning thread once again.RodCrosby said:Sun poll
50% opposed to missiles
74% opposed to troops
Do you have a link?0 -
Tom Newton Dunn needs to learn the difference between a majority and a plurality0
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Not judging Hodges by his appearance, just by his repetitive articles. I am sure he will be back to his boring best soon.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Rag, you would be wise not to judge a man by his appearance. Alexander had a twisted neck, Caesar pioneered the combover, and Hannibal (as mentioned below) only had the one eye.
On a related note: Alexander the Great's eyes were different colours.0 -
You almost forgot the part not very long ago at all when the U.S. and the west rendered prisoners to Assad for him to torture. Of course that back when he was a 'good bad guy', or whatever it is they call their numerous middle east dictator 'frenemies'. (used to just be "our bastard" IIRC)surbiton said:
It finishes the full circle.another_richard said:So we intervened in Afghanistan to remove Al Qaeda from there.
Now we're going to intervene in Syria on the same side as Al Qaeda.
How soon before we're intervening in Syria to remove the Al Qaeda bases which were established because of our intervention?
We [ the CIA actually ] helped the Mujahiddin go to Afghanistan in the first place. It included a young idealist by the name of Osama Bin Laden. Of course, the Ruskies were the enemy then.0 -
Been having a good laugh at Liverpool tonight. Excellent preparation for the weekend.
But I haven't recovered from the gloom of last night. If we play with that degree of caution on a regular basis we will be winning nothing. Moyes was a very poor choice and he already looks out of his depth.
And we still don't have an attacking midfielder worth his salt. Bah.0 -
Indeed, Mr. Eagles. It's that sort of statistical ignorance which leads to political idiocy.
That said, the underlying sentiment he refers to is broadly accurate.
Mr. Rag, repetition is often a hardy plant that grows in a desert of wit.0 -
Golly, 15 years to build up a head of moral outrage. The USA with the docile complicity of UK governments was blaming Iran for Halabja till the mid nineties (not that that got them off their lardy asses to do anything about it). Is casus belli shorthand for believing any old CIA lies when it suits?Sunil_Prasannan said:
WMD was the casus belli for 2003.Theuniondivvie said:
What had Halabja to do with the 2003 Iraq invasion?Sunil_Prasannan said:
Case in point:
Halabja, 1988 - 5000 civilian deaths
Invasion of Iraq, 2003 - far more than 5000 civilian deaths.
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From tonight's Sun
Brits also still oppose enforcing a no-fly-zone by 42-33%, sending defensive weapons by 50-23%, sending full-scale weapons including tanks by 61-13%, and deploying UK troops by 74% to 9%.0 -
I think Farage has got this right. Opposing an intervention in a mid east war tends to be vindicated very quickly. Getting involved in a mid east war tends to destroy an otherwise successful political career.
It is interesting that Clegg and Cameron both used the words Legal and Proportionate. As there is no case that an intervention is self defense then it is most likely an illegal war without a UN resolution, which surely is not going to happen.
Rather than squaring up to Russia, we should be trying to get them onside. Assad would fall quickly without Russian backing. Getting the sensible wing of the FSA to agree to continued Russian naval base may be a good start. The Russians would drop Assad if they could have continuing influence, and no British forces required...RodCrosby said:Sun poll
50% opposed to missiles
74% opposed to troops0 -
You're signing Fellani for 22mDavidL said:Been having a good laugh at Liverpool tonight. Excellent preparation for the weekend.
But I haven't recovered from the gloom of last night. If we play with that degree of caution on a regular basis we will be winning nothing. Moyes was a very poor choice and he already looks out of his depth.
And we still don't have an attacking midfielder worth his salt. Bah.0 -
Picking up earlier comments on the thread we studied "I have a dream" in my advocacy training. It is indeed all about repetition and rhythm. Quite brilliant but why anyone would want others to read out the words is beyond me.
It is almost as daft as recalling Parliament for a debate on bombing an arab country that has nothing to do with us. I really cannot see any upside for Cameron in this. Difficult problem, not easy to deal with but keeping the head down was the sensible option.0 -
@Fenster
America has made its move and is daring Russia to blink. And I think Russia probably will blink.
Fenster
When I first visited Moscow on business in the mid 1980s, I met with the head of the representative office of one of the UK's largest banks. I was hoping for advice on doing business in a country which was very different from any I had encountered before.
'Alan' arrived late for our appointment following a very frustrating meeting with Vnesheconombank (The USSR Bank for Foreign Economic Affairs). He had been negotiating an agreement with the bank for nearly two years and had been told, no doubt for the umpteenth time, that the papers would be signed that morning. They weren't. And the reason given by his Russian counterpart was that Alan had reneged on a promise made at a previous meeting to provide Vnesheconombank with a box of a dozen liquid Tippex bottles.
But all this digresses from the main story. What Alan told me was never to take at face value any position taken by a Russian counterpart. It could change to its diametric opposite at any time and would do so often during the negotiation without any logical consistency. When I asked whether anything ever got agreed in Russia, he answered:
"Oh Yes! But never before the Russians are ready to agree. What happens is that you go into a small room for a few hours and fight. Blood is spilt all over the walls. And just when you think nothing will ever be agreed, you will be told that everything has. Then all will exit the room smiling. And the Russians will always keep to the agreement whatever conflicting positions they might have taken during the negotiation."
This was as good as any advice I got in twenty years of doing business in both communist and 'democratic' Russia. I experienced the formula many times.
So the prospects of a volte-face by the Russians on Syria are quite reasonable. When Putin decides to change every Russian official will follow in a snap. There will be a quick and hard negotiation with the US and a new position announced. And the Russians will go about their business smiling and denying that any prior contrary position had ever been taken.
Communists or not, the Russians haven't and won't change.
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He's against, even then.Andy_JS said:Is Farage saying we should wait for confirmation of who was responsible, or is he against intervention even if it can be shown that Assad's forces were reponsible?
"My view is that what we’ve done in Afghanistan, in Iraq for many decades, whenever Brittan got involved in the Middle East, we tend to make thing worse, not better, and horrible though it is, ghastly, there are some crimes that are being committed and there is nothing the British military can do, in my view, to make things better. "
http://rt.com/op-edge/farage-syria-atack-uk-067/
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The reimagineered series was much better than the first as it actually had characters and plots. AFAICR (and it was before my time) the original series was TV's reaction to Star Wars. It got particularly pants when they finally reached Earth for the final season.Morris_Dancer said:Not seen either Battlestar Galactica series. I think I have a very fuzzy memory of the first series, but that was probably a repeat, and it's immensely vague.
As, coincidentally enough, did the reimagineered series.0 -
One brilliant game a year doesn't cut it I am afraid.tim said:
KagawaDavidL said:Been having a good laugh at Liverpool tonight. Excellent preparation for the weekend.
But I haven't recovered from the gloom of last night. If we play with that degree of caution on a regular basis we will be winning nothing. Moyes was a very poor choice and he already looks out of his depth.
And we still don't have an attacking midfielder worth his salt. Bah.
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Syria. I reported about 5pm or so today that there was a not often seen flight from Latakia Airport to Beirut airport.
Lebanese media sources report indeed that families of Syrian officials flew into Beirut and dispersed.
There are also reports a plane has turned up in Tehran with some of Assads family. No idea if he's on it.
In Damascus the rush to prepare for strikes has continued with the usual move of putting artillery in the middle of blocks of flats, many troops have eschewed armoured gear for vans.
Clearly no-one expects this thing to be stopped at the last.
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Now now, just commenting on his Danish complexion.....comes across as though he is all flustered.saddened said:
Guessing, you're not quite the picture of physical perfection that you seem to feel that anyone in the public eye should be. Give it a rest, it makes you look a bit of a tit.RedRag1 said:Cameron's bacon cheeks all over the screen on the news....urgh!
Get some make up on.0 -
The Sandalistas more gung ho than Labour supporters. Hmmm.Carola said:
'.and majority of voters for all parties also oppose Syria missile strikes; Tories 45-33%, Labour 54-26%, Lib Dems 47-27%, UKIP 68-22%.' tom newtondunnTheScreamingEagles said:
Bah, that means I need to update the morning thread once again.RodCrosby said:Sun poll
50% opposed to missiles
74% opposed to troops
Do you have a link?0 -
Your own posts seem to be a tad on the repetitive side. You don't even cut it as a troll. Give up.RedRag1 said:
Not judging Hodges by his appearance, just by his repetitive articles. I am sure he will be back to his boring best soon.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Rag, you would be wise not to judge a man by his appearance. Alexander had a twisted neck, Caesar pioneered the combover, and Hannibal (as mentioned below) only had the one eye.
On a related note: Alexander the Great's eyes were different colours.
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I've been in favour of military strikes against Syria since the details of the chemical weapon attacks have come out, and am pleased the US looks to be moving to this course of action.
My reasoning is quite simple: the Syrian regime has been trying to push the boundaries of what it can get away with for months now - starting off with small chemical attacks, using illegal SCUD missiles against civilian populations and building up to the most recent atrocity. Doing nothing in response to this gives Assad a free reign to carry on using chemical weapons against civilians. Sanctions and political solutions are meaningless in the middle of a long-running civil war. The only thing the West can do to deter the regime from repeating their actions are strikes that hurt, even if they do not alter the balance of the war.
It is more of a warning shot / a precedent for future regimes considering the use of chemical weapons, than anything analogous to the Iraq or Afghanistan conflicts. So, speaking a Lib Dem who opposed Iraq, I'm very much in favour of the limited military action being discussed.0 -
So an interesting outcome on the cards.
The end of the LibDems or the end of the Coalition?0 -
Oh dear, the PB Hodges close rank.I am all offended.Ishmael_X said:
Your own posts seem to be a tad on the repetitive side. You don't even cut it as a troll. Give up.RedRag1 said:
Not judging Hodges by his appearance, just by his repetitive articles. I am sure he will be back to his boring best soon.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Rag, you would be wise not to judge a man by his appearance. Alexander had a twisted neck, Caesar pioneered the combover, and Hannibal (as mentioned below) only had the one eye.
On a related note: Alexander the Great's eyes were different colours.
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off topic.
US states ranked by charitable donations.
http://philanthropy.com/article/Generosity-in-the-States/133707/
US states ranked by religiousness.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/114022/state-states-importance-religion.aspx#2
http://www.pewforum.org/2009/12/21/how-religious-is-your-state/
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Agreed.Respite said:I've been in favour of military strikes against Syria since the details of the chemical weapon attacks have come out, and am pleased the US looks to be moving to this course of action.
My reasoning is quite simple: the Syrian regime has been trying to push the boundaries of what it can get away with for months now - starting off with small chemical attacks, using illegal SCUD missiles against civilian populations and building up to the most recent atrocity. Doing nothing in response to this gives Assad a free reign to carry on using chemical weapons against civilians. Sanctions and political solutions are meaningless in the middle of a long-running civil war. The only thing the West can do to deter the regime from repeating their actions are strikes that hurt, even if they do not alter the balance of the war.
It is more of a warning shot / a precedent for future regimes considering the use of chemical weapons, than anything analogous to the Iraq or Afghanistan conflicts. So, speaking a Lib Dem who opposed Iraq, I'm very much in favour of the limited military action being discussed.
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He came with an excellent reputation and there has been the odd flash but not nearly enough. Many games he has been annoymous. Fabregas would have been a good option but that looks like it was never on and he probably used MU to get assurances of game time. Ditto Ronaldo with his new contract. Moyes has been played for a fool this summer and it is ominous.tim said:
Two brilliant years in a much better side than United doesDavidL said:
One brilliant game a year doesn't cut it I am afraid.tim said:
KagawaDavidL said:Been having a good laugh at Liverpool tonight. Excellent preparation for the weekend.
But I haven't recovered from the gloom of last night. If we play with that degree of caution on a regular basis we will be winning nothing. Moyes was a very poor choice and he already looks out of his depth.
And we still don't have an attacking midfielder worth his salt. Bah.
"Kagawa is arguably too sophisticated for the Premier League. He excelled in the Bundesliga, the best league on the continent the last three years, showcasing the kind of enviable energy and seamless passing which elevated Germany's two biggest clubs to the Champions League final this year. English football's regression, however, continues and Kagawa is a casualty of the backward-thinking, as the emphasis on a player's build rather than their ability dominates."
http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/3822709
All good things come to an end. Ask Labour re Blair.
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This discussion has been closed.