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Mirror
Julie Burchill: Labour Party "Jew-hatred" is cynical bid for Muslim vote https://t.co/OAEWkwuqOO https://t.co/zjR7ufWQI30 -
Boom (as HMQ said recently)Plato_Says said:Mirror
Julie Burchill: Labour Party "Jew-hatred" is cynical bid for Muslim vote https://t.co/OAEWkwuqOO https://t.co/zjR7ufWQI30 -
I can imagine activists in 1973/74 trying to convince themselves that Heath was doing something similar. It must have been a bewildering time.JohnO said:
I've been a Tory activist since 1974, possibly before you were born, perhaps even your parents, and Cameron is leading a model centre-right Tory government.MP_SE said:
Surely this is some sort of typo and you meant "centre left"?JohnO said:I don't give the proverbial flying thinggy what Cable or any other grasping LibDem toad thinks (hence the jubilation this time last May): Cameron couldn't be clearer that Leave means leave and that's to his credit, the more so since he will leave politics with a reputation ruined.
Which, in part, explains why I shall be patriotically be voting Remain. Now, above all now, with the existential threat that Corbyn and his gang of thugs, poses to this country, we need a mainstream, moderate centre right government to remain in office for at least the next 10 years until a viable left of centre alternative re-emerges from the dismal primeval slime that is presently 'Labour'.0 -
As I recall the people of Twickenham did select their own representative, it's just that at least one of those people decided their vote on a basis some on here do not like but which is perfectly legitimate - people are free to choose how they decide who to vote for, and they might well pick a stupid reason. I personally think someone deciding how to vote on the basis of a poster with a picture and maybe 5 words is also pretty dumb, but there remains the possibility, however slight, that someone was indeed swayed by such a thing, since the whole point is they add to the weight of reasons to vote a particular way, and so might tip the balance.Charles said:
Your Dad thought highly enough of him to cast aside any concern for the right of the people of Twickenham to select their own representative, free from outside interferencercs1000 said:
Man of no importance, who is member of party of no importance, says something about which he has no control, or even influence.
Vince Cable is a washed up fool. And has been for about two decades.0 -
"Cameron couldn't be clearer that Leave means leave and that's to his credit... "
Indeed it is. Unfortunately Cameron has a history of saying one thing but not actually following through with actions that match (e.g. his 2013 speech on the EU and where we are today).0 -
What's the old saying about this sins of the fathers?Charles said:
Your Dad thought highly enough of him to cast aside any concern for the right of the people of Twickenham to select their own representative, free from outside interferencercs1000 said:
Man of no importance, who is member of party of no importance, says something about which he has no control, or even influence.
Vince Cable is a washed up fool. And has been for about two decades.
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oxfordsimon said:
Boom (as HMQ said recently)Plato_Says said:Mirror
Julie Burchill: Labour Party "Jew-hatred" is cynical bid for Muslim vote https://t.co/OAEWkwuqOO https://t.co/zjR7ufWQI3A whopping 13 years ago, I wrote a farewell piece in the Guardian explaining that I was leaving my job on the newspaper – the established voice of the British Left – due to what I saw as its ugly, anti-Jew rhetoric and accompanying Islamophilia (the final straw was when they ran an opinion piece by Osama bin Laden).
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Making it all the more hilarious some in his own party think he and his Chancellor are acting like socialists.JohnO said:
Cameron is leading a model centre-right Tory government.MP_SE said:
Surely this is some sort of typo and you meant "centre left"?JohnO said:I don't give the proverbial flying thinggy what Cable or any other grasping LibDem toad thinks (hence the jubilation this time last May): Cameron couldn't be clearer that Leave means leave and that's to his credit, the more so since he will leave politics with a reputation ruined.
Which, in part, explains why I shall be patriotically be voting Remain. Now, above all now, with the existential threat that Corbyn and his gang of thugs, poses to this country, we need a mainstream, moderate centre right government to remain in office for at least the next 10 years until a viable left of centre alternative re-emerges from the dismal primeval slime that is presently 'Labour'.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/03/if-wiltshire-tories-regard-george-osborne-as-a-socialist-he-has-a-problem/
I do like the current trend of Blair really being a Tory and Cameron a LD (saw that one four years ago, but it seems more common now).0 -
One of the main groups marching today when Corbyn spoke:
"Of course, in opposing the European Union, socialists find themselves in extremely nauseating company – from the anti-immigrant, xenophobic and islamophobic sections of society, to the little Englanders harking back to the imperial glory days when Britannia ruled the waves all on its little own. The little Englanders imagine that it is somehow possible for that glory, if you can call it that (not everybody would agree), to be restored under the leadership of the right political party."
http://www.cpgb-ml.org/index.php?secName=proletarian&subName=display&art=1190
Do they mean Hug-a-Hitler Ken?0 -
I suspect we may be on to 186 by Christmas.kle4 said:Totally off topic, but random wikipedia fact of the day, apparently Greece has had 185 PMs since the foundation of the first hellenic republic in 1822. That seems like a hell of a lot of PMs - the words 'caretaker government' seem to crop up a lot.
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Compared to the ascendant Bennery and hard leftism that Harold Wilson did bugger all to resist post 1972, Heath was not the ogre or traitor that is now apparently the conventional wisdom. But, yes, they were bewildering times as the post war consensus of Keynesian demand management/full employment slowly unraveled.runnymede said:
I can imagine activists in 1973/74 trying to convince themselves that Heath was doing something similar. It must have been a bewildering time.JohnO said:
I've been a Tory activist since 1974, possibly before you were born, perhaps even your parents, and Cameron is leading a model centre-right Tory government.MP_SE said:
Surely this is some sort of typo and you meant "centre left"?JohnO said:I don't give the proverbial flying thinggy what Cable or any other grasping LibDem toad thinks (hence the jubilation this time last May): Cameron couldn't be clearer that Leave means leave and that's to his credit, the more so since he will leave politics with a reputation ruined.
Which, in part, explains why I shall be patriotically be voting Remain. Now, above all now, with the existential threat that Corbyn and his gang of thugs, poses to this country, we need a mainstream, moderate centre right government to remain in office for at least the next 10 years until a viable left of centre alternative re-emerges from the dismal primeval slime that is presently 'Labour'.0 -
Said piece was sourced, and published, by then comment editor, one S. Milne, who retains an 'absent on leave' arrangement with the newspaper. I believe this piece caused arguments in the newsroom.Plato_Says said:oxfordsimon said:
Boom (as HMQ said recently)Plato_Says said:Mirror
Julie Burchill: Labour Party "Jew-hatred" is cynical bid for Muslim vote https://t.co/OAEWkwuqOO https://t.co/zjR7ufWQI3A whopping 13 years ago, I wrote a farewell piece in the Guardian explaining that I was leaving my job on the newspaper – the established voice of the British Left – due to what I saw as its ugly, anti-Jew rhetoric and accompanying Islamophilia (the final straw was when they ran an opinion piece by Osama bin Laden).
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No, he really isn't. He is leading (after a fashion) a fairly incompetent managerialist government with no actual principles, but lots and lots of spin.JohnO said:
I've been a Tory activist since 1974, possibly before you were born, perhaps even your parents, and Cameron is leading a model centre-right Tory government.MP_SE said:
Surely this is some sort of typo and you meant "centre left"?JohnO said:I don't give the proverbial flying thinggy what Cable or any other grasping LibDem toad thinks (hence the jubilation this time last May): Cameron couldn't be clearer that Leave means leave and that's to his credit, the more so since he will leave politics with a reputation ruined.
Which, in part, explains why I shall be patriotically be voting Remain. Now, above all now, with the existential threat that Corbyn and his gang of thugs, poses to this country, we need a mainstream, moderate centre right government to remain in office for at least the next 10 years until a viable left of centre alternative re-emerges from the dismal primeval slime that is presently 'Labour'.0 -
It is to their eternal shame that Labour is now run by Milne. Utterly shameful.rottenborough said:
Said piece was sourced, and published, by then comment editor, one S. Milne, who retains an 'absent on leave' arrangement with the newspaper. I believe this piece caused arguments in the newsroom.0 -
Come to think of it, now you mention it, I personally cannot recall what the old saying is. Apparently God used to consider sons responsible for the sins of the father given we were punished with Original Sin, but I think The Jesus took a more forgiving view.rcs1000 said:
What's the old saying about this sins of the fathers?Charles said:
Your Dad thought highly enough of him to cast aside any concern for the right of the people of Twickenham to select their own representative, free from outside interferencercs1000 said:
Man of no importance, who is member of party of no importance, says something about which he has no control, or even influence.
Vince Cable is a washed up fool. And has been for about two decades.
With apologies to any biblical scholars.0 -
Pity trying to learn them all - I cannot name more than a dozen PMs I suspect, and I'd be screwed trying to put them in order.rcs1000 said:
I suspect we may be on to 186 by Christmas.kle4 said:Totally off topic, but random wikipedia fact of the day, apparently Greece has had 185 PMs since the foundation of the first hellenic republic in 1822. That seems like a hell of a lot of PMs - the words 'caretaker government' seem to crop up a lot.
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Yes there's a bit of list now isn't there...HurstLlama said:"Cameron couldn't be clearer that Leave means leave and that's to his credit... "
Indeed it is. Unfortunately Cameron has a history of saying one thing but not actually following through with actions that match (e.g. his 2013 speech on the EU and where we are today).
Referendum on Lisbon...
...Immigration to tens of thousands...
...referendum 'lock'...
...'we will reclaim powers from Brussels'...
...'real change in Europe'.
It's all so much empty rhetoric.0 -
But as a kipper, you would say that, wouldn't you.HurstLlama said:
No, he really isn't. He is leading (after a fashion) a fairly incompetent managerialist government with no actual principles, but lots and lots of spin.JohnO said:
I've been a Tory activist since 1974, possibly before you were born, perhaps even your parents, and Cameron is leading a model centre-right Tory government.MP_SE said:
Surely this is some sort of typo and you meant "centre left"?JohnO said:I don't give the proverbial flying thinggy what Cable or any other grasping LibDem toad thinks (hence the jubilation this time last May): Cameron couldn't be clearer that Leave means leave and that's to his credit, the more so since he will leave politics with a reputation ruined.
Which, in part, explains why I shall be patriotically be voting Remain. Now, above all now, with the existential threat that Corbyn and his gang of thugs, poses to this country, we need a mainstream, moderate centre right government to remain in office for at least the next 10 years until a viable left of centre alternative re-emerges from the dismal primeval slime that is presently 'Labour'.0 -
...and he's doing so well: judging by the five days of front page headlines about the exact details of Hitler's Final Solution circa 1932.oxfordsimon said:
It is to their eternal shame that Labour is now run by Milne. Utterly shameful.rottenborough said:
Said piece was sourced, and published, by then comment editor, one S. Milne, who retains an 'absent on leave' arrangement with the newspaper. I believe this piece caused arguments in the newsroom.0 -
If we cast aside his Eurofanaticism (Europhile seems so weak a work), there was much to admire about the Selsdon Man project. The 1970 Conservative Prospectus seems, in parts, more radical than the 1979 one. But Heath was hit by a combination of strikes, the first oil crisis, and the rise of the Orangemen. I do wonder if oil prices had been falling, and if the country had been better prepared for the coal miner's strike (both of which were true a decade later), if we might not have a different view of Mr Heath.JohnO said:
Compared to the ascendant Bennery and hard leftism that Harold Wilson did bugger all to resist post 1972, Heath was not the ogre or traitor that is now apparently the conventional wisdom. But, yes, they were bewildering times as the post war consensus of Keynesian demand management/full employment slowly unraveled.runnymede said:
I can imagine activists in 1973/74 trying to convince themselves that Heath was doing something similar. It must have been a bewildering time.JohnO said:
I've been a Tory activist since 1974, possibly before you were born, perhaps even your parents, and Cameron is leading a model centre-right Tory government.MP_SE said:
Surely this is some sort of typo and you meant "centre left"?JohnO said:I don't give the proverbial flying thinggy what Cable or any other grasping LibDem toad thinks (hence the jubilation this time last May): Cameron couldn't be clearer that Leave means leave and that's to his credit, the more so since he will leave politics with a reputation ruined.
Which, in part, explains why I shall be patriotically be voting Remain. Now, above all now, with the existential threat that Corbyn and his gang of thugs, poses to this country, we need a mainstream, moderate centre right government to remain in office for at least the next 10 years until a viable left of centre alternative re-emerges from the dismal primeval slime that is presently 'Labour'.0 -
Plato_Says said:
Mirror
Julie Burchill: Labour Party "Jew-hatred" is cynical bid for Muslim vote https://t.co/OAEWkwuqOO https://t.co/zjR7ufWQI3
To which the hard-left response will no doubt be 'Tory scum'.Julie Burchill said:There are 230,000 Jews in this country and two million Muslims. If the Labour party was currently committing self-immolation for purely ideological reasons, it would be tragic enough.
But the fact that they are doing it cynically, as well – to win the biggest group of voters – compounds their catastrophe.
I am torn between feeling sad that the Labour Party I was brought up in is dying by its own hand and feeling glad that this brain-dead zombie which calls itself a political movement will soon be finished.0 -
I am not a member of any political party. Now how about engaging with what I said rather than worrying about me as an individual.JohnO said:
But as a kipper, you would say that, wouldn't you.HurstLlama said:
No, he really isn't. He is leading (after a fashion) a fairly incompetent managerialist government with no actual principles, but lots and lots of spin.JohnO said:
I've been a Tory activist since 1974, possibly before you were born, perhaps even your parents, and Cameron is leading a model centre-right Tory government.MP_SE said:
Surely this is some sort of typo and you meant "centre left"?JohnO said:I don't give the proverbial flying thinggy what Cable or any other grasping LibDem toad thinks (hence the jubilation this time last May): Cameron couldn't be clearer that Leave means leave and that's to his credit, the more so since he will leave politics with a reputation ruined.
Which, in part, explains why I shall be patriotically be voting Remain. Now, above all now, with the existential threat that Corbyn and his gang of thugs, poses to this country, we need a mainstream, moderate centre right government to remain in office for at least the next 10 years until a viable left of centre alternative re-emerges from the dismal primeval slime that is presently 'Labour'.0 -
She is accused of turning Tory in one of the two comments on the piece, but I feel like newspaper comment sections are their own special little world, right and left.williamglenn said:Plato_Says said:Mirror
Julie Burchill: Labour Party "Jew-hatred" is cynical bid for Muslim vote https://t.co/OAEWkwuqOO https://t.co/zjR7ufWQI3
To which the hard-left response will no doubt be 'Tory scum'.Julie Burchill said:There are 230,000 Jews in this country and two million Muslims. If the Labour party was currently committing self-immolation for purely ideological reasons, it would be tragic enough.
But the fact that they are doing it cynically, as well – to win the biggest group of voters – compounds their catastrophe.
I am torn between feeling sad that the Labour Party I was brought up in is dying by its own hand and feeling glad that this brain-dead zombie which calls itself a political movement will soon be finished.0 -
It's amazing how many experts there are on the Haavara agreement all of a suddenrottenborough said:
...and he's doing so well: judging by the five days of front page headlines about the exact details of Hitler's Final Solution circa 1932.oxfordsimon said:
It is to their eternal shame that Labour is now run by Milne. Utterly shameful.rottenborough said:
Said piece was sourced, and published, by then comment editor, one S. Milne, who retains an 'absent on leave' arrangement with the newspaper. I believe this piece caused arguments in the newsroom.
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They're so scurillously effective in winning votes that they're going to cease to exist?williamglenn said:Plato_Says said:Mirror
Julie Burchill: Labour Party "Jew-hatred" is cynical bid for Muslim vote https://t.co/OAEWkwuqOO https://t.co/zjR7ufWQI3
To which the hard-left response will no doubt be 'Tory scum'.Julie Burchill said:There are 230,000 Jews in this country and two million Muslims. If the Labour party was currently committing self-immolation for purely ideological reasons, it would be tragic enough.
But the fact that they are doing it cynically, as well – to win the biggest group of voters – compounds their catastrophe.
I am torn between feeling sad that the Labour Party I was brought up in is dying by its own hand and feeling glad that this brain-dead zombie which calls itself a political movement will soon be finished.0 -
And the biggest laugh(lie) was this -runnymede said:
Yes there's a bit of list now isn't there...HurstLlama said:"Cameron couldn't be clearer that Leave means leave and that's to his credit... "
Indeed it is. Unfortunately Cameron has a history of saying one thing but not actually following through with actions that match (e.g. his 2013 speech on the EU and where we are today).
Referendum on Lisbon...
...Immigration to tens of thousands...
...referendum 'lock'...
...'we will reclaim powers from Brussels'...
...'real change in Europe'.
It's all so much empty rhetoric.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/nov/07/david-cameron-exit-warning-eu-reform0 -
Absolutely. I didn't give a flying fig about what Cable said even when he was an MP. Nor did anyone else. Why are the Leavers suddenly having orgasms over his ramblings?JohnO said:I don't give the proverbial flying thinggy what Cable or any other grasping LibDem toad thinks (hence the jubilation this time last May): Cameron couldn't be clearer that Leave means leave and that's to his credit, the more so since he will leave politics with a reputation ruined.
Which, in part, explains why I shall be patriotically be voting Remain. Now, above all now, with the existential threat that Corbyn and his gang of thugs, poses to this country, we need a mainstream, moderate centre right government to remain in office for at least the next 10 years until a viable left of centre alternative re-emerges from the dismal primeval slime that is presently 'Labour'.0 -
In his very minimal defence, not that I want him to be able to clamp down on this story, but that's really down to Ken, isn't it? Short of gagging the man, what could Milne have done? Poor dear.rottenborough said:
...and he's doing so well: judging by the five days of front page headlines about the exact details of Hitler's Final Solution circa 1932.oxfordsimon said:
It is to their eternal shame that Labour is now run by Milne. Utterly shameful.rottenborough said:
Said piece was sourced, and published, by then comment editor, one S. Milne, who retains an 'absent on leave' arrangement with the newspaper. I believe this piece caused arguments in the newsroom.0 -
Panic in the remain camp I see - lolStark_Dawning said:
Absolutely. I didn't give a flying fig about what Cable said even when he was an MP. Nor did anyone else. Why are the Leavers suddenly having orgasms over his ramblings?JohnO said:I don't give the proverbial flying thinggy what Cable or any other grasping LibDem toad thinks (hence the jubilation this time last May): Cameron couldn't be clearer that Leave means leave and that's to his credit, the more so since he will leave politics with a reputation ruined.
Which, in part, explains why I shall be patriotically be voting Remain. Now, above all now, with the existential threat that Corbyn and his gang of thugs, poses to this country, we need a mainstream, moderate centre right government to remain in office for at least the next 10 years until a viable left of centre alternative re-emerges from the dismal primeval slime that is presently 'Labour'.0 -
I agree with all that, but JohnO is correct in describing it is a centre-right incompetent government.HurstLlama said:
No, he really isn't. He is leading (after a fashion) a fairly incompetent managerialist government with no actual principles, but lots and lots of spin.JohnO said:
I've been a Tory activist since 1974, possibly before you were born, perhaps even your parents, and Cameron is leading a model centre-right Tory government.MP_SE said:
Surely this is some sort of typo and you meant "centre left"?JohnO said:I don't give the proverbial flying thinggy what Cable or any other grasping LibDem toad thinks (hence the jubilation this time last May): Cameron couldn't be clearer that Leave means leave and that's to his credit, the more so since he will leave politics with a reputation ruined.
Which, in part, explains why I shall be patriotically be voting Remain. Now, above all now, with the existential threat that Corbyn and his gang of thugs, poses to this country, we need a mainstream, moderate centre right government to remain in office for at least the next 10 years until a viable left of centre alternative re-emerges from the dismal primeval slime that is presently 'Labour'.0 -
I'm a Leaver, and I don't believe Vince Cable speaks for anyone except himself and his cat, and I'm not sure about the cat.Tykejohnno said:
Panic in the remain camp I see - lolStark_Dawning said:
Absolutely. I didn't give a flying fig about what Cable said even when he was an MP. Nor did anyone else. Why are the Leavers suddenly having orgasms over his ramblings?JohnO said:I don't give the proverbial flying thinggy what Cable or any other grasping LibDem toad thinks (hence the jubilation this time last May): Cameron couldn't be clearer that Leave means leave and that's to his credit, the more so since he will leave politics with a reputation ruined.
Which, in part, explains why I shall be patriotically be voting Remain. Now, above all now, with the existential threat that Corbyn and his gang of thugs, poses to this country, we need a mainstream, moderate centre right government to remain in office for at least the next 10 years until a viable left of centre alternative re-emerges from the dismal primeval slime that is presently 'Labour'.0 -
Well yes, the 1970 programme did look good. Which only made what actually happened (including attempts by a 'Conservative' government to control almost every price and wage in the country and the ridiculous, naive pump-priming of 1972-73) even more dreadful.rcs1000 said:
If we cast aside his Eurofanaticism (Europhile seems so weak a work), there was much to admire about the Selsdon Man project. The 1970 Conservative Prospectus seems, in parts, more radical than the 1979 one. But Heath was hit by a combination of strikes, the first oil crisis, and the rise of the Orangemen. I do wonder if oil prices had been falling, and if the country had been better prepared for the coal miner's strike (both of which were true a decade later), if we might not have a different view of Mr Heath.JohnO said:
Compared to the ascendant Bennery and hard leftism that Harold Wilson did bugger all to resist post 1972, Heath was not the ogre or traitor that is now apparently the conventional wisdom. But, yes, they were bewildering times as the post war consensus of Keynesian demand management/full employment slowly unraveled.runnymede said:
I can imagine activists in 1973/74 trying to convince themselves that Heath was doing something similar. It must have been a bewildering time.JohnO said:
I've been a Tory activist since 1974, possibly before you were born, perhaps even your parents, and Cameron is leading a model centre-right Tory government.MP_SE said:
Surely this is some sort of typo and you meant "centre left"?JohnO said:I don't give the proverbial flying thinggy what Cable or any other grasping LibDem toad thinks (hence the jubilation this time last May): Cameron couldn't be clearer that Leave means leave and that's to his credit, the more so since he will leave politics with a reputation ruined.
Which, in part, explains why I shall be patriotically be voting Remain. Now, above all now, with the existential threat that Corbyn and his gang of thugs, poses to this country, we need a mainstream, moderate centre right government to remain in office for at least the next 10 years until a viable left of centre alternative re-emerges from the dismal primeval slime that is presently 'Labour'.0 -
I have witnessed more than enough of your virulent, sneering grubby personal attacks on Cameron not to take you seriously as a commentator on the Conservative party and hope you stay well away from us. I am sure the sentiment is reciprocated.HurstLlama said:
I am not a member of any political party. Now how about engaging with what I said rather than worrying about me as an individual.JohnO said:
But as a kipper, you would say that, wouldn't you.HurstLlama said:
No, he really isn't. He is leading (after a fashion) a fairly incompetent managerialist government with no actual principles, but lots and lots of spin.JohnO said:
I've been a Tory activist since 1974, possibly before you were born, perhaps even your parents, and Cameron is leading a model centre-right Tory government.MP_SE said:
Surely this is some sort of typo and you meant "centre left"?JohnO said:I don't give the proverbial flying thinggy what Cable or any other grasping LibDem toad thinks (hence the jubilation this time last May): Cameron couldn't be clearer that Leave means leave and that's to his credit, the more so since he will leave politics with a reputation ruined.
Which, in part, explains why I shall be patriotically be voting Remain. Now, above all now, with the existential threat that Corbyn and his gang of thugs, poses to this country, we need a mainstream, moderate centre right government to remain in office for at least the next 10 years until a viable left of centre alternative re-emerges from the dismal primeval slime that is presently 'Labour'.
0 -
Maomentum
Blairite = Zionist
Hitler = Zionist
Therefore
Hitler = Blairite
This explains everything.0 -
I agree. It's a fascinating question: what if the external headwinds, which led to the Barber Boom and other abominations, had not existed?runnymede said:
Well yes, the 1970 programme did look good. Which only made what actually happened (including attempts by a 'Conservative' government to control almost every price and wage in the country and the ridiculous, naive pump-priming of 1972-73) even more dreadful.rcs1000 said:
If we cast aside his Eurofanaticism (Europhile seems so weak a work), there was much to admire about the Selsdon Man project. The 1970 Conservative Prospectus seems, in parts, more radical than the 1979 one. But Heath was hit by a combination of strikes, the first oil crisis, and the rise of the Orangemen. I do wonder if oil prices had been falling, and if the country had been better prepared for the coal miner's strike (both of which were true a decade later), if we might not have a different view of Mr Heath.JohnO said:
Compared to the ascendant Bennery and hard leftism that Harold Wilson did bugger all to resist post 1972, Heath was not the ogre or traitor that is now apparently the conventional wisdom. But, yes, they were bewildering times as the post war consensus of Keynesian demand management/full employment slowly unraveled.runnymede said:
I can imagine activists in 1973/74 trying to convince themselves that Heath was doing something similar. It must have been a bewildering time.JohnO said:
I've been a Tory activist since 1974, possibly before you were born, perhaps even your parents, and Cameron is leading a model centre-right Tory government.MP_SE said:
Surely this is some sort of typo and you meant "centre left"?JohnO said:I don't give the proverbial flying thinggy what Cable or any other grasping LibDem toad thinks (hence the jubilation this time last May): Cameron couldn't be clearer that Leave means leave and that's to his credit, the more so since he will leave politics with a reputation ruined.
Which, in part, explains why I shall be patriotically be voting Remain. Now, above all now, with the existential threat that Corbyn and his gang of thugs, poses to this country, we need a mainstream, moderate centre right government to remain in office for at least the next 10 years until a viable left of centre alternative re-emerges from the dismal primeval slime that is presently 'Labour'.0 -
We are agreed that Cameron's government is incompetent. Now whether they are Centre-right or Centre-left or just plumb Centre we can haggle about from here to breakfast-time but it would be an awful waste of energy. Not least because I doubt we could agree what the "Centre" is.foxinsoxuk said:
I agree with all that, but JohnO is correct in describing it is a centre-right incompetent governme t.HurstLlama said:
No, he really isn't. He is leading (after a fashion) a fairly incompetent managerialist government with no actual principles, but lots and lots of spin.JohnO said:
I've been a Tory activist since 1974, possibly before you were born, perhaps even your parents, and Cameron is leading a model centre-right Tory government.MP_SE said:
Surely this is some sort of typo and you meant "centre left"?JohnO said:I don't give the proverbial flying thinggy what Cable or any other grasping LibDem toad thinks (hence the jubilation this time last May): Cameron couldn't be clearer that Leave means leave and that's to his credit, the more so since he will leave politics with a reputation ruined.
Which, in part, explains why I shall be patriotically be voting Remain. Now, above all now, with the existential threat that Corbyn and his gang of thugs, poses to this country, we need a mainstream, moderate centre right government to remain in office for at least the next 10 years until a viable left of centre alternative re-emerges from the dismal primeval slime that is presently 'Labour'.
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As the Remainers hang Cable out to dry - nothing to do with us, Guv... - his isolation will be complete when Cameron is asked "Prime Minister, is it true that If there is a 51/49 vote for Brexit on a 50 per cent turnout, Parliament isn't going to allow Brexit on that basis?" He will of course have to confirm that if Leave wins by one vote - we will Leave.Tykejohnno said:
Panic in the remain camp I see - lolStark_Dawning said:
Absolutely. I didn't give a flying fig about what Cable said even when he was an MP. Nor did anyone else. Why are the Leavers suddenly having orgasms over his ramblings?JohnO said:I don't give the proverbial flying thinggy what Cable or any other grasping LibDem toad thinks (hence the jubilation this time last May): Cameron couldn't be clearer that Leave means leave and that's to his credit, the more so since he will leave politics with a reputation ruined.
Which, in part, explains why I shall be patriotically be voting Remain. Now, above all now, with the existential threat that Corbyn and his gang of thugs, poses to this country, we need a mainstream, moderate centre right government to remain in office for at least the next 10 years until a viable left of centre alternative re-emerges from the dismal primeval slime that is presently 'Labour'.
It will also be worth digging down into the procedure after the Referendum result. Does Parliament even GET a vote on triggering Article 50? I presume that the Cabinet will have to approve it- but if any Cabinet member refused to implement the will of the voters, I would expect them to resign from the Cabinet.0 -
OMG it's so obvious.Plato_Says said:Maomentum
Blairite = Zionist
Hitler = Zionist
Therefore
Hitler = Blairite
This explains everything.
Blair won three terms as PM, a triangle has three sides, the bermuda triangle is a triangle, bermuda has a coast line, Isreal has a coastline, the flag of David has a star, the star has 6 triangles, 6 take 5 is 1, there is one eye in the iluminati sign. Blair= illuminati confirmed.0 -
Yeah, self described philo-Semite Burchill is deffo a touchstone for clear-eyed analysis of Labour & anti-semitism. I'm sure she'd approve of Stalin making an appearance on banners at today's May Day parades, though I never heard how she came to terms with her hero's own anti-semitism.williamglenn said:Plato_Says said:Mirror
Julie Burchill: Labour Party "Jew-hatred" is cynical bid for Muslim vote https://t.co/OAEWkwuqOO https://t.co/zjR7ufWQI3
To which the hard-left response will no doubt be 'Tory scum'.Julie Burchill said:There are 230,000 Jews in this country and two million Muslims. If the Labour party was currently committing self-immolation for purely ideological reasons, it would be tragic enough.
But the fact that they are doing it cynically, as well – to win the biggest group of voters – compounds their catastrophe.
I am torn between feeling sad that the Labour Party I was brought up in is dying by its own hand and feeling glad that this brain-dead zombie which calls itself a political movement will soon be finished.
0 -
nunu said:
OMG it's so obvious.Plato_Says said:Maomentum
Blairite = Zionist
Hitler = Zionist
Therefore
Hitler = Blairite
This explains everything.
Blair won three terms as PM, a triangle has three sides, the bermuda triangle is a triangle, bermuda has a coast line, Isreal has a coastline, the flag of David has a star, the star has 6 triangles, 6 take 5 is 1, there is one eye in the iluminati sign. Blair= illuminati confirmed. 0 -
Heath, Barber, Carr, Maudling et all were all products of their time. They reached adulthood in the 1930s and were determined that the Conservative party would not be associated again with the mass unemployment of that time. So when the jobless total rose above 1 million in late 1971 and seemed destined to increase inexorably beyond that, yes, they 'panicked', as Macmillan had done in 1962, with their own dash for growth.rcs1000 said:
I agree. It's a fascinating question: what if the external headwinds, which led to the Barber Boom and other abominations, had not existed?runnymede said:
Well yes, the 1970 programme did look good. Which only made what actually happened (including attempts by a 'Conservative' government to control almost every price and wage in the country and the ridiculous, naive pump-priming of 1972-73) even more dreadful.rcs1000 said:
If we cast aside his Eurofanaticism (Europhile seems so weak a work), there was much to admire about the Selsdon Man project. The 1970 Conservative Prospectus seems.JohnO said:
Compared to the ascendant Bennery and hard leftismrunnymede said:
I can imagine activists in 1973/74 trying to convince themselves that Heath was doing something similar. It must have been a bewildering time.JohnO said:
I've been a Tory activist since 1974, possibly before you were born, perhaps even your parents, and Cameron is leading a model centre-right Tory government.MP_SE said:
Surely this is some sort of typo and you meant "centre left"?JohnO said:I don't give the proverbial flying thinggy what Cable or any other grasping LibDem toad thinks (hence the jubilation this time last May): Cameron couldn't be clearer that Leave means leave and that's to his credit, the more so since he will leave politics with a reputation ruined.
Which, in part, explains why I shall be patriotically be voting Remain. Now, above all now, with the existential threat that Corbyn and his gang of thugs, poses to this country, we need a mainstream, moderate centre right government to remain in office for at least the next 10 years until a viable left of centre alternative re-emerges from the dismal primeval slime that is presently 'Labour'.
Ironically, it was Labour post 1976, that ushered in monetarism and the final inglorious end to Butskellism, which Mrs Thatcher pursued with clarity, vigour and long term success, forging the new economic consensus.
So, Heath got it wrong, big time, but has the obloquy been overdone?
0 -
With hindsight, it's rather a surprise that a 'pass-mark' wasn't built in at the start. It is rather a big decision to make on a very low turn-out and with a very finely balanced opinion in the country.MarqueeMark said:
As the Remainers hang Cable out to dry - nothing to do with us, Guv... - his isolation will be complete when Cameron is asked "Prime Minister, is it true that If there is a 51/49 vote for Brexit on a 50 per cent turnout, Parliament isn't going to allow Brexit on that basis?" He will of course have to confirm that if Leave wins by one vote - we will Leave.Tykejohnno said:
Panic in the remain camp I see - lolStark_Dawning said:
Absolutely. I didn't give a flying fig about what Cable said even when he was an MP. Nor did anyone else. Why are the Leavers suddenly having orgasms over his ramblings?JohnO said:I don't give the proverbial flying thinggy what Cable or any other grasping LibDem toad thinks (hence the jubilation this time last May): Cameron couldn't be clearer that Leave means leave and that's to his credit, the more so since he will leave politics with a reputation ruined.
Which, in part, explains why I shall be patriotically be voting Remain. Now, above all now, with the existential threat that Corbyn and his gang of thugs, poses to this country, we need a mainstream, moderate centre right government to remain in office for at least the next 10 years until a viable left of centre alternative re-emerges from the dismal primeval slime that is presently 'Labour'.
It will also be worth digging down into the procedure after the Referendum result. Does Parliament even GET a vote on triggering Article 50? I presume that the Cabinet will have to approve it- but if any Cabinet member refused to implement the will of the voters, I would expect them to resign from the Cabinet.0 -
The referendum is non-binding (as all referendum are in the UK), and does not cause the invocation of Article 50.MarqueeMark said:
As the Remainers hang Cable out to dry - nothing to do with us, Guv... - his isolation will be complete when Cameron is asked "Prime Minister, is it true that If there is a 51/49 vote for Brexit on a 50 per cent turnout, Parliament isn't going to allow Brexit on that basis?" He will of course have to confirm that if Leave wins by one vote - we will Leave.Tykejohnno said:
Panic in the remain camp I see - lolStark_Dawning said:
Absolutely. I didn't give a flying fig about what Cable said even when he was an MP. Nor did anyone else. Why are the Leavers suddenly having orgasms over his ramblings?JohnO said:I don't give the proverbial flying thinggy what Cable or any other grasping LibDem toad thinks (hence the jubilation this time last May): Cameron couldn't be clearer that Leave means leave and that's to his credit, the more so since he will leave politics with a reputation ruined.
Which, in part, explains why I shall be patriotically be voting Remain. Now, above all now, with the existential threat that Corbyn and his gang of thugs, poses to this country, we need a mainstream, moderate centre right government to remain in office for at least the next 10 years until a viable left of centre alternative re-emerges from the dismal primeval slime that is presently 'Labour'.
It will also be worth digging down into the procedure after the Referendum result. Does Parliament even GET a vote on triggering Article 50? I presume that the Cabinet will have to approve it- but if any Cabinet member refused to implement the will of the voters, I would expect them to resign from the Cabinet.
I do not believe that - if we were to win by a single vote - that David Cameron would be able to ignore the vote. Any attempt to circumvent it would be political suicide, with the Cameron hounded out of the leadership of the Conservative Party.
The big question is what comes after a vote for Leave. I believe it would be necessary for the new Conservative Leader to either call an immediate election (so various parties could stand with their own visions for the UK outside the EU), or for a referendum on Britain outside the EU: EFTA/EEA vs CO.0 -
Golly. I didn't realise that criticising the PM was such a dreadful thing. I confess that I have from time to time pointed out that Cameron's words are often not matched by his actions, and I have called into question his leadership skills (given the current state of the Conservative Party who wouldn't). However if that makes up to "virulent. sneering, grubby personal" attacks in your world I am glad I don't live in it.JohnO said:
I have witnessed more than enough of your virulent, sneering grubby personal attacks on Cameron not to take you seriously as a commentator on the Conservative party and hope you stay well away from us. I am sure the sentiment is reciprocated.HurstLlama said:
I am not a member of any political party. Now how about engaging with what I said rather than worrying about me as an individual.JohnO said:
But as a kipper, you would say that, wouldn't you.HurstLlama said:
No, he really isn't. He is leading (after a fashion) a fairly incompetent managerialist government with no actual principles, but lots and lots of spin.JohnO said:
I've been a Tory activist since 1974, possibly before you were born, perhaps even your parents, and Cameron is leading a model centre-right Tory government.MP_SE said:
Surely this is some sort of typo and you meant "centre left"?JohnO said:I don't give the proverbial flying thinggy what Cable or any other grasping LibDem toad thinks (hence the jubilation this time last May): Cameron couldn't be clearer that Leave means leave and that's to his credit, the more so since he will leave politics with a reputation ruined.
Which, in part, explains why I shall be patriotically be voting Remain. Now, above all now, with the existential threat that Corbyn and his gang of thugs, poses to this country, we need a mainstream, moderate centre right government to remain in office for at least the next 10 years until a viable left of centre alternative re-emerges from the dismal primeval slime that is presently 'Labour'.
However, I shall respect your wishes and stay away well away from you, who ever you are.0 -
We used to think that you could spend your way out of a recession, and increase employment by cutting taxes and boosting Government spending. I tell you in all candour that that option no longer exists, and that in so far as it ever did exist, it only worked on each occasion since the war by injecting a bigger dose of inflation into the economy, followed by a higher level of unemployment as the next step. - James Callaghan, 1976JohnO said:
Heath, Barber, Carr, Maudling et all were all products of their time. They reached adulthood in the 1930s and were determined that the Conservative party would not be associated again with the mass unemployment of that time. So when the jobless total rose above 1 million in late 1971 and seemed destined to increase inexorably beyond that, yes, they 'panicked', as Macmillan had done in 1962, with their own dash for growth.rcs1000 said:
I agree. It's a fascinating question: what if the external headwinds, which led to the Barber Boom and other abominations, had not existed?runnymede said:
Well yes, the 1970 programme did look good. Which only made what actually happened (including attempts by a 'Conservative' government to control almost every price and wage in the country and the ridiculous, naive pump-priming of 1972-73) even more dreadful.rcs1000 said:
If we cast aside his Eurofanaticism (Europhile seems so weak a work), there was much to admire about the Selsdon Man project. The 1970 Conservative Prospectus seems.JohnO said:
Compared to the ascendant Bennery and hard leftismrunnymede said:
I can imagine activists in 1973/74 trying to convince themselves that Heath was doing something similar. It must have been a bewildering time.JohnO said:
I've been a Tory activist since 1974, possibly before you were born, perhaps even your parents, and Cameron is leading a model centre-right Tory government.MP_SE said:
Surely this is some sort of typo and you meant "centre left"?
Ironically, it was Labour post 1976, that ushered in monetarism and the final inglorious end to Butskellism, which Mrs Thatcher pursued with clarity, vigour and long term success, forging the new economic consensus.
So, Heath got it wrong, big time, but has the obloquy been overdone?0 -
But whatever that passmark, it would have been widely seen as a way to rig the election - and so would have undone all the good work of offering it in the first place.AnneJGP said:
With hindsight, it's rather a surprise that a 'pass-mark' wasn't built in at the start. It is rather a big decision to make on a very low turn-out and with a very finely balanced opinion in the country.MarqueeMark said:
As the Remainers hang Cable out to dry - nothing to do with us, Guv... - his isolation will be complete when Cameron is asked "Prime Minister, is it true that If there is a 51/49 vote for Brexit on a 50 per cent turnout, Parliament isn't going to allow Brexit on that basis?" He will of course have to confirm that if Leave wins by one vote - we will Leave.Tykejohnno said:
Panic in the remain camp I see - lolStark_Dawning said:
Absolutely. I didn't give a flying fig about what Cable said even when he was an MP. Nor did anyone else. Why are the Leavers suddenly having orgasms over his ramblings?JohnO said:I don't give the proverbial flying thinggy what Cable or any other grasping LibDem toad thinks (hence the jubilation this time last May): Cameron couldn't be clearer that Leave means leave and that's to his credit, the more so since he will leave politics with a reputation ruined.
Which, in part, explains why I shall be patriotically be voting Remain. Now, above all now, with the existential threat that Corbyn and his gang of thugs, poses to this country, we need a mainstream, moderate centre right government to remain in office for at least the next 10 years until a viable left of centre alternative re-emerges from the dismal primeval slime that is presently 'Labour'.
It will also be worth digging down into the procedure after the Referendum result. Does Parliament even GET a vote on triggering Article 50? I presume that the Cabinet will have to approve it- but if any Cabinet member refused to implement the will of the voters, I would expect them to resign from the Cabinet.
And clearly, Remain were just so cocksure that they couldn't possibly lose it, why bother with a pass-mark....?0 -
Ouch, painful but true.Plato_Says said:Mirror
Julie Burchill: Labour Party "Jew-hatred" is cynical bid for Muslim vote https://t.co/OAEWkwuqOO https://t.co/zjR7ufWQI3
The likes of Roger will refuse to listen and learn though.
0 -
Pray for Leics to win today, wiping all else off tomorrow's front pages.kle4 said:
In his very minimal defence, not that I want him to be able to clamp down on this story, but that's really down to Ken, isn't it? Short of gagging the man, what could Milne have done? Poor dear.rottenborough said:
...and he's doing so well: judging by the five days of front page headlines about the exact details of Hitler's Final Solution circa 1932.oxfordsimon said:
It is to their eternal shame that Labour is now run by Milne. Utterly shameful.rottenborough said:
Said piece was sourced, and published, by then comment editor, one S. Milne, who retains an 'absent on leave' arrangement with the newspaper. I believe this piece caused arguments in the newsroom.0 -
Irrespective of the result, I sincerely hope that the turnout level is decent. A decision of this magnitude voted on by just 45% of the population (and therefore less than 25% of voters having committed to the winning side), would be sad.AnneJGP said:
With hindsight, it's rather a surprise that a 'pass-mark' wasn't built in at the start. It is rather a big decision to make on a very low turn-out and with a very finely balanced opinion in the country.MarqueeMark said:
As the Remainers hang Cable out to dry - nothing to do with us, Guv... - his isolation will be complete when Cameron is asked "Prime Minister, is it true that If there is a 51/49 vote for Brexit on a 50 per cent turnout, Parliament isn't going to allow Brexit on that basis?" He will of course have to confirm that if Leave wins by one vote - we will Leave.Tykejohnno said:
Panic in the remain camp I see - lolStark_Dawning said:
Absolutely. I didn't give a flying fig about what Cable said even when he was an MP. Nor did anyone else. Why are the Leavers suddenly having orgasms over his ramblings?JohnO said:I don't give the proverbial flying thinggy what Cable or any other grasping LibDem toad thinks (hence the jubilation this time last May): Cameron couldn't be clearer that Leave means leave and that's to his credit, the more so since he will leave politics with a reputation ruined.
Which, in part, explains why I shall be patriotically be voting Remain. Now, above all now, with the existential threat that Corbyn and his gang of thugs, poses to this country, we need a mainstream, moderate centre right government to remain in office for at least the next 10 years until a viable left of centre alternative re-emerges from the dismal primeval slime that is presently 'Labour'.
It will also be worth digging down into the procedure after the Referendum result. Does Parliament even GET a vote on triggering Article 50? I presume that the Cabinet will have to approve it- but if any Cabinet member refused to implement the will of the voters, I would expect them to resign from the Cabinet.0 -
Yes, but didn't he make these comments with the IMF in mind, rather than being a true reflection of his opinions? I seem to recall the recent BBC4 evening on Callaghan made this point.rcs1000 said:
We used to think that you could spend your way out of a recession, and increase employment by cutting taxes and boosting Government spending. I tell you in all candour that that option no longer exists, and that in so far as it ever did exist, it only worked on each occasion since the war by injecting a bigger dose of inflation into the economy, followed by a higher level of unemployment as the next step. - James Callaghan, 1976JohnO said:
Heath, Barber, Carr, Maudling et all were all products of their time. They reached adulthood in the 1930s and were determined that the Conservative party would not be associated again with the mass unemployment of that time. So when the jobless total rose above 1 million in late 1971 and seemed destined to increase inexorably beyond that, yes, they 'panicked', as Macmillan had done in 1962, with their own dash for growth.rcs1000 said:
I agree. It's a fascinating question: what if the external headwinds, which led to the Barber Boom and other abominations, had not existed?runnymede said:
Well yes, the 1970 programme did look good. Which only made what actually happened (including attempts by a 'Conservative' government to control almost every price and wage in the country and the ridiculous, naive pump-priming of 1972-73) even more dreadful.rcs1000 said:
If we cast aside his Eurofanaticism (Europhile seems so weak a work), there was much to admire about the Selsdon Man project. The 1970 Conservative Prospectus seems.JohnO said:
Compared to the ascendant Bennery and hard leftismrunnymede said:
I can imagine activists in 1973/74 trying to convince themselves that Heath was doing something similar. It must have been a bewildering time.JohnO said:
I've been a Tory activist since 1974, possibly before you were born, perhaps even your parents, and Cameron is leading a model centre-right Tory government.MP_SE said:
Surely this is some sort of typo and you meant "centre left"?
Ironically, it was Labour post 1976, that ushered in monetarism and the final inglorious end to Butskellism, which Mrs Thatcher pursued with clarity, vigour and long term success, forging the new economic consensus.
So, Heath got it wrong, big time, but has the obloquy been overdone?0 -
Errr. Leicester drew with Man Utd today; do you mean Chelsea to beat Tottenham, thus ensuring Leicester are crowned champions?rottenborough said:
Pray for Leics to win today, wiping all else off tomorrow's front pages.kle4 said:
In his very minimal defence, not that I want him to be able to clamp down on this story, but that's really down to Ken, isn't it? Short of gagging the man, what could Milne have done? Poor dear.rottenborough said:
...and he's doing so well: judging by the five days of front page headlines about the exact details of Hitler's Final Solution circa 1932.oxfordsimon said:
It is to their eternal shame that Labour is now run by Milne. Utterly shameful.rottenborough said:
Said piece was sourced, and published, by then comment editor, one S. Milne, who retains an 'absent on leave' arrangement with the newspaper. I believe this piece caused arguments in the newsroom.0 -
I meant yesterday, as it is now today, if you see what I mean.rcs1000 said:
Errr. Leicester drew with Man Utd today; do you mean Chelsea to beat Tottenham, thus ensuring Leicester are crowned champions?rottenborough said:
Pray for Leics to win today, wiping all else off tomorrow's front pages.kle4 said:
In his very minimal defence, not that I want him to be able to clamp down on this story, but that's really down to Ken, isn't it? Short of gagging the man, what could Milne have done? Poor dear.rottenborough said:
...and he's doing so well: judging by the five days of front page headlines about the exact details of Hitler's Final Solution circa 1932.oxfordsimon said:
It is to their eternal shame that Labour is now run by Milne. Utterly shameful.rottenborough said:
Said piece was sourced, and published, by then comment editor, one S. Milne, who retains an 'absent on leave' arrangement with the newspaper. I believe this piece caused arguments in the newsroom.0 -
I think (happy to be contradicted) that it's entirely within the gift of the Prime Minister - it doesn't even need an order-in-council. If he transmitted a "we wish to leave" message to whoever, I wouldn't want to be the lawyer that argues that an article 50 Leave notice had not been served.MarqueeMark said:It will also be worth digging down into the procedure after the Referendum result. Does Parliament even GET a vote on triggering Article 50? I presume that the Cabinet will have to approve it- but if any Cabinet member refused to implement the will of the voters, I would expect them to resign from the Cabinet.
0 -
What you say in your first para is very true, and in fact I am very glad that it wasn't included.MarqueeMark said:
But whatever that passmark, it would have been widely seen as a way to rig the election - and so would have undone all the good work of offering it in the first place.AnneJGP said:
With hindsight, it's rather a surprise that a 'pass-mark' wasn't built in at the start. It is rather a big decision to make on a very low turn-out and with a very finely balanced opinion in the country.MarqueeMark said:
As the Remainers hang Cable out to dry - nothing to do with us, Guv... - his isolation will be complete when Cameron is asked "Prime Minister, is it true that If there is a 51/49 vote for Brexit on a 50 per cent turnout, Parliament isn't going to allow Brexit on that basis?" He will of course have to confirm that if Leave wins by one vote - we will Leave.Tykejohnno said:
Panic in the remain camp I see - lolStark_Dawning said:
Absolutely. I didn't give a flying fig about what Cable said even when he was an MP. Nor did anyone else. Why are the Leavers suddenly having orgasms over his ramblings?JohnO said:I don't give the proverbial flying thinggy what Cable or any other grasping LibDem toad thinks (hence the jubilation this time last May): Cameron couldn't be clearer that Leave means leave and that's to his credit, the more so since he will leave politics with a reputation ruined.
Which, in part, explains why I shall be patriotically be voting Remain. Now, above all now, with the existential threat that Corbyn and his gang of thugs, poses to this country, we need a mainstream, moderate centre right government to remain in office for at least the next 10 years until a viable left of centre alternative re-emerges from the dismal primeval slime that is presently 'Labour'.
It will also be worth digging down into the procedure after the Referendum result. Does Parliament even GET a vote on triggering Article 50? I presume that the Cabinet will have to approve it- but if any Cabinet member refused to implement the will of the voters, I would expect them to resign from the Cabinet.
And clearly, Remain were just so cocksure that they couldn't possibly lose it, why bother with a pass-mark....?
But I still don't know which way to vote!0 -
O/T:
I wish the audience at The Crucible would stop laughing at Dennis Taylor's jokes which they're listening to through earphones.0 -
Yes, I agree.rcs1000 said:
Irrespective of the result, I sincerely hope that the turnout level is decent. A decision of this magnitude voted on by just 45% of the population (and therefore less than 25% of voters having committed to the winning side), would be sad.AnneJGP said:
With hindsight, it's rather a surprise that a 'pass-mark' wasn't built in at the start. It is rather a big decision to make on a very low turn-out and with a very finely balanced opinion in the country.MarqueeMark said:
As the Remainers hang Cable out to dry - nothing to do with us, Guv... - his isolation will be complete when Cameron is asked "Prime Minister, is it true that If there is a 51/49 vote for Brexit on a 50 per cent turnout, Parliament isn't going to allow Brexit on that basis?" He will of course have to confirm that if Leave wins by one vote - we will Leave.Tykejohnno said:
Panic in the remain camp I see - lolStark_Dawning said:
Absolutely. I didn't give a flying fig about what Cable said even when he was an MP. Nor did anyone else. Why are the Leavers suddenly having orgasms over his ramblings?JohnO said:I don't give the proverbial flying thinggy what Cable or any other grasping LibDem toad thinks (hence the jubilation this time last May): Cameron couldn't be clearer that Leave means leave and that's to his credit, the more so since he will leave politics with a reputation ruined.
Which, in part, explains why I shall be patriotically be voting Remain. Now, above all now, with the existential threat that Corbyn and his gang of thugs, poses to this country, we need a mainstream, moderate centre right government to remain in office for at least the next 10 years until a viable left of centre alternative re-emerges from the dismal primeval slime that is presently 'Labour'.
It will also be worth digging down into the procedure after the Referendum result. Does Parliament even GET a vote on triggering Article 50? I presume that the Cabinet will have to approve it- but if any Cabinet member refused to implement the will of the voters, I would expect them to resign from the Cabinet.0 -
Interesting; do you remember the name of the programme?rottenborough said:
Yes, but didn't he make these comments with the IMF in mind, rather than being a true reflection of his opinions? I seem to recall the recent BBC4 evening on Callaghan made this point.0 -
I probably won't turn out (with my postal vote) not because I don't care, but because I genuinely don't know.AnneJGP said:
Yes, I agree.rcs1000 said:
Irrespective of the result, I sincerely hope that the turnout level is decent. A decision of this magnitude voted on by just 45% of the population (and therefore less than 25% of voters having committed to the winning side), would be sad.AnneJGP said:
With hindsight, it's rather a surprise that a 'pass-mark' wasn't built in at the start. It is rather a big decision to make on a very low turn-out and with a very finely balanced opinion in the country.MarqueeMark said:
As the Remainers hang Cable out to dry - nothing to do with us, Guv... - his isolation will be complete when Cameron is asked "Prime Minister, is it true that If there is a 51/49 vote for Brexit on a 50 per cent turnout, Parliament isn't going to allow Brexit on that basis?" He will of course have to confirm that if Leave wins by one vote - we will Leave.Tykejohnno said:
Panic in the remain camp I see - lolStark_Dawning said:
Absolutely. I didn't give a flying fig about what Cable said even when he was an MP. Nor did anyone else. Why are the Leavers suddenly having orgasms over his ramblings?JohnO said:I don't give the proverbial flying thinggy what Cable or any other grasping LibDem toad thinks (hence the jubilation this time last May): Cameron couldn't be clearer that Leave means leave and that's to his credit, the more so since he will leave politics with a reputation ruined.
Which, in part, explains why I shall be patriotically be voting Remain. Now, above all now, with the existential threat that Corbyn and his gang of thugs, poses to this country, we need a mainstream, moderate centre right government to remain in office for at least the next 10 years until a viable left of centre alternative re-emerges from the dismal primeval slime that is presently 'Labour'.
It will also be worth digging down into the procedure after the Referendum result. Does Parliament even GET a vote on triggering Article 50? I presume that the Cabinet will have to approve it- but if any Cabinet member refused to implement the will of the voters, I would expect them to resign from the Cabinet.0 -
@rottenborough, @runneymede
Callaghan's 1976 Leader's Speech is actually pretty interesting: http://www.britishpoliticalspeech.org/speech-archive.htm?speech=1740 -
Vote REMAIN. If it turns out to be the wrong decision, the UK can LEAVE at a later date. But if you vote LEAVE and it turns out to be the wrong decision...you're stuck.AnneJGP said:
What you say in your first para is very true, and in fact I am very glad that it wasn't included.MarqueeMark said:
But whatever that passmark, it would have been widely seen as a way to rig the election - and so would have undone all the good work of offering it in the first place.AnneJGP said:
With hindsight, it's rather a surprise that a 'pass-mark' wasn't built in at the start. It is rather a big decision to make on a very low turn-out and with a very finely balanced opinion in the country.MarqueeMark said:
As the Remainers hang Cable out to dry - nothing to do with us, Guv... - his isolation will be complete when Cameron is asked "Prime Minister, is it true that If there is a 51/49 vote for Brexit on a 50 per cent turnout, Parliament isn't going to allow Brexit on that basis?" He will of course have to confirm that if Leave wins by one vote - we will Leave.Tykejohnno said:
Panic in the remain camp I see - lolStark_Dawning said:
Absolutely. I didn't give a flying fig about what Cable said even when he was an MP. Nor did anyone else. Why are the Leavers suddenly having orgasms over his ramblings?JohnO said:I don't give the proverbial flying thinggy what Cable or any other grasping LibDem toad thinks (hence the jubilation this time last May): Cameron couldn't be clearer that Leave means leave and that's to his credit, the more so since he will leave politics with a reputation ruined.
Which, in part, explains why I shall be patriotically be voting Remain. Now, above all now, with the existential threat that Corbyn and his gang of thugs, poses to this country, we need a mainstream, moderate centre right government to remain in office for at least the next 10 years until a viable left of centre alternative re-emerges from the dismal primeval slime that is presently 'Labour'.
It will also be worth digging down into the procedure after the Referendum result. Does Parliament even GET a vote on triggering Article 50? I presume that the Cabinet will have to approve it- but if any Cabinet member refused to implement the will of the voters, I would expect them to resign from the Cabinet.
And clearly, Remain were just so cocksure that they couldn't possibly lose it, why bother with a pass-mark....?
But I still don't know which way to vote!0 -
But that's an argument for never making a decision.viewcode said:
Vote REMAIN. If it turns out to be the wrong decision, the UK can LEAVE at a later date. But if you vote LEAVE and it turns out to be the wrong decision...you're stuck.AnneJGP said:
What you say in your first para is very true, and in fact I am very glad that it wasn't included.MarqueeMark said:
But whatever that passmark, it would have been widely seen as a way to rig the election - and so would have undone all the good work of offering it in the first place.AnneJGP said:
With hindsight, it's rather a surprise that a 'pass-mark' wasn't built in at the start. It is rather a big decision to make on a very low turn-out and with a very finely balanced opinion in the country.MarqueeMark said:
As the Remainers hang Cable out to dry - nothing to do with us, Guv... - his isolation will be complete when Cameron is asked "Prime Minister, is it true that If there is a 51/49 vote for Brexit on a 50 per cent turnout, Parliament isn't going to allow Brexit on that basis?" He will of course have to confirm that if Leave wins by one vote - we will Leave.Tykejohnno said:
Panic in the remain camp I see - lolStark_Dawning said:
Absolutely. I didn't give a flying fig about what Cable said even when he was an MP. Nor did anyone else. Why are the Leavers suddenly having orgasms over his ramblings?JohnO said:I don't give the proverbial flying thinggy what Cable or any other grasping LibDem toad thinks (hence the jubilation this time last May): Cameron couldn't be clearer that Leave means leave and that's to his credit, the more so since he will leave politics with a reputation ruined.
Which, in part, explains why I shall be patriotically be voting Remain. Now, above all now, with the existential threat that Corbyn and his gang of thugs, poses to this country, we need a mainstream, moderate centre right government to remain in office for at least the next 10 years until a viable left of centre alternative re-emerges from the dismal primeval slime that is presently 'Labour'.
It will also be worth digging down into the procedure after the Referendum result. Does Parliament even GET a vote on triggering Article 50? I presume that the Cabinet will have to approve it- but if any Cabinet member refused to implement the will of the voters, I would expect them to resign from the Cabinet.
And clearly, Remain were just so cocksure that they couldn't possibly lose it, why bother with a pass-mark....?
But I still don't know which way to vote!0 -
I'm not sure, if things go badly wrong for the EU over the next few years they might start begging people to join again.viewcode said:
Vote REMAIN. If it turns out to be the wrong decision, the UK can LEAVE at a later date. But if you vote LEAVE and it turns out to be the wrong decision...you're stuck.AnneJGP said:
What you say in your first para is very true, and in fact I am very glad that it wasn't included.MarqueeMark said:
But whatever that passmark, it would have been widely seen as a way to rig the election - and so would have undone all the good work of offering it in the first place.AnneJGP said:
With hindsight, it's rather a surprise that a 'pass-mark' wasn't built in at the start. It is rather a big decision to make on a very low turn-out and with a very finely balanced opinion in the country.MarqueeMark said:
As the Remainers hang Cable out to dry - nothing to do with us, Guv... - his isolation will be complete when Cameron is asked "Prime Minister, is it true that If there is a 51/49 vote for Brexit on a 50 per cent turnout, Parliament isn't going to allow Brexit on that basis?" He will of course have to confirm that if Leave wins by one vote - we will Leave.Tykejohnno said:
Panic in the remain camp I see - lolStark_Dawning said:
Absolutely. I didn't give a flying fig about what Cable said even when he was an MP. Nor did anyone else. Why are the Leavers suddenly having orgasms over his ramblings?JohnO said:I don't give the proverbial flying thinggy what Cable or any other grasping LibDem toad thinks (hence the jubilation this time last May): Cameron couldn't be clearer that Leave means leave and that's to his credit, the more so since he will leave politics with a reputation ruined.
Which, in part, explains why I shall be patriotically be voting Remain. Now, above all now, with the existential threat that Corbyn and his gang of thugs, poses to this country, we need a mainstream, moderate centre right government to remain in office for at least the next 10 years until a viable left of centre alternative re-emerges from the dismal primeval slime that is presently 'Labour'.
It will also be worth digging down into the procedure after the Referendum result. Does Parliament even GET a vote on triggering Article 50? I presume that the Cabinet will have to approve it- but if any Cabinet member refused to implement the will of the voters, I would expect them to resign from the Cabinet.
And clearly, Remain were just so cocksure that they couldn't possibly lose it, why bother with a pass-mark....?
But I still don't know which way to vote!0 -
More accurately, it's an argument for not making a decision until you have to.rcs1000 said:0 -
Oh, I will - it's too important to opt out of casting a vote one way or the other.dugarbandier said:
I probably won't turn out (with my postal vote) not because I don't care, but because I genuinely don't know.AnneJGP said:
Yes, I agree.rcs1000 said:
Irrespective of the result, I sincerely hope that the turnout level is decent. A decision of this magnitude voted on by just 45% of the population (and therefore less than 25% of voters having committed to the winning side), would be sad.AnneJGP said:
With hindsight, it's rather a surprise that a 'pass-mark' wasn't built in at the start. It is rather a big decision to make on a very low turn-out and with a very finely balanced opinion in the country.MarqueeMark said:
As the Remainers hang Cable out to dry - nothing to do with us, Guv... - his isolation will be complete when Cameron is asked "Prime Minister, is it true that If there is a 51/49 vote for Brexit on a 50 per cent turnout, Parliament isn't going to allow Brexit on that basis?" He will of course have to confirm that if Leave wins by one vote - we will Leave.Tykejohnno said:
Panic in the remain camp I see - lolStark_Dawning said:
Absolutely. I didn't give a flying fig about what Cable said even when he was an MP. Nor did anyone else. Why are the Leavers suddenly having orgasms over his ramblings?JohnO said:I don't give the proverbial flying thinggy what Cable or any other grasping LibDem toad thinks (hence the jubilation this time last May): Cameron couldn't be clearer that Leave means leave and that's to his credit, the more so since he will leave politics with a reputation ruined.
Which, in part, explains why I shall be patriotically be voting Remain. Now, above all now, with the existential threat that Corbyn and his gang of thugs, poses to this country, we need a mainstream, moderate centre right government to remain in office for at least the next 10 years until a viable left of centre alternative re-emerges from the dismal primeval slime that is presently 'Labour'.
It will also be worth digging down into the procedure after the Referendum result. Does Parliament even GET a vote on triggering Article 50? I presume that the Cabinet will have to approve it- but if any Cabinet member refused to implement the will of the voters, I would expect them to resign from the Cabinet.0 -
I will if I can come to a decision about it, but I'm finding it difficult. Are you leaning one way or the other?AnneJGP said:
Oh, I will - it's too important to opt out of casting a vote one way or the other.dugarbandier said:
I probably won't turn out (with my postal vote) not because I don't care, but because I genuinely don't know.AnneJGP said:
Yes, I agree.rcs1000 said:
Irrespective of the result, I sincerely hope that the turnout level is decent. A decision of this magnitude voted on by just 45% of the population (and therefore less than 25% of voters having committed to the winning side), would be sad.AnneJGP said:
With hindsight, it's rather a surprise that a 'pass-mark' wasn't built in at the start. It is rather a big decision to make on a very low turn-out and with a very finely balanced opinion in the country.MarqueeMark said:
As the Remainers hang Cable out to dry - nothing to do with us, Guv... - his isolation will be complete when Cameron is asked "Prime Minister, is it true that If there is a 51/49 vote for Brexit on a 50 per cent turnout, Parliament isn't going to allow Brexit on that basis?" He will of course have to confirm that if Leave wins by one vote - we will Leave.Tykejohnno said:
Panic in the remain camp I see - lolStark_Dawning said:
Absolutely. I didn't give a flying fig about what Cable said even when he was an MP. Nor did anyone else. Why are the Leavers suddenly having orgasms over his ramblings?JohnO said:I don't give the proverbial flying thinggy what Cable or any other grasping LibDem toad thinks (hence the jubilation this time last May): Cameron couldn't be clearer that Leave means leave and that's to his credit, the more so since he will leave politics with a reputation ruined.
Which, in part, explains why I shall be patriotically be voting Remain. Now, above all now, with the existential threat that Corbyn and his gang of thugs, poses to this country, we need a mainstream, moderate centre right government to remain in office for at least the next 10 years until a viable left of centre alternative re-emerges from the dismal primeval slime that is presently 'Labour'.
It will also be worth digging down into the procedure after the Referendum result. Does Parliament even GET a vote on triggering Article 50? I presume that the Cabinet will have to approve it- but if any Cabinet member refused to implement the will of the voters, I would expect them to resign from the Cabinet.0 -
I still think I'll probably vote Remain in the end. But I'm not pleased about it.0
-
I see it the other way round. If we vote Leave and it's a mistake, well. it's only one small country out of the larger EU - no big deal to the wider world.viewcode said:
Vote REMAIN. If it turns out to be the wrong decision, the UK can LEAVE at a later date. But if you vote LEAVE and it turns out to be the wrong decision...you're stuck.AnneJGP said:
What you say in your first para is very true, and in fact I am very glad that it wasn't included.MarqueeMark said:
But whatever that passmark, it would have been widely seen as a way to rig the election - and so would have undone all the good work of offering it in the first place.AnneJGP said:
With hindsight, it's rather a surprise that a 'pass-mark' wasn't built in at the start. It is rather a big decision to make on a very low turn-out and with a very finely balanced opinion in the country.MarqueeMark said:
snippedTykejohnno said:
Panic in the remain camp I see - lolStark_Dawning said:
Absolutely. I didn't give a flying fig about what Cable said even when he was an MP. Nor did anyone else. Why are the Leavers suddenly having orgasms over his ramblings?JohnO said:snipped
And clearly, Remain were just so cocksure that they couldn't possibly lose it, why bother with a pass-mark....?
But I still don't know which way to vote!
But I have the feeling that the EU may be heading towards something of a Niagara Falls event, in which case a friendly country standing on the bank might be able to help all the others, somehow.0 -
Hmmm... I've said it once, I'll say it again:williamglenn said:
We will never be happy members of the EU project. For both us, and our neighbours, it would be better if we left.0 -
EFTA/EEA is that riverbank. The EU, without the political elements.AnneJGP said:
I see it the other way round. If we vote Leave and it's a mistake, well. it's only one small country out of the larger EU - no big deal to the wider world.viewcode said:
Vote REMAIN. If it turns out to be the wrong decision, the UK can LEAVE at a later date. But if you vote LEAVE and it turns out to be the wrong decision...you're stuck.AnneJGP said:
What you say in your first para is very true, and in fact I am very glad that it wasn't included.MarqueeMark said:
But whatever that passmark, it would have been widely seen as a way to rig the election - and so would have undone all the good work of offering it in the first place.AnneJGP said:
With hindsight, it's rather a surprise that a 'pass-mark' wasn't built in at the start. It is rather a big decision to make on a very low turn-out and with a very finely balanced opinion in the country.MarqueeMark said:
snippedTykejohnno said:
Panic in the remain camp I see - lolStark_Dawning said:
Absolutely. I didn't give a flying fig about what Cable said even when he was an MP. Nor did anyone else. Why are the Leavers suddenly having orgasms over his ramblings?JohnO said:snipped
And clearly, Remain were just so cocksure that they couldn't possibly lose it, why bother with a pass-mark....?
But I still don't know which way to vote!
But I have the feeling that the EU may be heading towards something of a Niagara Falls event, in which case a friendly country standing on the bank might be able to help all the others, somehow.
Sure, it's not enough for some people, but most are happy with a free trade block that does not seek judicial oversight of its members.
The issue, for me, is that we end up thrashing about attempting to forge the unforgeable. The Commonwealth will never be a major trading bloc. We would be no happier in NAFTA than in the EU.0 -
-
My heart is very keen on Leave - I am delighted with polls that show it won't be a walk-over for Remain - but I don't know what my mind makes of it yet.dugarbandier said:
I will if I can come to a decision about it, but I'm finding it difficult. Are you leaning one way or the other?AnneJGP said:
Oh, I will - it's too important to opt out of casting a vote one way or the other.dugarbandier said:
I probably won't turn out (with my postal vote) not because I don't care, but because I genuinely don't know.AnneJGP said:
Yes, I agree.rcs1000 said:
Irrespective of the result, I sincerely hope that the turnout level is decent. A decision of this magnitude voted on by just 45% of the population (and therefore less than 25% of voters having committed to the winning side), would be sad.AnneJGP said:
With hindsight, it's rather a surprise that a 'pass-mark' wasn't built in at the start. It is rather a big decision to make on a very low turn-out and with a very finely balanced opinion in the country.MarqueeMark said:
snipped.Tykejohnno said:
Panic in the remain camp I see - lolStark_Dawning said:
Absolutely. I didn't give a flying fig about what Cable said even when he was an MP. Nor did anyone else. Why are the Leavers suddenly having orgasms over his ramblings?JohnO said:snipped.
I like to have a good reason for doing things, and an emotional "Yah-boo" response isn't a good reason (not to me at any rate).0 -
Indeed. And as for the perpetually maintained bargaining chip, more like the boy calling 'wolf'rcs1000 said:
Hmmm... I've said it once, I'll say it again:williamglenn said:
We will never be happy members of the EU project. For both us, and our neighbours, it would be better if we left.0 -
Given the tenor of the debate on the issue over the last few decades EFTA/EEA would be seen as a con by the political elite and would only deepen the anti-establishment, even revolutionary feeling among the true outers.rcs1000 said:
EFTA/EEA is that riverbank. The EU, without the political elements.AnneJGP said:
I see it the other way round. If we vote Leave and it's a mistake, well. it's only one small country out of the larger EU - no big deal to the wider world.viewcode said:
Vote REMAIN. If it turns out to be the wrong decision, the UK can LEAVE at a later date. But if you vote LEAVE and it turns out to be the wrong decision...you're stuck.AnneJGP said:
What you say in your first para is very true, and in fact I am very glad that it wasn't included.MarqueeMark said:
But whatever that passmark, it would have been widely seen as a way to rig the election - and so would have undone all the good work of offering it in the first place.AnneJGP said:
With hindsight, it's rather a surprise that a 'pass-mark' wasn't built in at the start. It is rather a big decision to make on a very low turn-out and with a very finely balanced opinion in the country.MarqueeMark said:
snippedTykejohnno said:
Panic in the remain camp I see - lolStark_Dawning said:
Absolutely. I didn't give a flying fig about what Cable said even when he was an MP. Nor did anyone else. Why are the Leavers suddenly having orgasms over his ramblings?JohnO said:snipped
And clearly, Remain were just so cocksure that they couldn't possibly lose it, why bother with a pass-mark....?
But I still don't know which way to vote!
But I have the feeling that the EU may be heading towards something of a Niagara Falls event, in which case a friendly country standing on the bank might be able to help all the others, somehow.
Sure, it's not enough for some people, but most are happy with a free trade block that does not seek judicial oversight of its members.
The issue, for me, is that we end up thrashing about attempting to forge the unforgeable. The Commonwealth will never be a major trading bloc. We would be no happier in NAFTA than in the EU.
At least if we remain fully paid-up members then people have something tangible on which to pin their resentment at the interconnectedness of the modern world. It's not perfect and it will continue to lead to a dysfunctional politics in some areas (I've given up hope that a Remain victory will settle the issue), but we're used to it and anyway, EFTA/EEA wouldn't really fix this.0 -
Indeed, I'd like to vote with a clear conscience! I'd like to debate it more, but I've got to work! Cheerio!AnneJGP said:
My heart is very keen on Leave - I am delighted with polls that show it won't be a walk-over for Remain - but I don't know what my mind makes of it yet.dugarbandier said:
I will if I can come to a decision about it, but I'm finding it difficult. Are you leaning one way or the other?AnneJGP said:
Oh, I will - it's too important to opt out of casting a vote one way or the other.dugarbandier said:
I probably won't turn out (with my postal vote) not because I don't care, but because I genuinely don't know.AnneJGP said:
Yes, I agree.rcs1000 said:
Irrespective of the result, I sincerely hope that the turnout level is decent. A decision of this magnitude voted on by just 45% of the population (and therefore less than 25% of voters having committed to the winning side), would be sad.AnneJGP said:
With hindsight, it's rather a surprise that a 'pass-mark' wasn't built in at the start. It is rather a big decision to make on a very low turn-out and with a very finely balanced opinion in the country.MarqueeMark said:
snipped.Tykejohnno said:
Panic in the remain camp I see - lolStark_Dawning said:
Absolutely. I didn't give a flying fig about what Cable said even when he was an MP. Nor did anyone else. Why are the Leavers suddenly having orgasms over his ramblings?JohnO said:snipped.
I like to have a good reason for doing things, and an emotional "Yah-boo" response isn't a good reason (not to me at any rate).0 -
My concern would be that a Brexit would precipitate the Niagara Falls event, with the disruption that implies. Some would welcome this, but - to my mind - such cascading destruction will bring only painAnneJGP said:
I see it the other way round. If we vote Leave and it's a mistake, well. it's only one small country out of the larger EU - no big deal to the wider world.viewcode said:
Vote REMAIN. If it turns out to be the wrong decision, the UK can LEAVE at a later date. But if you vote LEAVE and it turns out to be the wrong decision...you're stuck.AnneJGP said:
What you say in your first para is very true, and in fact I am very glad that it wasn't included.MarqueeMark said:
But whatever that passmark, it would have been widely seen as a way to rig the election - and so would have undone all the good work of offering it in the first place.AnneJGP said:
With hindsight, it's rather a surprise that a 'pass-mark' wasn't built in at the start. It is rather a big decision to make on a very low turn-out and with a very finely balanced opinion in the country.MarqueeMark said:
snippedTykejohnno said:
Panic in the remain camp I see - lolStark_Dawning said:
Absolutely. I didn't give a flying fig about what Cable said even when he was an MP. Nor did anyone else. Why are the Leavers suddenly having orgasms over his ramblings?JohnO said:snipped
And clearly, Remain were just so cocksure that they couldn't possibly lose it, why bother with a pass-mark....?
But I still don't know which way to vote!
But I have the feeling that the EU may be heading towards something of a Niagara Falls event, in which case a friendly country standing on the bank might be able to help all the others, somehow.
There was an art movement[1] before World War 1 that - giddy with the inventions of the age - celebrated destruction. Then WW1 happened and it wasn't so popular any more.
There is always a strain in human behavior that thinks everything that has been built should fall and from the ashes we'll build a better one. I understand the urge, but it's always the poor schmucks that pay for such idealism. As PJ O'Roarke once said, "it's one thing to burn down the outhouse, it's another to install plumbing"
[1] I think it was the Fauves or the Vorticists, but don't quote me.0 -
Brexit might very possibly precipitate the catastrophe, but it won't be the reason for it. The reason (IMHO) is that there's something very unsound at the heart of the EU project.viewcode said:
My concern would be that a Brexit would precipitate the Niagara Falls event, with the disruption that implies. Some would welcome this, but - to my mind - such cascading destruction will bring only painAnneJGP said:
I see it the other way round. If we vote Leave and it's a mistake, well. it's only one small country out of the larger EU - no big deal to the wider world.viewcode said:
Vote REMAIN. If it turns out to be the wrong decision, the UK can LEAVE at a later date. But if you vote LEAVE and it turns out to be the wrong decision...you're stuck.AnneJGP said:
What you say in your first para is very true, and in fact I am very glad that it wasn't included.MarqueeMark said:
snippedAnneJGP said:
snippedMarqueeMark said:
snippedTykejohnno said:
Panic in the remain camp I see - lolStark_Dawning said:
snippedJohnO said:snipped
But I still don't know which way to vote!
But I have the feeling that the EU may be heading towards something of a Niagara Falls event, in which case a friendly country standing on the bank might be able to help all the others, somehow.
There was an art movement[1] before World War 1 that - giddy with the inventions of the age - celebrated destruction. Then WW1 happened and it wasn't so popular any more.
There is always a strain in human behavior that thinks everything that has been built should fall and from the ashes we'll build a better one. I understand the urge, but it's always the poor schmucks that pay for such idealism. As PJ O'Roarke once said, "it's one thing to burn down the outhouse, it's another to install plumbing"
[1] I think it was the Fauves or the Vorticists, but don't quote me.
I don't welcome any catastrophe, I fear it. I wish the EU countries only the very best and hope that they can find their way through the difficulties.
But it seems to me that we've done our very best to persuade & help the EU to install plumbing and they are not interested.
0 -
O/T:
"Is there a London 2012 Olympics 'curse'?
It's been reported that 18 athletes who competed in the 2012 London Olympics have died since the Games. French-language media have begun talking about a "curse", but is there any justification for this?"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-360552380 -
Ah the joys of a clickbait headline. The article is clear that there is no justification at all.AndyJS said:O/T:
"Is there a London 2012 Olympics 'curse'?
It's been reported that 18 athletes who competed in the 2012 London Olympics have died since the Games. French-language media have begun talking about a "curse", but is there any justification for this?"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-360552380 -
Thresholds based on total turnout are dumb as they create the perverse incentive for suppliers of the status quo (here Remain) to abstain rather than vote as they believe in order to win due to turnout rather than winning. Also has the perverse effect that a bigger change win can cause change to lose.MarqueeMark said:
But whatever that passmark, it would have been widely seen as a way to rig the election - and so would have undone all the good work of offering it in the first place.AnneJGP said:
With hindsight, it's rather a surprise that a 'pass-mark' wasn't built in at the start. It is rather a big decision to make on a very low turn-out and with a very finely balanced opinion in the country.MarqueeMark said:
As the Remainers hang Cable out to dry - nothing to do with us, Guv... - his isolation will be complete when Cameron is asked "Prime Minister, is it true that If there is a 51/49 vote for Brexit on a 50 per cent turnout, Parliament isn't going to allow Brexit on that basis?" He will of course have to confirm that if Leave wins by one vote - we will Leave.Tykejohnno said:
Panic in the remain camp I see - lolStark_Dawning said:
Absolutely. I didn't give a flying fig about what Cable said even when he was an MP. Nor did anyone else. Why are the Leavers suddenly having orgasms over his ramblings?JohnO said:I don't give the proverbial flying thinggy what Cable or any other grasping LibDem toad thinks (hence the jubilation this time last May): Cameron couldn't be clearer that Leave means leave and that's to his credit, the more so since he will leave politics with a reputation ruined.
Which, in part, explains why I shall be patriotically be voting Remain. Now, above all now, with the existential threat that Corbyn and his gang of thugs, poses to this country, we need a mainstream, moderate centre right government to remain in office for at least the next 10 years until a viable left of centre alternative re-emerges from the dismal primeval slime that is presently 'Labour'.
It will also be worth digging down into the procedure after the Referendum result. Does Parliament even GET a vote on triggering Article 50? I presume that the Cabinet will have to approve it- but if any Cabinet member refused to implement the will of the voters, I would expect them to resign from the Cabinet.
And clearly, Remain were just so cocksure that they couldn't possibly lose it, why bother with a pass-mark....?
If you're going to have a threshold set it on the winners turnout alone, don't take into account the losers.
Eg Leave need a majority of votes consisting of say 30% of the electorate. Not a majority of votes of a 55% turnout.0 -
I found it interesting nonetheless.oxfordsimon said:
Ah the joys of a clickbait headline. The article is clear that there is no justification at all.AndyJS said:O/T:
"Is there a London 2012 Olympics 'curse'?
It's been reported that 18 athletes who competed in the 2012 London Olympics have died since the Games. French-language media have begun talking about a "curse", but is there any justification for this?"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-360552380 -
I was wondering about that. After about three instances, I noticed that the audience in the venue was laughing after humorous comments by the commentators. I wondered if they were being fed the commentary as an integral part of the process of being there. If not, it would surely be a bit off-putting and confusing for those in the audience without ear-phones.AndyJS said:O/T:
I wish the audience at The Crucible would stop laughing at Dennis Taylor's jokes which they're listening to through earphones.
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